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Federal Student Aid Requirements At For-Profit Colleges Overhauled

samzenpus posted about 5 months ago | from the new-rules dept.

Education 295

An anonymous reader writes "The U.S. Department of Education has released a proposal for new regulations that would hold colleges that receive federal student aid accountable for the employment success of their graduates. The overhaul is prompted by the fact that students from for-profit colleges account for nearly 50% of all loan defaults yet only account for about 13% of the total higher education population. '[O]f the for-profit gainful employment programs the Department could analyze and which could be affected by [the proposed regulations], the majority--72%--produced graduates who on average earned less than high school dropouts.'"

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bitcoin:3MHKwkvBwoa5oa6NMJJrcWDZQprjacuXZ8 (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498091)

bitcoin:3MHKwkvBwoa5oa6NMJJrcWDZQprjacuXZ8

Re:bitcoin:3MHKwkvBwoa5oa6NMJJrcWDZQprjacuXZ8 (0)

MatthewNewberg (519685) | about 5 months ago | (#46498123)

Clearly you are in default, you have money.

Maybe... (2)

ceide2000 (234155) | about 5 months ago | (#46498121)

The majority of people attending these institutions are one stop away from being high school dropouts. I couldn't begin to count the number of companies who refuse to employee individuals from these "tech colleges". I interviewed one "tech college" professor who had no practical knowledge in the industry, no degree outside of a what was taught at the "tech college", and admitted he had limited knowledge on core infrastructure questions outside of the material provided by the "tech college". However he was a professor for the core infrastructure classes at the same "tech college" he graduated from. I promptly put that institution on my not even worth hiring helpdesk support list. If you want someone to really look at your resume go to a community college and be willing to put in the time to learn. Stay away from tech colleges as they are stain on a resume you could never get off.

Re:Maybe... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498147)

If you want someone to really look at your resume go to a community college and be willing to put in the time to learn.

I highly recommend self-education. Any employer who won't look at your resume simply because you don't have a piece of paper isn't one you want to work for, anyway.

Re:Maybe... (1)

Mike Frett (2811077) | about 5 months ago | (#46498467)

I agree that Paper shouldn't determine out Life.

Re: Maybe... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498753)

Who is going to hire a 22 year old kid with little to no experience or a degree?
It is great to be self taught, don't make seem like should be just as easy to get a job.

no practical knowledge in the industry at big uni (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46498155)

Where you have professors who have been in school for years and have next to no real experience.

also CS for help desk is just as bad as you can get people loaded with theory and codeing skills but lacking big time in the desktop / system admin side.

Re:no practical knowledge in the industry at big u (2)

AuMatar (183847) | about 5 months ago | (#46498209)

But they actually know and understand the curriculum. Besides which, professors at real universities aren't hired to teach, they're hired because of the research they've done. So yes, they have experience in research.

Re:no practical knowledge in the industry at big u (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498235)

But they actually know and understand the curriculum.

Who does? Most college and university students who have come to me looking for a job had no understanding of the theory, and no practical knowledge to boot. I've had much better luck with self-educated people.

Re:no practical knowledge in the industry at big u (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498801)

Fortunately for the institution of higher learning most others have the opposite experience.

Re:no practical knowledge in the industry at big u (1)

SpockLogic (1256972) | about 5 months ago | (#46498533)

But they actually know and understand the curriculum. Besides which, professors at real universities aren't hired to teach, they're hired because of the research they've done. So yes, they have experience in research.

Tenured professors are hired to do research, adjunct professors are the under paid teachers.

Experience of which industry? (2)

Roger W Moore (538166) | about 5 months ago | (#46498669)

Where you have professors who have been in school for years and have next to no real experience.

Experience of which industry? I'm a physics prof. Our grads work in fields as diverse as finance, medicine, IT, natural resources, academic and industrial research etc. in a diverse range of positions. University is supposed to give you deep understanding of a subject and a broad range of skills that are useful for a wide variety of positions both in academia and industry it is not a training scheme for job X. Being involved in research means that I can take the latest research results and bring them into lectures so the students learn about them and perhaps find ways to apply that knowledge wherever they end up. This is not only good for the student but good for society as a whole and someone from industry is unlikely to be able to do that.

Re:Experience of which industry? (1)

Sarius64 (880298) | about 5 months ago | (#46498853)

For example, I just set up a NOC that administrates 14,000 devices across Europe. The four main technicians in the role are working toward their various CCIE tracks. You would have to show me a ton of evidence to prove someone sitting in a classroom could have pulled off their products. Admittedly, they're not in a physics industry. Also, when I need people to define large algorithms for other needs, I definitely look your associates up for the job. I think we can all admit that industry, research, and application can be shades of gray, too.

IT needs apprenticeship and maybe 1-2 year trades (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46498175)

IT needs apprenticeship and maybe 1-2 year trade like schools 4+ years pure class room is to much and even 2 years pure class room is pushing it as well.

Re:IT needs apprenticeship and maybe 1-2 year trad (1)

Eric Wise (3521651) | about 5 months ago | (#46498657)

I agree! I run a 12 week program where we use apprenticeship principles in the classroom. It's a more than full time commitment, with very small class sizes (12 max) and we are seeing a 90% job placement rate.

Re:IT needs apprenticeship and maybe 1-2 year trad (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498783)

Many people on slashdot are far out of date when it comes to college curriculum. There are many degree programs with detail and focus in systems design, administration, analysis, and so on. Only programmers need a degree in computer science, for IT people there are many IT degrees. Coders in server rooms are as dangerous as an auto mechanic servicing a turbojet. CS degrees are for cubicle farms, IT degrees are for everywhere else.

Re:Maybe... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498799)

So your sample size is one. Very scientific and rational. Can you provide your "company" name so I can avoid applying there?

Nuh-uh (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498131)

Nuh-uh... B.S. - University of Phoenix

There is a goose to that gander (1)

Stumbles (602007) | about 5 months ago | (#46498167)

If they are going to do that, then the same standard should applies to our public school system. My federal tax dollars are federal tax dollars and that does not change regardless who gets my federal tax dollars.

Re:There is a goose to that gander (1)

J Story (30227) | about 5 months ago | (#46498781)

If they are going to do that, then the same standard should applies to our public school system. My federal tax dollars are federal tax dollars and that does not change regardless who gets my federal tax dollars.

I agree. The problem, however, is that it's much harder to connect the dots between, say, an elementary school's teaching performance, and outcomes ten years later. That is not to say that the attempt should not be made.

Sounds Wonderful (5, Informative)

ranton (36917) | about 5 months ago | (#46498179)

While this sounds like posturing that would never actually get passed, I really I hope I am wrong. I went to the University of Phoenix because I was working full time and night program CS degrees at real schools simply did not exist 5 years ago. I knew then that I would only pay for the degree if I was planning on getting a Masters degree at a real school right after. I even called two local schools to ensure they would admit graduate students with UoP undergrad degrees. (BTW, I am in my last semester of my Masters program now)

My UoP degree definitely helped with my career, but only because I was an experienced software developer long before I enrolled. It only helped because of ridiculous HR requirements for applicants with degrees only. The education was atrocious. My second semester database class consisted of just these four assignments: 1) Create a Database, 2) Create a Table, 3) Create Foreign Key Relationships, 4) Load Data into the Tables, 5) Create a Report. They even gave us the commands so all we needed to do was paste them into the console. This may be the most egregious example of the poor curriculum I can think of, but the rest of it was almost as bad.

My fellow students who didn't already know the material were struggling to understand it with no help in sight. I would help them on the forums and over emails, but I knew they would never get the necessary instruction to ever get hired in this field, let alone keep any job they weaseled their way into. It was really sad that they were spending potentially over $50k for a worthless degree. I never said anything to them because I did not want to risk being kicked out after spending so much money.

I hope the government really does start to do something. This problem was primarily caused by real universities that do not offer sufficient night programs for adult students, but it has progressed to the point where government intervention is necessary. These online schools really could provide decent educations if they were forced to. If their programs were decent they would fill a very large void in our country's education system, but in their current form they are nothing more than a parasite.

The university time tables are a poor fit and.. (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46498215)

A better system is needed for people who are working but want to learn new / more skills and want them to add up to something why not have some kind of badges systems?

also some skills are a poor fit in to the over all university system also the university system is loaded with all kinds of fluffy / filler classes as well. forced PE classes at a price that is more then a 2 YEAR HIGH COST fitness club membership??

Re:The university time tables are a poor fit and.. (1)

AuMatar (183847) | about 5 months ago | (#46498549)

What college still has forced PE classes? I know my mom had one back in the 70s, but I haven't known anyone who had to take one in the past decade or two.

Re:The university time tables are a poor fit and.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498785)

Penn State did 5 years. It was only one class and honestly it was a lot of fun, so I didnt complain. You could do rock climbing, kayaking, fencing, dancing and a bunch more. For cost I went to a satellite campus which was charged differently then main campus. They changed the same amount no matter how many credit you took past 12. This meant I could take a bunch of random PE classes for basically free if I was willing to take extra classes. I ended taking 3 PE classes.

Re:The university time tables are a poor fit and.. (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46498803)

cornell and they still have the swim test.

Re:The university time tables are a poor fit and.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498613)

Google "Treehouse"

Re:Sounds Wonderful (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498397)

My second semester database class consisted of just these four assignments: 1) Create a Database, 2) Create a Table, 3) Create Foreign Key Relationships, 4) Load Data into the Tables, 5) Create a Report.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our principal weapon is...

Re:Sounds Wonderful (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498541)

My second semester database class consisted of just these four assignments: 1) Create a Database, 2) Create a Table, 3) Create Foreign Key Relationships, 4) Load Data into the Tables, 5) Create a Report.

Good thing they didn't ask you to count

Re:Sounds Wonderful (2, Funny)

tomhath (637240) | about 5 months ago | (#46498565)

My second semester database class consisted of just these four assignments: 1) Create a Database, 2) Create a Table, 3) Create Foreign Key Relationships, 4) Load Data into the Tables, 5) Create a Report.

Apparently they didn't require very good counting skills either.

Re:Sounds Wonderful (2)

ranton (36917) | about 5 months ago | (#46498671)

My second semester database class consisted of just these four assignments: 1) Create a Database, 2) Create a Table, 3) Create Foreign Key Relationships, 4) Load Data into the Tables, 5) Create a Report.

Apparently they didn't require very good counting skills either.

My counting was just fine (see the numbers properly progressing from 1 to 5). My problem was inconsistencies in my writing, caused by remembering the fifth assignment while writing my comment but not properly revising the previous statement.

Re:Sounds Wonderful (3, Informative)

Bazzible (661545) | about 5 months ago | (#46498903)

He had them in an array in his mind, array started at 0.

Re:Sounds Wonderful (1)

JimDarkmagic (1339257) | about 5 months ago | (#46498627)

The DOE already passed "Gainful Employment" rules once. The first time around, a group representing the for-profit colleges sued the DOE and got the teeth ripped out of the rules. The judge decided the metrics that lead to punishments didn't have enough factual basis to back them up, so they were thrown out. These rules appear to the the second attempt, likely prepared with more thought to defending themselves against the schools with deep pockets.

Googling "gainful employment rules" or "gainful employment rules stuck down" will likely provide more information.

Re:Sounds Wonderful (1)

Sarius64 (880298) | about 5 months ago | (#46498715)

I attended UoP in a similar situation. UoP is most definitely a survival of the fittest environment. Usually one (two at best) people on a team take charge and lead the rest of the group to success/survival. The one thing UoP did, IMO, was set me up for the realities of the workplace. Very little hand-holding, independent study based upon a very regimented syllabus, very concise scopes needed for success, and lots of people without a clue how to get there. My C++ II class still gives me shivers for the amount of time I spent in conference calls walking the team through simple logic constructs the books never taught.

Having said that, most of the professors were worthless. Their responses were often a week late, their discipline standards ranged from non-existent to nuclear with very little (if any) middle ground, and they blatantly expected leaders to pull everyone else along or receive a punitive grade. As far as expertise, I was severely disappointed by the lack of tutors within the context of the online community. The one shining group was the math professors. Of course, this isn't too far from brick and mortar college experiences and anecdotal experiences I've heard from other students, even today. I had considered a MBA program at UoP till I read over the shoulder of a friend undertaking that program and found he was dealing with the same crazy people that populated my previous classes there. Luckily I found a good MSE to attend. Also, I was lucky enough to pay as I went and not incur the debt.

I agree with your conclusion concerning the lack of adult education. Not everyone exiting the military (for example) was able to take a few years completely off for school. But don't forget the easy money that increased fees dramatically in response to an avalanche of green. Someone told me bachelor class are running $1900 per at UoP right now. Unreal. Also, to add incentive, I think students that fail a class should have to pay a penalty, too.

What Sounds Do You Hear? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498793)

It's great that they accurately pinpointed a defect, or something that is undesirable, but they don't understand the underlying problem.

These schools could care less if the kids get a job or not, neither does the federal government. The loans loses have nothing to do with the school, and cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. The idea that politicians care doesn't mean the government will. At the end, you look at the proposed solutions, and it's nothing more or nothing less then Washington D.C. drawing more control of an industry centrally.

Here is the sounds from the press release:

(From http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/obama-administration-takes-action-protect-americans-predatory-poor-performing-ca)

In the Department's proposed regulations, career programs would need to meet key requirements to establish that they sufficiently prepare students for gainful employment.

        Institutions must certify that all gainful employment programs meet applicable accreditation requirements and state or federal licensure standards.
        All gainful employment programs must pass metrics to continue eligibility in the student financial aid program, including: the estimated annual loan payment of typical graduates does not exceed 20 percent of their discretionary earnings or 8 percent of their total earnings and the default rate for former students does not exceed 30 percent.
        Additionally, institutions must publicly disclose information about the program costs, debt, and performance of their gainful employment programs so that students can make informed decisions.

My prediction? The metrics of transparency will be rigged, good institutions will have to fork over dough and/or compromise their standards, whatever constitues inequality will not budge, and student loan debt will continue to shoot up. I would place money on it reaching two trillion within 10 years.

My fix? Allow student loan debt to be discharged in bankruptcy. That will get the banks(or govt) and schools more incentive to help increase the students job prospects.

Apprenticeship (1)

roman_mir (125474) | about 5 months ago | (#46498907)

I look for people who are interested in software development, who are willing to take the opportunity to learn on the job and can demonstrate that they can learn, that they are intelligent and that they understand that if they do not possess the skills that allow me to bill my clients for their work, they will not get paid until they acquire those skills. I train my people the way I see fit and within a few weeks they become productive members of the team, at which point they can start commanding a wage.

I have very little interest in their academic achievements, the degree does not matter to me one bit. However I do have a few examples that show that people that drop out of the school that they started are in some cases very flaky. Seriously, I wouldn't have thought that previously, but I have examples where people that were drop outs in computer science also drop off the radar at work! Even the talented can be the most flaky people apparently, it's kind of surprising.

OTOH people who are still students, even if their education has nothing to do with computing, are actually hard working and they show up, which apparently not everybody can do - SHOW UP. It's quite amazing, honestly.

Re:Sounds Wonderful (2)

Greyfox (87712) | about 5 months ago | (#46498937)

To be fair though, my nephew is going through a CS program at a university and has asked me about some of his assignments. They're similarly trivial and the example code provided by the professors is atrocious. I like to think they're doing that intentionally, but I know they're not. I was disillusioned with the business programming course I enrolled in right out of high school back in the '80's and ended up finding a small state school with instructors who had real world experience for the rest of my formal education. Even with that, I've learned far more on my own and through work experience than I was ever going to pick up in a university. If a person isn't motivated to learn on his own, he's never going to be a particularly good programmer. Perhaps the for-profit schools just attract a higher concentration of people who are only trying to get into CS for the money and don't have the love of the art that you need to get to that level.

When I'm in charge of hiring, a degree doesn't really factor into my decision. I can tell if you're the sort of person who enjoys programming. I'd take a high school dropout over someone with a Master's, if the high school dropout had a substantial portfolio of open source code he could show me. Assuming the guy with the Master's didn't, naturally. If they both did, I'd want to hire them both, and I'd make a damn good argument to management about it.

Wrong target (0, Troll)

johnlcallaway (165670) | about 5 months ago | (#46498183)

Continue to hold the student accountable. They're the ones that were too stupid to go to a college and get a degree for a job good enough to pay it off. And too stupid to figure out debt v/s income ratios. And maybe their parents if they were involved in the stupid decision to send their kids to college without a means to pay for it.

That's the problem with so many people today .. it's always someone else who is the problem.

But, to be fair, the government *IS* the problem. What accounts for free money with no responsibility has resulted in sky rocketing college costs. The tuition cost of Arizona State University, in a span of 7 years, has more than doubled. Yet inflation has been almost nil. Why does it rise?? Because they are still filling the classrooms with students and can. It's amazing how motivating it is to cut costs when you don't have an endless supply of people with the ability to pay whatever you charge.

And yet, there are people like my daughter who graduates this year at the age of 28 with a 4 year degree in biology, and heavy into genetic engineering. She is interning at the Mayo clinic and involved in cancer research and genetic engineering and will graduate with zero debt, except for a house payment. No car loan, no credit cards, no student loans. She got a job in high school, saved money, then got another job when she got out of high school that paid a lot better (yes .. they do exist.) Then she went to work part time, and later full time as she was able to increase her income. I only paid for one semester, and I think her grandmother paid for a couple more. To be fair, I offered to pay for one semester a year, but she wouldn't ask for it after the first one. She was determined to pay for it herself.

When she started going, tuition was only a couple grand a semester. And she lived at home. She got married a couple of years ago, and she and her husband (who also has no college debt and is due to graduate this year with his doctorate) were able to buy a house and pay less than most would for rent.

If the college experience means going tens of thousands into debt, maybe we are sending the wrong message. Just living at home could cut 50% off of student loans.

It is possible to go to college without getting loans. Maybe we should only let people smart enough to figure it out go to college.

Re:Wrong target (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498237)

huh. all i read is blame, blame blame blame. oh and there was something
about being rich, elitist and entitled in there, too. sort of lost your point
of pumping money into a system by something like le chatelier's principle
makes prices go up. i agree with that tiny bit.

look, i think it's obvious that the for-profits are getting a bigger dropout rate.
they attract students who are trying to pull themselves out of wall-mart jobs
and get something that they can live off of.

i don't see any data presented that says that says that this is an intelligence
issue, but you lean on that. i see a big reliance on moral hazard argument,
which almost by definition don't have any data either.

until i do see such data, i'm willing to give folks the benefit of the doubt.
especially people who are trying for something better than wall*mart.

Re:Wrong target (1)

thaylin (555395) | about 5 months ago | (#46498573)

If you go to a community college you can get an associates degree, and then you can typically find a 4 year that will accept you, even for online classes.

Re:Wrong target (1)

nitehawk214 (222219) | about 5 months ago | (#46498971)

If you go to a community college you can get an associates degree, and then you can typically find a 4 year that will accept you, even for online classes.

And an associate degree is just as vaulable from a community college as a major school, and costs 1/10 as much. In most areas, if you are a working adult that lives in the city the college is in, you go practically for free. Once there you can transfer to a 4-year school for a bachelors and effectively save half your cost on education.

need to drop the college for all idea and stop job (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46498241)

need to drop the college for all idea and stop jobs from asking for a degree for jobs that don't need it / are better off with some kind of tech / trades school (and not being asking for an 2-4+ year one as well).

What will we do want jobs want masters or better and what happens when they get people loaded with theory / class room only and still having skill gaps??

What is "college" supposed to be, anyway? (2)

swb (14022) | about 5 months ago | (#46498569)

1) A system of education designed to produce a graduate with a broad yet substantive grasp of human knowledge in art, literature, humanities and basic sciences?

2) A system of education designed to promote a commanding, in-depth knowledge of a specific discipline like engineering, law, medicine or physical science?

3) A vocational system designed to produce employment-ready workers with a sound working knowledge of a specific area of business or government?

4) A finishing system where young people learn the social skills and cultural knowledge necessary to aspire to the elite class of society? While it sounds free from anything like education, these things may require things we do consider education, like learning foreign languages to demonstrate worldliness, and where political history is personally embodied in the elites themselves (aristocracy and nobility), and where proper social manners may be barely distinguishable from what passes for politics and diplomacy.

I think it's mostly grown to be 3 and 4. You go to college to study an occupational field so you can get a job. It's different than 2 because you're not studying as nearly in depth. Accounting isn't mathematics. Before the 1960s you belonged to a fraternal organization to learn to participate in formal society as an adult. After the 1960s its where you go to experiment, find yourself and in practical terms learn to live on your own (pay rent, feed yourself, etc). In more expensive schools there is still a strong emphasis on the social component both from tradition and from aspirational goals of joining some of your fellow students' elite socioeconomic class.

I think for most of the past few hundred years its mainly been 1 & 4, with a strong emphasis on four. When we began indulging girls in education, college was a fine place to find a suitor of suitable class and ambition. But for all, a solid grounding in the liberal arts was socially useful, eliminated provincialism and promoted useful skills in basic mathematics and literacy.

The in-depth education of 2 probably started out ecclesiastically as the means to produce priests and preserve religious knowledge and church canon. Not until the enlightenment and the industrial revolution were most of these subjects studied with any rigor. Until mathematics was applied, engineering was just skilled trades like carpentry, stonemasons and blacksmiths.

Re:need to drop the college for all idea and stop (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about 5 months ago | (#46498593)

The problem is not that jobs need it or not but HR and hiring manager use the fact that you have a degree to as an indicator of a few things:

1) You are able to stick with a project for a long period of time and see it through
2) You are able to accept and complete tasks that seem and probably are arbitrary and pointless because someone says do it.
3) You can take a set of instructions and fill in the blanks on your own and run with it, with something less than constant supervision.

There really is no better indicator of the above available. You might be able to accurately assess that stuff in an interview and you might not. A bad hire can be a costly mistake for a business. There are enough candidates for any given job with a degree right now, there exists no good reasons to gamble on someone without one.

In the current job market I would NEVER consider a candidate without a degree for anything a position above "cleaner" because there is no reason to take the chance, what you have a degree in is less of a concern though. You want to interview for an IT operations job and your degree is in "20th Century Art History" that is not necessarily a problem.

Re:need to drop the college for all idea and stop (1)

Chaos Incarnate (772793) | about 5 months ago | (#46498725)

So between someone with no experience but a degree, and someone with 5+ years experience (at the same company) and no degree, you'd still opt for the degree-bearer?

I would have thought the work experience would show that they can do #1 and #2, and probably #3 as well...

Re:need to drop the college for all idea and stop (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46498747)

what about 2 year degrees?

Trades schools?

NON degree classes?

Do you pass them over?

Re:need to drop the college for all idea and stop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498797)

To pass an Art History class at a decent school you need to 1) memorize a shitload of information, i.e. on the exam they show you a slide and you have to identity the artist, time period, movement, etc. 2) write effectively and quickly, as there will often be weekly papers due and a final research paper as well and 3) know something about aesthetics and design, which is going to help in any business that involves selling things to people...A degree shows the person has at least a minimum of writing skills, can find foreign countries on a map, understands something about math etc. when you hire a "selt-taught" you have clue how far the depths of that person's stupidity may go.

Re:need to drop the college for all idea and stop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498919)

You forgot the tried and true method of bribing the art teacher. Or fucking them.

Re:need to drop the college for all idea and stop (1)

Sarius64 (880298) | about 5 months ago | (#46498775)

It is too bad that HRs are filled with lazy MBA dropouts that simple put "college degree" at the start of every position description. Added onto that all of the colleges telling people that most professional jobs hold that standard as a minimum entry standard. Most of the time, I'd rather take any kid exiting the military for an entry-level position as they normally have more instilled for any job requirement(s).

Re:Wrong target (4, Informative)

olsmeister (1488789) | about 5 months ago | (#46498247)

Not only that, but student loans are one of the few types of debt that are not normally discharged in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy filing. It's pretty much with you for life. You'd be better off putting your tuition on a credit card than taking out a student loan for it. Starting off that far in the whole with student loans is one of the worst mistakes you can make, unless you really understand what you are taking on.

Re:Wrong target (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498303)

Bullshit.

She was probably turning tricks.

Re:Wrong target (-1, Flamebait)

codepigeon (1202896) | about 5 months ago | (#46498329)

Maybe we should only let people smart enough to figure it out go to college

Fuck you and your holier than thou attitude. Your touching story is a great example of how in america, if you just work hard enough, just try, you will win in the end. You will be debt free with a husband and a house, working at the Mayo clinic.

La - de - fucking - da. Your story represents about 1% of america bud. Its a fucking fantasy and not even possible for most people. Maybe all us 'stupid' people should just be put down like rabid dogs, so we don't tarnish your perfect world. Come down off your Ivory Tower and meet the rest of the people in your society you self righteous ass hat.

Re:Wrong target (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498429)

The 'Everybody's gotta go to college' trend is just nonsense to begin with. I didn't want to go to college, so I self-educated and found an employer who would accept that. Lots of people either wouldn't fit in in a formal education environment (like me), or don't have what it takes. That's fine. Making it too easy (like now) for all these people to go to college and university will just end up with the colleges and universities lowering their standards, making the education worse for all, and the tuition higher.

Re:Wrong target (1)

thaylin (555395) | about 5 months ago | (#46498737)

Many people would prefer not to have to search long and hard for someone to accept self education, besides which most jobs that allow that start you out at high school drop out wages, and will take you longer to work out to the just out of college pay.

Re:Wrong target (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498713)

There really needs +1 Golf clap mod.

Re:Wrong target (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498791)

Yeah no shit. I'm one of the people he puts on a pedestal for working their balls off to avoid student debt and his story begs tons of questions about what information he left out.
-Did his wife divorce his holier-than-thou-ass so his daughter was able to receive Pell Grants?
-Was her parent's income super-low? Did they lie on FAFSA?
-How much of her education was carried by her husband?
-Did he let his daughter live at home?
-Buy her a car?
-Pay for her health insurance/car insurance/cell phone/internet?
-Did he pull strings with a friend to get her a job out of highschool?
-What was this job doing exactly?
-Was a GI Bill involved?
-Was her husband Military?
-Did he help her with the down-payment on the house?
-Did his daughter receive government subsidies to become a first-time home-owner?
-Did his "status" in life help his daughter receive these subsidies?
-Were there benefits received as a result of being a minority or woman?(If she was a woman studying STEM and it took her 10 years to pay for school with all the "Scientists need lady-coworkers" money flying around then she was doing it wrong)
-Did she have children?
-Did she receive government money for being a single mother?
-What state was this and how much was tuition per credit hour?

I've lived in states where the tuition was 300% higher than the one I live now for both Community College & State Schools. Would have taken his daughter 30 years to make the same educational progress in Oregon if she was paying for school in California.

Bottom line, if she didn't receive government assistance to get there, she wasn't as smart as you think she was, and if she did: you're a hypocrite for bemoaning the availability of assistance for people from different backgrounds.

Re:Wrong target (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498505)

Why are you blaming students when you say the problem is greedy colleges overcharging. This government proposal targets the greedy colleges. Students are held accountable to their loans more than any other type of loan. This proposal does nothing to change that but also starts to hold colleges accountable for their greed.

Re:Wrong target (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498655)

I went to a leading techonology school, got *no* help from my folks because I walked out the door at age 16 for other reasons. I was *awash* in loan debt. because it was one of the most expensive schools in the world. Most of my professors were stunning: many of them wrote the leading texts in the fields, many had active patents Overall, it was worth every penny, and led me into some amazing research, and took me more than 10 years to pay off all the loans. ( I was in research for the next 15 years: the pay sucked, and a lot of us were groaning from the loan payments. But the National Institute of Health got 3 good hardware out of my work, it was all good investment.)

But dear lord, the number of my colleagues who burned roughly a quarter of a million dollar at a 4 year school and who never used their degree for real work are *scary*. They changed fields, "pursued their lifestyles" and switched to advanced underwater basket weaving at *3 different grad schools*, and they hang out at science fiction conventions or parties where they can see their old friends and pretend that their education makes them matter. And oh, dear lord, the whinging about "diversity issues" when the real reason they can't keep a job is because they *won't do the work*, especially when they've put on 200 pounds and can barely waddle their way to the keyboard to spend their day online.

Most of these folks are identifiable. They spend more of their time at school worrying about the "milieu", and now they're spending their time in chat rooms instead of studying. *Make them pay the loans*, and make the schools responsible for the loans so they stop *hosting* these freeloaders and kick them out much, much ffaster as serious fiscal risks. i don't want to see these people showing up with their degrees and applying against me, or against people who actually work, to get the same jobs. You want a 4 year degree? You *earn* it!

Re:Wrong target (4, Interesting)

AthanasiusKircher (1333179) | about 5 months ago | (#46498691)

Continue to hold the student accountable. They're the ones that were too stupid to go to a college and get a degree for a job good enough to pay it off. And too stupid to figure out debt v/s income ratios. And maybe their parents if they were involved in the stupid decision to send their kids to college without a means to pay for it.

Your repetition of the phrase "too stupid" seems to imply some sort of innate cognitive dysfunction.

But I think what you really mean is that they don't have the necessary experience and skills to evaluate basic financial math decisions, right? I mean, except for the small percentage of people with actual cognitive impairments, most people should be able to figure this out, right?

So, then you have to ask yourself: how is it that we require students generally to take 11-12 years of mathematics in this country, but they somehow graduate without basic financial math skills to survive in the world?

I taught high school math and science for a few years, so I know the curriculum and debates first-hand. I can tell you about the 140 or so students I was teaching my first year -- mostly high-school juniors and seniors in algebra II (likely the last math class they would ever take in their lives for most). And one day I tried giving them a simple application problem involving compound interest: only 2 out of the 140 students actually knew what compound interest was.

According to the state-mandated curriculum, I had no time to teach them the basics of math that would help them to survive in the real world, but at that point I decided I needed to carve out a few weeks and do at least a little of that... even if it meant some of the scores on our official testing would be a little lower. I can tell you that most teachers probably don't even have time or initiative to do that.

So... with situations like this, you have to ask yourself: how can we expect these "too stupid" students to evaluate basic financial situations when they don't even know fundamental ideas like compound interest, let alone how it might apply to loans or investments or whatever?

Of course, I agree with you that some of the blame should be placed on the students and their parents. But I do think we need to recognize that we require kids to spend over a decade in public schools, and many of them are leaving without fundamental numerical skills to make decisions in the real world.

So are they really "too stupid" or were they just never taught basic numeracy?

Re:Wrong target (1)

Sarius64 (880298) | about 5 months ago | (#46498945)

Excellent post, mate.

Universities are a money grubbing cult (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498187)

We all know they're a business, but the cult aspect is "I went to university, and even though I rarely use what I learned, I will only employ people who went through the same crap I did.". A cult. End of story.

How about we disband the Dept of Education? (3, Insightful)

stevegee58 (1179505) | about 5 months ago | (#46498193)

There is no justifiable federal role in education. Education has traditionally been and should be locally managed.
We don't need more regulation surrounding student loans, we need less. In fact there shouldn't be any federal student loans at all.

Re:How about we disband the Dept of Education? (1)

houghi (78078) | about 5 months ago | (#46498583)

In fact there shouldn't be any federal student loans at all.

I agree with this if you look at it from the point of view that education is a right, not a privelage.

Unfortunatly that means some sort of governement involvement. To me that means there will be quota. So not everybody will get the opportunity to go. And not everybody will enlist in what they like. You want to do philosophy and arts and what not? OK, we need X amount of those. You do not qualify, next.

That would mean that you need no loan that you will unlikely be able to pay back.

You want to do Computer Science? Not with the knowledge you have now. You will not be able to get a job.

This is obviously the opposite of 'No child left behind'. It should be "Each child to the best of their abilities.' Some are better at welding, others are better at programming. Just like in sports, we are not all able to achieve the same. In sports it is because of build.

Yes, there will be exceptions. That is a fact of life. Some would have been better of with another system.
Also the current debt per student is on average 27.000USD. That is a LOT of money if the outcome of a job is not so sure. Not only will you have no job, but you will have no job AND a debt of 27.000USD that puts a disadvatage over people who just have no job.

People are waiting for this bubble to burst. It is now a 830 billion USD. debt. [healthcare...ration.com]

And even when you get a job, you need to pay back that loan and that will put many people into a situation where they can not afford healthcare. Nice way to make people slaves.

What we need is just a law passed where people in debt are no longer allowed to vote as they are not contributing to society.

Re:How about we disband the Dept of Education? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498597)

Yes! Forgive all student loans!

Re:How about we disband the Dept of Education? (4, Insightful)

Rich0 (548339) | about 5 months ago | (#46498687)

Education is primarily a social welfare program. Social welfare programs generally don't work if they are localized to jurisdictions that have free trade and immigration. States are required by the constitution to have both - the only reason that state-level primary education works is that the federal government sets uniform standards and will deny substantial funds to any state that violates them.

If you make education purely a state-level system then there will be a race to the bottom. Employers will flee states that have generous education programs in favor of minimalist states that have lower taxes.

Socialism of any kind can really only work at the national level. Employers can't easily flee countries, because they would then become subject to tariffs when selling back to that country. Granted, the US of late has backed free trade, which is why all the manufacturing jobs are going to countries where you can fire workers who get injured on the job and dump your pollution wherever you like.

Re:How about we disband the Dept of Education? (1)

stevegee58 (1179505) | about 5 months ago | (#46498739)

Which part of the US Constitution mandates education?

Re:How about we disband the Dept of Education? (0)

Rich0 (548339) | about 5 months ago | (#46498813)

Which part of the US Constitution mandates education?

None. The constitution practically forbids socialism of any kind as it is written.

Re:How about we disband the Dept of Education? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498767)

Are you trolling or are you a moron? Higher education absolutely has to be recognized across state boundaries. Let every state, nay let every county and municipality and Dumbfuckville regulate their colleges and universities. To hell with standards! Got a degree from Harvard? Not recognized here, our own Oklahoma State diploma is the gold standard in this neck of the woods. Buyer beware amirite?

Re:How about we disband the Dept of Education? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498833)

Don't crush his dreams of a libertarian utopia :(

degrees vs schools. Art history degree? (3, Insightful)

raymorris (2726007) | about 5 months ago | (#46498203)

TFA and TFS don't make it quite clear - would the SCHOOL lose eligibility, or a specific degree plan? If a student gets a degree in art history or women's studies that probably won't do much for their employment prospects, regardless of whether the school is good or not.

Re:degrees vs schools. Art history degree? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498453)

TFA and TFS don't make it quite clear - would the SCHOOL lose eligibility, or a specific degree plan? If a student gets a degree in art history or women's studies that probably won't do much for their employment prospects, regardless of whether the school is good or not.

I've never heard of art history or women's studies being taught at this type of school. We're not talking colleges and universities here. We're talking tech schools. The ones "below" community colleges.

Tighten up federal aid (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498219)

I think they're going around the problem backwards. In my opinion, there is a very large % of the college student population who is driven to college due to
A) They found a great way to hang out with friends and continue 'high school'
B). Get out from under Mom and Dad's thumb
C). Family/peer pressure

who do not want to go to college for a higher degree. This segment of the population is of no use at college and basically wastes the time of our educators, their parents money, and federal aid money and come out with a degree that makes them stupider or more useless than when they went in.

College isn't for everyone. Society requires people at all levels, yes I need that burger flipper, the garbage man, the plumber, gardner, etc, multiple positions which are not aimed at college degrees. Our system is getting much more to having the expectation that EVERYONE gets a college degree when a good part of those pushed to college can't handle or don't want to take a useful college degree. (my apologies to English majors, but I do not think we need THAT many English majors in society as we're pumping out, some yes, as many as I see, no)

To be more efficient in federal college loans, we need to tighten up the standards on who actually gets the loans. Those who will gain value from a college education and bring value to society. Those who can't or don't want to do a 4 year college can be encouraged towards tech school (good ones). Yes, we need good electricians, plumbers, welders, etc. Those jobs don't require a college degrees and are extremely useful in both residential and industrial jobs (and expensive due to the lack of supply for them).

TLDR: Stop giving loans to those who come out of college a burden to society.

College == vaocaitonal training. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498491)

my apologies to English majors, but I do not think we need THAT many English majors in society as we're pumping out, some yes, as many as I see, no

I'm not an English major as I'll soon prove and I agree with you.

However, college has gone from furthering one's education into vocational training. Years ago I read a book (forgive, but I cannot remember the title to cite) that stated that if you do not have a Liberal Arts or Science degree, then you are not educated: you have vocational training. Engineering, Business, Law, Medicine, Plumbing, Auto Mechanics .... are all trades. I guess for us middle class people (and poorer) that's what college is about these days. The rich get the luxury of being educated because their bills are being covered by Mom and Dad.

To be educated allows for flexibility in thinking and analysis - on all aspects of life.

An engineer looks at the World from an engineer's view. A business person looks at the World from a business perspective.

We disparage the liberal arts majors here, but I think our society would be quite bleak and even more superficial than it is without the Art History, English, History, Philosophy, Sociology, Russian Lit. etc .... majors.

It's a sad World we live in that we are spiraling down to Third World thinking.

Third World countries want and need the engineers to catch up with the West and everyone else is relegated to nothing.

We are going backwards in the US.

Re:College == vaocaitonal training. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498543)

Years ago I read a book (forgive, but I cannot remember the title to cite) that stated that if you do not have a Liberal Arts or Science degree, then you are not educated

Yes, because a piece of paper determines how intelligent or educated you are, and if you don't have the right piece of paper (which seems to be determined by people who themselves lack critical thinking skills), then you're also not educated.. Such great insight!

To be educated allows for flexibility in thinking and analysis - on all aspects of life.

That's quite vague, but just what I would expect. But of course, the only way to achieve this vague goal is to have a liberal arts or science degree.

I don't think it matters what book it is, because it sounds like garbage. Mentioning its name would only give it attention it doesn't deserve, assuming what you said about it is right.

Re:College == vaocaitonal training. (1)

thaylin (555395) | about 5 months ago | (#46498773)

Actually having that piece of paper tends to show that you are educated. It does not mean that only people who have that paper are educated, however those people tend to have nothing to prove they are educated. If I am looking for an educated person do I take the chance on someone who at least has a piece of paper from an accredited school that says hey this person is educated, or the guy who walks in and has nothing to show that he is educated?

Re:College == vaocaitonal training. (1)

gIobaljustin (3526197) | about 5 months ago | (#46498847)

Actually having that piece of paper tends to show that you are educated.

I've noticed no such correlation, and especially so in the workforce. My employer doesn't, either; he turns away a grand majority of people with degrees.

But what that was really about is illogical elitism. "If you don't have a degree in X or Y, you're not educated." Regardless of your opinions on pieces of paper, such statements are ridiculous.

If I am looking for an educated person do I take the chance on someone who at least has a piece of paper from an accredited school that says hey this person is educated, or the guy who walks in and has nothing to show that he is educated?

Again, you act as if a piece of paper indicates that someone is educated. My employer actually takes the time to evaluate people's skills to see if they're educated, which seems like a better approach.

If you don't have time for that, I would suggest getting rid of people who obviously don't know what they're doing, and then discarding people from your list of possible educated people at random. It would probably bring better results, anyway.

Re:College == vaocaitonal training. (1)

thaylin (555395) | about 5 months ago | (#46498905)

Actually having that piece of paper tends to show that you are educated.

I've noticed no such correlation, and especially so in the workforce. My employer doesn't, either; he turns away a grand majority of people with degrees.

But what that was really about is illogical elitism. "If you don't have a degree in X or Y, you're not educated." Regardless of your opinions on pieces of paper, such statements are ridiculous.

If I am looking for an educated person do I take the chance on someone who at least has a piece of paper from an accredited school that says hey this person is educated, or the guy who walks in and has nothing to show that he is educated?

Again, you act as if a piece of paper indicates that someone is educated. My employer actually takes the time to evaluate people's skills to see if they're educated, which seems like a better approach.

If you don't have time for that, I would suggest getting rid of people who obviously don't know what they're doing, and then discarding people from your list of possible educated people at random. It would probably bring better results, anyway.

Nice fallacy.. I never stated that someone with a piece of paper IS educated, I showed that it tends to show they are, and is better than not having one. Your employer may attempt to evaluate if they are educated but he cannot fully do so. He can see if someone is educated in a very tiny area, but that does not show that they are fully educated on the subject.

Re:Tighten up federal aid (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498545)

I graduated HS and went to college for marketing because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. After partying my way through a semester and a half I had earned all of 3 credits (passed one class). I basically pissed away several thousand dollars of my parents and my money because I was doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing. It didn't work out.

A couple years later I went to trade school for land surveying and then went to a nationally prominent school of mines for a geology degree. I can tell you that the idea of a BS in Geology has opened the doors for me, but the actual applied education of the AAS in Land Surveying has served me far better than the education behind the geology degree. I make more working as a cartographer than I could as a geologist, but the geology degree is the only reason I got the interview, but the skills I am using are related to the surveying degree.

I have never, never (for emphasis) had a problem finding decent paying employment with a background in surveying. I'm currently contemplating starting a masters program in a GIS related field.

I guess the point is, I have been in school on and off for almost 15 years at this point. The first couple were a complete waste because I had no idea what I wanted to do. I personally feel that working and attending a community college for general studies for the transfer degree is the best way not to accumulate ridiculous amounts of debt while giving someone the opportunity to figure out what they want to do and learn that the world isn't going to give them anything cause they are "special".

Looking at it wrong (2)

codepigeon (1202896) | about 5 months ago | (#46498269)

What this tells me, is that there is clearly a demand that is not being met by 'traditional' colleges/universities. These schools offer people a chance at a diploma that they can put on their resume. If you don't have that piece of paper on your resume, you are not even going to get an interview regardless of how knowledgeable you are in the field (unless you have a contact inside the company already).

These schools give people, who maybe got off to a bad start, a chance to go to classes in the evenings, it is a path for those students who were not necessarily 'good' at school and would score poorly on an ACT or SAT test. When more and more of the jobs those people used to get go overseas or to mexico, they have to have some way into the 'new' economy. Either that or they find a way to game the system with welfare/disability (or get stuck forever in working poverty). They have to live, they have to feed their families. These schools offer them a way to do that. (or more likely, the false hope that they can do that)

I think the traditional colleges need to take notice and start offering programs that mimic what these for-profit schools offer. Flexible schedules for adult students, shorter paths to a certificate or diploma, etc. Side note: aren't all colleges 'for profit'? I see the million dollar salaires of university presidents, massive coffers, and multi-billion dollar sport franchises and have to think that they are all 'for-profit'; the profit just goes in different directions.

why does party or sports schools look better then? (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46498325)

why does party or sports schools look better then then the tech schools that don't have that BS and tech real skills?

some of the sports schools are very lax on classes for people on the football team (the team is full time in season and part time off season)

why can't there be a minor league for football and basketball?

Re:Looking at it wrong (1)

Registered Coward v2 (447531) | about 5 months ago | (#46498485)

What this tells me, is that there is clearly a demand that is not being met by 'traditional' colleges/universities. These schools offer people a chance at a diploma that they can put on their resume. If you don't have that piece of paper on your resume, you are not even going to get an interview regardless of how knowledgeable you are in the field (unless you have a contact inside the company already).

The problem is many of these programs simply are designed to make money, not teach students and prepare them for a job. Employers know what degrees are basically worthless; resulting in people with student debt and still poor job prospects. Take away the loans that provide the revenue for non-performing schools will make them go away and help those that actually do provide value for the money.

These schools give people, who maybe got off to a bad start, a chance to go to classes in the evenings, it is a path for those students who were not necessarily 'good' at school and would score poorly on an ACT or SAT test. When more and more of the jobs those people used to get go overseas or to mexico, they have to have some way into the 'new' economy. Either that or they find a way to game the system with welfare/disability (or get stuck forever in working poverty). They have to live, they have to feed their families. These schools offer them a way to do that. (or more likely, the false hope that they can do that)

Given the statistics cited in TFA, false hope is exactly the problem. Their advertising is aimed at those desperate for a better job, they promise one and then don't deliver. There is nothing inherently wrong with a for profit school. I know someone who taught for years at an automotive trade school; one that actually placed their graduates in good jobs because they had the basic skills, could pass the ASE exam, and were competent basic mechanics. They used to offer just a high school dropout a path to a good job, one that would let them repay any debt and earn a living.

I think the traditional colleges need to take notice and start offering programs that mimic what these for-profit schools offer. Flexible schedules for adult students, shorter paths to a certificate or diploma, etc. Side note: aren't all colleges 'for profit'? I see the million dollar salaires of university presidents, massive coffers, and multi-billion dollar sport franchises and have to think that they are all 'for-profit'; the profit just goes in different directions.

Many colleges offer just that, especially community/junior colleges and regional schools. I agree that not for profit doesn't mean we can't make and spend boatloads of money.

Re:Looking at it wrong (1)

thaylin (555395) | about 5 months ago | (#46498667)

That is what CCs do. CCs dont care about your SATs, they give you a small test to see if you need remedial classes. They care typically cheap and prepare you for work, of if you get a transfer degree, advancement to a 4 year.

Ping? (1)

wjcofkc (964165) | about 5 months ago | (#46498333)

These are the sorts of aborted attempts at schools that produce "graduates" with a stack of certifications yet who somehow don't even know what the ping command is. Countless times I have encountered these individuals only to be shocked that despite the year or more they spend in these places I have literally had to instruct them on how to use the basics like ping, traceroute, ip/ifconfig, etc... and then how to use such things to perform basic troubleshooting. How someone obtain an A+, Network+, and more and not know these things is beyond me.

Around the turn of the millennium I briefly attended one such school. I ended up doing more teaching than the teachers, quickly realized it was a scam and dropped out. That particular tech-school was later sued out of existence for making promises they could not deliver on.

This is why I despise the majority of technical certifications: they either measure knowledge or they don't - you can't always tell right away. It can be a matter of learning the material and rightfully passing the exam, or merely learning how to take the exam. I sometimes contemplate teaching a class in Linux so I can teach it right, but then again I would not want to be associated with such an institution.

minor league for football & basketball or trad (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 5 months ago | (#46498335)

minor league for football & basketball or let them take trades / tech school classes even if they need to go to a different school to take the classes.

only a few years ago... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498369)

I first heard about this problem of colleges finding hopeful simpletons, knowingly counseling them into something they couldn't afford and would likely fail at, and laughing all the way to the bank, while the student is left with undischargable debt. The problem is already being addressed. If progressives keep shutting down dishonest businessmen this fast, it'll get too hard to scam a buck from fools anymore. Then what will crooked douchbags do?

Inflated cost of education (1)

amightywind (691887) | about 5 months ago | (#46498393)

Funny. The leftists in academia make me laugh. Show me a college that is not for profit. It is the free flowing financial aid that inflates the cost of education.

Re:Inflated cost of education (1)

thaylin (555395) | about 5 months ago | (#46498695)

How about the UNC system of schools? Most state run schools are not "for profit" IE, they dont look to make money, only survive. Or does your definition of profit not match up with the dictionary version of profit?

Re:Inflated cost of education (1)

Sarius64 (880298) | about 5 months ago | (#46498805)

Funny. The leftists in academia make me laugh. Show me a college that is not for profit. It is the free flowing financial aid that inflates the cost of education.

Apologies that someone modded you down mate. A clearer truth could not have been spoken.

Education != Employment (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498503)

Why do they always have to tie education and employment? University is for study of the "Arcane Arts" and advancing the pool of knowledge, it is not a place to learn a trade that will lead to employment.

Medicine, Engineering and other higher level application of knowledge degrees need to be removed from university studies and made some sort of Applied Knowledge School then Universities can go back to being what they really are, places of knowledge and not be drafted into diploma-mill-that-is-expected-to-lead-to-a-job.

This current state is all part of the "value-for-money" process where "investment" in education leads to a "return" in salary income later on. There is no quest for knowledge in that, there is only a quest for the almighty dollar.

Re:Education != Employment (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498553)

Absolutely. I just wrapped up a class in classical literature and it taught me about morality, history and aesthetics, things you just don't get out of a numbers crunching job training kind of class. Honestly, something about that iOS programming class from Stanford on iTunes makes me a little sad. Kids at Stanford are wasting 3 credit hours learning programming tricks for the iPhone? Come on, how did college get reduced to this...

Re:Education != Employment (1)

thaylin (555395) | about 5 months ago | (#46498707)

The problem is that the for profit schools talked about in this do nothing to further then general pool of knowledge as well, and advertise helping people get a job, which they dont.

Bad Colleges (1)

Jim Sadler (3430529) | about 5 months ago | (#46498511)

The for profit colleges are suspicious to most people. There are so many gimmick type colleges out there that unless a degree is from a known and long standing, brick and mortar college employers probably see the degrees as nonsense. And frankly they usually are nonsense. And even if the for profit school is sort of real they are much like your local doughnut shop. They want you there a lot! In other words if you are picking a kid's pocket you simply make sure that he is happy and give him good grades no matter how dumb he is. Treat him nice and let him think he is being educated and you can pick that pocket for years to come. College should be limited to those who love academic pursuits, love studying and are somewhat willing to suffer to learn. College is not a trade school and is not designed to be a path to employment.

Simple fix (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498529)

Expect a lot of "Tech Schools" to add a new mandatory class that is almost impossible to enroll in unless you already have a job in the field. Then they can claim such great placement rates.

The companies that run these schools will spend plenty to make sure their cash cow keeps producing, even to the detriment to the everybody else.

Refunds? (5, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | about 5 months ago | (#46498555)

How about forcing them to refund tuition to people they lied to in order to get them to sign up?

Re:Refunds? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498581)

First rule of Acquisition

1. Once you have their money, never give it back

Teabagger question (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498677)

When exactly did Slashdot get filled up with so many hillbilly teabaggers?? I mean there's always been a strong libertarian presence here, but now this site is seriously infested with regressive anti-science baggers. Funny enough, few of them seem to have actual employment, so they post here 24/7. Is this why there seems to be so many? Did Faux News ever run any specials on Slashdot or something? I'm just wondering why so many baggers end up here.

Re:Teabagger question (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498721)

I don't think it's so much that there are more tea baggers, I think it's more that the smart people are leaving. This leaves the unemployed "self-educated and proud" types to spout their silly and hateful nonsense.

Re:Teabagger question (1)

gIobaljustin (3526197) | about 5 months ago | (#46498871)

As opposed to random ACs mocking these supposedly unemployed "teabaggers"?

Re:Teabagger question (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46498923)

It's Sunday you fucking jew, you know...a day of rest.

How does this compare ... (1)

jamesl (106902) | about 5 months ago | (#46498761)

... to not-for-profit institutions?

Perhaps public high schools should be held to the same standard. Like Charter Schools.

Why Attend? (1)

gpmanrpi (548447) | about 5 months ago | (#46498933)

Why would anyone rightly attend such an institution? As someone who has used community colleges to supplement my knowledge, and to get prerequisites for Medical School, this seems like a fools bargain for students. I mean community colleges, here in FL, are inexpensive, offer flexible class times, have convenient locations, etc. I went to an expensive engineering undergraduate institution (RPI), and some of these places charge pretty darn close to their tuition for an associates degree. The ROI on an engineering degree is sometimes doubtful, how does one repay 100k loans on a culinary arts degree, or cosmetology license? These programs are nothing more than a get rich quick scheme that only burden the student, with lifelong debt, and the tax-payer, with holding the bag on the interest, for a number of these loans when they are deferred. If we were half smart about these programs we would not pay into these institutions. A profession gives the student a lifetime of job security, and society a lifetime of higher tax revenues (not to mention the services of said student). We should be funding public institutions and not private ones, whenever possible- not throwing good money after bad at these trade schools run by bankers.
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