Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

cancel ×

115 comments

Give me a big plate of beans (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594553)

and I'll start deploying all kinds of btrfs.

BUTTERFACE! (0)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46594867)

Backfield in motion.

How about real problems (5, Funny)

i kan reed (749298) | about 4 months ago | (#46594573)

When are they going to make the users of their website tolerable human beings instead of insane caricatures designed to make you lose all faith in humanity?

Re:How about real problems (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594609)

Bad news, those are the real human beings. The tolerable ones you want to rule the place are actually marketing sockpuppets.

Re:How about real problems (2)

TheSpinningBrain (998202) | about 4 months ago | (#46594623)

Unfortunately, I believe that is the role of the user. I don't think that Facebook would try re-routing users to code.org [code.org] .

Re:How about real problems (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594865)

Get better friends.

Re:How about real problems (4, Funny)

gstoddart (321705) | about 4 months ago | (#46594891)

When are they going to make the users of their website tolerable human beings instead of insane caricatures designed to make you lose all faith in humanity?

And ... this is different from Slashdot, how? ;-)

Re:How about real problems (2)

serviscope_minor (664417) | about 4 months ago | (#46595037)

And ... this is different from Slashdot, how? ;-)

Slashdot has more jokes about beowulf clusters. And if you act like a jerk, someone will call you an insenstitve clod.

Re:How about real problems (3, Funny)

kodomo (1100141) | about 4 months ago | (#46595369)

Can you explain it again, but using a car analogy?

Re:How about real problems (2)

amiga3D (567632) | about 4 months ago | (#46595781)

The jokes here are better.

Re:How about real problems (0)

hawkinspeter (831501) | about 4 months ago | (#46595845)

Citation needed.

Re:How about real problems (1)

dudpixel (1429789) | about 4 months ago | (#46599229)

And ... this is different from Slashdot, how? ;-)

Slashdot has more jokes about beowulf clusters. And if you act like a jerk, someone will call you an insenstitve clod.

Is this misidentification of jerks a fairly recent problem? I wonder what steps we could take to rectify this issue...

Re:How about real problems (1)

s.petry (762400) | about 4 months ago | (#46596031)

Because "Get off my Lawn!" and "Screw your meme!"?

unRAID (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594579)

unRAID should start using Btrfs filesystem,

I guess Minecraft will stop using it (3, Funny)

barlevg (2111272) | about 4 months ago | (#46594619)

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (4, Interesting)

vux984 (928602) | about 4 months ago | (#46594687)

If Facebook likes something, it must be evil.

If facebook buys something outright, it will be turned to social-shit. FTFY.

If I happen to share Zuckershits taste in coffee makers, that won't affect my enjoyment of the coffee maker. On the other hand, if Facebook buys out my favorite coffee maker... then yeah, my next coffee maker will be a brand that doesn't try and change my status to "making facebook coffee" everytime I brew a cup. (Well... I don't have a facebook account so that's moot... although I expect a facebook coffeemaker would require one before allowing coffee to be brewed so... there's that.)

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

barlevg (2111272) | about 4 months ago | (#46594693)

Well they "bought out" (that is, "hired") the lead Btrfs developers, so how do you count that?

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (3, Interesting)

vux984 (928602) | about 4 months ago | (#46594783)

Well they "bought out" (that is, "hired") the lead Btrfs developers, so how do you count that?

I still see it as a jointly developed GPL project, that facebook cannot own.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

Gerald Williams (3433353) | about 4 months ago | (#46594717)

Why do you think that? Both Instagram and Whats App are working as they originally did prior to their acquisition.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

barlevg (2111272) | about 4 months ago | (#46594749)

For now. How long did it take Google to begin forcing G+ integration onto Youtube?

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | about 4 months ago | (#46594827)

Well, considering G+ didn't exist when Youtube was purchased... Its not that good of an analogy.

Try comparing it to the Microsoft skype purchase.

Funny note, Microsoft is now hosting developer video hangouts over G+. Despite owning skype outright, and owning a part of facebook.

I also hate the Youtube G+ Integration, for the opposite reason. G+ is great, youtube and the comments there are horrible and shouldn't be brought to light anywhere civilized people gather.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594871)

And what of it?

Just because you have an account on a social network, doesn't mean that social network now knows everything about you. You actually have to divulge that information first and you're not divulging much with a username, password, and email address, especially if that email address is used just for that social network.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (2)

vux984 (928602) | about 4 months ago | (#46594753)

Both Instagram and Whats App are working as they originally did prior to their acquisition.

Well except where everything you do is fed into facebook's data mining backend, and its only a matter of time before they add a back channel to start showing you facebook ads.

They will monetize it. Its just a matter of time.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

rev0lt (1950662) | about 4 months ago | (#46596855)

So, you're saying that would never happen if they stayed independent? Such innocence...

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

vux984 (928602) | about 4 months ago | (#46597511)

So, you're saying that would never happen if they stayed independent?

It would be instagram ads and whatsapp ads. Not facebook ads. That's a big difference.

The amount of information whatsapp has on me is pretty limited compared to the profiles facebook or google are trying to build. I'm ok with small individual companies having small limited profiles of my activity with that company. I strongly object to the macro-scale surveillance that google and facebook attempt.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

rev0lt (1950662) | about 4 months ago | (#46598291)

Well, I'm no expert, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, but Whatsapp would never be profitable as a standalone company with their current business model. And what you call pretty limited, its not when cross-referenced with eg. your cellphone number (Facebook, Google and VK all "encourage" you to give this). For many people, a cellphone number is way more stable than a facebook profile. And whatsapp (either the app or the server) keeps full blown logs of all conversations, so its quite easy to mine them for keywords, phone numbers, places, urls and pictures.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

vux984 (928602) | about 4 months ago | (#46598431)

Meh, I'd still rather it be whatsapp than facebook. I perceived them to be much smaller, even if still fairly big.

But for what its worth I've never had a whatsapp account nor an instagram one, nor a facebook one. I find nearly all internet "social" to be a monumental waste of time bundled with massive privacy invasion and avoid it pretty thoroughly.

I do have a skype account though, and would love to find an alternative to that too. Because the ads bug me, and the attachment now to microsoft bugs me.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

rev0lt (1950662) | about 4 months ago | (#46600855)

Meh, I'd still rather it be whatsapp than facebook. I perceived them to be much smaller, even if still fairly big.

I understand that feeling. But its not based on facts or even objective... People often perceive big companies as "evil", and forget that, in that regard, all companies are evil in some way or another.

But for what its worth I've never had a whatsapp account nor an instagram one, nor a facebook one. I find nearly all internet "social" to be a monumental waste of time bundled with massive privacy invasion and avoid it pretty thoroughly.

Well, I had a whatsapp account and a facebook account. While I tend to agree regarding the waste of time, it is also a way for me to connect with friends and colleagues from past companies, and often discuss technical stuff and what's happening in the world. Isolation is good often, but its not good always. And while you can connect in real life, is quite hard to keep track of friends when they're scattered a bit all over the world.

I do have a skype account though, and would love to find an alternative to that too. Because the ads bug me, and the attachment now to microsoft bugs me.

A tool is a tool. What matters which brand produces it? Again, the "big" company stigma... :)

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

vux984 (928602) | about 4 months ago | (#46600889)

all companies are evil in some way or another.

Yes, all companies are evil. Bigger companies have the capacity to do more evil.

And while I have no objection to the usual "build a real product, sell that product to customers, make money" business model, even if it leads to evil, Facebook (and social in general) have a business model i abhor. So there's that too.

And to top if off, I dislike Zuckerberg intensely as a person, have no respect for him, and wish to do nothing to enrich him, while there are any number of other CEOs who I have nothing personally against, even though i know there companies have done some nasty stuff (Microsoft, Sony... for example). And still many more CEOs who are perfectly normal guys that I get along with just fine.

, it is also a way for me to connect with friends and colleagues from past companies, and often discuss technical stuff and what's happening in the world

I dislike the social business model. I am not antisocial. I avoid businesses that go the "free service but we try and profile you and sell that to someone else" in favor of businesses that say "this is a service, we charge $X for it and you are the customer", and above those I favor businesses that say "here is the service, run it on your own servers, and we'll sell you support.

There are instant messaging, forum tools, and other collaborative systems out there using the latter models and I'm happy to use them.

A tool is a tool.

Right.

What matters which brand produces it?

Not the brand, but what the tool is and does. Is it a secure two way messenger that I have complete control over? Or is it is an insecure system hosted by a 3rd party who actively monitors everything I do with it to try and profile me? Developed by a company that is more interested in "monetizing it" with ads then just treating ME as the customer.

I don't mind Microsoft owning skype because its microsoft. I don't like Microsoft owning skype because they are very actively turning the product from something I was already unsatisfied with (insecure, 3rd party, no control) into something I despise (all that, plus advertising, and blatant content mining)

The only reason I still use it is because I find the voice quality, and call connection reliability to be higher than the alternatives I've tried, the ease of having multiple 'group chats' in progress, and the seamless ability to jump from group chat to group voice. If I could find something else that did it better and had a business model I liked more, I'd switch.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (0)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about 4 months ago | (#46594957)

The Timeline:

  • The "cool" kids start using Btrfs.
  • Facebook starts using Btrfs.
  • Parents start using Btrfs.
  • Btrfs Jumps the Shark [wikipedia.org] .
  • Everyone stops using Btrfs.

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46595211)

Dude, seriously, you don't need to provide a link explaining what Jumping the Shark means.

Re: I guess Minecraft will stop using it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46595563)

Yes, you do. I have no idea what that means. Is it similar to beating a red headed stepchild?

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (1, Informative)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | about 4 months ago | (#46595551)

While all the hipsters were using Btrfs, the real geeks were using ZFS and not worrying about bad designs such as the inability to query free space ...

https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/... [kernel.org]

Re:I guess Minecraft will stop using it (2)

rev0lt (1950662) | about 4 months ago | (#46596877)

Not only the geeks, but also big corps. And everyone that actually cares about data integrity.

Sounds about right (5, Funny)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | about 4 months ago | (#46594643)

> Btrfs

tl;dr, I assume this is a button to let you tag people as a butterface?

Re:Sounds about right (1)

QRDeNameland (873957) | about 4 months ago | (#46594681)

I was about to say if they made a fork of btrfs for their own implementation it should obviously be called ButterFace.

There may be, but... (1)

sl3xd (111641) | about 4 months ago | (#46595091)

There may be such a button, but since the code will be stored on btrfs, it'll corrupt itself in a few months and disappear.

Re:There may be, but... (1)

AzTechGuy (1108805) | about 4 months ago | (#46595283)

Isn't it still considered unstable? Maybe they think they can change it and make it stable?

Re:Sounds about right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46595173)

> Btrfs

tl;dr, I assume this is a button to let you tag people as a butterface?

It's actually a new "hot or not" clone acquired by Facebook recently,

Butt 'R Face

Anyone near Menlo Park? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594665)

What does this thing getting deployed look like? Any pics?

Thanks, Facebook! (3, Insightful)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about 4 months ago | (#46594667)

FB admins - thank you for paying the developers for the open source work they do. I've been using flashcache with great success in one deployment for almost two years now and am looking to start with hhvm. I didn't even know about the block work.

Obviously kudos to the developers too for spending valuable years on it as well.

Re:Thanks, Facebook! (-1, Troll)

smooth wombat (796938) | about 4 months ago | (#46594917)

Get paid for their work? What are you, a capitalist? People don't get paid for their work. Witness all the people who laugh about how they're not paying a dime for someone else's work when they can steal it from TPB.

Why should these people get paid for work they do when it's on their own time? Isn't that the whole point of open source, free work, no money?

Or are you saying that people need to get paid for the work they do because that's how things work?

Re: Thanks, Facebook! (1)

Zero__Kelvin (151819) | about 4 months ago | (#46595729)

You are assuming a mutual exclusion where there is none. Some F/OSS developers get paid for their efforts and some work on projects on their own time and done. Still others do a mixture of both.

Re:Thanks, Facebook! (1)

s.petry (762400) | about 4 months ago | (#46596121)

While I'll agree that there a few companies that only take advantage of Open Source work, I happen to work for and know several that have full time developers working on nothing but Open Source projects as their full time job. (No, I dislike Facebook and would probably never work there).

I have no idea why so many people try and paint everything as black or white. The world is grey, enjoy it!!

Re:hhvm (1)

Anomalyst (742352) | about 4 months ago | (#46595437)

http://hhvm.com/ [hhvm.com] from TFSite "an open-source virtual machine designed for executing programs written in Hack and PHP. HHVM uses a just-in-time (JIT) compilation approach to achieve superior performance while maintaining the development flexibility that PHP provides."

Trial by fire... (3, Insightful)

mlts (1038732) | about 4 months ago | (#46594691)

IMHO, this is a very good thing. btrfs doesn't have as many capabilities that ZFS or Storage Spaces/ReFS possesses.

However, it is finally time that Linux has a filesystem that supports the latest/greatest enterprise features (deduplication and the ability to combat bit rot.)

Realistically, it would be nice to see the native (not FUSE based) code from OpenZFS be included as an alternative, but the CDDL/GPL conflicts likely will make this a no-go.

Unfortunately, the GPL-compatible ZFS ship has sai (1)

McKing (1017) | about 4 months ago | (#46594765)

...and the ship's owner is named Larry Ellison. How do you expect him to be able to afford enough Ole Doc Washington's Patented Yacht Oil to win the America's Cup if he gives nice things away for free??

What difference would the GPL make to ZFS? (1)

sl3xd (111641) | about 4 months ago | (#46595045)

It would be the biggest "fuck you" in the history of open source if ORACLE licensed ZFS as GPLv3 only, as the license would still be incompatible with the Linux Kernel.

The whole reason the CDDL was chosen by Sun was to be incompatible with GPLv2. Oddly enough, the GPLv3 is incompatible with GPLv2 as well.

From a license persepective, it makes no useful difference, as you'd taint the kernel with an incompatible license to run the code whether it's GPLv3 or CDDL.

Re:Unfortunately, the GPL-compatible ZFS ship has (3, Informative)

rev0lt (1950662) | about 4 months ago | (#46596927)

Larry, really? The guy from the same company who actually STARTED btrfs? That's right, btrfs *is* an Oracle project. Some other big names came onboard later on, but it started there... Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B... [wikipedia.org]

Re:Trial by fire... (5, Informative)

mcrbids (148650) | about 4 months ago | (#46594797)

Realistically, it would be nice to see the native (not FUSE based) code from OpenZFS be included as an alternative, but the CDDL/GPL conflicts likely will make this a no-go.

Well, isn't this your lucky day, then? ZFS on Linux works now, today, without the use of FUSE. [zfsonlinux.org] Nothing about the license conflicts prohibits use or distribution, just distribution together. I have ZFS/Linux servers in production right now, and they are quite stable. Starting with a vanilla install of CentOS, the instructions are roughly:

1) Install the yum repo file.
2) yum Install kernel-devel zfs
3) Start the ZFS service.
4) Start creating ZFS volumes....

A reboot isn't typically necessary... (though not a bad idea)

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594911)

Running zfsonlinux here for everything except / and /boot. The last officially supported Linux version is 3.11. I am guessing (hoping) that 0.6.3, the next version of zfsonlinux, will be released soon after Linux 3.14 (with support commensurate support). If you're OK waiting a few kernel versions, or you're OK running HEAD, you'll be happy with zfsonlinux. It has been very stable for me, though I throw a ton of ECC ram at it (like you're supposed to).

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

mlts (1038732) | about 4 months ago | (#46595043)

I appreciate that link. That is very useful. It would be nice if it was part of EPEL directly. I thought the ZFS development was dead on this, but apparently there was a release last August.

And an active development... (1)

sl3xd (111641) | about 4 months ago | (#46595063)

It also has an active development community; the git repo has regular and frequent commits (for a filesystem). ZFS on Linux seems to test more and release less often -- a fact I appreciate as I haven't lost a single bit of data on my ZFS filesystems, but have lost entire btrfs filesystems multiple times. (Yeah, sure, btrfs is "experimental" and will eat your data... so why is Facebook even thinking about using it?)

Re:And an active development... (1)

mlts (1038732) | about 4 months ago | (#46595327)

btrfs has been "experimental" for quite a long time (2009?) To compare, Linux went from MINIX's filesystem to ext2 in two years, which lasted quite a while. It takes time to get a filesystem going, but five years is almost an eternity in the computer world, and realistically, Linux should have chucked the LVM2/ext4 combination long ago for ZFS or something ZFS-like.

The good thing is that with FB's devs hammering on btrfs, that will do nothing but improve things and get btrfs ready for prime time use in the enterprise.

Re:And an active development... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46595425)

I've only been Linux-exclusive (Kubuntu) since 2006, but every time I've ever done a new install I got a list of filesystems to choose from.

Re:Trial by fire... (3, Informative)

SirMasterboy (872152) | about 4 months ago | (#46595921)

Check out: http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Main_... [open-zfs.org]
http://dtrace.org/blogs/ahl/20... [dtrace.org]

ZoL is very active and very up-to-date. All the versions and compatibility is in sync with Illumos (the main source of OpenZFS) and FreeBSD. You can create and move zpools between these 3 platforms seamlessly.

2 of the main founders and creators of ZFS itself (who used to work for Oracle and wrote ZFS) who now work for Delphix and continue to improve OpenZFS (started with the last open release of Oracle ZFS) in Illumos and have actually made it better than the now closed Oracle ZFS.

See how OpenZFS is actually better than Oracle ZFS now:
http://dtrace.org/blogs/ahl/20... [dtrace.org]

Actively adding new features: https://github.com/zfsonlinux/... [github.com] (Largeblock support to match the newer Oracle ZFS)

Etc...

Maybe if we pray to the ZFS gods Matthew will start implementing block pointer rewrite some day!

Anyways, OpenZFS is very active and kicking, and that includes the Linux port.

Re:Trial by fire... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46595415)

Personally I would be *EXTREMELY* wary of running ZFS on Linux. Sun originally picked the CDDL license specifically to keep the code out of Linux, and as the new owners Oracle are lawsuit happy whenever it suits them, I would not be surprised to see them start to go after Linux installations of ZFS. You could certainly make the point that Oracle has no basis for a lawsuit, but they can certainly bankrupt you in the process of suing you.

Re:Trial by fire... (4, Informative)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | about 4 months ago | (#46595585)

> Personally I would be *EXTREMELY* wary of running ZFS on Linux.

So basically you are making an decision based on emotion instead of actual facts??

Try reading the FAQ next time:

http://zfsonlinux.org/faq.html... [zfsonlinux.org]

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46596569)

Seriously. I've been running ZFS on Linux for 2 years and it's as stable as it ever was on Solaris. I'm 100% confident in it for even Production use.

Re:Trial by fire... (2)

jxander (2605655) | about 4 months ago | (#46595993)

A reboot isn't typically necessary... (though not a bad idea)

What is this? Windows?

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

Solandri (704621) | about 4 months ago | (#46596207)

How has performance been? I ran zfsonlinux for a few months 2-3 years ago, and on a single redundancy zvol with compression on I could never get sustained data transfer rates over the network (using samba) above about 35 MB/s. I switched to ZFS on FreeBSD and it easily hits 60-100 MB/s. (This is with deduplication off. While dedup is a great idea in theory, I have never seen such a performance hog. It dropped my transfer rates to about 15, 8, and 2 MB/s for best, average, and worst case. And yes before I gave up, I tried giving it 8 GB of RAM for my ~1 TB storage pool devoted to stuff that could benefit from dedup. Using a better compression algorithm has worked better that dedup for me.)

I'm curious how well the project has progressed. I thought of trying btrfs but the "experimental" warnings scared me off - I just wanted something that works. The weird thing was zfsonlinux was faster at reads that writes. ZFS on FreeBSD has been faster at writes than reads.

Re:Trial by fire... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46596587)

Dedup is not a great idea in theory for the use case you've just described. Dedupe works as it's intended to on ZFS, but it's not intended for your 8 GB of RAM and 1 TB of storage. The documentation goes over this very well.

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

rev0lt (1950662) | about 4 months ago | (#46596967)

A nice alternative to ZFS Dedup (or so I heard) is DragonFly's HammerFS. Matt uses a compromising approach that is less taxing on resources.

And facebook will be burnt (2)

sl3xd (111641) | about 4 months ago | (#46594979)

Not that anybody'll really notice, but I have a feeling that Facebook's backup and recovery system is queuing up for a stress test.

Having lost data with BTRFS multiple times on my disk array (as recently as last month), I have no confidence in it. The best thing I can say about btrfs is is that it was able to tell me that it had lost data. Not many filesystems do that; but ZFS on Linux [zfsonlinux.org] has been rock solid for years, and not only tells me if data has been lost, but actually preserves the data as well.

Re:And facebook will be burnt (3, Interesting)

mlts (1038732) | about 4 months ago | (#46595127)

You are not the only person who have reported data loss on btrfs. Normally I wouldn't worry about Linux filesystems (even ext4 became rock solid after a while.) However, I worry about what I hear from people who use btrfs.

One concern is that a filesystem can't check for bit rot by itself. True bit rot checking requires at least some working with the LVM layer to check CRCs, find a damaged sector and fix it. I've read that btrfs can catch some bitrot issues, (and please correct me if wrong), but it can't catch/correct anywhere near as much as ZFS or Storage Spaces + ReFS can. btrfs also uses a 32 bit CRC, rather than a 64 bit one.

I'm hoping that Facebook's coders can find the issues with btrfs and squash them. There are not many companies with the sheer server use of FB, and if they can get it working solidly, btrfs should be more than ready for prime time for everyone else.

Bitrot and Generation 5 filesystems (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46596683)

Where did you *hear* that a filesystem can't check for "bit rot" [sic]?

Here?
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/bitrot-and-atomic-cows-inside-next-gen-filesystems/2/

Re:And facebook will be burnt (1)

mcrbids (148650) | about 4 months ago | (#46598865)

If BTRFS bit rot detection is anything like ZFS' then it most certainly can check for bit rot and correct it automatically.

Re:And facebook will be burnt (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46599517)

It's not that they can not fix bit rot, but it would hurt benchmarks if they do.

Re:Trial by fire... (2)

unixisc (2429386) | about 4 months ago | (#46595375)

If FB needed ZFS, wouldn't they have gone for FreeBSD? The cleanest up to date OS that supports this file system? If they're going w/ BTRFS, they might as well go w/ Linux.

Re:Trial by fire... (2)

s.petry (762400) | about 4 months ago | (#46596341)

Well, since ZFS is available for Linux I had to wonder why there would be people making a fuss about btrfs. You bring up licensing which is an issue, and I'm guessing Oracle did not help the license issues, or possibly made the license issues worse.

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

styrotech (136124) | about 4 months ago | (#46596633)

I would think licensing wouldn't be much of an issue. Facebook probably maintain their own internal custom linux distro. GPL incompatibility between ZFS and the kernel presumably wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't be distributing it to anyone else.

I could be wrong though :)

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

s.petry (762400) | about 4 months ago | (#46596889)

I happen to use ZFS and have really enjoyed it since it came stock in Solaris 10. I really never paid attention to btrfs, no need to do so.

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

Rich0 (548339) | about 4 months ago | (#46598455)

Well, since ZFS is available for Linux I had to wonder why there would be people making a fuss about btrfs. You bring up licensing which is an issue, and I'm guessing Oracle did not help the license issues, or possibly made the license issues worse.

Well, for starters btrfs plans to have features I need, like reshaping RAID, while ZFS has no plans (that I'm aware of) to add this feature. No, I'm not talking about adding/removing raid from a zpool - I'm talking about adding/removing drives from a RAID while maintaining redundancy while the filesystem is online. mdadm supports this, and so does btrfs (though doing anything with raid5/6 on btrfs is risky right now).

The main strength of ZFS is its maturity/stability. Feature-wise, I'm sure it does somethings btrfs lacks, but when you look at the planned feature lists btrfs seems likely to surpass it at some point.

And of course there is the license - ZFS will never be in the mainstream kernel unless Oracle re-licenses it or somebody re-writes it (and in so doing ditches the maturity which is its main advantage).

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

Rich0 (548339) | about 4 months ago | (#46598435)

IMHO, this is a very good thing. btrfs doesn't have as many capabilities that ZFS or Storage Spaces/ReFS possesses.

Beyond maturity, what is actually missing? When I look at the feature lists for both if anything it seems like btrfs has more features, like being able to reshape a raid. The last time I checked ZFS supported adding or removing a raid from a zpool, but not adding or removing individual drives from a raid (without degrading it). That is, you can't turn a 4-drive raid5 into a 5-drive raid5 without adding 5 drives and then removing 4.

I'm certainly willing to believe btrfs is missing something, but it has a number of features already (though some aren't as ready for production use - for example I'd probably avoid raid 5/6 for the time being).

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46599031)

RAID 5/6 is exactly what is needed. The industry seems to swing from advanced hardware RAID to having the OS handle this task. There was a time back in the Ultra 450 days when one had to have Veritas's LVM software because Sun machines would ship as "dumb" JBOD without a hardware controller... then the world moved to SANs, from there to cloud storage, and from there (now that SAN prices are through the stratosphere) back to having the OS do the striping/RAID.

It is good for an OS/filesystem to have this capability anyway. On higher end systems, I have moved production database data (after backing them up of course) from one SAN to another by creating a mirror on the newly present disks, waiting until the OS has finished mirroring, breaking the mirror, then dropping the presented volume on the old array. There was a performance hit, but it was not that great. Without at least RAID 1 in the OS, moving the filesystems would have almost definitely required downtime.

Then there is the issue of bit rot. A ZFS scrub isn't just an online fsck... it goes through every single sector looking for corruption and either finding it... or if there is redundancy left, fixing it. At the minimum, it can tell you what data is damaged so you can reach for the right backup tape.

Finally there is the issue of snapshots. With ZFS, I can mount a drive, snapshot the entire system, copy that snap onto the mounted drive, dismount it and be on my way, a backup done. Linux has no ability to handle volume snapshots... something Windows has had since 2003, AIX has had since 5L, and Solaris has had since 10. Snapshotting active volumes for backups is functionality that at the minimum, brings Linux into this decade.

Admittedly, I've been using Linux since the SLS/MCC days. However, where Linux absolutely lacks is an enterprise grade filesystem. I'm glad Facebook is putting this to the test and helping the OS actually get something that keeps it up with BSD, Solaris... hell, even Windows Server 2012 R2 that has built in autotiering if you have SSD in your disk pool.

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

Rich0 (548339) | about 4 months ago | (#46599565)

RAID 5/6 is exactly what is needed.

Btrfs supports RAID 5/6, with reshaping (ZFS does not support the latter).

Then there is the issue of bit rot. A ZFS scrub isn't just an online fsck... it goes through every single sector looking for corruption and either finding it... or if there is redundancy left, fixing it.

Fully supported on btrfs. I do it weekly. All reads are of course checked, but a scrub checks all the disks asynchronously.

Finally there is the issue of snapshots. With ZFS, I can mount a drive, snapshot the entire system, copy that snap onto the mounted drive, dismount it and be on my way, a backup done.

Snapshots are fully supported on btrfs. You can also use send/receive with them which would be more efficient in this use case than just copying the snapshot (which copies all data and not just changes since the last snapshot).

My question was what features does ZFS have which btrfs doesn't have? All of these are btrfs features. The last two are fairly robust - raid 5/6 is pretty immature and I don't run it on my own systems yet.

Re:Trial by fire... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46600313)

Encryption, NFSv4/NTFS style ACL, analog to L2ARC, SLOG device, space reservations ... df works?

and quotas.. what is this garbage about enabling it before creating subvolumes?
https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/UseCases#Usage

Re:Trial by fire... (1)

sjames (1099) | about 4 months ago | (#46599119)

I have been evaluating both recently. In the end, btrfs is mostly to be more capable. I say to be because at the moment, it is not yet mature and some of those capabilities are either absent or not working properly, especially RAID >0. ZFS seems much more mature and it's capabilities work now.

Neither lost data in my brief tests where I abused them with hard resets and disappearing drives (in a VM). However, btrfs got to a point where anything touching it got stuck in the D state, so it might as well have been a crash.

btrfs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594759)

Is that short for Bitrot Filesystem?

Re:btrfs? (4, Interesting)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | about 4 months ago | (#46595697)

LOL, nice! Or ...

* Broken To Read Free Space
* Broken Treatment Reading Free Space

btrfs FAQ 4.4 - 4.8
* 4.4 Why does df show incorrect free space for my RAID volume?
* 4.5 Aaargh! My filesystem is full, and I've put almost nothing into it!
* 4.6 Why are there so many ways to check the amount of free space?
* 4.6.1 Raw disk usage
* 4.6.2 Actual data
* 4.7 Why is free space so complicated?
* 4.8 Why is there so much space overhead?
https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/... [kernel.org]

--
Microsoft Windows 8: A 64-bit compilation of 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition with 0 bit of understanding good UI.

Re:btrfs? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46597047)

Microsoft Windows 8: A 64-bit compilation of 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition with 0 bit of understanding good UI.

I am no windows fan but this hoary old cut-and-paste Microsoft/x86 slam is the dumbest fucking ahistorical bullshit and you should be ashamed of repeating it.

1. No part of the x86 family's lineage was ever 4-bit. Despite what you may have heard (from idiots), there is essentially zero compatibility on any level between the 4004 and 8086. There isn't even true compatibility between the 8080 and 8086: although the 8086 was designed to make it easy to port 8-bit 8080 software, Intel did this exclusively at the assembly source code level. Binaries weren't compatible at all. It was, more or less, "Hey, we've got this new 16-bit CPU, but we'll give you 8080-compatible names for the lower halves of 16-bit registers, and 8080-compatible instructions, so if your ASM program only ever uses the 8-bit register names it'll mostly work the same". You still had to make some alterations but much of the program could be used as-is.

2. Even in an alternate reality where the 4004 had a real relationship with x86, QDOS / MS-DOS never ran on it. The 4004 was a calculator and stoplight controller. It never ran anything we'd recognize as an OS. It couldn't address enough memory to do that.

3. No part of the Windows OS lineage was ever 8-bit. The 8086/8088 were 16-bit CPUs with a 20-bit address space, and MS-DOS treated them as such from the very beginning. There has never been a "16-bit patch". If you want to shame Microsoft for something real related to bit depth, do it for how long it took them to ship a 32-bit version of Windows. (386: 1985. Windows '95: 1995. Took them a decade. Shameful.)

4. As of Win 95, it wasn't merely a graphical shell for DOS anymore. If you believe that, sorry, you are wrong.

5. Modern Windows (XP onwards on the consumer side) is derived from Windows NT, which was a completely new OS written from scratch. It is pure unalloyed deliberate thickheadedness to claim that NT is that list of stupid you copypasted -- they made a clean break at the core, and wrote wrapper layers to keep old software working.

Re:btrfs? (1)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | about 4 months ago | (#46597617)

1. Sarcasm.
2. Whoosh.
3. MS-DOS, aka, 86-DOS, shares some of the same design of 8-bit CP/M.

"MS-DOS was a renamed form of 86-DOS. ... Development of 86-DOS took only six weeks, as it was basically a clone of Digital Research's CP/M (for 8080/Z80 processors)"

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... [wikipedia.org]

Do you understand what a File Control Block is??

The FCB originates from CP/M and is also present in most variants of DOS, ... The following fields have consistent meanings:
0x00 Drive number
0x01 File name & type
0x0C implementation dependent
0x20 record numer sequential access
0x21 record number random access

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F... [wikipedia.org]

4. a) Incorrect.

For example, it is possible to prevent loading the graphical user interface and boot the system into a real-mode MS-DOS environment. This sparked debate amongst users and professionals over the question of to what extent Windows 95 is an operating system or merely a graphical shell running on top of MS-DOS.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W... [wikipedia.org]
Also,
  * http://web.archive.org/web/201... [archive.org]
  b) Win95 contained 16-bit code
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W... [wikipedia.org]

5. I am quite familiar with the history of Dave Cutler's WinNT 3.1, WinNT 4.0, Win 2000 (aka NT 5.0), WinXP (NT 5.1), Vista (NT 6.0), WIn7 (NT 6.1), and Win8 (NT 6.3) having run/used all of them.

Regardless you completely missed the joke.

Humor. You should try it sometime, instead of being so uptight. You'll live longer, healthier, and happier.

--
First (Public) Contact is coming 2024. Are you prepared for a new larger perspective in the Universe?

Re:btrfs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46599537)

Even thou the 4004 was not part of x86 Arch, however intel did create a 4 bit processor for a calculator I think.

Big whoop (1)

msobkow (48369) | about 4 months ago | (#46594767)

As far as I know, the web tier is basically read-only images of the services to be run. The updates and data are on the back end.

So what, precisely, does using Btrfs in such a deployment prove? It's the stability of modified disks that is in question.

Re:Big whoop (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46595335)

As far as I know, the web tier is basically read-only images of the services to be run.

The web tier will serve cached copies of user pages generated as requests arrive, and then distribute these generated pages as load increases. Given that Facebook has about 18.5% of the species actively using the service every month you can assume there are tens of thousands of page gens per minute into the web tier caches. The storage elements used to achieve that will experience very frequent writes.

Re:Big whoop (1)

msobkow (48369) | about 4 months ago | (#46595609)

Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't considered caching.

What new social features? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46594969)

The article doesn't specify what new social features they're adding to the file system. Any ideas on what those will be? Will they be as obnoxious and offensive as the constant spam Apple added to iOS to try to advertise Facebook and that preteen girl site Twitter? Social features do not belong in a file system, but I understand why Linus is accepting them because Facebook and all of their Republican politicians that support them are a powerful force.

I have an idea (0)

slashmydots (2189826) | about 4 months ago | (#46594995)

If they strap on an oculus rift headset, do you think that maybe they'd be able to see that nobody gives a shit unless it's news about them going bankrupt? I bet 50% of slashdotters don't use Facebook. They could use hamsters on wheels and mathematical savant unicorns as servers for all I care. I just want them to die already.

Btrfs definition (4, Informative)

PHPNerd (1039992) | about 4 months ago | (#46595005)

From wikipedia: Btrfs (B-tree file system) is a GPL-licensed experimental copy-on-write file system for Linux. (I'm sure a lot of people were wondering what it is, since TFA doesn't say)

Re:Btrfs definition (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46595575)

I had to follow the same exercise. The next step, which I have not yet been able to articulate an appropriate search string for, is why I would care.

Re:Btrfs definition (1)

petermgreen (876956) | about 4 months ago | (#46599829)

btrfs brings really useful features like data integrity protection through the combination of checksums with either multiple copies or error correction codes*, snapshotting** and the ability to create a logical copy of a file without creating a physical copy. These are features that most other linux fileystems don't have. You can find out more at https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/... [kernel.org]

Unfortunately it's hard to take a filesystem, particularly a complex one like btrfs from "seems to work fine under our lab tests" to "proven stable in production" . devs need data from real world problems to improve the filesystem but to get data from real world problems requires people to run it on real world systems but people are reluctant to put an experimental filesystem on their production servers.

This is good news towards the goal of turning btrfs into a "proven stable in production" soloution.

* The trouble with conventional raid is it keeps multiple effective copies but it has no idea which of those copies is correct. So it relies on the underlying drives to return either correct data or an error code. Experiance has shown that the checksum systems built into drives are not strong enough to completely prevent bad data from being returned.
** Yes you can do snapshotting with a layer like lvm between the filesystem and the storage but there are distinct advantages to doing it as part of the filesystem.

Re:Btrfs definition (2)

dargaud (518470) | about 4 months ago | (#46595581)

I hope the /. wannabes that'll spring up when beta goes into production will enforce the explicit declaration of all acronyms in the summary...

Not next gen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46595219)

If ZFS was a next gen filesystem and BtrFS doesn't surpass it, how can BtrFS be next gen?

Re:Not next gen (1)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | about 4 months ago | (#46595601)

next-gen is just marketing propaganda for "new, untested, and hype because it is not old 'X' "

Re:Not next gen (1)

TeknoHog (164938) | about 4 months ago | (#46596799)

next-gen is just marketing propaganda for "new, untested, and hype because it is not old 'X' "

I understand that may apply to Wayland or Mir, but not filesystems, unless you refer to XFS :D

Also, I understand that ZFS is not just a filesystem, as it also covers the functionalities of volume management, kitchen sink, life, the universe, everything, and emacs. Btrfs is a filesystem in the unix philosophy (unless the name refers to 'butterflysystem', in which case it covers all aforementioned functionalities and then some).

Re:Not next gen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46597931)

Btrfs is a filesystem in the unix philosophy (unless the name refers to 'butterflysystem', in which case it covers all aforementioned functionalities and then some).

Eh, BTRFS also edges over into the territory of mdadm and LVM2, so it's not just a "unix philosophy" file system. It's kind of a strange half state, more powerful then ext4, but not quite as powerful as ZFS.

Re:Not next gen (1)

Rich0 (548339) | about 4 months ago | (#46598485)

Btrfs is fairly comparable to ZFS in terms of capabilities/architecture. Personally I tend to prefer the design (devices go directly into pools - you don't have to designate groupings of devices into RAID/etc). Each has some feature the other lacks, but ZFS is more mature.

Ultimately btrfs seems likely to replace ext4 some day, though that day could be quite a ways off. ZFS is unlikely to do so unless the license issue is overcome - sure, you can use it, but there will always be a drive to have the #1 general-purpose filesystem be one that is actually in the mainline kernel.

Re:Not next gen (1)

entrigant (233266) | about 4 months ago | (#46598759)

How is it a filesystem in the unix philsophy? It's monolithic in the worst possible way; a clumsy mess of layering violations. One analogy would be if someone said "http would be so much better if it wasn't for those pesky tcp, ip, and ethernet layers!"

I remain bitter that all of that work into advanced data protection, volume management, and efficiency features was wasted on a single filesystem instead of placed in device mapper where they belong. Then ext4 could have useful features such dedupe, load balancing, compression, etc. Hell, if proper layer constraints and software design were used FAT16 could have these features!

Shame on ZFS, shame on BTRFS, and shame on the community for supporting these abominations.

Re:Not next gen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46600343)

How is it a filesystem in the unix philsophy? It's monolithic in the worst possible way; a clumsy mess of layering violations. One analogy would be if someone said "http would be so much better if it wasn't for those pesky tcp, ip, and ethernet layers!"

I remain bitter that all of that work into advanced data protection, volume management, and efficiency features was wasted on a single filesystem instead of placed in device mapper where they belong. Then ext4 could have useful features such dedupe, load balancing, compression, etc. Hell, if proper layer constraints and software design were used FAT16 could have these features!

Shame on ZFS, shame on BTRFS, and shame on the community for supporting these abominations.

Sometimes we call "layering violations" - "integration", and there are lots to gain from it. What's going to keep your compression and dedup layers in order? Is the dedup layer going to offer local compression of its own? Which layer does integrity checking?

Now what about your userland utilities? Can they ever have any clue what convoluted stack of device mapper layers you have? Would you trade Linux's file level page caching for a block level one? Oh, what, THAT layer is different?

....and nothing of value was lost (1)

rainer_d (115765) | about 4 months ago | (#46597585)

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...