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Eclipse Foundation Celebrates 10 Years

Unknown Lamer posted about 8 months ago | from the emacs-is-still-better dept.

Java 155

msmoriarty writes with news that the Eclipse foundation is ten years old this week. Although Eclipse was released in 2001, development was controlled by IBM until the creation of the independent Eclipse Foundation in 2004. "According to Eclipse Foundation Director Mike Milinkovich, that's a major reason Eclipse was able to thrive: 'IBM....did an exemplary job of setting Eclipse free ... We became the first open source organization to show that real competitors could collaborate successfully within the community.' He also talks about misconceptions about Eclipse, its current open source success, and what he sees for the future."

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Timeline wrong? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46146891)

The Eclipse [wikipedia.org] line was phased out by 1989. Heck, Data General wasn't even a company anymore by 2001.

Re:Timeline wrong? (1, Funny)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 7 months ago | (#46148549)

Welcome to Slashdot, where a joke gets you a -1. Some mod needs another cup of coffee.

Still using it (4, Interesting)

hansamurai (907719) | about 8 months ago | (#46146909)

Even though I've owned a copy of IntelliJ IDEA for over a year, I still use Eclipse everyday for Java development. Latest version is great and the extensions available for it make it even better.

Re:Still using it (1, Troll)

clockwise_music (594832) | about 8 months ago | (#46147579)

I've used Basica, GW-Basic, QBasic, Logo, Visual Basic for DOS, VB6, Turbo Pascal, Turbo C++, Watcom, Visual Studio 2002/2003/2005/2008/2010/2012, Netbeans, XCode, Notepad, Notepad++, Vi, Watcom, Progress4GL and Eclipse.

Hands down, Eclipse was the slowest and most confusingest I've ever used out of ALL of the above.

Re:Still using it (1)

Dwedit (232252) | about 8 months ago | (#46147713)

You must be exaggerating, since GW-BASIC required you to manually type in line numbers, just like on an Apple II. Eclipse may be bloated and sluggish, but at least you don't need to type in line numbers.

Re:Still using it (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | about 8 months ago | (#46147819)

As fuggin verbose as java can be, not requiring line numbers is the least it can do. :P

Re:Still using it (3, Funny)

Volguus Zildrohar (1618657) | about 8 months ago | (#46147821)

AUTO 100, 10

Suddenly GW-Basic is rivalling Eclipse as an IDE!

Re:Still using it (1)

alex67500 (1609333) | about 7 months ago | (#46148331)

Should have used emacs... :-D

Re:Still using it (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46147979)

Wish my experience was the same, it's the contrary, I still avoid using it where possible.

It's still a sluggish bloated memory hog unless you're running it on a high spec system which doesn't describe the hardware most companies buy and which every other IDE runs fine on. None of which would be a problem if it weren't for the fact that it means intellisense is so slow it fails to respond before you've already typed a line of code manually meaning it gives you no advantage in writing code faster, no that Eclipse's intellisense is particularly smart anyway. The plugin system is still broken such that if you want to work with multiple languages and technologies you need multiple copies of Eclipse installed.

I'm not terribly sure what they've actually done in the last 10 years, these were the same key complaints people had back then, and they're still relevant to this day.

Eclipse is just like PHP, it's popular, widely used, but ultimately only through dumb luck, not because it has any real actual redeeming features that make it better than the alternatives.

Eclipse is the sort of bloated sluggish mess that gives Java an undeserved bad name.

Re:Still using it (1, Interesting)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 7 months ago | (#46148585)

It's still a sluggish bloated memory hog ...

I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that it's written in Java. Seriously, I don't know but I'm curious. This is not meant as flamebait (though I'm still glad I wore my Nomex undies today).

Whenever I see Java benchmarks, they let a program "warm up" (like it was made of vacuum tubes) before taking benchmark numbers. For things that run many times over, like server side stuff, that makes sense. But what about client side stuff like Eclipse? Does anybody have benchmarks for non-JIT'ed code? I understand you have to run the same piece of code many times (I've heard 10k) before it will be JIT'ed. A similar issue with memory. It seems that in order to run efficiently you need a heap that's much bigger than what you'd need if things were "manually" allocated/deallocated.

Re:Still using it (1)

Threni (635302) | about 7 months ago | (#46148635)

When I first read that speed was one of the three design goals of Java I assumed it was a joke and laughed. Apparently it's not a joke.

Re:Still using it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148561)

Even though I've owned a copy of IntelliJ IDEA for over a year, I still use Eclipse everyday for Java development. Latest version is great and the extensions available for it make it even better.

I was forced to use IDEA for several years. IDEA was very good for everyday Java and web programming.

The reason I liked Eclipse better, however, was that I don't normally do "everyday" programming. Eclipse allowed me to run multiple webapps talking to each other (or to non-web apps), work in multiple languages, and do other things above and beyond the everyday.

Granted, there are some things I've not been as happy about. The extension framework is a nightmare like OLE gone wild. Just trying to figure what to plug into and how when designing your own extensions is a major task. And their editors for XML, HTML, and similar formats are consistently buggy from release to release. Mylyn was a machine-crushing pig which I manually ripped out of my system in order to get anything productive done. I finally got a bigger machine, and learned to enjoy it, however.

Awesome (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46146911)

and I still don't know what it does.

Is there a memory leak or is it just Flashbuilder? (1)

GoodNewsJimDotCom (2244874) | about 8 months ago | (#46146929)

I hear Flashbuilder is built on top of Eclipse. I need to quit every day and restart because of a memory leak that slows everything down to a crawl with massive type lag of 1s+ between key presses. Its so easy to get stuff done in AS3 compared to any other language, but I often feel like I'm fighting the IDE.

Re:Is there a memory leak or is it just Flashbuild (0, Troll)

binarylarry (1338699) | about 8 months ago | (#46146949)

Adobe + Eclipse = Computer Gonorrhea

The only way it could be worse was is Oracle was involved. WAIT! Oracle owns Java.

So it's really:

Adobe + Eclipse + Oracle = Computer AIDS

Re:Is there a memory leak or is it just Flashbuild (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147317)

Adobe + Eclipse + Oracle == Anal Cancer

If you need Flashbuilder, try Mac (1)

raymorris (2726007) | about 8 months ago | (#46147293)

I don't use Flashbuilder that much, as I prefer their other tool, but I've never had a problem with any version of Flashbuilder on my Mac. It might be worth a try if the Windows version isn't working for you.

Flash Professional might be another option.

Re:If you need Flashbuilder, try Mac (1)

Tronster (25566) | about 7 months ago | (#46148667)

I have FlashBuilder on my Mac, I only use it when deploying a project to iOS - it is awful. One example: With the latest version (4.7) I deleted a project through the OS X Finder on my hard drive, that I had previously built with FlashBuilder. Afterwards it refused to start up, immediately crashing/closing, even after a reinstall of the entire Adobe suite (a recommendation on various forums.) It took a few hours combing through posts to find a helpful one that mentioned some obscure user data directory that had to be deleted.

Who writes an IDE that crashes when a project on disk is gone?

It's for this, and various other reasons, I continue to use the free, open-source alternative FlashDevelop ( http://flashdevelop.org/ [flashdevelop.org] ) for my Flash IDE. It's the only reason I keep a Parallels partition on my MacBook Pro.

Re:Is there a memory leak or is it just Flashbuild (3, Insightful)

H0p313ss (811249) | about 8 months ago | (#46147691)

Have you adjusted the heap memory settings in eclipse.ini?

Here's the guide I wrote [publicstaticfinal.com] for using the IBM JVM for RSA and RTC, Oracle/JVM settings are similar.

Re:Is there a memory leak or is it just Flashbuild (3)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 7 months ago | (#46148597)

Thank you for that link, as it's probably quite useful.

However, addressing Eclipse rather than you, I've never used any other IDE that required a user adjustment in heap memory settings. There's something wrong with that.

Java (1, Troll)

Brad Goodman (2906427) | about 8 months ago | (#46146933)

I think it's good - but on the rare occasion I can actually get Java to install and work, it's slow as a pig.

Re:Java (2, Interesting)

binarylarry (1338699) | about 8 months ago | (#46146969)

Java can be pretty quick these days, lots of hard work went into optimizing the runtime.

There are many things a VM like Java can do that you can't do in C++ (although C++ is inherently faster and lighterweight). But it can't optimize virtual calls away like the JVM can.

Re:Java (2, Interesting)

0123456 (636235) | about 8 months ago | (#46147221)

There are many things a VM like Java can do that you can't do in C++ (although C++ is inherently faster and lighterweight). But it can't optimize virtual calls away like the JVM can.

It's not virtual calls that make Eclipse randomly freeze for ten seconds or more. And I've wasted more time having to hit CTRL+C a dozen times to get it to copy than I ever have in virtual function calls in C++. Or restarting it when it runs out of RAM despite having a ton free on the machine, or runs out of handles because they're not closing something properly because, hey, garbage collection will take care of that, right?

Eclipse is a decent IDE when it works, but I'm sure it would work a lot better if it wasn't written in Java.

Re:Java (1, Interesting)

TrollstonButterbeans (2914995) | about 8 months ago | (#46147341)

"but I'm sure it would work a lot better if it wasn't written in Java."

I'd give up the modest goal "work a lot better" and trade it in for "it happens to work a lot".

Exits quickly, but Eclipse is spectacularly slow preventing actual work from getting done. It is like a low FPS video game where the problem is supposed to be your setup, but I've never found a computer powerful enough to run Eclipse at a tolerable speed considering my impatience.

Re:Java (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147379)

Eclipses quarks have nothing to do with java. Have you ever looked at the code behind eclipse? It's terrifying!

The way they handle tasking/progress is particularly bad (and the reason why it'll get hung up during certain operations.. it gets stuck in deadloops/race conditions and just chews through memory).

It's actually amazing how well it (generally) works, quarks aside.. given how shaky the code is. I like to think of it as a pile of crap that's been sculpted into something mostly usable.

Re:Java (4, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | about 8 months ago | (#46147397)

Have you ever looked at the code behind eclipse? It's terrifying!

No, I haven't. But I'll concede that anyone who can write bad code in Java can write much worse code in C++.

Re:Java (4, Informative)

Anrego (830717) | about 8 months ago | (#46147465)

From the limited time I've spent in eclipse's code, it seems a case of poorly done decoupling. It's layers upon layers of abstraction that's expected to just kinda sort itself out, which of course it doesn't and things end up in loops until the operation either times out, fails, or something changes that lets it get out of the loop and maybe even finish.

Clicking the cancel button is optimistic at best, especially when it's in one of it's death patterns. It just really seems to do a poor job of operation management in my opinion. When eclipse seems to be "taking forever", chances are it's two operation tasks bouncing back and forth waiting on each other, and not actually slow processing.

That said, I still love eclipse for Java development. Once you learn the do's and don'ts (and which files to delete when eclipse has a melt down), it's pretty usable.

Re:Java (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 7 months ago | (#46148713)

Even though I'm often skeptical of Java's performance, I'll play the devil's advocate here and point out that Emacs is written in elisp, which runs on a byte code interpreter and is garbage collected. Despite the jokes, it doesn't have as much stuff as Eclipse, but still it runs fast.

Re:Java (0)

OhANameWhatName (2688401) | about 8 months ago | (#46147675)

And for months I've been flush in mod points with nothing to use them on :(

Re:Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147845)

Or restarting it when it runs out of RAM despite having a ton free on the machine

Does the Java runtime still require setting of those heap limiting parameters to get something serious done?

Re:Java (1)

Xest (935314) | about 7 months ago | (#46147995)

No, those things are nothing to do with inherent problems with Java, and everything to do with the fact Eclipse is shit.

There are Java applications that are far more complex and require far higher stability and performance than Eclipse that work just fine. Eclipse is just an exceptionally bad piece of software.

Re:Java (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 7 months ago | (#46148729)

There are Java applications that are far more complex and require far higher stability and performance than Eclipse that work just fine.

Can you name some "client side" (something you'd run on your PC) pieces of software like that? Serious question - no snark.

Re:Java (3, Informative)

Xest (935314) | about 7 months ago | (#46148767)

On the desktop? Minecraft? Azureus? IntelliJ IDEA? OpenOffice? NetBeans? SoapUI?

If you're looking for substantially more complexity than these sorts of things though then there aren't really any desktop examples that come to mind. It's all server side stuff.

Re:Java (1)

lehphyro (1465921) | about 7 months ago | (#46148203)

Eclipse doesn't freeze for years for me and its performance is pretty ok for JavaEE development. I guess people are stuck with this "eclipse is slow" opinion just like some people still think java is slow.

Re:Java (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 7 months ago | (#46148735)

I guess people are stuck with this "eclipse is slow" opinion

It makes sense to be stuck with it when it comes from recent personal observations.

Say what? (1)

R3d Jack (1107235) | about 7 months ago | (#46148609)

I use Eclipse all day, every day. It's fast and stable, until certain plug-ins are added. Then, slowdowns happen, mostly because the plug-in is blocking because it is poorly written. As far as CTRL-C not working, I just don't see that. I don't have memory issues, either, as long as I create reasonably large heap, stack, and perm gen.

Re:Java (1)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | about 8 months ago | (#46147255)

What the hell would you be doing where optimizing a vtable lookup away will matter in the slightest?

Re:Java (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147333)

There are many things a VM like Java can do that you can't do in C++

The JVM is written in C++.

strictly false. C++ DOES everything Java does (0)

raymorris (2726007) | about 8 months ago | (#46147629)

> There are many things a VM like Java can do that you can't do in C++

Quite the opposite. In fact, there nothing Java can do without it doing it in both C and C++. Java is itself DATA, instructions for a C++ program. It's the C++ that does everything. The Java jvm is itself a C++ program (Oracle's version) or a C program (most others).

Re:strictly false. C++ DOES everything Java does (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | about 8 months ago | (#46147827)

But . . . C++ isn't webscale!

Re:strictly false. C++ DOES everything Java does (1)

Rufty (37223) | about 7 months ago | (#46148311)

It can be. [webtoolkit.eu]

Re:strictly false. C++ DOES everything Java does (1)

Daniel Hoffmann (2902427) | about 7 months ago | (#46148411)

Well there is nothing you can do in C++ that you can't do in a turing machine.

Re:Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147027)

Agreed. My question is why haven't they tried to start attacking all of the performance problems in the past TEN years? I use Eclipse every day, and it sucks to waste two or more hours per day waiting on Eclipse. I have 32 GBytes of RAM. Why does Eclipse still swap?

Re:Java (1)

SQLGuru (980662) | about 8 months ago | (#46147125)

Agreed. As a development environment, I really dislike Eclipse. The Visual Studio tool line is great (whether you like MS or not, it's a very developer-friendly tool). Eclipse is very cumbersome to use and seems to take forever for tasks that shouldn't. While I like that it's flexible, I'd rather just use Notepad++ and a command line compiler than run Eclipse.

Re:Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148211)

Well, why don't you just use Notepad++ and command line compiler?

Re:Java (1)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | about 8 months ago | (#46147163)

memory: did you tweak your heap size in eclipse.ini?

Re:Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148671)

Er... it's a computer program. It should adjust it's heap size itself based on the machine it's running on. yadda, yadda..

Re:Java (2, Funny)

TrollstonButterbeans (2914995) | about 8 months ago | (#46147321)

Dude, quit complaining and buy a new computers.

No seriously, that wasn't a typo.

Re:Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148299)

You should increase the JVM min and max heap sizes to 256MB and 2GB, or even bigger. This helps for most of the slowness, as the garbage collector is not running constantly. This helps especially when running the profiler for Android under the Eclipse. The slowness is not anymore such a big issue, and the stability of Eclipse has increased a lot within a year. Now it is not so common, that it just suddenly loses the keyboard shortcuts and one needs to restart it. Biggest problem I see on Eclipse now is that it can't parallelize the Java compiles, hence it takes seconds for it to auto-compile after one presses the save button.

I j*freeze*ust lo*freeze* Ecl*freeze*ipse (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46146943)

Smooth*freeze*est ride e*freeze*ver.

Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbeans (4, Insightful)

mark-t (151149) | about 8 months ago | (#46147007)

I always found Eclipse to be very fidgety, and I've only ever been able to get one non-java project debugging properly inside of it. Conversely, netbeans ... well.. it just works. It has full C++11 support these days, and is, in my opinion, much friendlier to pure java development, using ant as its native build tool.

(My money's on this comment being modded down by eclipse fanboys, ah, but what the hell, I'll post it anyways.)

Re:Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbea (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147217)

much friendlier to pure java development, using ant as its native build tool.

I won't mod you down, as I've used all three (IntelliJ, Eclipse, Netbeans) and they all have their pros and cons.

But "ant as its native build tool" YEESH. Get out of the dark ages, man, and get Gradle.

Re: Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbe (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148769)

Gradle sucks. Yulp is where its at these days.

Re:Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbea (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 8 months ago | (#46147273)

It's made by Oracle. Enough said

What I really want to type is Java is dying and a security nightmare, but sadly this ancient relic like IE 6 and Cobol won't die fast enough. I hate having apps requiring one version that conflict and constantly infects the same systems over and over again due to the +100 security holes!! I have read many posters switching to c++ for these reasons

Like SCO you hurt the Foss by using Oracle products.

Re:Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbea (1)

mark-t (151149) | about 8 months ago | (#46147339)

I have no love for Oracle, but I use netbeans because, as I said... it works. And it works better than anything else I've tried.

Re:Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbea (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147593)

It's made by Oracle. Enough said

It was made by Sun and I have yet to see them fu** it up like they did MySQL and OpenOffice. It does not compete with one of their cash cows and is used to develop Java software. That they have not done anything to it now has me hopeful that it will stay that way for a few more years.

What I really want to type is Java is dying and a security nightmare

Applets != Java. No browser plug-in == no security nightmare. Also every current browser blocks Java Applets by default even when the plug-in is installed, to the point that I had to click away around ten warnings to get a work internal tool to run, for a web-page consisting of only local files no less.

Neither the client nor the server applications written in Java are affected by the holes in the Applet sandbox, which means that Java is not a security nightmare the way most developers actually use it and that fixing Applet bugs is not a high priority (so Applets from untrusted sources will stay a security nightmare).

Re:Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbea (1)

vikingpower (768921) | about 8 months ago | (#46147687)

Amen. I have been using Forte for Java, then Netbeans. In the mean time ( years, really ) I did one or the other odd project on Eclipse. No comparison in ergonomy and user-friendliness. Netbeans gives you the tools you need in obvious places; in Eclipse, you must either search for the tool, or you have dozens of them lying around when you really need only one. Eclipse = usability hell.

Re:Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbea (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148045)

There's no such thing as an Eclipse fanboy, just fresh Java graduates who were forced to use it in the first company they worked at and haven't had the breadth of experience to try anything else.

It's not that they're fanboys, they just don't know any better, they haven't used enough other tools to objectively compare how bad Eclipse actually is.

Re:Worked with it for months - still prefer Netbea (1)

Threni (635302) | about 7 months ago | (#46148625)

I found Eclipse horrible. IntelliJ or Netbeans both look better, are faster, leaner and just...feel better. So many "solutions" to problems on Eclipse involve uninstalling and reinstalling, or using the "restart" option on the File menu (don't laugh). Why? Why is it recomended you don't uninstall plugins you no longer want to use? Does it have to be that unstable?

Eclipse (1, Offtopic)

rossdee (243626) | about 8 months ago | (#46147019)

All that you touch
All that you see
All that you taste
All you feel.
All that you love
All that you hate
All you distrust
All you save.
All that you give
All that you deal
All that you buy,
beg, borrow or steal.
All you create
All you destroy
All that you do
All that you say.
All that you eat
And everyone you meet
All that you slight
And everyone you fight.
All that is now
All that is gone
All that's to come
and everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.

"There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."
 

Re:Eclipse (1)

TheloniousToady (3343045) | about 8 months ago | (#46147247)

I suppose you'll be quoting Pink Floyd's "Bitcoin" next...

Try to keep up (1)

TrollstonButterbeans (2914995) | about 8 months ago | (#46147351)

It's called RonPaulCoin now. Geez!

BigBlackCOCK! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147457)

It's called RonPaulCoin now. Geez!

I jizzed in yo mama's anus.

Giant contribution (3, Interesting)

bug_hunter (32923) | about 8 months ago | (#46147055)

Eclipse and Java make a bit of a unique pair. Java is massively verbose by today's standards, but it's strict typing and highly declarative approach allows your IDE to do amazing things when it comes to refactoring or code analysis. Then there's the fact that Eclipse is by no means just a Java IDE, but that's just part of its giant eco-system.

Eclipse is one of the reasons I was super sad that Oracle bought Java instead of IBM. IBM at least proved they can make a good product using Java, using its strengths and subverting its weaknesses.

Re: Giant contribution (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | about 8 months ago | (#46147089)

Uhm, Java IS the standard these days.

Re: Giant contribution (3, Interesting)

hibiki_r (649814) | about 8 months ago | (#46147295)

Depending on the kind of development you are on, maybe. There's plenty of people moving to shinier things though, mainly due to Java's excessive verbosity and lack of support of functional features. For insance, you see Fortune 500 companies placing ads for Scala developers. And people don't move to Scala because they have nostalgia for the C++ era's compile times. There's plenty of growth out there by other second tier languages who people choose to increase speed of development. And there's of course C#, which actually attempts to evolve at a decent rate.

So while Java is still a very used language in industry, you won't see any language getting any uptake today if they replicate Java's love for boilerplate.

We could also talk about the tools that are often used with Java that just promote the mindless verbosity. We all remember how terrible EJB 1.0 and 2.0 were. But then we got Spring and Hibernate, which are only slightly better than the disease. You can choose between monstruous XML formats with no real type checking, leading to a whole lot of runtime errors, or annotations that are slightly less verbose, and yet are just as prone to runtime errors. You end up needing such high test coverage to double check for those 'helpful' technologies that you might as well have been using a purely dynamic language in the first place: It's not as if the compiler protects you from careless mistakes in annotations or XML files. To offset this, we need an IDE and some complex configuration, raising the bar for building even the simplest application. No wonder people found Rails so refreshing when it first came out.

Re: Giant contribution (1)

clockwise_music (594832) | about 8 months ago | (#46147615)

You can choose between monstruous XML formats with no real type checking, leading to a whole lot of runtime errors, or annotations that are slightly less verbose, and yet are just as prone to runtime errors.

This. THIS.

I was so happy to ditch Java after 2 years and move to .NET. Java is just configuration hell. Everything takes twice as long because you're fighting the infrastructure instead of actually getting stuff to work. The language itself is the easy part - it's the setup, the config files, the extra config files, the extra extra extra XML files... hell on a stick. Eclipse didn't make it easier, it made it even harder. I couldn't believe how easy c# and visual studio was in comparison. And because Microsoft seemed to have completely ripped of Java's syntax for .NET it was a cinch making the switch.

Re: Giant contribution (1)

Threni (635302) | about 7 months ago | (#46148669)

Get someone to check out a c# solution containing a number of projects, and open it in visual studio. (Clue: double click on the .sln file, then...oh, that's it). Then get someone to do the same for a java project in Eclipse.

How does .net not need all the hand holding and class-path manipulation and importing and so on? Conversely, what does Eclipse provide java developers which .net cannot?

Re:Giant contribution (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147485)

Java... highly declarative approach...

...

Declarative eco-system maybe? (1)

bug_hunter (32923) | about 8 months ago | (#46147737)

Maybe a clumsy choice of words, but I was thinking about the heavy use of annotations, or XML or property files used by many of the popular Java technologies.
Things are rarely glued together with scripting in the Java ecosystem, somehow it lends itself to complex XML config.
Eclipse can statically analysis all the XML config (and annotations etc) to show the developer how everything fits together in a more visual and cross referencing way.

Others in this conversation chain have mentioned how this approach often falls apart under complexity though regardless of how good your tools are.

Re:Giant contribution (1)

Zeromous (668365) | about 7 months ago | (#46148637)

Why would IBM buy Java? They roll their own JVM.

Maybe if IBM had chosen a different name (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147073)

McNealy would've gone through with the deal and IBM would own Java instead of Oracle.

Of course, if that had happened, all of the Sun developers for Java in the US and Western Europe would've been laid off by now. Gotta keep those EPS numbers on an onward and upward trend, because that's what IBM stands for.

For the haters (4, Interesting)

ADRA (37398) | about 8 months ago | (#46147091)

I've been using Eclipse on for pretty much 10years now and by and large, the tool has been pretty darn soliod. its a memory pig so get over it. I throw 1.5G at the heap and though it rarely if ever gets close to it, the amout of speed it performs mosdt operations is amazing.

There are warts which I find personally lousy (like Mylyn of the built-in profiler, and much of the built-in text validators), but thankfully most of those can be trivially turned off and tweaked to speed up usage even more. With a few choice plug-ins, you can do a lot of the hard lifting without effort.

I've only had cursory usage of Netbeans/Idea, but Kepler is really a dream to use. Note, almost every first few months of a new release are generally ass, and Juno was entirely ass so be warned. Just because one version of Eclipse may be a flake, don't discount the platform.

Re:For the haters (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 8 months ago | (#46147301)

My 2010 era machine runs it fine with 8 gigs. Some folks have really old machines as the corps now look at IT as an expense rather than an asset and tax write off.

No one besides a secretary should have an XP machine with 2 gigs of ram in 2014. You throw productivity away otherwise.

and yet... (3, Interesting)

buddyglass (925859) | about 8 months ago | (#46147113)

...I'm still running 3.7 because the 4.x releases are (by all accounts) still not "fixed". Sigh.

Re:and yet... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148247)

Well, you could at least upgrade to 3.8

Re:and yet... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148753)

See I said away from 4.x because of the performance reasons. However, with Kepler, I've upgraded. 4.x before that (well it got better in 4.2) was terrible on my i7, 16 GB laptop. That's unpossible! Kepler is stable, fairly quick, and doesn't look absolutely terrible in Linux. So now I get that and all of my plugins. Pretty good fix.

Seems to freeze less on CentOs VM than Win7 physic (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147153)

I've been using Eclipse for a few months on CentOs virtual machines for MapReduce development. The Maven m2e plugin is a huge boon. I never noticed Eclipse freezing unless it was doing something like cleaning the workspace, or updating the Maven local repo, or something like that, in which case it tells me it's doing something.

I started doing more Java SE work, so I loaded the same setup onto my workstation that hosts the VMs, which is a pretty decent Win7 machine, and now sometimes it just freezes, then catches up really quickly like lag in an online game...still stays pretty darn normal in Linux. Weird.

10 years... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147229)

...and I'm still waiting for it to load!

Re:10 years... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147335)

lol

Re:10 years... (1)

clockwise_music (594832) | about 8 months ago | (#46147525)

LOL.

Re:10 years... (1)

OhANameWhatName (2688401) | about 8 months ago | (#46147681)

lol

Which is caused by... (1)

R3d Jack (1107235) | about 7 months ago | (#46148623)

your anti-virus software. This is a drawback of Java in general, as anti-virus insists on scanning every one of those files in the JAR's.

The modern emacs (3, Interesting)

oldhack (1037484) | about 8 months ago | (#46147355)

Eclipse has become a universe onto itself. It's got its own GUI kit, thread model, all kinds of stuff I'm too drunk to name at this moment.

Re:The modern emacs (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46147585)

except you can use emacs to do things

OSGi (4, Informative)

emorning (2465220) | about 8 months ago | (#46147377)

One of the most awesome things that the Eclipse people did was switch to a foundation built on OSGi after the first version. Eclipse is a showcase that showcase the power of a modular component framework.
Sun really screwed up by failing to adopt OSGi for Java's module system.

When I think of the best technologies available to the average Java developer like myself I rank the JVM first and OSGi second.

With setup boxes now set to become ubiquitous, I want a box that integrates some OSGi-like framework that will enable me to integrate all the devices in my house.

Re:OSGi (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46147905)

OSGI is a pig, complicated and verbose, it was a good idea not to adopit it. But either way the problem was that sun screwed up with osgi alternatives.

Re:OSGi (1)

dkf (304284) | about 7 months ago | (#46148073)

One of the most awesome things that the Eclipse people did was switch to a foundation built on OSGi after the first version.
Eclipse is a showcase that showcase the power of a modular component framework.

The silly thing is that Eclipse is actually close to being the poster child for how not to do an application on top of OSGi. Equinox itself (the OSGi layer) is fine, but Eclipse effectively works very hard to not use the power it provides, instead doing its own weird things with class loaders that mean that you're stuck in a horrible limbo land where nothing quite works as you might hope.

Re:OSGi (1)

lehphyro (1465921) | about 7 months ago | (#46148213)

OSGi is a mess, I'm glad we're not going to use a runtime solution for something best solved at build time such as modularity for Java.

Eclipse as a platform (1)

viperidaenz (2515578) | about 8 months ago | (#46147611)

It's great.
There a lot of shitty plugins when used as an IDE, like the Javascript ones that add JS validation and builders to your web projects, bring the IDE to a standstill when every they run.

Six of one (1)

msobkow (48369) | about 8 months ago | (#46147645)

Eclipse is six of one, half a dozen of the other. I've used it for many years, but the Kepler release has decided that it's going to do something Eclipse never did in the past: crash. Hard. As in *poof* -- it's gone.

It's also been freezing up under Debian at random.

The windows build seems more stable, and that's what I use for most debug sessions, but I *prefer* to work on my Linux box due to the better resolution and nicer interface devices than my laptop.

But hey, it's a big project (both Eclipse and my own.) Big projects have bugs. Period. I certainly can't complain about Eclipse, all in all. It does what I need, does it well enough, and integrates with JEE debugging environments. Can't really expect something dealing with that big a pile of steaming code to also be stable.

Eclipse (1)

hackus (159037) | about 8 months ago | (#46147843)

Well, I love it for just about all my C/Android/Java Servlet programming.

The only thing I can't really use it for is LINUX kernel programming/device driver development.

Just too big.

But I would like to thank everyone who works on the plugins for Eclipse, especially Toad which is one of my favorites and svn plugin.

Kisses and hugs to you all.

xoxoxox :-)

Personally (2)

ledow (319597) | about 8 months ago | (#46147859)

Eclipse is my saviour. I needed a UI to program under and I haven't really been happy with one since the pre-.NET versions of Visual Basic (horrendous language, lovely development environment for me - I honestly think we lost something in not taking that UI further in open-source development environments).

Got back into C99 and Eclipse with CDT was phenomenal. Bit of faffing with the config at first but I was able to get a development environment consistent across platforms, with all the tools you could ever want.

The debug UI is fabulous, to me. The customisability of the workspace (get out of my damn way and let me code, oh except for that one REALLY useful feature that's earned the right to be there all the time, etc.). In a way, it's my development "Opera" - hugely customisable to my particular odd way of working.

Plug it into gcc in its various flavours (native Linux, MinGW, Cygwin, etc.) and it's quite happy. Move your program to a Linux VM for testing and you can take the development UI with you if need be.

Plug in every kind of tool imaginable, including fairly decent versioning management (not its strongest suit but more than capable). Upgrade simply by making a copy of the eclipse folder and then running the upgrade over the top.

And - at the end of the day - when you have to write that Android wrapper for your program, or the website or online documentation of your masterpiece, you can do without even having to come out of it.

Eclipse is what got me back into my programming and allowed me to push out several apps for my employers on a whim. None of the other programs managed that.

And, best of all, it's free and keeps moving onwards. All the people I've heard whinge about Eclipse (which I've only been using since before Galileo) complain about it being heavy/buggy. It's something I've honestly not experienced and, damn, my buggy programming must test it to the limit sometimes. If you're developing on a "light" machine, I can't see how you're helping yourself. But I'm not using a supercomputer here, just a handful of fairly decent laptops / desktops.

I think Eclipse is a little like Windows. Keep it clean, don't experiment too much with random third-party junk, and make backups of the working config (so easy in Eclipse that I have a folder of every named release that I've ever used just in case I needed to rollback) and it'll stay up and stay working. Mess about with it too much and it'll turn into an unmanaged piece of junk.

I can't honestly say that I've ever seen it crash, though. And we're talking Windows (XP / 7) / Linux (Slackware and Ubuntu, several versions), desktop / laptop, old clunker and shiny new machine, and quite a lot of stuff plugged in (CDT, Android SDK, several SVN connectors as they've changed over the years, Valgrind, etc.).

code style (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46147879)

have they improved default code style, finally?

Heh. Java is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46147925)

...when you need Heavy Industrial Machinery just to do code refactoring.

yes its flaming dog poop, but.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46147951)

I agree with most of the people on here that eclipse is a bloated buggy piece of flaming dog poop, only bearable if you are "coding" in java (although in actuallity it's more like paint by numbers and has little to do with actual software engineering). The question I have is what IS a good IDE? because as shitty as eclipse is, it's the best I've seen so far. Netbeans and kdevelop appear to be exact clones of the terrible UI and layout of eclipse as well, so they're out, even though they are probably more stable and less bloated. I code in mostly C and PHP (my php tends to look kind of like C#), and there doesn't appear to be any good IDEs for these languages. I've been using Quanta for PHP and Kate for C for the last 10 years or so, pico/nano before that, but it would be nice to have an actual IDE that does all the project management and allows me to step through my programs. At the moment it's still 100-gillion times easier to do it all manually then to wrestle with a bull like eclipse... sadly :(

I don't get all the negativity (2)

mooterSkooter (1132489) | about 7 months ago | (#46148183)

It works fine for me. I like the fact I can just copy over the whole eclipes 'install' directory from one computer to another and it just seems to work.

Same with workspaces, just copy that whole thing over. Works fine.

I also use a mercurial plugin with it to save my code to bitbucket. Again, works like a dream.

It's never crashed or slowed down for me (though I rarely update it, because it just works)

However, I mainly code in C++ with it and have only produced one commercial java/android project with it...that worked fine too.

In fact, I love it so much that I donated to them recently.

The only other IDE I think is better in M$ Visual Studio...but that doesn't run on linux and uses shed-loads of disk space, so they can keep it.

Been using a version of 3.6 for 3-4 years now. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148235)

I have been using eclipse v3.6 with android plugin for android development for a few years now. I have tried newer versions of eclipse, but they eventually crash and burn within a day. I have no time to waste trying to make my eclipse start after the workspace has been fucked by shitty plugins. I really don't get why 3.6 is the most solid version I have used but I stick to it because it crashes the least!

Absolute nonsense (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148627)

TFA makes the ridiculous and obviously false claim that Eclipse has become the de facto standard for C development in the embedded world. Apart from the fact that you don't need an IDE for C programming anyway (only defective languages like Java require an IDE to reduce the pain and suffering), nobody in their right mind would do any sort of C development using software written in Java. I call bullshit!

NetBeans FTW. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46148709)

Every year or two I give Eclipse another try, and every time I give up and go
back to NetBeans. One huge reason is the build system is based on ant (java)
or make (C/C++) so you don't need to fire up the IDE to do a production.

And even for Android work, where the standard IDE is Eclipse, I use
NetBeans.

YMMV.

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