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Computer Science Enrollments Rocketed Last Year, Up 22%

timothy posted about 5 months ago | from the you-might-need-some-education dept.

Education 137

alphadogg writes "A sneak peek at the annual Computing Research Association's (CRA) report on computer science enrollments at colleges shows that strong demand for technically-savvy workers is luring students in a big way. The full 2013 Taulbee Report will be published in May, but the CRA revealed a few tidbits this week in its Computer Research News publication. Among the findings: Among 123 departments responding last year and the year before, there was a 22% increase in enrollment for computer science bachelor's degree programs at U.S. schools. Degrees awarded increased 0.9% and new enrollments rose 13.7%"

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CS is not IT / system admin (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46456127)

get out now and go somewhere with real skills before your loans get to high.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

NotDrWho (3543773) | about 5 months ago | (#46456191)

Are there even any "real skills" fields left with a decent job market these days? Seems like I hear complaints from every field these days about not enough jobs for graduates, even in the medical fields.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (2)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456249)

Seems like I hear complaints from every field these days about not enough jobs for graduates, even in the medical fields.

Which medical fields? How many unemployed doctors do you know? Their union does a good job of restricting supply.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

NotDrWho (3543773) | about 5 months ago | (#46456343)

Nursing for one. It used to be that you could graduate with a BS in nursing, basically throw a dart at a map, and find 2-3 hospitals/doctors in that random town willing to fight over you. From what I understand, that is no longer the case, and a lot of nurses (particularly new graduates) are actually having to work to find a job these days. Article about it here [cnn.com] .

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456617)

Nursing for one. It used to be that you could graduate with a BS in nursing, basically throw a dart at a map, and find 2-3 hospitals/doctors in that random town willing to fight over you. From what I understand, that is no longer the case, and a lot of nurses (particularly new graduates) are actually having to work to find a job these days. Article about it here [cnn.com] .

Blame the bean counting MBAs running the hospitals and focusing solely on the bottom line - profit over patient care. If you've been to a hospital during the past five years you've seen the results of nursing shortages. In the case of most fields the employers demand experience so new graduates or recent graduates need not apply. Hell even highly experienced people cannot get an interview these days in many fields. At least nursing is a quasi-professional role whereas anything in IT/CS is basically a laundry list of constantly changing products and version numbers instead of asking for skills.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (2)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456839)

Blame the bean counting MBAs running the hospitals and focusing solely on the bottom line - profit over patient care.

Yup, patient to nurse ratio is much higher than it used to be, or than it is in other countries. If you go through the numbers, you'll find that nurses are but a tiny part of the utterly obscene hospital bills you get these days. Of course the MBA's pinch pennies on the people who actually provide patient care, and lavish salaries on "administrators" like themselves.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457061)

Yep you aspie faggot. Blame the MBA's for everything. You retards are like the nazi's with the jews. Fucking scapegoating intellectual coward.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (5, Interesting)

FearTheDonut (2665569) | about 5 months ago | (#46456719)

Former nurse turned programmer here. Nursing demand has always been cyclical. Or, at least since the 90's when I went to nursing school. It starts with a huge demand for nurses. Lots of people jump into the field, getting ADNs, LPNs, and sometimes higher degrees. Within a few years, the demand is met and there is a glut of nurses on the market. Eventually, those people who got into nursing because they wanted a (relatively) high-paying job with decent benefits see all the crap (figuratively and literally) you have to deal with. Combined with a typically hostile workplace, many relatively new nurses end up leaving the field. The cycle repeats. I mention hostile workplace because nursing is well known for being one of the few professions out there that still "eats their young." All that to say: give it time. They'll be another shortage within 3-4 years.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46457073)

give it time. They'll be another shortage within 3-4 years

The problem is that if you've recently graduated from nursing school, like my wife, when the next shortage rolls around, you'll get rejected because you're no longer a recent grad and you have little to no work experience.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

FearTheDonut (2665569) | about 5 months ago | (#46457297)

My advice to her would be get some sort of a job either for a temp agency (which often has turnover and often is more relaxed in hiring practices, better or worse) or as a last resort, work as a nursing assistant (which is what I did). While your brain-dependent nursing skills might atrophy, your hands-on skills stay sharp and hospitals DO look for that. That will give you her an edge over the newer candidates both with staying in the field and not being shy around handling her patient's ADLs.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46457661)

She has gotten some work from temp agencies, but even that has gotten sparse. Thanks for the NA idea though, even if it pays little it'd be worth it to keep her patient skills more up-to-date.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457405)

What do you mean "eats their young"? You mean the older people are mean to the newer people? If so, that seems like it could be true almost anywhere. Either way, congrats on mastering two professions, nursing and programming.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

FearTheDonut (2665569) | about 5 months ago | (#46457545)

Mean is an understatement, but yes. I've experienced it, along with practically everyone I've talked with from my previous profession. .Some examples I was told to me would absolutely floor you. I wish I could be more specific, but it's hearsay... But I believe them. Take that for what it is. And this was almost 20 years ago. Thanks for the compliment, too.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456813)

I know. My wife is a nursing grad who can't find a job for anything. When she started the program, it was pretty easy to get a job. By the time she graduated it was just the opposite. And it's not just her. She's kept in touch with classmates and they all say the same thing. It does seem to depend on were you are in the country though. Frustratingly, she regularly gets job offers from various other states.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 5 months ago | (#46457119)

What about relocating to Switzerland? I've read a year or two ago that the Swiss will practically rip your arms of as they will be trying to pull you in, they're basically importing something like 90% of medical personel from Eastern Europe.

Frustratingly, she regularly gets job offers from various other states.

Oh. So I take that the relocation option is out?

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46457633)

Forget Switzerland - there are plenty of nursing jobs in North Dakota. Seriously, it's because of the oil boom, and she's gotten job offers from there, complete with signing bonus and paying relo costs.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

afidel (530433) | about 5 months ago | (#46457141)

She should get her NP, I can't see anytime in the foreseeable future where NP's won't be in high demand. With a push towards more universal coverage and no significant uptick in doctors choosing to become GP's a LOT of primary care is going to be performed by NP's.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46457607)

She should get her NP

She'd love to, bet there's an issue: $$$
We both agree that it's a bad idea to get into debt up to our eyeballs, and because we have kids there is limited cash available.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about 5 months ago | (#46457211)

Article about it here [cnn.com] .

Dueling citations! Here's one from the same time frame that claims the exact opposite: Nursing Grads Have Lowest Unemployment Rate [moneytalksnews.com] .

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456379)

Medical Schools are overcrowded and reject students because of not enough seats in the classroom

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456889)

So why aren't there more or larger medical schools? "Overcrowding" does a great job of restricting the supply of doctors. The Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME), which accredits medical schools, is mostly run by the AMA.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (2)

sandytaru (1158959) | about 5 months ago | (#46456563)

It's not restricted at the "union" level - it's restricted at the school level. The local vet school, for example, strictly caps enrollment at 100 new students a year, with another 200 or so continuing on in specialty fields. So they have roughly 600 students enrolled maximum. This is because veterinary medicine is a slow growth field, and they want to produce enough students to replace retiring vets and match growth without flooding the market, lowering wages, and making people with $200K in student loans unemployed.

There is a dire shortage of doctors in certain fields, so medical schools who handle those specialty fields (e.g. geriatrics - old people are not glamorous) are increasing enrollment cautiously.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456991)

It's not restricted at the "union" level - it's restricted at the school level.

There is no difference. As I pointed out above, the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME), which accredits medical schools, is mostly run by the AMA.

The local vet school, for example, strictly caps enrollment ... because veterinary medicine is a slow growth field, and they want to produce enough students to replace retiring vets and match growth without flooding the market, lowering wages, and making people with $200K in student loans unemployed.

I didn't realize vets have a good union too. In other areas of higher education, from computer science to medieval art history, schools will happily accommodate as many customers (oops, I mean students) as they can, enlarging departments to meet demand, and do it without any regard to the job prospects of their graduates. Curiously MD's, and as you say DVM's, work differently.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

sandytaru (1158959) | about 5 months ago | (#46457105)

All smart colleges and universities do that. My master's cohort had 20 people in it. Could they have taken more? Probably, if they didn't require a fairly high GRE and didn't want to maintain their 3-month-average job placement. It also ensures they only enroll the brightest folks - although some of the doctors out there make me question that.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457481)

-1 snowflake

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

smooth wombat (796938) | about 5 months ago | (#46456311)

I hear complaints from every field these days about not enough jobs for graduates, even in the medical fields.

Not according to companies. If you listen to them, there isn't anyone who's qualified for their positions which is why they have a worker shortage.

Witness this article [yahoo.com] which claims employers are whining they can't find enough people to fill these ten positions which include the medical field.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

jaymz666 (34050) | about 5 months ago | (#46456367)

The real problem is they can't find qualified people to work the hours they want them to work for a paltry income.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456557)

I used to do job interviews for programmers. The pay was fine and the employer offered good work conditions. No spectacular perks, but solid benefits like good health insurance, and developers worked 40 hours a week.

We could not find qualified developers for the world. Somehow they had actually managed to hire a pretty competent team over the years, but every candidate I interviewed for open positions was worthless. We regularly got candidates for a database-driven-Java position who couldn't explain database indexes or inheritance.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456651)

If you want Java developers, try fishing around at college towns. A couple fliers and you can have some very skilled (although not certified) programmers at your beck and call at entry level wages, and who may not have the resume, but are more than willing to learn and fall into line, since Java programming beats flipping burgers or going every few days to the plasma donation center for a couple bucks.

If you need experienced people, post your reqs on Monster and other sites. If your pay/bennies are anywhere near competitive, you will get them. If not, you can always play the H-1B lotto.

There is no shortage of programmers. You just have to know where to look.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | about 5 months ago | (#46457533)

Sometimes there is a shortage. If you need for someone who's written accounting systems, device drivers and console games, on mainframes, smartphones and toasters, with 5 years experience in something that's only existed for 3, who plays the piano and is a Taurus or Aries they're a bit thin on the ground.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456685)

...but every candidate I interviewed for open positions was worthless. We regularly got candidates for a database-driven-Java position who couldn't explain database indexes or inheritance.

Blame the schools for not adequately teaching these concepts. Database indexes and object-oriented inheritance should be fairly easy for any computer science undergraduate or community college graduate to explain during an interview. Now if you are asking about mixed primary and foreign keys / indexes to permit fine-grained index optimisation then their lack of ability in adequately explaining it in the interview is understandable. The fact your company uses Java is enough reason for candidates to avoid applying.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

NotDrWho (3543773) | about 5 months ago | (#46456369)

Not according to companies. If you listen to them, there isn't anyone who's qualified for their positions which is why they have a worker shortage.

They mean a shortage of H-1B visa workers.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

lgw (121541) | about 5 months ago | (#46456459)

Software development pays well, and demand is high, but it sucks to break into the field. It's the one dependable career though: every job that can be automated will (and should) be automated, but someone needs to write that automation.

There's no degree any more where someone will hand you a job just for graduating. Welcome to the adult world, where you won't be handed anything. Pick a field where there's high demand and most people can't do the work well, and you'll be fine in the long run.

yo dawg (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | about 5 months ago | (#46456503)

What about when someone automates the automating?

Re:yo dawg (1)

JWW (79176) | about 5 months ago | (#46457373)

Don't worry, fully programmable self aware AI is 10-20 years away.

In fact, its ALWAYS 10-20 years away.

Re:yo dawg (1)

lgw (121541) | about 5 months ago | (#46457455)

That guy who automates the automating? Has a job. We won't run out of things to automate in my lifetime, and if we ever do get strong AI, it will likely demand higher wages than I will.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (2)

mlts (1038732) | about 5 months ago | (#46456731)

CS/IT is about an oxymoron:

You need to specialize in something so that you have a skill not the average person coming from the degree mills possesses.

BUT you also have to not specialize so much that if/when that skill becomes not needed, one is hosed, be it COBOL, C++ programming, Java clientside applets, etc.

For example, certifications. It is good to have some in several different items because I've found that in previous jobs I've had, auditors will go through the server room, demand certification IDs from staff, and if they are expired (or don't exist), said worker is fired on the spot for "failing to have the authority to operate the device."

This is a tough balance. Error on the jack of all trades, your resume gets tossed. Too far the other way, you end up too specialized and if your specialty goes out the door, you are hosed until you can retool (on your own dime).

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457439)

For example, certifications. It is good to have some in several different items because I've found that in previous jobs I've had, auditors will go through the server room, demand certification IDs from staff, and if they are expired (or don't exist), said worker is fired on the spot for "failing to have the authority to operate the device."

Wait what?

I think your company's auditors are either morons or there's a couple levels of misdirection here and the employees were really being fired for something else.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46457029)

It's the one dependable career though: every job that can be automated will (and should) be automated, but someone needs to write that automation.

"Dependable career" is a nice theory - shame it isn't corroborated by reality.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

lgw (121541) | about 5 months ago | (#46457485)

20+ years says you're wrong. I've never had a dependable job - it's not the 1950s any more - but I've had a perfectly dependable career. I stay on top of changes in tools and technology, don't get stuck in a niche, and see strong demand for my skills. When I want or need to change jobs, I just start responding to the recruiters contacting me.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456323)

get out now and go somewhere with real skills before your loans get to high.

How about foreign languages? A working knowledge of Telugu and Kannada are probably the most useful qualifications these days for any work related to computers.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (2)

jaymz666 (34050) | about 5 months ago | (#46456377)

Do they speak English or French in Kannada?

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

sisukapalli1 (471175) | about 5 months ago | (#46456611)

Telugu person with a Kannada speaking spouse here...

Unless people are talking with their own friends that speak the same language at home about personal stuff (or they are bad-mouthing or saying "good but inappropriate" things), may people speak English. For almost all things computer related, I don't know of anyone that uses native language words.

This sort of venting definitely needs a native-language "MASK":
"This MASK(native-language based identifier of the colleague -- like tall guy, fat guy, etc) is a MASK(major league body cavity and x-ref to his mother), so MASK(be very careful)."

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456723)

native-language based identifier of the colleague

I'm not talking about colleagues.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (2)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about 5 months ago | (#46456415)

get out now and go somewhere with real skills before your loans get to high.

Then go back once you realize that no one wants to hire you if you don't have a Bachelor's Degree.

See, I took that route - instead of 'wasting time' on a four year degree, I jumped into the industry with both feet, spending the last decade gaining experience, learning to work on production systems that students only hear about, and recent CS grads only know in theory.

Yet I can't seem to get out of low-pay, entry level positions; why? Because I don't have a Bachelor's degree.

In the 20th Century, you could get by on experience alone. Here in the 21st, it seems that all employers care about is that little piece of paper.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (4, Funny)

NotDrWho (3543773) | about 5 months ago | (#46456455)

HR departments are the bane of modern business.

"Sorry, sir, but we just don't feel that you're qualified for this entry-level programming position"
"But I'm Bill Gates!"
"Yes, and your application clearly shows that you dropped out of college before obtaining your Bachelor's Degree..."
"But I'm *Bill Gates*!"
"Sorry sir, please apply again when you have the required degree..."

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456643)

get out now and go somewhere with real skills before your loans get to high.

Then go back once you realize that no one wants to hire you if you don't have a Bachelor's Degree.

See, I took that route - instead of 'wasting time' on a four year degree, I jumped into the industry with both feet, spending the last decade gaining experience, learning to work on production systems that students only hear about, and recent CS grads only know in theory.

Yet I can't seem to get out of low-pay, entry level positions; why? Because I don't have a Bachelor's degree.

In the 20th Century, you could get by on experience alone. Here in the 21st, it seems that all employers care about is that little piece of paper.

I also fell for that. And that is why I ended up going back to school several years ago and got my bachelors degree (though in engineering, I was so sick of IT by then.) Even before the recession nobody wanted anyone without a degree, you had to know someone high up in the company to get past the HR filter on that one. If only I had stuck to college in the first place, I'd have been a senior engineer already now rather than a junior in his 30's.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457449)

>I also fell for that. And that is why I ended up going back to school several years ago and got my bachelors degree (though in engineering, I was so sick of IT by then.) Even before the recession nobody wanted anyone without a degree, you had to know someone high up in the company to get past the HR filter on that one. If only I had stuck to college in the first place, I'd have been a senior engineer already now rather than a junior in his 30's.

Do you really believe that?

I have news for you, having a degree doesn't change the fact that the high paying senior engineer job at the well respected company requires knowing someone higher up.

What it does mean is if someone identical to yourself applies cold to the job, they'll be considered first. Since this only matters in the jobs that suck (as to get in the well respected companies you either have to find a position where the company is desperate--which means they don't care what warm body they get--or you have to know the right people) the difference is minimal.

All this is assuming you have the years of experience it takes to get there.

Source: My cabal of IT friends, none of whom have a degree, but have all worked for major companies.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

lgw (121541) | about 5 months ago | (#46457541)

Yet I can't seem to get out of low-pay, entry level positions; why? Because I don't have a Bachelor's degree.

My experience is completely the opposite. Do you work for the government or something? Do you actually self-filter when the requirements say "BA required, MS preferred"?

Past my (crappy) first job, no one has ever cared. Wait, I take that back: there was one team at Google that didn't want to interview me once (but Google recruiters for other teams still pester me often). So once in 20 years someone cared.

Re:CS is not IT / system admin (1)

sisukapalli1 (471175) | about 5 months ago | (#46456475)

I feel there is some good news in there.

Thanks to Big Data awareness (there is potential there even if we factor in all the hype), the focus of the curriculum in many CS schools will shift more towards math and algorithms (for databases, system resource considerations, etc. -- core math/science and engineering), instead of "pure IT" or "software/computer use" [e.g. teaching html markups, office suites, configuring networks, basic sysadmin, etc.]

Or, may be I am in my own bubble and we are going to see degree programs that are named "computer science" and focus on HTML5, web app development, game development, etc. In which case, the wheels on the bus go round and round...
 

Re: CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456573)

More particularly, consider law. No such thing as an unemployed Bar Association member unless in a glut city like NYC or LA.

No point in bothering with CS. Most businesses can pay $16,000 a year for a H-1B with a CCIE, MCSE, CISSP, or RHCA, and years of experience in IT.

CS is like textiles or meat packing. Was a sustainable field, now is something that is not a place one can earn an income in the US. India and China have the advantage that their citizens have no student loan debt, as their governments pay for the colleges. This allows them to work in the US for pennies.

For US people, law, business, or accounting are where pay checks lie.

Re: CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456945)

More particularly, consider law. No such thing as an unemployed Bar Association member unless in a glut city like NYC or LA.

Huh? What country are you living in? I must have a dozen friends who are lawyers and dropped out to do something else. There's a glut of lawyers coming out of law schools. If you're not a top grad from a highly respected school, don't expect to get a decent gig-- in fact, don't expect to get any gig unless you expend some serious hustle. If you are a top grad from a highly respected school-- you can still expect to be treated like a peon, and put in long hours doing scutwork, before you move up the ladder.

Re: CS is not IT / system admin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457063)

Most businesses can pay $16,000 a year for a H-1B with a CCIE, MCSE, CISSP, or RHCA, and years of experience in IT.

At our start-up, which is located in an area with a low to moderate cost of living, we pay S.B. EE/CS- and Sc.M. EE/CS-holding software and systems engineers around $115,000/year to $150,000/year. For our IT workers, many of whom have an S.B. CS, we pay around $75,000/year to $110,000/year. Given that we pay incredibly well for the area, we're more than able to attract some great talent and continuously pull down new contracts. I can't even begin to imagine how terrible the situation would be if we hired typical H-1B visa holders.

Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456131)

Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K starting. That's the equiv of $36K in 1997. Inflation is a bitch.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (0)

NotDrWho (3543773) | about 5 months ago | (#46456197)

Everyone's a comedian these days.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456315)

Why? My starting job in 1997 was 36K which was modest in the dot boom. Some were starting at 50-80K back then. Inflation is the hidden wage killer.

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

If you aren't calculating for inflation, you are getting screwed.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

geminidomino (614729) | about 5 months ago | (#46456383)

You said it yourself: that was in the middle of the dot-com boom. There was also a different kind of inflation going on then, and expecting that money to start (or it's equivalent in today-dollars) is ridiculous.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456411)

Why is it ridiculous? Is there not enough demand? Supply too great?

I said it was modest during the dot boom, the high salaries were 80K+. 50K is a more than fair starting salary for a programmer today.

>Expecting that money to start (or it's equivalent in today-dollars) is ridiculous.

I expect the next sentence to be, "I can't find any good programmers."

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

geminidomino (614729) | about 5 months ago | (#46456619)

When it's your first day of your first job out of college, odds are strongly in favor of your not being a good programmer.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456705)

Actually, that's pretty negative. I think you mean experienced programmer, not a good programmer.

You go ahead and continue to pay shit wages for programmers, and I'll continue to warn programmers not to take shit wages.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (3, Insightful)

lgw (121541) | about 5 months ago | (#46456421)

My starting coding job paid $18k. And that was awesome, because it was a real, full-time coding job.

Your apprenticeship will likely not pay well. That's fine, it's just for a couple of years.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456495)

Sorry, but $9 an hour is not a "real, full-time coding job." You got exploited because you were desperate. I'm sure it was fun and you learned a lot, but your employer totally shafted you financially.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

CODiNE (27417) | about 5 months ago | (#46456993)

Exploited or not, if one is trying to start out as a programmer and nobody is willing to hire, what choice do they have?

I still see "Junior" level jobs requiring 3 to 5 years in every acronym under the sun.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

lgw (121541) | about 5 months ago | (#46457445)

Yes, I was exploited (worse than you're thinking). So what? I needed to break into the field. I did. Goal achieved. The money I made for the first couple of years just doesn't matter now - it opened the door, and was way the hell easier than a medical internship.

Re: Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457643)

I made 32 starting out 4 years ago with no experience, but only worked it for a year and a half. I have now tripled that salary. I agree that taking lower pay is a good foot in the door when you have no experience. I had spent 7 months looking for work, but no one wanted a guy with a mediocre GPA and no experience or connections.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456489)

Funny. $53k was my exact starting salary 15+ years ago straight out of college.
Two years ago I was the hiring manager for a dev position and offered $90k to a recent college graduate with less than a year of contracting experience (I would have offered less but HR told me that was what the market dictated, and they're not known to spend money just for the fun of it).
When I see people on ./ claiming they make under $50k, I have to believe they're either making it up or living in a super low cost area.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456601)

The totally sad thing, is people are arguing with me that they deserve to get paid less. WTF, I thought programmers were smart.

PS: 53K 15 years ago, you lucky dog!

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456743)

"When I see people on ./ "

"on ./"

"./"

"dotslash"

Dotslash!?! LEAVE. LEAVE AND NEVER RETURN.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456823)

Muscle memory. Given that I spend waaaaaay more time working than posting here, I also type the character sequence "./" way more often than "/."

Things might be different for you. In that case you're probably in the sub-$50k category as well.

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456937)

Zing!

Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K (1)

parkinglot777 (2563877) | about 5 months ago | (#46456981)

Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K starting.

According to prevailing wage for an H1B person, the fresh graduated person would get his/her salary at $56,597/year in New York, NY [ http://www.flcdatacenter.com/O... [flcdatacenter.com] ], $42,806/year in Boise, ID [ http://www.flcdatacenter.com/O... [flcdatacenter.com] ], and $72,613/year in San Francisco, CA [ http://www.flcdatacenter.com/O... [flcdatacenter.com] ]. So it all depends on where you live...

angry bird (1, Offtopic)

beefoot (2250164) | about 5 months ago | (#46456133)

We need a new version of angry bird every week.
0 5 * * 7 root release_a_new_angry_bird.py

Re:angry bird (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456213)

I'm going to call mine "Flabby Bird"! You have to navigate Larry Bird through a series of diets to try to maintain your old player weight, so you don't feel so old.

Re:angry bird (1)

us7892 (655683) | about 5 months ago | (#46456241)

If only I mad mod points for this one. Funny +1.

Ugh :( (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456135)

I love the idea of people who are genuinely interested gaining access to these careers but this reminds me too much of the last dot-com bubble. All sorts of idiots who had no business getting into technology jumped into the pool chasing lucrative salaries and making gigantic messes once they got hired. It took years to flush them all back out.

Re:Ugh :( (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about 5 months ago | (#46456155)

It's the fallout from the "English Major? More like Fry Cook." response to how the economic crisis was screwing recent graduates. People see that and go "I don't want to be like that in 4 years"

It's easy money (3, Insightful)

ItUsedToBeBroken (2794719) | about 5 months ago | (#46456173)

The kids see $220,000,000 spent on a website that doesn't work (ie: CoverOregon) and think "Hell, that looks like easy work for the compensation" and they're right.

Re:It's easy money (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456245)

Most of that money went to management, not to the coders,

Re:It's easy money (2)

ItUsedToBeBroken (2794719) | about 5 months ago | (#46456307)

Of course it did...but with the entitlement mentaility of todays graduates they assume they'll be leadership from day 1.

Re:It's easy money (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456435)

"Kids these days, they want to start at the top and move sideways" - Harry Hartounian

Re:It's easy money (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457041)

Shareholders, not managers. Shit,. I bet you don't even have an MBA.

Re:It's easy money (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | about 5 months ago | (#46456267)

Um, technically, that was a Canadian subcontractor, so blaming it on US tech workers is a bit of a stretch.

Outsourcing sucks.

Great News For American Technology (2)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456195)

there was a 22% increase in enrollment for computer science bachelor's degree programs at U.S. schools

Great news for American technology! Of course it will take a while before those students graduate, so we'll need to "temporarily" increase the H-1B quota 3x. We assure you that this is being done only to keep the industry from completely collapsing due to the desperate shortage of qualified people, so that we'll be able to offer jobs to all those American students when they graduate.

Prepare your tinfoil hats (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456203)

Prepare your tinfoil hats.

Here's my theory: The government sees our lack of knowledgable IT people as a risk to national security and has "put something in the water" (or whatever other method they have for influencing the public) to try to increase that number.

Or - the bar has been lower.

Re:Prepare your tinfoil hats (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 5 months ago | (#46456275)

Why do you need a tinfoil hat? "STEM shortage" is shouted from every rooftop, by government and non-government people alike, and has been ever since Sputnik. Objective statistics be damned - we need people who can take a scientific approach!

A degree is not the same as being hired (2)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | about 5 months ago | (#46456243)

Get at least six months of work in the field before you graduate with your CS degree.

Oh, and based on what I've seen, a lot of the students taking that are from other countries.

Not to be confused with local students, of which there are many.

As to the supposed goal of increasing women in technology, I've noticed it's all about only direct entry first year in STEM targetted on girls in middle and high school, which is fine, but ignores all the women who graduated high school and started work in another field or got all or part way to a degree in another field before deciding they liked tech better.

You need to fix that, because there are too many hoops to jump through and it's very confusing.

I've seen this before (5, Insightful)

ErichTheRed (39327) | about 5 months ago | (#46456253)

I remember CS enrollment shot way up in the late 90s as the dotcom bubble was inflating. Now that we're in the late stages of the social media/apps bubble, and people are getting interested in computer science again, I'm guessing that's the reason for the spike.

Bubble or no bubble, there's always going to be demand for good, talented people in software development and IT. The H-1B and offshoring trends have cut salaries significantly, and have made employment less stable, but there are still jobs out there. If students are going into CS that have a genuine interest in computers, that's good. Chasing the money like they were doing in the 90s without the desire will lead to the same problem we had when 2001 rolled around -- tons of "IT professionals" who had no aptitude for the work and were just employed because of the frothy market.

I've managed to stay employed for almost 20 years now and I still really enjoy what I do. It's not as wildly lucrative as it was in the 90s when you could get 20+% salary increases by changing jobs every six months. The only things I've done consistently over this time are:
- Keeping my skills current (and yes, it is a tough commitment especially when you employer doesn't care.)
- Not begging for higher and higher raises every single time salary review time comes around (which requires saving and living within one's means...)
- Choosing employers who don't treat their employees like they're disposable.

I've heard lots of older IT people that they're actively discouraging their kids from following in their footsteps. I don't think that's necessarily good advice. Sure, there are crappy employers out there, and it's not a guaranteed ticket to wealth anymore. But if you're flexible and want interesting work that lets you use your brain and get paid for it, it's still a good move IMO. Look at the legal profession right now - the ABA sold out their members by allowing basic legal work to be offshored. Law degrees were previously an absolute guarantee of a respected, high-salary job, and now that profession is starting to see what we're seeing. My opinion is that as computers get more and more involved in our daily lives, a professional framework will eventually develop when things really start getting safety-sensitive and people stop treating computers like magic boxes and IT/developers like magicians.

Re:I've seen this before (1)

daveisfera (832409) | about 5 months ago | (#46456819)

When I was at BYU in the late 90s, it was stated by several professors that CS was the most enrolled in and dropped out of major, so I agree that an increase in enrollment doesn't mean a whole lot. The meaningful number will be to see if there's a corresponding increase in the degrees awarded rate in 4 years.

Re:I've seen this before (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456953)

Bingo, my college had 200-300 in the freshman classes and 20-30 in the senior classes. I think they started making freshman pass Calculus 1 and 2 prior to CS classes now which filters out a lot of people.

Re:I've seen this before (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457283)

My graduating class was 9 people. A 22% increase is approximately 2 more people graduated. As opposed to the business school which had hundreds of graduates, a good 1/4 of them with a 4.0 and above. Yes, the percentage is impressive, but put it into some context. 2 more graduates versus 50.

and now... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456413)

All those enrolees just have to make it through the program and actually graduate..

Why this is happening... (3, Interesting)

CaptainOfSpray (1229754) | about 5 months ago | (#46456429)

I blame the Raspberry Pi myself. Oh, damn those fiendish Engishmen for inventing it! Nobody expected the Raspberry Pi.

Now if we only had a 22% increase in CS Jobs (1)

Crashmarik (635988) | about 5 months ago | (#46456671)

Prediction in 3-4 years expect lots of pain in CS/IT employment.

Re:Now if we only had a 22% increase in CS Jobs (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46456769)

Yeah, for entry jobs. People with 10+ years of experience will still be golden.

Re:Now if we only had a 22% increase in CS Jobs (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457433)

Prediction in 3-4 years expect lots of pain in CS/IT employment.

Only if you're in the bottom 22 percent of the industry. *rimshot*

Engineering decimation (1)

wiredlogic (135348) | about 5 months ago | (#46456869)

I would posit that this increase is caused by technically minded students seeing what has happened to engineering in the US and focusing on CS as the last viable avenue of technical study with a healthy job market. It's the only place where entry level jobs are readily available. I would find it hard to encourage any young American to pursue a technical career outside of software development. As it stands now, engineering schools largely serve a Chinese and Korean student base.

Wow! A whopping 0.9% increase!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457323)

You would think that a 22% increase in enrollment (and a 13.7% increase in new enrollment) would result in more than a jaw-dropping 0.9% in degrees awarded.

Seems that CS is still one of the ass-kickinest degrees on the planet when a nearly 1/4 increase in enrollment results in almost no increase in earned degrees ;)

I don't think those of us with the Wonka's golden ticket of degrees has much to be worried about.

waste (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46457367)

waste

What inquiring minds need to know (1)

argStyopa (232550) | about 5 months ago | (#46457631)

Sure, that's a lot of applicants, but really the most important thing is DO ENOUGH OF THEM HAVE VAGINAS?

I mean, really, otherwise it's obviously sexism at work.

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