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Russia Backs Sending Top Students Abroad With a Catch

samzenpus posted about 6 months ago | from the from-russia-with-lunch-money dept.

Education 167

First time accepted submitter Clark Schultz writes "Vladimir Putin plans to send the country's top domestic students abroad in an effort to prepare engineers, doctors, and scientists with the most modern education. The initiative comes with a catch: Students must return to Mother Russia to work. Though critics say that the students may be tempted to stay abroad after receiving their advanced degrees, Putin is confident they will be properly motivated to keep up their end of the bargain. As one advocate notes, the 'brilliant' practice of educating Russians at top global universities dates back to the times of Peter the Great."

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The actual catch... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45980865)

Just don't come back gay.

The actual catch is ... (-1, Troll)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about 6 months ago | (#45980929)

... the world out there will NOT believe in you when they know you are from Russia, or China.

Trust me, I've been through this, for the past few decades.

Re:The actual catch is ... (5, Interesting)

vikingpower (768921) | about 6 months ago | (#45980985)

China - I can understand. But for Russians ? I worked with several Russians, all of them very-good-to-brilliant programmers and scientists. They had no trouble in getting recognition for their work and skills. Could you expound a bit on your remark ?

Re:The actual catch is ... (-1, Troll)

aralin (107264) | about 6 months ago | (#45981241)

I don't think we are talking about Computer Science. There are three universities in Russia (1 in Moscow and 2 in St. Petersburg) that are all better in Computer Science than any university in US.

Re:The actual catch is ... (2)

vikingpower (768921) | about 6 months ago | (#45981479)

That's what I meant. I work with a guy who is about 70 years old. He had a mathematics degree from one of those universities, and then later also did CS, "just for fun". In spite of his age, the man is brilliant. So... we would be talking about language studies ? Humanities ? Sociology, psychology and so on ?

Re:The actual catch is ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982883)

in spite of? unless the man had dementia, why would you assume less intelligence because of advanced age? if anything, i think the experience and wisdom that come with age would only improve upon his brilliance.

Re: The actual catch is ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981563)

Like those crapholes Stanford, Cornell, Purdue, Georgia Tech, Harvard, and MIT?

Re: The actual catch is ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982879)

Yes, those. They come in at somewhere after the russian ones. There might be some others in between, but at least some of the ones you mentioned fit in the top10 easily.

also at a lower cost then US University (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 6 months ago | (#45981685)

also at a lower cost then US University with out the big loans.

Re:The actual catch is ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981793)

I don't think we are talking about Computer Science. There are three universities in Russia (1 in Moscow and 2 in St. Petersburg) that are all better in Computer Science than any university in US.

LOL; ROFL.

Re:The actual catch is ... (2)

WindBourne (631190) | about 6 months ago | (#45981871)

I don't think we are talking about Computer Science. There are three universities in Russia (1 in Moscow and 2 in St. Petersburg) that are all better in Computer Science than any university in US.

Hmmmm. [huffingtonpost.com]
And carrying it further. [shanghairanking.com]

Re:The actual catch is ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982933)

Heh. These, and every other ranking I've ever seen, are seriously twisted to favour western universities. Not to talk about a serious twist to usually favour those universities that have "all" fields under one roof (which does make sense in some way, but not for a student in a given field looking for the very best _education_ )
Also, knowing the chinese, and how they study, I'd say they have somehow gamed the ranking system. The students in china cheat. It happens in good universities, and nobody gives a damn.

Re:The actual catch is ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981927)

Putin probably does not care that much about actual kids who would go abroad. However, the chance to do it for free would greatly stimulate the rest of the population (abroad is still a candy for many Russians). That's the goal - make education cool again.
As per your original point, yes Russian universities are good (and some - usually the best - still provide free education for most of former republics).

Re:The actual catch is ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981055)

Or maybe it's simply your shitty personality?

It's your attitude, my friend. Your attitude. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981231)

It's not because you're Chinese. It's because you're CONSTANTLY going on about how you left China decades ago, and how you're a naturalized U.S. citizen, and other crap like that.

If you're endlessly bringing that up here at Slashdot (your comment history is excellent proof of what I'm saying, by the way), you're probably doing it offline, too. That'll annoy people to no end.

I don't know how to put this politely, but if the people you're referring to are anything like the people here, we just want you to shut the hell up about you leaving China and becoming a naturalized U.S. citizen. We really don't care that you're Chinese; we do care that you're annoying us.

Re:The actual catch is ... (5, Insightful)

Roger W Moore (538166) | about 6 months ago | (#45981657)

... the world out there will NOT believe in you when they know you are from Russia

Really? All of my Russian colleagues in physics are incredibly talented and well trained and have great senses of humor too! Based on this experience I'd have zero hesitation in accepting a suitably skilled Russian grad student and I hope this programme causes more of them to apply to my institute. If they have to go back to work in Russia afterwards then that's not a bad thing - science it a global enterprise and it will undoubtedly help Russia build ties with the global community is is good for everyone.

Re:The actual catch is ... (-1, Flamebait)

fast turtle (1118037) | about 6 months ago | (#45981843)

The big problem with Russian Grad Students is "Not enough Wodka in my Coffee Checkov!"

Re:The actual catch is ... (5, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about 6 months ago | (#45981741)

I'm Russian in "the world out there", and I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. No-one had ever looked down on me because of my national origin.

Have you considered that the problem might actually be with yourself?

Seems reasonable (4, Insightful)

mirix (1649853) | about 6 months ago | (#45980877)

If they don't want to go back to Russia, they don't have to accept the grants.

I'm not really seeing a problem here?

Re:Seems reasonable (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981039)

Surely since it is Putin: if they don't want to come back it is fine as long as they don't mind their tea tasting of Polonium.

Re:Seems reasonable (3, Insightful)

Mister Transistor (259842) | about 6 months ago | (#45981227)

Or if they want their families let go upon their return...

"confident they will be properly motivated" (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981337)

Perhaps Putin will find new ways to motivate them.

Re:"confident they will be properly motivated" (1)

darnkitten (1533263) | about 6 months ago | (#45981863)

Aren't we calling him Tsar Vladimir yet?

Re:"confident they will be properly motivated" (2)

KiloByte (825081) | about 6 months ago | (#45982067)

Well, he already has the crown [theguardian.com] .

Re:"confident they will be properly motivated" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982159)

Or Darth Vladimir...

Re:Seems reasonable (5, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | about 6 months ago | (#45981051)

Actually, they have apparently been accepting grants all along, for many years, but never coming back.

The new decree (Do they not pass laws over there?) simply says:

Students who earned bachelor's degrees in Russian universities may enter leading [foreign] universities... and be eligible for financial support from the government.
If these students would like to stay overseas after graduation, they would have to pay a hefty amount to Russia that would include all the money spent on the education plus a fine twice as large as this amount.

Good luck collecting, unless they want to hire a boat load of lawyers in each country students go to. (If they thought US tuition was high, wait till they see US lawyer bills). Maybe they will get the parents to co-sign these grants so they can at least threaten to put the parents in the hot seat if young Doctor Ivan doesn't come back.

With US student loans defaulting at a rate of 10% [ed.gov] they are just as likely to learn bad habits here.

On the other hand if you can legally wipe out all or most of your student loans by getting a good paying job in Russia (by virtue of your prestigious foreign doctorate), it just might work.
It all depends on the job and pay opportunities at home, and how much of the government loans will be forgiven. It might be pretty hard to pay back a western sized debt on a Russian sized salary unless most or all of it were forgiven by the Russian Government.

 

Re:Seems reasonable (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981201)

Actually, they have apparently been accepting grants all along, for many years, but never coming back.

The new decree (Do they not pass laws over there?) simply says:

Students who earned bachelor's degrees in Russian universities may enter leading [foreign] universities... and be eligible for financial support from the government.
If these students would like to stay overseas after graduation, they would have to pay a hefty amount to Russia that would include all the money spent on the education plus a fine twice as large as this amount.

Good luck collecting, unless they want to hire a boat load of lawyers in each country students go to. (If they thought US tuition was high, wait till they see US lawyer bills). Maybe they will get the parents to co-sign these grants so they can at least threaten to put the parents in the hot seat if young Doctor Ivan doesn't come back.

With US student loans defaulting at a rate of 10% [ed.gov] they are just as likely to learn bad habits here.

On the other hand if you can legally wipe out all or most of your student loans by getting a good paying job in Russia (by virtue of your prestigious foreign doctorate), it just might work.
It all depends on the job and pay opportunities at home, and how much of the government loans will be forgiven. It might be pretty hard to pay back a western sized debt on a Russian sized salary unless most or all of it were forgiven by the Russian Government.

France for instance not only subsidizes students that enter the top univerisities (ecole polytechnique and ecole normale superieur among others) but it also pays the students a stipend. The catch is that once you graduate you owe the French state 10 years of your life. After that you can enter if you want the private sector, but the first ten years must be given back to the public sector. Else you must reimburse the money the French state invested in your education. And you can bet your ass they do come after you if you don't uphold your end of the bargain.
Russia is doing nothing alien. They pay for their student's education, even paying their stay abroad. It is only natural those students give back to the Russian state some years of their lives.
Only in the US (temple of individuality) does the state subsidize your studies (if you're fortunate enough) but then you are not compelled to give back. Individuality taken to the extreme, and then we ask ourselves why all the worlds big problems stem from that country.

Re:Seems reasonable (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981919)

Only in the US (temple of individuality) does the state subsidize your studies (if you're fortunate enough) but then you are not compelled to give back. Individuality taken to the extreme, and then we ask ourselves why all the worlds big problems stem from that country.

The US actually has several such programs, like the ROTC, GI Bill, or the various doctors and nurses programs for Western states.

Re:Seems reasonable (2)

JanneM (7445) | about 6 months ago | (#45982197)

Only in the US (temple of individuality) does the state subsidize your studies (if you're fortunate enough) but then you are not compelled to give back. Individuality taken to the extreme, and then we ask ourselves why all the worlds big problems stem from that country.

Sweden doesn't require it either. University is effectively free, and you get a part-stipend, part-loan for your living expenses. If you go abroad to study the stipend and loan will follow. You do need to pay back the loan (in proportion to your income), but other than that there's no strings attached, even if you decide to move abroad right after graduation.

Which really makes sense. Most people that move abroad end up returning at some point - bringing a valuable load of work experience, skills and contacts back to Sweden. And the people that stay abroad become contacts for people and businesses back in Sweden. Having people leave is overall a large net win for the country even if some end up never returning.

Re:Seems reasonable (1, Insightful)

CommanderK (1078087) | about 6 months ago | (#45982779)

University is effectively free, and you get a part-stipend, part-loan for your living expenses

It's not effectively free, you just pay for it later through higher taxes (schools cost money to operate, and that money has to come from somewhere).

Re:Seems reasonable (1)

celle (906675) | about 6 months ago | (#45982617)

"Only in the US (temple of individuality) does the state subsidize your studies (if you're fortunate enough) but then you are not compelled to give back. Individuality taken to the extreme, and then we ask ourselves why all the worlds big problems stem from that country."

    We certainly do give back via taxation. There's a saying in this country "The only thing you can count on is death and taxes."

Re:Seems reasonable (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982645)

> Only in the US (temple of individuality) does the state subsidize your studies (if you're fortunate enough) but then you are not compelled to give back. Individuality taken to the extreme, and then we ask ourselves why all the worlds big problems stem from that country.

What do you think a student loan is?

Re:Seems reasonable (2)

CommanderK (1078087) | about 6 months ago | (#45982773)

In the case of the US, a legal mechanism already exists to force foreign students to return to their countries. If a student studies in the US on a J1 visa, he/she cannot get another visa from certain categories (like J1 and H1B) or a green card for 2 years after the J1 expires. There's a way to get an exemption from this, but it requires that the student's own government signs off on it.

Re:Seems reasonable (4, Interesting)

AlphaWolf_HK (692722) | about 6 months ago | (#45981257)

They could probably just levy the fines as a tax, and have them extradited for tax evasion through existing tax treaties.

The US already does something similar, and there is a large body of signing countries to this convention. If you live abroad you still have to pay US taxes even if you never make use of any US services. If you renounce your citizenship, you have to pay the US government a large tax as if you have sold every single asset that you presently own (so basically 30% of everything you have) plus some other fees and levies - if you don't do this, then the US will have you extradited and jailed. (This is why those complaining about those ex-patriots who renounced their citizenship to avoid future taxation have unfounded complaints - they already had to pay more than their pre-existing dues just to renounce their citizenship; they just want to avoid paying future taxes to a government that doesn't provide any services to them whatsoever.)

Re:Seems reasonable (5, Informative)

w_dragon (1802458) | about 6 months ago | (#45981767)

The US is about the only country that taxes citizens regardless of where they live and work. Which leads to a fun situation where the kids of US citizens born abroad are considered natural US citizens and expected to file taxes, but may not be eligible to vote depending on which state their parents were from. Taxation without representation.

Re:Seems reasonable (1)

billakay (1607221) | about 6 months ago | (#45982269)

The US is about the only country that taxes citizens regardless of where they live and work. Which leads to a fun situation where the kids of US citizens born abroad are considered natural US citizens and expected to file taxes, but may not be eligible to vote depending on which state their parents were from. Taxation without representation.

Citation for this? I don't think that any US Citizen can be denied the vote based on the nationality/residency of their parents.

Re:Seems reasonable (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982533)

Wait a minute. If you live abroad and earn income, yes, you do have to file US tax paperwork. However, if you paid foreign taxes on those foreign wages, then you do get US tax credit. So only if those foreign taxes are lower than the US (usually not!) then do you have to pay the difference.

Source: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Tax-Credit

Never challenge lawyers to a battle of lawsuits (1)

EngineeringStudent (3003337) | about 6 months ago | (#45982257)

You didn't just tell Russia that it can't use international law, did you. Are you really daring Lawyers to not be able to do something using the law??

Re:Never challenge lawyers to a battle of lawsuits (1)

icebike (68054) | about 6 months ago | (#45982547)

Look, cops aren't going to chase all over hell rounding up people for skipping out on a student loan.
Its a civil matter, and we have enough of our own criminals to catch, let alone Russian absconders.

Hell, our cops won't even round up terrorists when Russian security tells us they are dangerous, instead we let them bomb marathons.

Re:Seems reasonable (2)

s.petry (762400) | about 6 months ago | (#45982567)

Well, you do realize that you have family still in Russia who may be subject to pay your fines in lieu of you paying the fines.

That said, I think Russia has been in a different direction since the USSR broke apart. Still corrupt, still messed up, but the have been slowly moving in the right direction.

Meanwhile, we have the US and Europe which has been steadily moving in the wrong direction. Freedom has been diminishing and continues to be eroded. The US is very much hit or miss on liberty today and getting worse. The haves keep getting more and the rest keep getting screwed not just in the US, but look at pretty much all of the EU.

I'd still rather live here than there, but the point of that message is that it will be easier for Russia to retain people. Free is no longer "Free" in Europe or the US, and we are steadily declining while they seem to be slowly improving.

Re:Seems reasonable (1)

Chemisor (97276) | about 6 months ago | (#45981069)

If they don't go back to Russia, what penalty can they suffer? Emigration is not a crime, so they would not be extradited. Considering the joblessness, poverty, and employer dishonesty throughout Russia who would go back if they don't have to? However, these problems are gradually spreading over the rest of the world as well, so at some point in the near future Russia will look no worse than any other country.

Re:Seems reasonable (2)

sjames (1099) | about 6 months ago | (#45981225)

In the U.S. there are some grants for med school that stipulate practicing in under served rural areas for a time after becoming a doctor. If you don't put in the time you have to pay back the grant.

Re:Seems reasonable (2, Insightful)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about 6 months ago | (#45981255)

If they don't go back to Russia, what penalty can they suffer?

Polonium. Straight up, or on the rocks.

Re:Seems reasonable (1)

AlphaWolf_HK (692722) | about 6 months ago | (#45981261)

No, but tax evasion is, if they do what I described in a previous post.

Re:Seems reasonable (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981391)

If they don't go back to Russia, what penalty can they suffer?

Okay, look, here's how it really works. (I have many many Russian colleagues.)

Many Russians are very good artists and scientists and... they're awesome in lots of things, okay? (Well, they've got a pretty big population, so it stands to reason that there would be many talented people.) And often they go abroad for college, as many people do, only to find that jobs pay massively better anywhere else. Consider academics [insidehighered.com] -- adjusted for cost of living, a top of the line Russian professor earns about 1/5th! that of an entry level academic in the US. Therefore, they tend to stay outside of Russia when they're done with their studies. But they have family in Russia, so they visit often.

That is what this plays off of -- they do go back to Russia. They don't emigrate completely. Heck, they like having the Russian passport. Therefore, you have this thing on your record, you have to come back for work, or you don't get to see your family. Now, from the point of view of most Russians living elsewhere, coming back to Moscow or St. Petersburg or wherever, it's great to be a tourist, but day to day life is just too hard. There have been some efforts to fix this, such as SkolTech, where the Russian government basically did what the Saudis did a few years ago with KAUST -- they saw that their university structure was in shambles, didn't know how to fix the whole country, so sent a ton of money at one place, and hoped it would make a difference. This is the same sort of effort... time will tell if it helps.

Once they come back (2, Interesting)

cyberspittle (519754) | about 6 months ago | (#45980881)

They will be made into nobles. After several generations, there will be a revolution, and cycle will repeat.

This is how it *should* work. (1)

rogoshen1 (2922505) | about 6 months ago | (#45980903)

the whole point of these programs is to kind of 'leapfrog' a country's current level of technology/skill. If the state pays for a student to study abroad (i'm looking at you Saudi Arabia), it should absolutely be implied that the student *should* return home to put those skills to use.

Re:This is how it *should* work. (4, Interesting)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 6 months ago | (#45980941)

It worked for Meiji Japan. They sent off boatloads of students to foreign universities, brought in foreign experts and jumpstarted Japan's industrialization (which was probably the most rapid industrialization in history). In the mid-19th century, Japan was still to a large extent a late Feudal state. By the beginning of the 20th century, it kicked the crap out of the Russians and by WWI was considered a Great Power.

Re:This is how it *should* work. (1)

satuon (1822492) | about 6 months ago | (#45982909)

And now I hear that ordinary Japanese have turned insular again, English knowledge is low, and studying abroad doesn't help your prospects, it harms them.

Re:This is how it *should* work. (3, Insightful)

AHuxley (892839) | about 6 months ago | (#45981137)

All the powerful countries played this game. Students from around the world found their way to the US, Soviet Union/Russia, France, UK for total access to top quality education.
They where to return home with expert skills (linked to the host nations brands), a glowing personal account of their academic and new lifelong friendships.
Over time it was hoped the once young students would move up in their nations public or private power structures reflecting fondly recalling their education and years abroad.
This would give exports from US, Soviet Union, France, UK an edge or direct contact via friends, academics during trade negations, loans, weapons sales, imports, shaping the left or right wing of an emerging country.
The real issue is the total leaking of expensive emerging science and engineering technology over time for 'free' to emerging countries.
"Bob" or "Sally" return home with much more than a degree - long term contacts and sensitive technology finds its way out of top US, Soviet Union/Russia, France, UK institutions over time due to 'funding' pressure.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-08/american-universities-infected-by-foreign-spies-detected-by-fbi.html [bloomberg.com]
Peter the Great is the warning from history - don't let your trade become a flood of raw materials out and have overpriced fashionable trinkets as imports. http://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/the-romanov-dynasty/peter-i/ [rt.com]
The Cold War was is littered with efforts like/under, funding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Committee_on_United_Europe [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Policy_Coordination [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Student_Association [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples'_Friendship_University_of_Russia [wikipedia.org]
Modern art was CIA 'weapon'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html [independent.co.uk] via International Organisations Division (IOD)

Nothing new. (1)

csumpi (2258986) | about 6 months ago | (#45980911)

From the summary:

"educating Russians at top global universities dates back to the times of Peter the Great"

So... what's the point of this story?

.

Re:Nothing new. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45980955)

To let the "nerds" graduating highschool in the next couple of years that they are gonna have some more competition at the good schools

Re:Nothing new. (3, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | about 6 months ago | (#45981101)

So... what's the point of this story?
 

Well, turn it around.

If the US government paid for your education in prestigious foreign universities, and you could have all that debt forgiven by coming home to work, wouldn't you find that attractive?

Re:Nothing new. (4, Insightful)

Aeonym (1115135) | about 6 months ago | (#45981213)

But to complete your comparison, you'd also be able to make 4 or 5 times as much money overseas because wages in the US were considerably lower. In the short term, debt forgiveness is appealing--but in the long term it's a bad deal compared to the extra earnings/savings you could accrue.

Re:Nothing new. (0)

icebike (68054) | about 6 months ago | (#45981367)

You might want to Rethink that [wikipedia.org]

Come home to a high paying US wage, with a pretty low tax rate, AND have your College debt forgiven? Why not. If you insist the grass is greener, you can always work a few years, get the debt forgiven, then move back for the lower paying foreign job and higher tax rates.

Re:Nothing new. (1)

antifoidulus (807088) | about 6 months ago | (#45981491)

There are programs [borenawards.org] like that.

Re:Nothing new. (1)

AK Marc (707885) | about 6 months ago | (#45982519)

It's a stab at Putin acting like a tsar. The "new" thing is that they are looking at better ways to lure them back.

Assuming that there will be jobs for them ... (2)

Alain Williams (2972) | about 6 months ago | (#45980935)

The crying shame in the UK is that many graduates cannot find real jobs and end up flipping burgers. If Putin ensures that they have a good chance of getting a job upon return to Russia - many will find that an attractive proposition and be more than willing to return.

Re:Assuming that there will be jobs for them ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45980989)

Emigrate to Russia then?

Re:Assuming that there will be jobs for them ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45980995)

Job? They come back or family gets sent to gulag - or whatever they're called now.

Re:Assuming that there will be jobs for them ... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981333)

Russia's economy has been booming for years. There is massive foreign investment in Russian industry. Their energy sector is straight up roaring. Russia had fully recovered from the 2008 'crisis' by mid-2010 and kept growing from there. Russia is a creditor nation now, buying the public debt of declining nations, such as the US.

Russian unemployment is about 6%. And that's a legitimate number as well; not like US unemployment figures that are mostly the result of shrinking the size of the workforce to polish the turd that is the US economy.

As far as employment goes it's a good time to be young in Russia. Looking in from the outside our anti-anything-bigger-than-a-hobby-farm types are hate'n on Russia [environmen...affiti.com] , wishing they could shut it down, but they'll just have to wait few decades till the employed and prosperous get comfortable enough for the hate mongering to take hold and pull up the ladder on their youth, as we have.

Re:Assuming that there will be jobs for them ... (1)

PPH (736903) | about 6 months ago | (#45981487)

good chance of getting a job upon return to Russia

Flipping pirozhki?

Re:Assuming that there will be jobs for them ... (2)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about 6 months ago | (#45981753)

There is no shortage of jobs in Russia, at least in IT.

Malaysia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45980957)

Malaysia does the same thing. Send out bright students on a full scholarship to American universities (preferably the cheaper, public schools), with the requirement that they perform a short stint (3-5 years) as an indentured servant of the state.

For foreigners it's generally a good deal, not withstanding the opportunity for corruption in selection. You get a free education and a guaranteed job when you graduate.

But it sucks for Americans as it drives up tuition.

Re:Malaysia (2)

Lanforod (1344011) | about 6 months ago | (#45981035)

Most Universities likely charge higher for international students, so it should actually drive tuition down. International students actually make universities money, local ones... eh, not so much.

Re:Malaysia (1)

Desler (1608317) | about 6 months ago | (#45981085)

Why would it drive tuition down? Do you live in a fantasy world?

Re:Malaysia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981215)

International students are the ones propping up the Australian university system, so if not driving tuition down (it's not), then keeping tuition for local students going up even faster.

Re:Malaysia (2)

icebike (68054) | about 6 months ago | (#45981229)

Most Universities likely charge higher for international students, so it should actually drive tuition down.

The amount of brief cases expands to contain all of the available money.

If I can fill my university seats with high-paying foreigners, why would I not do that more often?
And why would I not jack up resident tuition so as to have more seats available for non-resident foreign students?
An admission is a limited resource. It will tend to get sold to the highest bidder.

This is already happening in some states [nytimes.com] , even in State funded schools.
Of course independent universities, including many of the most prestigious, aren't subject to state laws requiring a certain percentage of admissions being reserved for in-state students.

Re:Malaysia (1)

pete6677 (681676) | about 6 months ago | (#45982175)

College tuition only goes up. And has gone up about 10% annually for the past 15 years. By 2020 top schools will likely be charging $100,000 per year, although nobody will actually pay full price.

If only India, China and Africa would do the same. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45980961)

Still, can't have those damn 'racists' (meaning 'white people') deciding who they live with, can we! Much fairer to have a handful of JEWS deciding for us, and telling us how 'racist' we are for not wanting third world parasites destroying OUR countries... and of course, we couldn't object to having JEWS living among us, could we! After all, a parasite cannot live off of other parasites, and the poor Jews will die if they don't have a 'host' to suck the blood from...

Old (1)

Espectr0 (577637) | about 6 months ago | (#45980981)

This is common practice on lots of countries. In Venezuela this has been going for almost a century (though i don't know the current status since our problem with $$$), they give you a scholarship to study abroad with the condition to come back, otherwise they give you (or your relatives) the bill.

Re:Old (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981193)

This is common practice on lots of countries. In Venezuela this has been going for almost a century (though i don't know the current status since our problem with $$$), they give you a scholarship to study abroad with the condition to come back, otherwise they give you (or your relatives) the bill.

I remember meeting a girl from Singapore back in the early 90's while she was here getting a degree in the USA. A company in Singapore was paying for her education with the expectation that she would repay the debt by being obligated to work 10 years for the company after she graduated. Can you say indentured servant?

Re:Old (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982675)

Can you say indentured servant?

I know the up-and-coming generations expect everything to just be given to them on a silver fucking platter with their silver fucking participation trophy, but REALLY? She gets to travel abroad and have her education paid for. Then she owes a service commitment. What the fuck do you think ROTC is like? Or the GI Bill? Same thing if the Government pays for you to go to school for Foreign Service. Go get a scholarship at any of the academies and you have a service commitment of four years. That is the whole fucking deal; you don't always get something for nothing. It is called RESPONSIBILITY to your OBLIGATIONS. Your mommy and daddy won't be around forever to bail you out and take care of your responsibilities for you, they won't always be able to call your college professors and complain that your brilliant essay should have got an "A" for you. Unless this woman from Singapore was forced against her will to take up this deal, then what the hell? Geeze Louise, I really fear the future when the Entitled Generation comes of age to run the country.

Best of all with this practice... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981001)

Best of all with this practice is that russians aren't hypocrites, at one time they educated foreign people with the same catch, that they would return home and benefit their own populations. Of course, hopefully with some new ideas and as many as possible as KGB/GRU agents.

They WILL come back.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981031)

Or all the loved ones they left behind, will pay for their mistake.

Nothing new here (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981043)

Nothing new here. Many governments run scholarship schemes for study at foreign universities and include a period of bonded labour afterwards. Even the US does this in areas of its strategic interest, such as naval architecture.

Many people from Commonwealth nations studied at Australian, UK and Canadian universities as part of the Colombo Plan for development of poorer Commonwealth nations. This aspect of the Colombo Plan was by far the most successful and there are periodic attempts to revive it.

WWITTD? (2)

uCallHimDrJ0NES (2546640) | about 6 months ago | (#45981063)

Let's ask ourselves: What would Ivan the Terrible do?

Re:WWITTD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982037)

I'd venture to guess that he would send the students to conquer the Mongolian academic establishment, and have them beheaded when they come back, using arbitrary justifications.

Is education really the problem in Russia? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981099)

Why would they want to do that? Russian science and engineering education (especially undergraduate) is top-notch. I would NOT want to have been educated in the States, including the overhyped Harvard or MIT although I do like working and living here. Graduate school is a different matter but it is hard to beleive that the problems with Russian science are education related. Money (or lack thereof) and lack of respect is a more likely cause.

Re:Is education really the problem in Russia? (1)

Khashishi (775369) | about 6 months ago | (#45981533)

Where would you prefer to have been educated (assuming you would prefer education at all)? American universities are rather well regarded and university education is one of USAs major exports.

Re:Is education really the problem in Russia? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981703)

I got my undergraduate education in Russia. No complaints. I teach at an ameican university, so I know what american undergraduate education looks like, on average. As far as exports go, this is not surprising: 1) it is easy to get into an american unirversity, as long as you have money, 2) a lot of other countries have even worse systems. We are talking about STEM (as it is fashionably called nowadays) education, so it very well may be that american univerisities provide excellent non-STEM education. As far as the STEM portion of it goes, the high school I went to (long time ago, admittedly, in Russia) taught more mathematics and science than our mathematics majors learn by their junior year. I had classes in chemistry (both organic and inorganc, two semesters each), physics (six semestes, including quantm mechanics and relativity, thermodynamics, electromagnetics, and optics), mathematics (starting with what is called `college geometry' here, calculus (1.5 so to speak), and algebra (including some simple group and graph theory)), biology (from btany to simple genetics). Oh, and six hours of electronics lab on Saturdays. I did not really have much social life (some not much) and have no regrets about it. College more than made up for that. The concept of proof in mathematics was ingrained in the seventh grade and I teach math seniors here who are scared of proofs.

The graduate education in the US IS excellent, however, mostly because we are not afraid to fail those who do not perform. There is a lot of talent in the US and at the graduate level the chance to interact with such a diverse (academically) faculty is invaluable for a graduate student.

Re:Is education really the problem in Russia? (3, Interesting)

Lamps (2770487) | about 6 months ago | (#45981759)

Gotta agree, to a large extent, with the AC above. US universities often seem to be a much more serious proposition at the grad level than at the undergrad level, although this can vary quite a bit from university to another, and from one concentration/major to another. US universities' reputations have more to do with their ability to provide a heavy duty grad (i.e. professionalizing) education and with their research output than they do with their undergrad offerings (which is often a hand-holding jog, buffeted by rampant grade inflation (lest someone not get his tenure due to somebody being upset about their grade)). Having spoken to people from Eastern Europe, I get the impression that their schools have less tolerance for sub-par performance and less grade inflation, and come exam time, you are expected to know your stuff exceptionally well.

However, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, E. European professors tend to be underpaid (something they share with their colleagues in other countries, but it's obviously quite a bit less harsh here), which results in high levels of bribery - you can either really earn your diploma, or you can buy your diploma. Amazingly, even med schools and engineering schools seem to be susceptible to this problem.

Student debt (1)

Livius (318358) | about 6 months ago | (#45981107)

Pay for the education through student loans.

Then Russia owns them forever, just like regular creditors.

Re:Student debt (1)

kaka.mala.vachva (1164605) | about 6 months ago | (#45981185)

What do you think the army does?

Student who don't come back (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981155)

Will find an alarming drop in relatives answering their skype calls.

It is the standard contract (3, Insightful)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | about 6 months ago | (#45981273)

It is very common. In fact you don't even have to go abroad. Government of India paid me full pay and benefits of a gazetted [*] officer for my Masters in Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore. With the stipulation I work of the Ministry of Defense for three years after completing the degree. If I quit earlier I had to pay back the salary received during the study period. That is all.

[*] Gazetted officers are the civilian equivalent of the commissioned officers. Induction to the service by the President published in The Gazette of the Government of India. I had the right to sign government documents and files in green ink. My batch mates are under secretaries and joint secretaries of the government now. I am a lowly slashdotter with 31 achievements.

Re:It is the standard contract (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981957)

In Brazil it's pretty much the same, except it's only valid if you travel abroad AFAIK. If the government pays you to study overseas you must come back and stay in the country for an equal period. If you breach the contract you must pay back the money you received until that point. If you refuse to pay the other person who signed the contract (e.g. a parent/brother/etc) will have to. If once again they refuse to pay and are abroad then I suppose the government is just glad to be rid of them.

I don't see the catch here. It isn't like it's a secret and they're free to study overseas from their own pockets if they prefer.

Well it's not like they could get a visa to stay (1)

ajdub (520241) | about 6 months ago | (#45981303)

in the US if they wanted to. So why not? Hell, they could partner with the State Department for stateside enforcement on this whole "get educated in the US, contribute to the economy back home" scheme.

Re:Well it's not like they could get a visa to sta (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981757)

in the US if they wanted to. So why not? Hell, they could partner with the State Department for stateside enforcement on this whole "get educated in the US, contribute to the economy back home" scheme.

I don't think they're talking about the US, nobody wants to be trapped in that hole.

Re:Well it's not like they could get a visa to sta (1)

CommanderK (1078087) | about 6 months ago | (#45982749)

That actually exists, it's the J1 visa. It has a 2-year period where you can't get another US visa (from certain categories, like J1 and H1B), and the only way to get an exemption is with approval from your own country.

Why train your enemy? (1)

amightywind (691887) | about 6 months ago | (#45981339)

I say we cut Russian and Chinese student VISAs until their countries behave more reasonably. Why train your enemy?

Re:Why train your enemy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982069)

That's about as good an idea as cutting funding for US gradstudents in the sciences (who usually have their education plus living expenses paid on government grants) until the US government starts behaving reasonably on other matters. Personally, I think that's a fucking stupid idea (then again, I'm a bit biased, as someone who just completed a PhD funded by NSF grants, but doesn't work towards supporting the "unreasonable" things the government does). But, maybe you think a world with fewer scientists would be a better place, or one where the highly educated are isolated from personal international experience (so all those Russian and Chinese grads will only get to learn about the US through the distant filter of Russian and Chinese media propaganda --- I suppose that would put them on more equal footing with the typical US citizen who has also never seen the world except through megacorporate media fabrications).

Captcha: subverts

Similar to Vietnam (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981381)

Vietnam has a similar scheme where they issue scholarships to western countries (eg. Australia). I'm familar with the Vietnam-Australia version and this is how it works. The Vietnamese/Australian government have these joint scholarships, from memory they were pronounced as "OZ" scholarship, but I've never seen how it's spelt.

After the students complete their studies, they are expected to return home and work for at least a year (or two?) before being allowed to work outside Vietnam. This is written down on their scholarship contract and the time is tracked. To discourage Vietnamese students from simply staying in Australia, they are forced to leave for at least 1 year (or two?) before re-entering the country. Where they go Australia doesn't care, as long as they're out of the country.

This sounds all good in theory but in practice a lot of Vietnamese students rather not go back home to work. Simply because after having tasted the good life they do not want to go back. And more so if they pursued an academic career, because it's non-existent back home.

In Soviet Russia ... (4, Insightful)

PPH (736903) | about 6 months ago | (#45981413)

... student loans collect you!

Motivation is all you need (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45981463)

These days you can just buy textbooks, read them, watch youtube videos, go online to ask questions, and learn just about anything you want that you would learn from a university. OK, some exceptions maybe, for instance, labwork experience but you don't need an expensive fancy university for that, your local community college or university can do just fine. You can get just as good an education at your local university as you could at a prestigious foreign one but you need to have interest and ambition.

Yes I am college educated but almost all of what I know isn't from school. I speak three languages just about, almost none of that is from school (one from my parents that I learned as a child, Spanish from Youtube, watching T.V., the radio, podcasts, various books such as verb conjugation books, an English to Spanish dictionary, grammar books, etc...). What I know about cryptography came from hours and hours of podcasts and lots and lots of reading. Yes, when it comes to things like physics and chemistry it helps to have a lab and have the tools that school provides to give you some preliminary experience but one doesn't need a super fancy expensive school for that.

In Soviet Russia, They test YOU! (1)

Thor Ablestar (321949) | about 6 months ago | (#45982221)

Before Putin, the testing of school graduates had a form of individual exams and essays performed by teachers. Now, in attempts to exclude corruption, the automated formal tests (YEGE - Yedinyi Gosudarstvennyi Ekzamen - The Uniform State Exam) are performed. The graduates just mark the numbers of correct answers.

I am not going to discuss the destruction of rational thinking by training the children to choose the only correct answer, especially when there is a political course such as history. I just inform you that the HIGHEST grades were obtained by peasants from Northern Caucasian republics such as Chechnya, Ingushetia and Daghestan (Remember Tsarnaev?). As a result, since the students are accepted to institutes according to YEGE only, they were accepted to institutes and it became clear that their grades are FAKE. And since it appeared impossible to eradicate corruption in Caucasian schools the only result was that the Russian institutes required the right to reinstate the entry exams, and some leading institutes obtained such a right. All other institutes accept them and just sell the good marks and diplomas.

Putin's Russia (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982525)

I'm Russian and I came to America originally to study but I'll never go back as long as Putin's in power. Besides my programming job here pays way more than I'd make at home and the weather in California rocks!

Gulag 4 u (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#45982651)

Putin will murder your family if you don't return.

Back to the old Soviet Russia days (1)

russotto (537200) | about 6 months ago | (#45982683)

Ah, Comrade Putin, he is bringing back another practice of the USSR: defection.

Scary (1)

morgauxo (974071) | about 6 months ago | (#45982823)

Putin is confident they will be "properly motivated"

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