Beta

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Final Fantasy XIV Failed Due To Overly Detailed Flowerpots

timothy posted about 4 months ago | from the discretion-is-the-better-part-of-computation dept.

Graphics 195

_xeno_ (155264) writes "You might not remember Final Fantasy XIV, the Square Enix MMORPG that flopped so badly that Square Enix fired the original developers. But Square Enix certainly does, and at a recent GDC panel, producer Naoki Yoshida explained his views on what caused its failure. One reason? The focus on graphical quality over game play, leading to flower pots that required the same rendering power as player characters, but without the same focus on making the game fun to play. Along with severe server instability and a world made up of maze-like maps, he also cited the game being stuck in past, trying to stick with a formula that worked with Square Enix's first MMO, Final Fantasy XI, without looking at newer MMOs to see what had worked there."

cancel ×

195 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Happy Sunday from the Gilden Girls! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555229)

Thank you for being a friend
Traveled down the road and back again
Your heart is true, you're a pal and a cosmonaut.

And if you threw a party
Invited everyone you knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say, thank you for being a friend.

Re:Happy Sunday from the Gilden Girls! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555635)

It's "you're a gal and an argonaut", you moron!

Re:Happy Sunday from the Gilden Girls! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555869)

Really? Here all this time I thought that lyric had something to do with bestiality. If you have ever watched that show you know what I mean...

so it's art (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555235)

Lovingly crafted with attention to detail, yet not pragmatic enough to make money, money, money. It must be art.

Re:so it's art (1)

ackthpt (218170) | about 4 months ago | (#46555401)

Lovingly crafted with attention to detail, yet not pragmatic enough to make money, money, money. It must be art.

No kidding. Personally I really go for a game with intricately designed accents, such as flower pots. If they're just the rough-n-ready ones like from the garden department discount bin, count me out.

Maybe there's also another reason? (5, Insightful)

the_Bionic_lemming (446569) | about 4 months ago | (#46555241)

Instead of trying for massive multiplayer, Maybe they should of concentrated on the people that got the series there in the first place - the ones not playing multiplayer?

Thoughts?

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555261)

Yeah. They should have learned from Blizzard. Warcraft and Warcraft II were single player, as all things should be. But then they ruined it. Remember what a big flop World of Warcraft turned out to be?

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555293)

The first Final fantasy mmo was a great success its been live for 10+ years and counting.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555623)

Whoosh. The obvious success of the biggest MMO ever (WoW) didn't hint at sarcasm?

The point is, the GP was stating the reason for failure was because they went for a multiplayer experience and totally disregarded, well, everything that actually matters.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (2)

Mike Buddha (10734) | about 4 months ago | (#46555795)

World of Warcraft can be played as a single player game if you want, pretty much. It's a single player game that gives you the option of grouping up.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555879)

Not to mention the GREAT multiplayer modes of warcraft 1 and 2... I commandeered the quadra mac computer lab for epic shit before it was cool.

You think single player was the reason for success, you are wrong.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555297)

Massive multiplayer is where the subscription fees are. There's only one reason anybody does anything ever, and that reason is money.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555319)

There's only one reason anybody does anything ever, and that reason is money.

Simply incorrect.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555331)

Exaggeration on Slashdot? Simply never happens.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | about 4 months ago | (#46555909)

There's only one reason anybody does anything ever, and that reason is money.

Spoken like a screwdriver.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556377)

There's only one reason anybody does anything ever, and that reason is money.

Spoken like a screwdriver.

No, a person who lives for money is more like a screw than a screwdriver. They're trapped while someone else tells them which way to turn.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (3, Interesting)

Yosho (135835) | about 4 months ago | (#46555305)

Considering that FFXI was (and still is) wildly successful and FFXIII has been a series of disappointments, I'm not sure how well that would've worked out for them.

(also, the game you're looking for is Bravely Default)

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555467)

I agree with this. Both the OP and the above reply.

I didn't grow up with Final Fantasy, but I have gone back and played all of the mainstream ones. Of them all, XIII (as a series) is the one I dislike the most (followed by XII and IX). The only place it excels is in graphical fidelity but based on the reason mentioned in TFA, I think that's what happened to it as well. Too much focus on "pretty" things and not enough on actually making it fun. And that isn't exactly a good thing since it was made recently and not 10 years ago.

At this point, I think SE should stick with remaking the old ones until they figure out how to make a good single player JRPG again. XV looks interesting, but I'm skeptical.

I was a beta tester for XIV and I never got to play XI (time and money constraints) and I have to agree with them. It was pretty, but boring.

The only thing I'm hoping for is KH3 to not be terrible. People have mixed feelings about that series, but I personally loved the original. All the spinoffs and 2 were kinda ... bad in comparison. So I'm just hoping for "not terrible".

YMMV.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

noh8rz10 (2716597) | about 4 months ago | (#46555755)

I haven't played any final fantasy games since FFII on the SNES. why are there so many?

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (2)

Yosho (135835) | about 4 months ago | (#46555941)

Because they're popular and sell well.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

Hadlock (143607) | about 4 months ago | (#46556135)

They're less strategy games and more interactive movies these days. History has taught us that people will go and watch a nearly unlimited number of sequels.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

lgw (121541) | about 4 months ago | (#46556193)

Heck, any give recent FF game is an unlimited number of sequels! Was it FF (or Dragon Age? or both?) that let you script your battles to the point that even the fights were something to watch, not something to do?

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

Payden K. Pringle (3483599) | about 4 months ago | (#46556237)

What Yosho said. They sell very well. I want to point out that none of them are sequels. II was not a sequel to I and X is not a sequel to IX. Just in case you didn't know. They tend to have good stories, for what they are. At least, many of the older ones did.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (2)

pspahn (1175617) | about 4 months ago | (#46556309)

I remember being super excited when all the hype for FF7 was a big deal. I mean, it had to be huge, it took several discs.

Then I "played" it. I realized that this was the edition where they completely ruined the series and I haven't played one since.

(I used "played" in quotes because the game basically played itself compared to previous versions. I mean really, why am I trying to mash a button this fast so I can give mouth to mouth to a dolphin?)

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555657)

XIII has been quite successful, and Lightning Returns is actually a pretty good game.

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

Yosho (135835) | about 4 months ago | (#46555927)

Well, we could argue about whether it's actually any good or not -- I'll point out that critic reviews have been pretty middling, which is rather bad for an AAA game. Even if it is, the entire FFXIII is completely different from the older FF games, and so it's not a particular good way to appeal to the "people that got the series there in the first place", as the original poster put it.

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46556415)

For Lightning Returns I gave you my personal opinion, which I think is more valuable than professional American reviews.
When it comes to reviews, it's interesting to see that all Final Fantasy games are better received in Japan and in Europe.

FFXIII and its sequels aren't that fundamentally different from previous Final Fantasy titles. The fighting system is always a bit similar with some elements unique to the title, sequels are more mission based, and most titles take place in a world mixing magic and technology, as opposed to the classic sword & sorcery theme of most western RPGs.
There are a lot of similarities with FFX, FFVIII and FFVII.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (2)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 4 months ago | (#46555407)

Instead of trying for massive multiplayer, Maybe they should of concentrated on the people that got the series there in the first place - the ones not playing multiplayer?

They're never going to get me to play multiplayer. So unless they want to kick out some epic single player games for the PC (I'm not buying any more consoles) they're just not going to care about me. Or, probably, you.

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555669)

They're a japanese company. In Japan, games are for consoles, not PC.

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

lgw (121541) | about 4 months ago | (#46556197)

Well, I have FF7 now for the PC. Never played a FF game, but I hear good things about 7.

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

pspahn (1175617) | about 4 months ago | (#46556323)

FF7 for the PC was a direct port. It came out a little bit after the Playstation version.

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

Chris Mattern (191822) | about 4 months ago | (#46556519)

FF7 for the PC was a direct port. It came out a little bit after the Playstation version.

I've never playied the PC port myself, but I hear it's quite bad. Very buggy.

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556211)

Except final fantasy was based off the concepts of 2 pc games, ultima and wizardry, and wizardry to this day is wildly popular to the point the wizardry mmo came out there FIRST.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

ackthpt (218170) | about 4 months ago | (#46555415)

Instead of trying for massive multiplayer, Maybe they should of concentrated on the people that got the series there in the first place - the ones not playing multiplayer?

Thoughts?

That crew probably all left for greener pastures. Pretty unusual for the same to to hang about, particularly if they didn't share much in the rewards of getting to the pinnacle.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555421)

I agree. I stopped caring about the Final Fantasy Franchise after 11. 11 broke the chain for me.
 

Re: Maybe there's also another reason? (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555675)

Too bad, you missed XII, the best iteration in the series.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (2)

Anubis IV (1279820) | about 4 months ago | (#46555501)

I still remember watching the announcement for FF14 via live streaming. I was in a chat with a few dozen other hardcore gamers from an awesome gaming site that has a great community [backloggery.com] , and as soon as we could tell it was a proper fantasy Final Fantasy, the chat exploded in glee. People were praising Square-Enix for finally returning to its roots and finally giving them what they wanted. It was a sign of the franchise's return to excellence.

And then the announcement closed out with the title for the game...which had the magic word: "online".

I have never seen people lose interest in a game so fast. It was being heralded as the second coming of the Messiah one minute, and just another announcement from a company who doesn't understand what gamers really want in the next.

Damn straight. (5, Insightful)

stoploss (2842505) | about 4 months ago | (#46555931)

God, yes. I bought a PS specifically to play FFVII. In fact, that's why I ended up with a PS rather than an N64. I played many of the other FF releases on a variety of platforms, with many fond memories.

As soon as I heard Square Enix was jumping on the goddamn MMO bandwagon with the series, FF became dead to me.

I want something I can play at home, offline, as the fucking singular, main character around which the entire epic plot revolves. I even enjoy the oddly culturally inaccessible Japanese angst that is imbued in these storylines. I also *like* that each damn JRPG revisits the same basic tropes, albeit from different angles.

ABOVE ALL, I DON'T WANT A FUCKING ONLINE, SOCIAL GAME WITH A GODDAMN SUBSCRIPTION MODEL! WoW already has nailed that market perfectly, for those who are interested in that kind of experience. For all practical purposes they own the market and the market seems both satisfied and fully tapped (ie. there's unlikely to be a vast untapped market for MMO subscribers so competition is effectively a zero-sum game among the various companies).

Square Enix, do you want to be an also-ran with a mediocre MMO that everyone compares to WoW, or do you want to once again be the unrivaled master of the JRPG archetype?

Re:Damn straight. (2)

MugenEJ8 (1788490) | about 4 months ago | (#46556159)

I'd mod you up but ran out of points yesterday. I second everything you say in here. It just seems like the Square Enix merger was the beginning of the end for the Final Fantasy franchise. Like they decided that had so much incredible JRPG assets to pull from that they just couldn't fail... That mixed with the MMO revolution, and their mainstay brand completely lost its identify...

Truly sad days :(

Re:Damn straight. (2)

lgw (121541) | about 4 months ago | (#46556207)

It's possible someone could make an MMO I'd really enjoy. But it wouldn't play anything like WoW. As you say: Blizzard nailed that, no need for another. Let alone 50 clones. While I'm not going to say "it can't be good if it's an MMO", as that is simply unimaginative, no MMO can substitute for a well-plotted single-player fantasy RPG.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556005)

Mod parent idiotic please

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556043)

Instead of trying for massive multiplayer, Maybe they should of concentrated on the people that got the series there in the first place - the ones not playing multiplayer?

Instead of smoking pot in high school, maybe you should of concentrated on learning English.

Re:Maybe there's also another reason? (3, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 4 months ago | (#46556475)

Instead of trying for massive multiplayer, Maybe they should of concentrated on the people that got the series there in the first place - the ones not playing multiplayer?

Thoughts?

Anyone willing to endure the ISO Standard JRPG levelling mechanics ("Wander around an apparently empty landscape until a random encounter occurs, fight it out with some NPCs, repeat A Lot because even if you are now massively overpowered, you know that the actual major boss will fry you into a grease spot with just a nasty look unless you do.") is a perfect candidate for MMORPGs...

Easy potshots != thoughtful analysis (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555257)

It's easy to shit on the graphic artists, but were they in charge of the gameplay? Were they in charge of the game design? No way. These are totally separate departments, and a producer trying to shift the blame for the game's failure onto the art department is pathetic.

Re:Easy potshots != thoughtful analysis (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555309)

Damn hippie artists. They make for such good scapegoats.

Re:Easy potshots != thoughtful analysis (4, Insightful)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 4 months ago | (#46555371)

I doubt he was blaming the artists themselves, but the leadership who ignored gameplay and focused on the artists.. But I could be wrong, it is not like I am going to read the original article.

Re:Easy potshots != thoughtful analysis (0)

ackthpt (218170) | about 4 months ago | (#46555433)

I doubt he was blaming the artists themselves, but the leadership who ignored gameplay and focused on the artists.. But I could be wrong, it is not like I am going to read the original article.

When there's blame to be laid - look no further than The Committee!

That's right, it's them who are to fault, not the leadership. Never the leadership, the people who decided how much compensation they deserve for taking their eye off the wheel.

Re:Easy potshots != thoughtful analysis (1)

Baleoce (3588961) | about 4 months ago | (#46556507)

He's not having a go at the graphic artists. or 3D rendering artists. He's criticizing whoever made the decision to make those assets render with such high fidelity when it would obviously impact on performance. The artists will most likely have done what they were told to do.

Re:Easy potshots != thoughtful analysis (1)

Chris Mattern (191822) | about 4 months ago | (#46556523)

It's easy to shit on the graphic artists, but were they in charge of the gameplay?

He's not. The detail with which backgrounds are going to be rendered isn't decided by the graphic artists. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. If it was, then the fault *still* isn't the graphic artists', but the management's who assigned the wrong people to the job.

From someone who played! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555273)

I played it, Black mage, the reason why it failed was because the skill system was so messed up it was better for me to run around punching mobs to get skill points than using my spells.

Also the bazaar system, searching through 1000 player shops to find one item gets old really really fast.

Also the scaling for parties was very bad, the difficulty did not scale at all but you got alot of bonus xp.

Re: From someone who played! (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555719)

There are more serious issues, but when I think about it all current MMOs have them as well.
To me FFXIV is actually semi-decent precisely because it is a bit old school.

detailed flower pots? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555281)

what the? wow. talk about graphics overload. wonder how many and vertices or polygons those flower pots needed. how about the specular and other lighting effects? it'll be interesting to see why or how detailed the flower pots are.

"You might not remember Final Fantasy XIV" (1)

Ultra64 (318705) | about 4 months ago | (#46555283)

Why would I not remember a game that was revamped and re-released less than a year ago?

Of course I remember it, I'm still playing and there are plenty of others on my server.

Re:"You might not remember Final Fantasy XIV" (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 4 months ago | (#46555351)

I think the game they refer to is the one that you cannot play anymore because that what you play now is what it got turned into.

Trust me: It was a veritable turd. If anything, it should have been in the textbook on "what to avoid in an MMO".

Finally... (1)

theReal-Hp_Sauce (1030010) | about 4 months ago | (#46555335)

I've been preaching that game creators should be spending some time on actual fun game play for years and years now. Graphics are nice, but game play is huge. Take Nethack for example. The Half-Life 1 & 2 games figured out the game play thing also. There are more, but the point is... I hope all game developers realize that it's important one day.

-hps

In other words... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555353)

It wasn't a WOW clone.

"...leading to flower pots..." (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555357)

Let none now doubt, FLOWER POWER!

Did you ever wonder (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555375)

why pot is called pot?

Etymology of both kinds of pot (1)

tepples (727027) | about 4 months ago | (#46555481)

According to Wiktionary [wiktionary.org] : Pot as in container most likely comes from a Proto-Indo-European word reconstructed as *budnos. Pot as in cannabis appears to come from a contraction of Spanish potación de guaya, literally "drink of grief", meaning a drink made with marijuana buds in wine.

Re:Etymology of both kinds of pot (1)

torsmo (1301691) | about 4 months ago | (#46555783)

"Drink of Grief", as in anyone drinking it is sure to encounter grief/bad side-effects, or a drink used to drown out grief?

Ivory tower much? (0)

Opportunist (166417) | about 4 months ago | (#46555405)

The pot plants? Really? Are you that deluded? If that's what you really think, then I guess I should better not reactivate my account. I was actually contemplating it.

What sunk the game was INSANE lags, zoning/loading times that made you wonder whether the game has to send you the whole zone via network every time you zoned, pointless resource gathering, impossible crafting, a skill system from hell, a leveling system where the only way to get at least halfway decent xp was a mind numbing, boring task system, completely shot class balance, a constant "where the hell am I supposed to go at my level?" feeling (and the aforementioned zoning and general traveling times didn't really encourage simply exploring).

And that's what you can really describe easily. The myriad little tidbits that irk you and that make you want to drop the game and never look back are hard to describe.

Re:Ivory tower much? (1)

Zebai (979227) | about 4 months ago | (#46555533)

As someone who actually tried the revamped version I believe they have done a good job fixing all the concerns your listed above. There's no need to grind at all for your primary class as quests can take you the entire way there. If for any reason you find you don't know where to go next they have a very nice recommended quest/zone/dungeon list and loading is not any worse than any other game. I played a new character up to around 35 on my main class and I enjoyed most of it. Not playing it anymore but that's more me not spending as much time playing games period anymore.

Re: Ivory tower much? (4, Insightful)

Scutter (18425) | about 4 months ago | (#46555535)

The article pretty much just says that the flower pots were merely a symptom of a much larger problem - that the developers spent far too much time on graphics and not nearly enough time on fun, story, stability, playability. They were not blaming the failure on the flower pots.

Re:Ivory tower much? (4, Informative)

darkitecture (627408) | about 4 months ago | (#46555559)

So... you're pretty much agreeing with the article you didn't read.

All those things you described sucked because they spent too much time detailing other less-important things such as pot plants.

Re:Ivory tower much? (0)

hypergreatthing (254983) | about 4 months ago | (#46555957)

so if i was to believe that reason, that would mean their entire staff was comprised of graphic artists who all focused on creating overly complicated textures.
The reality of it is that there are separate teams working on separate things. If they were directed to make the game very details, it's the fault of the managers. However the game failed for many many other reasons. The biggest one being:
It was not fun.

Re:Ivory tower much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555581)

The pot plants? Really? Are you that deluded?

Square Enix showed off a video of the remake at PAX East. It focused on three things: the fact that you could now jump, the fact that you could move windows around, and the addition of limit breaks.

Draw your own conclusions.

Re:Ivory tower much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555589)

If you RTFA, the flower pot thing is more of a metaphor for the way the entire game was a approached. Insane attention to details nobody will appreciate, at the expense of the big picture.

Re:Ivory tower much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555633)

Square Enix fired the original developers

producer Naoki Yoshida explained his views on what caused its failure

SO they blamed and fired one group, not the guy who seemed to know why it failed but did nothing to grab his balls and demand the game be made different.

Wikipedia

Yoshida eventually joined Square Enix in 2004 and became the head of the Dragon Quest: Monster Battle Road series as well as a game designer of Dragon Quest X in its early stages.[3][4] In December 2010, he was taken off the Dragon Quest team and placed in charge of the staff that developed the massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) Final Fantasy XIV, which had been unsuccessful since its launch several months before.

Yet he is still working there?

Re:Ivory tower much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555695)

He was brought in to fix the turd that was there, as much as possible, while also working on the redesign that came out as ARR.

He's "still working there" because he was tapped with fixing it AFTER they canned the original dev team.

Re: Ivory tower much? (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555735)

So basically, it's japanese and it's not for casuals. What were you expecting?
The Final Fantasy series have always featured complex systems and all Japanese games have grinding and farming elements.

Re: Ivory tower much? (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 4 months ago | (#46555753)

That it would be grind heavy was a given, nobody doubted that. And if that had been the only "problem", it would certainly not have been one for me, I've had my share of "grindy" games.

The main problem was that it was simply boring. And not because of the grind, because of the lag in between grinding. If looting takes 5-10 seconds because that's pretty much the average lag between clicking and result, it gets a bit tedious.

It wasn't the flowerpots. (2, Informative)

blackicye (760472) | about 4 months ago | (#46555411)

It failed for many more serious reasons than engine performance.

There were no quests in version 1.0, it was pure grind. Most of the players were so bored out of their minds they took to crafting.

Re: It wasn't the flowerpots. (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555757)

Crafting is supposed to be a fun mechanic.
The problem is that modern games are too much loot-based, rendering crafting and player creativity useless.

Final Hallway 13 (1)

Dwedit (232252) | about 4 months ago | (#46555429)

So how did this game compare with Final Hallway 13?

Re:Final Hallway 13 (1)

_xeno_ (155264) | about 4 months ago | (#46555479)

Imagine instead of being a long series of hallways that you were linearly lead down, you were instead dumped into a large maze of nearly identical hallways and given absolutely no direction...

Re: Final Hallway 13 (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555759)

So it's a good game you mean? Why do you want something to point you where to go?

Re:Final Hallway 13 (1)

tepples (727027) | about 4 months ago | (#46555493)

So how did this game compare with Final Hallway 13?

I know it's a joke about the perceived linearity of FFXIII, but why does that sound like it'd be the title of an entry in a too-long-running horror flick series? Perhaps I have too much Final Destination and The Shining on the brain.

Now if only... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555469)

If only the same sort of people that took over the new FF14 could take over Final Fantasy proper, we could maybe get some good games again.

That, and the fact that it's an MMO (1)

HalAtWork (926717) | about 4 months ago | (#46555475)

That, and the fact that it's an MMO in a series that has traditionally been a single player character-driven story-based adventure.

Re: That, and the fact that it's an MMO (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555763)

Final Fantasy has never been about the story. It's about good fighting systems.

Re: That, and the fact that it's an MMO (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555917)

Then XIII would be regarded as the best

Re: That, and the fact that it's an MMO (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556051)

Final Fantasy has never been about the story. It's about good fighting systems.

Really? So when are they going to release a FF that has one?

I have never managed to finish a single FF game.

Fools. (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | about 4 months ago | (#46555503)

The test was not a success, but that does not mean it was a failure. It just means we now know the next version of the Matrix have that feature set. It's hard to get you humans to perform calculations for the sake of calculating. You think homeomorphic encryption is hard? Just try running programs atop a logic lattice that require teenagers to do their homework! Hell, you even propagate errors ON PURPOSE just to be lazy. That's why there has to be so much redundancy!

Not like XI = Fail (1)

svanheulen (901014) | about 4 months ago | (#46555515)

Honestly I think the main reason it failed was because it was NOT like FFXI. It's like they took all the greatest parts of FFXI and replaced them with WoW crap.

Re:Not like XI = Fail (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555631)

Exactly this. All these excuses that they weren't aware of what competing MMOs were doing is total nonsense. The NPCs in the FFXIV original release specifically made FUN of people 'standing around at auction houses' when the FFXIV devs were trying to push their own indentured-servant NPC-based bazaar system. To fully savor this irony, please consider:

11-Jul-2002 - FFXI opens the Auction House system in-game (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:News/FFXI)

7-Jul-2004 - WoW opens the Auction House system in-game (http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_0.8)

FFXI's auction house actually pre-dates World of Warcraft's! They actually had a good idea that they then made fun of later! The need to differentiate themselves from the prior FFXI showed up in every aspect of FFXIV, and was almost certainly mandated from management, as almost every aspect of the game was unfun and unplayable. There was no auto-attack, you had to hit a button for each and every swing. There was no easy and fast travel system, chocobos were not even available at release. FFXI's crafting system was already somewhat burdensome, and FFXIV's system increased the complexity 5-fold. It was almost literally impossible by design to gather materials for items you needed at the level you wanted to make them, in an attempt to jump-start the player-run economy.

The FFXIV team made every single mistake possible, and they did it knowingly. They deserve whatever scorn they get, and this whitewashing after the fact is hilarious. FFXI succeeded in North America despite itself, as the dev team was very blatantly nationalistic and did not communicate nor solicit feedback from North American or European players for years after release.

Re:Not like XI = Fail (1)

_xeno_ (155264) | about 4 months ago | (#46555895)

I agree, I'm not sure I understand Yoshida's comment about them being "too focused on FFXI" because if anything the problem was that they essentially looked at FFXI and decided they were going to try and be as different as possible from it. (Well, at least in some aspects, considering they wholesale lifted things like the various player races from XI.)

People were looking for an updated XI for the then-next gen consoles, and instead of doing that, they did everything they could to distance the mechanics for XIV from XI, and it just didn't work.

EVE? (1)

Gothmolly (148874) | about 4 months ago | (#46555561)

So why did EVE fail? The same thing - labrynthine GUI, endless grind just to get through the tutorial, massive download size, perpetual patch treadmill.

Re:EVE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555709)

EVE is a sandbox - the content is primarily created by the players.

FF14 is a theme park. MASSIVE difference in gameplay.

Re:EVE? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46555813)

EVE content is not "primarily created by the players". Let me know when players are able to design and create and fly new ships ("I made a new cruiser type that has 90 turrets on it"), UI control elements, create unique drones (as in "I made a drone that goes around and gives everyone in the local system 1 ISK"), or any other aspects. CCP controls the content, meaning the ships, weapons, blueprints, drones, armours, etc., in addition to all UI aspects, are written by CCP.

What you meant to say was "EVE is a sandbox -- the 'story', i.e. 'what goes on in the universe', is primarily created by the players." Social situations are not content.

Re:EVE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556451)

So why did EVE fail?

Yes, running a successful, profitablel MMO for over a decade is failing.

I've got to ask:

Are you a fucking moron?

My comments on this (3, Interesting)

Megane (129182) | about 4 months ago | (#46555629)

Along with severe server instability and a world made up of maze-like maps,

That's one little problem I have with the later maps in FFXI. While the original areas had nice big areas, most of the later expansion areas were what I call "outdoor dungeons". Pits connected by trench hallways, with the areas in between being up on 10 foot high cliffs. There are even some areas you wouldn't realize are outside except when you look up and see a tree canopy.

Another problem XIV had was the degree to which sections of a map were copied and pasted. Sure, in FFXI you can see stuff like similar looking forks in the road, but in XIV, entire small hills were practically rubber-stamped all over a zone, without so much as even rotating them.

he also cited the game being stuck in past, trying to stick with a formula that worked with Square Enix's first MMO, Final Fantasy XI, without looking at newer MMOs to see what had worked there."

My own analogy of what happened is that they effectively had a list of "stuff that didn't work in FFXI and we need to fix when we don't have PS2 Limitations", and "stuff that works great in FFXI and we should keep". They used the first list, and threw out the second.

Another problem I think XIV had was that someone had A Great Idea, which is always trouble. "Hey, guys! What if we made your class depend on the weapon you were using?" Which sounds like it could possibly be a pretty good idea. Except they apparently never bothered to actually play test it to make sure it worked well enough, or even tune it. Instead, all the preview demos were all about the uber graphics resolution. Of course, this being in Japan, anyone who might have pointed out that it wasn't such a great idea would have instinctively held back so as not to embarrass his superiors.

Other radical ideas were thrown in, apparently from just trying to do something different without trying it, such as "People weren't 100% happy with the auction house in XI, so let's not have an auction house! We'll make people's characters stand around and bazaar their stuff even when they're not online!" Except that the number one problem with that is NO INDEXING. If you want, say, a cotton thread, you have to check every character's stuff individually, with no way to compare prices or even know who has what you want. Or at least that's what I understood the problem was from reading a bunch of forum posts from people in beta, because no way was I going to start another grindy MMO from the start, so I stayed with XI. (If I do go try other MMOs, I've sworn that it will be for exploration and seeing cool landscapes and maybe cool plot lines, not for grinding gear to help me grind more gear.)

Re: My comments on this (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 4 months ago | (#46555789)

Individual shops favor social interaction.

Re: My comments on this (1)

theArtificial (613980) | about 4 months ago | (#46556133)

Is visiting many ebay pages ad-hoc social?

With The Series In General (1)

Greyfox (87712) | about 4 months ago | (#46555861)

I find the prettier the graphics get, the less I seem to like their characters. If I hate the characters, I'm not going to get into the game enough to finish it. And I'm not going to drop $60 sight-unseen from a studio whose characters I typically hate. I've gotten to the point where I pretty much just ignore new game announcements from them, and that consider that to be an indicator of pretty bad health for the studio. They very much need to put some effort into making sure their games are actually fun and that people will give two shits about the characters in them. That's how you make an epic game, even with PS1 graphics.

Re:With The Series In General (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556221)

cloud was some horrible polygons that weren't recognizable enough otehr than ' I think it's a person'. Now, I think the fact within the first 2 hours you have him dressed up as a female that looks better than the rest of the party and getting gropefested will tell you something. This has always been their character design, whiny girly boys, you just can now see it in full fledged 'is that a boy or a girl?' models.

its not the flowerpots (0)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 4 months ago | (#46556033)

its the fact that a hangnail can dramatically change the course of history in a FF game, and yet everything else is flat out horseshit that does nothing

you got teenagers flying off 50 story drops like it was nothing, one hitting giant robots with their bare fists, a crappy JPOP song with 5 min worth of inspiration in the biggest shithole imaginable saves the world, but yet flowerpots is the straw that broke the camels back

yea, no wonder you have produced nothing but super expensive fail, you are retarded, thats why

Re:its not the flowerpots (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556373)

> its the fact that a hangnail can dramatically change the course of history in a FF game, and yet everything else is flat out horseshit that does nothing

That one scene in FF7 that everyone gets their panties in a twist about. You know the one. ITS SO SHOCKING!?!

Uh... Phoenix Down? Hello? We do this all the time.

Or maybe people are tired of hamster wheels... (1)

Marful (861873) | about 4 months ago | (#46556035)

I remember how it took me nearly two weeks to get to level 12 in FFXI.

Why would I ever want to subject myself to the same kind of leveling game mechanic a second time?

I didn't read the article because I went to the ta (1)

Mystiq (101361) | about 4 months ago | (#46556045)

The focus on flowerpots, while a little misguided, is still correct. Yoshida explained (or rather, a translator in my ear explained because he was speaking in Japanese) that, because they had such great success with FFXI, they failed to look at where the MMO genre had gone and stuck conservatively to their (cartoonishly large) guns. Undeniably, Square-Enix is a graphics powerhouse. Their games look gorgeous. Correct me if I'm wrong but style is just part of Japanese culture. The systemic problem was that the focus was not where it should have been: player experience. This is a game, after all. He emphasized that the success of FFXI blinded them in the creation of FFXIV and development time was spent in all the wrong places because they believed they were doing a good job without realizing what was going on right under their noses.

There's also the part that the game suffered upwards of 400 crashes per day (I'm assuming across the various servers worldwide), which was just a symptom of the larger problem.

Having just tried this game (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46556531)

I bought it on steam a couple of weeks ago and I'm not impressed with this game. Any reviewer who gave this game high praise must have been blinded, as they could not have reviewed the game on its own, but rather how it compared to their feelings about the original version, which may be an improvement, but only a handful of critics seemed to review it for what it was; an attempt at an MMORPG which is bland at best.

What meets you in this game is, first of all, NPCs named Wrdarfral or other random keyboard hammering names, which just destroys immersion and gives you the impression that nobody cares about this game's environment. An insane amount of text compared to what an objective is. I ended up not caring and flying through the text, except that you can't, because it seems to need an ACK from the server/lags sometimes. A poorly developed map system which is good at showing icons but not good at orienting players. A poorly structured user interface. I also get a much lower frame rate at 1280x1024 with the lowest settings in FF XIV compared to running Elder Scrolls Online at 1920x1080 with normal settings. The game struggles with a clear identity and has no clear direction. Only "moogles" and "chocobos" are the only things that vaguely says Final Fantasy. There are level scaling rules that pop up in your face every time, that get in the way of playing. Why is this a problem? Because when you're running around the map, the low-level or higher-level fates you encounter spawn often and everywhere in proximity. I mean, I could just get lower XP, not have my face blasted with useless text informing me that my level is too high or low. Big jumbo ass text filling the 1/4 of the screen when you complete or accept a quest, enter/join fates.

Anyway, I tried a game that reviewers gave high praise, only to find that the reviewers hyped a poorly designed game, mostly because they felt sorry for it due to its past. It's not your job as a reviewer to feel pity. My overall feelings from the game is that it's bland and lacks focus. Do read the negative reviews. After filtering out all players who gave it a 0 as a sanction because of server issues at launch. Anyway, I did not play it at launch, I played it just now.

Students of MMORPGs. This game has a lot of examples of how not to do an MMORPG. What you like or don't like obviously depends on what you got indoctrinated with at first, so we're all biased.

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?
or Connect with...

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>