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Debian Technical Committee Votes For Systemd Over Upstart

timothy posted about 8 months ago | from the process-as-process dept.

Debian 379

sfcrazy writes "Bdale Garbee,chairman of the Debian Technical Committee, called for a ballot from the TC to chose the default init system. The votes are in systemd is the clear winner here. Bdale himself voted for systemd."

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At least I'm not a Debian user. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203371)

And now there's no reason to start!

Nature takes care of mistakes like these. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203747)

Nature has gotten pretty good at taking care of blatant mistakes. This is especially true in the software world.

Look at XFree86. They fucked up big-time, and now the project is basically dead. Almost everybody has abandoned it, never to return.

Look at GNOME 3. They fucked up big-time, and now the project is basically dead. Almost everybody has abandoned it, never to return.

Look at Windows 8. They fucked up big-time, and now Windows is sliding further into irrelevancy. People and companies are moving to OS X, Android, iOS and Linux, never to return to Windows.

Look at Firefox 4+. They fucked up big-time, and now the project is dying. Users are fleeing it in droves, never to return.

Look at Slashdot Beta. They fucked up big-time, and now the community is dying. People are leaving, or will be leaving, permanently, never to return.

Maybe Debian is next. They've made a bad decision, and it's likely that their importance will diminish, much like has happened to Fedora and other Linux distros that have made really stupid choices. People will move to Ubuntu, or even to the BSDs, never to return to Debian.

A lot of "collateral damage" mis-moddings. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204047)

I know things have been somewhat hectic around here these past few days, what with the negative response from the community to the beta, and the extensive down-modding we've seen as a result of the outrage. Mis-moderations do happen now and then, of course, but it seems to be particularly bad lately. Perfectly good comments, making perfectly valid and correct points, and corresponding perfectly to the topic of discussion, are modded down without any obvious reason why.

The GP is right. In this case, it just so happens that the Slashdot beta website is in fact a very good example of what can happen to a software project that makes bad decisions that prove to be harmful to the users. We can even witness the inherent truth to this statement within the comments of this very thread of discussion! The GP's comment deserves a +5, Insightful mod, not -1. If it applies to Slashdot and the other projects mentioned, it applies to Debian, as well.

I really hope that these obvious mis-moderations come to an end soon enough. The level of censorship here is edging toward that we see at Reddit or Hacker News. That kind of overt censorship is one of the main reasons why so many people come to Slashdot, rather than those sites. The discussion here is much more robust and open to original thought, whereas such things are shunned and punished at Reddit and Hacker News. If the awful beta website doesn't drive people away, then the modding-down of perfectly good comments likely will.

Incorrect summary. (3, Informative)

Heraklit (29346) | about 8 months ago | (#46203373)

Please. Get your facts straight.

the default init system for Linux architectures in jessie

Re:Incorrect summary. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203455)

Please. Get your facts straight.

the default init system for GNU/Linux architectures in jessie

FTFY.

Re:Incorrect summary. (1)

beelsebob (529313) | about 8 months ago | (#46203563)

systemd was not a GNU project, so to suggest this is a GNU/linux distro is as fallacious as claiming that it's Poettering/Sievers/Linux distro.

What it is, is Linux. This particular project has some parts written by the GNU, and some parts written by Poettering/Sievers, and some other parts written by some other people. Stop trying to imply that the GNU is the be all and end all of user land software on Linux.

Re:Incorrect summary. (1)

dos1 (2950945) | about 8 months ago | (#46203793)

Aside of the comment you're answering to being wrong, the full Debian OS on one of supported Linux architectures is officially called "Debian GNU/Linux" by Debian project itself.

Re:Incorrect summary. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204081)

> one of supported Linux architectures is officially called "Debian GNU/Linux" by Debian project itself.

Did you even read that nonsense? Debian project supports Debian? That's superfluous labeling. GNU/Linux is not an architecture. They can call a horse a giraffe, that's not really relevant.

Re:Incorrect summary. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203797)

Wrong, this is not "linux". This is "Debian".

Re:Incorrect summary. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204103)

It's Debian's Linux architecture. As opposed to Debian's kFreeBSD architecture.

Re:Incorrect summary. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204267)

Or Debian's Hurd Architecture.

Re:Incorrect summary. (1)

reub2000 (705806) | about 8 months ago | (#46203871)

I need a term that differentiates things like android or my roku box from systems running glibc and X11 or wayland. I think GNU/Linux works for that.

Re:Incorrect summary. (5, Informative)

dos1 (2950945) | about 8 months ago | (#46203749)

Linux architectures, not GNU/Linux. In this context it's not about the whole operating system, it's about the kernel itself. Aside of Linux architectures there are also kFreeBSD architectures in Debian - with "k" added to make it clear that it's about FreeBSD kernel, not OS.

Don't try to fix other people when you don't know what them (and in turn you as well) are talking about.

Re:Incorrect summary. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203817)

I did not know systemd was used only for the kernel and not the whole operating system.
You learn something new every day! \o/

Re:Incorrect summary. (2)

Bite The Pillow (3087109) | about 8 months ago | (#46203665)

How is that misleading? The next release of debian is codenamed jessie, apparently.

Re:Incorrect summary. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203851)

How is that misleading? The next release of debian is codenamed jessie, apparently.

Nether Debian GNU/Hurd or Debian GNU/kFreeBSD are receiving systemd. Just Debian GNU/Linux.

Beta (0, Offtopic)

loufoque (1400831) | about 8 months ago | (#46203389)

That's because upstart was BETA software from Canonical.

Re:Beta (2, Insightful)

arth1 (260657) | about 8 months ago | (#46203419)

But no worse than systemd, which is near universally despised by system administrators.

Does slashdot have Leonart Poettering on the design team, by any chance? It would sure explain a lot.

Re:Beta (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203577)

FWIW, having worked with all but OpenRC - I very much like the approach of systemd's small interpret-able/generable files.

I get the flexiblity of external support scripts when I really need them, but 9/10, defining the dependencies well avoids the need for any scripting at all.

At scale of more than a few dozen machines (and especially when they're coming and going), this is amazingly powerful - one set of tools can write them, another can read them / interact with them via DBUS, all while managing most every aspect of the underlying process in a single well documented way (the manpages are /awesome/)

Irrational Hate (5, Interesting)

Tenebrousedge (1226584) | about 8 months ago | (#46203723)

No, it is loathed by a small, vocal, percentage of system administrators, who have very little in the way of technical arguments at their disposal. This vote may be considered evidence in that respect.

There is very little to recommend init scripts. I dismiss arguments that they are any easier for any average mortal to deal with than any other piece of code, and there is very little justification for wasting CPU time on a non-interactive process. Additionally, this will merely be a default -- those who want slow boots, or think cgroups are evil, can go ahead and install systemv-init and purge systemd. Or, since systemd, d-bus, pulseaudio, and wayland are evidently the future of Linux, the malcontents can install BSD -- it comes with a free chip for your other shoulder.

Re:Irrational Hate (2)

ThePhilips (752041) | about 8 months ago | (#46203941)

No, it is loathed by a small, vocal, percentage of system administrators, who have very little in the way of technical arguments at their disposal.

I hear that argument a lot. The problem with it that systemd's approach likewise has "very little in the way of technical arguments". To the most questions you get blank non-responses which amount to "it is like it is".

There is very little to recommend init scripts. I dismiss arguments that they are any easier for any average mortal to deal with than any other piece of code, [...]

systemd moves to C what was historically done by shell scripts. Admins and testers - people who deal with the init system more than anybody else - can't C but can shell. What's more, on a typical systemd system, literally all the gritty bits of initialization are hidden in the binaries. If you need to modify some aspect of their behavior - tough luck. Pottering is one of the proponents of the 100% configuration-less system: majority of the binaries do not even have any command line options to customize their behavior.

If PulseAudio example taught us anything, systemd has a chance at being something - only after Pottering is done with it and leaves the project.

P.S. Do not take me as a upstart proponent. I have installed both Fedora and Ubuntu in VM and have to say that like none of them. Or rather. I do not like the Fedora. (But heck, GNOME 3 desktop is hard to like and it sets the mood from the beginning. Dysfunctional Alt-Tab alone is worth dismissing the whole distro.) Ubuntu in that respect is much more palatable. But then, upstart plays there only a small, albeit important, role of starting up basic system services - rest, including service management, is done by the usual sysvinit scripts. Fun fact: Fedora boots about twice slower than the Ubuntu, despite systemd's promise of faster boot times vs. Ubuntu's reliance on the slower sysvinit scripts. In the end, I'd still take sysvinit.

easy to hate what hasn't been tried. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203771)

Yyyeah, no, I heard a lot of hate for it, but Oh god, upstart is a disaster. It's a dependency-based system that doesn't do anything with its dependencies! Systemd's a little bit terrifying, but it actually does the job it sets out to do, while every time I sit down with upstart I wish I was just using basic sysV+LSB init.

Re:Beta (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203883)

But no worse than systemd, which is near universally despised by system administrators

Opinion among sysadmins does seem to run about 10:1 in favor of upstart over systemd. The problem is that systemd is too opaque, much like Windows "you don't get to see" philosophy. It's contrary to the way Unix based OSs have always been.

The people who are so desperate for a Windows-like OS should just... use Windows! Windows more or less works fine if that's your cup of tea.

Re: Beta (1)

WebCowboy (196209) | about 8 months ago | (#46204389)

Interesting...I prefer systemd over upstart and I know many others that do as well. So I know it is BS to day systemd is almost universally despised. At worst it is seen as the least of all evils.

It anything the debate is over retaining init.d scripts and systemd as upstart is somewhat of a single vendor stepchild. The main legitimate concern with systemd is its Linux-only implementation complicating the porting of packages to BSD and HURD based systems. The other might be a matter of taste but still worthy of debate--that systemd does not honour the 'Unix way' sufficiently.

Re: Beta (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203473)

beta sucks hedgehog balls (and so does Timmmaay)

Re:Beta (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about 8 months ago | (#46203579)

you mean canonical has something else than alpha builds of some sw??

Right on time (-1, Troll)

TheloniousToady (3343045) | about 8 months ago | (#46203393)

It looks like this article was posted exactly one hour after the previous one, which was posted exactly one hour after the one before. I guess the (automatically scheduled) beatings will continue until morale improves.

Re:Right on time (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203405)

timothy is a shell script

Re:Right on time (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203601)

oh, LOL, that's true!

Re:Right on time (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203487)

It looks like this article was posted exactly one hour after the previous one, which was posted exactly one hour after the one before. I guess the (automatically scheduled) beatings will continue until morale improves.

Yes, I think he's also been posting articles for 48hrs non stop. Imagine if he's not a script, but someone incessantly desperately trying to bury the present, desperate, incessant. poor guy no matter how much he posts its not going to magically go away.

I can't believe Slashdot haven't done something sensible about all this. Make another statement, Say they'll hold off and make links with us to radically improve the situation, Put up a meaningful poll to find out what people here really think about the Beta proposal, and act on it. We are all still here! Respond to the clamour, don't hide away. They say they want to listen? So why stifle our voices with floods of articles?

A poll about phones really isn't what's needed right now!

Re:Right on time (0, Troll)

arth1 (260657) | about 8 months ago | (#46203669)

Yes, I think he's also been posting articles for 48hrs non stop. Imagine if he's not a script, but someone incessantly desperately trying to bury the present, desperate, incessant. poor guy no matter how much he posts its not going to magically go away.

I can't believe Slashdot haven't done something sensible about all this. Make another statement, Say they'll hold off and make links with us to radically improve the situation, Put up a meaningful poll to find out what people here really think about the Beta proposal, and act on it. We are all still here! Respond to the clamour, don't hide away. They say they want to listen? So why stifle our voices with floods of articles?

Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by CYA.

They obviously don't believe for a second that they can outdo us at our own game, drowning the protests in articles. Not only would that be a severely pitched battle, but many of the opponents are those who wrote the book on one-to-many communication - they understand the battlefield and weapons a heck of a lot better than the Slashdot employees. They surely know this, and this is just token resistance so they can say that they tried hard to get the site back to regular discussion, so they are not to blame. Save their jobs.

Meanwhile, the protests obviously continue, and the strike (we posters are workers, not customers - the ad agencies are the customers) starts tomorrow.
See you all after next weekend.

Re:Right on time (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203671)

Keep modding down and don't respond. It's probably for the best. Since it will drive us all away.

Soooo.... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203399)

Having been a well behaved, not overly vocal member of the slashdot community for many years (10? more?), today, I found myself banned by ip. and my Karma (which has always been neutral) reduced to "terrible".

I had posted 10 times over the last 48 hrs, in support of the slashdot boycott. Most sensible debate, some houmour.

You know once the powers that be need to silence those who gently disapprove, that it's all gone terribly wrong, and those pushing for change that damages everyone are too weak to even make a sensible argument.

Oh Dear.

Re:Soooo.... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203437)

You are not alone. It's been the same here for me. I had the karma maxed and now it's terrible.
 
Fuck you, Dice motherfuckers. I'll join the boycott in a few hours.

FUCK BETA

Re:Soooo.... (-1, Flamebait)

fast turtle (1118037) | about 8 months ago | (#46204441)

why in hell don't you fucktards simply boycott now as we've certainly gotten tired of the god damn "boycot beta" beefs. Everyone of them has jacked threads making it impossible to hold a god damn discussion. Maybe I need a god damn shot gun in the crowded room for all you "Fuck Beta" bitches. Better yet, beam you out into vacumn and see how long it takes you to expire.

Gee (5, Insightful)

Ultra64 (318705) | about 8 months ago | (#46203493)

Who would have thought there would be consequences to spamming every article with whining and bitching?

Re:Gee (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203559)

You are a fucktard. You don't see the evil of what happened to a fellow user only because it's not you who's being abused by people who really care a shit about you. Enjoy this next week, moron, and probably the inevitable future. One day you will deeply regret what you did, or didn't do now.

Re:Gee (1)

madprof (4723) | about 8 months ago | (#46203611)

It's just a news site. There are loads of others. Calm down.

Re:Gee (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203845)

There is no winning this fight. There is no financial incentive for DICE to do anything with Slashdot. There's a reason the site keeps being sold. The redesign was their hope to be able to salvage the site financially. If you get what you want, you're still fucked: the place will probably be shut down anyway. So what exactly are you doing besides spreading hate and stupidity?

Not defending the beta, mind you, it's just retarded to pick up the torches and pitchforks instead of trying to work with these people. You have no leverage. I am sure that every dime spent on the site is now, to the owners, a waste. We know that you're not going to foot the bill, either, nor help to program any potential replacement. When they decide to scrap the beta and shut the site down, will you congratulate yourself on the moral victory, having lost the war?

Re:Soooo.... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203495)

If you only had neutral karma after 10 years, we're probably not going to miss out on many quality post. Also, you posted offtopic 10 times in 48 hours, what did you expect?

RE:Soooo (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203569)

Oh, you'll still think FUCK BETA is off topic? How quaint.

you like the Timothy auto feed too, huh?

Enjoy your lovely new brilliantly designed and targeted tech news website when it arrives!

(and they they made them turn against each other...those good ol propaganda tactics still work a treat, wake up someone's selling you!)

Thank You Slashdot (2, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 8 months ago | (#46203545)

Justice is served. Keep up the bans and let's get rid of the deadwood.

I fully support the rights of a bar to throw out the belligerently drunk - that's not censorship, it's called caring for your customers. None of us are here to read moronic posts about website style changes. We are here to read insightful commentary on technical stories and if you can't handle that, you do not and should not belong.

Re:Thank You Slashdot (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203585)

When you return one day to the bar you helped build for ten years and find it full of 12 year olds discussing about puppys and WWE, and telling you that you are not welcomed there, think again about what you said today. I don't think you really believe a word of what you said, and if you do: I feel sorry for you. For real.

Re:Thank You Slashdot (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203637)

I fully support the rights of a bar to throw out the belligerently drunk

The problem is the drunk one is the barkeep. The patrons told him to stop before he wrecks to whole place, but there is no stopping him. Every day he gets drunk and wreaks half the bar. Soon he'll be drinking alone. And it all started with that damn game of Dice.

Re:Thank You Slashdot (1, Interesting)

seyyah (986027) | about 8 months ago | (#46203847)

The problem is the drunk one is the barkeep. The patrons told him to stop before he wrecks to whole place, but there is no stopping him. Every day he gets drunk and wreaks half the bar. Soon he'll be drinking alone. And it all started with that damn game of Dice.

So leave. If the new redesign is as bad as promised, I'll leave when the time comes. No need to ruin Slashdot ahead of schedule.

Re:Thank You Slashdot (1)

wonkey_monkey (2592601) | about 8 months ago | (#46204437)

The patrons told him to stop before he changed the wallpaper and took away the pool table, but there is no stopping him.

FTFY.

Re:Thank You Slashdot (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203667)

We are not customers. The advertisers are their customers, and they are screwing their advertisers over by poisoning the community and reducing its value. "Slashdot abandoned... everything of value was lost."

I tell you, the behavior of Dice/Slashdot over the course of this fiasco has made me want to not just boycott the site, but leave forever and never come back. After vomiting on BETA.

“Slashdot only allows anonymous users to post 10 times per day (more or less, depending on moderation). A user from your IP has already shared his or her thoughts with us that many times. Take a breather, and come back and see us in 24 hours or so. If you think this is unfair, please email posting@slashdot.org...”

Oh, lookee here. Censorship AND gag orders.

Fuck Dice. Fuck them up their stupid asses!

Re: Soooo.... (0, Offtopic)

binarylarry (1338699) | about 8 months ago | (#46203565)

So they banned you for spamming?

I'm so sad that I'm writing the world's smallest exotic tragedy finfic and sending it to your mta, over and over again.

Re:Soooo.... (0)

Bite The Pillow (3087109) | about 8 months ago | (#46203623)

3 mod point left. Do I mod you down or suggest it's not a conspiracy? 12 points all to marking people off topic for exceeding the boundaries of common sense. Best not to waste them on whinging I suppose.

READ THIS (it works) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203695)

To get you past redirects to beta, easily http://games.slashdot.org/comm... [slashdot.org]

A non-conspiratorial response (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203821)

I've been using all my banked karma to vote down the cut & paste protest messages about beta.

I've been marking each and every one of them as "Off-topic" (well until my karma ran out). I assume that after a certain threshold of negative posts there are built-in repercussions under the system.

I know sober reflection isn't popular when discussing the site redesign but there you go.

Re (0)

binarylarry (1338699) | about 8 months ago | (#46204403)

Fuck you.

Re:Soooo.... (3, Interesting)

inasity_rules (1110095) | about 8 months ago | (#46203903)

Well, I haven't been banned, but my regularly scheduled mod points have not appeared. All I did was mod up some of the more polite and reasoned anti-beta posts... The "Fuck beta" posts are anatomically improbable, and likely less than helpful, but I ignored them and left them where they were.

I am a late joiner (7 digits), but was an AC for a long time before I registered. I await the outcome of this situation. As far as I can tell, beta isn't being forced on us yet, and if it is, well, perhaps it is time I left /. behind anyway. It has been fun. :)

Re:Soooo.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204447)

But that raises a question that is actually related to the story: where else are the smart people?

Systemd is a good example. It is crap, popular because of good PR and peer pressure. Slashdot is the only website I know of where the commenters have seen through it. Hacker News is broadly pro-systemd, r/linux the same and even LWN comments seem to favor systemd although they're not modded.

There's a difference in intelligence between website communities and that's what makes Slashdot so special.

Glad this is over (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203417)

It's a shame to see a bunch of Canonical shills on the Debian Technical Committee though. This should have been strictly between OpenRC and systemd, but the Canonical shills were trying to push Upstart even though it's a buggy piece of shit that is inferior to systemd in every way.

Re:Glad this is over (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203707)

So OpenRC loses its possibility to shine and debian will enjoy the problems of systemd being with lots of small and big bugs, some even in the general design (and shared with upstart).

We'll see if the debian people will fix it before the users will start to get concerned.

Re:Glad this is over (5, Funny)

RDW (41497) | about 8 months ago | (#46203891)

...but the Canonical shills were trying to push Upstart even though it's a buggy piece of shit that is inferior to systemd in every way.

So wait, you're saying that narrow corporate interests were trying to push their own inferior solution in place of a technically superior system strongly preferred by the userbase? There seems to be something vaguely familiar about this scenario, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

More on systemd... (4, Informative)

MAXOMENOS (9802) | about 8 months ago | (#46203443)

...here [freedesktop.org] .

More information on the topic (5, Interesting)

cfreeze (146454) | about 8 months ago | (#46203453)

I didn't really know much about systemd being a ubuntu user, but found this giving more background on the story: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate... [debian.org] . The wiki does a good job detailing the technologies. Given the information, the choice of systemd is interesting.

Upstart is The Slashdot Beta of th init systems? (1)

williamyf (227051) | about 8 months ago | (#46203553)

Or, the CLAs are the Slashdot Beta of OSS Communities?

I do not know, just keeping the flame alive... ;-)

Re:More information on the topic (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203645)

that page sucked, all I got out of it was that Steve Langasek loves upstart and is desperate to find faults with systemd, to the point of ignoring well known problems with upstart such as it leaving you with a dirty filesystem.

Re:More information on the topic (4, Informative)

Fubar420 (701126) | about 8 months ago | (#46203649)

You're looking at the upstart position document:

https://wiki.debian.org/Debate... [debian.org] and https://wiki.debian.org/Debate... [debian.org] represent broader parts of the debate.

Re:More information on the topic (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203841)

Which are filled with bad logic. For example:

      Systemd is often said to be too big for the functionality of an init system.

              However it is much more than init, and if you take into account all the functionality it can provide or replace, you’ll soon find out that it takes less lines of code than the alternatives, in a language (C) that takes less memory to execute.

This is not the point or benefit of the original UNIX and much of the Linux architecture. By doing small tasks well, a reliable toolchain can be built of those small tasks. *OF COURSE* a monolithic megamonster is going to have fewer lines of code than all the different components shoe-horned into it. And of course *it's going to get details wrong* in those individual components, but the monolithic megamonster may rely on those flaws or make debugging of them unreasonably difficult.

Been there, done that, have the bug reports. SuSE tried this sort of stunt with YaST for configurations, which blew, and Red Hat has more recently done it with NetworkManager, and Gnome tried it with Gnome 3. They were bad ideas then, they're *still* bad ideas, and I rip them the hell out as fast as I can for stability. Unfortunately, I can't just rip out the init system....

Re:More information on the topic (1, Insightful)

ustolemyname (1301665) | about 8 months ago | (#46204319)

This is not the point or benefit of the original UNIX and much of the Linux architecture. By doing small tasks well, a reliable toolchain can be built of those small tasks. *OF COURSE* a monolithic megamonster is going to have fewer lines of code than all the different components shoe-horned into it. And of course *it's going to get details wrong* in those individual components, but the monolithic megamonster may rely on those flaws or make debugging of them unreasonably difficult.

I can only assume that all people who support this argument run GNU Hurd, as it's a microkernel, instead of that 16,000,000+ line of code "monolithic megamonster" known as the Linux kernel.

Re:More information on the topic (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204343)

Of course you can rip out the init system. It will warn you about removing essential packages, but that's all. You can switch between systemd-init and systemv-init every other boot if you want to.

I get the impression that you're deeply ignorant of all of these things you talk about. That's probably because you are. Maybe you should read more about what systemd actually does. Maybe you should do what your "gut" tells you no matter whether it makes sense -- hopefully purging two packages isn't too hard for you. And maybe you should go fuck off to BSD land.

I see a lot of discussion about systemd (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203467)

Obviously, there's been a big push across the board by many various distros, but what are the real benefits of systemd? Is it better for average end-users (Easier? Faster?) or those more technically inclined (more stable, uses less resources, more configurable)? Or is this simply a case of it just being non-Canonical?

Re:I see a lot of discussion about systemd (5, Insightful)

broken_chaos (1188549) | about 8 months ago | (#46203633)

The biggest thing that pushed adoption was when it absorbed udev. You can still run udev without it, but it's plastered with systemd branding and building udev without also building systemd (and then having to manually strip udev out, if you want to run it standalone) is difficult. Beyond that, Gnome 3.8 made it (almost) a hard requirement. Strictly speaking you can run Gnome without, but, as I understand, it loses almost all of the power/disk/device management.

People like it because it's obsessed with boot times (which is apparently a really important thing to people who don't actually run a real-world system, where boot times of 10 seconds vs. 5 seconds are meaningless), has a few useful features (often, subjectively, questionably implemented), and has really good PR. The problems with it include an obsession with APIs (Unix, everything is a file -> systemd, everything is an API), an everything-and-the-kitchen-sink approach (NIH: write their own binary-formatted logging daemon, their own cron daemon, their own implementation of dbus, ...), and a horrid misunderstanding of what an initsystem really needs to do for servers (LP: "Control groups of course are at the center of what a modern server needs to do." -- which, really, what it needs to do is serve things, not shuffle processes around various metaphorical boxes). The project is, as a result of including the kitchen sink, also extremely monolithic -- everything is stuffed in a single git repo, a single tarball, and is heavily interconnected.

Two of the primary developers (Lennart Poettering and Kay Sievers) are also notoriously hard to deal with if you ever suggest they've done something incorrectly. You can find a lot of examples of this, largely to do with LP's attitude towards anything that isn't systemd, and Sievers' regular breaking of udev over the past few years.

Re:I see a lot of discussion about systemd (4, Insightful)

Junta (36770) | about 8 months ago | (#46203693)

The problems with it include an obsession with APIs

Incidentally, this also means they align more closely with Microsoft thinking than traditional Unix thinking. At some point I wish these people would just accept they want Windows and go with Windows and leave Linux alone.

Re:I see a lot of discussion about systemd (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203751)

They cloned Theo de Raadt?

Re:I see a lot of discussion about systemd (1)

richlv (778496) | about 8 months ago | (#46204161)

3 times. one was lennart, wan was kay - and 3rd was the designer of slashdot beta

Re:I see a lot of discussion about systemd (5, Insightful)

Peter H.S. (38077) | about 8 months ago | (#46204425)

The problem for Gnome and KDE is, that systemd is vastly superior to anything out there, and that it will help them dump loads of hard to maintain code, and give them easy access to make powerful distro-agnostic programs.

systemd provides a a common, uniform Linux plumbing system that makes life easier for all user program developers. So of course Gnome and KDE will start to take advantage of systemd, why shouldn't they?

The main problem with those who for some reason or another doesn't like systemd, is that they are incredible lazy. Instead of actually getting together to make an alternative development stack to systemd, they rant against Poettering and spew empty platitudes about "UNIX philosophy".

The most pathetic example of this anti-systemd laziness, is of course "ConsoleKit". It has now been unmaintained for +1½ years, but it is a crucial piece of infra-structure for any Desktop. But instead of either maintain it or make an alternative, anti-systemd people just rant against Gnome for no longer making it a priority to support this piece of abandonware. All rant and no work.

Re:I see a lot of discussion about systemd (4, Informative)

Junta (36770) | about 8 months ago | (#46203647)

systemd versus upstart is mostly anti-canonical sentiment coming home to roost. Canonical has made it clear they don't want to play nice with the wider non-canonical community, and now that's going reciprocal. In a way, systemd and Wayland should be grateful. A non trivial amount of the increased urgency behind migration to those schemes are driven by a distaste for canonical as they push upstart and Mir.

systemd versus sysv init most visibly leads to faster boot (by providing a richer dependency model and avoiding spawning as many processes through skipping shell scripts a lot). The downside should be clear in general, the philosophy leaning more toward compiled modules over shell scripts means it's harder for a lay person to dig in and follow things and understand how they work. If you dig deeper you'll notice that the number of getty processes is lower for most people by skipping spawning such things until the VC is active and other similar things. These are things that really don't meaningfully add to the experience in 99.999% of cases, but it's the sorts of little awkward/arbitrary things that systemd aspires to be a bit more fancy about managing. If a distribution fully embraces systemd philosophy (e.g. Fedora), no more plaintext logfile to peruse. You get tools to do some more sophisticated things to log files, but if you find yourself with the data in a place without ready access to those tools, you will be out of luck.

Re:I see a lot of discussion about systemd (5, Insightful)

GodWasAnAlien (206300) | about 8 months ago | (#46204347)

"systemd versus sysv init most visibly leads to faster boot".

That was the original marketing. systemd of course is much much more than boot.
Systemd touches every part of the OS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

Upstart was bad. Systemd is worse. Both were born as boot/init systems and are unconstrained in scope.

Any program unconstrained in scope will grow into a monolithic mess.

Join the slashcott farewell: (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203509)

The Individual Midnight Thread - Farewell [slashdot.org]

I'm moving with all the great community of smart people and old-timers to http://www.altslashdot.org/ [altslashdot.org] (server will be up & running in few hours).

See you all great guys there!

We are also on IRC ##altslashdot on freenode

Fpailzors! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203521)

I vote for old slashdot over beta upstart (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203533)

Slashdot is officially dead. Beta killed it. Goodbye Slashdot.

Beware journald... (5, Insightful)

Junta (36770) | about 8 months ago | (#46203561)

I don't think I have much qualm about systemd as it relates to the init process. However, the people behind systemd push *hard* that text format logging is some anachronistic evil and that files on disk should just be binary. They do some pandering to the crowd by saying to run something like rsyslog alongside systemd, but that seems pretty counter to the other areas where there is an emphasis on running as few processes as possible (ambition to replace at, cron, change from running static number of getty on VC specified by inittab to on demand spawning of getty as auto detected). It's clear they regard users valuing plain text data with some disdain. There is plenty of opportunity to achieve the gains whilst concurrently providing a plain text stream to peruse natively, but they have *zero* interest in trying to pursue such paths.

This is also the brainchild of Lennart Poettering, who has had a track record of getting stuff widely into distribution critical usage path before it's ready (avahi and pulseaudio have given me lots of headaches). Also trying to get DBus into the kernel, which seems absolutely bonkers.

In general, distributions embracing this become increasingly opaque to admins. Distribution behavior flows through an increasingly complex labyrinth of crap that it approaches Microsoft level BS. I'm somewhat disheartened at the possibilities here.

Re:Beware journald... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203603)

Yes. I don't like SystemD itself but all the baggage it comes with and the dependencies it tries to build are just... it's like some sort of cancerous kraken. Yes. That bad.

Re:Beware journald... (3, Informative)

fnj (64210) | about 8 months ago | (#46203675)

In general, distributions embracing this become increasingly opaque to admins.

Essentially all important server distros have caved at this point. RHEL7 is systemd. Pretty sure SuSE and Mageia are (or soon will be) systemd, if there are any of those left. Arch for the server dangerous-livers is systemd. Now Debian.

I would call all of them lemmings (except Red Hat, which is the actual instigator), except realistically what were they to do? Get left by the wayside? The writing on the wall is clear. For me it's enough to pay a lot more attention to BSD.

Re:Beware journald... (3, Insightful)

Narcocide (102829) | about 8 months ago | (#46203801)

I too, lament the apparent impending demise of sysvinit shell script startup and plain text logging/process handling. Functional transparency in Linux booting was a good thing, and it will be missed. It seems more to me like these people arguing so hard over whether to replace sysvinit with upstart or systemd as though just leaving it alone was not an obvious option are more interested in changing the Linux init system to something inherently less secure and more obfuscated so that they can leverage it as a tool in some sort of entirely separate logistical/technical/political maneuvering and pissing match. I don't know any actually experienced sysadmins who are not involved directly with upstart or systemd development (and thereby have a vested career interest in promoting one or the other) who think eliminating sysvinit after all these years has any sanity or operational value whatsoever. The actual complaints about sysvinit are things that in practical use are only minor annoyances to the uneducated, quickly overcome by a modest amount of experience. The obvious maintenance nightmares that will be created by what these guys want to replace it with (either systemd or upstart, but for differing reasons) would dwarf any problems anyone ever had with sysvinit even if they were persistent, actual technical limitations, not just basically "user error."

Re:Beware journald... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204087)

The actual complaints about sysvinit are things that in practical use are only minor annoyances to the uneducated, quickly overcome by a modest amount of experience. The obvious maintenance nightmares that will be created by what these guys want to replace it with (either systemd or upstart, but for differing reasons) would dwarf any problems anyone ever had with sysvinit even if they were persistent, actual technical limitations, not just basically "user error."

The idea that sysvinit is a simple and transparent system may have been true fifteen years ago, and it may still be true on some servers which only have to support a relatively small and static set of hardware, but on desktops sysvinit has become a nightmare. A set of init scripts that is sophisticated enought to cope with a huge and diverse array of hotpluggable devices and devices that may enumerate in arbitrary and unstable ways, appearing and disappearing without warning, may technically be 'just' shell code, but it may as well be a hex dump of an ELF file for all the sense I can make of it unless I have hours to spend examining it. I guess you can call it "user error" that I am not prepared to spend a week becoming a guru in Bash and Linux boot processes just to make a few changes to network startup, but I don't think I am being unreasonable.

Re:Beware journald... (3, Informative)

Narcocide (102829) | about 8 months ago | (#46204309)

As someone who does run Linux on desktops as well (and has been doing so for much longer than a week) I can tell you conclusively that if you think you need to become a Bash guru just to make "a few changes to network startup" then YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG probably starting with not reading the distro-specific setup instructions, and making the typical noob mistake of assuming that just because something seems evidently possible to accomplish without reading said instructions that reading the instructions wouldn't have uncovered a much easier approach, i.e. the way it was meant to be done.

Either that or you're misrepresenting the amount of functional alteration you're attempting to actually accomplish with your setup, in which case... boy will you feel betrayed when you find out what type of stuff you'll need to "become a guru in" the first time you don't like the out-of-the-box functionality systemd provides.

Re:Beware journald... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203919)

I don't think I have much qualm about systemd as it relates to the init process.

Right, ever tried to actually use the fucking thing? Sure I can alias 'halt', 'shutdown' and 'reboot' to systemctl counterparts but none are going to work if I just upgraded dbus. We can list a myriad of issues but making shutdown rely on an ipc daemon... need I go on?

Can we get some competent engineers in the room over at systemd HQ? Than perhaps when they're done with the required ground-up rewrite of shitstormd, Dice can hire them to fix beta!

#fucksystemd #fuckbeta #fuckslashdice

Re:Beware journald... (5, Interesting)

Peter H.S. (38077) | about 8 months ago | (#46204215)

I don't think I have much qualm about systemd as it relates to the init process. However, the people behind systemd push *hard* that text format logging is some anachronistic evil and that files on disk should just be binary. They do some pandering to the crowd by saying to run something like rsyslog alongside systemd, but that seems pretty counter to the other areas where there is an emphasis on running as few processes as possible...

I was sceptical about binary log-files too in the beginning. However, I didn't have to play around with the journalctl tool before I realized that systemd's logging is far superior to any existing simple text logging.

stuff like "journalctl -b 2" (only show logs from previous boot) and "journalctl -F _SYSTEMD_UNIT" (show all systemd units that have ever written to the logs) are pure gold. The amount of tab-completion with everything is just so nice. Try "jou (TAB) -F (TAB)" and it will show all possible values.
You get logging info from much earlier in the boot process then previously, and with kdbus something that will get even earlier and later in the boot process and when shutting down.

journalctl works great with all the usual text tools like grep, just think of it as a super 'cat' with god-like sorting powers.

Forget what others sneers about Poettering and systemd, and give it a proper workout with a distro that supports it properly, like Fedora 20 or similar. Make up your own mind by actually using it.

This is a good starting point:
http://www.freedesktop.org/wik... [freedesktop.org]

To me it is clear that systemd simply is the future Linux plumbing system, and to me it is a quite brilliant solution as it is now.

Especially logging is a huge improvement. Novices can for the first time actually do usable filtering without knowing arcane programs and switches. A simple "journalctl -b -p err" will reveal much of interest for the novice trying to debug a problem. (shows all messages of priority levels ERROR and worse, from the current boot).

And because the log is structured in db form, there will be GUI logviewers that are actually useful, and that can do filtering and sorting by eg. error levels, monotonic timestamps etc.

Re:Beware journald... (3, Interesting)

skids (119237) | about 8 months ago | (#46204313)

This is also the brainchild of Lennart Poettering, who has had a track record of getting stuff widely into distribution critical usage path before it's ready (avahi and pulseaudio have given me lots of headaches). Also trying to get DBus into the kernel, which seems absolutely bonkers.

That's disenheartneing to hear, considering how many times I have had to hack the hell out of my init scripts to kill avahi because I DO NOT WANT IT, and the fact that pulseaudio came in and made a mess where jackd was just starting to make things sane, and the time spent would have been better spent improving jackd.

But on the other hand, jackd had that unfortunate attempt to fork into a C++ reimplementation, and lost its (never fully supported) ability to run as a systemwide daemon so background daemons could use the soundcard, and pulseaudio has since turned an about face and started supporting a systemwide daemon, more RT features (AFAIK not quite yet up to snuff with what JACKd offered) and has been less of a general nuisance recently.

So, there's something to be said for software that starts out as inferior but due to the charisma and/or persistance of its proponents, eventually manages to get a larger development community, because that community will beat it into shape, and hopefully manage to shed as much cruft left over from the inferior design through a concerted deprecation effort. It's a hassle to us users, but works out eventually. It looks like this has happened and will continue to happen with systemd.

We could avoid that if the competent projects were somehow given an injection of participants, but people that write necessarily-complex code generally tend to spend most of their time doing just that, not glad-handing on mailing lists, whereas the authors of insufficient simplied solutions have more time to politic. The only part about that that stings is that the latter often uses the former as a cheat-sheet going forward and does not bother to give credit,

Die, Ubuntu, Die (on topic = marginal) (-1, Troll)

callmetheraven (711291) | about 8 months ago | (#46203607)

Ubuntu: The distro for people not clever enough to install something more serious, and don't know that Mint is a far better choice for such people. Whenever I encounter someone who endorses Ubuntu, I downgrade their geek score down to that of a Windows 8 fan.

I admit that the idiotic ebonified pseudo-mult-culti-faggy name "Ubuntu" (sounds like the name of Idi Amin's dog, "sit Ubuntu, sit") was the cause of my initial distaste, but since the list good of reasons to hate Ubuntu has grown long. As a longtime Debian lover (have version 2.0 install media right here), the less Debian becomes like Ubuntu the better!

Re:Die, Ubuntu, Die (on topic = marginal) (3, Insightful)

loufoque (1400831) | about 8 months ago | (#46203653)

Ubuntu used to be good before they destroyed themselves around 2011.
Mint is an Ubuntu fork after all...

Re:Die, Ubuntu, Die (on topic = marginal) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203839)

What Mint really needs to get widespread adoption is a better story around major release updates. They say something like, "better just save your user data, reinstall the system from scratch, and restore your data...", or "uhh you can try to update but we don't promise it'll work..."

Not good answers. If they fix that, Ill switch to Mint tomorrow.

Re:Die, Ubuntu, Die (on topic = marginal) (3, Informative)

BanHammor (2587175) | about 8 months ago | (#46204065)

You do know your pretty flagrant racism makes your opinions automatically much less sound, right?

So Long Debian! (0, Flamebait)

zixxt (1547061) | about 8 months ago | (#46203627)

As a current Debian(testing,Jessie) user this strikes me as a bad choice. However I am thankful that there other sane distros not drinking Lennart Poettering's brain cell killing kool-aid. So I say hail o/ to the Linux Distros not selling their souls, Slackware, Gentoo , Ubuntu thank you guys for not being retards and seeing the suckyness of systemd.

Seems I will have to migrate off Debian pretty soon. It was a good year I had with Debian but with this it seems Debian as chosen to be a follower, a kool aid drinker and a also ran instead of being unique. Thank you Lennart for killing off another distro for me to love.

Re:So Long Debian! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203757)

Gentoo has options for systemd. You apparently need it for certain versions of gnome.

Re:So Long Debian! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203805)

systemd is the init system equivalent of Beta. Fuck Beta. Fuck Lennart too.

The gentoo community hates systemd you will be most welcome.

Re:So Long Debian! (0)

zixxt (1547061) | about 8 months ago | (#46204031)

systemd is the init system equivalent of Beta. Fuck Beta. Fuck Lennart too.

LOL true Dat.

The gentoo community hates systemd you will be most welcome.

Thanks

Re:So Long Debian! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204281)

A lot of whining, but no actual arguments. May you have the kindness to give reasons for your aversion to systemd before insulting people?

systemd devs can go fuck themselves (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46203725)

Their recent updates have broken udev so badly, that Gentoo decided to fork udev to retain the old design. Debian should pay attention.

OpenRC (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46204043)

This is the first I've heard of OpenRC, but it sounds like the ideal compromise to improve the init system while remaining compatible with it and not consuming unrelated projects into it.

https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc

sad. Now what is the alternative? Fork? (1)

GodWasAnAlien (206300) | about 8 months ago | (#46204263)

Upstart was unnecessary in Ubuntu. Systemd is not necessary in Fedora or Debian.

There are other ways to get fast boots, without create another monolithic do-everything daemon with spaghetti dependencies.
Basic software engineering principles (and Unix principles), should tell you that do-everything daemons, like upstart, systemd, hald are bad ideas.

With such complex, unmodular core Linux systems, Linux based OS's will grow increasingly more unstable and insecure.

Also, systemd and upstart make Linux much less suitable for embedded systems.

The choices, I guess, are:

Fork the pre-systemd Debian.
Start fresh, perhaps even starting with the simple event based init system from the most popular Linux distribution in the world ... Android.

Good, because it's inevitable (5, Interesting)

Bryan Ischo (893) | about 8 months ago | (#46204391)

This is good because it will get systemd onto even more systems, which will hopefully be a forcing function for improving it so that it's more usable.

The introduction of systemd into my distros of choice (I was a heavy Arch Linux user until this year, when I switched back to Fedora after a ~8 year absence) has caused me more problems that any other single change to any part of the Linux operating system in my history of its usage (and I've been using Linux since 1994).

I'm at the point in my life where I just want things to work; and I found that systemd has in many places not worked well. I wholly believe that the problems are generally due to the implementation of the individual services, and not bugs in systemd itself, although I suspect that the 90 degree turn taken by systemd and its associated complexity are the genesis of the problems in the individual services themselves.

In particular, I've found that systemd on Fedora cannot properly start up an NFS server. I have a post-start up script that I run manually to start NFS because no matter what I do, it does not seem possible to force systemd to start all of the requisite NFS services. systemds tools for figuring out what could be going wrong are, I am sure, complete, but very impenetrable to a person who wants to understand the minimum necessary to fix a problem.

Additionally, it seems to be easy to break systemd's boot scripts in a way that prevent systemd from being able to boot the system (it's happened to me over and over again through what seemd like innocuous user actions), and I have never successfully gotten systemd to boot into its recovery shell. I can get to the recovery shell but I can never type anything into it, it seems like there's something borked with the way it handles keyboard input somehow.

In summary, systemd is much less mature than init ever was, which, combined with its tendency to reimplement everything and thus de-evolve much of what used-to-work into no-longer-works-easily, has resulted in whole system failures at a rate that I have never, ever experienced before under Linux.

All that being said, it's pretty clear that lots of Linux distro maintainers are more excited by the few advancements that systemd makes over the old init system, than they are put off by the lack of maturity and quality of systemd; therefore, systemd is an inevitability, and I'm glad that debian is taking it now, because it will mean even more developer effort towards fixing its problems.

In short: more pain for other people, making them more likely to fix my problems for me. So I'm happy that debian is doing this to their users, for my benefit.

tried an true? (1)

Gravis Zero (934156) | about 8 months ago | (#46204407)

honestly, i would rather have something that is known to work in the long term and not need update to patch bugs or possible changes to the config file implementation. let's just use something that we know works.

on the other hand, couldn't it be an optional package (a package is required but there are multiple to choose from) with the default as systemd?

My biggest gripe with systemd... (2)

wonkey_monkey (2592601) | about 8 months ago | (#46204455)

...is that "systemctl" is a lot of keys to type, and the last four are all consonants.

At least "service" is an actual word.

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