Computer Geeks As Loners? Data Says Otherwise 158
Computerworld reports on an analysis of census data to compare marriage rates for different professions. They found the rate for tech workers to be similar to that of other white-collar professions, and significantly higher than the rate for the general population. 62.1% of people with IT jobs are married, as are 56.5% of scientists and 65.5% of engineers. This compares well to people in legal professions (62.0%), medical jobs (61.3%), and finance (62.4%). 51% of the adult U.S. population was married as of the 2010 census. Tech workers do have a slightly higher percentage of people who have never married — 26.7% of IT workers and 31.9% of scientists — but they also have slightly fewer divorces.
Engineers FTW! (Score:3)
65.5%! We win!
Re:Engineers FTW! (Score:5, Funny)
I guess... if marriage is 'winning'.
[Fuck Beta] Re: Engineers FTW! (Score:3)
/ Not married.
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You realize that getting married means you get to pay MORE in taxes, right?
Nope. Dropped my taxes.
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Because if you both make around the same amount, stock up on lube. And by "around the same amount", well, during a bout of unemployment a few years ago, with my SO making six figures and me "making" $350 a week as a waste of flesh, we STILL would have lost money if we had filed as married.
Though in fairness, we own a house together, which makes a big difference - She can c
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And by "around the same amount", well, during a bout of unemployment a few years ago, with my SO making six figures and me "making" $350 a week as a waste of flesh, we STILL would have lost money if we had filed as married.
That sounds implausible. Aside from the different standard deductions, She'd have been in the 28% bracket singly, or 25% bracket married. It wasn't until my wife made more than 50% of what I did where it kicked in being cheaper to be single than married. But then, much of "our" things were in only one name, so we didn't have much wiggle room in assigning deductions and such.
The first year I was married, I paid less than 10% federal income tax, and less than 20% total tax (including all state and local t
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You realize that getting married means you get to pay MORE in taxes, right?
Nope. Dropped my taxes.
I have three kids. I haven't paid taxes in 9 years. The year we bought our house we actually got a refund of $12,000 from all the tax credits we qualified for.
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Your income tax drops. However you tend to buy more stuff, so you are paying more in sales tax.
The biggest problem with money when you get married, is that your partner will have different things that they like to splurge on and things that they are willing to do without.
You may want to go see the new movie, while she thinks spending money on movies are too much money. While you can go without that new Apple Product while for her it is a must have. Normally what happens is you see the Movie and Get the Ap
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Absolutely backwards, the "marriage penalty" is a carefully crafted lie. The fact is, a childless married couple pays less than a widow with a child who earns the same amount of money. Yeah, if all three of those adults earn the same amount of money the married couple will pay almost twice as much in taxes, but that's because they're earning twice as much.
I guess YMMV in other parts of the world, but in the US singles are taxed at a higher rate.
A curious game (Score:2)
The only way to win is not to play.
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I guess... if marriage is 'winning'.
It is for me. 21 years and counting. Very happy.
Re:Engineers FTW! (Score:5, Funny)
I'm an engineer - And I'm married for the second time! Do I count double?
Re:Engineers FTW! (Score:5, Funny)
No. 2 demerits for not learning from your first mistake.
Re:Engineers FTW! (Score:5, Funny)
Bah, like all engineers, he was going for empirical evidence instead of a theoretical model. ;-)
Re:Engineers FTW! (Score:4, Funny)
Well, having worked with a lot of theorists, the theoretical model is, while nice and mathematically correct, generally shit in the real world. Have a look at how many people do step tests on PID loops. Oh... I think I just realised why I am single... Shit...
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Spouse 2.0. Old bugs fixed, but new bugs discovered.
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Spouse 2.0. Old bugs fixed, but new bugs discovered.
And 2.0 is missing features and compatibility that were present 1.0.
(2.0 won't do anal.)
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No. 2 demerits for not learning from your first mistake.
Learn from that? Sure, finding the mean with one test case is easy. But do you have any idea how wide the error bars are???
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Maybe he was smart enough to mount a scratch monkey the first time around. (Double entendres _not_ intentional!)
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I'm an engineer - And I'm married for the second time!
That makes you an exception. Divorce rates vary widely [lexfridman.com] by profession. In America, 50% of marriages end in divorce. For engineers it is only about 10%. Education makes a big difference: college graduates have far lower divorce rates than high school drop outs. It also varies widely with race: 45% of white-white marriages end in divorce. 70% of black-black marriages do. The odds may be against you, because 75% of all second marriages end in divorce, although only 50% of third marriages do.
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This makes me curious to know what the percentage is for interracial marriages.
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I'm in one. White-white lasted ~12 years. White-Asian is ongoing.
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This makes me curious to know what the percentage is for interracial marriages.
White man - black women couples have divorce rates lower than white couples. Black man - white woman marriages have high divorce rates, similar to black couples. White man - Asian woman couples have a divorce rate about 4% higher than white couples. White wife - Asian man couples have high divorce rate.
More info here [wikipedia.org].
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Interesting... so a white engineer marrying a black woman has approximately the lowest chance of divorce of any demographic permutation you could enumerate.
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I think you may need more people in your model—you have Elizabeth Taylor marrying herself at least eight times.
No - I think he's fantasizing about his wife with Liz Taylor.
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I'm an engineer - And I'm married for the second time! Do I count double?
Are you just saying you switched hands?
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I was looking for someone a little more open and liberal. So, I went left.
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US Engineers are older though so it makes sense that more would be married. It is a commonly quoted statistic with the IEEE but perhaps not well known elsewhere that their membership is getting older 1 year per year. The same is not true in China and India.
In other words. (Score:4, Funny)
We are normal human beings like the rest of the world.
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No, it only means the normal people have invaded our territory. GET OFF MY (unix-y) LAWN..
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Or the fact that we are working in an area that is in Demmand right now and we are not getting laid off so rapidly. So we are not stressing our families with unpredictable income.
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"pessimizing"
Computer Geeks? (Score:5, Informative)
the rate for tech workers to be similar to that of other white-collar professions
So that's "tech workers", not computer geeks. Even if you accept the idea that "computer geek" is a meaningful classification, it's no longer the case that only computer geeks work with computers. Tech workers have profiles similar to other white-collar professionals because "tech work' are just white collar professions.
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Great, now I feel even lonelier (Score:5, Insightful)
Just what I needed to read on singles shaming day.
Re:Great, now I feel even lonelier (Score:5, Insightful)
I refer to it as Singles Awareness Day. Or, S.A.D.
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Just remember, tomorrow all the chocolate is half price. You may have to settle for pink and red wrappers, but the self-checkout line means you don't even have to recognize the existence of a cashier when you cart out 50kg of candy-coated milk chocolate.
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For us married peopled, its going through the motions day.
Re:Great, now I feel even lonelier (Score:5, Funny)
So, do whatever everybody else does ... rent porn, order pizza and drink scotch.
Or, is that just me?
I hope my wife is OK with that, because it's probably too late to go looking for flowers. ;-)
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So, do whatever everybody else does ... rent porn, order pizza and drink scotch.
Or, is that just me?
Rent? For the last 10 years or so, maybe it's been just you.
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So, do whatever everybody else does ... rent porn, order pizza and drink scotch.
Yes, but what do you do for special days?
So I'm not alone... (Score:2)
I don't drink alone... (Score:1)
Does the data imply better marriages? (Score:3)
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I guess that in the end "nice guy syndrome" works to our advantage.
Wait... What?! I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
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LOL .. do you read Slashdot at all?
Because I would say most of us are suffering from "asshole syndrome" instead of "nice guy syndrome".
Curmudgeon seems more common than courteous -- and, yes, I am told I mostly fall into the former category.
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LOL .. do you read Slashdot at all?
Because I would say most of us are suffering from "asshole syndrome" instead of "nice guy syndrome".
My original UID was in the 100,000s (I think, I seem to recall being disappointed it wasn't 5 digits). Anyway, the point is... I've read slashdot for a long time and most of the people here seem to fit the nerd stereotype pretty well and seems they still do, as long as you ignore the trolls and flamebait. The heated arguments here are always about data and empirical evidence and formal logic and the like. We don't really get passionate about everyday life, so I was basing my observations of nerds on people
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The heated arguments here are always about data and empirical evidence and formal logic and the like.
As long as the topic isn't politics, or religion, or global warming, or vi vs. emacs, or Microsoft, or Apple, or pretty much everything else, then, yes, you're right.
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An interesting stat (to me) would be average age of: first marriage, first child born, etc. The broad population statistics hide things like this.
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"Nerd" has changed definition. If someone was attractive in the 80s, they were not nerds, no matter how much Star Trek they watched or if they built their own computer from scratch. Ie, you were a nerd not because you watched Star Trek, but because you were a dork. Today things have morphed, and these "techies" really don't know anything about the technology, how it works, how to build their own, etc. But they call themselves nerds and the corporations encourage this, after all the more beautiful people
This doesn't mean they're not loners. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Their crushing loneliness compels them to wife the first woman that gives them a chance.
Loneliness in nerds is usually self-inflicted because we choose to socialize remotely (Iike slashdot). I think the typical nerd doesn't "wife the first woman that gives them the chance", but that, unlike your average Joe, they don't typically pursue relationships that they know wouldn't work out. In other words, it's not just somebody who'll give a geek a chance, but somebody who actually loves them enough not to turn around and divorce them after a year. Maybe that "never married" statistic contains the lo
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Lifetime: 0+, 1, 0, 0+, 0, 1, 0, 0+.
I have to say I felt more alone when married than otherwise.
[John]
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Look closely into the relationships of your M.D. and Lawyer friends (if you don't have any, just be nosy about strangers...)
They have plenty of relationship dysfunction too. Lots of doctors end up married (or committed to a life partner) young, and regret it later. Lawyers are all over the map, but I will say the ones that snag super-model type wives get what they deserve.
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IDK, maybe it's just that I work at a mature company, but all but 1-2 of the tech geeks I know are happily married. Just comparing the marriages of my technical vs ops-type coworkers it's clear that the technical ones have an edge. That's data; for the money, my speculative opinion is that geeks select pretty hard on their relationships, and work hard to make them perfect and take joy in every little thing, as with so many other things in life. It fits with their personality. Second, they don't tend to have
Computer geeks != tech workers (Score:3)
A "computer geek" is a person who specializes in comptuers.
A tech worker is someone who works in the computer field.
Despite them being similar, they aren't the same. For example, call center tech support is filled with tech workers, but given the scripts and stuff they have, they don't have to specialize in the field.
The computer geek accepts computers as a hobby. This is different than a tech worker, as they end up with a general lack of scripts and go directly into the free-form world.
And this is basically stuffing a wide variety of carrers into one "tech worker" category. Programmers may be in a less social environment (although this varies), tech support specialists may be in a social environment while feeling socially isolated, etc.
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imo, if you're in tech, then the tech should be working, not you
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You seem to be confusing "my" "definition" of computer geek with someone who uses a computer. Using a computer as a hobby is different than using a computer as a means for a hobby.
And taking pictures of their overpriced wireless routers to post on MyFace, Spacebook or some other vanity page is on par with showing off a phallic symbol. Most commonly done by fakers.
"Data" is Plural (Score:1)
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"Data say," not "Data says." Unless, of course, you are writing TNG fanfic.
"Data" is treated as a non-quantifiable substance until you specifically quantify the individual points of data (a datum) or a specific collection.
See "money" vs "dollars" vs "moneys".
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"Moneys" (or "monies") is a word only ever used by bureaucratic assholes (but I repeat myself).
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It is accepted (for certain values of accepted, YMMV) to use "data" as a singular word. I see one of the definitions of "data" as a synonym for "information". I'm as much of a grammar pedant as they come, but even I don't say, "data say".
Geek and Nerd (Score:1)
Everyone claims to be a geek or nerd nowadays. Just like everyone thinks they are the smartest one in the room.
Normal distribution fail.
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Just like everyone thinks they are the smartest one in the room. ...and it really annoys those of us who really are!
many computer geeks are not "tech workers" (Score:1)
and many "tech workers" are not computer geeks.
I would agree that most tech workers are not loners, however I think an awful lot of loners are computer geeks. As a loner, I find computers to be a nice a hobby for someone that does not spend much time with other people.
LOL ... (Score:2)
LOL, yeah, that about sums it up.
Now for the real numbers... (Score:2)
First take in this story [slashdot.org].
Perhaps "a 100-person Mechanical Turk study with a $5 research budget" should be done here as well, then define "married" to be engaged in holy matrimony with an actual physical human being (of the opposite, same, or any of the genders defined by Facebook). Perhaps the questionnaire failed to mention "IRL" so they thought WoW counted, too.
Controlling for Age (Score:2)
In 2009, the median age at first marriage was 26 for women and 28 for men. Any job which requires significant education will have a higher average age than the general population, which probably explains the difference in marriage rates. This looks to be a simple average over job categories, which didn't account for that.
Definition of "computer geek" has changed. (Score:4, Interesting)
I think the study might have some merit, but only because the definition of geek has changed a lot.
I got into computers in the early 80s as a very young kid. By the time I really got involved with a "geek" social scene, there was a mix of people. Before that, computers were most definitely nerd toys -- there were very few "typical" folks who gravitated toward them. Even so, I've worked with people who want nothing to do with computers once they are off the clock, people who have a healthy level of hobby involvement with computers, hardcore gamers, and extremely hardcore "computer nerds" -- mom's basement types. The first group are the most likely to be in a stable relationship from my experience. I'm happily married with 2 kiddos, and I put myself in the "healthy level of hobby involvement" camp. It's surprisingly hard to find time to do anything these days with 2 young kids. You certainly won't see me playing video games for 10 hours at a clip anymore...I used to do that back in the day though.
I do have anecdotal evidence from my dealings with "tech workers" that divorces are very common. Lots of people I work with are on Wife #2 or more. I think a lot of that might be the crazy amount of time that work and computer hobbies can suck out of your life -- you really have to be matched up with someone who will either tolerate it or is a "geek" themselves and understands. And like I said, once kids come along, I can see huge problems if you decide to disappear for hours on end and expect your partner to just handle the kids. If you work an IT job for one of the crappier employers out there that demands on-call duty and tons of hours a week, only the shallowest of spouses will stick around and only if you make good money to make up for you not being there.
My other piece of strictly anecdotal evidence is the prevalence of...non-traditional...relationships among the geekier set. One US-born guy I worked with was divorced and constantly trying to bring his girlfriend from China to the US -- no clue how they met. Lots have girlfriends they met online. Others have had obvious mail-order brides. That could sound a little stereotypical, but I've seen LOTS of guy's wives who barely speak English and look like they're pretty much there to cook and clean for them. Maybe I'm just working with the wrong sorts, but that's a very common theme in my experience.
Non-traditionals aside, I think a lot of the evidence the study cites is just because computers are now a normal part of our lives. Anyone can be a Facebook user. Smartphones are designed to be used by non-techies. There are plenty of "IT" jobs that don't involve hardcore coding or systems/analysis work. My job borders on the nerdy side, but only because I make it that way.
I think that if you actually do find the right person, and that person is less of a geek than you are, it balances you out. My wife is incredibly smart, but not obsessed with computers and tinkering the way I am. (She's a finance geek.) If you find someone who's just there for the money or has absolutely no interest in what you do, that's where the divorces and bitterness creep in. I'm almost at 15 years married -- and she hasn't tossed me out yet!
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Who says loners don't get married? (Score:3)
Anyway in the IT group here, everyone that I know of is either in a relationship or married. Included in this group is one of the most unsocial people I've ever met, - at least when it comes to work. But there are folks at the other end of the spectrum too. I picked the word "unsocial" because it isn't like he's rude or actively avoids people. He just doesn't participate in the common sorts of workplace social activities. No lunches. No going out for coffee. No happy hours. Even if it's an official company party, either at the office or someplace else, he won't be there.
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That guy you're talking about could be me. I don't socialize because it's tiring, because (despite being mid-30s and married) I just don't do people well and never have, although I'm not as bad as I once was. I tend to not get social cues and thus make more than my share of awkward situations, so it's easier for everyone just to not.
Would that it were otherwise, sometimes, but here I stand. I can do no other.
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The ski weekend is a perfect example. Unless I can sneak off on my own once in awhile, a weekend in close quarters with a bunch of other people is about all I can handle.
I used to see socializing as eit
Conflating introvert with 'loner' (Score:2)
What about old virgins? (Score:2)
How many are old farts and still virgin like me? I will be like The 40 Years Old Virgin [imdb.com] soon. :P
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How many are old farts and still virgin like me? I will be like The 40 Years Old Virgin [imdb.com] soon. :P
Past that one, 44 years and counting...
I work doing IT support in a school, talking with students and teachers all day though I am definetly an introvert.
I have no problems at social event - will happily go along - I don't need to be talky talky while there though.
I'm incredibly shy when I want to talk relationship questions with a girl. I just can't bring it up, or ask them out...
Not contradictory (Score:2)
I'm married and still a loner. In fact, I'm sitting here on Slashdot while my wife watches the Olympics.
Hypergamy 101 (Score:2)
Women want to marry "up." IT pros tend to make more money than the average schlub.
Therefore a woman, upon discovering that a tolerably attractive man is an IT pro, is more interested than she would be otherwise.
Now obviously the kooks, creeps, freaks, and autistic weirdos are excluded from this, but then they are excluded no matter what they do for a living.
Used to be that women wanted to marry doctors and lawyers. Doctors they still do. Lawyers are toast as there are NO JOBS for law school graduates. P
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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Meh, GF and myself are in out mid 30's (35 for me, 33 for her) and in no hurry what-so-ever to marry. Been together for 7 years.
Marriage is overrated.
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And you attribute this to him not marrying? For what reason?
Marriage isn't a magical, divine thing; it's nothing more than a title. It won't fix bad relationships, and it won't magically make people stay together.
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Now, I don't know if that's what happened to this guy's cousin or not but it's possible he had a very good relationship with one of those girlfriends but she bailed because she wanted to get married and he didn't. Maybe he's better of
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For some people it's just a title, for others it's a major rite of passage.
The latter type of person is what I would call an "idiot." Frankly, you don't want to be involved with magical thinkers to begin with.
Rites of passage are part of the culture and not necessarily religious if that's what you're referring to by "magical thinking". Marriage can be a religious arrangement or not.
So there is a bit more incentive to try and work things out.
If they're unhappy enough to consider divorce as an option, they'll just be unhappy. If they can make up, they would do that anyway.
Not necessarily. I've met people who've considered divorce, decided to stick together and ended up being quite happy. At least one of those couples would have split had they not been married.
Also with marriage often comes children and even more entanglement.
Children have little to do with marriage, but with basic reproductive urges.
Certainly you can have children without marriage but if you think they are strictly the result of reproductive urges then your life experience mu
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There is something between instinct and critical thinking which also drives a lot of our behavior and that is called "culture". You personally may decide through critical thinking that marriage in and of itself has no value. However, the current culture places a lot o
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My uncle has 3 dogs and a tiny patch of grass outside his house. He told a joke once: Why are women like dog turds? They're both easier to pick up when they get older.
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What are "social justice hipsters"?
People who think social justice is important, can't be bothered to understand the issues involved, yet still have a very strong opinion (and look down in scorn on anyone who disagrees).
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Social Justice: The flawed notion that losers and failures are the victims of the adequate and the able and that society must be rearranged to punish the latter and liberate the former from personal responsibility. See Marxism.
Social Justice Hipsters are people who disparage those who make wise and proper choices in life, knowing that with every good turn, the targets of their disdain pull further and further away from people who huff paint, stick needles in their arms, or otherwise engage in behaviors tha
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Marriage brings a tax penalty. Lots of old people shack up because they can't (/won't) afford the tax consequences of legal marriage - and they have plenty of free time on their hands to figure it all out.
There are some legal benefits (insurance coverage, etc.), but mostly it's a losing proposition.
And about the shallow enough to care about financial stability, you are absolutely right, in an ideal life, I would find my life partner - date for a few years, then fall on hard financial times and see what hap
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final
{
But it is your life, so enjoy it and live it any way you like regardless of what anyone else thinks.
}
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