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Will Peggy the Programmer Be the New Rosie the Riveter?

Soulskill posted about 2 months ago | from the finding-more-talent dept.

Education 333

theodp writes "The Mercury News' Mike Cassidy reports that women are missing out on lucrative careers in computer science. 'The dearth of women in computing,' writes Cassidy, 'has the potential to slow the U.S. economy, which needs more students in the pipeline to feed its need for more programmers. It harms women by excluding them from some of the best jobs in the country. And it damages U.S. companies, which studies show would benefit from more diverse teams.' The promise of better financial results, says Anita Borg Institute Director Denise Gammal, is making diversity a business imperative. It's 'the sort of imperative that cries out for a movement,' argues Cassidy, 'maybe this time one led not by Rosie the Riveter, but by Peggy the Programmer.' So, where will Peggy the Programmer come from? Well, Google is offering $100 to girls attending U.S. public high schools who complete a Codecademy JavaScript course. 'Currently only 12% of computer science graduates are women,' explains Codecademy, 'and great tech companies like Google want to see more smart girls like you enter this awesome profession!' Google joins tech giant-backed Code.org in incentivizing teachers to bring the next generation of girls to the CS table.

But Silicon Valley claims the talent crisis is now (although there are 19 billion reasons to question SV's hiring acumen). So, what about the women who are here now, asks Dr. AnnMaria De Mars. 'If you are overlooking the women who are here now,' De Mars writes, 'what does that tell the girls you are supposedly bringing up to be the next generation of women in tech that you can overlook 15 years from now? Why do we hear about 16-year-old interns far more than women like me? If it is true, as the New York Times says, that in 2001-2 28% of computer science degrees went to women compared to the 10% or so now — where are those women from 12 years ago? It seems to me that when people are looking at minorities or women to develop in their fields, they are much more interested in the hypothetical idea of that cute 11-year-old girl being a computer scientist someday than of that thirty-something competing with them for market share or jobs. If there are venture capitalists or conference organizers or others out there that are sincerely trying to promote women who code, not girls, I've never met any. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but it means that whoever they are seeking out, it isn't people like me.'"

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333 comments

Dangit Peggy (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351121)

Peggy Hill as the spokeswoman. I could get behind that.

Re:Dangit Peggy (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351529)

Next on "Programming with Peggy", I'll show you how awesome it is to nul-terminate a string so you can save one byte. Then as added bonus I'll show you how to take that string from the Internet and call an "eval" function on it. Don't worry, this is much safer than the bleach and ammonia cleaning trick I showed you.

this again ? really (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351165)

well there were not many women doctors not too long ago and now there are quite many. I assume if programming is as attractive as medicine then this will also happen. I know some will say that there is a hostile work environment but do you think most single gender dominated jobs do not. Like being doctors - those impediments will be overcome .

Geez... (5, Insightful)

cayenne8 (626475) | about 2 months ago | (#46351167)

Seriously, what the fuck difference does it make what sex, race or religion you are to be in IT??!?!

If a group isn't interested, they aren't fucking interested. You don't HAVE to have two of every creature in every positon.

Hell, the NBA is really lacking of white college educated women....are we freaking out and trying to induce them with $100 to work to get into the NBA (and god help them if the teams discrimate!!).

Geez, please...get over it..people will do what people want to do.

Re:Geez... (5, Insightful)

firex726 (1188453) | about 2 months ago | (#46351261)

Yea, there was a Ruby workshop I was interested in attending; but seems it was only open to women.
If they felt men as a gender would be disruptive then that should be handled on an individual basis regardless of gender, and even then I find it hard to believe that it'd be a widespread issue.

As it stands, women probably have a far greater opportunity advantage from Diversity Quotas, Gendered Scholarships, and Classes. lsu many of the complaints can be attributed to the female dominated HR field; which has shown that women in HR will not hire other women they consider to be prettier then themselves.

Re:Geez... (0)

kraut (2788) | about 2 months ago | (#46351955)

>Yea, there was a Ruby workshop I was interested in attending; but seems it was only open to women.

There are tons of Ruby workshops. Look at the gender distribution in most of them. 90% male? 95% male? 99?

> If they felt men as a gender would be disruptive then that should be handled on an individual basis regardless of gender,
I have no idea what you meant to say, but what you said does ont make any sense.

> even then I find it hard to believe that it'd be a widespread issue.
If you find the gender imbalance (and some of the nastier aspects of that) in IT not to be a widespread issue, you're either
* wilfully blind
* stupid beyond belief
* incredibly blessed to work in a balanced environment.

> As it stands, women probably have a far greater opportunity advantage from Diversity Quotas, Gendered Scholarships, and Classes
That's an opinion, and you're perfectly entitled to it. But given that we don't have hordes of female junior programmers - it's probably wrong.

Did I say probably? I meant certainly.

> lsu many of the complaints can be attributed to the female dominated HR field;
Oh, yes, it's HR stopping people from hiring all these female programmers because they're too darn pretty! HR can't handle the competition!
Either that, or you don't actually get *any* CVs from women. Ever.

Have you ever been a hiring manager? I've spent 20+ years (*) in IT. I've worked with 4 female developers. Two of which I had to hire as mathematicians (they were, but they could also code).

> which has shown that women in HR will not hire other women they consider to be prettier then themselves.
Citation, please - or did you just make that up on the spot? Logically that would imply the HR department is populated by the ugliest people you can find that are still qualified to do the job. That's not even true in Dilbert/

(*) Look at my user id. And then get the HELL off MY lawn. (**)
(**) Before you get the hell of my lawn, please try and take the time to talk to someone of the female persuasion and ask how they feel in all male meetings, or if that's too tough, just google "programmers being dicks". THEN get the hell of my lanwn.

Re:Geez... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351397)

Seriously, what the fuck difference does it make what sex, race or religion you are to be in IT??!?!

Exactly, it shouldn't matter.

But that does show up as a problem, and no, it's not just a lack of Amish representation.

Which is why efforts are made to remedy that.

If a group isn't interested, they aren't fucking interested. You don't HAVE to have two of every creature in every positon.

Indeed, it's not about arbitrary mechanisms such as that, but rather Noah getting off his ass and making sure that the Unicorn, Dragon, Minotaurs and Cyclopes got on board, not go chase after the Pixie Fairies with a hammer.

Hell, the NBA is really lacking of white college educated women....are we freaking out and trying to induce them with $100 to work to get into the NBA (and god help them if the teams discrimate!!).

The NBA is indeed concerned about its representativeness in a variety of ways. Heck where do you think the WNBA came from?

Geez, please...get over it..people will do what people want to do.

This is a naive view that doesn't recognize how people are influenced by external effects and sometimes there is a reason to want to change things.

Re:Geez... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351459)

You're talking to a 'conservative'. Reason won't work.

Re:Geez... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351401)

Basic psychology and sociology: have you stopped to think why a group isn't interested? Is there a possibility that they do not feel welcome, and thus are better off investing their efforts elsewhere?

"If gay people don't like professional locker rooms, they don't like professional locker rooms. You don't HAVE to have gay people in professional sports."

Re:Geez... (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about 2 months ago | (#46351525)

Why would ANYONE feel welcome? American has a pervasively anti-intellectual culture where salesmen are held in the highest esteem and most technical fields are looked down upon. Law and Medicine are notable exceptions. They are both viewed as glamorous and lucrative occupations.

Perhaps if IT got the Law & Order treatment we would see a sudden influx of female programmers in 10 years time.

This whole media "narrative" about "unwelcoming" IT geeks is just a dressed up version of "Revenge of the Nerds".

Re:Geez... (1)

Anrego (830717) | about 2 months ago | (#46351403)

Agree.

Take down the barriers that unfairly prevent women from entering the job, I'm totally cool with that.

But why do we feel the need to lure people who clearly arn't interested for the sake of balancing the numbers.

Programming is a weird gig, maybe it just doesn't appeal to women for whatever reason. Contrary to what the social progress movement would have us believe, women and men are actually different physically and mentally. We shouldn't discriminate based on that, but we need to accept that on a large scale you will seen trends towards one sex or the other no matter how all-inclusive you make the world.

This is about pay - again. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351471)

Trying to recruit more women is a politically correct way to encourage folks to enter the profession, increasing the supply and subsequently reducing wages.

That's all.

Business NEVER does things for the common good - ever.

And as we see, it's Silicon Valley lamo companies bitching about "shortages" when it because they don't pay enough.

Re:This is about pay - again. (1)

swillden (191260) | about 2 months ago | (#46351695)

Trying to recruit more women is a politically correct way to encourage folks to enter the profession, increasing the supply and subsequently reducing wages.

This article is about Google incenting girls to try programming, Google's issue is not that they're not paying enough, but that they simply can't find the people.

The Google office I work at (Boulder) experiences a near 100% offer acceptance rate. Almost every engineer who interviews and gets an offer takes it, which is a pretty strong indicator that the compensation is fair -- and Boulder is a tech-heavy area, and within the extended Denver metro area, so engineers here have lots of options and salaries in the region are pretty decent. The problem is that the vast majority of the people who interview don't make the cut. AFAIK, the situation is the same at other sites. The company pays plenty well to attract talent... there's just not that much talent to be had. I think most of the big Silicon Valley tech companies are in the same boat.

What you is true some places, of course. There are a lot of companies that pay crap salaries and then wonder why they can't find anyone. But I don't think that's the case with any of the big tech giants.

Re:Geez... (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 2 months ago | (#46351491)

"Seriously, what the fuck difference does it make what sex, race or religion you are to be in IT??!?!"

Whenever I've said the same thing, even more politely, I've been accused of being a bigot.

Regardless, the latter part of OP sounds like just yet another woman blaming the shortage of women in tech on discrimination, when studies have consistently found that is not the cause. I mean, not just one study or two, but many of them over a period of decades.

because it's a hostile environment (2, Insightful)

SuperBanana (662181) | about 2 months ago | (#46351623)

Seriously, what the fuck difference does it make what sex, race or religion you are to be in IT??!?!

It makes a difference when the path to the field, and the field itself, is hostile to non-straight, white, men. Reading through the comments here there's a lot of really angry, hostile, dismissive posts. Which certainly doesn't help counter the argument by TFA.

Hell, the NBA is really lacking of white college educated women....are we freaking out and trying to induce them with $100 to work to get into the NBA (and god help them if the teams discrimate!!).

Aside from the fact that a sports league has nothing to do with IT, when's the last time you watched a WNBA game? Can you name a SINGLE WNBA player playing this season? How about a single hall-of-famer? Can you name your area's WNBA team? When was the last time you even accidentally came up on an WNBA game on TV? (hint: rarely, because they're not televised nearly as often.) Or how about this: why doesn't the NBA sanction both men's and women's leagues, ie, why did the WNBA need to be formed in the first place? Answer: because the NBA refused to allow women's teams.

So, women don't get the same TV coverage, sponsorship, press, etc.

The gender bias in professional sports *is* a huge problem. And it's a problem in scholastic/collegiate areas as well, which is the whole point behind Title 9 - all the money for scholastic and collegiate athletics was going to men's sports.

Re:because it's a hostile environment (1)

RightSaidFred99 (874576) | about 2 months ago | (#46351753)

The gender bias in professional sports *is* a huge problem

Rubbish. Women aren't as good at men in sports. It's as simple as that. It's not the oft-cited "upper body strength" either. It's everything. The more any given "sport" requires strength, speed, agility, power, endurance, or any other physical trait the more men dominate it.

So no, women don't get the same TV coverage, etc.. except in niche cases where basically they are hot. I'll tell you what - if you want equality how about we end all unisex sports. Make it so that women and men must all play in the same field of competition in all sports - let's see how that works out.

Re:Geez... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351777)

Thank you! Somebody with common sense. If the Human is NOT interested, then who cares. Now everybody should be given a fair look into different career paths, BUT their should NOT be such a thing as Women's Day Engineering Seminar Or other BS like that.

Re:Geez... (1)

bsolar (1176767) | about 2 months ago | (#46351977)

Seriously, what the fuck difference does it make what sex, race or religion you are to be in IT??!?!

Well, "talent crisis" usually means "talented workers cost too much, we have to find a cheaper source of them". Women do tend to get lower salaries than men...

How about Norm the nurse? (2)

the_humeister (922869) | about 2 months ago | (#46351191)

Or Frank the pharmacist? These two professions are dominated by women. Perhaps we should make boys more interested in those professions as well somehow.

Re:How about Norm the nurse? (1)

Fwipp (1473271) | about 2 months ago | (#46351239)

Sounds great to me. Why don't you go hop on over to a forum for nurses and pharmacists, and bring it up there?

Todd the Teacher.. (5, Insightful)

thesupraman (179040) | about 2 months ago | (#46351327)

You missed the big one.

Todd the Teacher.

Men have been practically excluded from teaching, by being painted with the sexist assumptions
that they are all child molesters and pedophiles with nothing positive to contribute.

In comparison to this particular problem, an imbalance in programmers is nothing.. bias in the
teaching of our children should be a huge priority, and yet, its not....

Re:Todd the Teacher.. (0, Flamebait)

Fwipp (1473271) | about 2 months ago | (#46351581)

You missed the big one.

Todd the Teacher.

Men have been practically excluded from teaching, by being painted with the sexist assumptions
that they are all child molesters and pedophiles with nothing positive to contribute.

In comparison to this particular problem, an imbalance in programmers is nothing.. bias in the
teaching of our children should be a huge priority, and yet, its not....

Well, maybe you can start by combating the sexist assumptions that women are naturally more nurturing (a story uniquely suited to keeping those pesky women in the home). You can follow up by setting teacher pay to a reasonable level, so that they're competitively compensated for the amount of schooling and long hours that they need to put in.

The patriarchy (I wonder if I'll get modded down for using that word) tells us that women are gentler, weaker creatures more suited for "family" work than men are. Men are taught to assert their masculinity by displaying their power over others, which combined with the narrative of "men can't help raping women," naturally leads us to be suspicious of any man transgressing those gender roles. Because men are coded (by our culture) as inherently sexual beings, we assume their motivations for pursuing a "feminine" job are also sexual - that is, that they must be sexually interested in the children they are supposed to protect.

(I personally don't know anybody who has a problem with male teachers, but I'm going to take you at face value that this is a real problem that you've faced.)

Re:Todd the Teacher.. (1)

Amtrak (2430376) | about 2 months ago | (#46351611)

Damn, why did I go and waste my mod points on an article earlier today. Someone mod this guy up.

Re:How about Norm the nurse? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351331)

Perhaps we should make boys more interested in those professions as well somehow.

Dad was always talking about how great pay is for doctors, but have you looked into being a pharmacist instead?
Perks over being doctor:
You aren't expected to diagnose the ever-growing list of infectious diseases.
You'll never be called on to give a colonoscopy.
Many pharmacists go their entire careers without ever being stopped in the hallway because "that lump on the patient in 208 just burst and is oozing something purple."
Less radiation exposure.

There is however one major drawback to being a pharmacist rather than a doctor. You are expected to be able to read the handwriting of all doctors in the same county as you.

Know the risk, know the rewards, consider a life as a pharmacist today.

(final image of the commercial shows a lone man in a labcoat surrounded by attractive women in labcoats in what is possibly an art-major's idea of what a pharmacy looks like)

Re:How about Norm the nurse? (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | about 2 months ago | (#46351445)

An old joke: what do you call the guy who graduated bottom of his class from med school? A doctor. What do you call the guy one place below him? A pharmacist.

Re:How about Norm the nurse? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351391)

Henry the hooker :)

Oh, and give this stupid topic a rest already for fuck sakes.

Re:How about Norm the nurse? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351545)

Came here to say pretty much this (only it would have been Nick the Nurse).

Though actually, I'm ok with a "Peggy the Programmer" or "Nick the Nurse" to try and get people interested in such fields. But when you start trying to force a gender balance? That's when things have gone too far.

Re: How about Norm the nurse? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351871)

Sally the sanitation worker? Carol the construction worker? Molly the miner? Olivia the oil rigger? Etc etc

Re:How about Norm the nurse? (1)

mooingyak (720677) | about 2 months ago | (#46351913)

I was thinking Tracy the Truck Driver. My not-that-intensive search on gender stats in truck drivers suggest that the field is approx 93% male, which sounds plausible to me. We should push women towards that profession too.

Bob the babysitter (1)

Timmy D Programmer (704067) | about 2 months ago | (#46351969)

Seriously, why do the young men all have to flip burgers, and all the young ladies get to babysit. I don't know about the rest of you but I would have much rather played Legos with a 5 year old than stand behind a fryer all day.

Um, what? (2, Insightful)

s.petry (762400) | about 2 months ago | (#46351233)

"The Mercury News' Mike Cassidy reports that women are missing out on lucrative careers in computer science. 'The dearth of women in computing,' writes Cassidy, 'has the potential to slow the U.S. economy,

No they are not, there is no such thing, and I smell bullshit.

If you make up fairy tales, you can put any ending you want on them. That is what is happening here. Women are not missing out, they are choosing to not do certain things. Let's look at a very good reason for this to be the case.

Programmers tend to work horrible and long hours. Most women are choosing to manage life and work together, and not work 60+ hours a week. That is a choice, and I have no issues with them doing so. I used to work 60+ hours a week, and decided I was missing out on too much living to continue. I'm glad more women refuse to work 60 hour weeks, more men should do the same. Your average company does not reward you for the extra work, they simply take advantage of you for doing it.

This is similar to the myth that women on average make less money than men doing the same work. Sure, there is some of the good'ole boy network that does this intentionally, just like certain places won't hire minorities. Those places are extremely rare, and not "normal". If a man works 50 hours a week and a woman works 40, the man does and should make more money. Women on average choose not to do this for various reasons.

Reality is a real drag when you start to look at it, but it's reality. I don't buy this line of shit because that's what it is. It's a piece of trash intended to increase hostilities toward each other and ignore the bigger issues like corruption.

Get Over it FFS (5, Funny)

BitZtream (692029) | about 2 months ago | (#46351251)

MOST women don't like to code, stop fucking trying to turn them into programming machines. Some do, good for them, let them be great programmers, but for fucks sake stop trying to force women to do shit most of them have no interest in doing. Its not going to get you a girlfriend, you'll still be an asshole.

Re:Get Over it FFS (2, Insightful)

tlhIngan (30335) | about 2 months ago | (#46351717)

MOST women don't like to code, stop fucking trying to turn them into programming machines. Some do, good for them, let them be great programmers, but for fucks sake stop trying to force women to do shit most of them have no interest in doing. Its not going to get you a girlfriend, you'll still be an asshole.

I think the problem isn't attracting women to the field, it's that the field is so full of men who are at best crude with their social skills. To be honest, seeing interactions between developers is quite eye-opening at times. You'd think by their language that they were stereotypical construction workers full to sexist jokes and innuendo, catcalling, and the like.

It's going beyond programmers having poor social skills, it's poor social skills AND being some of the most sexist people on the planet. Heck, in any other workplace, a lot of their behavior would count as sexual harassment.

And perhaps that's the reason why women aren't entering the field - they're entering workplaces that haven't really evolved beyond suffrage, while the rest of the world evolved and modernized. Like programming is the last refuge for manliness.

Re:Get Over it FFS (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351951)

I'm not sure what workplaces you've been in, but I've found the idea that all IT/programmers have "poor social skills" to be a myth.

I'm a small business consultant. The technical shops I work in have some of the most polite and friendly people around, while law offices, medical clinics, HR offices, etc. have some of the worst. As horrible as this will sound, from a purely anecdotal stand point, I've found that the more women an office employs, the more unfriendly that place will be. Female colleagues that I work with have the same opinion as I do.

While I do believe that the stereotype and myth of the "social slob" technician/programmer might keep a lot of women out of the field, I'm more inclined to believe that most simply don't want to do it. Women have not been shy about breaking through the barriers into other fields that they've wanted to work in. Why would they suddenly become shy over IT/programming?

In short, stop parroting the idea that this is a "poor social skills" problem. I've yet to meet any technician that actually lives up to it and I've been doing this for fifteen years.

Silicon Valley?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351255)

But Silicon Valley claims the talent crisis is now

See this from 2012 [usnews.com]. As you can see, SV area isn't on the list for best paying cities for programmers and yet, it's the most expensive.

SV companies are averaging $110,000/year (Source: PayScale) for software engineers. Why should a talented person go there when they can make just as much (or even more) and have less than half of the living expenses?

SV companies pay shit for their area and if you consider the ridiculous hours they expect you to work, you're better off somewhere else.

Finally (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351281)

Was wondering when this topic would finally get some coverage again. It's been at least a week since this important injustice graced the front page.

Well done slashdot, your click bait got me again.

Answer: No (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351283)

"Will Peggy the Programmer Be the New Rosie the Riveter?"

No, but this "We need more women in IT" meme is becoming the new "Schools need more money".

Re:Answer: No (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about 2 months ago | (#46351615)

Not all IT jobs are created equal and the distribution of non-CS grads and women varies. You can't use Silicon Valley as a guide (or startups). Both of those environments are much less forgiving of people without talent or dedication.

There are plenty of jobs for less technical people in Fortune 500 companies where navigating the political quagmire is more important.

Flame Time.. (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351285)

Can we get past the PC nonsense and accept that reality that there are actual differences between the sexes (some due to social environment, some biological), and from that accept that some jobs just aren’t well suited for one sex or the other.

I’m all for providing the opportunity for either sex to do whatever job they want as long as they are capable, and to a certain extend I’m all for breaking down cultures that make the job less appealing to women for reasons unrelated to the job, but beyond that I think we have to accept that there are certain aspects to programming beyond the male dominated culture that are not appealing to a large number of women.

Now here comes the inflammatory part. What might those reasons be? Based on a very limited sample size and keeping in mind that we are talking general case here, there are plenty of exceptions, my best guess is:

- Weird hours. I know it’s not PC to say it, but yes, women tend to be more burdened by their life schedule then men. Sudden "ok everyone has to stay till 2am to get this working" are common in the job, and this can be a major stressor.

- Stress. I believe there’s different types of stress. Some men handle better, some women handle better. The kind of "you need to find a solution to this problem by 8am tomorrow or you might actually get fired/company might go out of business" stress you sometimes find in this job or even the "been pounding my head against this problem for 3 weeks and getting chewed out by management about why I haven’t made any progress" is a very specific kind of stress that (and again, this is a very small sample size) seems to hit women harder then men.

Reading what I just wrote, how the hell is this a "best job in the country". Many women have more common sense and realize that this is actually a shitty job with a lot of stress and crazy hours and a career path consisting of "you're probably fucked when you hit 40".

Bad name (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351291)

I'm all for making programming more attractive to women, but can we not tie the name to sticking a dildo up their bumb? I don't think that's really helping anything.

Nursing? (1)

EMG at MU (1194965) | about 2 months ago | (#46351313)

I know it is impossible, but I just want there to be honest discourse about this supposed "STEM shortage / gender gap". There is no STEM shortage just like there is no Lawyer shortage. The gender gap in software engineering isn't a problem just like the gender gap in nursing isn't a problem. Corporations want to turn software engineers into a commodity. Period.

$100 cash? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351347)

> Well, Google is offering $100 to girls attending U.S. public high schools who complete a Codecademy JavaScript course.

As far as I can tell from RTFMing, Google is offering $100-worth of supplies from DonorsChoose.org for the classroom, not $100 cash to the girls that complete the course.

Re:$100 cash? (1)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about 2 months ago | (#46351493)

When I was their age made ~500 UK pounds (given inflation and dollar conversions > $1000) on some basic computer programming tasks. I remember porting "Columns to BS449" from a Sinclair QL to an Apple ][ for an architect.

$100 is not good pay.

Re:$100 cash? (1)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about 2 months ago | (#46351535)

It seems that BS 449 is obsolete. "EN 1993 - Eurocode 3: Design of steel structures" is the new overlord of structural columns.

Productivity gap (1)

Gothmolly (148874) | about 2 months ago | (#46351349)

The same productivity gap for women exists in all industries. 5 days a month and doesn't die, etc. etc. plus baby-time means that fewer employers will invest in a female employee knowing the ROI is lower than for a male employee.

OTOH, men die earlier then women, so they have a chance to make it up on the back end.

Re:Productivity gap (1)

EMG at MU (1194965) | about 2 months ago | (#46351451)

The same productivity gap for women exists in all industries. 5 days a month and doesn't die, etc. etc.

Every time some neckbeard opens his mouth and allows the misogyny to flow out it just reinforces the notion that there needs to be more incentive for women to get into software. I know this is /. but you probably just made some femnazi's panties crawl up her ass....dammit.

Re:Productivity gap (1)

Gothmolly (148874) | about 2 months ago | (#46351483)

You accuse me of misogyny and then use the term "femnazi" and the phrase "panties crawl up her ass"?

Women take more time off, career-wise, than men do, and it's related to their gender. That's a true statement. What's the problem?

Re:Productivity gap (2)

EMG at MU (1194965) | about 2 months ago | (#46351607)

You obviously ignored the sarcasm tags.

But to play ball: in the US as in many other developed nations you can't discriminate against employees because of things like that. If I have diabetes you can't discriminate against me because I may have low blood sugar one day and have to go home. You can't discriminate someone with a propensity to get the flu every winter because on average that person misses more days than someone who doesn't get the flu. Furthermore you can't just lump all women together and generalize about them. Some choose not to have children, should they be punished because some women do choose to have children?

Were you really trying to say that there is such a disparity between the number of men and women in software engineering because they may take more time off? Or were you just waiting for your chance to get in a cheap shot against women?

You may not be a misogynist, but you do have some silly thoughts regarding women.

Re:Productivity gap (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351927)

Why don't you enlighten us on the reasons women make less money than men? It is a fact that employers take potential time off for raising children into account when they make job offers and negotiate pay.

Re:Productivity gap (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about 2 months ago | (#46351667)

Some things cannot be delegated.

Women are indoctrinated differently. Foul smelly "brogrammers" are at the very tail end of a long process that really has very little to do with anyone in the computing industry or academia.

Let's just put nine women on the job! (2)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about 2 months ago | (#46351359)

. . . and then the baby programming project will be done in a month!

We need more good programmers, not just more programmers. And their sex is totally irrelevant. A good programmer is a good programmer, regardless of sex,race, religion, shoe size, hair color, etc . . .

wait,, is this LifeTime?? (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351377)

since when did /. turn into the LifeTime network??
Where all men are evil, and women can do no wrong..

But seriously, I could grasp as the fact where this may appeal to the more feminine crowd.
But how does it really relate to the community at large?
Hence the referral to LifeTime.. A place where crap like this is more appropriate and tolerated, accordingly..

if I want cable crap I turn on lifetime and get a restful sleep, to others the affects may be different, but run along the same parallel.
If I want stuff that I am used to seeing on /., perhaps, with the propagation from their "dice" overlords this article, I may go elsewhere.

I am not a chauvinist vby any stretch, just pointing out the facts..

Thanks Dice, any more resumes posted as a result of this article..

Hmm speculative @ best I bet. right,,

c ya

computer science is not javaScript or other hands (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 2 months ago | (#46351405)

computer science is not javaScript or other hands on skills it's loads of theory that is not really needed to do the job.

Again the 'women must be stupid to miss out' (4, Insightful)

Lawrence_Bird (67278) | about 2 months ago | (#46351419)

This is soooo freakin tired. And not just on /. Women are not stupid. Or no more so than men. If they want a career/job in comp. sci they certainly can figure out what to do. Can we stop wetting our pants that 51% of the work force in industry X is not women?

Re:Again the 'women must be stupid to miss out' (1)

unimacs (597299) | about 2 months ago | (#46351541)

Aren't you curious as to why? I am because I've noticed a definite fall off in the number of women in the field. I don't think that the women of 25 years ago are fundamentally different than the women of today. So what gives?

At least part of it must be that women are reluctant to enter a field where there are so few other women. Some won't care, obviously, but others will.

Re:Again the 'women must be stupid to miss out' (1)

Algae_94 (2017070) | about 2 months ago | (#46351957)

At least part of it must be that women are reluctant to enter a field where there are so few other women. Some won't care, obviously, but others will.

This certainly didn't stop women from entering the armed forces in large numbers. It may just be that women don't care for computer science as much as men do.

leet skills while female (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351421)

are there any notable female programming wizards?

Re:leet skills while female (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 months ago | (#46351485)

are there any notable female programming wizards?

There's Grace Hopper, but I'm sure there must be some more recent

Re:leet skills while female (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351705)

There aren't many, but that Rajtkoudklwmski hacker lady seems pretty fucking smart.

Programming is over-hyped as a career (4, Insightful)

Tablizer (95088) | about 2 months ago | (#46351423)

Programmer burn-out and turn-over to other IT careers is high. Age discrimination and RSI injuries are common, and you are competing with 3rd-world wage-slaves and typically work long hours. For those who want to be involved with family life, long hours is not a selling point.

Programming is a stepping-stone job into project, network, equipment logistics, and server management, but not the only path. It's only real appeal is quick money out of college. After that you statistically will flat-line compared to other options.

Enough STEM career bullshit already.

Re:Programming is over-hyped as a career (1)

swillden (191260) | about 2 months ago | (#46351707)

After that you statistically will flat-line compared to other options.

Cite?

Re:Programming is over-hyped as a career (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351751)

Enough STEM career bullshit already.

This site is owned by Dice Holdings. Good luck with that.

Abandon all hope ye who thought /. would be worth a damn with corporate money behind it.

oh, i forgot.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351429)

What about Chrystal the Crack dealer?? Or pete the Pimp?
should we reverse the roles of these dynamic professions make it Carl the crack dealer, and Penelope the Pimp?

  or how about jenny the giglio? I mean really I could go on and on..

how about Darth vader transposed with Danielle Vader??
or prince larry instead of Princes Leia

or how about Jenny fallon transposed with Jimmie Fallon.. Now that would be interesting, but still to be aired on lifetime.

But I digress..

This is about driving down wages not womens rights (1)

TheNarrator (200498) | about 2 months ago | (#46351439)

Remember when 1 bread winner could provide for a family in the 1950s? That was before women joined the workforce in mass and drove down wages by competing with men for jobs. It's all so defensible when it's masked as women's rights but it's really about cheap labor.

Re:This is about driving down wages not womens rig (1)

unimacs (597299) | about 2 months ago | (#46351567)

So companies conspired to get more women in the workforce to drive down labor costs?

There used to be more... (1)

unimacs (597299) | about 2 months ago | (#46351447)

I've been doing this for about 25 years now and there used to be more women in the field. I'm not exactly sure what happened. As to Dr. AnnMaria De Mars's point, what about the ones that graduated 10 years ago? I'm guessing a lot of them moved on to different jobs, either in management or someplace else. Compounding the problem women face is ageism. I think it's pretty well accepted that older programmers have a more difficult time finding work in a field that demands constant retraining.

In addition, how many companies would be interested in a programmer that took a few years off to stay home with their kids and didn't have time to maintain their skills? Men don't have that problem to the same degree.

I'm in a position now where I'm involved in hiring new developers. We've always had far fewer women candidates then men. The last time around we had zero.

Re:There used to be more... (1)

walterbyrd (182728) | about 2 months ago | (#46351543)

Another kind of ageism: women younger than 40 can get pregnant, and demand long maturity leaves. And anybody over 40 is too old for IT.

Also, women are usually primary care for children, and that it makes it difficult for them to work over 90 hours a week.

Also, most visa workers in IT are men. And these days, you can hardly tell Redmond from Bangalore.

Stop these articles already! (3, Insightful)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | about 2 months ago | (#46351465)

I've seen an absurd number of stories on this topic, probably ever since the Hour of Code crap started. /. would you please give this topic a @#$% rest???

IT is going offshore anyway (1)

walterbyrd (182728) | about 2 months ago | (#46351499)

Women, as well as men, in the USA might be wise to avoid IT.

There is just no way for a US resident to compete with 3rd world wages.

The jobs that cannot be offshored, will be filled by visa workers.

It is far easier to offshore IT, than to offshore manufacturing. With IT there is no physical inventory, no shipping, no customs, no storage, nothing like that. With IT, you just zap files back and forth.

Unless you have a top secret clearance, there is no way for US and Europe to compete.

Well, about that... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351661)

Unless you have a top secret clearance, there is no way for US and Europe to compete.

My father in-law was laid off form Lockheed months ago. He has a top secret clearance and Lockheed is the only place that requires such things.

He's VERY sharp but unfortunately, when a job posting isn't mysteriously closed, he'll get the "you're not a good fit" when he occasionally gets an interview. Of course, what makes him "not a good fit" is never mentioned. I think it's the gray in his beard.

When I see companies bitch about not getting enough qualified people, I can tell you that it's their hiring practices.

Anyway, off-shoring is going to continue and what I tell sharp kids is go into something else other than IT unless you really really LOVE it.

2001-2 (1)

EMG at MU (1194965) | about 2 months ago | (#46351509)

Humm, if only there was some economic event that happened around that time that could explain why large amounts of people would switch careers. It is almost as if there was some kind of recession in the number of software jobs available that caused female CS grads to pick different careers.

Sigh.. (4, Insightful)

epyT-R (613989) | about 2 months ago | (#46351519)

Enough of this narrative already. Women are given every opportunity and are practically begged by universities (via discriminating scholarships under the guise of 'diversity' programs) to major in comp-sci and other engineering/science majors. They've been doing this for decades, now, and they're still looking at it as though it's 1970. The problem is they're measuring success by the standard of equal outcome on the false premise that men and women are physically and psychologically the same. They're not, so they won't always make the same life choices given similar backgrounds and opportunities. Despite what the PC crowd will say, there's nothing wrong with this at all. This is the very essence of diversity. In a diverse systems, equal outcome is not a given.

How about we focus on equal opportunity based upon relevant attributes (ie demonstrated interest and aptitude), rather than building systemic bias into society under the guise of eliminating it? After that, let individuals make their own life choices. The only thing this bias does is teach women how to play better victims, which denies them opportunities to earn real respect among their peers. Getting society to discriminate against men will not empower them, either. It just creates more irrelevant discrimination and bilateral bigotry.

Here we go again... (1)

erp_consultant (2614861) | about 2 months ago | (#46351527)

another solution looking for a problem. The reason there are fewer women in IT is not because they are being discriminated somehow. It's because they don't see it as a viable occupation for them. They are choosing not to enter the field - for whatever reason - but it is a choice that women have made.

This is not something that needs "fixing" but yet another diversity fuck-wit.

So Google is handing out $100 to girls that complete the JavaScript course? That's great but how about giving it to boys too?

-- Sarcasm begin: Oh but make sure you don't give it to any white boys. They have enough advantages in life already, don't ya know. What about those asian boys? Nah - we have enough of them in IT already. They don't need the $100. Yup, better just stick with giving it to the black and hispanic boys. They are, no doubt, under represented as well so they need a helping hand. And all girls - even white girls - will get the money. That should even things up. -- Sarcasm end

See where this is going?

where are the entwives? (1)

johnrpenner (40054) | about 2 months ago | (#46351561)

i've met some really good women programmers over several decades in the tech world —but precious few. :-(

to make things fit our statistical ideal — we strive to glamourize writing code, the good pay, how easy it is to start, and the cool places you can work if you do. yet these things, have little to do with actually being interesting in numbers and algorithms.

if you have a real interest, the difficulty doesnt stop you, no more than salmon swimming upstream. the insatiable desire to grok code is its own reason. if we cant draw more people into computer science by showing how fascinating powers of 2 arithmetic, binary logic, and how neat pointer references are — then i'm afraid there's little hope — sometimes it seems they just dont like it. they have other less abstract, more practical concerns. so often, in perplexity, i have wondered — why are there so precious few women who are intrinsically interested in writing code? guys dig chicks with whom they can talk C++ —— but where are they!?!?

so i dont know if they are being shut out, or if they are simply averse. for the ones that arent — please, come code. the guys more than want more female programmers around. because of this, i've spent a lot of time trying to help women grok technology more deeply.

one thing i've noticed though, while machinery speaks in hexadecimal; the women are using the machinery more. instead of 'how it works', their quesion is 'how to use'? instead of making machines, they would rather use them. it reminds me of an old quote from Heinrich Heine's mom — 'the man thinks, and the women steers'.

in the end — it is for women to decide.
all we can do is encourage, and hold the door open. :-D
please come.

if you can't H-1B it... (2)

Thud457 (234763) | about 2 months ago | (#46351565)

just hire more women and pay them 75 cents on the dollar.


It'd be worth every quarter just to drive out some of the brogrammers

Tech companies just want to further glut the field (2)

walterbyrd (182728) | about 2 months ago | (#46351585)

The field is already glutted. US workers are being replaced by offshore workers in droves. Wages are not going up.

But IT workers are never cheap enough for the tech companies, so they churn out this propaganda routinely.

Affordable Childcare (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351609)

A big part of the reason women aren't as present in the American high tech workforce compared to other countries is the complete lack of any sort of public child care. In other first world, and in third world (servant economies) a woman with children can rely on help while she pursues a career. In the US help is only available for those with thousands of dollars a month to pour into private childcare. The US prioritizes corporate profits above all, and ignoring the realities of child care is the order of the day.

In my Armchair Sociologist's opinion... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351613)

It seems to me that there are basicly 3 things that contribute to the lack of women in tech:

1. As a society we tell women that having a career is optional and that if you do have a career it's acceptable to sacrifice it for other goals like family. By contrast we tell men that their value is directly related to their career and that if the want to pursue other interests like family they have to find a way to squeeze them in around their career. This results in women frequently being uninterested in jobs with the sort of expectations that are common in tech fields (particularly over time, and continued training/education).

2. Our society views being good at math and logic as un-feminine. So women who have the aptitude frequently choose other paths due to peer pressure.

3. Because there are few women in tech, the sub-cultures surrounding it are often pretty toxic, even hostile towards women. It's rarely intentional, but when a woman looks at her career options and on one hand there's a bunch of geeks who talk to her chest and won't stop making unfunny jokes about how there aren't any girls on the Internet, and on the other hand are a number of fields where she won't have to deal with that crap, it's pretty obvious what choice she's more likely to make.

There's no shortage. (2)

tsotha (720379) | about 2 months ago | (#46351617)

I'd just as soon "Peggy" found something else to do. The entire "shortage" is a mythical construct of tech companies engaged in their biannual attempt to raise the H1-B cap.

If you need to be convinced to take up programming you probably won't be very good at it anyway.

Far too smart (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351641)

My current theory is that women don't enter programming because they're far too smart to get suckered into these jobs.

I hope so. (2)

RightSaidFred99 (874576) | about 2 months ago | (#46351683)

I for one fervently hope so.

Oh, not because this is a real or important issue. I find "diversity" studies in technical fields laughable. You can have more diversity in relevant thought between two white males who graduated from different schools than between a white male and a black female CS graduate. Race and sex are not equal to diversity.

No, I hope this works because I'm fucking tired of hearing about it. So very, very tired.

IT career = good employment, horrible life (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351693)

Ok, that's a bit dramatic. Perhaps.

But seriously, you can't expect a profession that almost REQUIRES minimum 50 hours per week (on an easy week) and off hours 'emergency' calls for basically your entire life, to be popular.

Working with new technology? Cool
Devising new ways for business to use said new technology? Cool
Supporting the demands of financial strapped business that now REQUIRE 24/7 uptime or it's a shit storm? Career breaking terrible.

Where are they now (1)

wiredlogic (135348) | about 2 months ago | (#46351711)

The excess female graduates from 2001-2 were the ones at the tail end of the pipeline following the .com boom to become HTML programmers just like the excess men from that time frame. Once they got their degree they had to face the cold reality of a job environment that they didn't have the capacity to work in.

Depends on who you ask (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351739)

I currently sit in a .Net team that has 3 women to 1 male.
It really depends on if the job is appealing.
Most men don't care about having to be in a basement for there jobs.

Rosie the riveter (1)

Larry_Dillon (20347) | about 2 months ago | (#46351843)

I'd like to point out that Rosie quit after a couple of weeks because she thought the job was too dangerous.

More bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351855)

Nothing stopping ANY women from becoming programmers...

Umm... (3, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 2 months ago | (#46351877)

Does that question even make sense without some sort of suitable historical context?

Is there some massive draft underway, with hundreds of thousands of code monkeys being churned into cannon fodder, that I missed out on?

Even casually equating a total-war domestic propaganda/production mobilization exercise with the half-assed plan of the day by silicon valley to get slightly cheaper programmers just seems... tone deaf. At best.

give me a fucking break (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46351965)

> It harms women by excluding them from some of the best jobs in the country

Nobody is excluding women from tech but women and this useless bullshit stance that we somehow need to make women more equal in order to encourage them in to tech jobs is more damaging than them not coming in to tech.

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