Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Ogg The Conqueror? RC2 Is Out

timothy posted about 13 years ago | from the lo-there-was-much-rejoicing dept.

Music 329

jonathan_ingram writes: "There has been a lot of discussion recently in Slashdot about sound compression formats. Much has been focused on Ogg Vorbis, but the most recent version available has been a beta released in Feburary. Today, RC2 of Vorbis has been released. The most important of the many changes is channel coupling, which means that Vorbis can now encode bitsteams at a much lower bitrate than before. Try it out today!"

cancel ×

329 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Why use ogg vorbis? (4, Insightful)

bani (467531) | about 13 years ago | (#2115090)

If your apathy leads you down the path of least resistance (mp3, microsoft windows, insert-proprietary-patented-method-here), you are doing your part to ensure the dominance of bad companies and bad patents.

Think of it like voting. Your apathy will cost you your freedom.

Why Ogg is important (5, Insightful)

SirSlud (67381) | about 13 years ago | (#2119533)

I see alot of posts basically asking the question:

"I don't think Ogg is as good as compression X, so why use it?"

Answers:

- You don't have to use it. Just support it. Be aware of it's existance. One day, it may be better than compression X.

- Should MP3 technology get hijacked by the corperate world (more so than it is today), we have an alternative that works, even if you feel it isn't the best sound in the world.

- Two researchers working on the same goal in different streams and parts of the world is a Good Thing (tm). Prevents information hoarding and management on bahalf of corperate interests.

(going off memory for the rest of this, maybe I'm wrong in some claims)

Interestingly enough, XP includes an mp3 encoder, but it only encodes up to some stupidly low bitrate (128? 64?). Since many people won't go out looking for another encoder, they will blindly encode at low bitrates.

Ironically, in the long run, I think mp3s popularity will help Ogg .. if people are unhappy with mp3s (they'll be unhappy with the low bitrate in the XP-bundled encoder, but same difference to the average Joe), they will search for an alternative. Hark! Ogg to the rescue!

People will always look at the "is X better than Y" when comparing technologies. What they are missing is that many, many industries are as far ahead as they are right now due to competing projects by seperate scientific/mathematical efforts. Finally, seperate projects also allow for validation of efforts. If, in some far off evil world, mp3s patent owner X says, "I can't improve sound quality, because that would break this and that.", a seperate camp of researchers can say, "bullshit! you're just saying that because MS is paying to help drive users to windows media". Or whatever the case may be.

The value of parallel research is almost always more than the sum of the parts.

Re:Why Ogg is important (1)

Langolier (470727) | about 13 years ago | (#2125552)

Regarding the MP3 encoding included with Windows, I was just looking at Windows ME media player, and it will record into "MP3". However, any MP3 it creates will have a licence key in it, and will not play on any other computer than the one it was created on. Or perhaps it isn't even MP3 - perhaps it is in Windows Media format. So Windows currently makes it easy to save tracks from CDs, but only in a non-portable format. .

MS's encoder (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2136848)

You made a small mistake. XP's MP3 encoder does only work up to some small bitrate. But MS doesn't want you to put up with bad sounding MP3's. They want you to switch over to WMA8 which isn't encumbered with bitrate limits and allows you to make better sounding music files. This of course has the effect of locking you into using MS's software. Is there a player for WMA for Linux?

Re:Why Ogg is important (2, Insightful)

ergo98 (9391) | about 13 years ago | (#2144397)

Throughout the history of time people have brought up an alternative to entrenched products, and naturally people ask the same question "Why should I switch?" While it's often seems like a no-brainer for the "salesperson", it really is a completely valid question that deserves a valid answer. If product A & B are functionally equal and today I am use to product A and product B's only advantage is that it's not product A, well then most people will say "thanks but no thanks". This is the problem that Linux faces on the desktop, and the simple reality is that saying that Microsoft might request the organs of your firstborn at some future point isn't enough to push most people to adopt something new.

This same opposition to change is the reason why Windows Media's format hasn't taken off: People are use to MP3s, and they already have their collection. Even with MS saying it's 1/2 the size for the same quality level, to most users that's barely adequate to make it worthwhile to change.

Ogg V in the WSJ - (2, Informative)

jackDuhRipper (67743) | about 13 years ago | (#2119694)

Just FYI -

Don't know if it's online, too, but there's a nice piece of page 1, Section B on Ogg V. and C. Montgomerey.

MP3 patent requirements? (3, Interesting)

ergo98 (9391) | about 13 years ago | (#2119772)

Congratulations to the OV team. While I haven't used it for a while, when I did it seemed quite nice.

Having said that what I currently use, which is MP3s, sound great and they work great, so why should I as Joe Consumer care about OV? What sort of license fees does the MP3 patent owner (Fraunhofer?) put on companies such as Winamp, or do they only charge MP3 ripper type products?

I guess my question is this: If I don't have a religious problem with patents, why should I care about alternatives if they're only as good as MP3?

Re:MP3 patent requirements? (2)

norton_I (64015) | about 13 years ago | (#2144721)

There are no patent royalties for software MP3 decoders. Software encoders, and hardware decoders and encoders have royalties of a few dollars / unit. MP3Pro is (IIRC) about twice the money.

So, the people that really care at this point are A) people who want a free encoder to rip their CDs without violating any patents, and B) manufacturers of (especially) low cost hardware MP3 players.

Ogg also theoretically can be a lot smaller than an MP3 of comprable bitrate. Again, this really is a very good thing when you are trying to store as much as you can on a 32 MB compact flash card.

End users will care about it when they get hardware that supports Ogg and they want to use the same files with Winamp and their new Rio player.

I've got a mirror: (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2119842)

Hi, before I perfomed the release today, I mirroed all the distribution files on my box. http://www.linuxpower.cx/~greg/v/ [linuxpower.cx] . - Greg Maxwell

Patent Pending? (1)

ajayrockrock (110281) | about 13 years ago | (#2121537)

What's with the patent pending topic logo??

Re:Patent Pending? (3, Insightful)

Sc00ter (99550) | about 13 years ago | (#2115051)

I assume it's because OGG is patent free, while MP3 is not.

ok, a weak attempt at humor (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2143098)

"patent free" as in "speech free", or as in "beer free"?

iTunes (2)

benedict (9959) | about 13 years ago | (#2121825)

I wish Apple's iTunes supported Ogg Vorbis.

I wish... (1)

slashdot_commentator (444053) | about 13 years ago | (#2115093)


I wish people wouldn't support proprietary software companies. I don't see why people bitch about Microsoft and then think Apple should get a free ride.

Re:iTunes (-1)

ClickWir (166927) | about 13 years ago | (#2125903)

Apple sucks, their board of directors doesn't know what they are doing. They smoke crack all day and get high. They need to go out of business.

Re:iTunes (2, Funny)

Unknown Bovine Group (462144) | about 13 years ago | (#2130574)

I wish Apple's iTunes supported Ogg Vorbis.

Well I'm sure somebody will hack it together soon... All they have to do is download the source co.... Oh yeah. Guess you're SOL.

Re:iTunes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2139472)

A young couple are on their way to Vegas to get married. Before getting there, the girl said to the guy that she has a confession to make: the reason that they have not been too intimate is because she is very flat-chested. If he wishes to cancel the wedding, it's okay with her.

The guy thought about it for a while, and said he does not mind she is flat, and sex is not the most important thing in a marriage.

Several miles down the road, the guy turned to the girl and said that he also wants to make a confession; he said below his waist, it is just like a baby. If the girl wants to cancel the marriage, its okay with him. The girl thought about it for a while and said that she does not mind, and she also believed there are other things far more important than sex in a marriage.

They were happy that they are honest with each other. They went on to Vegas and got married. On their wedding night, the girl took off her clothes, she was flat as a washboard. Finally, the guy took off his clothes. One glance at the guy's naked body, the girl fainted and fell to the floor.

After she became conscious the guy asked: "I told you before we got married, why did you still faint?"
The girl said: "You told me it was just like a baby".

The guy replied: "Yes, 8 pounds and 21 inches".

Re:iTunes (-1)

ClickWir (166927) | about 13 years ago | (#2141575)

Apple sucks. They really do. Sooner they go out of business the better.

I got it! I got it! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2121826)

Suck my first-posting cock!

Re:I got it! I got it! (-1)

ClickWir (166927) | about 13 years ago | (#2144638)

Looks like your wrong, bitch.

Might try refreshing the page before the "Post Comment" page and see all the other posts before yours before posting.

fp (-1)

chissad (265916) | about 13 years ago | (#2121827)

sucks to you faggot bitches...

Re:fp (-1)

ClickWir (166927) | about 13 years ago | (#2140735)

Nope. Your too lame. Sucks to be you. Try again you stupid little mexican cotton worker.

Nope. Your too lame. Sucks to be you... Try again you stupid little mexican cotton worker....

Nope. Your too lame. Sucks to be you. Try again you stupid little mexican cotton worker..

Nope. Your too lame. Sucks to be you. Try again you stupid little mexican cotton worker!!!

Yuck (0, Offtopic)

OpCode42 (253084) | about 13 years ago | (#2121829)

I just cant get used to seeing Konquerer with a C.

This is a tuning release (5, Informative)

Skuto (171945) | about 13 years ago | (#2122043)

Unfortunately the poster didn't mention this, so I will.

This is a tuning release. Although all infrastructure like channel coupling is in place, the encoder itself is not ideally tuned yet. One of the goals of this release is to get people to test the new modes and report possible problems (samples were it goofs up). If you do this, be sure to try a blind test. Your mind _will_ play tricks on you otherwise.

Two known problems currently are pre/postecho on some really hard samples, and occasional 'hissing' in the low bitrate modes (< 160).

Both are known and will be fixed in the very near future. RC3 is already expected next week.

--
GCP

Damnit, not on my PJBox (Compaq, you hEAR?!) (1, Flamebait)

torpor (458) | about 13 years ago | (#2122158)

Sitting here streaming MP3's over to my PJB100 (www.pjbox.com), *WISHING* I could use .ogg files instead.

Come on COMPAQ, what's it going to take to get you to loosen things up a bit on the PJB100 specs so we can get Ogg ported to it?

Thought Compaq used to be cool with OSS-style development, but then I got a PJB100...

Ogg The Conqueror? (4, Funny)

jawad (15611) | about 13 years ago | (#2124964)

Ogg the Conqueror?

Close. It's Oog the Caveman. But nice try.

Was wondering if vorbis got slashdotted (1)

Uggy (99326) | about 13 years ago | (#2125707)

I was downloading vorbis RC2 and all of a sudden the site went to a crawl... Hmm, wonder if they posted the release on Slashdot? Sure enough.

Doh! You guys could have at least let me finish my download *G*

Isn't this missing the whole point ? (0, Insightful)

Flabdabb Hubbard (264583) | about 13 years ago | (#2125886)

I mean, sure ogg vorbis is not encumbered by patents, and that is surely a good thing. But the whole purpose of MP3, Ogg Vorbis, ATRAC and all these other digital music compression algorithms is to make it easier/more cost effective for people to steal the music they want, rather than pay for it.

I am fed up to the back teeth of these criminal scum who ruthlessly and without any conscience whatsoever steal music and then brag about it on IRC.

Last week some guy was saying how he had about 40 Gigabytes of 'ripped' MP3s on his machine. By my calculations (assume a CD cost $14) that means he has stolen the equivalent of about $30000.

If he stole that from a bank he would quite rightly be in prison. Are we supposed to think it is a lesser crime, simply because he used a computer ?

Re:Isn't this missing the whole point ? (1)

JebOfTheForest (207893) | about 13 years ago | (#2118590)

Is this a troll or do those question marks mean you actually want to engage people here in a discussion on this topic? If the second is true, are you insane?

Re:Isn't this missing the whole point ? (1)

John F. Ketamine (454506) | about 13 years ago | (#2130081)

If he stole that from a bank he would quite rightly be in prison. Are we supposed to think it is a lesser crime, simply because he used a computer ?

Why yes, yes we are.

But not because "he used a computer."

It is a lesser crime because money in the bank pays people's rent. Music in the air does no such thing. Music is just another kind of information that wants to be free. I think that when people start making money from making music, the whole system gets turned upside down. Why does it bother you so much that people take the music they want without paying for it, and yet it doesn't bother you that a guy can plug in a guitar, or a turntable, or maybe just some keys and knobs, and make an insanely disproportionate living from it? The act of making music is important, and great, but it doesn't contribute to the economy in any significant way. If someone is going to try to pull a fast one on responsible, grownup people trying to make an honest living, I have no problem doing the same to him.

Hey, I know I've been trolled, but what the hell, eh? I haven't learned my lesson just yet.

Re:Isn't this missing the whole point ? (1)

arodland (127775) | about 13 years ago | (#2132391)

hrm... considering that they're "ripped" mp3s, why are you assuming they're illegal?

Re:Isn't this missing the whole point ? (0)

jocknerd (29758) | about 13 years ago | (#2132399)

Go back to your hole you RIAA Troll!

But the whole purpose of MP3, Ogg Vorbis, ATRAC and all these other digital music compression algorithms is to make it easier/more cost effective for people to steal the music they want, rather than pay for it.

Give me a fscking break. The purpose is to record your cd's onto your computer without using up all the space on it. Personally, I'd like to just have everything saved as a .wav file but when a .wav file typically is about 50MB in size, there's only so many songs you can store on your hard drive.

Re:Isn't this missing the whole point ? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2153933)

I agree. People think that they can steal intellectual property, like software and music, just because it's not tangible. Stealing is stealing, folks. I don't care whether you're stealing some kid's bicycle or some artist's song. Either way, you are taking something to which you are not entitled by law.

All of the Linux users who want to play games have to steal a copy of Windows. This is often a $200+ value, which the Linux user decries as "The Micro$oft Tax." As a result, he feels compelled to steal the software, complaining that he doesn't think that "Micro$oft" (which is possibly related to "Microsoft") deserves the money. This is stealing. Likewise, the Linux user has no job, so he feels compelled to steal music rather than paying for it. Downloading music without paying for it is also stealing. The Linux user likes to hide this fact by complaining that the record companies bilk artists out of money, and so the artists wouldn't care. Did the artists tell you this, or are you once again pulling things out of your ass?

Stop stealing. Whether it is software, hardware, music-ware, vapor-ware, hardware, or software, stealing is wrong.

What about... (3, Interesting)

swordboy (472941) | about 13 years ago | (#2125902)

What is currently being done in the matter of multi-channel compressed audio? At this point, all of these formats seem to support stereo only. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to implement a Dolby Digital compression algorithm. There is currently limited support for the format outside of DVDs but the music that is out there is impressive. Perhaps the OV guys could put something together after they finalize this format?

Dolby Digital (2)

wiredog (43288) | about 13 years ago | (#2121863)

Is patented. So is THX. I don't think there are any un-patented 5.1 channel codecs around. Maybe the DVD-Audio. But I don't think the OV guys will be doing it.

Re:What about... (3, Informative)

Skuto (171945) | about 13 years ago | (#2138317)

Vorbis supports up to 255 fully coupled channels

So basically this is already done.

--
GCP

Re:What about... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2144639)

No, Vorbis supports a whole lot of channels. See their FAQ. DD is limited to 5.1 channels.

Standard Wave handling (1)

bentini (161979) | about 13 years ago | (#2128950)

I'm doing research on digital watermarking (don't hate me, it's an academic thing, specifically trying to break one scheme). Does anyone know where I can get general purpose code to interact with waves? Like, it will handle all the headers and I can just get the samples?

And this is only sorta OT, because the answer might be Ogg.

This could really help me. If you know of anything, reply.

Emai: dbentley@stanford dot it's-a-university

Re:Standard Wave handling (1)

kcarnold (99900) | about 13 years ago | (#2110012)

oggenc (vorbis-tools) has a WAV reader you can use for input. libao has a WAV writer you can use for output. So yes the answer can be ogg.

Re:Standard Wave handling (1)

JebOfTheForest (207893) | about 13 years ago | (#2132400)

java sound api, if you're into that sort of thing.

Ogg created due to Patent problems (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2130575)

You all should be aware that Ogg Vorbis was created due to the fact that MP3 contains patented tech. You probably already know, but let's look a little further.

You own a patent, you get the tech. to become widely accepted then you crack down by sending nasty letters to everyone.

Don't think it could happen. Humm, the DMCA is a law created to make sure it does. Corporate interests are suddenly creating the future, not the acedemics and scientists. No, like Professor Felten, they are threatened.

So, support Ogg, GNU and everyone else who is protecting your Freedom. There is a larger purpose to their work which most people are just discovering.

Freedom you say? Yes, Freedom, look at Dmitry Sklyarov -- he sat in jail...

Pay-per-view books?
http://www.anti-dmca.org [anti-dmca.org]

MP3 is more than a music format (1)

storem (117912) | about 13 years ago | (#2132396)

Over the last year(s) MP3 has become more than just a music format. MP3 is a noun over here (Belgium/Europe). Everyone is talking about their MP3's, not about their CD's or their Tapes anymore.

Do you have that new song by...
Sure, I got the MP3!

In my opinion it will take a while before people wil want to make the change. Not all people care for patent free formats and free software.
Not all people know about GNU, Linux, Ogg Vorbis, etc... either! Most people don't even know Netscape: Windows gets you on the net. Windows plays your MP3's, Windows...

my $0.02

The real question for the layman (1)

WillSeattle (239206) | about 13 years ago | (#2132634)

Is this:

Will I be able to tell the difference from playing my Sarah McLachlan CDs on my in-car stereo?

and

Will my techno and other rave-type music sound and feel the same when I play it on my computer, given that it's using the slightly better than average speakers I bought with it?

Everything else is just fluff, like when CDs came out and purists complained about distortions and hearing audience noise.

Also available at xiph.org (2, Informative)

soboroff (91667) | about 13 years ago | (#2137194)

Not yet slashdotted...

www.xiph.org [xiph.org]

Ogg who? (-1)

Trollificus (253741) | about 13 years ago | (#2137723)

Oh yeah, that other [btinternet.com] audio compression format.

Not all it's cracked up to be... (3, Informative)

sultanoslack (320583) | about 13 years ago | (#2138319)

I'd love to use Ogg Vorbis and be a good little Free Software guy, but I tried using it this morning and was disappointed.

I compared an Ogg (uning the encoder that came out today) file with a 128KB/s mp3 and a medium quality VBR mp3 (both made with Lame) and I just didn't think the Ogg file was quite there. I was using the same file for all of the tests (Mahler's 9th Symphony).

Also, on my Athlon 900 Oggenc went at 0.6x encoding speed. I usually get 5-8x with 128KB/s mp3s.

I ended up settling on going a little bigger and using a 192KB/s MP3, which I'd say is still the best option.

Best wishes to the Ogg Vorbis team. I hope that I can eventually ditch my mp3s.

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (1)

Tim_F (12524) | about 13 years ago | (#2122712)

I hate to say it, but only you can eventually ditch your mp3's. At this point, the sound quality is almost comparable (if not the same). I truly believe that the people that complain about ogg not having the sound quality of mp3 are just to lazy to try and find out if their is a difference.

And if their is, take one for the team! Stop using mp3's, and completely reencode your entire cd collection into .ogg files.

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (1)

Denial of Service (199335) | about 13 years ago | (#2123783)

And if their (sic) is, take one for the team! Stop using mp3's, and completely reencode your entire cd collection into .ogg files.

Oh, so it again comes down to "even if we're not as good technically, support us anyway out of sheer principle". Give those of us without bullshit political motivation a reason to switch and I'll happily do so.

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (1)

Outland Traveller (12138) | about 13 years ago | (#2131038)

Ogg is as good, if not better technically. The political motivation is *not* bullshit.

For me, the issues at stake are just a bit more important than my existing mp3 collection. It's sad that so many people are so lazy and shortsighted.

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2142356)

What makes you think that people's MP3 collections come from "buying" "Compact" "discs"? I would never in my wildest dreams even consider the purchase of pre-recorded audio at a great premium. I do not feel that music is worth $18 per hour, for example.

I have high-quality MP3's, that I downloaded legally through Fair Use, that I use every day. Trying to re-encode them to Ogg Vorbis would be a very time-consuming experience that would degrade the quality of my CD-quality tracks.

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (2, Informative)

Van Halen (31671) | about 13 years ago | (#2128666)

Hmm, I'll have to give it a try myself and see how it does. After the recent discussion on Ogg vs. MP3, I was all set to encode my CDs to Ogg. I'm on my third time re-encoding my CDs (first time was crappy with bladeenc at 128kbs, second time with VBR LAME, third time with the latest LAME beta, creating a high quality version for listening at home and a lower quality for the MP3-CD player in the car for each track). I was only about 10% through my 300 CDs and figured it would be easy to scrap that and start again. I was going to make the high quality files Ogg and keep the lower quality MP3 for the car player.

One problem I've had with MP3 is that I have yet to find any player that will play consecutive MP3 files with absolutely no break in the audio stream between files. It seems that every one of them has to close the old file, open the new file, read some information, then finally start decoding. In the meantime, there's been a split second break in audio output. Not good for live CDs or any time two tracks continuously merge together. I looked at the API for decoding Ogg to raw audio and it looked perfect to write my own simple player to solve this. I could simply buffer enough audio data that there would be no "skip" in output when switching input files. Perfect.

Then I did some comparisons with sound quality. With Ogg RC1, I encoded part of Mussorgsky's Pictures At An Exhibition to both Ogg and MP3 at around 200kbs VBR. The MP3 sounded perfect but the Ogg had audible clicks and pops. Sorry, but that just wasn't acceptable. So I scrapped that idea and went back to MP3, continuing what I had started. I would have to look into another solution to solve the break-between-tracks problem.

I'm now about 2/3 done with the encoding and this happens? ;-) Honestly I'm not sure whether I want the quality to be improved... If it is, I'll be tempted to start over, which is a lot of work. If it isn't, I don't get the benefits of Ogg... Hmmm. I'll give it a try and see what happens, though.

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (1)

[amorphis] (45762) | about 13 years ago | (#2143099)

One problem I've had with MP3 is that I have yet to find any player that will play consecutive MP3 files with absolutely no break in the audio stream between files

I find that Sonique [sonique.com] does a good job at this.

My Aiwa car MP3 player does NOT and it's annoying.

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (1)

Defiler (1693) | about 13 years ago | (#2132398)

I just did this test.. Ogg vs. LAME at 128, 160, 192, and 256kbps. Ogg sounds better to me at every bitrate. I won't know for sure until I get home to better equipment.. Are you sure you're using RC2?

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (3, Informative)

Skuto (171945) | about 13 years ago | (#2137670)

I don't know what you've done, but Oggenc should run at 4x _at least_ on your system.

The 128kbps mode is not ideally tuned (IMHO), but the problems are known. 160kbps is already a lot better.

--
GCP

Re:Not all it's cracked up to be... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2141924)

Not to be a troll or anything, but why in the world would you want to encode Mahler 9 in anything that emplyoys psychoacoustics? I could understand making MP3s out of pop or alternative music, but Mahler 9? That's like me photographing a Picasso and then giving you a massively compressed JPEG that made everything look distorted. You might still see the picture, but is it really worth the space you've saved? Probably not.

I still can't get over anyone doing this sort of thing to Mahler. Ugh... I'd rather spray paint my initials on the Mona Lisa than turn my Mahler collection into MP3s.

dogs humping (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2141568)

check it out __
[slashdot.org] __/o\_
[slashdot.org] \____ \
[slashdot.org] / \
[slashdot.org] __ //\ \
[slashdot.org] __/o\-//--\ \_/
[slashdot.org] \_______\|
[slashdot.org] || \|\|
[slashdot.org] _|| _||_||

Ahhh Vorbis.... (1)

mystery_bowler (472698) | about 13 years ago | (#2141996)

The best thing is how it just rolls off the tongue...

Vorbis...

The site is kind of slow (as it is being /.'d, so if you've seen it all before and want to get directly to the downloads...(but I encourage browsing the whole downloads area)

Unix/Linux (RC2) [vorbis.com]
Win (RC2) [vorbis.com]
Unix/Linux (RC2) [vorbis.com]
Macintosh [vorbis.com]
BeOS [vorbis.com]

Math in cross-coupling (2)

MostlyHarmless (75501) | about 13 years ago | (#2142357)

From the paper on coupled-channel encoding:

"Eliminating Trigonometry and Rounding"

Man, I wish they had thought of that sooner - That would have my Pre-Calc grade soooo much.

Ogg Vorbis Quality (4, Informative)

chrysrobyn (106763) | about 13 years ago | (#2142877)

I know I need to post this to the authors, but... It is my goal to replace my wife's and my CD collection of 400-500 discs with a hard drive. We'd like to be able to put the CDs in a closet and reclaim some living room space. So, I ripped 10 or so titles and compared them to the original. The rip quality was 256kb/sec. I'm not exactly an audiophile, but I won't tolerate noise, so maybe a lossy compression isn't right for me. I didn't notice any high end problems or artifacts like MP3. Stereo seperation was excellent. The only difference was that the low end was less impressive on the OGG than the CD. I put on a few songs and started them simultanously and switched the amp from CD to cassette in (which happened to be my computer). Although it is possible that the casette input amp is less accurate near the low end than the CD input amp, I doubt it. The speakers used were Bose 501s. Conclusion: at 256k/sec, OGG was fine at the high end, but strangely enough, not good enough at the low end. If the low end can be clarified / amplified (hard to tell, psychoacoustics are strange), I'll be OGGing away for a good long time.

Re:Ogg Vorbis Quality (1)

Skuto (171945) | about 13 years ago | (#2120014)

>Although it is possible that the casette input amp is less accurate near the low end than the CD input amp, I doubt it.

You're basically sending the singal through two totally different paths. Additionally, the CD input is likely to be of higher quality than the casette input (why make that good?).

I think your test was flawed.

--
GCP

Re:Ogg Vorbis Quality (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2121484)

first time I read your comment as:

It is my goal to replace my wife and my CD collection of 400-500 discs ...

Current version of Ogg Vorbis can only do the later :-)

Re:Ogg Vorbis Quality (3, Informative)

IronChef (164482) | about 13 years ago | (#2122017)


FYI, I have been using this for my MP3 jukebox:

webplay.sourceforge.net

I looked at a couple hundred jukebox projects and this was the one that met my needs best. It even lets you play the files ON the file server, if it has a sound card... so my jukebox is a P200 hidden behind the stereo. Webplay can do simultaneous streams to other computers on your LAN too, if you want. Cool stuff.

Re:Ogg Vorbis Quality (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2129346)

You should try to eliminate the question of wether the casette input amp is the problem, Just put the CD into your computer and play it. Not perfect (since you can't switch between your stereo playing CDs or your computer, unless you hvae 2 of the same cd). But it might show a problem with the tape inputs. (It is possible, as they may have tailored them unintentially to the tapes limits of dynamic range.)

Re:Ogg Vorbis Quality (2, Interesting)

bentini (161979) | about 13 years ago | (#2136959)

FYI: flac (flac.sourceforge.net) is a free lossless audio compression. What this means is that you might only halve the size, but it's a PERFECT reproduction. I'm not sure if any players support it, but a shell script or somesuch could probably decrompress it right before you wanted to play it.

The code quality is horrible, but that might not matter.

-Dan

Re:Ogg Vorbis Quality (1)

Shrubbman (3807) | about 13 years ago | (#2110013)

or if he's using a windows box he could go for Monkey's Audio!
http://www.monkeysaudio.com/
I just love the name

Monkey's audio is a hoax (1)

metalhed77 (250273) | about 13 years ago | (#2144405)

from what i've heard it makes a dummy file and just opens a hidden .wav

Re:Monkey's audio is a hoax (1)

Skuto (171945) | about 13 years ago | (#2153729)

This is nonsense.

Monkey's Audio is a fine program. It's by far the best lossless compressor today. The only problem is that it is Windows only and nonfree.

Now the really good news:

Monkey's Audio's author and the Ogg guys have already been talking and he is willing to opensource his format and get it working in the ogg framework, as well as to cooperate to make it even better.

--
GCP

Re:Ogg Vorbis Quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2144584)

The only difference was that the low end was less impressive on the OGG than the CD.

How so? Was it weaker? Or was it extra chunky like MP3s?

Ogg will never be popular (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2143155)

It will never be popular. It's because of the name. Ogg Vorbis? What were they smoking when they came up with that?

first ogg (-1, Offtopic)

ReidMaynard (161608) | about 13 years ago | (#2144633)

woohoo!

Why? (0, Flamebait)

Sc00ter (99550) | about 13 years ago | (#2144634)

"The most important of the many changes is channel coupling, which means that Vorbis can now encode bitsteams at a much lower bitrate than before."

Why would you want lower bitrates? for a worse sounding ogg??

Re:Why? (1)

Skuto (171945) | about 13 years ago | (#2112791)

>Why would you want lower bitrates?

Streaming

--
GCP

Re:Why? (2)

p3d0 (42270) | about 13 years ago | (#2130683)

That's lower bitrates for a given level of quality. Duh.

Re:Why? (5, Informative)

BeBoxer (14448) | about 13 years ago | (#2138497)

Channel coupling is a method of decreasing the bitrate while maintaining identical or similar quality. Vorbis supports multiple modes, from a "lossless stereo" to aggressive modes. The lossless mode produces greater compression with bit-for-bit identical output results to non-coupled modes. The more aggresive modes sacrifice some of the stereo separation in order to decrease the bitrate.

So, your question is a little silly. The whole point to having multiple bitrates is to allow the user to choose their preferred mix of quality and size. If an aggressive channel-coupling mode can provide significant size savings while having a minimal impact on quality, lots of people will find that worthwhile. And, as you would know if you read the link before posting, you don't have to sacrifice quality at all! Do you really need to ask why someone might want to encode in a mode which has a lower bitrate and identical quality?

slashdotted already, download from mirror (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2144635)

google has a mirror page to download from alternate place right over here [google.com]

COMP-U-GEEK ABOVE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2118263)

Please moderate down as such. Also, assuming this guy didn't just mod himself up, it would be nice if moderators checked the freaking links before moderating.

Re:COMP-U-GEEK ABOVE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2113303)

Well spotted. I've corrected it here [google.com] .

Re:slashdotted already, download from mirror (1)

kcarnold (99900) | about 13 years ago | (#2125885)

Don't use that link -- in the best case, Google's cache is old, and this is nowhere near best-case.

"Patents" the wrong category/topic (5, Funny)

FreeUser (11483) | about 13 years ago | (#2144636)

Quoting the Ogg Vorbis [vorbis.com] website:


Ogg Vorbis is a completely open, patent-free, professional audio encoding and streaming technology with all the benefits of Open Source.


So, why is this article listed under the "patents pending" topic again?

Re:"Patents" the wrong category/topic (1)

Evangelion (2145) | about 13 years ago | (#2138318)


Because the whole point of OGG was to create a patent-free audio compression format.

Why would I want to give up MP3s? (2, Flamebait)

fetta (141344) | about 13 years ago | (#2144637)

I understand the philosophical arguments for using an open source standard instead of MP3s, but I have a hard time imagining that Ogg Vorbis will win out. MP3s are easy to use, easy to create (from existing CDs, at least), etc. I don't see the big motivating factor for people to go to Ogg Vorbis. The future seems to be divided up between MP3 and copy-protected formats provided by companies like Microsoft.

What am I missing? What is going to motivate anyone but idealogically motivated open source advocates to switch to Ogg Vorbis?

OGG is to MP3 as PNG is to GIF (3, Interesting)

Giant Hairy Spider (467310) | about 13 years ago | (#2115094)

(everybody loves oversimplification)

Ogg Vorbis's popularity will be proportional to the enforcement of the MP3 patent(s?).

It doesn't have to be popular to serve a purpose. The mere threat of a completely free format waiting in the wings could just mean that MP3 is effectively free, aside from a few particularly litigation-sensitive companies paying patent royalties.

I'm sure more than one group has replied to UNISYS intimidation with, "We could be using PNG tomorrow."

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (1)

Unknown Bovine Group (462144) | about 13 years ago | (#2122711)

I had assumed Ogg Vorbis would would become a CODEC which could then be used to create/play music files in an .MP3 format. (Much like DivX for video... well, except more on the level.) Does Ogg necessitate creating a new extension/bindings etc?

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (1)

Skuto (171945) | about 13 years ago | (#2119061)

MP3 is just MP3, you can't put Vorbis in that

Ogg is sortof like AVI/ASF, with Vorbis being the MP3 and Tarkin being the DivX ;)
--
GCP

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2125294)

It's a good question, and points to the transition difficulty Ogg faces. But it does go beyond mere political or philosophical desires. What we're seeing in proprietary formats from the high (DVD video) to the low (PDF Text) ends of the multimedia spectrum is that inevitably greed and the fear of individual control over the bits creates a situation where the media is purposely devalued to create economic control. DVD country codes are about artificially reduced values. CSS "encryption" is about artificially reduced value. A PDF that will only play on one or two machines is about artificially reduced value. A totally open, patent-free, non-proprietary format theoretically allows people to seek the true, full value of a digital media format. Now, the counter-argument is that by eliminating the profit motive from formats/media, the drive to innovation is removed. We'll see (I mean thak god we've got those strong patents on the manufacture of flat surfaces from tree pulp or printing woulda NEVER taken off) - meaning, we'll actually see. If the former model is right, Ogg will inevitably overtake proprietary formats in value and in the end format will be free - the way most CDs are right now. If not, the lack of commercial incentive to improve Ogg will mean that there are always competitive proprietary formats like MP3 audio competing with totally free formats like Ogg

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (2)

Drone-X (148724) | about 13 years ago | (#2132390)

Ogg Vorbis doesn't really need to win from MP3s, it needs to be the format people go looking for if they want something better than MP3s.

All those MP3 files aren't going to disappear of course but as Ogg Vorbis is free software (licensed under the BSD license) a lot of players are going to build in support for it, preparing it to replace MP3 in the long term (internet time, I suppose).

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (1, Redundant)

rhizome (115711) | about 13 years ago | (#2132401)

What is going to motivate anyone but idealogically motivated open source advocates to switch to Ogg Vorbis?

Well, there are any number of reasons which would be best researched on oggvorbis' website/FAQ, but your point seems to be that "people" need to use Ogg in order for it to "win out". This is a silly and narrowminded premise that valorizes dominance and...monopolies.

There is no need for there to be one encoding format any more than there needs to be only one OS. Choice is something that can be preserved by supporting alternative formats (even if they're of better quality ;). This support can come in many forms, and the most effective forms of support that I can think of are availability and usability.

People who are tech-friendly and willing to be early adopters are in a crucial position to get set up for encoding Ogg, dealing with plugins, etc. This is important because it *makes .ogg files available". There won't be any reason to listen to .ogg files if there aren't any to listen to. "People" aren't going to be able to listen to these .ogg files if it's too complicated to go get a plugin or set up MIME types or something, so player support is important to make it easy for Joe Random Lamer to listen. Keep in mind that JRL has no concept of file formats. If there's a file that his default player (thinking "Windows") doesn't play, they'll just go on to something else. If the player supports .ogg (among others), then the person can listen to a file without having to deal with the complications.
So, on the face of it you've got a problem with .ogg not being ubiquitous. Same here. But the problem of .ogg becoming a prevalent format is easy to solve: start making .ogg files! Nobody has to "switch" to .ogg except for people doing the encoding, which is just as easy in *nix as in Windows as it is for MP3's. If you think MP3 is a better-sounding or faster or whatever format than .ogg, then that's fine. But what are you going to do as the major companies start clamping down on MP3 in favor of DRM formats? Certainly none of this matters to someone who encodes CDs (or whatever) they bought and are not going to be trading MP3s, but every time these files trade hands or are posted for public consumption it's an opportunity to let someone know there are other (better sounding ;) choices out there. It's time for people to stop allowing themselves to be scandalized by the MP3 hysteria and just move on. Ideological? Sure, in the sense that maintaining a range of choice is an ideal.

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (4, Insightful)

Sc00ter (99550) | about 13 years ago | (#2137722)

It's really not harder to make an ogg file over an mp3, as long as you get the right software. Also, most players will play ogg and if they don't, there's probably a plugin so you can. For me, I use mp3.. Why? because I have a portable mp3 player, and a car mp3 player that won't play ogg files.. plus, I don't feel the need to convert the 200 or so CDs of mp3 that I converted when I made them into mp3s..

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (2, Interesting)

rkischuk (463111) | about 13 years ago | (#2141587)

And there we have the reason that Ogg Vorbis will not gain broad-based acceptance for a long time.

MP3 has mind-share with the public
MP3 has a huge installed base of players and devices
Users have no reason to stop using MP3

Unless Ogg Vorbis can demonstrate massive storage space savings/technical advantages or MP3 is made completely unusable, users have no reason to switch, and users aren't going to switch without a reason. It's new, it's nifty, it's innovative, it's interesting to us, but like many other open-source initiatives, until it gives Average Computer User a real reason to change their habits, it's just an intresting niche.

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (3, Interesting)

Greg W. (15623) | about 13 years ago | (#2114201)

Here are two reasons why some users will want to switch to Ogg Vorbis:

  • It's free. (Game developers won't have to pay patent license fees to use Ogg Vorbis in their games.)
  • It sounds considerably better than MP3 at the same bitrate.

For me, the second one was the killer. Try it yourself! Pick a challenging piece, and encode it with LAME [sourceforge.net] and Ogg Vorbis [vorbis.com] at the same bitrate, listen to both files, and see which sounds better.

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (1)

Weh (219305) | about 13 years ago | (#2144004)

it's really no big deal if most players will support the format... You can just have mp3's and ogg's or whatever you call them in a single playlist and play them with one player; np

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (1)

John F. Ketamine (454506) | about 13 years ago | (#2140380)

1. Ogg Vorbis can encode smaller files with better audio quality.

2. Many online music sites (for instance, ElectronicScene.com) will enable support for the Ogg Vorbis format because it is less storage strain on their servers.

3. I like it better. I use it all the time and I could care less about mp3 now.

OK, that's about all I have.

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (1)

kscd (414074) | about 13 years ago | (#2141651)

I'm not sure it'll actually work, but a few benefits come to mind:
1) They take up less space than MP3's, matching one of Window's Media "selling" points(for personal use, at least).
2) Since there is no need to pay anyone to support this (as their is with mp3), it could be seen as a viable alternative to both mp3 and WM.

Then again, if the record industry keeps on killing fair use by polluting CDs, none of this will matter.

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (1)

Skuto (171945) | about 13 years ago | (#2142162)

Better quality at a smaller filesize.

Vorbis is very interesting for hardware manufacturers because of the lack of licensing fees and patents. Although support it not that good at the moment, there have been companies that expressily said Vorbis support would be preferred over mp3pro. Some are waiting for 1.0, some already have unofficial support.

WinAmp will support Vorbis by default in the next release. Why _not_ make the move? Unless you have a non-upgradable portable, there's only good points to it.

--
GCP

Re:Why would I want to give up MP3s? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2142637)

Ogg Vorbis is an open standard. I like open standards. Now sing with me, or just download the Ogg Vorbis [gnu.org] file:

Join us now and share the software...

Ogg vs MP3 is transparent -- users won't know diff (1)

Chuck Messenger (320443) | about 13 years ago | (#2145340)

I don't see the big motivating factor for people to go to Ogg Vorbis. The future seems to be divided up between MP3 and copy-protected formats provided by companies like Microsoft.
Ogg is the only well-working format which is free of licensing issues. Users won't care about licensing, but manufacturers and developers will. Users won't be loyal to MP3 -- they'll go with whatever is available that works. It's not like Windows vs Linux -- there's practially no hurdle at all to a user using Ogg (if their player/encoder supports it). After all, WMA (and all the proprietary formats) are really several different formats, grouped together under one name. Users have no clue what the real, underlying formats are. Why should they care? Ogg will be just another format, which users will be as quick to use as any other (if the performance is there). From a developer's viewpoint, once Ogg is stable (perhaps it is -- I don't know), why not include Ogg support? The more formats you support, the more valuable your player/encoder product is to your users.
What am I missing? What is going to motivate anyone but idealogically motivated open source advocates to switch to Ogg Vorbis?
But it isn't necessary to "switch" at all. With the advent of Ogg, high quality audio compression has become a commodity.

Why wouldn't I want to give up MP3s? (5, Interesting)

Cardhore (216574) | about 13 years ago | (#2153934)

In most cases, a 60kbps OGG file sounds as good as an 128k mp3. An 80k OGG is as good as 160k mp3 and half the size.

If you are serving audio streams, you can actually strip away parts of the files to make lower bitrate streams--without re-coding. (wow!) MP3 can't.

You can have more than 2 audio channels. MP3 can't.

The comment fields are well defined and you can have whatever attributes you want, with strings as long as necessary. ID3 for mp3s is a hack; string lengths are limited and you can't add easily add your own fields.

If you have a portable player, you would appreciate the smaller size with high quality.

In the future, you can select how you want stereo coupling done (not in this release). (Mp3 can.)

If you make computer games, you have a high quality free way of adding a lot of music to your games. (possibly patents for mp3)

You can do 44.1khz and 48 khz audio.

You can concatenate multiple streams together to make one file, and it will play correctly. You can also cut portions out and paste them together without re-encoding.

Ogg's are exactly the same length as the original WAVs--something MP3 lacks--so that when you make recordings of live shows, gaps don't appear in you r audio.

The encoder sounds good by default, so music traded on file sharing systems sounds good (unlike all those terrible 128k mp3s encoded by anything that isn't LAME).

i conquered you (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2144697)


suck on this
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
g [slashdot.org] [slashdot.org] g
o / \ [slashdot.org] \ [slashdot.org] / \ o
a| | [slashdot.org] \ | [slashdot.org] | a
t| `. [slashdot.org] | | [slashdot.org] : t
s` | [slashdot.org] | \| [slashdot.org] | s
e \ | / [slashdot.org] / \\\ --__ \\ : e
x \ \/ _--~~ [slashdot.org] ~--__| \ | x
* \ \_-~ [slashdot.org] ~-_\ | *
g \_ \ _.--------.______\| | g
o \ [slashdot.org] \______// [slashdot.org] _ [slashdot.org] ___ [slashdot.org] _ (_(__> [slashdot.org] \ | [slashdot.org] o
a \ . C ___) ______ (_(____> | / a
t /\ | C ____)/ \ (_____> |_/ t
s / /\| C_____) | (___> / \ s
e | ( _C_____)\______/ // _/ / \ e
x | \ |__ \\_________// (__/ | x
* | \ \____) `---- --' [slashdot.org] | *
g | \_ ___\ /_ _/ | g
o | [slashdot.org] / [slashdot.org] | | [slashdot.org] \ | o
a | [slashdot.org] | / [slashdot.org] \ \ [slashdot.org] [slashdot.org] | a
t | [slashdot.org] / / | [slashdot.org] | \ |t
s | / / \__/\___/ | |s
e | / / [slashdot.org] | | | [slashdot.org] |e
x | | [slashdot.org] | | [slashdot.org] | |x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

Re:i conquered you (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2132387)

The subject line totally cracked me up.

Bravo...

Sound quality comparison? (1)

Alex Kalita (398272) | about 13 years ago | (#2148632)

Have there been any actual scientific comparisons of sound quality between MP3/Ogg/WMA/etc formats? So far I've only heard conflicting user reports. ("WMA is better and smaller", "Ogg is better and smaller", "You can't beat MP3", etc.) By scientific, I mean a study with multiple listeners that is at least single blind, where the listeners don't know which sample is which format.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>