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Conectiva Linux 7.0 is Out

michael posted about 13 years ago | from the penguins-in-the-rain-forest dept.

Linux 116

rsd writes: "Conectiva Linux 7.0 is out. Here is the original announcement. And here is the babelfish translation. They are already shipping Portuguese box and will start the english soon. However the CDs (iso for what matter) are available in english already. Their main ftp server is overcrowded. Hoever, Rik VanRiel provided us with a really fast server. I will not describe every feature on it but the main change is the Synaptic tool, which in my opinion is the best APT frontend ever written."

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Synaptic vs. GnoRPM - a nice touch in this distro. (3, Informative)

hillct (230132) | about 13 years ago | (#2110225)

Well, it's always nice to see an alternative to over-used under-developed tools. Synaptic seems stable and reliable, although I've only used it for about 10 minutes, but it looks vary solid. Well done gentlemen! (developers)

This distro is new to me. Does anyone have usage/popularity numbers for it?

Re:Synaptic vs. GnoRPM - a nice touch in this dist (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2146903)

Does it matter who else likes it? Its Linux, it does what you want it to do just like the rest. If you like it, use it. That's really the point of Free Software my friend.

If you just want something popular, use Red Hat or Windows.

Version Inflation (1)

feed_me_cereal (452042) | about 13 years ago | (#2120171)

Why does everything get up to 7.0 this fast? What are we? Microsoft?

Re:Version Inflation (1)

HR Pufnstuf (18095) | about 13 years ago | (#2152825)

Going from from 6 to 7 is not really compareable to going from 98 to 2000.

Money (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2123582)

Anybody ever heard the Gnome guy (forgot his name) talk about how much more expensive MS is for Mexicans (schools, small business...) and therefore how much more important it is for them to have a real alternative? I guess the same goes for Brazil. This make this distro somewhat more important to me than "just another" English one.

Face-scan technology selling in China (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2123584)

_WASHINGTON, Aug. 9 (UPI) -- The company that supplied controversial face recognition technology to scan people on the streets of Tampa, Fla., is working with commercial partners in China to supply the same technology there.

However it won't work, because they all look alike.

oiuahtadg (-1, Redundant)

codehero (198483) | about 13 years ago | (#2124526)

you fuckin slashdot people make me sick with your linux bullshit and shit for brains cmments I hate you so much that I want to kill you and destroy your brains and everything you cocksuckers I hope you all die horrible deaths when you learn that you are all communist GLP whores by nature I want to see you all rot in hell you fuckin bastard motherfucking loser rot shit people type things and I hope you die stupid motherfuckers. oh yeah and go to hell you fuckin pieces of shit linux users

Translation (by human) (4, Informative)

pdcull (469825) | about 13 years ago | (#2124637)

Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 14:48 Conectiva launches version 7.0 in Portuguese.

The product substitutes version 6.0 launched at the end of 2000, and will be presented in two editions: Conectiva Linux 7.0 and Conectiva Linux 7.0 Professional Server.

São Paulo, July 2001 - The new version of the open source operation system that is most used in all of the world, will be available starting at the next Fernsaoft (São Paulo computer show), which will be from the 30th of July to the 4th of August. The product substitutes version 6.0, launched at the end of 2000, and will be presented in two editions: Conectiva Linux 7.0 and Conectiva Linux 7.0 Professional Server.

The biggest new features of this version are the tools to facilitate the use of the RPM automatic upgrade utility, called APT. Thanks to resources which are exclusive to Conectiva, it is possible for each user to install only the packages which are suitable for them.

Another modification which Conectiva prepared for CL 7.0 was the extinction of the boot (startup) disks, seeings that practically all modern machines are able to accomplish this process directly from the CD-ROM. But, if necessary, the user can create their own boot disk with the utilities and images on the five CDs which are part of the product. They also bring a program to help in the creation of the diskette and facilitate the installation in machines with the Windows operating system.

According to the company's new strategy, which intends to show that Linux is now profession and has won a large part of the market, the design of the boxes has also changed. CL version 7.0 has a more simple appearance than the earlier versions, and maintains the predominance of the colour blue, whereas the Professional Server version also follows this 'clean' look, with an emphasis on the colour white.

Among the advantages of the new version, it is worth also mentioning the support and documentation, which is even more complete, and directed towards the user. Conectiva Linux version 7.0 documentation is composed of the "User's Guide" and "Quick Installation Guide", whereas the Professional Server version has the "Quick Installation Guide", the "Conectiva Linux Server Guide" and the new book "Understanding Conectiva Linux", which presents information about the operating system through pratical examples. In addition to the manuals, the package is composed of five CDs, one for installation (operating system and applications), one of extra applications, two with the source code of the first two CDs and one containing StarOffice for Linux in various languages.

To provide support, the user will have coupons in the packet which give the right to two hours of telephone support and three months via email. If the validity of the supports expires, Conectiva also offers extended support, in both versions, so that the user can adquire more time to resolve their questions.

Technical Characteristics

In this version, the automatic upgrade tool for RPM packages, the APT, has a system which is much more stable and better integrated with tools such as Synaptic. This, in turn, is a graphical interface created to simplify the remote installation and upgrading of programs through APT, without needing to resort to the command line. "To meet these objectives, various packages were rebuilt, being subdivided into smaller packages, for the purpose of economizing disk space and making them more flexible", explains Alfredo Kojima, creator of Synaptic and the WindowMaker graphical interface, and a member of the Conective development team.

In Conectiva Linux 7.0 it is worth mentioning as well the inclusion of the Kernel 2.4, which signficiantly improves the performance of the version, principally on servers which run large applications and multiprocessing systems. This performance also helps a lot in the utilitization of Linux in the corporate environment. In addition to the Kernel 2.4, you can also choose the 2.2.19 Kernel.

XFree86, a Linux graphical interface server, is now in edition 4.03, which has new drivers for SiS and S3 cards, both very popular in Brazil. This upgrade resolves stability and performance problems which previously existed. In addition, it has 3D image support and anti-aliasing, a resource which smooths-out fonts on the screen for easier reading.

The standard graphical interface for Conectiva Linux 7.0 is KDE 2.12, which now has various upgrades and improvements in terms of security. KDE has integrated a series of applications, such as the e-mail reader KMail, the dialer KPPP, the browser and file manager Konqueror and the office suite KOffice, as well as other small tools.

As always, another advantage of the Linux operating system, which is repeated in this new version, is the better utilization of the hardware, make available constant investments in upgrades. In Conectiva Linux 7.0 there are four installation profiles available: minimum, standard, complete and personalised, each with a package of pre-determined applications. The standard installation occupies an average of only 510 MB, which is little when compared to other Open Source distributions. Also it is worth saying that the whole installation process has interactive help available.

Conectiva Linux 7.0 will be available for sale at the Fenasoft (computer show), at suggested prices of R$ 88,00 (around US $36) (Conectiva Linux 7.0) and R$ 225,00 (around US $105) (Conectiva Linux 7.0 - Professional Server).

When will it ever stop (0)

jlemmerer (242376) | about 13 years ago | (#2124724)

When will it ever stop?
I think that there are already enough Linux distros? Nowadays, most distributions are derived for either RedHat (my personal favourite, SuSE or Debian. When we strip it of the admin and installation GUI, all are pretty much the same. Why a new one? I think that most of the /. readers prefer getting their tools as up-to date source, so the packages that are included in a distribution shouldn't me sooo important. I just say: Better develop new useful proggies that wasting time on building a distribution.

All your new distibutions are belong to us

Re:When will it ever stop (0)

jagne (74556) | about 13 years ago | (#2152241)

Why a new one?

because Conectiva is aimed to the brazilian and latinamerican market, with translations to portuguese, spanish and the usual english language.

I just say: Better develop new useful proggies that wasting time on building a distribution.

Conectiva does both things, as APT-GET (APT with RPM packages), the VESA driver and the named Synaptic demonstrates so. Also, Rik van Riel colaborates extensively to the kernel, acme does his part with some drivers, and the list goes on.

jaime g. wong
"linux is only free if your time has no value"
- jamie zawinski

Don't say this (1)

Retype (152669) | about 13 years ago | (#2152884)

Here in Brazil we doesn't have any linux distros, and even red hat doesn't have a good set of drivers and fonts for portuguese, so this distro was a very good thing for Brazilian people. Maybe you don't even know that our portuguese is not the same that is used in Portugal. Just one example: "bicha" in portugal means a queue and in brazil it means gay or fag. See, we needed a linux distro that could be used here without knowing english. And there are a lot of things that are so diferent that we needed Conectiva
And the guy that made WindowMaker is from Brazil, and works there, he made APT to work with rpms and also made the GUI.

Brazil and Linux (1)

gfactor (317052) | about 13 years ago | (#2125231)

I was present at the World Social Forum [] in Brazil at the beginning of this year. There I noticed something interesting being done by the worker-party (PT) controlled state of Rio Grande do Sul with linux.

They basically have a whole pro-linux initiative, which mostly came from geeks at the govt's IT department. They are creating a press, to make linux docs available in portuguese, and are shifting as much as possible away from proprietary software to open-source software. Their rhetoric is very public service oriented, making claims of spending money upgrading proprietary licenses from previous adminstrations, money which could have been used to deliver public services. Furthermore, they see open source as a way of achieving development without "northern" control. Their state development bank has begun curtailing loans used for purchasing proprietary software when open source alternatives are available, and give pointers to such alternatives. Its a shame that it takes a dynamic left-wing government to take reasonable steps such as this and i hope more start doing the same.

They actually TRAIN people (1)

Joe_Pineapples (452227) | about 13 years ago | (#2129089)

I see THAT as a major plus, it doesn't only help you get into the linux world BUT it solves one of the biggest poblems with selling corporates a full-linux answer --> CERTIFIED PEOPLE.

Might not mean much in real life, but companies do feel more confident.

I mean, u get a regular linux dude: "I'm gonna b using this and that dists plus those packs plus a little sumthin' I got done last weekend" ... linux works like a dream, company saves money, dude leaves company.

Where do they get a guy that knows, and can prove it, all those bits?

Joe - MCSE+I, MCDBA, MCT, Profissional Certificado Conectiva

better translation (2)

sometwo (53041) | about 13 years ago | (#2129197)

here [] - I got this through the one built in to Mozilla.

Re:better translation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2129175)

conectiva's translation [] conectiva has their own english translation....

.iso (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2130308)

I have had the isos up for over a week now at have fun email me if you have trouble.

Synaptic Uses? (2, Troll)

CajunArson (465943) | about 13 years ago | (#2130398)


I am relatively new to APT-GET as the only Debian box I have ever setup is a small P166 server sitting here by me at work. (A little off topic but Debian is quite an efficient distro!)

My main question is that Connectiva appears to use Apt-get as well, and from what I saw Synaptic presents a nice logical UI for all this functionality, but to where is it connecting?

On debian I connect to the main debian servers for updates, back home on my Mandrake machine I connect to the Mandrake mirrors with Mandrake Update, but is Synaptic generic enough that I could replace Mandrake Update with it? Could I install Connectiva, and then try to get packages from Debian?

Obviously you could get packages from any distro manually, but the important thing is whether or not they would be able to satisfy dependencies and run, and I was wondering how much Synaptic could help in that area.

Thanks in advance for anyone who has experience here and can clarify!

Re:Synaptic Uses? (2, Informative)

Walles (99143) | about 13 years ago | (#2140270)

I'm certainly no expert on Connectiva (as I've never used it), and my experience with Debian is limited to using apt-get and dselect a lot, but I think the answers to your questions are as follows:

is Synaptic generic enough that I could replace Mandrake Update with it?

In case the Mandrake mirrors provide the correct directory structure for apt-get to work with, yes. Otherwise no. As Mandrake distribute apt-get in contrib [] (at least that's what I guess the apt RPM contains), I guess the answer is "yes".

Could I install Connectiva, and then try to get packages from Debian?

No. Connectiva uses RPMs. Debian uses DEBs. They have different dependency databases, so AFAICT that shouldn't be possible.

Cheers //Johan

Re:Synaptic Uses? (1)

morcego (260031) | about 13 years ago | (#2152163)

Actualy, you can use alien [] to convert debrpm.
If you are already using Conectiva Linux 7.0, just do apt-get install alien .

Re:Synaptic Uses? (1)

morcego (260031) | about 13 years ago | (#2118318)

And then I messed up the HTML tags ...
debrpm should read: deb<->rpm.
Shame on me for not using preview :-(

Synaptic and Progeny (1)

Alvandaar (35055) | about 13 years ago | (#2146270)

Can someone tell me if it is possible to use synaptic on a Progeny-based box?

Re:Synaptic and Progeny (1)

Patola (106158) | about 13 years ago | (#2151244)

I know synaptic has been built to work with .debs also (it doesn't matter, it's just the apt database). I just don't know the gory details on how to configure it for that. Maybe it's a compile-time define or something like that.

Heh...babelfish is funny (3, Funny)

Linux Freak (18608) | about 13 years ago | (#2151243)

I wonder why people bother posting babelfish translations. They are practically useless. :^) Interestingly enough, this one consistently misspells "launch" (as "launchn"). Somebody should send e-mail to Altavisa (pre-1999) er I mean to Digital, er, I mean Compaq, er I mean Altavista about this. :-)

Amusement value of Babelfish (1)

Richard Bannister (464181) | about 13 years ago | (#2123585)

Have you ever tried translating back and forth in Babelfish? I took the liberty of translating this story back and forth into different languages a few times. Somebody set us up the bomb:

Conectiva Linux 7,0 is outside. It pulls announcement here. And here babelfish translation. Those already the frame and England give very quick * start to Portugal. However (perhaps you obtain, it was) already, there is a OIN material with ds English. Common document transmission word of the agreement server due to stacking too much. The Hoever and the Rik VanRiel offer the fast server one not to lie to us. I above-mentioned predicate do not do the side of each unit, but, as for general correction following to the adaptation of conclusion of the eastfront whose point of view of the foundation of the mine is rather good. Help of the nerve, you write, is.


Re:Heh...babelfish is funny (1)

Linux Freak (18608) | about 13 years ago | (#2124759)

Er, I meant, "Altavista" (pre-1999). I may as well explain my joke :p used to be some lame portal which you'd always end up at when you really wanted the search engine. It offered you a link to the REAL altavista search engine. Fortunately, Digital/Compaq snapped them up. ;-)

Re:Heh...babelfish is funny(here too) (1)

iplayfast (166447) | about 13 years ago | (#2151341)

To set in motion the bed, the user will count on added coupons to the package, that give to right the two hours of telephonic attendance and three months saw email. If the validity of the bed to die, the Connective also offers the extendido bed, in the two versions, so that the user can acquire more time to take off its doubts.

10 Days Late (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2151470)

Conectiva 7.0 was released to ftp servers on 30 July 2001 - this is a bit of an old news, really. Anyway, check out the features at distrowatch [] .

Code Red or /. (-1, Redundant)

NatePWIII (126267) | about 13 years ago | (#2151818)

Another site, destroyed by the /. frenzy... Please people.

Re:Code Red or /. (0, Offtopic)

NatePWIII (126267) | about 13 years ago | (#2151979)

Actually this bring backs some fond memories when the Slashdot community tried to bring our server down back in '99. The server took the load fine (running good old FreeBSD of course), however our single T1 line pretty much maxed out. Makes me wonder, what kind of ftp server some of these companies and individuals run. I have yet to have a properly configured Unix server, web or otherwise crash from a heavy load. Can't say the same for NT and Win2k of course, they collapse under anything over about 30% load unfortunately.

Listen Up (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2120078)

This is a big fuck you, going out to all you ponce brits just getting up.

More linux distros? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2151819)

Do we need them? fp.

Re:More linux distros? (-1)

Cmdr (Fuck You) Taco (469621) | about 13 years ago | (#2152075)

Yes. Thanks for asking.

Don't forget (-1)

Cmdr (Fuck You) Taco (469621) | about 13 years ago | (#2151831)

Linux sucks.

ep (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2151848)

This early post for Ida! Love ya!

Yet another one (1, Insightful)

Splezunk (250168) | about 13 years ago | (#2152120)

What makes this one different from other Linux distributions. Until Somebody produces a Linus that is easy to install, and doesn't need a massive learning curve to actually use, Linux is still very useless to me.

I really think Linux should take a look at the ease of which BeOS installs and configures itself. That is what the average user wants - transparancy.

Zen and the lack of knowledge (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2114088)

A wealth of information to learn on the net. But our proverbial horses don't want to drink the waters. This is an emotional issue for the learned and unlearned both but I eventually came to the conclusion that this is just the way things are and perhaps this mass lethargy should just run it's course.

The end result will be less than satisfactory for some of course but you can't force people to learn valuable skills. Their fates are already sealed.

Linux installs easier than BeOS (1)

konmaskisin (213498) | about 13 years ago | (#2114678)

And BeOS doesn't have vast well organized set of Spanish and Portuguese documentation.

At the present time comparing the usefulness of Conectiva Linux and BeOS to Latin American consumers is like comparing the usefulness of a desktop/server computer with a rock that someone has thrown into a lake and that has sunk to the bottom and disappeared under a thick layer of mud.

Re:Yet another one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2118316)

Well, Conectiva linux can be instaled with only 5 mouse clicks, and restart on graphical interface after reboot...

Re:Yet another one (2, Interesting)

pjbass (144318) | about 13 years ago | (#2119081)

I remember the first time I installed Linux. It ate me over and over again. This was back in the days of Red Hat 4.1. But I had to install Linux on the server it was going on, so I had no choice. I had to learn it, and had to make it work correctly.

To me it sounds like you don't "need" Linux running on your mahcine. I may be wrong, so I apologize if I am. However, the learning curve is steep, yes, but it is steep because the OS is not designed for being "user-friendly," rather, something designed for reliability and performance.

I assure you, the day you NEED a Linux box, it will come to you... :-)

Conectiva Debuted as 7.0?? Time to give it a try:) (2, Interesting)

jessieDyke (513702) | about 13 years ago | (#2120970)

Well, there is something pretty common here in Brazil... brazilian software developers and system administrators tend to see national software as being of low/bad quality and to rely more on international products and distributions than to give credit to local products. I have heard someone made incredibly good comments on the Window Maker, and going wide eyed by being told Window Maker is a Brazilian Software. And never again doing any comment about it, but replacing it by Enlightenment on their desktops. And also, more than once I have heard comments from many admins saying they wouldn't use Conectiva simply because it was a Brazilian distribution, preferring Slackware or RedHat instead. But Conectiva is managing to break that down. I am working with one guy related to the Conectiva project, and they are really doing much development locally, instead of just picking the best software around and bundling it in "yet one more distribution". And also, Conectiva is a commercial distribution, with a great deal of worry from Conectiva ( the company ) on supporting and training their users. So, I think it's time to give Conectiva a try, at least, before putting Debian back on my notebook. I can keep You all updated on what goes on, but I believe Conectiva grained a self identity, no longer being simply a RedHat 5.2 with some patches over it, like Conectiva 4.0 was. kisses, Jessica

Re:Conectiva Debuted as 7.0?? Time to give it a tr (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2110343)

I've been using Conectiva since release 5.0, and I think it's a quite good distro. I installed 7.0 a week ago, kernel 2.4, and it recognizes all my hardware (voodoo3, generic modem,...). This distro addresses some language questions without user support(I don't need to configure lots of stuff manually, for example tex, to support portuguese). Most translations from English to portuguese aren't very nice, but you still can install man pages in English, or even install all the system in english - as easy as point-and-click in the installation process. I haven't tryed, but it has also support for Spanish. The Brazilian market is huge and growing, and we don't have money to expend in Win-dos licenses. There is also a political movement against proprietary sw here, to stop expending public money when good stuff is free, like Linux, StarOffice et all.

I gave them a try... (1)

Remote (140616) | about 13 years ago | (#2122928)

I can't think of a good reasons to avoid Conectiva Linux, but OTOH I see not a single one to use it. Among the arguments one generally hears in Brazil about why to use CL:

  • Translation - Their translations to Portuguese are light-years away from professional grade (as unfortunately seems to be the norm with Linux material in Portuguese over the net.) As long as one can functionally read English (which I believe to be the case of people who are into UNIX administration), what one gets from an original English text makes more sense than most translations. If you are a vanilla user who can't read English, well, I do not know how well-translated other distros are, but beating CL in that field isn't hard at all.

    90-day support - Now *that* is a joke! I phoned them 3 times with the following questions when I first installed Linux:

    • How do I display more than 25 lines in a terminal screen? The answer was to add a line like "vga=788" (?) in lilo.conf, but the answer I got was: "This is not covered by basic support, sir. You need to upgrade."

      How do I get things compiled after I install gcc and GNU tools?? Answer: install the "development" libraries too, you insignificant beginer! The answer I got: "This is not covered by basic support, sir. You need to upgrade."

      How do I access my DOS partition from Linux? Answer: You either edit fstab or use linuxconf to create a mounting point for the filesystem and configure it to mount automatically upon startup. But I got the same standard answer.

    Well, to be 100% honest, this was back in 1999, but from my point of view these were all legitimate installation questions to which I had to dig for the answers myself, without Internet access at home at the time.

    Hardware support - Conectiva claims to support lots of cheap hardware commonly found in old PC's. I don't think this is not true for some other distros too. And this is becoming less important by the day.

    Security - OK, they make patches available over their website really quick, but the default installation of CL 4.0, as I later concluded, left a lot of unnecessary services open. I don't know about CL 6.0 wich I'm using now in my DT machine, for I chose the packages myself.

    Easy installation - CL 6.0 defaults to a graphic install, which failed to recognise the video card in my notebook, making it impossible to use. I installed SuSE 6.0, a breeze, but I was too much used to CL's (RH's) way of doing things. Then I installed Mandrake, even easier and recognised everything except, obviously, the WinModem.

There are other things about Conectiva that I don't like, but in this post I'll stick to mention why the arguments they use are not important for many people. If one can't read English at all, I'd say "go CL", despite the rough translation. Otherwise, yes, CL is pretty much just another distro, maybe among the best as a server distro, probably not as a desktop.

Re:Yet another one (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2128373)

eh, have you never looked at Linux Mandrake [] . It's probably easier to install than anything from M$, and has anything any Joe Average would want to use (Apache, MySQL...). No massive learning curve there ...

Re:Yet another one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2128762)

This is funny. In January, I got a new HD, soI decided to install a real distribution ( been upgrading an old Redhat distro for several years). I was realy upset when I put the CD in, answered some dumb questions, and had a fully operational system. No modelines, no tweeking scripts, no running around for drivers. I do not have exactly standard hardware either, being a mix of real old and very new. In addition I have an oddball monitor and only SCSI HDs. I missed having to dick around for two days getting everything working. I have some things against this SuSE, but they would only matter to someone like me who is constantly changing things ( in the name of "upgrading"). I found this installation less painfull then what I went through installing Macrohards raped version of VMS. Any MS lobotimized churl should feel right at home with SuSE, though they might miss that hard thing thrusting up their rearend.

Re:Yet another one (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2129509)

How about the fact that you can apt-get RPMs for a start? Well there is actually a lot of other nice things in there too, but that's something definetly worth looking at.

This isn't in my opinion *the* most cutting edge distro available, but it is very good distro and is best what it aims to be: the distro for people who they target at, that is Latin American bussinesses and users.

The users at LA too need some sort of official tech support and special localization support. Trust me if they didn't do their job, no one else would. You really don't think that RedHat, SuSe or Mandrake are going to switch focus from their current mainstream makets to fill in the gaps in other not as rich markets, are you? People at LA are interested in having localization work done, in having competent tech support people who can speak their native language and having development targeted at people that might have different needs than the rest of the geeks in the rest of the world. How would you feel if you needed to call Germany and speak in german for every single tech support anyone in your country would ever need? Trust me i can do just fine without any tech support, as most geeks can, but bussinesses really can't be operated on this assumption.

They have also been very evangelists for Linux in LA. With their support many counties have passed laws in which the local governments are to use exclusively free/open software, unless that for the required function the software only exists in a non-free type of license. Not only that but they have been working [] also on a more stripped down distro to give more people access to computing and the internet. Personally I wouldn't really mind seeing another few million users being introduced into computing directly to linux. And anyone trying to get technology to those who need deserve some kudos!


Nothing like Free home-brewed Beer and Freedom and happiness to all that pursue it!

Re:Yet another one (5, Insightful)

GreyPoopon (411036) | about 13 years ago | (#2151174)

Until Somebody produces a Linus that is easy to install, and doesn't need a massive learning curve to actually use, Linux is still very useless to me.

Linux doesn't necessarily need the learning curve that many people attribute to it. Sure, back in the Slackware-only days, installing, configure and using Linux required some knowledge and effort. But today, it really depends on what you want to do. If you just want to run a few office apps like most people do with windows, you never need to touch source code, or bother with the tricky stuff. Just buy a good distribution (like Mandrake or Redhat or [insert favorite here]), and install it.

Now, what makes Linux difficult? First, there is partitioning your hard drive and installing file systems in preparation for the install. This makes many users really nervous. But here's the reality. If you started with a blank hard drive and installed Windows from scratch, you'd still have to set up the file system on the hard drive during the install. You might not have to *partition* the drive, but you don't have to do that with some of the Linux distributions if you are running them without a dual-boot situation. Don't want to go through the trouble of installing it yourself? Do what most people do with Windows -- buy a machine with the OS preinstalled. While rare, you can find machines with Linux preinstalled.

The second difficult thing about installing Linux is the reported problems with recognizing hardware. Note that this is getting better and better, but you'll find that there are problems with devices designed specifically for Windows (WinModems and Windows Printers), and there are also problems with proprietary hardware in which the manufacturer has not opened the specs to Open Source developers. Want to avoid this problem? Make sure your hardware is fully supported by the Linux distribution BEFORE you install. Think consumers wouldn't go for this? Surprise! They did a few years ago when Microsoft released Windows NT 4.0. It was funny how all of those machines my former employer bought from Compaq weren't certified to run Windows NT, and when we had installation and reliability problems, we were outta luck. And these were high-end machines at the time.

While I'm rambling on, let me tell you where I see *real* problems with Linux. The problem is with user interface consistency. You see, one of the great Linux strengths is also a weakness. There are lots of choices for your desktop, and each has a set of applications tailored to it. Great! Nobody is going to tell me what desktop environment I have to use. But if my favorite applications require various environments, I have a slight problem. Yes, I can run all of them under my favorite desktop environment, but they look, feel and interact differently. In many cases, you almost have to know which libraries the application was written with to fully understand how to use it. This can be very confusing for the average user -- it's bad enough that they have to learn something different from Windows, but try explaining that they have to learn two or three different styles of user interface. It can be frustrating. I hope to see this improve. Perhaps authors of good applications tailored for one environment will port them to another. For example, if your favorite web browser is Konqueror under KDE, but your favorite desktop is GNOME with Enlightenment, wouldn't it be nifty to see a port that interfaces really well with GNOME? Maybe we'll see these kinds of things in the future.

Re:Yet another one (2)

Galvatron (115029) | about 13 years ago | (#2123508)

What I'd really like to see is people try to abstract the functionality from the UI. Take Mozilla. If you want a good Gnome interface, use Galeon. Presumably, someone could also make a KDE interface to keep consistency there. I hope we see a lot more toolkit-specific front ends with toolkit-independent back ends in the future.

Re:Yet another one (1)

optikSmoke (264261) | about 13 years ago | (#2159641)

Konqueror has an option in which you can utilize the mozilla engine instead of KHTML (the Konqueror default) using a widget called "kmozilla" (I think this is similar to the GtkMozilla widget in that you can embed it in any KDE app).

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to communicate well with Konqueror (as far as I have been able to tell, though this may be due to the fact that I am using a more recent mozilla). Anyway, i am using galeon at the moment because I don't particulerly like the speed of KHTML, and I like the tabs and "smart search toolbar" or whatever in galeon. I just wish that the GNOME interface looked good with my KDE desktop (though the fonts and colours match, due to KDE's nice "apply fonts and colours to non-KDE apps" option).

Re:Yet another one (1)

Galvatron (115029) | about 13 years ago | (#2114675)

I *though* I'd heard something about konquerer having the ability to render via gecko or khtml, but I couldn't find any such option in my preferences. How does one do this?

Re:Yet another one (1)

rsd (194962) | about 13 years ago | (#2127081)

Just my experience with CL 7.0:

Now, what makes Linux difficult? First, there is partitioning your hard drive and installing file systems in preparation for the install.
Conectiva had work with Andrew Clausen, parted [] Author to make repartitioning and automatic repartitioning in the Installation really clean for the new user.

While I'm rambling on, let me tell you where I see *real* problems with Linux. The problem is with user interface consistency.
Some distributions try to force the user into one or too GUI (usually kde and gnome).
Conectiva has created the xscripts interface. A really simple interface that let any window manager (I did it for staroffice without a wm too) to be shown in the KDM login screen or be called from the console. So the user has a choice from KDE, gnome, enlightenment, windowmaker, blackbox, xfce, sawmill, qvwm, ...
But that as it was commented above, this might make the user feel lost. quite right. But Debian [] has developed a MENU system. This let all aplications in one interface see the same applications over the wms menu system across them all.
I have noted that the window user likes to start with qvwm before going to KDE, gnome, ... This let he finds all applications he needs in any place. Also qvwm is one of the fastest wm around, so a user who has a poor hardware configuration would enjoy it too ( I would prefer myself blackbox ;).

Another great thing Conectiva is doing is in Linuxconf development. Conectiva has a full team of developers developing Linuxconf, creating modules, finding bugs and helping improving it. So, you can do almost anything from it.

I cant believe no-one is implementing this. (0)

Second_Derivative (257815) | about 13 years ago | (#2146349)

Now, what makes Linux difficult? First, there is partitioning your hard drive and installing file systems in preparation for the install. This makes many users really nervous. But here's the reality. If you started with a blank hard drive and installed Windows from scratch, you'd still have to set up the file system on the hard drive during the install. You might not have to *partition* the drive, but you don't have to do that with some of the Linux distributions if you are running them without a dual-boot situation. Don't want to go through the trouble of installing it yourself? Do what most people do with Windows -- buy a machine with the OS preinstalled. While rare, you can find machines with Linux preinstalled.

Look, there's a far simpler way of installing Linux without bothering with partitions or any of that UMSDOS crap; I was feeling REALLY bored a while back and I stumbled upon a fascinating HOWTO. You know the BeOS trick of making a virtual 'partition' out of a 400MB file on your Windows drive? Linux can do that. The HOWTO is here [] but here's the gist of it - you boot linux with root=/dev/loop0, and supply it with an initrd. The linuxrc on this initrd mounts the Windows partition and then calls losetup to tie /dev/loop0 to the 400MB 'partition' (typically it would also set up loop1 as a swap but one could always just use a swap file). Linuxrc then terminates and the kernel mounts /dev/loop0 as root, and moves the initrd onto /initrd. Provided you defragment your DOS partition beforehand this is probably going to be roughly as efficient as a partition and a heck of a lot less dangerous. The HOWTO is dated 1999, how come no-one's put this into a distro? Perhaps I should add it to Debian or something... ;)

Re:I cant believe no-one is implementing this. (1)

GreyPoopon (411036) | about 13 years ago | (#2152201)

You know the BeOS trick of making a virtual 'partition' out of a 400MB file on your Windows drive? Linux can do that.

The only problem with this is that I believe it only works with FAT partitions. If you have, say Windows 2000 or NT on your machines with NTFS, this won't work. I wish it would, though. I was looking for a quick solution like this for my laptop.

Ought to... (0)

Second_Derivative (257815) | about 13 years ago | (#2151566)

...isnt there readwrite support for NTFS now? last I checked it was marked Dangerous but that was 2.4.4 and I'm sure its changed by .8 or .7 or whatever. It shouldnt be dangerous anyways because the file's blocks are all preallocated so the fs metadata shouldnt change (ok, maybe checksums & whatnot but no allocation or anything) so its probably safe. Was this the problem?

Re:Ought to... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2151609)

It is horribly difficult to implement this. Since NTFS is, IMHO, very crappy filesystem. The exact reason why write support is so hard to achieve can be found on the kernel mailing list, but I can tell you it is not going to be stable in the foreseeable future. The guy working on write support had some connection with MS and was under an NDA, so he had to stop working on it for at least a few years (if i remember correctly he is working on it now, but not allowed to open the code).

Re:Ought to... (1)

kel-tor (146691) | about 13 years ago | (#2112656)

may be a crappy fs, but haveing a linux boot disk which auto mounts the NTFS partion and opens the sam file to clear the Admin password is a big help, especially when the person with your job before you never told anyone what his admin password was. (Turned out that L0fat password cracker got it in 3 seconds, it was 'Fred.' Of course I thought the cracker didnt work, because nobody would use a 4 letter, their own first name for an admin password right?:--)

Try RedHat 7.1... (1)

raretek (215909) | about 13 years ago | (#2151471)

... and choose KDE as your default desktop during the install. I had a 10 year old install it on one of my notebooks with no problems. He was doing his homework on it about half an hour after booting it for the first time. If you can't figure it out, maybe you should seek help from a local 3rd grader.

Re:Try RedHat 7.1... (1)

xiaix (247688) | about 13 years ago | (#2136170)

Thank you! I was going to mention that... I just installed 7.1 on a vaio notebook dual-booting with ME it took less time to install and update RH than it did to run the windows updates (not to mention 10 reboots for windows, 0 for RH). I haven't worked with BeOS [] so I can't comment on it...

Re:Try RedHat 7.1... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2120982)

err, what does BeOS have to do with installing and using GNU/Linux?

Re:Yet another one (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2152169)

Linux is a kernel.

You should try the Mandrake distribution, or even the Debian Progeny. It's all clicky and GUI like you seem to want.

Re:Yet another one (2, Insightful)

Splezunk (250168) | about 13 years ago | (#2152236)

Gui and clicky is nice for the AVERAGE user. Think people. The users out there who like their AOL etc. don't have a clue what a hard drive is, never mind Sync/refresh rates, and what is actually inside there computer. They just want it to work.

There will always be a market for people who want to recompile the Kernal, and tweak this and that. This is good, but not for the Average user out there.

That is all I am trying to say.

Re:Yet another one (1)

Aazzkkimm (465445) | about 13 years ago | (#2122877)

The users out there who like their AOL etc. don't have a clue what a hard drive is, never mind Sync/refresh rates, and what is actually inside there computer. They just want it to work.

When was the last time an AOL user installed any program, let alone an OS? Installation and setup complaints with regard to any linux distribution is moot. There's nothing difficult about using linux.

Re:Yet another one (0, Flamebait)

Per Abich (45614) | about 13 years ago | (#2152182)

You're right there. For the average user, linux is still quite useless. You always need to learn how to compile the software you just downloaded although you are actually content with a default binary (which you often cannot get).

If you can read you can use it. (1)

brujito (301318) | about 13 years ago | (#2120077)

I guess people do not like to read now days. I just got linux, and is not hard to use. To compile all I do is. configure then make then make install. easy. I really like the gimp.

Re:Yet another one (1)

raretek (215909) | about 13 years ago | (#2151256)

You're not right. If you don't like to compile, download the binaries. As for being "content with a default binary"(as if default binaries are somehow shoddy), that is your ONLY option on other well known, but charge-you-up-the-arse-for-your-ignorance platforms.
The only times I've been unable to obtain binaries is for software that is still in the development stage. If you can't understand why software in the development stage isn't packaged yet, then most definetly, Linux, or anything else that requires logical thought, will be useless to you.

If you do understand, then you'll also take note that virtually every major desktop application that the "average"(your apparent defintion, not mine) user would want, is most definetly available in a binary format.

Re:Yet another one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2152374)

I really think Linux should take a look at the ease of which BeOS installs and configures itself.

Gee really? We should look at ease of use? WOW thanks for giving us the benefit of your supreme wisdom!

Re:Yet another one (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2152515)

"Until Somebody produces a Linus that is easy to install"

I agree. Last time I tried to install Linus, he kicked me in the nuts.

What I want, what I really, really want... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2120918)

Thick, fat, shit-encrusted cocks!

Re:Yet another one (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2152460)

Ugh. That's really lame.

Re:Yet another one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2152993)

I have used BeOS and I liked certain things about it but I didn't like the following things: -No free Office suit like StarOffice etc.... for Linux - Extremely limited hardware support -Very poor networking Another thing, please provide more detail next time as: - which distro from the 200 out there you used ? - which version of that ? - have you asked for help and from where newsgroups, friends etc ?

A standard packaging system and a great front end. (5, Informative)

Nailer (69468) | about 13 years ago | (#2153025)

What makes this one different from other Linux distributions?

It combines the Linux Standard Base packaging system, RPM 3.05, with the most well known automatic software installation frontend, APT, a tight set of packaging guidelines, and a nice GUI for APT called Synaptic.

Also, most people don't live in North America or speak English, and internationalization for most general purpose distributions is quite poor.

Re:A standard packaging system and a great front e (1)

morcego (260031) | about 13 years ago | (#2121460)

Actualy, Conectiva Linux 7.0 uses RPM 4.
But apt is even more integrated with it then it was with RPM 3.

Re:A standard packaging system and a great front e (2)

Nailer (69468) | about 13 years ago | (#2119524)

Indeed. I meant the packaging format - LSB covers the format, not the application version. RPM 3.05 and 4.0 use the same package format (and a different back end database).

So yeah, RPM4 is good, and so is Connectiva.

Synaptic tool! Cool! From the movie? (0, Offtopic)

abh (22332) | about 13 years ago | (#2152181)

I wonder if the Synaptic tool allows me to access the Synapse servers? Look out Gary Winston!

Jeff Probst (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2152202)

oops... I mean.. ahhh nevermind.

A|\|c| THe w0r|_d ya|/\|/vS (1)

OpperNerd (16084) | about 13 years ago | (#2152237)

A|\|c| THe w0r|_d ya|/\|/vS

Ah, the irony... (0)

rmezzari (245108) | about 13 years ago | (#2152254)

Here are your recent submissions to Slashdot, and their status within the system:
2001-08-02 23:36:02 Conectiva releases new version (articles,linux) (rejected)

Now that's old news for about a week.


Importance (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2152328)

Does anyone actually care?

At last... (3, Funny)

colonial_taxman (395901) | about 13 years ago | (#2152408)

A GUI that uses a flat file rather than digging through layers of arbitrarily grouped


Re:At last... (1)

Laven (102436) | about 13 years ago | (#2128534)

RPMDrake in Mandrake has both flat view and "arbitrary grouped functionality."

Hoever (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2151245)

Do you mean another version of a hoe?

Most Linux distributions suck (2)

magi (91730) | about 13 years ago | (#2152487)

In spring, I went through the installation of all the major Linux distributions. They all sucked, because of various reasons.

Unfortunately, I didn't write the problems up. Of the RPM distributions, I liked Mandrake best, except that I had to install it about 5 times because some programs simply wouldn't work. After a few hours I found out that the system didn't work properly because of the Finnish language setting given in the first screen of the installation. Well, got that fixed, but after failing to install newest version of KDE properly, I kicked Mandrake out. I think it had some other critical problems too, but can't remember what anymore.

I installed SuSe Linux on my employer's two notebooks. It was hell, because SuSe didn't have a rescue CD. I was frustrated like hell and just couldn't believe this. Yeah, it had 3,5" rescue disk, but the notebooks didn't have such drives. Finally I managed to get it installed by using the Mandrake installation CD's rescue mode... Why did I need a rescue disk? I had accidentally written the LILO to wrong partition (not MBR), and I didn't want to go through the package selection again. Also setting up the network was hell, and fought with it for hours. I was unable to setup my audio card (SB AWE32) on my home machine, even with hours of fighting. The "YAST2" setup tool is sh*t, and slow as hell (and has annoyingly stupid name - why not just call it "System Installation Tool" or something???). In the second installation I didn't select ALL packages during the initial installation. Thus, I was forced to select 600 packages one-by-one using a notebook nanny because the package manager didn't support keyboard properly. It took about half an hour to select them all. On the plus side, SuSe has the prettiest boot screen I've ever seen. ;-)

Corel Linux (based on Debian) had definitely the easiest installation! Everything went smooth, as it detected my AWE32 sound card and got even my exotic i740 video card and rare Viewpoint monitor working straight properly! Unfortunately, the support from Corel was non-existant, and there weren't any updates. I wanted to install new KDE 2.x, so I added some regular Debian sites to the update program. It went hell, as the Debian packages broke the system entirely.

I installed Debian on my home server/router/firewall. It was also hell, because I don't have a 3,5" disk drive, just CD, and Debian didn't have a bootable installation CD. It also didn't have a way to install it from RedHat. It took about two days to install it from RedHat, using chroot tweaks to run the installation scripts, etc. But that's nothing, then I had to fight with the package installations. I have to say that dselect has the most horrible user interface that I've ever seen in any program. Come on guys! Why can't you use "Esc" key for returning, but "Shift-Q"????? Aaaarghhh. Anyhow, using dselect and configuring the apt-get sources.list was horribly difficult, and I've been using Linux (RH) for 6 years and computers for 18 years. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be for a beginner. Choosing between the "stable" and "unstable" packages is also a hell to configure, and I still don't know how to do that in the source.list file, after using Debian for a few months. For some time the "unstable" worked, but then I started getting weird errors such as:

Sorry, but the following packages have unmet dependencies:
apache: Depends: libdb2 (>= 2:2.7.7-4) but 2:2.7.7-8 is to be installed
E: Sorry, broken packages

Then I switched back to the stable - which means having outdated packages all the time. Configuring the APT system is really confusing and non-intuitive for even an experienced Linux (RH) user (and I'm not really a computer beginner after 18 years). Everything requires reading huge amounts of documentation and help files. That's just NOT the way modern software should be done. All programs should be tested on beginners. But Debian developers clearly have some tendency to make the system so complex that they can feel superior. That's just idiotic.

Finally, I installed RedHat 7.1 to my personal workstation. Can't remember all the problems anymore, but they were plenty, as always with RedHat installations. Why on earth RH still doesn't have ReiserFS??? They say "it's not stable enough", but I switched from ext2 exactly because of non-fixable filesystem corruption. And I don't want to wait 30 minutes for the chkfs for the 60GB drive. The new "up2date" updater is a joke. On the first update, it tried to update the up2date itself, but ran into depency problems with Python (it's written with Python I guess). Yeah, this was the out-of-the-box installation. No, the updater didn't inform which package conflicted with which, but just that there was "a conflict" with SOME of the 20 packages it tried to install. Of course it didn't tell which package conflicted and how. I had to trace and update them manually with rpm, after a lot of trouble. After resolving that problem, I was able to make up2dates for a month, and now there's again a conflict. No, I'm not going to use up2date again before the GUI is fixed PROPERLY.

Linux definitely is not ready for desktop, or for beginners. I believe the main obstacle is the attitude of the developers, who require that users use huge amount of time studying the documentations.

Even as a heavy user, and as a software developer, I don't want to spend months of my time on studying useless things. Most people don't, and if Linux developers require them to do that, everybody loses.

Target the Brazilian OS market... smart! (3, Interesting)

Dancin_Santa (265275) | about 13 years ago | (#2152513)

Considering that Brazil is the largest market in the southern hemisphere (okay, Australia is there too...), making a Portugese port of Linux makes a lot of sense.

Of course, porting and selling Linux hasn't yet proved to be a sustainable business plan.

Dancin Santa

Re:Target the Brazilian OS market... smart! (1)

richie123 (180501) | about 13 years ago | (#2120080)

just made a mod screw-up so I'll post to undue it

Re:Target the Brazilian OS market... smart! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2114089)


Which mod was the mistake?

Re:Target the Brazilian OS market... smart! (1)

Retype (152669) | about 13 years ago | (#2124203)

They made a portuguese version because conectiva is from Brazil, not because it was a good market option.

troll ? (-1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2153636)

This is total bull shit.

Australia's number of PCs totals 6.58 million as of 1998. (35% population/PC).

South Africa has 8.50 million PCs as of 1998. (23% population/PC). Yes, more people PER CAPITA in Australia have PCs (35% vs 23%), but South Africa has more in total, and is expanding faster. So, I would seriously suggest you check your facts about the "largest markets in the Southern Hemisphere"

Re:troll ? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2121512)

The point was about Brazil, not Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Antarctica, or any other country in the Southern Hemisphere. Brazil is going to have an economy that far exceeds any of those countries in the coming years and it's a smart idea for a company to make a product specifically tailored for that market.

Get over your insecurities, man.

Re:troll ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2111333)

I wasn't denying that Brazil is going to be bigger than any of those other economies, but you stated an incorrect fact. If you weren't sure and were just trying to make a point about the future Brazilian economy, you should have actually said that.

Re:troll ? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2124758)

I hope it is clear now.

Re:troll ? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2123347)

Sure, wasn't trying to offend you, but the Brazil/Australia inclusion *DID* seem a bit troll-like.

Slashdot... (1)

anubis__ (168382) | about 13 years ago | (#2152692)

Slashdot: Free advertising space for Linux distros. Stuff that no one should care about.

but you care enough ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2125370)

to read it and complain?

Guess you're a masochist! :)


Babel Fish's Translation (1)

NewbieSpaz (172080) | about 13 years ago | (#2152779)

"The Connective Linux 7.0"

I guess the translator doesn't realize Connectiva as a brand name, or maybe if you speak english, it is called "Connective" ;)

Re:Babel Fish's Translation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2127117)

The correct spell is Conectiva with only 1 "n".

Conectividade == Connectivity

Another good APT front-end (1)

wsapplegate (210233) | about 13 years ago | (#2152943)

It's called Aptitude. It's only included in Sid AFAIK, but it's nevertheless neat. First, that's a ncurses app: No stupid GUI bloat. Second, it's as simple as Mutt (which I happen to like, too ;-)) And third, the author is cool and listen to the users (which is a very good point). I use it daily to manage my overbloated distro and it does a great job. If you've got a Sid, you should definitely have a look at it...

Re:Another good APT front-end (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2131609)

Conectiva Linux comes with aptitude too (since 6.0, even).

Interface Consistency (4, Insightful)

Ulwarth (458420) | about 13 years ago | (#2153647)

Agreed on all points, especially the last one. Interface consistency is something that has frustrated even *me*, and I'm a died-in-the-wool UNIX old-timer. (Hell, I actually _like_ the way that Motif looks.)

That's why I find KDE so exciting. They are actually acheiving a level of consistency and quality in the interface that meets (or, in my opinion, exceeds) that of Microsoft, Apple, or really any other desktop I can think of.

What I'd really like to see is KLinux. A distro centered entirely around KDE, with no non-KDE apps available. At this point that might make the app selection just a little slim, particularly since KOffice is still not on-par with the functionality of something like StarOffice. But I think there are many users that would really appreciate the level of consistency that would be achieved by such a distribution, and the distro maintainers could focus on a 100% KDE-based system, hopefully producing a more integrated final OS.

Spanish version? (3, Interesting)

Kiwi (5214) | about 13 years ago | (#2153671)

Can anyone tell me if the 7.0 release has Spanish language support?

I know that RedHat 7.1 has Spanish support, though RH7.1 assumes you are in Spain when installing in Spanish--a strange assumption to make, considering how big Latin America is. Note: RH7.1 doesn't support Portugese.

I would assume that Conectiva has Spanish support, but it would be nice to know this for a fact.

- Sam

Re:Spanish version? (3, Informative)

Patola (106158) | about 13 years ago | (#2121513)

Well, yes, it does. I use it for a while (been upgrading with apt) and it's great. In the installation process you choose which language to use (english, portuguese or spanish).

Gotta love Babelfish... (1)

jbuilder (81344) | about 13 years ago | (#2156580)

new version of the operational system of used open code more in the whole world

Hey.. I don't want used code.. I want minty-fresh new code...! Otherwise what am I paying them for?

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