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255 comments

Balls (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301007)

Suck 'em, Trebek.

Re:Balls (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301513)

Present them.

I'd rather suck your balls than use Unity.

Nice to have the choice (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301013)

I didn't like global menus at first, it was different. Then I got used to it. Now I don't think too much about it.
  I suppose it is nice to give the users the ability to choose between the two.
I always thought linux users were not afraid of change and welcomed the new. Sometimes I think some linux users are a bunch of luddites with strong
right wing conservative leanings. Who would have thought.

Re:Nice to have the choice (5, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | about 5 months ago | (#46301067)

Linux users like what they want. That might not conform to whatever your personal preferences are or what's trendy. That doesn't make Linux users "luddites". It makes them something other than mindless drones.

Beyond that, going out of your way to try and copy that other marginal player in the industry us just retarded. You will pretty much ensure that less saavy users are alienated by something that seeks to be annoyingly different for it's own sake.

You think Linux users are luddites? We're not even close to that compared to the bulk of the potential users out there.

Re:Nice to have the choice (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301219)

Exactly. Ubuntu is rapidly becoming the (first, I might add) MySpace of Linux Distributions, flailing around in desperation at its likely-shrinking userbase.

It's funny that you mention that the bulk of the potential users out there are luddites. My grandma, for one, is a big luddite and not only does she cling to XP, but she lets me fuck her in her colostomy bag. Yep, that's right, I've fucked her not only in her colostomy bag, but her "orifice tube." if you know what I mean. It sounds like strangling a gaggle of unfrozen Otter Pops, but god damn is it hot, if not messy!

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Nice to have the choice (2)

andrewa (18630) | about 5 months ago | (#46301471)

That escalated quickly....

Re:Nice to have the choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301303)

I suppose I should qualify the luddite comment. It is just the constant bashing that Ubuntu has gotten for making the change in the first place. Granted, this helped Mint it seems, what with the popularity of Cinnamon and Mate. I tried both, but really, I just didn't like the experience.
While I really enjoyed Gnome 2 I have to say that I don't miss it. I have work to do. I no longer have time to just tinker endlessly with my desktop.
Trust me, I played for hours and at the time it was fun. Not so much any more.
I just want it to work. Unity does that for me. Maybe not for you and that is fine. But what I am shooting for is this sense of outrage that Ubuntu could dare do what they did. They changed the interface! Oh my gawd! It is endless stream of bitterness and anger. Really? With all of the other choices for desktops that are available we have to have all this hate? Just move on to something else.
No one forces you to use it. So I don't quite get the piss and vinegar.

Re:Nice to have the choice (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301821)

Trust me, I played for hours and at the time it was fun. Not so much any more.

(emphasis mine; not as OT as it looks.)

I started on Linux in 1994 - Slackware, wasn't it? I had to port nearly everything from SunOS or HP-UX or AIX or Irix, or whatever. It was fun working with it, and fun watching it grow.

But eventually I got tired of constantly having to futz with everything to make it work. It was not unlike having to tune up your car every time you went for a drive around the block, and having to replace the engine and tires every time you wanted to drive across town to see grandma. Anyhow it gets tiring when it's getting in the way of doing your day job.

Then we get some of the silliness from Ubuntu trying to shove a new way down everyones' throat - new way isn't bad or good, it's the shoving-down-my-throat that I'm not so fond of. Reminds me of some of our favorite empires - MS,Oracle, ...

Re:Nice to have the choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301389)

That doesn't make Linux users "luddites". It makes them something other than mindless drones.

Actually while some people advocate for change for the sake of change there are just as many willing to stick their heads in the sand and say "everything's fine, don't change anything" which is part of the reason so many Linux systems look so dated and are so user unfriendly. You are just one side of the same coin arguing with the other.

Re:Nice to have the choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301465)

[...]so many Linux systems look so dated and are so user unfriendly.

..or maybe they still work fine yet don't fit your personal aesthetic. If someone can come up with a compelling and well-reasoned argument for some UI change I'm happy to hear them out and consider implementing their ideas, but the o.v.e.r.w.h.e.l.m.i.n.g.l.y vast majority of ideas I hear are the digital version of "keeping up with the Jonses".

There's been a disturbing trend in tech lately to sacrifice even the most basic functionality in favor of "fresh", glitzy interfaces, a trend I certainly won't miss when it has passed. I think we're all familiar with one very obvious example, you may very well be looking at it right now... I'm all for software or gadgets looking good, or even completely different from earlier versions of the same basic idea, as long as it doesn't sacrifice basic functionality or usability for aesthetic reasons.

Re:Nice to have the choice (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301667)

..or maybe they still work fine yet don't fit your personal aesthetic.

They probably do work fine but the problem is that "work fine" is usually just "works whatever way you are already used to" and that leads to systems that are not user friendly, of course the inverse of that is also often true. Remember going from command line to GUI? From physical keyboard to touch keyboard? The original systems still have their place which is why it is nice that they still exist so you can choose to use them (command line in ubuntu for example or desktop in windows 8) but there are always groups who will resist change because they dont see a benefit in even having the option to use the new way even if they never use it.

There's been a disturbing trend in tech lately to sacrifice even the most basic functionality in favor of "fresh", glitzy interfaces, a trend I certainly won't miss when it has passed. I think we're all familiar with one very obvious example, you may very well be looking at it right now...

iOS 7? Yes actually and while that is a change for the sake of change it got rid of a lot of pointless elements while adding a few gimmicky animations and such, yes it was a change to a "fresh" and slightly more glitzy interface but overall I prefer it to the earlier versions even though naturally the change did take some getting used to and was less efficient initially because it was different as is the way with all change.

I'm all for software or gadgets looking good, or even completely different from earlier versions of the same basic idea, as long as it doesn't sacrifice basic functionality or usability for aesthetic reasons.

Thats why I like that windows 8.1 got rid of all that glass crap everywhere and i dont really touch any metro stuff since none of the applications i use have metro versions and i have always used windows in the same way i use my mac so i dont need the start menu on windows or the launchpad on osx. Overall that one was a fairly positive change, only real issue was that search is now the windows key+s rather than just the windows key and a lot of the stuff that was a pain to get to before can now be easily accessed by right-clicking the start button and i sometimes forget that and search instead.

Re:Nice to have the choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301229)

I don't mind new things.
Between the interface/menu crap and Canonical going big brother on us, I decided to try something new.

I've moved on to Mint LMDE.
My only regret is that I didn't try it sooner.

Re:Nice to have the choice (4, Insightful)

epyT-R (613989) | about 5 months ago | (#46301263)

Yes, because anyone who questions your viewpoint and politics is obviously an ignorant luddite. ..and liberals wonder why others perceive them as arrogant, totalitarian, histrionic, narcissists. Tolerance and diversity only applies to their own viewpoints and protected castes, I guess.

Global menus work ok for small desktops (1024x768 tops), but with huge desktops that have multiple windows side by side, having to select the window and move the mouse to the top of the screen to use the menu for it is a pain.

Intelligent users like configurations that work for their workflows. When they are obviously changed out just for change's sake, they become irritated. This applies to any platform. Change for change's sake has become a fad in the last 5-6 years, and it's driving people nuts.

Re:Nice to have the choice (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301423)

--Yes, because anyone who questions your viewpoint and politics is obviously an ignorant luddite. ..and liberals wonder why others perceive ---- them as arrogant, totalitarian, histrionic, narcissists. Tolerance and diversity only applies to their own viewpoints and protected castes, I guess.

Really? What kind of ass are you? Maybe I should not have used the word luddite. Maybe I should have just said people that are resistant to change.
Is that better? Your attitude is rude and over the top. I can only think that you are some kind of troll. Or someone that easily takes offense. Grow up pal. Things change. You may not like it or agree with it but that is too bad.
If you do not like the interface, than do not use it. Is it that hard?
How do you know that the changes were 'obviously' made just for the sake of change? Really? Is it possible Shuttleworth has a different view than you? It is his money and time, props to him for thinking outside of the box. If he succeeds or fails remains to be seen, but that is the risk he is willing to take.
Once again, no one is forcing you to use it. Use something else. Ubuntu/Canonical/Shuttleworth owe you nothing. You do not like it? Move on.
How hard is that?

Re:Nice to have the choice (2, Troll)

epyT-R (613989) | about 5 months ago | (#46301805)

haha, MY attitude was rude? I suggest you reread your post. I simply responded in kind. Yes, of course, you should always assume people who disagree with you are trolls. That way, in your own mind at least, you won't have to face whatever challenges were brought against your views. While it denies you the chance to learn something new, at least you can stay in that nice self-absorbed realm of petty narcissistic solipsism. You do realize this attitude lives up to that negative liberal stereotype I mentioned?

It's quite easy to tell the difference between useful innovation and when someone kills needed/useful functionality to hop on a bandwagon. Grafting tablet interfaces onto desktop systems is definitely an example of the latter. The change brought about all kinds of grief for people who actually do more with their computers than use them as facebook terminals. You shouldn't hate them so much for their attitudes, because they're the ones who make the content for you to consume on your tablets (or tablet-interface addled computers).

He's welcome to have a different view and do what he wants with his company/money. Only spineless fairies like you would rush to silence criticism of yourself or others, in order to avoid feeling bad (or having others feel bad), truth be damned. This is that special snowflake syndrome that is dissolving the spine of western culture. To hell with that. I do use something else, but, I have a right to state my views, too. I realize this right offend people like you who can't handle criticism, but that's not my problem. Of course, that's why you elect politicians who'd love to stamp out free speech, right? To make it my problem, and make up for the fact your arguments are without merit?

Re:Nice to have the choice (0, Offtopic)

ralphbecket (225429) | about 5 months ago | (#46301761)

I think I've broken the Slashdot code! 'Insightful' must mean, 'agrees with my prejudices'.

Re:Nice to have the choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301815)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/07/31/ms_ballmer_linux_is_communism/

Linux is becoming the new Microsoft Windows... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301287)

Linux is losing it's nix feel more and more, moving towards methodologies of complete bastardization following Microsoft foot steps. I suspect in the next three to five years, Linux will not even resemble anything nix at it's core file structure. BSD is looking more and more attractive.

Global menus? (1)

ArchieBunker (132337) | about 5 months ago | (#46301353)

You mean like the old versions of MacOS? What are these Linux people smoking?

OLD? Stupid crap still on 10.7 (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301549)

Why Apple has made the perfect UI, how could you not love the best design for DJs and Photoshoppers? There are about 10 things wrong with OSX and they are all random design crap Jobs picked -
Global menus,
Single mouse click,
Left window controls (yay for all the left handed and left eye dominant people, boo for the other 95% of the world)
Launchpad (how is the start menu missing causing a revolt and launchpad even exist? Launchpad is the initial SIN!)
Finder layout straight out of system commander circa 1988.
Crap loads of docked icons you never use be default.
A separate contact and calendar app....
General iOS crap
Hardwired application dependency locations (the whole point of application folders is to stop that!)
Scroll bars that disappear even if your mouse is near them and appear at the bottoms of pages OVERTOP content.
I could go on and complain about the apps, but lets say OSX is great for people who use a computer like they use iOS and leave it at that....

Re:OLD? Stupid crap still on 10.7 (5, Informative)

Xenex (97062) | about 5 months ago | (#46301833)

Global menus

Mac OS has been like this since System 1. And it makes sense; whatever you're doing, its menu is going to be in the same place. Fitts' law indicates that the most quickly accessed targets on any computer display are the four corners of the screen [asktog.com] .

Single mouse click

Mac OS has supported multiple mouse buttons for at least 16 years. Even when using a now-extinct one button mouse, control-click presented a dialogue box.

Left window controls (yay for all the left handed and left eye dominant people, boo for the other 95% of the world)

Because it's easier to move a mouse up/left with your right hand, and was developed in a country that reads left-to-right.

Launchpad (how is the start menu missing causing a revolt and launchpad even exist? Launchpad is the initial SIN!)

The start menu missing is causing a revolt because Microsoft removed something and replaced it with an abomination. Launchpad - and other questionable features like Dashboard - can be completely ignored.

Finder layout straight out of system commander circa 1988.

Column view in Finder is optional, with icon and list view still available. Also, Finder has had its sorting options greatly improved throughout OS X's history.

Crap loads of docked icons you never use be default.

If you go and buy a Mac today, this is in the Dock:
- Finder: File management
- Launchpad: Access to all apps not in the Dock (And easily ignored, as previously discussed)
- Safari: A web browser
- Mail: Email client
- Contacts: An address book
- Calendar: A calendar
- Notes: Short notes
- Maps: A map of the entire planet
- Messages: Text messaging and IM
- FaceTime: Video chat
- Photo Booth: Something fun to play with on your new computer
- iPhoto: Something to talk to your camera
- Pages: Word processing
- Numbers: Spreadsheets
- Keynote: Presentations
- iTunes: Play and purchase music and TV/movies
- iBooks: Read and purchase books
- App Store: Install and purchase software
- System Preferences: Change settings on your computer

The default Dock icons cover managing your computer, using the big two features of the Internet, syncing 'organisational' information with your phone, finding locations, messaging and video chatting with other people, photography, writing, processing numbers, creating presentations, watching media, reading, and installing an app to do anything else you want your computer to do. The default Dock is a slam-dunk for covering what the majority of people use computers for, points users in the right direction to add new capabilities to the computer, and is easily customised to remove the things you don't want. (Launchpad, again...)

The Dock is setup perfectly for you to get started with your computer. Anything else you need to get to can either be accessed through Spotlight (power users) or Launchpad (for people with more experience with iOS).

A separate contact and calendar app....

Just like iOS... but also NeXTSTEP; they have always been separate apps, which makes finding what are ultimately different tasks easier *and* they also seamlessly share the same databases behind the scenes.

General iOS crap

Integration with touchpads is great. Removing always-visible scrollbars removes needless clutter. Things like Launchpad - and pretty much anything else you don't like that reminds you of iOS - are easily disabled or ignored.

Hardwired application dependency locations (the whole point of application folders is to stop that!)

Wait, what? Apps install into /Applications by default, but the system works just fine with app in ~/Applications. Beyond that, moving apps around is making things needlessly complicated for yourself. Even then, the vast majority of apps are self-contained bundles and can be run from anywhere.

Scroll bars that disappear even if your mouse is near them and appear at the bottoms of pages OVERTOP content.

Touched on this in iOS; the scroll bars appear when moving the cursor or scrolling content. If you find this to be an issue, it can be disabled in System Preferences. Yes, Apple provided sensible options!

I could go on and complain about the apps, but lets say OSX is great for people who use a computer like they use iOS and leave it at that....

It's a mature system with 13 years of refinement, and is built for use on 'real' computers. iOS features have only gone "back to the Mac" since 10.7, and even then - as previously discussed - are all avoidable if found that unpalatable. OS X is also bundled with apps that over most use cases for a personal computer, and installing developer tools is simply a matter of typing 'Xcode' into the App Store.

OS X is the current gold standard in desktop operating systems. It's incredibly well thought out, and that's why Canonical, GNOME, and others keep looking to it for guidance. However, it was foolish for Ubuntu to unexpectedly drop application menus for global menus after nine years without presenting an option to switch back. And that's the difference between OS X and Ubuntu; Apple wouldn't make such a ridiculous and far-reaching change to the system without either an option to disable it or an incredibly good rationalisation.

Re:Nice to have the choice (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301397)

I don't think users have a problem with innovation or new things... they have a problem with being bound with an interface NOT DESIGNED FOR DESKTOP COMPUTERS.

Unity = Metro = Crap (on desktop)

Re:Nice to have the choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301535)

Let me add something...

Next step for MS and Canonical would be giving their users an operating system that shows audiovisuals without letting the user do almost anything... oh wait, that already exists and it's called television.

Windows 9 ---> Windows TV
Ubuntu 14.10 ---> Ubuntv

Re: Nice to have the choice (1)

Rutulian (171771) | about 5 months ago | (#46301573)

why do you think Unity was not designed for desktop computers? been using it on one for almost 2 yrs...

Re: Nice to have the choice (1)

Culture20 (968837) | about 5 months ago | (#46301681)

why do you think Unity was not designed for desktop computers?

Same reason why I think Thief 3 wasn't designed for desktop computers. Because it wasn't.

Re: Nice to have the choice (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301733)

Oh, I can use it and Metro too... that doesn't make it designed to work efficiently on desktop computers.

Let me see
Gnome/KDE/Windows Start Menu
1 or 2 clicks to see almost everything thats installed on the system
2 or 3 clicks to run one of those applications

Unity
Searching, typing, filtering, trying to ignore ads and knowing what you're looking for... 14327942 clicks and keys pressed.
Ubuntu was supposed to be user friendly for those who wanted to leave Windows, Unity is plain stupid for application management. Even Metro is better and I really hate it. I was considering using Ubuntu again (the last one I used was 9.04 and didn't pay much attention to its development after that) but after looking at 13.10 I wiped it after 25 minutes... 5 minutes wtf-ing about the interface, 5 minutes looking for the installed applications and 15 min trying to give it a chance while being creeped out by the ads... no thanks, it is a dangerous OS for the average user.

Menu's (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301023)

Menu is.
The xxx belonging to menu.

Choose which you meant.

Like it matters? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301027)

I did not realize people still use Ubuntu.

Re:Like it matters? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301041)

I did not realize people still use Ubuntu.

The situation must be dire if Ubuntu backtracks. At least they have a little of sense left in them lest they see all their users migrate to Mint.
Unfortunately the other project know as Gnome is carried on by fucktards who have no sense left in them.

Re:Like it matters? (1)

manu0601 (2221348) | about 5 months ago | (#46301055)

What do you suggest instead?

Re:Like it matters? (2)

jedidiah (1196) | about 5 months ago | (#46301095)

Mint. Debian. Fedora.

HELL. Those morons at Canonical just decided they will refuse to support video decode support in libre drivers because of 8M of "bloat". Unf*ckingbelievable.

Way to kick multi-media users in the balls there Mark.

Re:Like it matters? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301129)

Agreed. Debian, Mint LMDE, Suse.

Re:Like it matters? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301117)

Windows 8. By far the best OS.

Re:Like it matters? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301201)

Windows 8 is second only to Windows 8.1.

Re:Like it matters? (0)

rubycodez (864176) | about 5 months ago | (#46301235)

and third only to Vista

Re:Like it matters? (1)

epyT-R (613989) | about 5 months ago | (#46301291)

Not if you like low latency mouse input in games and desktop applications without hacks, functional file managers, program menus, and a lack of widgets that belong on tablets.

Quit mucking with the UI (1, Insightful)

Animats (122034) | about 5 months ago | (#46301035)

I can live with them or without them, but they need to pick one way to do it and stick with that.

Why? (1)

misterpontificator (3085227) | about 5 months ago | (#46301069)

Is there any compelling reason for them to "stick" with something? Having the choice is a positive good. Unity's lack of options is what drove me away from it.

Re:Why? (5, Insightful)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | about 5 months ago | (#46301177)

Is there any compelling reason for them to "stick" with something? Having the choice is a positive good. Unity's lack of options is what drove me away from it.

Muscle memory. There is nothing more significant to a good user interface than being friendly to developing muscle memory. Everything else is secondary. Once you develop muscle memory, you don't care much what it looks like because you don't look at it. If you can't develop muscle memory, you won't ever enjoy using the device.

That's why the many devices that are pure touch screen driven suck. They demand your constant attention like a mewling infant. The push to add hot spots and gestures and voice to all these touch screen devices is driven by this truth.

Why? (2)

misterpontificator (3085227) | about 5 months ago | (#46301205)

Agreed, but this is an opt-in. I'll develop muscle memory when I have a UI configured to my tastes rather than rewire my sinews to a forced interface.

Re:Why? (2, Informative)

Ol Olsoc (1175323) | about 5 months ago | (#46301289)

Is there any compelling reason for them to "stick" with something? Having the choice is a positive good. Unity's lack of options is what drove me away from it.

Muscle memory. There is nothing more significant to a good user interface than being friendly to developing muscle memory. Everything else is secondary. Once you develop muscle memory, you don't care much what it looks like because you don't look at it. If you can't develop muscle memory, you won't ever enjoy using the device.

That's why the many devices that are pure touch screen driven suck. They demand your constant attention like a mewling infant. The push to add hot spots and gestures and voice to all these touch screen devices is driven by this truth.

THIS! As a person who uses and supports OSX, Windows in various flavors, and Linux, I feel that I can at least make an informed analysis.

I have to do a lot of switching back and forth between various OS's, and trying to develop Muscle memory for Windows 8 has proven to be like trying to swim in Jell-O ® Even on a touch screen laptop, which allows it to "work" better, but is probably worse for power users.

Ubuntu had turned into a similarly awful product.

So we'll see. For myself I've gone to Mint 15, and don't regret it at all.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301641)

Sounds like the reason why I give up Linux so often. I'm extremely quick with Windows 7 (when I have to be), to the point where I don't have to think - my brain wants an action to be performed, the fingers take over automatically. But when I try to use the latest linux distro or whatever, the lack of familiarity with the interface (even basic shit like Ubuntu moving all the window buttons to the left) throws me out completely.

I can relearn if necessary, but given this is still a Windows world where I use Windows 7 at work and absolutely no-one uses Linux on the desktop (everyone at work's given up on that pointless endeavor and focus on making useful shit instead of OS wars), I eventually go back to Windows because it's not worth the effort to adjust the muscle memory to a failed desktop system.

Re:Why? (3, Informative)

plover (150551) | about 5 months ago | (#46301347)

Changing the user interface is absolutely no different than changing the interface to a class, and the same design principles apply for similar reasons. The Open Closed Principle (OCP) states that a class should be open to extension, but closed to modifications. User interfaces are no different. They should be able to extend it to add new features, but they should never change the existing interface to provide for backward compatibility. The reasons are identical, as well: if you don't change it, nobody else has to change in order to keep using it.

The only valid reason you should change the interface is that you should remove the old interface if it was no longer needed because the tasks it did are no longer used. Clearly, that's not the case here - people still need to search, organize, locate and execute programs. Changing the UI was a completely counterproductive action, and never had any way to actually add benefit. Offering an additional UI for people who wanted a new UI would be a perfectly appropriate approach, yet they failed to implement that way.

Instead, they poorly copied Microsoft's actions with Windows 8 and Metro, which was itself a poorly done copy of iOS's interface, with the added insult of requiring gestures even on a mouse-based machine! Apple themselves then made a shit-poor decision to change the UI for iOS 7. Unity fell somewhere in the middle of this mess, believing that "change is good because Apple and Microsoft were doing it." So they violated the OCP, and pissed off as many users as they could. That's even a bigger mistake for them, because Unity users are far less locked into the choice of Canonical than a Microsoft or Apple user.

All in all, Ubuntu has made bad decision after bad decision once they started down the path with Unity. And they don't seem to understand this is a failure at every level; instead, they blame the users for being whiny luddites incapable of dealing with change. They're wrong about that, because I can indeed change, and it looks like Mint or Kali will be my next distro instead of the next version of 'stammering shuttleworth' or whatever childish name they're assigning to it.

Re:Why? (1)

EvanED (569694) | about 5 months ago | (#46301697)

...ith the added insult of requiring gestures even on a mouse-based machine!

I've been using Windows 8 for quite some time, and without commenting on my overall opinion, I have never once done anything that I would consider a "gesture."

Re:Why? (5, Informative)

jd2112 (1535857) | about 5 months ago | (#46301829)

...ith the added insult of requiring gestures even on a mouse-based machine!

I've been using Windows 8 for quite some time, and without commenting on my overall opinion, I have never once done anything that I would consider a "gesture."

There is a certain gesture popular with Windows 8 users that is very commonly directed towards Microsoft, particularly before they find out about start menu replacements.

Re:Quit mucking with the UI (5, Informative)

moschner (3003611) | about 5 months ago | (#46301107)

Well it seems like in 14.04 global menus are the default, and the local menus are an option in the “Appearance” section of the Unity Control Center. That seems like a fair compromise.

Re:Quit mucking with the UI (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301305)

twm, baby! Built into X windows since before most Slashdotters were born!!! Simple, lightweight, and it always works!

Re:Quit mucking with the UI (2)

ZosX (517789) | about 5 months ago | (#46301419)

Goddamn right! I hate to say it, but I refuse to use ubuntu anymore because it seems like every new release is a total clusterfuck of new half finished ideas. I never liked gnome all that much, but even going back to version 2 would seem like an improvement at this point. Linux devs need to work together and produce a consistent UI, but no lets instead have different flavors of X and a million different desktop environments. Because that's so much better. Could you imagine how polished the UI would be if you combined all these teams competing to get to the same place? Go ahead. Cue all the fanboys that tell me choice is better.

Re:Quit mucking with the UI (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301627)

If only there were, like some chief executive who could make these decisions and decide what was best for everyone.

Ubuntu: Brought to you by Amazon (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301631)

Yeah, but does it have Amazon(TM) everywhere?

Re:Quit mucking with the UI (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301703)

I can't live....with or without them

Re: Quit mucking with the UI (1)

AvitarX (172628) | about 5 months ago | (#46301795)

I hate how they moved the window buttons (for windicators, where are they? I actually liked the idea), then went to unity, where the start an application was adjacent to the close maximized window button. I closed windows by accident so many times, I feel like in some version(s) of unity the start button was in the launcher, just below close window, and the corner was close window, so a slight overshoot, and bam!.

Hooray (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301039)

It drove me batty with the global menu. I want to to shrink this window. No sorry you are not on the correct active window. Try again. *groan*

Focus follows mouse (4, Interesting)

sunderland56 (621843) | about 5 months ago | (#46301045)

As a big fan of focus-follows-mouse, this will finally make Ubuntu at least *usable*, if not pretty. FFM is in direct odds with global menus.

Bonus points if they label the configuration settings "be like a Mac" and "be like every other computer on the planet". Maybe this signals the end of the continual macification of Unity?

It is more compatible than you think (3, Interesting)

zakkudo (2638939) | about 5 months ago | (#46301381)

FFM is not actually fundimentally incompatible with focus-follows-mouse. Gnome 3 works around it by providing an option called 'focus-change-on-pointer-rest'. It works extremely well on a trackpad because you general lift your finger once the pointer is over a window. With a mouse, it gives a slight lag because your hand isn't as steady.

Why does this work well with global menus? Because when you use global menus, you throw the pointer to the top of the screen, using fits law.

The reason I use FFM to begin with is because I hate having to aim and make sure I hit a tiny widget or make sure I don't accidentally click a link on a webpage when trying to give focus to the window. Having menubars in windows is an extension of that problem. I would probably care less if mouse motion was actually one-to-one, but it isn't.

TOO LATE. I'm gone. Seeya. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301047)

So long and thanks for all the fish, sucker.

Too much change harms (4, Insightful)

manu0601 (2221348) | about 5 months ago | (#46301049)

A good property of UI is to remain stable so that user can get used to it. It would be nice if they could stop changing stuff on every release.

Option is the key (1)

misterpontificator (3085227) | about 5 months ago | (#46301083)

This is an "opt-in" if you will - not a direct change.

Re:Option is the key (3, Informative)

sunderland56 (621843) | about 5 months ago | (#46301225)

The change *to* global menus was a few releases back, and was forced on everyone; it was not opt-in. This allows people to revert to the original, sensible behaviour.

Re:Option is the key (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301293)

Actually it has always been possible to revert to the old behaviour. This is something different again.

Re:Too much change harms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301311)

A good property of UI is to remain stable so that user can get used to it. It would be nice if they could stop changing stuff on every release.

It would be even nicer if they would stop "fixing" things that are not broken. Ubuntu used to be the top distro on distrowatch.org; immediately after Ubuntu forced the switch to Unity, Linux Mint became the top distro. Coincidence? No, I think not.

People with really large screens had to move the mouse cursor a lot farther with the global menus. And the way Ubuntu did them was ugly.

I don't like global menus on Mac OS X, I don't like them on Unity, so I'm happy to hear this news.

I wasn't happy with the forced switch of the window decorators to the upper-left instead of the formerly standard upper-right. This was done to prepare for "windicators", but then "windicators" never happened.

http://askubuntu.com/questions/58466/what-is-the-current-status-of-windicators [askubuntu.com]

Re:Too much change harms (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about 5 months ago | (#46301457)

hah that's classic "hands on" management.

demand devs to make way for a feature even you (management) has no fucking clue about how it would work(but still insist on fucking up some other feature in preparation for it).

Re:Too much change harms (1)

CryptDemon (1772622) | about 5 months ago | (#46301321)

I wish Google, Facebook, and every other web company would learn this.

Their answer (1)

ArchieBunker (132337) | about 5 months ago | (#46301357)

If you don't like it, change it yourself!

Re:Too much change harms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301399)

Somebody needs to teach Microsoft that lesson. Every new release of Windows introduces change that's largely unnecessary. Windows 8 just took the approach, added spiky bits and razor blades and shouted "here, catch!". And don't get me started about the fecking ribbon in Microsoft Office -- there's a couple of decades of relative consistency tossed out the window.

Different programs do different things. (1)

EzInKy (115248) | about 5 months ago | (#46301065)

When I launch a program, preferebly from a menu, I expect the program to offer a menu that provides a way for the program to accomplish the things that I want to do. Sure most will need to open a file, edit that file, and close that file, but some need to simply display that files data while others need to provide a way to change that files content. And yes, there are nealy infinite amounts of variations of just how users need to manipulate a file. A universally consistent and simple system that encompasses all the possible things that a person might what to do to data is simply not possible.

Stephen King found dead (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301105)

I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi writer Stephen King was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details, except they found Slashdot Beta open on his computer screen nearby. I'm sure everyone in the Slashington audience will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

As if Midnight Commander was broken! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301119)

Seriously...

I jumped ship too (3, Informative)

jones_supa (887896) | about 5 months ago | (#46301135)

I've been mostly fine with the UX of Unity, but it really is a damn laggy and slow desktop, and also buggy as heck. I thought Canonical had the resources to set things straight but the quality assurance is just horrible. The Fedora KDE spin is my current happy place in Linux world.

Re:I jumped ship too (1)

aphelion_rock (575206) | about 5 months ago | (#46301203)

Me too,
I found by the time it had got to version 12, it was so slow and buggy, particularly in the browser area that it made windows XP look good. The lack of menus was also a major issue for because I cannot remember the name of apps, particularly one that I have yet to use.

Re:I jumped ship too (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301231)

> damn laggy and slow

As long as they invest all of their developer energy into projects driven by the Apple-haters, they're never going to make progress. I think they've spent more time spouting "fuck Jobs" than they have developing. Their hatred has simply destroyed their project. They don't exist to write software any longer. They only exist to worship Microsoft.

Re:I jumped ship too (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301251)

They do. They just keep on hiring shit for brains "UX designers" and others. I admire them wanting to try new thing, I just cannot fathom how they can get it as wrong as Windows 8.

This just in... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301195)

Ubuntu backtracking with 14.04, Microsoft backtracking with "Windows 9".... It's as though suddenly this ridiculous small-form-factor bubble has burst. And about goddamn time.

Re:This just in... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301379)

What was once old is new again. Hooray for innovation!

Work nice on netbook (1, Informative)

denisbergeron (197036) | about 5 months ago | (#46301217)

But, when you use a real computer with multiple programs/windows it's anoying to switch from one another app to perform act like transfering content from Writer and Calc.

Merge window buttons and menu bar? (3, Interesting)

Richard_J_N (631241) | about 5 months ago | (#46301279)

I've never understood why we can't get the window-manager and the application to play nice, and share one bar. Usually, there's plenty of space horizontally, and too little vertically. So, why not have the combination of:
[icon] File Edit View History Bookmarks Tools Help ....... "The window title goes here" ....... _ [] X

Re:Merge window buttons and menu bar? (2)

Bill Dimm (463823) | about 5 months ago | (#46301477)

If you click the title bar to move the window around, the area you have to hit would be smaller (must avoid menus) and would vary from one application to another due to differing number of menus. I don't know if that's the "official" reason; it's just a hypothesis.

Re:Merge window buttons and menu bar? (1)

pipedwho (1174327) | about 5 months ago | (#46301597)

You could still drag on the window title, and if collapsed, drag on the icon. If that's too small for some people, they could always include an option where dragging on the menu bar text would drag the window.

Re:Merge window buttons and menu bar? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301647)

Or you could do the sensible thing and learn to alt-drag anywhere on the window to move/resize it, and then you don't need a titlebar or icon for that purpose at all. Frankly, it feels like going back to the stone ages when I'm in a basic windowed DE without this feature, like I'm missing an arm.

Re:Merge window buttons and menu bar? (1)

Bill Dimm (463823) | about 5 months ago | (#46301797)

That's the way I do it, actually, but it's not very discoverable for new users, so it's probably best to not assume they'll do it that way.

Re:Merge window buttons and menu bar? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301837)

Did you even read TFA? ("No, this is Slashdot.")

Look at the screen shots in the fine article. Maybe even watch the YouTube video. They are doing something similar to what you describe, but of course with the close buttons and such on the left side instead of the right. The screenshot shows:

x [] _ File Edit View Search Terminal Help

But of course they are doing the "autohide" thing. Just as current Unity, the menus share the same space as the window title, and when you move the cursor over the title it fades out and the menus appear. The "autohide" is not optional.

Meanwhile I am still using MATE on Linux Mint, so I don't care what Ubuntu does.

Oh thank god (3, Interesting)

CryptDemon (1772622) | about 5 months ago | (#46301297)

I've been okay with the dash and the side bar look of new ubuntu. It's mostly been the same for me. I switch between different desktops all the time, so I'm not particularly attached to any one or the other as long as it doesn't really impede my workflow. What I hate and still can't get used to is the global menu. I accidentally close out of so many applications because I don't realize I'm actually focused in another window. It annoys the piss out of me, and takes away the concept of the window. The window is it's own little self contained world. Menus for that window should be with that window. I still can't get used to clicking for focus on a window, and then dragging my mouse all the way back up to the top of the screen to get a menu for a window. It really only works well for a full maximized applications.

Re:Oh thank god (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301727)

I still can't get used to clicking for focus on a window, and then dragging my mouse all the way back up to the top of the screen to get a menu for a window.

I guess you just need to use mac OSX for awhile. It's been that way for years here. :)
My guess is ubuntu's gnome is copying that from apple.

It still has Unity (5, Insightful)

koan (80826) | about 5 months ago | (#46301325)

So the rest of the menu complaints are irrelevant.

Maybe... (1)

s3cr3to (2822665) | about 5 months ago | (#46301377)

Maybe this can help Ubuntu to recover some of Us that fled away because of Unity and global menu. Okay, Im using 12.04; but I have some fresh Arch Linux waiting to take over this f*cked Acer all in one that have a crappy uefi-BIOS. --

Luxury of Ignorance (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301391)

Eric Raymond wrote a wonderful essay on why open source GUI's often suck so much: Canonical was violating *all* of his guidelines when they cloned Win8^H^H^H re-invented the GUI. Check out this old essay to see how some things stay the same in the world of bad interfaces:

                                  http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/cups-horror.html

FTFY (2)

s3cr3to (2822665) | about 5 months ago | (#46301405)

Re:FTFY (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301451)

I have to take issue with this part of that article:

If the designers were half-smart about UI issues (like, say, Windows programmers) they'd probe the local network neighborhood and omit the impossible entries.

I've worked at companies where "scanning the network" might well get you fired (well, probably not the first time, but you'd be track and warned after all our pagers went off notifying us someone was portscanning things). Not always a good idea. And, well, when you work in a company with a 10.x subnet, scanning potentially millions of IP's might not be very practical - vs. your average home network on a 192.x subnet of 256 addresses.

Re:FTFY (1)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | about 5 months ago | (#46301741)

The link is to Eric Raymond's "The Luxury of Ignorance: A CUPS Horror Story". It's just what I I point people to when they deal with Windows 8, the new Ubuntu interface, Gnome 3, and the new Fedora installer. Its follow up article, "The Luxury of Ignorance: Part Deux" is at:

          http://www.catb.org/esr/writin... [catb.org]

The followup shows that the authors of CUPS, much like Mark Shuttleworth in his first responses to the nearly universal dislike for the new Ubuntu interface, showed the same response as CUPS authors made to Eric's complaints. I'm also afraid that the built-in CUPS configuration tool as not improved in any appreciable way since Eric's original essay. Fortunately, many OS developers have written their own and far superior wrappers for configuring CUPS. But such technically sophisticated but incomplete and ignorant of basic workflow tools still abound. Cleaning up after the chaos they leave when they overwrite hand-edited system configurations and disable critical features actually pays a considerable amount of my wages.

Ubuntu Beta (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301453)

Ubuntu is like Slashdot Beta but I give them points for trying to bring users back...

Apostrophe's For Sale! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301469)

Extra apostrophe's! Use 'em for plural's!

Choice is good, so are global menus (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301485)

I'm very glad that users will have a choice. I'm sticking with Unity and Global Menus. I love them.

One happy user... (1)

s3cr3to (2822665) | about 5 months ago | (#46301555)

One happy user... ...Millions minus one to go.
Go Mark, go!

Too many menu's. (1)

Balthisar (649688) | about 5 months ago | (#46301521)

All of these menu's are driving me crazy. I's don't need so many menu's. You's should all's agree with me.

I miss the craftsmanship of professional journalists sometimes, and if not the journalists, then at least their attentive copy editors who know basic English pluralization rules.

There are some good reasons for global menu bar (1, Informative)

Strider- (39683) | about 5 months ago | (#46301591)

There actually are some good reasons for going with a global menu bar. When developing the original interface for the Mac, Apple studied the various options for the menus in depth. What they found is that when the menus are at the top of the screen, they are significantly faster to access, as they have infinite depth, thus you do not have to be anywhere near as accurate in your pointing to access them. In effect, you only need to have to worry about the left-right position of the cursor, as you can just fling it to the top of the screen and not be precise in that dimension. If the menu bar is attached to the window, you have to position the the cursor in both dimensions. The ultimate of this is the screen corners, which is also the reason for the Apple Menu being up there. This is a subtle effect, but is backed up by some good hard data.

Re:There are some good reasons for global menu bar (2)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301635)

Fascinating, fascinating. And they did these tests on 2048x1536 dual-monitor setups, you say? Impressive research. Definitely relevant to modern users.

Re:There are some good reasons for global menu bar (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46301659)

Yes but the original Mac had a 9inch screen. With 24" screens, the top menu bar at top of the screen can be a *long* way away from where the window is. For example, when I'm looking at a small bottom-right-hand corner window (1/4 screen area), the menu bar is nowhere near where I'm looking, whereas if the menus are at the top of the window itself they are.

I don't mind top menu bars in principle (except I tend to forget to look there :-), but they're simply too far away on big display. It seems like there should be some principle on visual context/locality that applies here ...

Linux is not apple (Thanks God) (1)

s3cr3to (2822665) | about 5 months ago | (#46301689)

Apple is not Linux, We are not apple... (we are Devo), why care about apple's study? Their research is FOR Their products, PC/laptop aren't apple, Linux is not apple(Thanks God!), what works with apple can or cannot work for others.

In southpark some can eat with their ass, but not the rest of us (I don't want to try it, btw).

Re:There are some good reasons for global menu bar (3, Insightful)

organgtool (966989) | about 5 months ago | (#46301693)

And yet it is a terrible violation of Fitt's Law, especially on large high-res monitors and multi-monitor setups. Not to mention that accessing the menu of a non-focused app requires dragging the mouse over to that window or dock icon to click for focus and then dragging the mouse all the way up to the menu bar and then back down to the window to resume work. I should install a mouse-odometer app on my Mac and my Linux box just to see how much extra movement Mac OS requires. After years of working with all three major OSes, Mac OS has quickly become one of my least favorite.

There's something called fluxbox (1)

invictusvoyd (3546069) | about 5 months ago | (#46301645)

Fluxbox with keybindngs makes life much easier. Linux was never about the androids and the unity's ... It was about reconfiguring the meal no matter what is served . And in rare cases cooking your own meal . (LFS etc. )
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