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Amelio, Raskin, Gassée On What Apple Means

timothy posted about 13 years ago | from the great-fruit-really-tart dept.

Apple 317

John Paczkowski writes: " is currently hosting the third in its series of online Roundtable discussions. Our topic is 'Does Apple Matter?' and as you might imagine conversation has been quite spirited. Among our guests: Jean-Louis Gassée -- chairman and CEO of Be and former head of head of product development at Apple, former Apple chairman and CEO Gil Amelio, former Macintosh project manager Jef Raskin, and Mark Gonzales, a former senior Apple product manager who worked on the company's 'Star Trek' project. You'll find the introduction to the event here and the discussion itself here."

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Gassasse is now the former CEO Of BE (1)

Motheius (449386) | about 13 years ago | (#2109632) etsale.html

Re:Gassasse is now the former CEO Of BE (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2134982)

i like the way it split assestsale into 'ass' and 'etsale' LOL

Innovation (5, Interesting)

BWJones (18351) | about 13 years ago | (#2110063)

Many folks forget just how many things that Apple has contributed to the computer industry.

The home PC. Would it have happened? Yes, but Apple was there first with some innovations like built in video with color, built in BASIC etc.etc.etc... Apple was the first to offer color in the personal computer industry. And by the way Woz designed the whole damned thing. Apple I and Apple II........ himself. No engineering team needed until packaging and optimization were required.

The GUI thing has been hyped to death and yes I know that they bought the rights from Xerox. But what about the CD drive? Remember having to install applications using floppies? Hell, M$ office was a little skyscraper of floppies. Apple adopted the CD drive mechanism and ended up paying the cost via a lawsuit from Apple records claiming music infringement. And while we are on removeable media, Apple essentially standardized the little 3.25 in hard plastic floppy. Yes they were around, but nobody in the PC business was using them until Apple in the IIe and Lisa.

The first real portable computers. Yes I remember the Osborne. But at 50 pounds with a 4in screen I hardly call that portable. The Mac Portable was still 25 lbs but you could carry it on an airplane and fit it under the seat. However the first real portable that we consider being laptops was again Apple with the original Powerbook. This computer standardized the palm rests with they keyboard in front and the pointing device between the palm rests.

What about USB? Yes it is an Intel standard but nobody was really using it until Apple standardized it on the iMac. And what about Firewire? Again, Apple.

The PDA. The Newton was way ahead of its time, but would we have Palm Pilots without it? Probably not.

How about Colorsync? Thats color matching software for those that don't know. It was a bit of a stealth software package but many industries rely heavily on it.

Hey, BUILT IN NETWORKING!!!! Back in 1985 Apple started shipping systems with built in networking presaging the concept of networked computers and the Internet.

Apple was the first company to combine TV with a PC. Back in 1993? I think I can remember seeing MacintoshTVs in our campus bookstore. They were black. Pretty cool. This essentially is years ahead of where we will be in the next three years with TV and PC's.

Speaking of multimedia, Quicktime. Back in 91 I think, Apple comes out with this cool software that does it all. Video sound and other multimedia that is cross platform.

Plug and play. Apple was years ahead of anyone else here and they still are. Damn, remember all of those ISA bus conflicts and how hard they were if you happened to have two or three cards installed at the same time? Also Apple allowed any configuration to be done in software instead of cracking the case and playing with DIP switches.

Essentially fronting the development of the laser printer and making it practical. Apple funded Adobe to get their start and produce software to drive laser printers. Thus starting the whole desktop publishing industry.

Case design. I am not talking about iMac juicy goodness. I am talking practical case design to allow one easy access to the guts. The 8600 and 9600 models started this with easy open sides and flip apart cases that allowed easy access to memory and PCI cards.

We could go on and on here with past innovations, but is Apple still relevant and is the industry still following their lead? Yes. Apple is the first company to really take UNIX by the horns and make it a mainstream OS for the masses that still retains the power and flexibility of UNIX. This is huge. They are still driving engineering with Firewire (something the rest of the industry is now adopting. Even Intel) Quicktime has yet to reach its stride. Eventually it will become a platform of its own for the dissemination of media. M$ knows this, they know that Apple has better technology and it scares the piss out of them.

iMovie and iDVD are revolutionary in the power they give to the average consumer that never before was available unless you wanted to spend $5-10k on software and hardware. Now you can purchase an iMac for less than $1000 that will do this.

Apple was the first company to go to an all LCD line. We all knew this would happen, but Apple is again the first company with the balls to do it.

One has only to look at M$ in their software products. M$ Windows certainly owes much to Apple, but so does their bread and butter product Office. Apple fronted development of Excel for the Mac and Powerpoint from another company. Even today M$ borrows heavily from Apple in all of its software. Control panels, trash cans, in older software, newer software contains all sorts of appearance issues, interface issues and applications that can all be seen cropping up in XP and their product previews for after XP.

Again, we could go on and on here, and I have no idea why Apple does not spend any marketing efforts on showing the world how innovative they are, but as any individual or company that is truly innovative and running so far ahead of anyone else, they are busy doing the next big thing and not focusing on the past.

Re:Innovation (3, Insightful)

mr_burns (13129) | about 13 years ago | (#2131624)

I come from an Apple family. I saw the first cd-rom drive for a PC a year before any of you did. It was cool. My dad had just gotten back from Japan, and he had to make me swear to tell nobody about what I had seen in our den. It was my first exposure to manga and anime. I had never thought of images that cool coming from a computer. It was a breakthrough. Yes, there was macpaint, and the function in or near it that allowed you to animate (in the mid 80's!!!), but this was the stuff...650MB..that was unheard of.

This was a formative experience for me. It was the day when I learned that computers weren't for sitting around and typing, it was a way to say something profound.

Now, there will be kids having the same experience . Only nowadays, it will be with emacs/VI and gcc. Maybe they'll use the GIMP or Broadcast2000.

The question is not if Apple matters. It's if kids, and to a greater extent humanity matters. If a legion of kids can have the same revelation with Open Source that I did because of the CD-ROM drive, then maybe Apple will have really changed the world for the better.

Making UNIX usable for my grandma, and my future kids is an innovation that only Apple has pulled off.

I think they matter (4, Informative)

sentientbrendan (316150) | about 13 years ago | (#2112762)

I am a mac user and have been for a long time. Its hard for people who aren't mac users to understand why we like the mac. Most people on slashdot can understand our aversion to windows but few know exactly why we like the platform.
Let me take some time to explain. I'm going to use os 9 for my explanation even though I use osx because the intereface design for osx is still pretty new and unrefined. One reply to the article referred negatively to the macs "flowery" interface. Although I think the interface is rather pleasing to the eye, at least on the default platinum theme, the primary force behind its design was functionality.
There is consistent well thought out design present in the interface. It is responsive and every feature present in the system software is easily accessible. The system software rarely crashes unless there is some conflict with the extensions (well os9 crashes a lot more than linux but to be fair os9 and linux were never competing on any front. osx on the other hand can hold its own ground.). Since the os vender is also the OEM all of the new hardware that runs the mac os will run it well (after a brief stint with clones apple decided that they were a bad idea for a company that makes most of its money from hardware sales).

I don't know if that made anything clear to anyone. I'm not trying to get any linux users to go buy a mac but I dislike how some linux users seem to not understand how any intelligent person could ever prefer the mac os. I mean its not like were windows users and just use it because it came with the box (although it did) and runs the latest games.

Re:I think they matter (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2126265)

I think perhaps that we (the mac useing /.ers) should write a more indepth list of reasons why we're so loyal to the OS and the company. On a different note, unlike Linux, my OS is garunteed to support my hardware. I tried to get a small Mandrake box running as a firewall, and it couldn't even maintain proper duplexing on the 3-com ethernet cards. Even my friend (a sys admin for Advanced Fibre Communications) couldn't make it work properly, and he does it for a living. Linux even runs more reliably on an Alpha than a damn Intell or AMD box.

Oh, they matter (1)

Decimal Dave (411182) | about 13 years ago | (#2114459)

A lot of people are saying that Apple doesn't matter because thay don't innovate anymore. I think I can counter that.

AFAIK, Apple is the only organization thus far to make UNIX available to the masses. Additionally, I know of no other modern desktop OS that uses a vector-based graphics engine (this will be a very important model for future graphics hardware technology). They're pushing hardware design with convection cooling and compact hardware, as in the G4 Cube. Apple also helped to show the benefits of DV by making DV editing available to everyone in a truly usable package. I also believe their vision for the direction of personal computing, as being the "digital hub" for embedded consumer devices. Most importantly, Apple is the only real alternative that consumers have to Microsoft (before you flame me, understand that Linux is not ready for general consumption yet)

Can anyone say that none of this matters?

re:apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2116277)

Apple is nice because
well it is
the UI is awsome, the hardware is nice, the g4 just looks realy nice.

My $0.02 ($0.03 CAN) (3, Interesting)

clevershark (130296) | about 13 years ago | (#2118061)

For some reason I have always had a predilection for underdogs... and that's why I'll always have a soft spot for Cupertino. Without Apple I really do feel that the computer industry is headed in a very dull and bloated way, especially with the Gates-and-Uncle-Fester mantra of "all your base are belong to us".

At the same time I am frankly quite tired of fighting that old fight. OS X is good, but frankly, where are the big apps? Adobe is shamelessly dragging its feet, even after Apple went out of their way to create Carbon as a way to port the "classic" apps to the new OS natively. Apple itself has dumped some technologies that were pretty essential to the old OS (like Input Sprockets), and for all its UNIX underpinnings OS X remains a classic Jobsian top-down project. Sure, you can hack it, but only to a certain extent. So it fails in achieving the sheer usefulness in graphic design that the "classic" MacOS has, the do-it-yourself aspects of Linux, and the ubiquitousness of the lowest common denominator, which shall here remain nameless.

Technologically OS X was a great idea. In the practical world it didn't quite turn out that way. This isn't about whether people like Aqua or not, this is about whether the OS can deliver a platform which is useful in my daily life, and sadly I can't say that it does at this point.

And that's why my Mac gets used less and less, and my cheap "roll-your-own" Linux box with a 1.3G Athlon processor gets most of the attention at my place these days. "Back in the day" I was an ardent a fan of Apple as they get (I'm one of those weirdos with a tatoo, of all things), and I don't regret those days, but people change. Computers change. And computer companies sure as hell change. I just think that Apple has seriously lost its way, and that instead of concentrating on their concrete, established strengths they have decided to open whole new cans of worms for the sake of some abstract (though very valid) OS concepts, and in doing so they really lost track of what put them where they were -- not the majority by any stretch, but a strong minority that was loyal as hell and a constant pain the Borg's butt.

Attention Faggot: (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2158833)

The joke of expressing the phrase "my two cents" in decimal, and then in other currencies, whore out when 14.4 was fast for a modem. (And no I did not misspell "whore", whore.) The only person who still thinks that is funny is Jeane Teasdale over on the Onion.

Perhaps you would like to upgrade to a bit more recent kitchy joke ? Maybe shouting "Excellent, Dude!" like in that super-cool movie about Bill and Ted ?

Eventually, you may also come to realization that Apples suck. But I wouldn't put it past you to die in ignorance.

Hope that helps !

Re:My $0.02 ($0.03 CAN) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2158881)

OS X isn't even feature finished yet, still a 1.0 product and you're already treating it as a failed and failed again experiment. Why? Just because *some* of the big apps aren't out yet? A lot of people are finding this platform extremely useful. Just like every other new OS release out there, it just takes time. But this is a grand failure just because the apps you want aren't there in native form yet (although most run just fine under Classic since you say this isn't about Aqua)... okay.... If that's true, Linux would be dead in the trash long ago.

Re:My $0.02 ($0.03 CAN) (1)

HeghmoH (13204) | about 13 years ago | (#2160952)

You're talking about a product that's been shipping in its 1.0 version for six months, and saying things like "it didn't quite turn out that way"?? It's slightly early to make judgements, here. Linux 1.0 sucked pretty hard, too. Wait until September and the 10.1 update. Wait for Photoshop, Office, Maya, and a bunch of other big apps to ship for X. Wait a year or two, and then we'll see whether X is a bomb. I think it won't be.

Re:My $0.02 ($0.03 CAN) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2130385)

Maya started shipping at MWNY

Jean-Louis Gasse (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2119649)

I wondered what he was going to do for kicks. Considering he turned down $125 from Apple for Be a few years ago -- and just had to sell for a paltry $11 million (in stock) to Palm. He needs the work.

(A shame. Be was *good* and had a hell of a lot of potential. Sort of like an Amiga for the 1990s.)

Apple's Pink OS (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2126322)

Does Pink = OS X or is it this [] ?

Of course they do (1)

chairmanKAGA (515972) | about 13 years ago | (#2126325)

Many people enjoy the Mac OS over Windows or Linux ...for it's ease of use, GUI or whatever other reason. I like OS X as I get everything I need in an OS. I love logging in via SSH from school changing some things, checking the irc channel out with BitchX and then running PhotoShop for whatever reason. No other Os offers that, none.
Programming OS X in Cocoa using objectiveC (a BETTER alternative to C++...for a GUI anyways) is a great hobbie I have right now and makes for a great profession. the number of mac users to programmers is great.
Go ahead and mock Apple and Macintosh..
I don't care...I don't need these "experts" to tell me what if my computer or OS of choice is "relevent" or crap or great for that matter. Apple makes a fine product and I love it. Also, usually I can tell people everything about their OS (linux/windows/be) but they can't tell me a thing about Mac. What do *you* really know about a Macintosh anyways?
Besides, the PPC is a fine chip and the assembly is a lot more exciting then X86 =)

First impression (3, Insightful)

osgeek (239988) | about 13 years ago | (#2128855)

I haven't had time to do more than just glance at a few of the commentaries, and I'll go through it in more depth later -- but my initial impression is:


I mean, sure, criticism has its place. Just because someone makes more money than you do, or is more succesful in other ways, doesn't make them above criticism. I've been mightily critical of Apple in the past, and will continue to harp on them here and there. How much genius does it takes to see that multi-buttoned mice with mousewheels are a boon to productivity? Oh, man, and don't get me started on that stupid hockey-puck mouse that Steve just refused to discontinue, no matter how many people internal to Apple complained about it.

It's just the smell of arrogance that you get from reading a forum of "experts" on "Does Apple Matter," with the headline "expert" being Gil Amelio, the dumbass that almost finished destroying the company. He's like that idiot in every Mafia movie, than talks too much, thinks he knows too much, fucks up a lot, then he gets whacked. You maybe feel a bit sorry for him; but you know that if he hadn't been such a moron, he would have lived a lot longer.

Sorry, I'll go chill out for a bit.

The facts are out there (5, Informative)

henrikg (444714) | about 13 years ago | (#2130856)

Well, isn't it interesting to see the self-serving comments by people trying to rewrite history, whether it is a former engineer or a former CEO, to make themselves get the credit for the success of Apple or the Mac.

There are a lot of myths out there about Apple, and especially about the birth of the Mac. Fortunately, today there is a great source of historical facts for those who are interested or just care about the truth:

Making the Macintosh: Technology and Culture in Silicon Valley [] at the Stanford Computer History Archives.

Go there to find out that Apple did not "rip off" the GUI from Xerox. For example, a large piece of the truth is that the people at PARC who invented these concepts had to leave for Apple to find a company that was interested in their ideas.

Go there to find out why the Mac mouse has one button.

Go there to find out the reality behind Jef Raskin's claims that he created the Mac. Yes, he started the project. But in his vision, it should not have a GUI, neither a mouse. But he was very much concerned about it having a "programmable calculator-like programming language". Although he did want it to essentialliy have an Internet connection (in the late 70's). Engelbart's NLS was also an important inspiration.

Or just visit that archive to find out about the genuine innovations that were made at the time when a mediocre box called the IBM PC was put together. You don't have to be an Apple zealot to appreciate it, the material there has much more general relevance. But the space of a /. comment is too small to do it all justice.

Does Apple Matter? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2131990)

Not to me!!! Macs suck.

Apple? Doesn't matter. (0)

narfbot (515956) | about 13 years ago | (#2131991)

Apple had a day when it really mattered. - The early 1980's

Today, I think it doesn't matter much. It's just another computer company trying to make money.

To me, Apple is as bad as Microsoft. Both are trying to make themselves the solution and make other solutions look backwards. They both have their own figure heads (Steve Jobs, Bill Gates).
And why don't they matter to me: They are closed sourced (they try to make it seem otherwise)

Linux does matter. Linux can run on almost any personal computer now without much trouble. They are great for networking. Linux may not be for you now, or ever. But Linux does matter because it will shape the future.

What makes linux so important? It doesn't restrict the users freedom. Tell me anything else recent that matter. I don't think there is one.

Re:Apple? Doesn't matter. (2, Interesting)

TH4L35 (310071) | about 13 years ago | (#2160383)

Well, I think that now is also a fairly important time for Apple, -maybe even more so than the 80's- for personal computer development.

I'm not trying to draw fire here, but Linux is just not ready for consumption by the general public. Some of it the difficulty is because of drivers (which will be quickly cleared up as soon as manufactures stop making new hardware ;), but most of the real problems come from not having a monolithic type of effort towards a unified and consistent interface (ie: You can install Red Hat ten times and never see the same set of options twice).

Apple is shaping the future by permitting -albeit slowly- the "freedoom" that GNU users enjoy to permeate its way into the mainstream. And I'm not just talking about OS X being built on a BSD kernel. Maybe Apple's "open" source license isn't perfect, but it is a heck of a lot more free than Micro$oft's efforts. Also, IMHO, Apple has been far more lenient than most of the other mainstream computer manufacturers when it comes to proposing and enforcing copy protection schemes.

These things lead me to state that Apple is contributing much more to the future of computers than fine industrial design and intuitive interfaces.

Re:Apple? Doesn't matter. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2139114)

The fact is, Apple is provioding machines that run a flavor of LINUX, that has garunteed support for all of Apples hardware. Once drivers are made for Darwin, they can be easily ported to other flavors of LINUX. On another note, Apple is the first consumer computer maker to ship LINUX support on every new machine, which allows it to be introduced to people who may have never considered useing it, without limiting them to only LINUX.

I/O Kit (1)

TheInternet (35082) | about 13 years ago | (#2116282)

Once drivers are made for Darwin, they can be easily ported to other flavors of LINUX

Darwin uses I/O Kit. I assume this is quite different from what Linux uses.

- Scott

Does Amiga matter? (3, Interesting)

Animats (122034) | about 13 years ago | (#2133717)

The future of Apple may look like the present of the Amiga. [] There's a hard core of fanatical users. Machines are still manufactured and sold, although in very small volume by PC standards. New models come out occasionally. New releases of software appear now and then. And nobody outside the fan club notices.

Re:Does Amiga matter? (1)

Zergwyn (514693) | about 13 years ago | (#2127719)

The problem with that is that Apple and Amiga are at very different points right now. Apple has very healthy R&D, application development, and base of people. They are again making in-roads into education, and their new OS is great. I love having a CLI available along with a consistant GUI and few driver hassles.

It is also important to remember that in an industry where many PC clone makers have margins hovering between an anemic 5 and 10 percent, Apple's is hovering around 30 percent. In fact, it was Tim Bajarin who recently wrote [] that in this consumer market bloodbath, many of the companies are likely to be gone. His picks for the survivors? Sony and Apple. Both have great name recognition, a focus on potentially becoming a digital hub, and enough money(Sony is obviously Sony, Apple has over $4 billion in cash in the bank) and profits to survive. The coming years should be interesting. I look forward to seeing how it all turns out!

Hi (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2134160)

I used to work for Apple, but now I work for Microsoft and I love this company. I work in the OS department and I love this company.
I've read some articles here on Slashdot that "microserfs" are brainwashed idiots who sold their soul for money, but it's not true, I love this company.
As for Apple, I have not hard feelings about them, and comparing them to my current employer all I can say is that I love this company.

Re:Hi (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2119647)

I have four words for you..


Re:Hi (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2158583)

dude, eat any weird oatmeal lately?

Re:Hi (1)

l0wland (463243) | about 13 years ago | (#2131256)

"all I can say is that I love this company"

C'mon, DANCE MONKEY BOY !!! Yeeeeeaaaaah !!!!

Bias? (5, Informative)

mr100percent (57156) | about 13 years ago | (#2134431)

You can't really have much of a roundtable if most of the people there blatantly hate Apple.

Gil Amelio was thrown out in a boardroom coup. He killed the clones, and failed as a CEO in most respects of success, losing millions. His only good thing was hiring Steve Jobs back.

Jean-Louis Gassee quit Apple, then became a big critic when they refused to buy Be, taking NeXT instead becaue it could run existing apps while Be couldn't.

Jef Raskin went on record in March Mac OS X saying that OSX 10.1 "isn't worth the upgrade, because it's just "another face-lift" with "an awful lot of minuses.""

Jon Fortt, who recently wrote an article called "Mac platform good to a point" that basically said Windows XP is going to kick Mac OS X's butt because it's got really great "built-in instant messaging capabilities." Oooooo

As for Tim Bajarin, well, I've certainly got nothing against him-- he was the one who recently wrote that once the PC price war is over, the two main contenders left in the consumer market are likely to be Sony and Apple.

Maybe more of a slanted table. Who's next? John C. Dvorak?

Re:Bias? (2, Insightful)

Cryptnotic (154382) | about 13 years ago | (#2118603)

Actually, Be was the one that could run old MacOS apps (when running on a PowerPC and using an app called SheepShaver). NeXT didn't have that ability. NeXT didn't even have a PowerPC port when Apple bought them. What NeXT had was Steve Jobs.


Re:Bias? (1)

zephc (225327) | about 13 years ago | (#2132619)

indeed I would have been just as happy if Apple bought Be and used it

I'd LOVE BeOS guts (threading and so on) with the OSX interface on my G4 *droooool*

Not in this universe... =[

Re:Bias? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2119137)

Thanks so much for that Apple-supporter spin. Now we can continue to feel good about our religion, because we always suspected that anyone criticizing the holy Apple was doing so for the wrong reasons.

Re:Bias? (1)

Janus Daniels (313952) | about 13 years ago | (#2120222)

Could people PLEASE check facts before they post or mod?

The roundtable participants don't hate Apple any more than they hate Microsoft... I could have phrased that better. Regardless, anyone who reads it will find an excellent roundtable; not so much whether Apple matters, but more why and how, and growing opportunities (which I expect Apple to mostly ignore, as it most always does).

About the facts:

Amelio, far from killing clones, initiated and championed Apple clones - for the first time in Apple's history - contrary to Steve Jobs stupid, gutless, counterproductive, anticustomer, antideveloper, anticompetitive, long established and soon reinstated whine, shout, hunt, & kill clones policy.

You only need to use BeOS briefly, or just watch a demo, to find many of Gassee's statements justified.

Raskin's criticisms of OSX and its rejected opportunities have received ample support from every independent authority on UI design; for one example, you can drop these in your browser.

Jef Fortt has his work at for anyone who wants to read a fair sample of it.

Why doesn't mr100percent name, or even mention, the other 3 or 4 panelists? Did he or the moderators not even click on the link?
Finally, would Dvorak "hate Apple" just because Apple ignored priceless consulting that he (and nearly every analyst in the industry) repeatedly gave them for free?

Incidentally, at the end of the introduction of participants []
it states, "Note: Despite our best efforts, Apple has declined to participate in this conversation. [Care to guess why?] MacNN publisher Monish Bhatia, while originally scheduled to participate in this event, is unable to do so."

Apple matters. (USB ports anyone?) You can't read the roundtable without thinking that Apple would matter far more if its management would let it. That has rarely changed since 1986.

Re:Bias? (4, Informative)

bbum (28021) | about 13 years ago | (#2131272)

I was going to say much the same thing. To add to it:

Amelio: Not only was he a failure of a CEO, but he went on to write one of the whiniest books around on his "tenure" at Apple and how Steve "stole" his impending success, blahblahblah...

Gassee: The Be machine was pretty sexy, but the OS was doomed from the start! All C++ and you basically had to multithread from the get go. The development docs basically said "Everything is threaded. Threading is hard. Be careful. Have a nice day!". Worse, Be made every mistake that NeXT and others made-- but 10 years after the market no longer tolerated that kind of BS. Proprietary this, closed that, etc... *yawn* Don't get me wrong-- it was really cool to look at and play with, just utterly doomed to simply not matter when the history books are written.

Raskin obviously has a serious bone to pick over the whole 10.x/NeXT thing. He consistently slams 10.x on things that are simply different than the MacOS he helped build. Quite a number of his points are valid, but saying that 10.1 is just a "face lift" with a lot of "minuses" clearly indicates that he is bitter about something. 10.1 cleans up a boatload of little details and is loads and loads faster. Clearly not just a face lift and without any minuses. Besides, Mac OS 9 is an utter joke-- for all intents and purposes, the memory and multitasking model is about as modern as DOS, but with a really pretty face.

Fortt's love affair with XP's built in instant message is a good sign his is smoking whatever Ballmer was smoking before the recent Monkey Boy episode.

As for Bajarin, he is likely the only one that can stand up straight for lack of a mondo Apple related chip on his shoulder. Of course, the fact that he would agree to be on this "panel" in the first place raises a few questions...

Hell, I'm surprised they didn't pull in Spindler, Hancock, and Sculley.

What a total joke... the sad thing is that it will be completely unsurprising when CNET picks up whatever the result is as a sure sign of Apple's impending doom.

Re:Bias? (2)

isaac_akira (88220) | about 13 years ago | (#2131628)

Besides, Mac OS 9 is an utter joke-- for all intents and purposes, the memory and multitasking model is about as modern as DOS, but with a really pretty face.

As someone who uses MacOS 9, Win2K, and Linux on a regular basis, I gotta say that OS 9 still works quite well, even if it doesn't have all the latest tech. The cooperative mulitasking and old skool memory management aren't great, but *as long as programmers code carefully* the apps work fine. Memory protection and premptive multitasking just make it so that apps CAN'T screw anything up, even if there is something wrong with them. This means that I need to reboot OS 9 more often (maybe every other day), but that only takes about 2 minutes, and it's well worth it for me because of the quality of the OS for everything else. OS 9 is not perfect by any means, but hardly "an utter joke".

Now OS X (which DOES have all the latest tech buzzwords) is, unfortunately, a complete joke for now. I managed to use it exlusively for three days last week (and get everything I needed done) but it wasn't pleasent, and I finally rebooted to OS 9 and haven't looked back. What happened Apple? You were always so good with usability, but this is worse than Win2K in that dept (as a long time Mac fan, I would much prefer to use Win2K than OS X in it's current state). Classic apps are unusably slow (on a G4/450 w/512ram), the finder is slow, windows don't remember where I put them the last time they were opened, the finder crashs, preference panels aren't well thought out, everything just seems kludged together. It's nice to be able to open a bash shell and run all my unix stuff, but with OS9 I can just telnet to my linux box and do that there. I'll give 10.1 a look when it comes out, but I'm not holding my breath...

Re:Bias? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2133268)

Why not read the article first? Amelio: Apple is great can change world, lists 5 points for apple to keep winning says they are spot on for 4 of them, could do a bit better on 1 but thinks they'll refix the interface as dust settles from the osx transition

Jean-Louis Gassee: Quotes herman hesse to say apple (new apple, imacs etc...) is so well designed the computer transcends itself and becomes more than a computer (or something, philosophy schmilosophy) Worst thing he says is they should use their 4 bill in the bank to keep afloat while porting to intel as he thinks intel will beat ppc.

Raskin: Ok, well he doesn't like any OS right now and is trying to figger a new paradigm, but he doesn't single apple out for dissing, rather he thinks they should be the ones to lead the way.

Fortt: yeah, he's pretty snippy and in line with your assesment.

Pretty pro-apple discussion if you actually read a bit of it.

Yes and No.. (2)

jcr (53032) | about 13 years ago | (#2133514)

First, Gil didn't kill the clones, Steve did. As for his performance in the job, he inherited a basket case of people who simply wouldn't do what they were told, and it took someone like Jobs to kick the necessary ass (read: fire the dead wood) to get the company turned around. As for the losses, those were mostly a matter of facing facts that Spindler wasn't willing to face. Gil took the hit, but he didn't cause the losses.

Second, Gasseé *isn't* a big critic of Apple. I have yet to see anything from him that sounds like sour grapes to me. Also, Gaseé deserves the credit for the Mac II, which certainly saved the Mac line from extinction.

Raskin, I pretty much agree is no more qualified than John Dvorak to criticise Apple or the Mac, since he was off the project so long ago. See the Canon Cat for Raskin's idea of what he wanted the Mac to be.

Fortt I've never heard of, but he sounds like a lightweight.

Bajarin's claim to fame seems to be nothing more than having been quoted a whole lot by reporters who don't know anyone with first-hand information on anything they're writing about. Did this guy *ever* do anything in the industry, or has he just made a living through cleverly exploiting his keen grasp of the obvious?


Re:Bias? (3, Insightful)

tswinzig (210999) | about 13 years ago | (#2136332)

You can't really have much of a roundtable if most of the people there blatantly hate Apple.

No, but you can have a roundtable of people that are/were Apple fans, and are able to see the issues clearly.

Jean-Louis Gassee quit Apple, then became a big critic when they refused to buy Be.

Exactly where did you get the idea that he's become "a big critic"? If you'd actually read his two posts at the roundtable, you might be surprised that he still sounds like a fan...

It's clear that he dislikes Steve Jobs. It's even clearer that JLG is smart and able to assess any situation with a seemingly unbiased viewpoint.

Here's a guy that was competing with Apple, that probably now regrets not selling to them for $125 million when he could, that must eat humble pie when discussed alongside Steve Jobs. And yet, he's discussing Apple in a nice way at a roundtable specifically about Apple.

Would Steve Jobs be able to do the same thing if the roles were reversed?

Re:Bias? (2)

osgeek (239988) | about 13 years ago | (#2131623)

that probably now regrets not selling to them for $125 million when he could

You bet your sweet ass he does! []

$125 million (when he owned more of the company, I'll bet) or $11 million... hmmm, which would I choose?

Re:Bias? (1)

Decimal Dave (411182) | about 13 years ago | (#2147505)

Maybe more of a slanted table. Who's next? John C. Dvorak?

I really don't think Dvorak would go for that. Especially not after his little run-in with Mr. T [] !

Re:Bias? (3, Informative)

joshy (9772) | about 13 years ago | (#2158534)

I think you are being a bit harsh here.
All of these people have been big Apple supporters and recognize the dream of Apple. They've all just gone about perusing them in different ways.

Gil was the best thing that ever happened to Apple. He brought reality back to the company. He killed some popular projects that were hurting the company, got Apple's debt rolled back and refinanced, and then brought in the people necessary to make the company great again. If it wasn't for Gil's 18 months, there would be no Apple. Out of business. Kay-put! Because of him they now have 4 billion in assets instead of debt.

JLG quit a long time ago and for a myriad of reasons. Perhaps he's a bit grumpy now because Next+Apple fulfilled his dream of a next-gen media OS better than Be did. At least he's always been nice about it. You should read the letter he sent to Gil when he found out Next was chosen over Be. Very classy.

Jef Raskin was quite misquoted in the article you are thinking about. His point was about all modern OSs, not just OSX. He wants to see a radical change in the way we think about computer interfaces. Changes that I agree with and hope to see/build one day. OSX with it's full vector based 2d system actually comes closer to his vision than anything else today.

Can't comment on the other two, but they both seem
to be respectable people.

Many brilliant people can disagree about something like the Apple vision and still have their minds on the future. I think they are more than adequate to discuss Apple.

Re:Bias? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2147363)

You made me laugh, good job. Gil did none of those things, the people who were there before him did, namely, Fred Anderson and Ellen Hancock (the woman whi killed Copland). Once agan, get your facts right.

Re:Bias? (1)

joshy (9772) | about 13 years ago | (#2147659)

i am sure of those facts. i've read accounts
by both gil himself and several third parties.
the very first thing he did was talk to apple's
creditors to get the loans rolled back. if that
had not happened then apple would have defaulted
and quite possible have gone out of business.

Does apple matter? Yes. Will they matter tomorrow? (1)

skyknytnowhere (469520) | about 13 years ago | (#2134844)

I think only if they start making OS X available to intel/amd architecture. I can't imagine a single windows 9x/XP user NOT moving over to a system that is both *nix and Apple. I mean, that combination is already the holy grail of operating systems worldwide. "An easy to use and new user friendly Unix client with Plug and Play adaptability?"

As I struggle to get my new Digital camera to work with my PC (it works fine with my mac, after 30 seconds GARRRH) I realize how much easier my life would be with mac OS X on my AMD system.

The question is: Will apple take a bite out of this market? (oh god, shoot me now for that pun)


Not that simple (2)

TheInternet (35082) | about 13 years ago | (#2117857)

I think only if they start making OS X available to intel/amd architecture.

There's no money in that and there are tons of hurdles to surmount to get there.

I can't imagine a single windows 9x/XP user NOT moving over to a system that is both *nix and Apple.

The vast majority of computer users in the world don't care about whether their OS is Unix based or not. Developers do, though -- and that's key.

Plus, would these people run Mac OS X if there was no Office, Outlook or Explorer for it? Do you think Microsoft would seriously port their software to x86 Mac OS X?

"An easy to use and new user friendly Unix client with Plug and Play adaptability?"

A lot of this value comes from the fact that Mac OS X runs on standardized hardware. You lose a good chunk of this value by moving to a non-standardized hardware platform.

As I struggle to get my new Digital camera to work with my PC (it works fine with my mac, after 30 seconds GARRRH) I realize how much easier my life would be with mac OS X on my AMD system.

It's not software magic that makes Macs easier to configure -- it's the tight integration between hardware and software. John Carmack has talked about this in the past -- how the standardization made it cheaper to port to the Mac.

- Scott

apple matters to some ppl (-1, Troll)

gfody (514448) | about 13 years ago | (#2135202)

as long as retards still need to check email and put text overlays in their home made pornos

Apple & big picture (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2135589)

Apple really sealed their fate [] a long time ago.

Trolls? (1, Informative)

FrostyWheaton (263146) | about 13 years ago | (#2135805)

What do you expect when you post a nebulous article about the future of Apple on Slashdot?

I hate to be hardhearted but the percentage of people here who really care about the future of apple is probably about as high as those who can't wait to see what great new ideas MicroSoft will unveil when it launches XP later this year.

IOW, how do you troll for something that's not there?

Articles like this were made for posting self-congratulatory comments which demonstrate people's skill or lack there-of to make wry and witty remarks about the topic in question
BSo please quit raining on the parade

Personally I don't think there is a great and sunny future for Apple computers. They make great imaging and publishing software from what I understand, but aside from their little niche, they have very little universal appeal. Also, having working in a computer lab with several iMacs I know that they don't network worth snot.

Apple may have their corner of the market and they may do some things very well, but I have little if any interest in whether or not they bite it in the long run

Apple (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2135991)

Apple does count.

1) They have created a user interface that their users have grown to love and protect (in holy wars). The 20% grey philosophy of their ui with allowing their users to throw in accents if they saw it fit was what held their user base for as long as they did. The single function buttons and uncluttered desktop mindset has also allowed Apple to maintain the same interface for YEARS. (are you listening micro$oft?) Simplicity also yielded stability and made the interface adaptive for designers and artists who wanted as little as possible when interfacing with their machines.

2) They have a reputation for building solid hardware. The introduction of third party hardware with Power Computing showed that Apple's OS wasn't all that was essential for their reliable systems nor was it all that they had going for them.

3) They have been able to adapt their technology as time forces them to change it. OS X (that's ten, not "ex", I've been corrected time and time again) is Apple's answer to the market demand for businesses that want machines that they can reliably network and don't want Dells. Before OS X apple+network = no as many frustrated admins know. Damn that NETATalk.

And above all these reasons for apple counting are coming from a biggoted PC user!!!! I've never seen such a strong following from a fringe operating and hardware system, and until recently I saw practically no reason for it. Well, I see you Apple, and yes you will be a contender for some time.

Re:Apple (2, Interesting)

Zico (14255) | about 13 years ago | (#2110609)

I'm not saying at all that Apple doesn't count, but I've really gotta take issue with one of your points.

The introduction of third party hardware showed that Apple was gouging their customers. Those cloners were putting such a hurting on Apple that the company was bleeding money to the point that they finally killed off all the cloners.

Re:Apple (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2130262)

Well, one thing people don't understand is that Apple is a signifigantly different company than it was years ago. Years ago, yes, the gouged their customers. But after the return of Jobs, things have gotten better. Prices have fallen dramatically although people fail to realize that. Machines such as the PowerMac G4 are still overpriced, but have been getting closer and closer to PCs pricewise with every itteration. Products such as the iBook are unquestionably cheaper than PC equivilents. A lot of people here are living in the past, not realizing that Apple has moved on from competing with PCs under the dark days of Amelio and Co. to becoming an innovator of PCs. While they have been slow to adopt some technologies, they pioneer or push for adoption of others (USB, Firewire, etc.) One size does not fit all. Linux is not ready for mainstream. Macs aren't ready for penny pinchers. Windows... well. They all matter. They all push each other further along. You don't have to look too hard to find traces of influence from other platforms in the platform you are using, whichever it may be. So how can any of these companies/platforms not mattter?

Re:Apple (2, Informative)

Zico (14255) | about 13 years ago | (#2109633)

I'm not sure how you say that the iBooks are unquestionably cheaper than the PC equivalents. This isn't something I want to spend all night on, so I just went to the Apple store and picked the cheapest iBook, then went to Sony's site and picked a VAIO that cost the same. They're both listed at $1299.

  • Screen: Mac, 12.1-inch TFT XGA. VAIO, 14.1-inch TFT XGA.
  • CPU: Mac, 500MHz G3 w/ 256K L2 cache. VAIO, 700MHz Mobile Celeron w/ 256K L2 cache.
  • Memory: Mac, 64MB SDRAM. VAIO, 128MB SDRAM.
  • Graphics: Mac, "ATI RAGE Mobility 128 w/ 8MB SDRAM and AGP 2X support." VAIO, "AGP," "Intel® 815 EM Chipset integrated with up to 11 MB video SDRAM (shared)."
  • Hard drive: Mac, 10GB Ultra ATA. VAIO, 15GB Ultra ATA
  • Media: Mac, CD-ROM drive. VAIO, DVD-ROM drive, removable floppy drive.
  • Connections: Both have built-in 56K modem, built-in 10/100BaseT, video output, 2 USB ports, and 1 FireWire port. In addition, the VAIO has serial and parallel ports built in. I couldn't tell what kind of cards the iBook accepts. The VAIO will take 2 Type I or II PC Cards.
  • OS: Mac, MacOS 9. VAIO, Win2K Pro.

Note that I just went to Sony's site and went with the first $1299 notebook I could find (All-In-One FX series). If I wanted to hunt around, I expect that I'd be able to find a better deal than my first pick. Then again, maybe not.

Re:Apple (1)

aitala (111068) | about 13 years ago | (#2134543)

Uh, wrong. The clone vendors were using Apple's spec motherboards, avoiding R&D costs, clock chipping up inferior CPUs, using generic cases, and getting an OS for cheap...

The clones makers had one plus - they were smaller and able to access newer chips/parts faster because they basically did BTO... Jobs learned that lesson and applies it to Apple...

I find it Amazing.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2137218)

I find it amazing that people who are obviously short of facts, yet still claiming to be sure of things are commenting on Apple. The fact of the matter is, the Linux community probobly knows less about apple than your average PC user, as Apple, untill recently anyway, has been of no concern to them. As far as the claim that Apple no longer inovates, look at the success of Fire Wire, even intell is supporting in favor of USB 2.0. It has also become the defacto standard for digital video, which is a market that Apple is an early leader in. There are even ways to network over Fire Wire, faster than 100 base, and cheaper than gigabit. I'm the first to admit, not all of Apples inovations are great, in my Opinion the new ADC connection is a step back, as it limits monitor choices. Oh, and lets not forget that Apple was the first computer maker to ship the Ge-Force3 card. So much for the excuse that Apple has bad support for games. And then there's Quicktime, I'll admit it can't support multi-layer mpegs, and handles AVI files badly, but it still kicks the snot out of anything else available. I could keep going, but I need sleep. "Do you want to sell suger water to kids all your life, or do you want to have a chance to change the world?"

Re:I find it Amazing.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2135848)

Firewire? It would have been a success years ago if Apple hadn't demanded a royalty of ONE DOLLAR per each chip manufactured which implements the firewire protocol. Chip makers scoffed and told Apple to fuck off. That is a fact. Let's see some other examples of Apple innovation and greed:
  • trash can icon -- yeah right.
  • kill third party hardware and motherboard vendors -- oh yeah.
  • tell BeOS to fuck off -- yeah man.
  • stifle the adaption of firewire -- hell yeah.
  • closed hardware proprietary mentality -- yeah yeah yeah.
Apple is full of baloney.

Look at who they are asking (0)

mcspock (252093) | about 13 years ago | (#2138162)

All the people they are asking are former apple employees - none are current, and none are from other companies. Seems like a poorly weighted group.

Does Apple still matter? (5, Interesting)

DwarfGoanna (447841) | about 13 years ago | (#2139263)

Aside from playing R&D lab for the rest of the industry, and the fact that Apple stories here (a mainly Linux crowd) generate the interest that they do.......

I think one of the panel members summed it up best by saying something along the lines of... "If they didn't, why would we be talking about them?"


Re:Does Apple still matter? (0)

PRESIDENT BUSHCLIT (515272) | about 13 years ago | (#2119626)

Yeah but look at how much people talk about Linux :/

Re:Does Apple still matter? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2135574)

OK, Xerox PARC was the most prominent R&D lab for the industry, Apple ripped everything off first (like they often do, NEVER invent), and it's because of disinformation troll apple zealots like yourself that these discussions generate so much interest. MS topics have you beaten hands down - kinda like in real life!

That's the first time I've heard anyone try and inflate their OS's importance based on how many comments it generates by users of an even smaller market share OS. Oh well, it takes all kinds.

Re:Does Apple still matter? (2, Informative)

Hawks (102993) | about 13 years ago | (#2158533)

OK, Xerox PARC was the most prominent R&D lab for the industry, Apple ripped everything off first (like they often do, NEVER invent),...!

Actually....Apple bought the rights to every peice of IP Xerox came up with and Apple used in MacOS. Xerox didnt think it was going anywhere and gave it to apple for a bunch of stock. That stock then went way up, so Xerox made a mint. I like Apple, sure, and I know people who dont, but if you're going to slam something, try to get your information right or someone might think you're a disinformation troll. Now you just look like a lemming. Moving right along....

Does apple matter? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2139339)

A computer company only matters if it has a long term effect on computer history.

Apple has done 2 things recently. They made the hardware attractive. They switched to a unix kernel.

Graphically, OS X is dissapointing. It's ok but not great looking. It's slow and has responsiveness bugs. There isn't anything there that hasn't been done before in other operating systems.

The question of course is if Apple is going to do any note worthy in the future. I doubt they are going to take on any new projects as ambitious as the switch to a unix kernel in the near future...

Re:Does apple matter? (1)

TheInternet (35082) | about 13 years ago | (#2131257)

Graphically, OS X is dissapointing. It's ok but not great looking.

Ummmm... what?

It's slow and has responsiveness bugs.

It's 1.0.

There isn't anything there that hasn't been done before in other operating systems.

I don't see how one could say that after reading SystemOverview [] (2.6MB PDF file).

- Scott

Does Apple matter? (4, Insightful)

m51 (255152) | about 13 years ago | (#2139489)

Well, it depends on what you mean when you say "Does Apple matter?" If you mean "Does it matter in the course of computer history?", the answer is yes; it's place in history is undeniable. "Does it matter to it's users?" Again, the answer is yes; ask any Mac addict. As for the question "Does any of that matter?", the answer depends on how much money Apple is making as a company. ;) That's life for you.

OK.. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2140310)

lets get a bunch of former Apple employees and gather them together, and see if they really DONT have any personal feelings against their former employer... hmmm

ooooh, big media wants banner clicks (3, Insightful)

mr_burns (13129) | about 13 years ago | (#2141913)

Amelio wanted to host MacOS on top of the NT kernel. Freakin' idoit.

All I have to say is; next time you set up a Windows or Linux box, and you're a few days into it, know that you could have done this all in 15 minutes on a mac.

I love the fact that grep, openssh, perl and apache are standard with the current macos, and I don't have to spend any time cursing xfree getting it to work for me. Apple is or at least will be the known universe's largest distributor of UNIX.

Penguin and VA will never get in the hands of a 5 year old kid. But starting in september, some of those kids will go to school and notice, emacs, VI, gcc, apache and gnu/bsd in their classroom.

If you want to raise a nation of hacker kids; kids who find their own uses for technology, then you realize that Apple matters.

And even if you don't buy into that, you might dig the peace of mind gained by not being forced to give your personal info to passport.

Re:ooooh, big media wants banner clicks (2)

jcr (53032) | about 13 years ago | (#2135382)

>Amelio wanted to host MacOS on top of the NT kernel. Freakin' idoit.

No, he *considered* NT, along with Solaris, Linux, BSD, and the other alternatives, and he and his VP of software development made the right choice. Do you have a problem with that?


Of course it does... (1)

gamgee5273 (410326) | about 13 years ago | (#2143885)

I find the panel a rather sad group to be commenting on Apple's future - each of the former Apple employees there have done their fair share at destroying the company. How they could truly comment on Apple's future is beyond me.

Truly, I think that Apple will continue to push the industry forward. Indeed, Apple may eventually push past the magical 10% marketshare which will help ensure their survival.

But, I think Apple has to see where the wind blows in the next year (they'll be busy with OS X anyways). With the push in the internet appliance space (Sony's e Villa, Palm's buyout of Be, PeoplePC's new IA program) lately, Apple may see their "digital hub" idea begin to really pay off. Whether Apple buys Palm after Palm has created something useful out of Be, or whether Darwin (or OS X) becomes Apple's way of entering embedded systems, I think the next year will point the way that Apple should go.

And, as we've seen in the past, where Apple goes, the industy goes...

of course Apple matters (1)

terpia (28218) | about 13 years ago | (#2147498)

Though I do not like the OS, or the flowery designs, a mac still sits on my home network. Why? Good question, Im not entirely sure. It serves no production purpose, i dont play games on it, i have yet to load linux ppc on it. Its kinda cool though, if for no other reason than its Just Different(tm). As far as business is concerned, I could care less how apple does, just as long as they continue to hang around, being a thorn in my side when ive got an unhappy mac user on the phone. Now Next(tm), THAT mattered. Pretty cool stuff, there used to be one at my old job, living life as a sound editing box. Time to stop rambling.

Apple bought Next (1)

lythari (118242) | about 13 years ago | (#2138163)

If I recall correctly, Apple bought Next Computers a few years back. Next was Jobs project so the takeover probably had something to do with his return.

From browsing about the net, it seems that a lot of the Next stuff found its way into OSX, so in a sense, Next is still with us.

Re:Apple bought Next (2)

nathanm (12287) | about 13 years ago | (#2133867)

It's really more like NeXT took over Apple though. The CEO, top hardware person, & top software person are all former NeXT people. OS X is a direct descendant of NeXTStep.

Re:Apple bought Next (2)

osgeek (239988) | about 13 years ago | (#2135376)

Yes, you're exactly right. I can tell you (having worked there), the NeXT guys completely received the red carpet treatment and more than their fair share of company resources... especially when you consider how fucking long it took them to ship OSX. They should have been able to get their shit together long before, if they had just planned things out better and not changed directions every five minutes.

Of course they do (2, Funny)

odenshaw (471011) | about 13 years ago | (#2147517)

If Apple wasn't around who would the other companies copy?

Talk About Middle-Management! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2154646)

former head of head of product development

Wow, head of the head of product management? He was way up there!

Summary (2, Insightful)

oncee (216065) | about 13 years ago | (#2154753)

Is there a summary somewhere? I'd really like to get to the heart of what they said without reading all the seperate messages.

Jews (-1)

Ralph JewHater Nader (450769) | about 13 years ago | (#2154775)

A friendly anti-semitic reminder for all the people on Slashdot: kill a jew every day, help humanity weed out the undesirables.

Re:Jews (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2114253)

:;As Raplh JewHater Nader bleats on, a dark, cold figure appears from the murk of the Internet... a figure shroudled in Black... mist swirls about his feet. He reaches out, slowly, carefully so as not to alert Nader to his presence... he steps forward....

A scream explodes outward, a scream to freeze the blood, to still the heart, to make bowels loosen and make the strong even piss their pants. A scream like one ripped from hell before the gates shut, like soul being torn loose and cast into the abyss.... a scream that blows out Nader's eardrums...


Nader screeches as his undies are reefed up violently and then tied around his neck! The smell begins to make him choke as his brain straves for oxygen, his own undies strangling him!::

* Bows *

Death by a Force Wedgy. No more than Nader deserved.

Re:Jews (-1)

Ralph JewHater Nader (450769) | about 13 years ago | (#2147518)

I am sure that most people here would not be swayed by such base zionist propaganda. Yet another reason to kill all the jews and their allies.

Re:Jews (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2147661)

I was quite swayed, you shiny headed goose stepping teutonophilic bastard.

Re:Jews (-1)

Ralph JewHater Nader (450769) | about 13 years ago | (#2114456)

You're a jew then. Allow me to add you to my gassing list.

"Does Apple Matter?" (-1, Troll)

FrostyWheaton (263146) | about 13 years ago | (#2154784)

No not really. He was never popular in school, but his mother still loves him, or at least that's what she says when she tucks him in at night.

A troll? Don't think so (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2154594)

Who is he(she?) trolling for? We all know everyone at Slashdot browses with the nightly build of Mozilla, and has never even touched anything that is not OSS right? Let the boys play!

P.S. See you in MetaMod

Yes, what does apple mean? (1, Funny)

Monkeyman334 (205694) | about 13 years ago | (#2154907)

Main Entry: apple
Pronunciation: 'a-p&l
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English appel, from Old English æppel; akin to Old High German apful apple, Old Irish ubull, Old Church Slavonic abluko
Date: before 12th century
1 : the fleshy usually rounded and red, yellow, or green edible pome fruit of a tree (genus Malus) of the rose family; also : an apple tree
2 : a fruit or other vegetable production suggestive of an apple -- compare OAK APPLE
- apple of one's eye : one that is highly cherished <his daughter is the apple of his eye>

Welp, doesn't take a genius to figure out this one!

Does Apple Matter? (3, Insightful)

BigBlockMopar (191202) | about 13 years ago | (#2155146)

Our topic is 'Does Apple Matter?'

Of course it does! Without them to take the lead on everything, we'd still be stuffing 5.25" diskettes onto beige machines without GUIs.

They're the computer industry's metronome. No one wants to admit it, but every other company follows.

I sometimes suspect that 50% of their machines get sold to cults. The other 50% of their machines, of course, are sold to - and reverse engineered by - every other PC manufacturer and software developer.

Now that OS X is a *NIX derivative, an Apple is suddenly as viable as Linux on a PC. Moreso, in fact, since the hardware architecture is so much better and they get so much more bang for a MHz than does an x86.

Not to mention, the cases are so cool.

fp?! (-1, Offtopic)

taestee (463842) | about 13 years ago | (#2154925)


Re:fp?! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2133716)

You? Seem! Unsure?! (-1, Troll)

thecarson (514020) | about 13 years ago | (#2155012)

Re: (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2120101)


Can somebody tell me (1, Interesting)

PRESIDENT BUSHCLIT (515272) | about 13 years ago | (#2142257)

what this [] means? Scroll to "And now for some not so nice things".

GEM (1, Offtopic)

RGRistroph (86936) | about 13 years ago | (#2158708)

I was digging through years of accumulated floppies, sorting out which ones looked cool enough to see if they could still be read and which ones would go in the blank floppy bucket, and I found a two-diskette installation of GEM.

GEM is the windowing software mentioned in the star trek project link.

Just in case my floppies don't work, does anyone know if you can still find GEM on the web anywhere ?

Jef Raskin (5, Insightful)

MasterVidBoi (267096) | about 13 years ago | (#2158716)

I find Raskins comments on Apple's lack of innovation interesting.

He says that apple doesn't innovate at all anymore. While that is true from one point of view, it's quite false from another.

So Apple didn't invent USB. Who cares? Without Apple, it would have never caught on. Even the GUI was pioneered at Xerox PARC. Just because you didn't come up with an origonal idea doesn't mean you didn't play an extremely important role. If the technology is never adopted, it's greatness doesn't mean anything.

Apple has proven itself pretty damn good at taking someone else's technology, and making it popular, and you can't discount the importance of that.

Raskin talks about how Apple also isn't innovating with GUIs anymore. He says that X is just another 'WinMac GUI,' and he's right. He says that Apple needs to adopt a totally different strategy and use the mac as a cash cow while this new innovation catches on.

He says "What I would build wouldn't be a traditional OS, it wouldn't have a traditional GUI, but it would run on Macs, it would run on Wintel boxes, and we'd license it so as to make money from our competitors."

Of course, no mention what it would be. I don't think he really has a clue what this next 'super innovation' (like the mac was in '84) should be, but he blames Apple for not coming up with it yet.

Of course, I've never read The Humane Interface, so maybe this little issue is explained there...

Re:Jef Raskin (1)

stew77 (412272) | about 13 years ago | (#2116280)

Obviously, you didn't read his book. Jef explains his idea of a revoutionary UI looks like, and it makes sense to me.

Re:Jef Raskin (0)

PRESIDENT BUSHCLIT (515272) | about 13 years ago | (#2135381)

He says "What I would build wouldn't be a traditional OS, it wouldn't have a traditional GUI, but it would run on Macs, it would run on Wintel boxes, and we'd license it so as to make money from our competitors."

What, Java?

Re:Jef Raskin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2147660)

It seems Fire Wire doesn't count for anything with you.

of course! (0, Troll)

i244 (97221) | about 13 years ago | (#2158777)

if it wasnt for an apple then newton would have never written the laws of gravity. =)

no wait that's not....... oops.

computers? uhh apple?

sure they were the first with a nice graphics. without pretty graphics there wouldnt be PORN. THANK YOU APPLE!


Grenade throwing 0.1
1) hold pin, pull grenade
2) throw pin.... no waitamin*BOOM*


Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2112799)

I WILL KiCK YUOR [] ASS!!!1!!!1!111!

If I ever meet you (0)

PRESIDENT BUSHCLIT (515272) | about 13 years ago | (#2133513)

I'm gonna smack you upside the head.

Best hardware (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2159455)

Apple matters to me now because they make the best hardware. My titanium PowerBook G4 can run Linux, Windows, MacOS 9 and MacOS X. If you're on a budget, check out the new iBook that retails for $1299. Apple will matter more in the future if they can come up with better software, perhaps a next generation OS that will revolutionize computing.

Yes, Apple does matter.... (0)

Atrax (249401) | about 13 years ago | (#2159479)

.. because if it crashed tomorrow, the designers in my studio would go into mourning, become all morose, emotionally knife-edged and start wearing black all the time.

Er... actually... maybe it'd make no difference at all.

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