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Mystery of FBI Documents Posted To US Press In 1971 Solved

Unknown Lamer posted about 9 months ago | from the rumsfeld-spies-uzbekistan-norad dept.

Government 108

AHuxley writes "A team of eight antiwar activists broke into an FBI office in Media, Pennsylvania and removed at least 1000 documents. Once removed and sorted, the bulk of the files showed FBI spying on U.S. political groups. COINTELPRO had been found. 43 years later five of the participants have come forward."

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Cue cold fjord (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898147)

in 3, 2, 1...

Re:Cue cold fjord (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898185)

Here I am, but I didn't bother signing in.

Re:Cue cold fjord (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898941)

Disregard that, I suck cocks. -cold fjord

Heroes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898151)

Showing the next generation how to do it.

Paging Cold Fjord (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898163)

Come on, tell us exactly how these terrorists destroyed America 40 years ago by telling Americans they were being spied on by America.

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (1)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | about 9 months ago | (#45898779)

Reminds me of this conversation [slashdot.org] "I don't think you can really claim unqualified totalitarianism unless there is actual repression tied into it, especially political repression". From that exchange and to nobodies surprise, the Cold Fjord account does not appear to agree that there has or is any political repression going on in the US despite evidence such as the COINTELPRO files.

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898985)

Well you outed him for what he was, ofc he'd abandon that...

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (0, Troll)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45899037)

Come on, tell us exactly how these terrorists destroyed America 40 years ago by telling Americans they were being spied on by America.

They weren't terrorists engaged in violence, and they didn't destroy America. The crimes they committed were more or less breaking and entering, and theft of documents.

The actual terrorists engaged in a campaign of violence [zombietime.com] at the time were the Weather Underground [zombietime.com] . They had a goal of violently overthrowing the US government and economic system to replace it with revolutionary communism. If you read the very bottom section of the second link, the transcript, you can see how far they were prepared to go to accomplish it. I've heard numbers like that before, and you should too. [youtube.com]

Shall we commence with the ironic moderation?

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899789)

Come on, tell us exactly how these terrorists destroyed America 40 years ago by telling Americans they were being spied on by America.

They weren't terrorists engaged in violence, and they didn't destroy America. The crimes they committed were more or less breaking and entering, and theft of documents.

The actual terrorists engaged in a campaign of violence [zombietime.com] at the time were the Weather Underground [zombietime.com] . They had a goal of violently overthrowing the US government and economic system to replace it with revolutionary communism. If you read the very bottom section of the second link, the transcript, you can see how far they were prepared to go to accomplish it. I've heard numbers like that before, and you should too. [youtube.com]

Shall we commence with the ironic moderation?

And thus you descend from transparency into ludicrousity.

You're attempting to twist Snowden into the role of Al-Qaeda, denying him the position alongside those long-ago whistleblowers as a defender of freedom.

Yes, the Weathermen and the Panthers and others of their ilk were a matter of national concern and rightfully targets of FBI investigation. But the FBI was more than just the nation's domestic investigative body, it was also J. Edgar Hoover's personal fiefdom. He didn't simply lead it, he steered it to his own private benefit and the benefit of those leaders whom he wished to favor. That included absurd attempts to link public figures that he disapproved of to enemies of the State for the purposes of character assasination. Not just terrorists, no. Even the Godless Evil Communists! He also worked as a chilling effect against many organizations that were otherwise inclined to be peaceful, stirring up division and mistrust to the point where you pretty much had to be a committed radical to even consider getting invoved.

Then, as now, what was meant to serve the public was being distorted to meet other agendas. And then, as now, the lid needed to be ripped off and the roaches exposed to the light of day.

And somehow, we survived it.

Now: good or evil? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899799)

> They weren't terrorists engaged in violence, and they didn't destroy America.

So much is clear. Handy red herring you went after, huh?

The question is rather: did they do a service to America by disclosing (later deemed) illegal activities by its executive arm, or did they not?

Who's the bad one in this story: FBI or the activists? (hint: the Weather Underground isn't the answer: we agree on this one).

Hmmm. Tough question.

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (4, Interesting)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | about 9 months ago | (#45899845)

COINTELPRO aimed to divide and discredit the all activist movements [wikipedia.org] : "COINTELPRO tactics are still used to this day... [including] discrediting targets through psychological warfare; smearing individuals and groups using forged documents and by planting false reports in the media; harassment; wrongful imprisonment; and illegal violence, including assassination.[6][7][8]". You could even include trolling forums in that list.

As you can see, COINTELPRO contains examples of FBI sponsored campaigns of extreme violence. How do we know that the violent elements in the Weather Underground were not yet another FBI agent provocateurs [wikipedia.org] to turn public opinion against all forms of peaceful but related activism [huffingtonpost.com] . We don't know and you cannot reasonably argue that it is not the FBI given the evidence against them - the FBI even went as far as assassination to further COINTELPROs aims.

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (0)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 9 months ago | (#45900435)

FBI agents wouldn't have blown themselves up.

Acid eating hippies on the other hand...

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (0)

fredrated (639554) | about 9 months ago | (#45900635)

Acid eating hippies on the other hand...

Never happened you stupid fucker, stop injecting shit into the conversation.

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45900771)

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (1)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 9 months ago | (#45901263)

Identity of the 'stupid fucker' and 'shit injector' are left as an exercise for /. readers.

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (1)

Ellis D. Tripp (755736) | about 9 months ago | (#45901009)

FBI agents wouldn't have blown themselves up.

Right. Because federal agents are highly competent and could never do something that totally stupid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP6UvNgbqIA [youtube.com]

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (0)

operagost (62405) | about 9 months ago | (#45900759)

Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorhn are FBI plants?

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (4, Interesting)

ffflala (793437) | about 9 months ago | (#45901293)

Agent provocateurs are fascinating to observe in person. There is a bit of an art to the practice of crowd manipulation that is similar to high-energy music concerts. Some of the tactics they use can indeed be used by other groups.

The most obvious candidates will be those who basically shout themselves to the top of whatever scrim of noisy riffraff that they're in. I've personally never seen one then try to instigate violence or property damage. But I have seen instances where they will then use this borderline-criminal hostility to stir up anger between groups. This is basically a divide and disperse approach that pits the multiple groups involved in protests against each other, stoking factionalism between groups, even inventing imaginary rivalries. This not only weakens the crowd at its epicenter of a protest, but serves the secondary purpose of making that epicenter seem so uncomfortably volatile that a large part of the crowd --unaffiliated people, or the more-curious-than-passionate-- will basically disperse just to get away from what appears to be a bunch of loud, arguing, possibly intimidating assholes.

Cold shill (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45900293)

So, let's try to bring the shill back on topic. We aren't talking about the Weather Underground. I don't think that there has ever been any outrage over the FBI monitoring them.

The better example is MLK, who clearly represented a non-violent shake up of our system. By diverting resources to focus on MLK, they endangered the whole country. These enforcers aren't here to protect us or our constitution - they only exist to protect the system. And they'll still be protecting the system as we descend into the tyranny that they have lined up for us.

So CF, do you shill for them because they have dirt on you or are you just a nihilist who wants to watch America crumble under the iron heel?

 

Good work. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901267)

A three paragraph shit sandwich for the shill to chew, nicely done sir.

Re:Good work. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901663)

A hollow victory for sure. I can almost hear CF chuckle as his thug buddies assure him that all my gear is compromised and that they watch me jack off daily.

Re:Good work. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901697)

Twice daily, three on weekends.

Re:Good work. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901837)

only if he's married.

Re:Cold shill (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45902943)

So, let's try to bring the shill back on topic. We aren't talking about the Weather Underground.

The better example is MLK,...

If we are limited to the topic in the story in the narrowest sense then neither MLK nor the Weather Underground is really up for discussion. I will note in my defense that I was directly addressing a point (who are the terrorists) in the post asking for my comment. If you don't like that then blame the AC that made that post.

Also, I do have to say that you are very free about making broad, dubious assumptions.

So CF, do you shill for them because they have dirt on you or are you just a nihilist who wants to watch America crumble under the iron heel?

That is a false choice. I'm just another free citizen offering opinions in my spare time. It's a good thing too since some people are bordering on hysteria on this and related topics. I would hate for anyone to pee their pants so badly that they end up drowning. You need a life preserver there? Or are you going to be OK?

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (1)

Accordion Noir (1256202) | about 9 months ago | (#45902115)

I've admired these folks – known only by their cheeky "Citizens Committee to Investigate the FBI" name – since I first read about them 25 years ago. Their actions made the world a better place to work for change.

They brought to light (along with the Senate Church Committee hearings) that in the name of fighting terrorism (they used to call it "extremism") the FBI was functioning as a terrorist organization. The FBI itself used to define terrorism as using violence or breaking the law for political ends. The FBI did that. Their Cointelpro actions were illegal, and for political aims. They should have been investigating themselves.

But these folks did it for them! I thank them, and only wish I ever had the chance to contribute something so damn cool.

Re:Paging Cold Fjord (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45902807)

...and only wish I ever had the chance to contribute something so damn cool.

You can contribute something equally cool. You don't have to break into an FBI office to do so, either. Try and think outside the limits you've set yourself, and you'll find what you can really do. Just try not to take this as incitement to blow shit up - I'm not a fan of killing.

Treason (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898173)

Clearly, these activists should be prosecuted for treason. If convicted by a jury of their peers, they should be hanged by their necks until they are dead.

Re:Treason (1)

davester666 (731373) | about 9 months ago | (#45900737)

don't have to bother with that anymore. we can safely ship them off in the night to Guantanamo or wherever and imprison them indefinitely without charge, at the president's discretion.

Re:Treason (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45902195)

Clearly, these activists should be prosecuted for treason. If convicted by a jury of their peers, they should be hanged by their necks until they are dead.

Nice skirt you're wearing, J. Edgar.

Hero's all (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898179)

In the words of Martin Luther King, one of the targets of COINTELPRO, "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

Re:Hero's all (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898487)

In the words of Martin Luther King, one of the targets of COINTELPRO, "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Re:Hero's all (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901987)

Jesus was a big fan of rejecting unjust laws.
The below is from Luke, but there are many other examples.

A Spirit of Infirmity

10 Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.” 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

14 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”

15 The Lord then answered him and said, “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?” 17 And when He said these things, all His adversaries were put to shame; and all the multitude rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by Him.

          Luke 13:10-17

In The Old Testament, there's a great example of King David insisting that the ruler of a synagogue give David and his soldiers some holy bread as they were all extremely hungry. The holy bread was dedicated to God and could only be eaten by priests, but David correctly asserted that God doesn't want his children to die over this matter.

Re:Hero's all (1)

Nyder (754090) | about 9 months ago | (#45902993)

Jesus was a big fan of rejecting unjust laws.
The below is from Luke, but there are many other examples.

A Spirit of Infirmity

10 Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.” 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

14 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”

15 The Lord then answered him and said, “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?” 17 And when He said these things, all His adversaries were put to shame; and all the multitude rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by Him.

          Luke 13:10-17

In The Old Testament, there's a great example of King David insisting that the ruler of a synagogue give David and his soldiers some holy bread as they were all extremely hungry. The holy bread was dedicated to God and could only be eaten by priests, but David correctly asserted that God doesn't want his children to die over this matter.

Is this the same Jesus I can hire outside Home Depot?

Re:Hero's all (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45903199)

Is this the same Jesus I can hire outside Home Depot?

It's a different guy, but He almost certainly hangs around with at least some of the people at Home Depot. He might even hang around with some of your friends, neighbors, or coworkers, a LOT of people know Him. (Sometimes it will surprise you who knows Him.) If no one else will introduce you, listen in here [insight.org] and you'll probably get a chance to meet Him. It's well worth it, He is quite helpful in times of trouble.

be seeing you...

If you become a Number Two [iamsecond.com] you can meet Number One.

Cheers

Re:Hero's all (1)

operagost (62405) | about 9 months ago | (#45900785)

Matthew 22 containing the proof text.

A useful reminder (1, Troll)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45898261)

This is a useful reminder that government can be heavy handed. The group that did this made careful plans, took a big risk, and the results are still being talked about and referenced today. It contributed to reform. COINTELPRO is regularly referenced in Slashdot discussions, relevant or not.

Although COINTELPRO is remembered, few bother to remember the other side of the equation, which is the conduct of the radicals. There were those that went past legitimate protest, past civil disobedience, and turned to violence: bombs, arson, shooting. One famous example, the Weather Underground [zombietime.com] .

Weather Underground: William Ayers' forgotten communist manifesto: Prairie Fire [zombietime.com]
Kent State tape indicates altercation and pistol fire preceded National Guard shootings (audio) [cleveland.com]

Re:A useful reminder (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898399)

A other hero is Christopher Dorner [wikipedia.org] . Never forget.

Re:A useful reminder (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898591)

Can't corner the Dorner

Re:A useful reminder (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899095)

Chris Dorner is not a her, he's a murderer.

Criminals (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898401)

Some criminals claim to be irish, so we should unlawfully surveil, harass and frame all the irish people.

Some criminals claim to be leftists, so we should unlawfully surveil, harass and frame all the leftist people.

Some criminals claim to be anarchists and one guy can burn down the capitol building, so we should enact emergency laws to surveil, harass, frame, and imprison all the anarchists. ...

Difference? Nope. The rule of law and fundamental freedoms exist for a reason.

Re:Criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898575)

Some criminals claim to be irish, so we should unlawfully surveil, harass and frame all the irish people.

Some criminals claim to be leftists, so we should unlawfully surveil, harass and frame all the leftist people.

Some criminals claim to be anarchists and one guy can burn down the capitol building, so we should enact emergency laws to surveil, harass, frame, and imprison all the anarchists. ...

Difference? Nope. The rule of law and fundamental freedoms exist for a reason.

"Nae true Scotsman..."

Re:Criminals (1)

Qzukk (229616) | about 9 months ago | (#45898743)

Nae true Scotsman

Then we better investigate every last Scotsman and make sure they are true.

Re:Criminals (1, Insightful)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45899225)

Some criminals claim to be irish, so we should unlawfully surveil, harass and frame all the irish people.

Some criminals claim to be leftists, so we should unlawfully surveil, harass and frame all the leftist people.

Some criminals claim to be anarchists and one guy can burn down the capitol building, so we should enact emergency laws to surveil, harass, frame, and imprison all the anarchists. ...

Difference? Nope. The rule of law and fundamental freedoms exist for a reason.

If you want the rule of law you actually have to enforce the law. Too many people here want the rule, but not the enforcement.

Re:Criminals (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899411)

If you want the rule of law you actually have to enforce the law. Too many people here want the rule, but not the enforcement.

You misunderstand the situation. I for example would like a functioning justice system, but if oppression is the cost for it then I don't think it is worth it. I'd rather see that a free population where some terrorism exists and some criminals go free than a situation where the freedom and the rights of the population isn't respected.
With that in mind NSA has way overstepped their bounds and has to be shut down immediately. Yes, there will be some chaos but that is a necessary cost.
As far as I am concerned you are an enemy of the people and by spreading your propaganda you have hurt America far more than most terrorist can ever hope to do.

Re:Criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901311)

With that in mind NSA has way overstepped their bounds and has to be brought under control immediately. Yes, there will be some chaos but that is a necessary cost.

FTFY. Let's not cut off our nose to spite our face.

Re:Criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45900051)

If you want the rule of law you actually have to enforce the law.

So what you are saying, is that if we want the NSA to respect the law, we need to hold them accountable for the illegal actions that they partook of.

Don't worry, I'm sure your superiors will look at your denial of this post as proof that you are still on their side, but glad to see you are actually on our side. ;)

Re:Criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901839)

most be hard for Fjord when everyone knows he is a giant shill for the US government, and gets high moderation due to having a few thousand hearts and minds sock puppets.

Re:Criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901619)

Some criminals claim to be irish, so we should unlawfully surveil, harass and frame all the irish people.

Some criminals claim to be leftists, so we should unlawfully surveil, harass and frame all the leftist people.

Some criminals claim to be anarchists and one guy can burn down the capitol building, so we should enact emergency laws to surveil, harass, frame, and imprison all the anarchists. ...

Difference? Nope. The rule of law and fundamental freedoms exist for a reason.

If you want the rule of law you actually have to enforce the law. Too many people here want the rule, but not the enforcement.

But the subject at hand wasn't enforcement of the law.

It was how law-enforcement agencies go off on their own little fishing expeditions. And the need for exposure to ensure that that becomes the exception, not the rule.

The thought of a spiteful person like Hoover in charge of an all-seeing NSA is terrifying. He did enough harm even with the primitive resources of his day.

Re:Criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45902029)

Are you for enforcing the laws that forbids lying to the Congess?

Re:Criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45902219)

if you can't enforce it without bother people NOT involved, then you're doing it wrong.

Re:Criminals (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45902403)

If your solution involves punishing everyone for the actions of some people, then your solution is unwanted and unjust.

Re:A useful reminder (2)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about 9 months ago | (#45898737)

...the conduct of the radicals.

Well of course! That justifies everything. Nobody has any right to question the conduct of the government.

It contributed to reform.

LOL!

Re:A useful reminder (2)

the gnat (153162) | about 9 months ago | (#45899133)

Although COINTELPRO is remembered, few bother to remember the other side of the equation, which is the conduct of the radicals.

Stop changing the subject. What did infiltrating peaceful antiwar groups - or attempting to blackmail MLK - have to do with the Weather Underground?

Re:A useful reminder (1)

s.petry (762400) | about 9 months ago | (#45899143)

What reform? Do you mean changing the practice to ensure that everything possible gets classified and buried deeper than previously? Do you mean the people that took over your Government also taking over the media to ensure you never see those types of messages again? You can't possibly be referring to the transparency it lead to, and you can't be referring to the people responsible for COINTELPRO going to jail because that never happened.

Sure, some people have heard of COINTELPRO but the majority of Americans have not. Of those a few may have heard of Operation Mocking bird too. Those are only the programs we have proof of, and there are many many more programs to explore (and we can't because it's all 'classified').

I'm sure you will claim that those are isolated incidents where our government misbehaved because, well, you have a history of doing just that. Which ignores MKUltra where our CIA drugged a whole lot of people with LSD without their knowledge (and that is one of the few pieces of the program we have proof of, but torture and abuse are also well known). The nice expanded operation that dumped radiation on poor people in Corpus Christi and St. Louis. Fast and Furious, etc... These "conspiracy theories" are all proven to exist and have some amount of information leaked. These are what we "know" are not just theories..

Deny all you want, but when shitty people hold power shitty things happen.

Re:A useful reminder (1)

TheCarp (96830) | about 9 months ago | (#45899227)

> few bother to remember the other side of the equation, which is the conduct of the radicals.

There is one really huge fucking difference between them and the Government. Care to guess what it is?

Are radicals the ones founded upon documents promising the people to respect their rights and leave them secure in their persons and homes excepting by due process and with the authority of courts?

How does the actions of radicals free the government of the very responsibilities that its own founding documents base their very legitimacy on?

Re:A useful reminder (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45901127)

WTF is that Kent State link? The author of the linked article muses on the speculation that a gun-toting, paid FBI informant was the instigator of the Kent State shootings. Are you saying that FBI COINTELPRO has culpability in the Kent State massacre? If so, I think that goes way beyond "heavy handed"

Right before it, you post a link to an article that's not really about the Weather Underground (as labeled), but is an opinion piece that attempts to smear Obama with the alleged sins of William Ayers.

What a clumsy, disjointed post. Dude, is everything OK? You're usually a lot more adept at getting your authoritarian apologist ideas expressed in writing.

Re:A useful reminder (1)

sjames (1099) | about 9 months ago | (#45901323)

Funny you should mention Kent State considering that the evidence points to an FBI informant firing the first shot.

I will agree with you that the FBI was indeed a dangerous terrorist organization under Hoover (and perhaps still).

Re:A useful reminder (1)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 9 months ago | (#45901601)

FBI photographer fired the first shots into the ground. Defending himself from rampaging hippies ready to beat him down.

Re:A useful reminder (1)

sjames (1099) | about 9 months ago | (#45901949)

So said the guy who didn't want to be held responsible for several deaths. Of course if the FBI had stuck to it's charter, he wouldn't have been there.

Re:A useful reminder (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45902011)

As I'm sure you're aware there is a disagreement about the facts of the matter.

Shots were fired before Kent State shootings, forensic expert says [boston.com]

Former WKYC television reporter Fred DeBrine and sound man Joe Butano have said repeatedly that they heard a Kent State police detective open the cylinder of Norman’s gun and say: “Oh my god, he fired four times.’’ The police detective later denied making the remark, and a campus patrolman’s report said the gun was fully loaded with no smell of burnt powder.

Re:A useful reminder (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45902297)

As I'm sure you're aware there is a disagreement about the facts of the matter.

The article you originally linked to pretty clearly implies that an armed FBI informant fired the initial shots that lead to the deaths and injuries of innocent students at Kent State [wikipedia.org] .

Now you post a link/quote that invalidates the info from your OP? Nice.

And, in the 21st century... (1)

WanderCat (472666) | about 9 months ago | (#45898331)

...we monitor *everyone*, so as not to incur the avoidable risk of missing anyone who may pose a social or political threat.

Re:And, in the 21st century... (2)

3.5 stripes (578410) | about 9 months ago | (#45898519)

One could almost say it fits into one of the big ideas of the 60's, equal rights for everyone, now we just need to make sure the NSA and congress are as surveilled (sp) as we are.

Re:And, in the 21st century... (2)

Kierthos (225954) | about 9 months ago | (#45898763)

Didn't the NSA just recently clam up about whether or not they were surveilling Congress?

Re:And, in the 21st century... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899023)

Of course they must spy on Congress - that's where some really insidious terrorists operate - those who are able to mass-terrorize millions of Americans by denying them healthcare and by putting them out of jobs.

Re:And, in the 21st century... (5, Interesting)

dkleinsc (563838) | about 9 months ago | (#45898539)

That's not the only reason they monitor everyone.

If you're building up a dossier on absolutely everybody, then you can usethe information in that dossier whenever you want to.

For example, let's say WanderCat decided to run for political office, and part of his/her platform was "Stop the NSA from spying on everyone." Now, up until now, WanderCat hasn't been interesting enough to monitor, but now, in order to protect "America" (i.e. the national security state), the NSA will want to go through everything that WanderCat has ever said or done that they know about and make sure that anything potentially embarrassing is released via a friendly journalist willing to quote the source anonymously.

That means that the only people that can actually stop the NSA from doing what they're doing are those so squeaky-clean that they won't want to.

Re:And, in the 21st century... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898647)

Mod the parent of this up about 15... (Yes I know 5 is the limit)
This is an example of the biggest war machine ever yet assembled aimed directly at the People of the USA. Why? Maybe people should be asking that question. What threat exists in America that justifies this big weapon being aimed at who? People you are that threat! Wake up and realize that you only have one alterntive. You must recognize that you are their enemy and act accordingly.

Re:And, in the 21st century... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898721)

"The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible." -Arthur C Clarke

Re:And, in the 21st century... (4, Insightful)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 9 months ago | (#45898759)

That's why we should elect officials that can't be embarrassed. If you are selling the image of being a squeaky clean family man, you are easily blackmailed. If you are well known for making filthy porn, they can't really sling any mud at you.

here. we. go! (2)

Thud457 (234763) | about 9 months ago | (#45899349)

Weiner / Spitzer 2016!

Re:here. we. go! (2)

cusco (717999) | about 9 months ago | (#45899815)

Larry Flynt/Charlie Sheen

Re:And, in the 21st century... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899365)

Ron Jeremy for president!

Re:And, in the 21st century... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898875)

No such thing as clean. They have enough backdoor ways onto computers that its perfectly easy to log into that clean persons system and dump a little kiddy porn then phone it into the cops anonymously. If you got that level of control, taking down anyone is a joke regardless of what they have or have not done.

Re:And, in the 21st century... (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45899515)

That means that the only people that can actually stop the NSA from doing what they're doing are those so squeaky-clean that they won't want to.

So how did the political establishment manage to make reforms in the 70s after this event? That would seem to let the air out of your theory. And why do you think people with few or no real skeletons in their closet wouldn't want to reform in the case of actual abuses?

Re:And, in the 21st century... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45900755)

So how did the political establishment manage to make reforms in the 70s after this event? That would seem to let the air out of your theory.

And what reforms would those be? I'm only aware of two: 1) Hoover saying "ok we'll stop" [wikipedia.org] , and 2) Attorney General Levi establishing a special review committee within the DOJ [archive.org] to notify COINTELPRO victims. Hardly reformative, eh? And it's not without a little irony that the AG's announcement of this "reform" occured on April 1st.

In fact, many argue there were no meaningful reforms in the 70s (or since); the violations of civil rights simply continued undocumented [wikipedia.org] . Among those critics were FBI agents.

But If you are aware of any real reforms. what were they?

Re:And, in the 21st century... (1)

inode_buddha (576844) | about 9 months ago | (#45900031)

The problem with digging up dirt is, you get dirty doing it. Something that Cold Fjord would do well to keep in mind.

Re:And, in the 21st century... (1)

houghi (78078) | about 9 months ago | (#45900131)

That means that the only people that can actually stop the NSA from doing what they're doing are those so squeaky-clean that they won't want to.

Not only they, but everybody they care about. And even if they are completely clean, you can start rumors and the media will do the rest.

Re:And, in the 21st century... (1)

LordLucless (582312) | about 9 months ago | (#45902277)

I don't think you understand COINTELPRO's purpose - even if they are squeaky clean (or at least, clean enough you can't find sufficiently juicy dirt on them), you can still frame them, lie about them, and spread misinformation via the press.

Back when people cared (2)

edibobb (113989) | about 9 months ago | (#45898709)

Now the FBI blatantly spies on everybody, including political groups, and nobody cares enough to stop them. The FBI doesn't even consider law enforcement their primary job any more. Now it's "national security".

Interesting part (1)

BringsApples (3418089) | about 9 months ago | (#45898733)

The interesting part that I found was this:

It was not until years later that reporters identified the term (COINTELPRO) as referring to a secret program, carried out from 1966-71, to cultivate a culture of distrust in which dissidents feared not just the government, but also one another.

Seems like the hatred that a lot of Americans have for Americans is so extreme, it almost seems cultivated by way of plan. I'm not aware if Snowden has released any info pertaining to this. Does anyone else know?

Re:Interesting part (4, Interesting)

the gnat (153162) | about 9 months ago | (#45899261)

Seems like the hatred that a lot of Americans have for Americans is so extreme, it almost seems cultivated by way of plan. I'm not aware if Snowden has released any info pertaining to this.

I've read allegations elsewhere that the FBI has infiltrated the Occupy movement - whether these have any basis in fact, I have no idea. They've certainly infiltrated other extreme-left groups at times, but most of these are bush league affairs. However, there's scant evidence that the government ever resumed the kind of insanity that Hoover engaged in, which was really unique to Hoover. They've done no shortage of other sleazy stuff, but the combination of Watergate and revelations like the ones resulting from this burglary were pretty successful in putting the FBI out of the business of internal politics - as far as we know.

In any case, the demonization of "the other" in American politics - or any other country - has been going on for decades if not centuries, and is usually done openly. Rush Limbaugh built his career on it, among many others. We get a somewhat blinkered view of what it was like in the past, simply because most of us weren't around to remember the vitriol, and all we get is the historical summaries. I seriously doubt that Americans hate each other any more than they did in the 1960s, or much earlier, and in some cases, such as anti-immigration activists, the modern version is considerably milder. I heartily recommend the book "Nixonland" for a more comprehensive view of what American politics were like back then; the Tea Party movement seems almost quaint in comparison.

Re:Interesting part (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 9 months ago | (#45903089)

The timeline surround US gov interest in political groups seemed to then move to the right.
What COINTELPRO did to the anti war and law reform groups PATCON (~Patriot-conspiracy) did on the US 'right'.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/18/patriot_games [foreignpolicy.com]
Snowden's whistleblowing helped people understand https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intelligence-laundering [eff.org] i.e. "Parallel construction" via a vast long term domestic spying program.
Finally thanks to Snowden you have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora [wikipedia.org] - the UK showing it can do the "entire" internet.

Prosecute the traitors (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898817)

Traitors, all of them. Hope those commies get the death penalty.

Some groups are monolithic. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45898993)

99% of black voters voted for Obama.

Re:Some groups are monolithic. (1)

couchslug (175151) | about 9 months ago | (#45902401)

"99% of black voters voted for Obama."

The GOP is the Dixiecrat Party and except for a few chumps/Uncle Toms (the term has a specific meaning) Blacks, even the slowest, get that Republicans basically "hate their fucking guts".

There is no Big Tent GOP.

And the entire reason they come forward not listed (4, Informative)

rahvin112 (446269) | about 9 months ago | (#45899029)

And the summary willfully leaves out the reason they came forward. They came forward as a show of support for Snowden.

Re:And the entire reason they come forward not lis (-1, Troll)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | about 9 months ago | (#45899599)

I watched the news interview with the husband and wife. One counterargument that separates what they did from what Snowden did is that they were responsible enough to "minimize harm." THEY were activists attacking illegal programs the FBI was engaged in. Snowden has gone beyond that to leaking details of our espionage operations overseas that serves absolutely no purpose than chest-thumping hacker braggadocio. Snowden has made it apparent he had no game plan other than getting in, taking whatever he could, and dumping it for the world to see.

And, that goes beyond activism to vandalism.

Re:And the entire reason they come forward not lis (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899863)

What you describe is almost the polar opposite of what Snowden actually did.

Re:And the entire reason they come forward not lis (1)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 9 months ago | (#45900557)

The overseas operations that Snowden released are quite unnerving as well.

Re:And the entire reason they come forward not lis (3)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45899713)

They came forward as a show of support for Snowden.

That appears to be false, unless you can point to something more direct.

Burglars Who Took On F.B.I. Abandon Shadows [nytimes.com]

Mr. Forsyth, now 63, and other members of the group can no longer be prosecuted for what happened that night, and they agreed to be interviewed before the release this week of a book written by one of the first journalists to receive the stolen documents. The author, Betty Medsger, a former reporter for The Washington Post, spent years sifting through the F.B.I.’s voluminous case file on the episode and persuaded five of the eight men and women who participated in the break-in to end their silence.

The article and video discuss similarities, but I don't believe that either attributes the motivation as support for Snowden. It appears to be directly tied to the book coming out.

Re:And the entire reason they come forward not lis (1)

Darinbob (1142669) | about 9 months ago | (#45901469)

I see no evidence that this is the case, and it directly contradicts the articles about this story.

Enemies: A History of the FBI (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899163)

http://www.amazon.com/Enemies-History-FBI-Tim-Weiner/dp/0812979230/ref=sr_1_1/181-1036002-7607558?ie=UTF8&qid=1389202204&sr=8-1&keywords=enemies+history+of+the+fbi

A sobering and interesting read. Too scary for Teaparty members, however.

This finally answers Yossarian's question! (4, Funny)

Opyros (1153335) | about 9 months ago | (#45899371)

"Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?"

And, it still goes on (1)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | about 9 months ago | (#45899527)

There was a interesting vignette from Fahrenheit 9/11 where a local police department "infiltrates" an anti-war group (composed of middle-aged and older activists not engaged in anything illegal except objecting to the Iraq invasion) and the undercover agent actually gets himself elected leader.

Individuals mattered then, matter now (1)

ansak (80421) | about 9 months ago | (#45899561)

This story is a tribute to the enduring ability of the small actions of individuals to effect real change. What opportunities are we all missing because we've already decided that it's just too hard? Let imaginations run wilder once more!

cheers...ank

Hopefully... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45899671)

Hopefully, the statute of limitations will keep these fine citizens from becomming the next Aaron Swartz!

Revealed FBI attempt to blackmail MLK into suicide (4, Interesting)

Memophage (88273) | about 9 months ago | (#45899837)

"Among the grim litany of revelations was a blackmail letter F.B.I. agents had sent anonymously to the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., threatening to expose his extramarital affairs if he did not commit suicide."

From the NY Times Article [nytimes.com]

The corollary to the "you shouldn't worry if you don't have anything to hide" argument apparently is "you'd better not ever have anything to hide or the government will use it against you".

Re:Revealed FBI attempt to blackmail MLK into suic (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45902087)

... you shouldn't worry if you don't have anything to hide ...

I think the corollary involves negating the consequences: If you are hiding something, you should worry the government will use it against you.

What people mean when they say "if you've got nothing to hide ..." is 'only criminals want privacy'. This is more insidious than 'national security' and 'think of the children' because it uses the 'tough on crime' meme to strip citizens of many rights in one brief splurge of self-righteous judgement.

In all these years it has only got worse. (1)

Ralph Ostrander (2846785) | about 9 months ago | (#45899853)

Amerika makes China and Russia proud. I only wish I were not communist brainwashed by the likes of Reagan and other American administrations. Now you folks are just as hoodwinked over terrorist. Lies and deception for power and control. It all really means sadly self government experiment is a failure.

It's Obama's fault! (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 9 months ago | (#45902647)

If he has a time-machine to alter birth announcements, then he has the ability to stop 1971 breaches.

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