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Riecoin: A Cryptocurrency With a Scientific Proof of Work

timothy posted about 7 months ago | from the slashcoin-is-only-weeks-away dept.

Bitcoin 156

An anonymous reader writes "Enter decentralized, open source mining with the first scientific proof of work. Riecoin is a decentralized (p2p), open source digital currency. Proof of work is about finding Hardy-Littlewood k-tuples. Ultimately miners are verifying the Riemann hypothesis. Unlike for Primecoin the probability of accepting a false positive goes to zero as the network grows. Primecoin uses Fermat Test which runs the risk of accepting so called Carmichael numbers. Riecoin uses a stronger test to ensure correctness."

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How much are they worth? (2)

rossdee (243626) | about 7 months ago | (#46312209)

In real money

Re:How much are they worth? (1, Troll)

jones_supa (887896) | about 7 months ago | (#46312215)

Follow @bitcoinprice [twitter.com] .

Re:How much are they worth? (2, Funny)

jones_supa (887896) | about 7 months ago | (#46312223)

Wrong coin, dumbass. Still cool link tho.

Re:How much are they worth? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312347)

You should talk to a psychologist.

Re:How much are they worth? (-1, Offtopic)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | about 7 months ago | (#46312755)

Erm, I guess you meant she should talk to a psychopath?

Re:How much are they worth? (5, Insightful)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46312379)

"How much are they worth? In real money"

See, this is a big problem that many people don't understand: the difference between "worth" (or "value") and price. They are not the same things, and that is what has ruined Bitcoin.

Economically, the intrinsic value of something is approximately: the cost of production + the cost of distribution. Bitcoin was intended to be basically free to distribute. So the intrinsic worth should be approximately the cost of production. (Plus a tiny bit... it's not exact.)

The reason this is called the "value", is because if the price goes much higher than this, more people will start producing them because there's good profit to be had. If the price drops below that point, people will stop producing them because there's no profit to be had. Make sense?

Unfortunately, today's stock market all too often ignores value and goes by price alone. That is how bubbles form: the price of something gets outrageously inflated, completely aside from any value. When actual supply-and-demand rear their heads, and the commodity is suddenly associated with that value again, as it eventually must... everybody who bought at that inflated price lose a lot of money.

This all comes down to one basic point: the current stock market is often irrational, because it has gotten to a point where it completely ignores actual value of something and goes by price alone. This is irrational and leads to all kinds of problems.

So, keep in mind: if you invest in a cryptocurrency (or anything else, for that matter) at a price that is far above it's "intrinsic value", be careful. You might make money if you know what you're doing, but you could also become the victim of the bubble and lose your shorts at any time.

Re:How much are they worth? (4, Informative)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46312413)

I neglected to mention one important step:

"... more people will start producing them because there's good profit to be had." ... And THAT makes the price come back down toward the "intrinsic value", because of supply and demand.

And this is only true because of Bitcoin's dual nature: it is not just a currency, like fiat dollars, but also a commodity that can be produced at home.

Which is why I say the market for Bitcoin is completely irrational. There is no economic reason for it to bounce all over the place. Investors are being stupid.

Re:How much are they worth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46314029)

It doesn't matter how many people try to produce bitcoin: the same amount get created. The supply rate never changes and that is a key part of the Bitcoin design. Because of this, the dollar cost of creating a bitcoin has never been all that far away from the dollar price on exchanges.

Re:How much are they worth? (1)

7-Vodka (195504) | about 7 months ago | (#46314425)

Except in the case of bitcoin, the intrinsic value is zero.

Nobody wants a bitcoin for it's own sake, everyone wants bitcoin because of what you can buy with it.

Real things have intrinsic values. Money has intrinsic value. Currencies don't. Bitcoin is a currency. Dollar is a currency. All paper moneys are currencies.

Proof-of-Wasted-Work vs. Useful Work (3, Interesting)

billstewart (78916) | about 7 months ago | (#46314763)

Most of the proof-of-work systems out there are really demanding that you waste some amount of money, time, or both, to prevent people from just generating arbitrarily high numbers of coins (as opposed to the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy use of leaves as coins.) Bitcoin number-crunching is purely wasteful potlatching. Dogecoin is such wow, so calculation!

At least this one is doing a kind of work that's potentially valuable to the world, assuming the system collects all of it in a way that can be used to contribute to mathematical knowledge. (Yeah, yeah, this is /., and I'm commenting on the article without reading it :-) There may be other kinds of calculations that are both useful and verifiable out there. Unfortunately, protein folding and most other non-mathematical real-world applications probably aren't easily verifiable except by having N people redo the same calculation, which is a problem for currencies that need to prevent double-spending. (I ran Folding@Home for a while, as well as the GIMPS Mersenne Prime Search. For SETI@Home, which for some years was a far larger supercomputer than anything on the Top-500 list, sure, you can contend that there really aren't aliens in the chunk of sky your system was testing, but that's not the kind of verification we're looking for...)

Re:How much are they worth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312421)

Economically, the intrinsic value of something is approximately

Nothing has intrinsic value. Individuals decide how much value things have for themselves.

Re:How much are they worth? (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46312485)

"Nothing has intrinsic value. Individuals decide how much value things have for themselves."

Go read just about any current textbook on macroeconomics. Then get back to me.

The concept of "intrinsic value" is central to the whole idea of "supply and demand". In a free market, it works. We have a couple of thousand years of history to prove it.

Re:How much are they worth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312743)

Something is wrong with this line of reasoning. Things do not become less valuable because they are easier to produce. Water has no less worth in a freshwater lake than in the desert. It seems like you are confusing "production costs" with "consumer value."

Re:How much are they worth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313727)

Water has no less worth in a freshwater lake than in the desert

It absolutely is worth less in a freshwater lake than in the desert. At this point I think you're using a different definition of "worth", but worth is generally considered to be context-dependent and is quantified in relation to something of widely-understood worth. If you denominate value in units of freshwater drops, then I guess water is worth the same everywhere. But typically we try to denominate worth in units of a common currency, and clearly freshwater is worth more money in a desert.

That said, I agree that Jane Q. Public's distinction between Worth/Value and Price is a bit broken, or at least, one-sided. Generally, in economics things are considered more valuable to the consumer than their price. It's true nearly by definition -- otherwise the consumer keeps their money because the money is worth more (barring "lemon" purchases and the like). The difference is the so-called consumer surplus. However it is usually less valuable than the price to the producer, who is like the freshwater lake in this scenario, with a bounty of products that they'd rather sell than keep. True, typically barring special circumstances like loss-leaders and disposing of unpopular or obsolete inventory, the value the the producer still has to be at least the cost of production. But you can't really bar those circumstances -- obsolete inventory happens, and then the value to the company and the price may dip less than the cost of production.

Value is context-dependent. Gay men, for instance, likely place very little value on birth control pills.

Re:How much are they worth? (2)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | about 7 months ago | (#46312749)

Sorry Misses,
While your first post made sense, this doeas not. In fact it contradicts your first post.

The concept of "intrinsic value" is central to the whole idea of "supply and demand".

Certainly not. What has the "intrinsic value" of a fresh baked bread (it can be eaten) to do with its value? Or what has the "intrinsic value" of a piece of coal (which can be burned, and thats it) to do with supply and demand on coal and hence its price?

Perhaps you want to define "intrinsic value" of a good as the cost of the source materials plus labour to transform it into the good in question. But that is not related to supply and demand, neither to the raw materials nor to the good itself nor to the demand for work (or supply of it) or their costs.

Prices are defined by one single thing: how much can I make the customer to pay for it (and considering my own production capabilities where is the balance point for the best price), see iPhones.

Most prices in the world are defined on a take it or leave it base.

Sure two gas stations from two different oil companies, like Shell and BP (oh did not one of them just buy the other one?), compete with each other. But all people demand oil/gasoline. Their demand does not change at all, regardless of price. There is no real competition.

The same for Mc donalds or Burger King ... there is no real competition. Some people want to eat junk food, they are to stupid to see they can get real food around the corner (even cheaper). What does that mean? The supplier defines its market. The market is 'just there', the demand adjusts to the suppliers abilities to form that market.

Back to iPhone again. 50% (or more) of its owners simply phone with it. (Includes me, I send some text messages - 5 to 10 a month, and I hated sending SMS/text messages with my ordinary phone) It has no intrinsic value at all. Supply and demand does not define its price, the price is defined by how much Apple can get away with. There is no market or competition, because either people want a very cheap smart phone, or if they want an expensive one, and in the later case their determination for an Android (or god beware for a Windows one) or an iPhone is already settled. Sure, if they settle for Android they perhaps have the choice and competition between 2 or 3 high priced smart phones, and if they settle for a low priced one they have the competition of a few dozen brands. However: the markt is completely controlled by the market droids, there is no "supply and demand" driven price ... and no intrinsic value to any of the phones involved (or companies).

And the idea to read a book about macro economics is so 1870ths ... sorry there is no point in it. As we meanwhile live in a 'globalized' world trade and market situation.

Using the term: 'read something about macro economics, and then come back to me' is a form of the anti pattern Intellectual Violence. Read up about it, then come back to me ;)

Re:How much are they worth? (2, Interesting)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46313081)

"Using the term: 'read something about macro economics, and then come back to me' is a form of the anti pattern Intellectual Violence. Read up about it, then come back to me ;)"

Baldly stating

"Nothing has intrinsic value."

as GP did, to an explanation of intrinsic value is also "intellectual violence". Why should I not reply in kind? I reserve the right to defend myself from verbal violence, using verbal violence myself if necessary.

Speaking of which, you demonstrate the same kind of behavior by making argumentative but unsubstantive comments like:

"Certainly not. What has the "intrinsic value" of a fresh baked bread (it can be eaten) to do with its value? Or what has the 'intrinsic value' of a piece of coal (which can be burned, and thats it) to do with supply and demand on coal and hence its price?"

Amusing. You ask me to explain something I've already explained. So please tell me which this is: trolling, or just a failure to understand? If it is failure to understand, then it's fine. If not, then it's just another example of the kind of "violence" you mentioned.

A subjective concept of "value" to a consumer or end-user has nothing to do with intrinsic value. They are two completely different things. Intrinsic value is a specific and clearly-defined economic concept. It is a number that can be precisely calculated. If, of course, you have the relevant information about costs and so on.

If you want to know what it has to do with supply and demand, please see my replies to others above.

"Supply and demand does not define its price, the price is defined by how much Apple can get away with."

That's because it's not a free market. Only one company makes iPhones.

On the other hand, it's still not a total monopoly because if Apple charged too much, people would just buy an Android phone, or an Ubuntu phone, or a Firefox phone. In fact, many people have... leaving Apple with far less than half the market now.

So... nice try, but arguing that supply-and-demand doesn't work for a semi-monopoly is pretty much a non-argument.

Re:How much are they worth? (1)

Your.Master (1088569) | about 7 months ago | (#46313865)

Here's one economic definition of intrinsic value:

http://www.investopedia.com/te... [investopedia.com]

1. The actual value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects of the business, in terms of both tangible and intangible factors. This value may or may not be the same as the current market value.

This says something very different from cost of production + cost of distribution, and the fact that it includes "intangible factors" and "perception" belies the notion that it can be precisely calculated.

http://www.businessdictionary.... [businessdictionary.com]

3. Economics: No intrinsic value exists for any good or service except its price (see use value) which is reflection of its demand and supply position and not of any inherent quality.

This one is explicitly refuting the idea that value and price have a disconnect at all. This is basically a "subjective theory of value" being defined here -- "everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it". The same cite has the investopedia definition as definition 7.

Here's the problem: there are multiple "intrinsic theories of value", and there is also the subjective theory of value. You are promoting the "Cost-of-production theory of value" as if it was the universally-accepted "economic definition" of intrinsic value:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V... [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T... [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C... [wikipedia.org]

Note the other theories of intrinsic value linked in wikipedia. Even restricting yourself to intrinsic value theory, I don't think "cost-of-production" is considered the slam-dunk winner of all things. More like an aspect of valuation.

Re:How much are they worth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312797)

No, the free market actually proves the opposite (e.g. art).
The idea of "supply and demand" requires nothing of the sort to work, it's quite agnostic as to the stance you take on value.
So you sir are the one that should get back to the books, instead of stopping after the first few pages of Economics for Dummies (or the latest Krugman's rant book).

Re:How much are they worth? (1, Informative)

elfprince13 (1521333) | about 7 months ago | (#46312837)

Go read just about any current textbook on microeconomics. Then get back to me.

Re:How much are they worth? (1)

Beeftopia (1846720) | about 7 months ago | (#46314287)

Economically, the intrinsic value of something is approximately

Nothing has intrinsic value. Individuals decide how much value things have for themselves.

The concept of "intrinsic value" requires the existence of an "Uber-Evaluator" who dictates that intrinsic value. Because that value can and will be radically different to different people at different times. But no such evaluator exists, so I must agree with the AC comment that nothing has intrinsic value. Items can have radically different values to individuals and markets depending on circumstance.

Item: An artist spends 2000 hours creating a life-sized Salvador-Dali-esque image of Donald Duck in marble. Intrinsic value? Determined by who?
Item: An operational car a family just wants to get rid of. They donate it to a car-reseller charity. Intrinsic value of the car? Determined by who?
Item: 27.5 pound block of gold. Intrinsic value? Determined by who? To a starving Ethiopian child, it's without value.
Item: Side of beef. Intrinsic value? Determined by who? To the starving Ethiopian, extremely high value. To a vegan, no value at all.

The concept of "intrinsic" value is a lot like centrifugal force - it doesn't actually exist, but we have an idea of what you mean: a "typical price" fetched in a "functioning market" in "typical circumstances." Is a bubble market a functioning market? Heck, this year's Nobel Prize in Economics [nobelprize.org] (yeah, I know it's not named that specifically) was awarded to three co-winners. One, Robert Shiller has done extensive work on bubbles. Another, Eugene Fama, denies bubbles even exist!

Re:How much are they worth? (1)

jfengel (409917) | about 7 months ago | (#46312775)

There is honest money to be made in the stock market. Not everything is overvalued all of the time. For most stocks, on most days, the price is a more-or-less reasonable approximation of the present value of the share, from which you can expect a reasonable return of a few percent per year, either from dividends or increased capital. That's a piece of the earnings of actual companies making actual products.

These are not the stocks that attract press, more or less by definition. Figuring out which ones are the best value involves a fair bit of work (and I'm not talking about technical analysis voodoo; I'm talking about reading prospectuses, evaluating products and management and markets, etc). You're unlikely to beat those who do that for a living, but they set a fair price, not an inflated price, and that fair price has a real if unglamorous return (better than your bank will give you, on average, though at considerably higher risk).

You can save yourself a lot of effort by giving it to a professional index fund with a low overhead, which yields even more modest rewards for considerably less work and somewhat more security.

Re:How much are they worth? (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46312863)

"For most stocks, on most days, the price is a more-or-less reasonable approximation of the present value of the share"

I don't disagree. I was saying that bubbles happen when the price becomes completely detached from any kind of realistic valuation.

Re:How much are they worth? (4, Insightful)

hibiki_r (649814) | about 7 months ago | (#46312777)

That idea of value was nice, in the 19th century. While one can come up with a concept of value, that value is not the same for all actors: Value is not really cost of production, but utility. And we also have to consider marginal value: Water is extremely valuable, but we have so much, the marginal value of producing another glass of drinking water is pretty low.

Many things will never be sold for how much they cost to make, because their actual value, their utility, is far lower than the cost of production. And since values and costs of production change over time, it's not difficult to find items for sale for less than the cost of production.

Then we have stocks and bubbles. The price of a stock doesn't just reflect how much it's worth now, but how much it's expected to be worth in the future. This does cover speculation too: There is a utility in holding something if you expect to be able to resell it for more tomorrow. So I'd not say that what people call bubbles has that much to do with being far from fundamentals, but with information being propagated that shows that the current estimate of future value is very different from the current price. If a pharma company is on trials to cure a major kind of cancer, its stock will go up. If the trials are unsuccessful, it might go all the way to zero. But that doesn't mean that there was a bubble. This is especially true with stocks, where, if you really think a price is way too high, a hedge fund can make money shorting it.

So, when calling something a bubble, we have to have some very strong reasons to do so. You could claim that the Efficient Market Hypothesis doesn't hold, even at the weakest of levels, at which point you are very, very far from mainstream economics. You can instead claim that the problem is that the market is being manipulated, and that might be the case with Bitcoin, for instance. Maybe a company is committing major fraud, and most people don't know about it, but you do have insider knowledge. That'd not be much of a bubble, just plain decepcion. You could also claim that there are major amounts of risk baked into the price, so you can expect volatility. Many would argue that the financial crisis, for instance, was really all about the Fed just not making any sense, and not reacting to a sudden increase to the demand of money.

So when it comes to bitcoin, how do you explain the bubble? My favorite is a combination of price manipulation from actors that control way too much bitcoin for a market to be all that efficient, tied to a high amount of variance in possible outcomes. If through something strange, Bitcoin actually happened to become important, then its current price is very low compared to what it should be. If it is not, then the current price is way too high. So what we see is a market that is mostly known by people who are just spending a few dollars hoping to make millions, so for them, it's a lottery ticket. Buying a lottery ticket, hand having it lose, doesn't mean that there was an asset bubble with the tickets, does it? :)

Re:How much are they worth? (2)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46312933)

"That idea of value was nice, in the 19th century. While one can come up with a concept of value, that value is not the same for all actors: Value is not really cost of production, but utility. And we also have to consider marginal value: Water is extremely valuable, but we have so much, the marginal value of producing another glass of drinking water is pretty low."

No, and no.

As I wrote in another reply: "intrinsic value" has a specific meaning. Different schools of economics might call it by different names, but the concept is present in any free-market economics. Without it, supply and demand would not give any kind of rational price signals. Intrinsic value is a clearly defined mathematical concept in economics. What you mean by "value" here is the subjective value of something to a consumer, which is a completely different thing.

Here is why it is an important concept: I produce commodity X. (It doesn't matter whether it's wheat or Bitcoins, the concept is the same.) In order to keep producing X, I must make a profit on it, or I simply won't do it. This is basic human behavior.

In order to make a profit on it, I have to sell it for more than my costs of production + distribution. This is the base amount I have to beat to make a profit.

If I can sell it for a lot more than that amount (which we are calling "intrinsic value"), then a lot more people will start doing it too. Which drives the price back down toward that amount again. If I try to sell it for my costs or less, then I cease to make a profit and I'll stop producing X altogether.

That's why it's called intrinsic value. It's a value that the market naturally drives the price toward. (IF, that is, it's a rational free market.)

But when a commodity starts selling at a price that is completely detached from any rational valuation, you get bubbles. That is what has been happening with bitcoin.

It might satisfy the "value" that a consumer subjectively attaches to it, but in rational markets that price will always gravitate toward the intrinsic value (but never quite reach it). When it doesn't, trouble is on the way.

Re:How much are they worth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313951)

If you called it "cost of goods sold" or "cost of production" you might get a lot less pushback. Right here you have this:

Different schools of economics might call it by different names, but the concept is present in any free-market economics.

I think you've picked an unusual name for it by calling it economic value and implicitly claiming everything else was not economic value, and that's causing these problems because there are tonnes of economic definitions for value, and even for intrinsic value. Also, you even say in a different post that cost is different from value, yet you defined value as a sum of costs, so that's getting confusing too. And also you're pulling in supply and demand, but it has relatively little to do with this definition of value other than the fact that you'll stop producing when the price you can charge dips under the cost of production (actually, you'd probably stop some time before because you can make a better return on a different investment).

I'd have said that an efficient market is expected to eventually drive prices down to a marginal cost, instead of down to the intrinsic value. I say "a" marginal cost rather than "the" marginal cost because economies of scale can potentially be non-linear and allow multiple stablet solutions.

Re:How much are they worth? (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46312999)

I meant to add:

"Water is extremely valuable, but we have so much, the marginal value of producing another glass of drinking water is pretty low."

Again you are confusing subjective "value", or importance, to economic value. It doesn't work that way. This is the point I was originally making: in economic terms, cost, price and value are all very different things. But aside from that, marginal subjective consumer "value" is yet another thing, unrelated to the kind of "value" I was referring to.

Water is cheap precisely because of the effects I already described: the cost of production is extremely low, and there is ample supply. If it cost a lot to "produce" a glass of water, then that glass of water would cost you a lot. It doesn't get much simpler than that. And it has very little to do with the fact that you need water to drink, or like to live near a lake (your subjective consumer value).

But that gets us right back to why the market in Bitcoin has been irrational. If you tried to sell water on the stock market for $50 a liter (WAY more than it cost you to "produce"), nobody would buy it. Ridiculous, right? So why did they do that for Bitcoin? Answer: because they were being irrational.

Sure, some people are making a killing on Bitcoin. But for every one who does, someone else is either losing money, or will lose money.

But all the while, Bitcoins are getting harder and harder to produce (as they were designed to do), which means the "intrinsic value" is increasing, which means the market price price is ever more closely approaching that intrinsic value.

Re: How much are they worth? (2)

tom229 (1640685) | about 7 months ago | (#46312795)

Very good points you bring up. However I'm not sure it applies to currency. For example, the "intrinsic value" of a 100 dollar bill is far below $100, yet it still retains that value.

With a currency, worth gets computed as a factor of total amount of assets and production over supply of the currency. This, of course, assumes that everyone participating accepts that currency as valid. This is what is driving the price of bitcoin at the moment: pure speculation of wide acceptance of it as a valid currency. And if that happens the gdp of the entire world divided by a maximum of 21 million bitcoins is far above it's current comparative value of $600 per coin.

Re: How much are they worth? (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46313015)

"Very good points you bring up. However I'm not sure it applies to currency. For example, the "intrinsic value" of a 100 dollar bill is far below $100, yet it still retains that value. "

Dollars are fiat currency. In economic terms, they have no intrinsic value. In fact that's part of the definition of a fiat currency.

Bitcoins, unlike dollars, are a commodity. You can literally create them at home. That is why they have an intrinsic value, and why economically speaking they are different from dollars.

But the market is treating as though they were the same. In part because a lot of people don't understand that difference.

Re: How much are they worth? (2)

cas2000 (148703) | about 7 months ago | (#46313475)

i could make turd sculptures at home too - that doesn't mean they have any intrinsic value. certainly no more or less than the bitcoins i could make at home.

bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies are the ultimate in fiat currencies - there is no intrinsic value or worth in the fact that some calculation has been performed. proof of worthless work is just as worthless as the work.

they only have any "value" because it's a ponzi scheme of people pretending they have value.

Re:How much are they worth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313487)

"The reason this is called the "value", is because if the price goes much higher than this, more people will start producing them because there's good profit to be had. If the price drops below that point, people will stop producing them because there's no profit to be had. Make sense? "

Amazing that people still rant on and on against bitcoin while not even understanding the basic points.

just stfu (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46314049)

As an obvious liberatard, I suggest you keep your mouth shut about economics.

Seriously, you are obviously completely ignorant on the subject, and don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You're simply regurgitating what you've heard other ignorant liberatards saying because it sounds right to you. And goes along with your naive philosophy which has been shown to be dead wrong by history.

Re:How much are they worth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46314061)

Economically, the intrinsic value of something is approximately: the cost of production + the cost of distribution.
 

This modded insightful shows you how clueless about economics the average /. readers (actually moderators) are.

See further down the thread to see this was explicitly refuted when people quote from actual economic definitions.

But well, /. needs it daily article about Bitcoin to pump it up, so what can we expect? /. is definitely a fertile market based on the cluelessness of its "audience" on anything about finance and economics. Oh yeah, fuck beta.

Re:How much are they worth? (1)

TrollstonButterbeans (2914995) | about 7 months ago | (#46313937)

You have to jump on this opportunity NOW and invest BIG NOW and EARLY and then after the spike you will be laughing all the way to the BANK ---

[RUPTCY]

What we're really going to need ... (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about 7 months ago | (#46312217)

What we're really going to need, and soon, is a program to know what all these *coin currencies are, and maybe some exchanges to change your Xcoins to Ycoins to dollars. Maybe even a consumer report on the issue: "We recommend avoiding FraudCoin as a poor value."

Re:What we're really going to need ... (4, Informative)

NFN_NLN (633283) | about 7 months ago | (#46312271)

What we're really going to need, and soon, is a program to know what all these *coin currencies are, and maybe some exchanges to change your Xcoins to Ycoins to dollars. Maybe even a consumer report on the issue: "We recommend avoiding FraudCoin as a poor value."

https://www.cryptocoincharts.i... [cryptocoincharts.info]

To be honest though FraudCoin was kind of a dead give away just by the name.

Re:What we're really going to need ... (1)

Nemyst (1383049) | about 7 months ago | (#46312275)

I do wonder if we're going to see a massive collapse of all those cryptocurrencies. Currently it seems like every time a currency stops being profitable to mine, another one springs up. This sort of thing won't last.

Re:What we're really going to need ... (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 7 months ago | (#46312355)

There are really only three: Bitcoin, litecoin and 'other.' Brand recognition matters - only those two have managed to achieve any significent value.

Re:What we're really going to need ... (1)

Your.Master (1088569) | about 7 months ago | (#46313957)

Has litecoin really achieved enough to break away from "other"?

Re:What we're really going to need ... (1)

Nemyst (1383049) | about 7 months ago | (#46314503)

I usually see Litecoin and Dogecoin mentioned in the same breath, sometimes with other random cryptocurrencies. I'm not sure Litecoin's done enough to distinguish itself.

Still, there's a lot of people spending a lot of time (and electricity) on extremely volatile and unproven currencies, which could crumble down at any second.

It already exists, it just needs a gateway... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46314395)

www.ripple.com

Fools (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312245)

The inability to intelligently regulate the value of the currency in accordance with the economic needs of the society is a bug, not a feature.

Re:Fools (1)

Bengie (1121981) | about 7 months ago | (#46312277)

It's a feature if it's working as intended.

Re:Fools (1)

ThatAblaze (1723456) | about 7 months ago | (#46312283)

Then why does your bitcoin purse have 100 coins in it?

Re:Fools (4, Funny)

SpankiMonki (3493987) | about 7 months ago | (#46312317)

The inability to intelligently regulate the value of the currency in accordance with the economic needs of the society is a bug, not a feature.

Mod parent up, please! It's a good thing that government issued currencies are intelligently regula....oh wait...

Re: Fools (3, Insightful)

AudioEfex (637163) | about 7 months ago | (#46312585)

The argument that government backed currencies are so faulty is, well, faulty.

Do certain countries have piss poor systems set up that can make their money worthless, overnight? Yup, that's why folks don't invest in them.

The dollar, the euro, etc. may fluctuate, but there are as reasonable safe guards against them going flat as is currently possible that are what make the world go 'round.

Comparing major real-world currencies to "crypto" currency is like comparing a child's pretend store to Wal-mart. Sure, if you convince enough kids that the pretend stuff in your pretend store is worth enough, you can dupe them into giving you their money. You might even make a few bucks before people catch on, and if you have a large enough supply of dumb kids in your neighborhood that fall for it and believe a baggie of dirt you sell them is magic dirt that will someday turn into gold or candy.

But it ends when the real world gets involved - because the real world doesn't buy into your pretend.

Repeatedly solving equations on a computer does not actually do anything valuable. It simply controls the output. But if what is behind the output of nothing is still nothing, it's simply an age old money scam where the new folks pay to get in by "investing" so the early adopters make money, but eventually the pyramid falls when everyone realizes that it's all based on...nothing.

BitCoin "investors" try so hard to make it all "real" and will quote you academic papers and media curiousity stories and "conferences" of folks who get together to debate all this, but it's just because they want folks to keep believing that some type of alternate currency is just going to sprout up over nothing. Nothing backing it, nothing being produced but virtual money that has no true value except to speculators who depend on additional folks speculating to make their pile of nothing have the perception of being something.

It's all rather insane, but it breeds on basic human hopes for wish fulfillment - the wish to get rich quick. I have no doubt BitCoin has made some folks very rich - but those very rich people became rich because they cash out their hauls into real dollars which can then be used in the real world. Cashing out by selling to folks who come in at the bottom of the pyramid.

I said this elsewhere and was pummeled by a bunch of believers - but you cannot pay for any of the necessities or luxuries of life with BitCoin. They retorted about debit cards and BitCoin ATMs - but missed the point, which is that they had to cash out those BitCoins into real world currency to make it useful. Once folks stop buying into the bottom of the pyramid, hoping to get rich, and the jig is up - they are worthless.

In the future, folks will look back at this as a large experiment gone wrong and marvel at how some of the smartest folks got taken in by this. Scams usually prey on the old and weak, yet you have some otherwise brilliant people who fell for this hook, line, and sinker by the lure of getting rich quick out of nothing.

Re: Fools (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312657)

What exactly is backing the $?
What can the US government possibly do if people lose confidence in the dollar?
The only thing they can do is mandate that people use it, but they cannot mandate how much it is worth.
There is nothing backing the $. You can't go to the bank and say I want out, give me the value of this money.
The only thing dollars are worth is dollars and the ability to exchange it for services, just like bitcoin.
The difference is that for bitcoin everyone knows exactly how much of the currency will be in circulation at any point in time, whereas for something like the dollar the government can decide to start cranking out trillions of dollars whenever they want.

Don't get me wrong, I think bitcoin is BS. But not for the reasons you mention.
Btw, if other countries stop accepting $ then you would have to change them to "real" currency too before being able to by all your shit in china.
The difference between bitcoin and $ is that $ is already accepted everywhere.

Re: Fools (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313349)

But in the case of bitcoin the equations you solve on the computer do perform a valuable function. In the case of a normal bank, this function is to store how much money there's in each account, this is done in a centralized system of restricted access to ensure security. Also, there is a central bank which issues money to other banks to hand out in loans... In bitcoin, these things are done by the blockchain (which stores the transaction log, so you can tell how much money each wallet has) and mining blocks (which both, ensures that doing untrustworthy actions is increasingly more difficult every time a block is mined and creates new bitcoins).

Re: Fools (1)

TsuruchiBrian (2731979) | about 7 months ago | (#46314057)

Repeatedly solving equations on a computer does not actually do anything valuable.

What value is done by digging up shiny pieces of metal from the ground?

Re: Fools (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46314173)

Uh you can make useful shit out of metal. Are you deliberately being obtuse?

Re:Fools (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312601)

The funny thing is that the US dollar isn't even regulated by the united states government.
It's regulated by the Federal Reserve, which isn't even a government institution, but just a bunch of rich bankers.

Re:Fools (1)

syockit (1480393) | about 7 months ago | (#46314245)

We all know that government issued currencies are buggy, hence the attempt to come up with these pseudo currencies. But replicating the bug in their new design means they're doing it wrong.

Re:Fools (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 7 months ago | (#46312361)

The problem as I see it is that 'conventional' economics has managed to screw things up so badly that people are desperate for anything that promises an alternative approach avoiding the obvious weaknesses. Even if it clearly introduces new weaknesses.

Re:Fools (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312981)

The value of gold is based on supply and demand and few complain about that.

Re:Fools (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313033)

Yes! So many bit heads get so excited about the idea of digital currency that that all economic reason is left by the wayside.

If we make it we can break it (1)

3seas (184403) | about 7 months ago | (#46312311)

currency only works as well are all those making use of it agree on its value. And as there are always those looking for a free lunch and control that will figure out a way to cheat.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46312453)

"Fiat currency only works as well are all those making use of it agree on its value."

There. FTFY.

Bitcoin is not a fiat currency. It is a commodity. It has an "intrinsic" value, which is not subject to opinion.

Yes, its price has been all over the map. But that's just because of stupid investors. They've been handing the bulk miners the keys to the bank.

Re:If we make it we can break it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312475)

It has an "intrinsic" value, which is not subject to opinion.

"Intrinsic value" is magical thinking to begin with.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46312503)

"Intrinsic value" is magical thinking to begin with."

Then you'd better tell all the economists, because they aren't aware of this.

Without a concept of intrinsic value (even though some schools of economics might call it something else), there can be no such thing as supply and demand. As I say: the name may be different, but without the basic concept of intrinsic value not one of their hallowed economic curves will work.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312923)

"Intrinsic value" is magical thinking to begin with."

Then you'd better tell all the economists, because they aren't aware of this.

That might explain their terrible track record.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

SpankiMonki (3493987) | about 7 months ago | (#46312781)

"Fiat currency only works as well are all those making use of it agree on its value."

There. FTFY. Bitcoin is not a fiat currency. It is a commodity. It has an "intrinsic" value, which is not subject to opinion.

Not sure what bitcoin has to do with GP's post, but since you brought it up...

While a commodity can be used as currency, commodities always have uses outside of their value as currencies. Bitcoin does not share this property. A bitcoin is nothing more than a numerical balance in a distributed triple entry ledger.

But if you can tell me what you can do with a bitcoin other than spend it (transfer the ledger balance from one account to another), I'd be willing to change my mind. :-)

ps - All Money is Fiat Money [forbes.com]

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46313115)

"While a commodity can be used as currency, commodities always have uses outside of their value as currencies."

Always? Well, it's true that gold, when it was both a commodity and a currency, had other uses. But until very recently, from a historical perspective, the only other use it had was art. And even then, it was only valued as art because it was effectively money; other less-expensive substances also had as much shine.

Re:If we make it we can break it (2)

SpankiMonki (3493987) | about 7 months ago | (#46313403)

Always?

Yes!

And even then, it was only valued as art because it was effectively money

No! Gold was valued as a pretty thing/art medium before it came into use as a currency. In fact, all commodity monies [wikipedia.org] arose from physical goods that had other non-currency uses.

Some folks really really want bitcoins to be a commodites because of their ideological disposition, but in reality they're nothing more than bits 'n bytes representing ledger balances.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

TsuruchiBrian (2731979) | about 7 months ago | (#46314543)

I'm not sure why you think "pretty thing/art medium" counts as being useful. I could say that bitcoin is useful to because some people derive pleasure from knowing the answers to useless math problems.

You can make things that are the same color as gold. Why is it important that things actually be made of gold? It is only because it is a status symbol because of it's rarity. Gold's most useful feature is it's rarity. Bitcoins are rare too. Things don't need to be physical to be rare. Maybe everyone will decide not to want bitcoins anymore and they will be worthless. Maybe someday everyone will decide they don't want gold anymore. We don;t need bitcoins or gold. This is in contrast to real commodities like water and food that we can;t one day decide we just don;t really want anymore.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | about 7 months ago | (#46312843)

(* facepalm *)
Ofc, Bitcoin is a fiat currency.
It has no intrinsic value, you can not eat/burn it, use it as a brick to build a house from or as an ingredient to an electronic device or any other real world thing you can take into your hands.
Perhaps you should read up about the term intrinsic.
Heck, without a computer to transfer it for goods or 'real' money it is completely worthless.
Real money as in a piece of a one dollar bill, I at least can trade hand to hand in Morocco for a can of green tee, regardless of its (the dollar bills) intrinsic value. The old german currency DM is still in circulation in east Europe (besides it is completely worthless now) because people there consider it a fiat currency. I guess they just like the colour of the bills, and no: without pulling a lot of strings you can not even exchange it into Euros!
A barrel of oil has an intrinsic value, the dollars it might cost: not. The bitcoins I need to buy the dollars or the barrel have none at all.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 7 months ago | (#46313137)

"It has no intrinsic value, you can not eat/burn it, use it as a brick to build a house from or as an ingredient to an electronic device or any other real world thing you can take into your hands. Perhaps you should read up about the term intrinsic."

And perhaps you should read up on economics, or at least just look up the phrase "intrinsic value" in an economic context.

I'm not saying that out of "intellectual violence", I'm making a genuine suggestion for improving your knowledge of the subject.

And the reason I'm doing so is because you are still getting it wrong. Your subjective ideas of "value" have NOTHING to do with the economic concept of "intrinsic value". The former is ambiguous; people have different subjective ideas of value. The latter is a clearly-defined quantity in the field of economics.

So I'm saying this with the intent to be constructive and helpful, not "violent": go look up intrinsic value. But note that while it is called something else by different schools of free-market economics, every one of them does make use of the concept.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | about 7 months ago | (#46313257)

Intrinsic: in it self.
Intrinsic value: having a value in it self.

Everything that can not be used by the owner for the owners benefit (and probably consumed by using it) has no 'intrinsic value'.

The intrinsic value for a cask full with one million dollars in bills is the value you give it to tapestry your walls or the value you give to it if you burn it in your furnace.

On the other hand the same amount of 'value' in potatoes will feed you a couple of millennia. That is intrinsic value.

Referring to 'books about macro economics' is quite rude, if you not even mention one author/book - preferable with either chapter or page, and it implies you never have read one. Sorry, you are simply to easy to defeat, smart, but uneducated, nice ideas, but no clue. Perhaps you should at your age start up reading? You could make quite history if you would stop wasting your time with bullshitting around and put action where your mouth is.

Re:If we make it we can break it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313657)

You are using the term "intrinsic value" incorrectly. The term you are describing is "instrumental value". You have had the concept explained clearly several times. You are an idiot.

Re:If we make it we can break it (1)

kenshin33 (1694322) | about 7 months ago | (#46313501)

What's intrinsic about the value of any given service/comodity/product?
it depends on the value of somthing else which depends on the value on something else ... etc, it will end up depending on someone's time somewhere costing. what is the intrinsic value of time? yours? mine? the time of the guy sitting in the corner? the miner's? the cop's?

Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (4, Interesting)

spasm (79260) | about 7 months ago | (#46312377)

Can we please have a cryptocurrency that doesn't very rapidly involve burning vast amounts of electricity to perform calculations that have no other purpose than creating the currency? This just seems like a grotesque waste of resources. If there's no way to make a viable cryptocurrency other than performing long calculations, at least find a way to make the calculations have actual utility - incorporate foldingathome into it or something so at least you're curing cancer while generating the currency.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312469)

No. Money is important, more important than any single of the "more important" issues you can think of, because without money, nobody can work on those problems. It is quite OK to put some energy into a working money system. Cash isn't free either. It is printed, distributed to banks, carried by people who go to banks to get cash, received at and collected from businesses, and after a lot more time being moved around by car, eventually destroyed. All the time it is analyzed to make sure it's not counterfeit and guarded in specially built containers by specially trained people. Despite all the energy spent on mining Bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies, they still manage to pay for it all with a smaller percentage for transfers than classic banking. That should give you an idea how expensive money is and how cheap cryptocurrencies are in comparison.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312649)

That's because current energy costs don't adequately reflect negative externalities associated with energy production (e.g. CO2). They're also artificially lowered through energy subsidies.

Putting aside what crypto-currencies already do, you have to admit that it would be ideal if they had the same security with less energy usage.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312927)

Yes, all else equal, lower energy needs would be nice. But distributed currency is a difficult problem, so difficult that most people still don't trust the current contenders at all. Where there's money, there's greed, and keeping greedy people from doing unsavory things takes energy, actual and metaphorical. Energy consumption is a secondary concern. First and foremost, a financial system has to do its job. If cryptocurrencies don't consume more energy as a whole than the classic financial system as a whole (on the same scale, obviously), then I'd question your motives if you pick energy consumption as an argument against crypto currencies.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (1)

Your.Master (1088569) | about 7 months ago | (#46313981)

I'd prefer such a currency if it, as a side effect, solved useful problems, vs. one that does busywork and has no useful side effects. Even if it's only marginally useful.

You make an interesting point vs. the classical financial system, and I'd like to hear more on that. I can't immediately see why, if we all flipped to bitcoin tomorrow, we wouldn't need essentially all the same infrastructure, plus a little bit of new waste. I feel like you think I'm missing something important, and would like to know what it is.

Even so, if we can flip in one step to something where the proof-of-work is actually useful, that would be a wonderful achievement. It leaves a really bad taste when random jackasses who are intentionally wanton are rewarded financially for their waste (see posts years back about people stealing electricity from other places to mine bitcoins back when that was still somewhat feasible).

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (1)

sfcat (872532) | about 7 months ago | (#46314455)

I feel like you think I'm missing something important, and would like to know what it is.

You are, its that Bitcoin is far weirder than you seem to understand. Consider for a second what a Bitcoin is...theoretically it is an international currency (that hopefully will be stable one day) that is inherently deflationary. What does that mean to normal people? That a Bitcoin wallet is a swiss bank account they can carry around and control themselves. This is because the new supply of Bitcoin is constantly decreasing so the price of Bitcoins to other currencies should rise over time. This emulates the interest that savings accounts would usually pay. It can also transfer money internationally in a safe way in 1/1000th the time the banks do it. And it solves all sorts of problems with micro-payments. For instance, a coke machine that takes non-paper money (ie CC, Debt Card, other electronic payment etc) isn't really economically viable without Bitcoin. With Bitcoin you could make a machine with a QR code on the front and when you want a coke you send a small amount of Bitcoin to the wallet indicated by the QR code. Now I know this isn't practical due to the time it takes to verify a Bitcoin transaction but you get the idea. Whoever can shrink that transaction time will get very rich.

2/3rds of the world's people currently don't have a stable local currency in which they can save for the future. So Bitcoin enables anyone with a cell phone to have a Swiss Bank Account that they can convert into the local fiat currency each day to insulate them from hyperinflation. Think about how that might someday change how people in the 3rd world live. For the first time, thinking and planning for the future would be rewarded instead of next year's government deciding that all their savings are actually worthless now.

Now I realize that currently the price of Bitcoin is volatile as hell. I understand that currently its a risky investment plaything of traders. But having a stable pool of traders to stabilize conversion rates to other currencies is necessary requirement for any type of currency. And over time the price should stabilize as more players come to the table. The real worry is that the banks figure out that Bitcoin actually competes with their retail banking business. If they ever figure that out, they'll outlaw Bitcoin in a heartbeat. This is the only real risk to Bitcoin based businesses, traders and economies. Hopefully the powers that be will be asleep at the switch on this one. They were for most other business changes that software brought about. Look at the music industry, 14 years after Napster, they still make a fraction of what they made when Napster was around. And yet they still are filing lawsuits against their own customers.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46312471)

Look up CureCoin.

grid coin. uses boinc (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313027)

grid coin

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | about 7 months ago | (#46313101)

No. Way to miss the point.

The problem with each additional coin is that they aren't bitcoin and thus don't have a userbase, on top of that they never will have if they are tied to a specific project. What is really needed is that the proof of work concept be centralised for the scientific community. That way if you mine bitcoin / curecoin / dogycoin / whatever, you're part of a distributed resource for real projects.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (4, Interesting)

kenshin33 (1694322) | about 7 months ago | (#46312477)

what's wrong with finding primes ?

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (4, Funny)

pjt33 (739471) | about 7 months ago | (#46312599)

Ah, Slashdot at its best: comments by people who haven't even read TFS.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313749)

Ah, Slashdot at its best: comments by people who haven't even read TFS.

Forget TFS, I'd be happy if most people took the time to read TFT rather than working purely from the story icon.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (1)

Cruciform (42896) | about 7 months ago | (#46312787)

Gridcoin. You can mine normally with cgminer, but you also earn coins from your BOINC work. They're currently implementing a feature called scrypt-sleep which will rest your transaction mining so that BOINC apps which utilize GPU will earn work credits that way.
The dev has been working hard on it, and releases updates every day or two for the mining client.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 7 months ago | (#46312919)

Very difficult, really. There are very few problems which meet the technical requirements to use in the mining process, and mining is actually an essential part of how the technology works at a technological level. Just remember that conventional finance is hardly energy-efficient either.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46314025)

Forget mining entirely, mining is a stupid concept only needed for this.

Work Done is a better concept, which is what Mining falls under.
Work Done can still be paid without having to do Mining.
Any job in folding a protein would get you a "foldcoin", which you could exchange for other things as worth grows.
Go from there. SETICoin, PrimeCoin, whatever else. Mining doesn't need to be performed, just calculations that can be verified by multiple parties. (you'd say, give the fold out to at least 3 people or more)
And you'd think, "oh, but now you are cutting productivity of every node by 2/3rds", but really if you were to actually add any sense of incentive to it, considerably more people would actually want to use it, more so because coins for a purpose would likely gain far more momentum.

Mind you, I say this, the only reason buttcoins and the like are even popular is due to people making money off morons that have no clue how basic investing and speculating works. I'm speaking types that buy high and sell low due to panics, people trying to make a quick buck.
Without these people, bitcoins would be a worthless effort to even the most bored geeks, it wouldn't have went anywhere.

Personally I am looking forward to 10 years when more of these coins will actually be reasonably large and the digital currency markets will be more stable so they actually CAN be used for a reasonable amount of online transactions. (If they don't get banned, that is)
As more coins come in to play, they can bounce off each other and the whole market becomes more stable.
It used to be that a simple twitter post could destabilize the entire market and cause panic. Now there are more coins and exchanges, it is considerably more stable and that usually only happens every 5-7 weeks to a small extent, but it is still generally on an upward trend overall.
All these people panic, start selling, and it just causes a landslide of sells, and then come the rebuys as the price lowers. (which usually involves trading lesser coins for them since they actually can be mined still!)

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313363)

whiskey tango foxtrot.... seriously mods? +5 interesting /sigh

So if I'm understanding your complaint.... you are saying using electricity to perform a calculation for a virtual coin is a larger carbon footprint than gathering pulp, processing that pulp and running the press to print paper currency or the mining, smelting & casting physical coins? Or it is the transport of said virtual coins that has a larger carbon footprint than transporting physical currency?

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (2)

spasm (79260) | about 7 months ago | (#46314089)

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (1)

sfcat (872532) | about 7 months ago | (#46314479)

One quick add to that link, they estimate that miners are spending 90% of their mining income on power for their rigs. This ignores ASIC miners where only about 5-10% of the value of the Bitcoins mined gets spent on power (on average, I'm using CA power in the USA so my power rates are probably higher than miners in other parts of the world). Also, ASIC miners are probably 60% miners by hashrate, at least currently and will be more like 95% in the next year. So basically take all the values in that article and divide by 10. Other than that, its pretty accurate. And before you get all hot and bothered about mining again, all the Bitcoin mostly goes to buy the ASIC miners to keep up with the quickly growing mining industry. Take a look at the difficultly charts before buying anything, its a tough business.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (2)

TsuruchiBrian (2731979) | about 7 months ago | (#46314629)

I'm sure most money made from mining gold, goes into buying gold mining equipment... It's kinda lame, but it's not novel.

Re:Time for an ecologically sound cryptocurrency (1)

TsuruchiBrian (2731979) | about 7 months ago | (#46314621)

I thought one of the major selling points of riecoin is that calculating prime numbers *is* useful. To who, and for exactly what, I don't know....

Getting started? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 7 months ago | (#46312637)

I couldn't figure out how to get Dogecoin working either.

Why does every new cryptocurrency assume that you're already familiar with how they work? I don't want to go start mining bitcoins in order to figure out how the software works. Whatever happened to quick start guides?

I'm sure I could figure this stuff out, but I'm already in the middle of three other research projects

Re:Getting started? (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 7 months ago | (#46312737)

If I tell you how to make something worth value with little effort, then you don't have to buy it from me.

The fewer 'miners' (thats a stupid fucking name for the process) the more profit each one can get.

Re:Getting started? (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 7 months ago | (#46312939)

I set up a mining thing to learn how it works too: My objective is to mine the minimum amount of bitcoin needed to achieve a payout on the mining pool. I've had a GPU running for a month now and it's more than half way there. It'll run up a power bill a bit higher than the value of the coin, of course, but I'm not doing it for the profit. Plus I spent a chunk of money on the GPU itsself, on the idea that one day I will think up a use for it.

Re:Getting started? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313503)

I tried mining bitcoins about 2 years ago for 6 months with my somewhat old GPU that was being used for nothing. At the end of 6 months I had mined about 0.05 BTC by the time the damn thing stopped working and I couldn't get it to run again (took a month to get it to work on my gpu the first time)... and that was 2 years ago, BEFORE the value shot way up, and mining became harder.

Re:Getting started? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313423)

Quickstart guides are hard to come by due to the issue that the configuration for starting a miner program on a computer is different for every computer. There is no easy way to set this up.

Re:Getting started? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313649)

They assume you are familiar with Google, and the art of reading.

Cool. (1)

cshark (673578) | about 7 months ago | (#46313297)

Every innovation in crypto is step forward. I'm curious to see if this will be adopted by other currencies.

Ethical energy considerations (1)

spiritplumber (1944222) | about 7 months ago | (#46313333)

This is great. Selling my bitcoins now. (Even if I make a loss, it will be worth it in peace of mind). Any chance we can use this for seti@home, folding@home and stuff like that?

The wonders of eCurrencies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46313667)

This is a perfect example of faux-openness. They talk about how the currency is created using numerous mathematical concepts that I don't understand and don't care to understand.

One gets the distinct impression that the only reason for all this high powered mathematics is to roll out the currency in a sort-of controlled way that cannot be circumvented.

It... it's not like I mined this coin for you! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46314175)

Oh wait, wrong Rie.

Waste products from mining (1)

lazy genes (741633) | about 7 months ago | (#46314515)

Everything new has an 99% chance of being a Ponzi scheme. I heat my home with the waste heat that is produced by mining rigs. I live in a cold climate and the price of propane is skyrocketing. Bitcoin and the altcoins will merge with the banking industry and make it more sustainable. If you mine at night you can use off peak electricity that costs 50% less. Its a win win situation.
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