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NO WAIT, WAIT WAIT! (1)

GreenJeepMan (398443) | more than 12 years ago | (#2109666)

Let Microsoft spend all that cash on their uber-marketing campain. Then pass the injuction. :-)

Different Stokes.. (1)

BaltoA (468156) | more than 12 years ago | (#2110599)

Doesn't Dan Gillmor look like the father from Different Strokes. Nice to see he's doing something useful after all these years.

Re:Different Stokes.. (1)

PinkStainlessTail (469560) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158735)

Conrad Bain. Or possibly his evil twin, Hank Bain. Last seen in the company of Guy Caballero...

He left out one reason NOT to stop it.... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2111248)

Some of us actually LIKE using it. Don't get me wrong, I can think of a half dozen better OS's than Windows, technically speaking. But as I am FORCED to use Windows for work during the day, Windows XP is -- bar none -- the best Windows OS. I've been using XP since beta 2, now at RC2. It's crashed perhaps 3 times, and I use it non-stop during the day. I rarely have to reboot it.

Posting anonymously so that I don't feel the WRATH. (Just pretend you see the +2 Karma points.)

Re:He left out one reason NOT to stop it.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158633)

just for the record: Ive been using windows me on my hone pc since the day the upgrade shipped. this was an upgrade from win98 2nd which was an upgrade from win98 that shipped on the pc. Since the installation of windows me not a single blue screen or "crash". My scanner works brilliantly as well as my digital camera, both usb. why would i want to install windows xp if i have the perfect home machine? I also have been running a beta version of IE 6 without any problems. In terms of what a home pc is expected to do, the one on my desk does, so I will not spend another cent on microsoft, dont need to. (I may download the official IE 6, someday, but it works fine)

Some of this is just stupid.... (5, Insightful)

Gingko (195226) | more than 12 years ago | (#2113077)

I don't want to come across as one of the "everything /. posts about MS is biased" crowd, so I won't comment on the decision to post this. However, some of the points in the article made me laugh.

Microsoft has added ''code-signing'' measures -- verification, supposedly, that downloads will be safe -- that could scare customers away from using software that competes with Microsoft's offerings.

How do you spell FUD? This is just silly. Microsoft have added code-signing (which I thought had been around a while) - which they could use to scare people away? How? I suppose they could do something by only allowing MS code to get signed or something, but that's pretty damn unlikely. The idea is that you can be certain where the code has come from, and then it is up to you to decide whether you trust it. Microsoft add *no* commentary on whether they think you should trust it or not, and to assume they will do is just paranoia.

Microsoft removed the Java environment from XP, thereby breaking thousands of Web sites that use Java. XP customers will face endless downloads to replace the functionality they'd come to expect.

While I'd rather the JVM was still in XP (but I hadn't noticed it was gone, will check that tonight when I get home), I don't feel any anger towards Microsoft for removing it. They have a competing platform, in .NET. Their attempts to do something with Java, rightly or wrongly, resulted in them getting their wrists slapped. No-one at MS that I've talked to really cares that much about Java. So why should they include it?

Microsoft is bundling all kinds of services into XP in ways that block competition, from photography software to video/audio playback. If customers want to use other vendors' products they'll have to jump through Microsoft-designed hoops

Slightly more questionable this. But I do like having ZIP folders natively as part of Explorer. But I've never had any problems with replacing functionality with the alternatives. I am an *informed* user. It is my business as a user to remain informed, and to make the choices that are right for me.

I could go on, and the article makes points about the OEM market that do sound pretty worrying to me. But all this article does is regurgitate some of the common fears and rumours surrounding XP, without *any* real and substantial justification of this strange injunction idea. I agree with authentication of XP, since you can control what is being posted, and I don't think piracy is good. I haven't had to use my Passport once, and I've been using XP since Beta 1 (as in never - have never even typed in the password).

I guess I just don't understand why people are making such a noise about fairly minor complaints. My cynical side is telling me that it's indicative of a jealousy of success, but I don't think that's always the case.

Henry

No injunction will cure the MS problem (1)

worldwideweber (116531) | more than 12 years ago | (#2113802)

It seems to me like people are continuing to attack the Microsoft problem from the supply side, as if there was no demand for the Microsoft products. There are a few problems as I can see with the current approach to fixing the MS problem:
(1) People use Microsoft because it is what they know, not because it is the only thing out on the market. The time investment required to learn to use software is a *real* investment. So, in my opinion, one of the keys to competing against Microsoft is to lower the cost (in time) of learning to use your product. In other words, make Linux "look and feel" exactly like Windows -- control panels and all -- and more people will probably switch. I know this is painful, but it works. Just ask Apple.
(2) People use Microsoft because it is the only thing that they have used. In other words, Windows comes pre-installed on most new hardware. However, demand for Linux-based machines is so small that even devotees like Dell have been forced to drop the offering. Perhaps if we accomplished (1) we might fare better in combatting (2).
(3) People use Microsoft Windows because other people use Microsoft Windows. This is known in economics as a network externality, and there is no way to battle against this with injunctions against future sales. Over 80% (perhaps more) of the world's computers currently run some windows-type OS, which has obvious effects on the number of software packages available and on people's propensity to buy. We would need a task force set up to sneak into people's homes to install other operating systems in order for injunctions to work.

Anyway, the point is that the nature of software encourages monopolies, so there is really no way to get rid of them (especially not with injunctions). No matter what product it is, it will feature high barriers to entry, network externalities, etc... the real question is whether the monopoly hurts consumers, not whether the monopoly should exist. And if it does hurt consumers, then how do we fix the problem. An injunction presumes the former, and does nothing toward the latter.

Re:No injunction will cure the MS problem (1)

WildBeast (189336) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158609)

People use Microsoft? I thought it was the other way around :)

uh, where have you been the last 10 years? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2114777)

I think that the day that we allow the government to keep a perfectly safe product from shipping

wow, didn't realize MS made a single perfectly safe product. let's see, there's the whole office suite, with macro viruses up the ass and sideways.
then there's the win9x series of OS'es, which put you online in the goatse.cx position, ready for action.

oh yeah, about outlook, i think it might be vunerable, but i forgot how exactly. i think i might have read it at Gibson's site..... something about viruses.

then there is crap like code red, designed to go after MS servers.....

MS has a really bad track record behind it. they have a large, intelligent computer geek base who hates them, as well as some of the crappiest security/coding in the business.

i think the last quality MS product i used was scandisk.exe for DOS. now that was a nice little program.

Re:uh, where have you been the last 10 years? (1)

WildBeast (189336) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158737)

Show me something unbreakable and I'll show you a perfectly safe and secure product.

The man is a fool or a liar (1, Troll)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2115620)

The article is ridiculous. What the guy who wrote it does not tell the readers is:
  • Sun got an injunction to stop Microsoft distributing Java
  • The 'key features' for which Passport is required are the instant messaging service. It is kind of hard to use an IM without some sort of identity registration and AOL is keeping AIM closed
  • Kodak want to install a driver that directs all pictures taken in an open format to Kodak's own web site. Microsoft has told them that it does not meet their requirements for drivers that ship with the O/S. Kodak is using FUD to try to get its own way.
  • Code signing has been used in Active-X and Java downloads for five years. Microsoft has never attempted to use the scheme to exclude software vendors and is not actually a CA for code signing certificates.
  • The idea of smart-tags was that anyone could set up an annotation service. Hooking up to Encarta as a default seemed a good idea.
  • The finding of the appeals court was that Microsoft was a monopoly, the tying claim in the windows case that Gilmor claims several times was affirmed was in fact reversed.

But who cares about facts when you are a silicon valley journalist and your readers will suck up anything thats anti-Microsoft even if it is utter lies.

The guy sounds like he wants to be the Rush Limbaugh of the tech sector. I guess next we will be hearing how Microsoft own the media and negative views of microsoft can never be heard.

Re:The man is a fool or a liar (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158485)

Sun got an injunction to stop Microsoft distributing Java

This is blatently false -- it is you who is the fool or the liar. Microsoft has a seven year licence for their existing version of Java [cnet.com] , and will continue to distribute it in the exact same way it was packaged in IE 4.01, IE 5.0, and IE 5.5 (downloaded as needed). Now stop spreading flamebait-ridden FUD.

Re:The man is a fool or a liar (2)

dpilot (134227) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158512)

> Sun got an injunction to stop Microsoft distributing Java

Ummmm, IIRC, the injunction was against distributing something and calling it Java that wasn't really Java. To me that means, that Microsoft certainly could have distributed a true Java that conformed to standards, and was indeed, "Java". But they chose not to conform to this particular standard that they didn't control. Don't forget that "Java" is a Registered Trademark, and while I may also believe that Sun should move Java to a standards body, for the moment they MUST aggressively defend a trademark, or lose it.

IANAL, but IMHO Microsoft could have distributed Java with WinXP. It's just Microsoft-Embrace-Extend-Extinguish-and-call-it "Java" that they can't.

Microsoft IS a monopoly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158517)

The appeals court reversed the sentence not the findings.

Re:The man is a fool or a liar (1)

DA_MAN_DA_MYTH (182037) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158631)

I guess next we will be hearing how Microsoft own the media and negative views of microsoft can never be heard.

uhhh... your joking right... MSNBC ring a bell? Oh sure if they really owned the media Microsoft would probably have to add to their name, AOL-TimeWarner.

Re:The man is a fool or a liar (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158653)

1. Sun got an injunction to temporarily halt MS shipping Java. The binding injunction does not deal with it, and Microsoft is happily shipping the Microsoft Virtual Machine to this day.
2. No real argument.
3. No real argument.
4. No real argument.
5. Anyone who pays Microsoft for the priviledge of hijacking a users machine and eyeballs, you mean.
6. You're confused. Co-mingling and tying were seperate claims, and if the claim had really been reversed by the Appeals Court, Microsoft most certainly would not have tried so hard to get a rehearing on it.

schibatzu! (-1, Offtopic)

schibatzu (462983) | more than 12 years ago | (#2116111)

first fucking hardcore post.

The Punishment Should be Made ASAP. (1, Redundant)

dnaumov (453672) | more than 12 years ago | (#2116112)

This has been said before and I'll say it again: Microsoft has been found guilty. They've been breaking the law and they are still breaking a law. This means that they should be punished.

I am not really sure whether this MS break-up would do any good, but I think I would rather see WinXP delayed by the US goverment and MS forced to alter WinXP. I'm all for WinXP, as long as it doesn't have Product Activation and Passport and as long as I can choose whether I want to install WMP 8, MSN Messenger, MSIE during the actual installation of the OS. Although it would be "OK" if I could actually remove all these components after the installation without breaking anything.

And don't start telling me that "Microsoft is a private company! Nobody has business telling MS how to make their products!" and all that BS. That statement would be correct if MS didn't break the law, which they did. At this point, the goverment HAS to do something to the way MS makes their products.

I just hope they just won't sit on their asses and will actually DO SOMETHING, before WinXP gets out of the door...It was scheduled to go RTM when ? On 27th of August ? Little time left...

A window into the state of the country (1)

M_Talon (135587) | more than 12 years ago | (#2120818)

What gives Microsoft and other companies like them their power isn't so much a monopoly as the fact that they take advantage of ignorance. Those of us who are somewhat knowledgable about computers can see the problems with Microsoft and their practices. However, the average Joe Blow doesn't know or care that there are better alternatives. They buy their computer and turn it on and use what they're given. They don't want to bother downloading or installing new stuff. They just want it to work.

Microsoft and AOL know this and use this to their advantage. Thus, as long as Microsoft is the defacto OS, they can use the ignorance to their advantage. The normal customer doesn't realize what they're missing, and in most cases they don't really care. The savvy ones can always find ways around MS's control, but we're not the majority of Windows users. Only when the government steps in will MS be called into check, since the populous on whole has demonstrated a particular apathy to the situation.

This whole issue with XP will demonstrate once and for all if our government really supports the people or not. If nothing is done and XP goes to market as is, it will be obvious that Congress is nothing more than pawns for the mega corporations like Microsoft and AOL Time Warner. This will be a sad day in America, for we will be witness to the beginnings of the coporate government culture so many writers have predicted.

You sir, are scarring the crap out of me! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158728)

How many times have 'well meaning' (TM) statements and mentalities such as what you just stated been the justification for the removal of freedoms and liberties of ALL people (or even their very lives), yet of course, in the name 'for the people'.

Only when the government steps in will MS be called into check, since the populous on whole has demonstrated a particular apathy to the situation.

This whole issue with XP will demonstrate once and for all if our government really supports the people or not.
Here, you can see how you blatently contradicted yourself. If the people care or don't care about something then how can I as the government justify forcing my views upon them? Am I going to put it under the guise of "I know how to better protect you from yourself, than you obviously know to do so yourself" That is the only justification, and if you are for that then by all means be my guest.... just don't be suprised when your choices and lifestyle are soon labled as dangerous and in need to erradication in order to protect you from yourself.

If the people (tm) really want something, then let them choose on their own, or you could take the logical approach and analyze the common problem. Whether from FUD, willfull ignorance or just plain stupidity the common problem is ignorance. Perhaps education is the answer? Perhaps taking a look at what and why the people choose what they like and dislike? If they want and like the ease of use and simplicity, then you can either give them those features or be a rampaging bull and force them to use another method.

Open source will work because it is superior. If your arguments and tactics must resort to lies, FUD and draconian strong arm policies then you obviously do not care or have faith in Open Source.... since it does not need or want such tactics.

Don't confuse this will blatant M$ and $un (aren't I hip!) tactics that restrict what their users can do... as that is indeed a problem. Just like with cars... if Ford had 90+ % of the car market, then it would be foolish and frivolous to try and stop them from releasing a new year model series based on their market share and that you simply do not like them. However, on a case by case basis, if they sold crap (doesn't work, crashes from design NOT pilot error, and is incompatable with existing roads, gas and driving liscenses) then people should then be given their money back (including taxes, shipping (yes that is done with cars) and other fees involved). A blanket strategy that stinks of whiney competetors (whether for profit or not) that are too incompetent to really compete only hurts you and me and Joe Blow.

Compete by making a better product, and save your communism for China and Russia... oh wait, they seem to be noticing that communism/socialism doesn't work... hmmmmmm.

yay Microsoft! (1)

Rackemup (160230) | more than 12 years ago | (#2121169)

They managed to escape the wrath of millions of users infected with yet another virus (SirCam or Code Red, it doesn't matter) even though it's clearly because of the numerous security holes found in MS products.. "it's not our fault people havn't applied patches 1-56, and feature packs 1-4, plus the "enhancement bonus mega super pack" that are clearly offered on our web site!" Now they've decided to include some new "features" in WinXP to make everyone's lives even better!

I can just picture a strategy meeting deep inside MS headquarters ....

Bill - "gentlemen, how can we rake in even more money for next year? I want to buy Russia and parts of Africa and turn them into a giant water-park for my kid"
Lackey Marketing Yes Man - "ummmm how about we start deciding what's best for users, make them call us every time they add new hardware to their system or try to reinstall the OS, automatically redirect their web links to places WE want them to go, and remove stuff that people have come to expect in an OS to make their lives even harder!"
Bill - "I like it!"

They're never going to learn that they can't have it all. Every time someone trys to win at their game they just change the rules and hope no one notices. I have hopes that XP will more stable and easier to use than previous versions of windows, but all these new "enahncements" are making me think twice.

The ideal Windows XP (5, Funny)

Mello (21860) | more than 12 years ago | (#2122725)

The Ideal Windows XP

No Internet Explorer It stifles competition. People can download the browser of their choice.

Java Plugin Loaded Windows XP should support Java out of the box so that people do not have to download it.

No MSN Icon on the Desktop Windows XP is already one Microsoft Product. They cannot use it to 'push' other products they produce.

AOL Icon on the Desktop AOL Time Warner should have a right to advertise on and windows desktop. After all they are not Microsoft.

Passport should be removed If people want a crappy free e-mail account or Instant Messaging they should refer to the above AOL Icon on their desktop.

Code-Signing is bad Microsoft should not be allowed to tell people what drivers/software have been proven to run under windows xp. They can find this out on their own.

Windows Activation Microsoft has no right to attempt to stop piracy. After all piracy much like death is inevetible. Any attempts to prolong life.. err I mean stop piracy should be stopped.

In conclusion I also feel that the word Microsoft should be removed from WindowsXP. After all it's just an operating system. Obviously the internet is much more important therefore WindowsXP should be labeled accordingly as AOL Time Warner Windows XP.

Microsoft Always seems to find... (2, Redundant)

cansecofan22 (62618) | more than 12 years ago | (#2125500)

a way to beat anything that is thrown at it. I dont know if we will be able to ever beat them by using the legal system. They have to many lawyers searching for ways to stall things so that by the time they do get into court, the item is already obsolete. Look at the whole Netscape IE thing. By the time the court ruled they were a monopoly Netscape had shrunk to about 15% market share. And now the appeal has gone there way (somewhat) and the next judgement will not be heard for years. The legal system is to slow. We will beat them by making a better product. They seem to find ways to shoot themselvs in the foot, look at all of the bugs in IIS. I think the legal system is a waste when it comes to microsoft. XP will ship on time, I would bet on it. But we will have a better desktop OS in about a year or two (would be sooner if KDE and GNOME could work things out) and we already have a better, more stable server OS.

Why stop them in court? (2)

quartz (64169) | more than 12 years ago | (#2125925)

Let them release their software and maybe, just maybe, people will finally see through Microsoft's PR smoke screen and refuse to buy it. Or if they get it in a bundle with their new computer, refuse to use it because of all the hoops Microsoft makes them jump through (what, this new OS I bought won't let me trade MP3s? Who the hell do these Microsoft people think they are?!). Maybe this is wishful thinking, but I still hope that at some point consumers themselves will get tired of being herded like cattle and start making their own decisions. Damn, *this* would be a good time for a x86 port of MacOS X...

Re:Why stop them in court? (2, Informative)

Ozric (30691) | more than 12 years ago | (#2120955)

That sounds fine, but it won't work. I hate to say it, but most people are really stupid. Have you ever talked to a layman about the problems with XP, and watched their eyes glaze over. No, people will buy PCs with XP and not know any better. They will all sign up on passport and that will be that. I fear that a law protecting the common public is in order here.

We as the Tech savy should take it up and inform as many people as we can about XP and the evil that it is. But again, the public at large will eat it up. And the Linux freaks might just make matters worse. Remember most people still don't understand what the DOJ case is about.

Code Signing is bad??? (1)

Bangback (471080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2127220)

The argument that code signing is bad is entirely specious. I don't know how many times I've messed up my own machines by installing beta hardware drivers. Fortunately, I have the knowledge to fix it. My clients on the other hand call me :)

All code signing does is warn the user (earlier versions actually blocked the install and I believe that can be set for enterprise use) of the potential consequences of their actions and recommend they check the vendors web site. Click install anyway and you're set to go. You can knock Windows compatibility testing all you want (slow, expensive, somewhat pointless come to mind) but when you see the garbage that many second and third tier hardware vendors produce without it its a long time coming.

Real must have gotten used to Microsoft pushing Media Player by this point -- I doubt Photoshop is quaking at a souped up Microsoft Paint. In former years, we called the arduous hoops competitors had to jump through to compete against these powerhouses software installation.

Dan Gillmor needs to stick with the key arguments (how online registration will be enforced, Java, Passport) and quit trying to pad his laundry list.

Re:Code Signing is bad??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158505)

Code signing can be bad, if only one entity controls the certificates or chooses who's applications will be blessed and who's will not. If anyone can freely create or aquire valid certificates and apply them to their work, and have something popup saying confirm you accept certificates from "x" once, that is okay, but if the only way to get a valid certificate is by and under the terms of one business entity, then this is prior restraint of trade, let alone illegal for a monopoly to do...

fp (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2127354)

That means fourth (or fifth) post.

Re:fp (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2131234)

MWAHAAHAH! That post was 6th!

Oh wait, that was my post! Doh!

Does business always have to be this way ? (1, Interesting)

Flabdabb Hubbard (264583) | more than 12 years ago | (#2127355)

I am sick of businesses cluttering up the legal system with their petty squabbles.

If there is an OS out there that is actually better than XP, let it fight it out in the marketplace. This is the USA after all.

I hate microsoft products, but I use them all the time. This is because at this moment in the development of the information revolution, they are the best tools for the job.

If there is a better alternative, I am sure American consumers will vote with their wallets as they always have done.

Surely the last thing we need is for the lawyers($$$) to get involved ?

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2111323)

I am sure American consumers will vote with their wallets as they always have done.

The greatest trick the Devil ever did was to convince everyone he didn't even exist. The greatest scam the corporations have pulled off was to convince the consumers that they could actually effect the rise or fall of a major company by "voting with their wallets".

The sad truth is that a) the better product doesn't necessarily win the competition and b) when a company grows big enough it doesn't need to pander its clients anymore and can dictate all the terms it wants instead (the largest companies can tell governments what to do!).

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (1)

Flabdabb Hubbard (264583) | more than 12 years ago | (#2122754)

I find it highly amusing that any pro-Microsoft view on slashdot is instantly marked as 'troll'. They really cannot handle alternative viewpoints here, can they ?

But on your point about the best product not winning, I think you need to look at it from another perspective. The product that succeeds in the marketplace is by definition the best product.

I think this is where slashdot readers go wrong. They are so full of indignant moral outrage, they cannot see the fact that for most Americans, Microsoft make the best software.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (5, Insightful)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158430)

The product that succeeds in the marketplace is by definition the best product.

Bullshit.

Take a look at the Billboard Hot 100. Would you seriously argue that this represents the best music available? Or even the best music being made today?

Do you think that best-selling books, or highest-rated TV shows, represent the best work in these media? You beleive that "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" is the best television show airing in the USA today, and that the lastest Danielle Steel and Jackie Collins efforts are amoung the best works of the written word?

Quality and popularity are completely independent variables.

Microsoft got where they are by riding IBM's coat-tails, by clever business tricks, and industrial strength marketing. They've managed to make the quality of their product almost as irrelevant as the quality of a pair of Nike's is to a well-branded teenager.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158573)

So if consumers have choice and they decide not to use it you feel you should be able to force them into doing what you like?

It sounds to me like you're saying "X is better than Y but you won't use X so we will make it very hard for you to get Y"

Sounds pretty 1984-ish to me.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158599)

They've managed to make the quality of their product almost as irrelevant as the quality of a pair of Nike's is to a well-branded teenager.

Nice, poignant, and true: the part about the nikes and the teens, I mean. I am less passionate about hating MS though, but you're partially correct there too.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (2, Insightful)

Satai (111172) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158629)

Take a look at the Billboard Hot 100. Would you seriously argue that this represents the best music available? Or even the best music being made today?

I agree completely - but at the same time, the distinction being drawn is between being the best product and being the best music. Quality and success are independent, yes, but the quality of a product - as a product - is measured in its success.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (1)

keesh (202812) | more than 12 years ago | (#2112094)

The whole problem is that Microsoft aren't fighting on grounds of which OS is best. They're doing everything possible to avoid that, since they'd lose. The court cases are to prevent Microsoft from using unfair tactics to reinforce their monopoly.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (3, Interesting)

MacGabhain (198888) | more than 12 years ago | (#2114449)

The case isn't really about trying to help another OS establish itself in the market. Indeed, Microsoft has every right to have a monopoly position in any particular market. What they don't have the right to do is to use that monopoly position to aquire market share in another market. While the fact remains that MS has a desktop OS monopoly, they have the ability to prevent other companies from fighting it out in the marketplace, and from their claims to manufactorers that DRDOS wouldn't work with Windows to their refusal to license Windows95 to IBM unless IBM stopped putting their own OS on machines as well (with the actual phrase "who else are you going to go to? We're the only game in town." being used in one communication submitted as evidence during the trial) to using preditory pricing on their Internet browser and then bundling it as an included application in their os to the current efforts to include everything from firewall software to video editing software, that (using their desktop monopoly to prevent other companies from fighting it out in the marketplace) is exactly what they've done and continue to do.

That's what the case is about, and why even an appeals court that has shown itself to be very pro-marketplace upheld the full verdict of guilty.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (1)

phalse phace (454635) | more than 12 years ago | (#2127541)

Sure we consumers could vote for/choose the better OS with our wallets, but then who's to say Microsoft won't just come along and buy up the competition (which they'll undoubtedly see as a threat) and dismantle it. Microsoft's got billions and billions of dollars at its disposal for such things.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158529)

> If there is an OS out there that is actually > better than XP, let it fight it out in the > marketplace. This is the USA after all. Just like the DVORAK keyboard has won out over the QWERTY [reason.com] keyboard.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (1)

pubjames (468013) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158570)

Why do lots of American's blindly believe that pure captialism will always create what's best for the consumer? Your thinking looks very crude from a European perspective. Open your eyes guys!

Companies (at least most of the really bigs ones) don't act purely in the interest of consumers. They act in the interest of profits. They will do whatever it takes to increase those profits, even if that means not acting in the interest of the consumer. That's why government intervention is sometimes necessary.

Capitalism is the crude motor of our society and economy, and as such it works very well. However, it isn't perfect, and sometimes intervention is necessary. As a European I am glad that the EU is beinging to take a hardline stance on mega-corps who don't act in the consumer's interest.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158739)

pubjames

You stay over in Europe with your little socialist governments and everything will be fine.

We know your government taking care of everything for you makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Re:Does business always have to be this way ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158681)

The Best doesnt always rise to the top-sometimes for good or bad! Take Van Gogh- Never sold a painting in his short life. Now you can pick up his images in any mall. Its Not always the consumer's vote. I believe the case is much more complicated than you wish it to be.

Tried and denied (3, Informative)

decesare (167184) | more than 12 years ago | (#2131425)

According to the Register in this article [theregister.co.uk] from yesterday, the DOJ tried to get the case expedited for the purpose of getting said injunction, but was denied by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit.

Good chance for Apple (1)

Tim_F (12524) | more than 12 years ago | (#2131675)

If Microsoft is going to get told not to ship WinXP... This would be the perfect chance for Apple to release osX on x86 hardware. Something to think about Apple...

Re:Good chance for Apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2115256)

That will never happen. It has been said multiple times here and elsewhere that there are no plans for OSX to run on x86 hardware.

Gee, if Microsoft can't sell Windows XP maybe SGI should release IRIX for x86. Something to think about SGI...

Re:Good chance for Apple (1)

gothamNY (473289) | more than 12 years ago | (#2127077)

I'm astounded that Apple hasn't gone down that path. With the name recognition of "Apple" and the developer pool for *BSD, as well as commercial giants like Microsoft and Adobe, OS-X on the PC could definately compete. However, one would have to think that those hundreds of millions of dollars Microsoft invested in Apple came at a high cost....

Re:Good chance for Apple (2, Troll)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158730)

I'm astounded that Apple hasn't gone down that path. With the name recognition of "Apple" and the developer pool for *BSD, as well as commercial giants like Microsoft and Adobe, OS-X on the PC could definately compete.

And who would buy it? What programs would run on it?

To be astounded at Apple's failure to act must be an exhausting condition. Apple has been sleeping at the wheel at least fifteen years. Even Steve Jobs couldn't think of anything to do with the company that was more innovative than pretty boxes designed for niche marketing to architects and hairdressers.

The idea is utterly crackpot. Jobs has already failled to sell Nextstep on x86 once and almost ten years has gone by since. The sole value in the Apple O/S is that the software manufacturer controls the hardware. So the whole system is guaranteed to work together.

As for the name recognition of Apple, don't be too sure that it has a good reputation outside the US. Resentment over Apple's past discriminatory pricing is still remembered. US Apple weenies might think the company the embodiment of good but I think of it as the company that wanted to charge me $3000 more for a computer because I lived in Europe.

Re:Good chance for Apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158602)

Indeed! MacOS x86 can succeed where OS/2, BeOS, QNX, and NextStep/OpenStep failed!

P.S. - quit hogging the crack-pipe!

What they need to realize ... (2, Flamebait)

jeffy124 (453342) | more than 12 years ago | (#2132496)

Mcorsoft insists they are adding features to their OS simply because it's what users want. They are correct by that statement. Personally, I like Windows Media Player and IE. But I only like WMP for some formats, I use other programs (QuickTime, RealPlayer, and WinAmp) for most multimedia clips.

What MS is failing to do is give te consumers ability to use a different program for in a lot of cases. Getting those other programs to be the default for the formats I want took hell.

Apple has already provided QuickTime within OS-X, so MS could make the argument 'Why isn't Apple being tortured?' Because QuickTime will allow another program to use it's formats. If MS would recognize that, then MS would still be the pet peeve they are, just not on the audio/video front.

He may have his reasons... (2, Troll)

SumDeusExMachina (318037) | more than 12 years ago | (#2134899)

...but personally, I could never support a court injunction preventing a company from shipping their product. Isn't this a little like Dmitri being arrested for the "innovation" that he did? I think that the day that we allow the government to keep a perfectly safe product from shipping is the day that we have finally undermined all our principles of capitalism and the free market.

Intervening in Microsoft's business practices, while it may give the suffering Microserfs some kind of satisfaction, won't really solve anything, and it certainly sets a bad precedent. Personally, I don't see what everyone's complaining about. I use Linux on a daily basis, and I certainly have seen nothing that would drive me back into the waiting arms of M$. We have a great operating system, what is everyone so scared of M$ for?

Re:He may have his reasons... (-1)

Raging Idiot (457985) | more than 12 years ago | (#2115022)

You see, it doesn't matter how great of an OS we have available to us, if no one out there ever hears about it it won't get used.

Well, they hear about it, but only in terms of it being, "a viral, cancerous plague upon society, forced upon us by the communistic hordes of the Open Source Movement." When the most respected businessman (i.e. the biggest baby/asshole on the block) in America says this, people tend to listen to him. I don't know why, if they had half a brain they would think for themselves, but people seem to enjoy being told what to think. Sad, but true.

Re:He may have his reasons... (3, Insightful)

Diego_27182818 (174390) | more than 12 years ago | (#2126365)

..but personally, I could never support a court injunction preventing a company from shipping their product. Isn't this a little like Dmitri being arrested for the "innovation" that he did? I think that the day that we allow the government to keep a perfectly safe product from shipping is the day that we have finally undermined all our principles of capitalism and the free market.

The only problem with that is that in the findings of fact, it was found that Microsoft had abused their monopoly position. While it is not illegal to be a monopoly. It is illegal to abuse that power. The time that it takes for a court case to go from findings, to sentance, through all the appeals is just too long. If Microsoft is allowed to continue business as normal until the appeal process is over, any punishment given will be worthless. The punishment will fit the situation as it exists now, and will not be appropriate for the new sitution.

YHBT. YHL. HAND (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2122137)

You obviously don't realise: SDEM is a troll. You've just been trolled. Asshole.

Re:YHBT. YHL. HAND (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2110597)

wtf? could you at least give it a little time before making an ass of them, you anonymous fuckwad?

Re:He may have his reasons... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2126490)

Hey SDEM, since when were you trolling without your +1? Moderators finally catch wind of you?

Re:He may have his reasons... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2119134)

naw. had it for like an hour, then got one comment modded down, and lost it. then there was some time that I didn't even care, so I lost more. I'm gettin' back there, though.

Re:He may have his reasons... (2, Interesting)

skeller (145333) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158668)

I think that the day that we allow the government to keep a perfectly safe product from shipping is the day that we have finally undermined all our principles of capitalism and the free market.

Here's the fundamental joke in capitalism: in order to have a free market, the government MUST interfere. It sounds incredibly moronic, but it's one of those funny little paradoxes like how sometimes we have to make war to have peace.

If you give companies complete and utter free reign over the market, they quickly do everything they can to squash all competition and then the free market goes away. You may think, "Well, those companies that do this are better than the competition and hence deserve control over the market." The problem with this reasoning is that once a monopoly is obtained, the company can leverage that power to keep competition down while offering an inferior product.

We have seen this happen in the U.S. during the latter portion of the 19th century, and for this reason anti-trust laws were invented. If the government doesn't stop monopolies from acting unfairly we end up with a situation that is unfair to consumers as well as competitors. A monopoly by one business is just as bad (if not worse) than a government controlled situation. The free market will destroy itself given enough time and no governmental interference.

Re:He may have his reasons... (1)

Avumede (111087) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158696)

Look, if you don't understand the case, please refrain from commenting about it. If you do understand the case, tell me why either anti-trust legislation is wrong, or why it doesn't apply to Microsoft.

Save everyone here some time... (3, Funny)

sg3000 (87992) | more than 12 years ago | (#2135054)

Just to save some time, I'm listing all the standard rebuttals that go with any Microsoft monopoly story. Please pick one:

( ) Oh, great, now every company is going to have to ask the government's permission before they add any new features

( ) Why does the government want to punish any company when they become successful? Sun, Netscape, Apple, Kodak, etc. are all just jealous of Microsoft's success

( ) If you don't like Windows, DON'T use it! It's not like their forcing you to use it

( ) I'm not a big Microsoft supporter or anything, but I like how they're giving me free stuff. Do we really want the government to force us to pay more for stuff Microsoft wants to give us for free?

( ) Oh, yeah, well Apple has a monopoly on PowerPC-based Macs as well. Try to buy a Mac without Apple's OS and see who REALLY has a monopoly

And to save time for the moderators, here are the mod points: Moderation totals: Troll=1, Flamebait=1, Redundant=1

On a completely unrelated note, remember the story that the LA Times reported back in 1998 where Microsoft "was secretly been planning a massive media campaign designed to influence state investigators by creating the appearance of a groundswell of public support for the company"? Every time I read the same tired arguments as above, I can't help but think about that story.

Re:Save everyone here some time... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158480)

I can save even more.

If your not a Linux supporter 100%, or dare refuted any anti-Ms fud just post anonymously as the hypocrits on /. will just nuke your karma for having the audacity to speak the truth.

If you want the good comments you have to read with no filters.

Shiv

Re:Save everyone here some time... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158511)

Have you even used XP or you just believe everything you read?

but Dan Gillmor is a cocksucking faggotron! (-1, Troll)

krog (25663) | more than 12 years ago | (#2135444)

fp

Re:but Dan Gillmor is a cocksucking faggotron! (-1)

Raging Idiot (457985) | more than 12 years ago | (#2124414)

And you would know this because....?

Don't tell me, let me guess, you met him at your regular "meeting" of the local faggotronamatic club. That, or you met him at the local glory hole hangout. Hell, maybe both?

Re:but Dan Gillmor is a cocksucking faggotron! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2126437)

Faggotron? I like that word.

Re:but Dan Gillmor is a cocksucking faggotron! (-1)

CmdrTaco on (468152) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158567)

Remember that episode where Faggotron tries to put the moves on Optimus Prime to weaken his masculinity and therefore his leadership of the Autobots? Almost worked until Faggotron transformed into a Dildo and Starscream accidently used a Trans-freeze ray on him so he couldn't change back.

I dunno... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2136937)

Somehow raw sockets come to mind.

the biggest reason (0)

philipm (106664) | more than 12 years ago | (#2138221)

but the biggest reason by far is that he is trying to short some microsoft stock.

Maybe what really happened is that when all the dot coms melted all the SV people tried shorting microsoft and are pissed off it didn't work. :)

Turd post for Marge Schott (-1)

fp_troll_bitch (320424) | more than 12 years ago | (#2139732)

The object of my affection.

Re:Turd post for Marge Schott (-1)

Raging Idiot (457985) | more than 12 years ago | (#2116093)

That is one skanky fucking crack-whore. She is the nastiest piece of ass on the fucking planet.

But, in your defense, she has been known to go down on everything from a cat to a fire-hose to a horse, to a dead homeless guy, so maybe that's the best you can do.

Re:Turd post for Marge Schott (-1)

CmdrTaco on (468152) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158588)

I think he meant Marge Simpson.Geeks don't fantasize about real women. It's usually about cartoon, anime, or super-power women (Catwoman, Witchblade, Wonderwoman, etc.). Dana Scully is the only exception.

no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2139734)

hate MS all you want, that's fine. but don't you think its ridiculous that the govt. would step in to stop blocking of code! I mean, half the time I hear the argument that the "code" doesn't exist, its just 0's and 1's in the memory of a machine, a certain state, and that's why we shouldn't have software patents etc...but yet you want to legally block the spread of code?? You didn't want that when it was DeCSS did you, then code was free speech! Look, people have choices, they could choose to run Linux. Heck, its FREE! No money. Free products that are superior tend to take off in this economy. By getting an injunction, it seems FSF is just "giving up" Saying ,we tried! Now let the govt stop them for us. Come on guys, we can do better. Let MS ship the code for the love of God!

Re:no! (1)

bribecka (176328) | more than 12 years ago | (#2131676)

but don't you think its ridiculous that the govt. would step in to stop blocking of code!

I think they should have stepped in to block the release of Quake 2 without deathmatch maps. Now *that* was a travesty.

can you imagine.. (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2141638)

a beowulf cluster of these?

Re:can you imagine.. (1)

Theodore Logan (139352) | more than 12 years ago | (#2111093)

uhmm.. no, actually I can't. A beowulf cluster does, by definition, run Linux or some other free (as in beer) OS. WinXP isn't free.

I can't believe there are beowulf trolls that don't even know what they're talking about. I take that back, I can. But you should really have a look at the beowulf faq [dnaco.net] anyway.

Re:can you imagine.. (-1)

CmdrTaco on (468152) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158608)

Why go to some 3rd party FAQ? Get the FAQ from the horses mouth here [comp-u-geek.net] .

Blaming Microsoft for Removal of Java (5, Insightful)

KingAdrock (115014) | more than 12 years ago | (#2141914)

Microsoft removed the Java environment from XP, thereby breaking thousands of Web sites that use Java. XP customers will face endless downloads to replace the functionality they'd come to expect.

I may be wrong, (Trust me it wouldn't be the first time) but isn't the removal of Java from XP stem from a court settlement between Sun and Microsoft. I don't think the settlement explicetly made Microsoft remove it from the operating system, but instead didn't allow Microsoft to develop a Java compiler or products anymore. Why should they be expected in include the VM if they don't have any control over it.

It will still be available for download. So while it may temporarily render sites using Java useless -- they aren't broken forever.

Bundling/not bundling, wtf do you want! (1, Troll)

Otis_INF (130595) | more than 12 years ago | (#2110411)

When they bundled their own technology with their OS, like IE, Windows Media Player, etc, everybody and their brother was crying that this was foul play and they shouldn't bundle their own products with the OS.

MS has listened to those people and has removed their OWN JVM from the OS. Fair deal, right?

I guess not. Now there is NO JVM bundled with the OS and it's again foul play? What do you want then? bundling/integration or unbundling/not integration?

Java is not their tech. They can include whatever they please with their OS. Last time I checked, Sun isn't shipping their Solaris product with IE either.

Re:Blaming Microsoft for Removal of Java (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2113206)

You're wrong.

MS can still ship Java. They can still use Java.

They just can't take Java, make changes to it so that it's incompatable with real Java, and continue to call it Java.

Re:Blaming Microsoft for Removal of Java (2, Interesting)

why-is-it (318134) | more than 12 years ago | (#2114450)

"Why should they be expected in include the VM if they don't have any control over it."

So by extension, why should they include anything in the OS if they don't have control over it?

I am sure they would love to have proprietary versions of TCP/IP, DNS, and SMTP, but at the moment they do not have any control over these things, and yet the OS still supports it.

Why should a JVM be any different?

you are :) (3, Insightful)

4n0nym0u$ C0w4rd (471100) | more than 12 years ago | (#2115651)

Sun simply told Microsoft that Java would NOT be "embraced and extended", that their Java tools had to be compatible with the standards Sun set. Microsoft got pissy about not being able to make an MS Java that was only compatible with windows (forcing companies to block out other OSs or code more because most internet users are windows Users) and decided to come up with C# to kill Java. Suprised that all the Java programmers did not instantly flock to C# (after all it IS made by MS) they decided to take all Java support out of XP and force a large download for users that want Java. MS hopes this move will for webpage designers to use MS langauges rather than Java, thus accomplishign the same objective they had before....stop other OS users from using the web effectively.

Re:you are :) (2, Troll)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158542)

Sun simply told Microsoft that Java would NOT be "embraced and extended", that their Java tools had to be compatible with the standards Sun set.

The "standards" that Sun wouldn't submit to a standard board because they wanted to retain the right to change things behind the scenes and simultaneously come out with the new Sun version and the new version of the "standard" (which of course meant that Sun was guaranteed to be in the lead...at least hypothetically. Of course in reality the Microsoft JVM was superior).

...Suprised that all the Java programmers did not instantly flock to C#...they decided to take all Java support out of XP and force a large download for users that want Java..

Cutting analysis, especially given that C# is not available in a released product yet and is only available for those willing to beta test Visual Studio.Net. In any case most Java programmers can easily program in C# (and vice versa): It's just another tool for programmers to use. It's especially funny in that Sun has been pushing users to do a "large download" and download the "superior" Sun JVM for ages.

Java is hardly a standard and instead it's Sun's way of strangeholding the marketplace to try to sell more Solaris boxes. Of course in reality it has hardly turned out in their favour (I recently got a copy of JumpStart: What a POS! Does Sun not spend any money on R&D? Seriously this hodge-podge of poorly performing, quirky, completely non-integrated tools is an absolute travesty and is laughable compared to something like Visual Studio.net). The only guilty party for Java's removal is Sun and their injunction which had the specific intention of crippling Microsoft in the Java arena to allow Sun to become the "standard".

Re:Blaming Microsoft for Removal of Java (2)

MacGabhain (198888) | more than 12 years ago | (#2124415)

While I agree with the article's author that Microsoft's motives are specifically to damage Java's hold on the market, I agree with your underlying point that they have every right *not* to include anything they don't care to include. I think I remember correctly, however, that the Sun-Microsoft settlement only required that any MS Java runtime system conform to the definitions Sun has set out, something MS's early attempts did not do. MS has chosen to produce such a Java Runtime for the last couple years, and has now chosen to stop doing so.

While this is, of course, designed to harm Java, I rather agree with the position of... umm... maybe it was Stallman, but I forget exactly, that this could actually be good for Java if machine makers take the very reasonable step of installing Sun's JRE for Windows with all of their units. It would be a nice value add (like including all of the other stuff that's often included on PCs these days) that would cost nothing and actually be more useful to their customers than the 3 different photo-album programs typically included on a new retail machine. This way, every shipment of XP would either a: come with a standardized Java runtime from Sun or b: be purchaced by someone comfortable installing or upgrading an OS, who won't mind downloading it herself.

Re:Blaming Microsoft for Removal of Java (3, Interesting)

baptiste (256004) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158548)

they have every right *not* to include anything they don't care to include

Okay - and then doesn't that mean Compaq has every right to NOT include MSN icons on its desktops and only AOLs? They tried. But Microsoft saw a threat and stomped on it with a last minute licensing change requiring no online service icons on the desktop or MSN had to be included if ANY other service's icon was.. See how unfair it can be when you're NOT the Monopoly? I say shut them down - its sucks, yes and it gives you a dirty feeling, but he's right - Microsoft only understands the use of force and its the only way to get them to behave.

Re:Blaming Microsoft for Removal of Java (1)

JamesOfTheDesert (188356) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158617)

Okay - and then doesn't that mean Compaq has every right to NOT include MSN icons on its desktops and only AOLs?

Sure. Compaq can do what it wants with CompaqOS and the CompaqOS desktop.

Oh, wait! Compaq doesn't *own* an OS. I guess that's why they don't have the rights of *ownership*!

Consider: MSFT doesn't tell Compaq what soundcard to include.

Java isn't gone anyway... (2, Informative)

cqnn (137172) | more than 12 years ago | (#2127565)

Java may not be in the shipping version (beta)
of Windows XP. But it is one of the first
choices of things to install for IE from
Windows Update.

Also, as I understand, if IE detects a page that
has Java, and has not already installed support,
it can prompt the user to install it at that time.
Just like support for flash, shockwave, and other
plugin technologies works. So I don't see this
breaking Java functionality for the Web.

Where this might have an impact is for Java
applications that are written in-house, or
to be run without the browser. In which case
the user is probably better off trying to install
the latest compliant Java engine anyway.

Gawd, this guy is stupid (2)

Otis_INF (130595) | more than 12 years ago | (#2141940)

First:
Microsoft removed the Java environment from XP, thereby breaking thousands of Web sites that use Java. XP customers will face endless downloads to replace the functionality they'd come to expect.

Then: Microsoft is bundling all kinds of services into XP in ways that block competition, from photography software to video/audio playback. If customers want to use other vendors' products they'll have to jump through Microsoft-designed hoops.

I see a contradiction here: first they remove some tech 'people have come to expect', which hurts the customer and then second: Microsoft bundles all kinds of tech, which seems to hurt the competition. So which one will it be, Dan: 1) remove it or 2) include it.

Or, Dan, are you afraid XP will be so rocksolid, users will never be asking for another Desktop OS again, not from any vendor/coder-group ?

Hardware key? (2)

demaria (122790) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158475)

With all this licensing based on hardware stuff in XP, I am left to wonder, why not just go to a hardware based key that, in the event of it being broken, can be flash upgraded as well? Plug it into the USB/serial/paralled port. Other companies have been doing this for quite some time.

Re:Hardware key=dongle+dongle+dongle+dongle+dongle (1)

beanerspace (443710) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158677)

Youre post reminds me of the 'Hardware' dongles various software companies used in the late '80s and early '90s. I recall 12Tone's [cakewalk.com] G.H. at the '89 NAMM show joking ... "I can imagine a computer with several of these dongles hanging off ... and entire new industry would be spawned to accomodate and support multipe-dongle installations ... offices and cubicles would have to be redesigned to allow for long strings of hardware keys."

Everyone laughed except C.B. of Voyetra [synthmuseum.com] .

Re:Hardware key=dongle+dongle+dongle+dongle+dongle (1)

demaria (122790) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158701)

Yep. Those are exactly what I'm talking about. I've seen them on some high cost software.

Not that I like them. :)

Re:Hardware key=dongle+dongle+dongle+dongle+dongle (1)

Bob McCown (8411) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158733)

The way I get around creeping dongleitis, is to have a 3 foot paralell extension cable attached to the back of my box. The dongles attach to the end of the cable, which is stuffed out of the way...

The market will decide (2, Insightful)

LocalYokel (85558) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158518)

For the most part, I'm an M$ whore. I actually paid money to be in the XP preview program, and I must say this $10 appraising fee was well spent -- there's no way I could spend even $100 for an "upgrade" to this piece of crap.

The minor enhancements they made to the shell as it currently works are nice, but I could do without the more dramatic changes.

What is this guy smoking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2158535)

I'm tired of reading this trash. The world seems to be full of ignorant journalists and lawyers who love to stick their noses into areas where they really don't have a clue. Here goes: 1. Integrated Internet Explorer Haven't we beat this one to death... In today's internet-crazy world the integration of Internet Explorer certainly doesn't harm the consumer. If I wanted to run Netscape or any of the other mickey-mouse browsers out there I'd just install them, nothing is stopping me. Oh.. and I switched away from Netscape years ago after downloading one-too many truncated files (does anyone remember that bug?). 2. AOL and it's Icon I have a wall lined with useless AOL CDs, I certainly don't want the bloat-ware integrated into my OS. As for their icon on the desktop who cares, the desktop cleanup wizard will sweep it up within a few days anyway :-) 3. Java... I don't get it... I thought that bundling was a bad thing, now it seems that un-bundling is also a crime. If Sun weren't such jerks about the whole Java thing then maybe it would still be integrated. 4. 'Force users to sign up for passport' Garbage!, if you don't want to use Passport then don't!. Instant messaging is kinda useless without some kind of identification, and if you don't like Microsoft's offering then use another one, there are plenty out there!. 5. Jump through hoops! Is running Setup.exe now known as a hoop!. If I don't like Microsoft's integrated photography or video/audio playback software then I simply install something else, and it works very well!. Oh.. and the integrated support for photos in XP is VERY nice!. Now I won't have my mother on the phone once a week asking how to print three 4x6 photos on a single sheet of A4... very simple, very elegant. 6. Code signing... This one is true garbage. It's been out there for years, and when it comes to device drivers maybe manufacturers will start producing signed, tested drivers that don't hose the system until version 9.99 comes out. After all, it's MS that gets blamed for unstable software each time that Windows crashes... and in my experience it's crappy third-party device drivers that are responsible most of the time!. 7. Unauthorized copying of software... Ok... this one I don't quite get. Why on earth shouldn't a software company be entitled to protect their revenue stream. Any why would this be a good reason to prevent Windows XP shipping? XP is a very nice system. It shows in many places that MS has listened and learned over the years. I'm looking forward to October 25th, and I hope that ignorance and greedy lawyers don't get in the way of this product getting out the door.

What does XP stand for? (1, Offtopic)

smartin (942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158551)

The obvious guess would be eXtreme Prejudice.
Any others?

The Kitty Kelly Tactic (5, Interesting)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158630)

A while back Kitty Kelley wrote a biography of Nancy Reagan creating a new litterary genre, the nasty-ography. The people in the media who thought Reagan a complete fool loved the book and it pretty much reversed the growing Reagan myth for a while until the dope's Altzheimer's disease became public.

Then Kelley tried to repeat the trick and wrote a book about the UK Royal familly, oh dear. The problem was not that people did not want to hear bad things about the Royals, quite the contrary, after the soap opera divorces, familly feuds etc. the monarchy had become very unpopular. But Kelley's book made a whole series of unsubstantiated tabloid rumours that the Buck house PR team could explode with little difficulty. At the very time when the country was sickened by their reaction to Princess Diana's death the Kitty Kelley nasty-ography brought them undeserved sympathy.

I think that the Gillmore article and others like it are likely to cause the same reaction. It is very noticable that the Slashcrew have got seriously out of sync with the readership on this one. Most of the posts are saying 'why give us this ill informed made up crap?".

After all if we are going to start attacking MSFT on the basis of made up stuff it might as well be good made up stuff.

wrong direction (1)

vu13 (462742) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158685)

Wait a minute, code is speech. We can't censor it and then complain that hackers like Dmitry are being censored.

In theory, their is nothing wrong with Windows XP that the market couldn't fix, the problem is that the company Microsoft is illegal. Instead of punishing consumers, we should punish Microsoft and break it up into Baby Bills. This way the market can fix it for us.

I propose breaking MS into 3 operating system companies, 1 content company, 2 internet access companies, 2 productivity application companies and a game company.

I'd suspect we'd start to see some consumer choice.

Here's an idea! (4, Flamebait)

epukinsk (120536) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158712)

So Mr. Gates doesn't like these structural remedies? Perhaps he'd prefer a Mitnick-style behavioral remedy.

Gates and his descendant Mr. Ballamer are never again to run a technology company in any way, shape, or form. No CEO, no "head technologist", no shareholder, no V.P., no nothing. They've demonstrated that at the helm of a technology company they have no restraint. They will break the law every time.

Mitnick can't use a computer, they can't run a business. Fair is fair.

-Erik

taken as a whole it's wrong (1)

BroadbandBradley (237267) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158723)

removing Java:

* Microsoft removed the Java environment from XP, thereby breaking thousands of Web sites that use Java. XP customers will face endless downloads to replace the functionality they'd come to expect. and passport to get updates:

* Microsoft will force XP users to sign up for its Passport authentication system if they want to use key XP features. This is a dagger aimed at all kinds of other businesses, and despite Microsoft's claims to the contrary it represents a potentially massive threat to customers' security and privacy.
and MS Signed software

* Microsoft has added ''code-signing'' measures -- verification, supposedly, that downloads will be safe -- that could scare customers away from using software that competes with Microsoft's offerings.
most folks don't have broadband, they have to download for a LONG TIME to get java, furthermore, will they be able to without a passport? How about being able to verify a MS Signed package without a Passport? If I write a great JAVA VM in my spare time (well not me but somebody could) how much would it cost for MS's stamp of good/safe software ? Who controls where IE goes for JAVA? MS does. get a new pc, open website with JAVA in it, Visit Windows Update to have your system registered, passport assigned, and Hardware/software scanned and indexed by the evil empire!!!!!

It's all cheese (1)

rambot (466616) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158725)

I just got on a machine yesterday with XP for the first time. It appears to be all about more pretty pictures and less usable powerful functionality. I guess I am being a little cynical..but I just feel ill when a little dog appears wagging his tail when I am trying to locate files.

Thanks for dumbing me down. AGAIN [gratefuldad.com] . When will they learn? More importantly.. when will WE LEARN!

The best software will always be developed for dominant OS. Therein lies the conundrum.

Sun reaps what they sow (2)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 12 years ago | (#2158736)

Taken from an article [cnet.com] strangely linked to by someone trying to criticize Microsoft's removal of Java:

In a news conference, Sun executives said they were able to use Microsoft as a distribution tool to get Java into the hands of users when the software was in its infancy. Then Sun's lawsuit froze Microsoft's plans to modify Java for its own benefit, and Java became established in the meantime.

"I don't think we gave away anything. They're writing a check for $20 million. They're continuing to distribute an outdated version of the technology, but they can't use it for .Net," Sueltz said. "All in all, it's a very good day for Sun."

Sounds like Sun got exactly what they wanted, and it looks like just another attack on Microsoft because they're successful. They shouldn't include IE and should force users to do a big download to get a browser, but at the same time they should include Java (despite being restricted to using an ancient version, a "right" which Sun can revoke at any time) to save the user from doing a download. Wahhh!

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