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Wine On Android Starts Allowing Windows Binaries On Android/ARM

timothy posted about 6 months ago | from the it-should-be-called-bender dept.

Wine 140

An anonymous reader writes "Wine on Android is happening slowly but surely ... Wine is now in a state to be able to run your favorite Windows (x86) game on your Android-powered ARM device, assuming the game is Windows Solitaire. Wine has been making progress on Android to allow simple applications to run on Wine, but they have run into some challenges, as noted in the annual talk at FOSDEM."

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STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208807)

Dammit, Dice, I thought you said you heard us. I don't want to use beta, stop redirecting me there PLEASE. I didn't want to do the stupid boycott thing, but when I came into work this morning and found myself on Beta... well, I think I'll just leave.

Better than protest! (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208851)

The interesting thing about this is that when using Beta, the default view is to show everything. So, if you are using Beta, these trollish anti-beta things are perfectly visible, while if you are on Classic they just get filtered out with the rest of the trolls. So, if you really like Classic and hate Beta, the best thing you can do is try to post an anti-beta, pro-classic threat to leave the site as first post instead of Frosty Piss or whatever. That way, if any advertisers to who Dice is trying to market its new shiny actually check out the site, they will see the user dissatisfaction with the design immediately. Then, in subsequent threads we can go on having our usual geeky conversations in Classic.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (3, Interesting)

allo (1728082) | about 6 months ago | (#46209113)

Isn't it strange, that every anti-beta post is now modded -1, even when the majority of the users is against beta?
And off-topic is wrong, anti-beta is on-topic, because this is a slashdot article, and it will be displayed in the beta website, if slashdot decides to abandon the classic one.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209165)

Isn't it strange, that every anti-beta post is now modded -1, even when the majority of the users is against beta?

Of course they are modded down because they are just repeating the same thing over and over. We know already how much the beta sucks.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209247)

The point is: Slashdot should stop the beta, the users will stop spamming. Sometimes you have to protest until something changes.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209787)

I thought all the "FUCK BETA" assholes were supposed to be on Slashcott this week, or whatever the fuck they call it.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46210131)

How much do the admins care that about half of the comments are now off-topic spam? Versus how much do users of the site care about it being useless now under both classic and beta? Regardless of your intentions, the result is it looks like the beta spammers are trying to make Slashdot classic suck as bad or worse than beta. People have no reason to stick around and see if they actually fix or dump beta, because it sucks now people might as well leave regardless of what Dice and admins do at this point. It is like getting the same results as having let them implement beta without complaining, but with much more wasted effort.

protest (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209987)

don't understand the idea of a protest?

Not often are chanters at a picket told "Yo, guys, we get it, low wages. you can stop now."

Majority? (1)

Sepodati (746220) | about 6 months ago | (#46209701)

Squeaky wheels and all that.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (1)

mark-t (151149) | about 6 months ago | (#46209873)

They are off topic, since the topic is not about slashdot, but about whatever the article is about. As is this post, for that matter.

Not against beta (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46210083)

I have been considering dropping slashdot from sites I visit daily because of this whole beta, but not because of the beta, but because of the idiots who rage on about it.

Stop hijacking every damn post with your stupid beta complaints.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 6 months ago | (#46210465)

Being against beta doesn't mean I approve of this constant railing against it. You're doing more damage to Slashdot than beta ever could, rendering it pretty much unreadable.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (0)

aitikin (909209) | about 6 months ago | (#46209299)

I don't know why, but I did not get redirected to Beta. Ever. The only reason I knew everyone hated it was the comments (and the fact that I saw it when it was initially created and left feedback that this sort of thing would happen). I have no idea as to why, but I'm not complaining.

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209481)

STOP REDIRECTING!

Re:STOP REDIRECTING DAMMIT (1)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | about 6 months ago | (#46210181)

Whats a good slashdot alternative? Maybe someone here ought to set up a site realslashdot.org running the classic interface and then we will move over there.

Slashdot Rest in Peace (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208809)

Beta killed you.

Re: Slashdot Rest in Peace (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208895)

First i beta tested your sister

Re:Slashdot Rest in Peace (0)

Bozzio (183974) | about 6 months ago | (#46209065)

You sirDrama queen.

Re:Slashdot Rest in Peace (0)

jones_supa (887896) | about 6 months ago | (#46209185)

Updates are being applied...

Please do not close your Slashdot.

(spinning pearls animation)

Re:Slashdot Rest in Peace (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209669)

on the formerly news for nerds website known as slashdot, beta tests you.

seriously, all beta is, is a new back door for the NSA to track who all the ACs really are.

yes, Beta tracks you.

Capt Keen (4, Funny)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | about 6 months ago | (#46208817)

Call me back when I ran run my Captain Keen from Floppies!

Re:Capt Keen (5, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 6 months ago | (#46208825)

That's Commander Keen to you! (And, incidentally, on an Android device with USB OTG and a copy of DOSbox, you should be only a USB floppy drive away from doing that right now...)

Re:Capt Keen (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208937)

After 24 years, poor Billy Blaze deserves a promotion by now!

Re:Capt Keen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208957)

Fair enough, but let's promote him to Admiral Keen because Captain Keen is a Simpsons character.

Re:Capt Keen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209089)

Commodore is a fitting rank for someone of his experience.

Re:Capt Keen (1)

Minwee (522556) | about 6 months ago | (#46210271)

Or perhaps Apple or Atari.

Re:Capt Keen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209535)

Just copy the files and run it in dosbox..... I already play it that way on my desktop....

Re:Capt Keen (2)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 6 months ago | (#46209679)

He said he wanted to run from floppies. Seems morally unsound to me; but I just do implementation...

Re: Capt Keen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208829)

Doubt there will ever be floppy support, but there are already DOSBox ports for Android.

Re: Capt Keen (4, Informative)

kav2k (1545689) | about 6 months ago | (#46208841)

Seems like it's not the case, and USB floppy drives work out of the box (though you need a powered hub): https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

Re:Capt Keen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208833)

I think you mean Commander Keen, and yes, you can already do that with aDosBox for instance.

Re:Capt Keen (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208845)

Commander Keen: Invasion of the Vorticons [classicdosgames.com] , in a Java applet

but does it run Steam games? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208827)

I need my DRM because I'm a stupid Valve loving moron!

Video of talk is available: (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208843)

http://video.fosdem.org/2014/AW1120/Sunday/Wine_on_Android.webm

Re:Video of talk is available: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208847)

I should add - Video - not audio...

Re:Video of talk is available: (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208893)

Fail.

ARM executables? (4, Interesting)

supersat (639745) | about 6 months ago | (#46208861)

What about ARM executables? Windows RT ships with most of the Windows utilities ported to ARM, as well as Office and .NET.

Re:ARM executables? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208869)

Here's an idea: Instead of using distributed computing for all this junk science, let's start a central distributed network. Wine would have a basic interface element for all the major OS configurations, and would be able to update from the web with whatever mathematic formula and trial space it was supposed to run at a given time. Everyone everywhere could download the Wine client, and set it up to run with whatever processor load they wanted, update on a schedule, maybe vary processor load on a schedule so it works extra hard when you're not using the system. Not much of an interface really.

Re:ARM executables? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208891)

No thanks. I don't want to run your pornographic virtual girlfriend apps for you.

Re:ARM executables? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209059)

Windows RT ships with most of the Windows utilities ported to ARM, as well as Office and .NET.

Who cares?

For every crappy half-arsed app on RT, there's a thousand better naive Android apps.

Re:ARM executables? (3, Interesting)

CastrTroy (595695) | about 6 months ago | (#46209331)

Personally, I think that Windows could make really good inroads into the tablet market if they provided some kind of compatibility layer to run Android apps. Since they're using ARM on their Surface tablet, IT wouldn't even require actual emulation to get Android apps running on Windows RT. As an owner of the Surface 2, I have to say that the only real problem I have with it is the lack of apps, and providing the ability to run Android apps would make it probably the best tablet out there (even though I'm already convinced it is).

Re:ARM executables? (2)

0123456 (636235) | about 6 months ago | (#46209797)

Don't you, like, buy an operating system to run apps?

Why would you buy a Windows tablet if you're just going to run Android apps?

Re:ARM executables? (2, Informative)

CastrTroy (595695) | about 6 months ago | (#46209943)

It's not really so simple. With tablets you don't buy an operating system. You buy the whole experience. You can't buy a tablet and then choose an operating system after the fact. I chose the Surface over other tablet options because of 2 main reasons.

1) Ability to plug in an SD card for expandable storage.
2) Reasonable expectation that I'll get OS updates.

The first reason excludes all Apple tablets as well as many Android tablets. The second excludes most Android devices. Sure you may get updates with Android devices, but it's kind of a gamble.

Apps was really secondary. Mostly with apps, I looked at whether or not there were enough apps to enjoy the device. I don't care if there's ten thousand, or a million, or a billion, because in reality I won't install more than a few hundred apps (and most likely a lot less). As long as it has a few fun games, the ability to browse web pages, play music, play movies, and the ability to get a little work done from time to time, it basically fits my needs. The browser on the Surface is actually quite good, and negates the need for many apps in the first place. There's no Youtube app, but the website works just fine. There is a Facebook apps, but it doesn't even need to be used unless you want background notifications, because the browser can access all of Facebook's functionality.

Re:ARM executables? (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 6 months ago | (#46210487)

An android compatibility layer didn't do Blackberry much good.

From someone who's tested it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208863)

This is of course where Quantum Cryptography comes in. Photons all have specific polarizations. You can send a stream of randomly polarized photons through a polarizing filter, and photons with the same polarization angle as the filter will pass, while those with a polarization rotated 90 degrees with respect to the filter are blocked. What then happens to photons that have some intermediate angle? On the macroscale, we can say that the intensity of the light is a function of the angle, and infer that at a 45 degree tilt, 1/2 of the light is blocked, and 1/2 passes through. Enter Quantum Mechanics. It is fairly obvious to see the effect that polarizing filters have on a large scale quantity of light, but what about individual photons? Since the intensity of light at a 45 degree angle is 1/2 its normal value, one can infer that one half of the photons with a 45 degree polarization pass through, while one half are blocked. Simple enough. But if you send just one photon through with a 45 degree polarization, can you determine whether it will pass through? The answer, surprisingly enough, is no. You cannot determine whether a photon will pass through, and you will not know whether it passed through until it hits (or fails to hit) a detector on the other side. Can't determine? That makes it a random process, perfect to set up a OTP. It happens to have some interesting side benefits as well. Since the possibilities are pass and blocked, two possibilities- a string of photons sent at the filter produces a random binary sting of 1's (passed) and 0's (blocked). There is another fascinating benefit- if someone tries to sit in the middle of the photon stream and determine photon polarization, their eavesdropping will be evident- by checking the polarization of a photon in transit, they change the value of the polarization. All two people using quantum crypto need to do is confirm a few values that were sent (this can be done insecurely, since these values will not actually be used in the cipher pad)- if they match up, then send the message, encoded with the OTP, if not, someone is eavesdropping, and so discard the pad. It's a lot more complex than that, of course, but that's the general idea- you can use QC to generate a one-time pad, and then send it in such a way that you know whether or not you're being spied on.

Re:From someone who's tested it (1)

maynard (3337) | about 6 months ago | (#46209003)

There is another fascinating benefit- if someone tries to sit in the middle of the photon stream and determine photon polarization, their eavesdropping will be evident- by checking the polarization of a photon in transit, they change the value of the polarization.

I think there's a problem with this. What you describe is similar to a BB84 quantum key distribution scheme. But I think you're missing a quantum no-cloning mechanism here.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N... [wikipedia.org]

In BB84 photon polarization is used to encode qubit data, much like what you propose. Here's Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q... [wikipedia.org]

According to quantum mechanics (particularly quantum indeterminacy), no possible measurement distinguishes between the 4 different polarization states, as they are not all orthogonal. The only possible measurement is between any two orthogonal states (an orthonormal basis). So, for example, measuring in the rectilinear basis gives a result of horizontal or vertical. If the photon was created as horizontal or vertical (as a rectilinear eigenstate) then this measures the correct state, but if it was created as 45 or 135 (diagonal eigenstates) then the rectilinear measurement instead returns either horizontal or vertical at random. Furthermore, after this measurement the photon is polarized in the state it was measured in (horizontal or vertical), with all information about its initial polarization lost.

But I think in your scheme the detector wouldn't know how many photons had been emitted or what polarization any arbitrary photon should be, therefore it couldn't determine if a photon had been emitted by your source of a man-in-the-middle device. And by transmitting that information from emitter to detector classically, you'd negate any security gained.

You'd need to establish a stream of entangled photon pairs:

By using quantum superpositions or quantum entanglement and transmitting information in quantum states, a communication system can be implemented which detects eavesdropping. If the level of eavesdropping is below a certain threshold, a key can be produced that is guaranteed to be secure (i.e. the eavesdropper has no information about it), otherwise no secure key is possible and communication is aborted.

Now: big caveat, this is not my field and I am no expert in qcomputing or qcryptography. Corrections are most welcome.

Re: From someone who's tested it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209005)

What the fuck is this shit?

get rid of wine retards (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208907)

there are no windows apps that are not already on android and why would you run insecure trash windows apps anyway. wine devs can go home now, there is noone wanting windows crap anymore. is microsoft funding this disaster of a dev group. what possible advantage would there be running crap windows apps on android. android is so much better than anything else on this planet except jolla.

fuck beta.

N900 (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208919)

This was already done on the N900 (ARM!) using qemu, and it even had acceptable performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3v4YC9RT-g [youtube.com]

Welch Grape Wine (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208947)

On June 7, 2012, at age of 66 Welch committed suicide in his Nashville home at around 12:15 p.m. He was found by his wife, Wendy, with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chest; a 9-page suicide note and love letter had been written to his wife. According to her, Welch had had spinal surgery three months earlier. Doctors told him he would not get better.

Mystery to Me.

Re:Welch Grape Wine (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208997)

Was Welch a guard at Guantanamo. Couldn't go on living after seeing the suffering of all those prisoners he juiceboarded. Because that sure explains everything.

increasingly inaccurate acronyms (3, Funny)

nten (709128) | about 6 months ago | (#46208949)

So now WINE *is* an emulator? Thats a tough acronym to sell, recursive or otherwise. I guess really the QEMU package is the emulator, but still.

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (4, Funny)

Adam Colley (3026155) | about 6 months ago | (#46208979)

Wine Is Now Emulation

Not so tough -.o

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46208981)

The irony is the acronym originally meant WINdows Emulator, so now it does again, huh.

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (1)

fgouget (925644) | about 6 months ago | (#46209157)

The irony is the acronym originally meant WINdows Emulator, so now it does again, huh.

Actually it's QEmu that does the emulation part to get x86 applications running on arm. See the schema at 30:00 in the Wine on Android video [belnet.be] (with sound as soon as the FOSDEM guys get to it).

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (1)

Big Hairy Ian (1155547) | about 6 months ago | (#46208995)

Erm Linux runs on plenty of non windows processors. Some of which people are trying to get WINE running on. What's your point?

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209015)

What's a windows processor? Does it run .NET CIR bytecode in hardware or something?

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (1)

Big Hairy Ian (1155547) | about 6 months ago | (#46209307)

Sorry forgot I was in here I meant X86 Architecture

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (2)

evanh (627108) | about 6 months ago | (#46209081)

The point is Wine can't perform the emulation that is needed for x86 code to run on an ARM CPU. For that you actually need and emulator.

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (1)

Big Hairy Ian (1155547) | about 6 months ago | (#46209303)

And my point is Linux supports non X86 architecture would he have the same issue if someone was making WINE work on that?

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (2)

Wootery (1087023) | about 6 months ago | (#46209319)

Yes. This is exactly what evanh just said. Wine doesn't translate instruction-sets, it just makes available the Windows ABI. Therefore, if you want to run Linux+Wine on anything but x86/x86-64, you'll need hardware-emulation, which Wine itself doesn't provide.

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (2)

Big Hairy Ian (1155547) | about 6 months ago | (#46209389)

So now WINE *is* an emulator? Thats a tough acronym to sell, recursive or otherwise. I guess really the QEMU package is the emulator, but still.

As the TP post was complaining about how we handle the acronym based on the mistaken premise that there was a "not" in there which originally there was not. I was only pointing out that plenty linux distros support different architecture which is equally not supported.

End of

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209553)

Windows software is made up to large amounts of closed source x86 Binaries using the Windows API and related Libraries. Wine (Wine Is Not an Emulator) provides the Windows API by forwarding calls to the native API (Kernel/X11/etc.), Windows programs run native as they would on Windows as long as the underlying processor is x86 conform - which until recently was the only supported platform. Having windows x86 programs run on ARM means that they now also have to emulate the CPU and since x86 was not made to act as an abstraction layer (vs. Java bytecode, CLR instructions and python opcodes) this is costly and slow.

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 6 months ago | (#46210339)

and since x86 was not made to act as an abstraction layer (vs. Java bytecode, CLR instructions and python opcodes) this is costly and slow.

Actually, x86 already *is* an abstraction layer - a lousy one, admittedly, but still, most current CPUs have to perform all sorts of moderately complex computation to massage the x86 stream into something that can be executed quickly. So QEMU and the like are massaging it into something else. There's little technical reason for the ARM version of WINE to be slow, beyond the actual computational performance of a single ARM core.

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209111)

I'm not sure how the Android WINE guys are doing it. But we've had some early WIP builds of WINE on ARM by Linuxbochs on OpenPandora which used QEMU userspace for the emulation.
So yes WINE is not an emulator, QEMU is.

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (2)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | about 6 months ago | (#46209187)

Running wine with qemu is nothing new - ppc linux users were doing that a decade ago.

Re:increasingly inaccurate acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209867)

WISE - Wise Is Sometimes an Emulator

how pathetic is it... (3, Interesting)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 6 months ago | (#46208977)

that it takes the linux open source community to port windows programs to smart phones.

We've been asking for this from MS for EVER. MS keeps worrying about how to win the smartphone war...

They're morons. They'd win instantly if they allowed windows apps to run on the windows phones. Yes yes... there are problems. None of them are impossible to solve. Do it or pay someone to do it.

LOL Your freakin' kidding I hope! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209049)

you obviously have never used WinPh 6.5 or earlier incarnations of windows phones. There is a reason why desktop apps suck on smart phones and I think microsoft is finally starting to understand the reason. There is also one hell of a good reason why mac os10 is different from their touch os IOS. Microsoft is just starting to understand the difference and is why we will see a re-release of seven to replace the fiasco which is 8.

Kudos for the wine guys proving that you can guild turds though and run ms crap apps on arm. But the only way using any of them makes any sense is if you hook up a keyboard and a moose to your cell phone LOL. There is nothing more stupid than running desktop apps on tiny touch screens...OH except SLASH BETA

Re:LOL Your freakin' kidding I hope! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209109)

I just want to be able to run the original "age of empires" on my samsung android tablet, if they can do that, im in.....

Re:how pathetic is it... (4, Insightful)

AC-x (735297) | about 6 months ago | (#46209123)

We've been asking for this from MS for EVER

They just can't win can they?

Everyone: We want the same apps on our phone and tablet as on our desktop!

MS: Ok, with Windows 8 we'll created a unified UI and Dev experience so the same app can be released on all 3 platforms! Neat huh?

Everyone: We don't want our PC to be like a phone, we hate Windows 8!

Re:how pathetic is it... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209177)

They could listen... Doing exactly the opposite of what people ask is not winning.

Home owner: I want my house the same red color as my car.
Painter (who apparently used to work for MS): Ok, I've painted your car white, so now your house has the exact same color as your car.
Home owner: I don't want my car to look like my house, I hate white.

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

Hal_Porter (817932) | about 6 months ago | (#46209395)

We heard you liked Metro so we put Metro on you PC so you use your mouse to make touch screen gestures.

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | about 6 months ago | (#46209399)

I see this a lot. MS could put out just about any product, and you would see people complaining. Just look at Office. People wonder why they have to pay $X00 every time MS puts out an upgrade (97,2000,2003) when very little has changed. Then they question why MS had to change everything with the ribbon interface in 2007.

I kind of get where my anonymous sibling poster said that they went the wrong way, when really they should have just let the desktop apps run on a regular tablet, and not try to get tablet apps onto a desktop, but really things can't work that way. Using a tablet with desktop apps on my Surface just plain doesn't work, unless I hook up a keyboard and mouse, in which case, I would hardly call that a tablet anymore. They have Office that runs in desktop mode on Windows RT, but it really isn't something that you could use with just a tablet. The whole interface would have to be re-done to make it usable with touch screen only controls.

Re:how pathetic is it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209619)

MS: Ok, with Windows 8 we'll created a unified UI and Dev experience so the same app can be released on all 3 platforms! Neat huh?

You forgot Windows CE(?) which was like: you can have the windows Experience on a tablet for the 5 sec. it takes your battery to empty.

You forgot Windows RT which was like: Here a cheap windows on a tablet, hey it runs arm so no desktop applications for you.

You forgot the Windows (formerly known as) Metro API: Only metro apps will be allowed to run on ...

Including your own " Windows 8 we'll created a unified UI" none of them let existing desktop applications run on a smart phone/tablet, every one of them required use of OS version specific APIs or had only a stripped down copy of the win32 API.

It is just like when people asked to get the sart button back, Microsoft reintroduced it without the start menu. It is almost like the complaints get filtered by thirty layers of management playing telephone, in the end the solution has almost nothing to do with the original request.

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 6 months ago | (#46209805)

I'm not asking to have my PC get gimped to the interface of a tablet.

I'm asking to have access to my legacy desktop applications on my phone.

MS never did that.

MS's lock is Windows. That is their draw. That is why people come back.

Who gives a shit about some new OS that isn't compatible with anything? That's fucking stupid. That's more useless then PalmOS.

Give me access to windows on my phone. It can be slow. Make it windows 95 for all I care. Ideally we'd like per application emulation since who wants to actually deal with the OS. What we want is our programs.

If I can run desktop apps on my phone, that is very powerful. But they have to be actual desktop apps. Not neutered metro freaks.

In short. DO NOT touch the PC environment. That is not what I'm asking you to touch. Leave it the fuck alone. Fix the phone. Do that. Back away from the PC.

Am I not being clear?

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

AC-x (735297) | about 6 months ago | (#46210035)

Out of interest, what legacy apps are you so desperate to run on your phone? Up until a few years ago it wouldn't have even been feasible to run an x86 emulator fast enough to emulate anything newer than Win95, and even now I can't imagine what you'd want to run on a slow CPU emulator that there aren't already plenty of good native alternatives for. Well, maybe on an Intel based Android phone it might work ok.

On the other hand I can already access my full PC remotely on my phone via Vnc...

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 6 months ago | (#46210391)

Phones usually have Bluetooth, so they can easily work with keyboards and mice. Also, modern TVs can receive video signal from phones, using wireless, so output is also served. When you have all this, you can carry your desktop around just like with a USB stick computer, only you don't have to carry around the stick computer AND the phone. (Also, the stick computers usually don't have a phone module, so the phone has the advantage of being able to push your backups onto the network in the background. No hassle involved.)

Re:how pathetic is it... (4, Insightful)

Patch86 (1465427) | about 6 months ago | (#46210525)

Everyone: We want to be able to run the programmes that we use on our desktops on our phones too!

MS: OK, with Windows 8 we'll turn your desktop into a MASSIVE PHONE. All your favourite desktop programmes will have to be extensively rewritten so that they can run halfway gracefully on your new MASSIVE PHONE desktop, and will be able to run on your actual phone or tablet too (as long as you buy the software twice, seeing as we're not implementing an ARM/x86 emulation layer at all). Neat, huh?

Everyone: [despair]

Make sense?

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209135)

They don't run on windows phones because they weren't designed for windows phones (eg multitouch, softkeyboards) This is the exact same reason OS X is not on a smartphone, and Ubuntu/Debian/Mandrake/CentOS/Flavor-of-the-month Linux isn't on a smart phone. A smart phone requires a completely different interface design.

iOS succeeds because it doesn't require anything but your fingers. No damned stylus, bluetooth gadgets or other accessories required. I can't say the same of Windows 8 itself. Try running any game on Windows 8 Surface Pro tablet that was not designed to use the tablet touch interface and you'll see the same problem manifest itself. It's not the CPU type holding it back, it's the lack of actual usability.

Ever play an iOS game that was originally on the Nintendo GBA or DS? You'll find that if it was designed for the GBA, it probably sucks to play because of the need of on-screen touch "Dpad and buttons", however if it was designed for the stylus, it works very well for touch (Ghost Trick is an excellent example. Final Fantasy games, not so much.)

Hell even on my original iPAQ, the gameboy emulator I had on there (B&W) the only game that was playable was the gameboy version of Dance Dance Revolution (yes, such an animal exists.) Reason being that I could use the stylus to tap the virtual D pad. Lack of multitouch on those devices prevents a soft-keyboard/Dpad/pad buttons from working.

The only games that predate touch devices that would work well on touch are the old Sierra Point and Click adventure games and the SCUMM based verb games. The Text parsers (SCI (Sierra)/AGI (Sierra)/Z-machine(Zork)) would not function without a word list, and even then in the AGI games, the game didn't pause to type.

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about 6 months ago | (#46210173)

> iOS succeeds because it doesn't require anything but your fingers. No damned stylus,

My ex-ifan loves the stylus on her Android tablet. It eliminates a lot of the crudeness of the usual tablet interface.

Pushing something crippled and calling it superior just because it looks trendy and fashionable doesn't make it so.

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 6 months ago | (#46209151)

... No, it takes morons who think a phone can soft emulate a PC to do this. And you'll note, they only thing mentioned is something that can run slow as balls without killing the experience.

Soft emulation of x86 (a FAR more powerful in every way architecture) on ARM is EXTREMELY slow. JIT is better, but still painfully slow.

ARM is NOT x86, and its a long fucking way from it.

You're reading a retarded headline and acting like suddenly you can play quake on your phone: Heres a hint: you wouldn't use this unless you like waiting days for do anything useful.

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

Grench (833454) | about 6 months ago | (#46209223)

You're reading a retarded headline and acting like suddenly you can play quake on your phone

https://play.google.com/store/... [google.com]

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 6 months ago | (#46209285)

The performance of x86->ARM translation isn't good enough for a commercial product. It'd be fine for running Office 97 but if you tried to run modern office your phone would asplode. What's holding this back is intel can't make x86 processors in the ARM power envelope.

Re:how pathetic is it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209427)

Really? [techradar.com]

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

Hal_Porter (817932) | about 6 months ago | (#46209625)

Also no ARM processor shipping has the horsepower to do a good job at emulating even a low end x86. I think even a really good JIT engine running on the fastest ARM you can get is going to be slower at running x86 code than even the slowest x86.

Back when Dec was trying to get people to buy Alphas they wrote a really clever piece of software called FX!32. It would take an x86 binary and initially run it slowly via instruction by instruction emulation. However while doing that it would profile the application and use the information it gained from that to work out which bits were worth JITting to native Alpha code. Since at that point the fastest Alpha was faster than x86 it ended up running JITted code faster too. So at one point the fastest way to run x86 code was in FX!32 on Alpha.

Now that was possible because of that speed advantage. However really everything comes down to power consumption. Alpha was a server processor and burnt watts prodigiously even compared to Intel. It was also a very clean design and just at the point where Risc was a very efficient design philosophy - the fastest Alpha run about twice the speed of the fastest x86 and the ISA was so recent that it could be implemented efficiently. As time went by it seemed like Risc seemed less of a net win - e.g. Risc chips with 32 bit fixed length instructions had worse code density than x86 and x86 chips moved to a design where x86 opcodes were decoded into Risc like uops internally.

Now with ARM it's not like that. ARM cores are designed for mobile devices and are brilliant for low power and small core size. However there aren't people selling ARMs that are faster than the x86. In fact in general the fastest ARM has run neck and neck with the slowest x86.

Whoops! (0)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 6 months ago | (#46209637)

I'm an addict. I forgot I was supposed to be boycotting. I was going to read and not comment.

I manage not to be addicted to anything else, and I've tried this and that now and again. But Slashdot is a motherfucker.

In conclusion, Fuck Beta.

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 6 months ago | (#46209739)

That's just goal post moving.

If the phone's CPU could emulate a desktop environment of 15 years ago that would be just fine. Most of the increased CPU power for modern applications is just fluff anyway. Anyone want to pretend that applications from 15 years ago weren't capable of the same complexity and sophistication as today? They were much more efficient and less pretty. That's about the only relevant difference. Yes, there are always new features in the new product. But most of them are either never used or could have been implemented in the older software with no performance hit.

Re:how pathetic is it... (1)

jellomizer (103300) | about 6 months ago | (#46210467)

Their problem with running Windows app on a Phone and Tablet.
1. Most of these apps were designed to run on a PC, Mouse, Keyboard, Large Screen. Having used RDP and Citrix apps on tablets, let me tell you these PC apps are just hard to use.

2. Performance. This is less of an issue, especially with older stuff. However these programs could take up a little more resources then expected and use up battery power.

3. Security. Backwards compatibility on a locked device like a phone, is a massive disaster waiting to happen. PC you have more direct access to the hardware allowing to fix problems, as well control how well things are locked down. But Windows Apps are the Following... 32bit DLL, that references an old 16bit dll, which was designed to work on a shell to MS DOS, which had no memory protection at all. A lot of the old apps with native compatibility could be a major problem.

So now Wine IS an emulator (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 6 months ago | (#46209139)

I guess they'll have to change their name at this sage, won't they?

fuck beta (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209491)

fuck beta!!!!!!

MAME-WINE multi-layer emulation (1)

Jason Levine (196982) | about 6 months ago | (#46209549)

How long until I can run MAME through WINE on my Android device. This way I can emulate an older game system while emulating Windows. If the game system I'm emulating is old enough, the resulting processing slowdown of the double emulation might add to the realism of the game system emulation!

Beta sucks. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46209931)

What happened to the old comment ranking system?

Get Wine working on x86 first (1)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | about 6 months ago | (#46210161)

I think Wine ought to focus on making sure 99.9% of WIndows apps run on x86 before it starts thinking about other platforms. As it stands now, Wine's support for applications is so spotty that it falls far short of allowing it to be a Windows replacement, and this really must be the goal of wine.

Maybe we can get a version of this for WinRT? (1)

thevirtualcat (1071504) | about 6 months ago | (#46210167)

I mean, I've always fantasized about being able to run Windows applications on Windows!

Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46210213)

Are they any Windows binaries that matter any more?
Does Windows matter any more?

Re:Why? (1)

WillAdams (45638) | about 6 months ago | (#46210449)

Show me a vector drawing program as:

  - elegant
  - efficient
  - productive
  - intuitive

as FreeHand and I'd be willing to say no --- until then, I have to have Windows or Mac OS X 10.6.8 or NeXT/OPENstep running either FreeHand or Altsys Virtuoso.

Pinball (1)

kemosabi (659932) | about 6 months ago | (#46210537)

The pinball game in windows is designed, someone once told me, to use pretty much all of win32. Don't if that's apocryphal or not, can anyone else say? I wonder if they'd move themselves forward by forcing themselves to get pinball working.
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