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GCHQ and NSA Targeted World Leaders, Private German Companies

Soulskill posted about 6 months ago | from the caught-with-your-hand-in-the-cookie-jar dept.

Government 145

Advocatus Diaboli sends this news from Der Spiegel: "Documents show that Britain's GCHQ intelligence service infiltrated German Internet firms and America's NSA obtained a court order to spy on Germany and collected information about the chancellor in a special database. Is it time for the country to open a formal espionage investigation? ... A secret NSA document dealing with high-ranking targets has provided further indications that Merkel was a target. The document is a presentation from the NSA's Center for Content Extraction, whose multiple tasks include the automated analysis of all types of text data. The lists appear to contain 122 country leaders. Twelve names are listed as an example, including Merkel's."

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Spy agencies spying? (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610073)

Say it ain't so!

Re:Spy agencies spying? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610351)

And if this news was about Russians caught spying on USA and Britain, there'd be a bunch of people foaming at the mouth declaring "act of war" instead of the recently common "oh well, that's just what they do" dismissive brush-off.

Hypocrites everywhere.

Wait - you think they don't? (4, Informative)

Overzeetop (214511) | about 6 months ago | (#46610413)

Who in the world thinks that Russia DOESN'T spy on the US and GB (and France and Germany and everyone else for that matter). FFS - we ALL do it to everybody else.

This is like complaining that farts stink, and somebody just found out that we left a beige cloud in the restroom. Somebody light a match, close the door, and get on with it. In polite society you hold your breath and pretend like nothing happened, because the next time the remains of the burrito might be yours.

Re:Wait - you think they don't? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610533)

Popularity makes everything okay!

Re:Wait - you think they don't? (2)

Smauler (915644) | about 6 months ago | (#46611855)

Spying on friends is generally seen as poor form.

Now, you could argue that the US and Germany are not friends, but the politicians would argue they were. You could argue the US and Russia were friends, but then you'd be wrong.

The problem with the entire US mentality of "it's fine to spy on other nations" is that GCHQ is British, and has the same idea, and shares their information _on you_ with your intelligence services, and anyone else who wants to know.

It's not fine.

Re:Spy agencies spying? (1, Interesting)

lonOtter (3587393) | about 6 months ago | (#46610377)

Murderers murdering? Say it ain't so!

Re: Spy agencies spying? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610481)

On our friends and allies. On you.

Criminal illegal surveillance (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610715)

Those in the NSA that authorized mass surveillance are criminals. The only reason why they are not in jail for a gross violation of not only the privacy rights of foreigners but even US citizens, is because the government is behaving like a bunch of unprincipled communist thugs. Without prosecution of thr massive number of privacy offenses committed by the NSA no one should trust US technology to protect their privacy-- not even Americans.

Feelings hurt (1)

j_l_cgull (129101) | about 6 months ago | (#46610091)

Since USAian's hurt feelings are a matter of national security, NSA is well within the law for collecting info about what Germans think.

Re:Feelings hurt (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610121)

Since USAian's hurt feelings are a matter of national security, NSA is well within the law for collecting info about what Germans think.

What?

Germany is a powerful country. It's leadership - whoever it is - is going to be spied upon by every nation with the resources to do so.

Or do you really think countries like China, Russia, and even France don't spy on German leaders?

Re:Feelings hurt (4, Insightful)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 6 months ago | (#46610131)

But you're not supposed to get caught!

Re:Feelings hurt (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 6 months ago | (#46610159)

Well, the very least you should do is not get caught. Especially if you just said a few weeks ago that you're so deeply, incredibly sorry that some overzealous idiots at the NSA spied on your good friend Merkel and that you promise that it will never ever happen again, pinky swear with cherry on top.

Re:Feelings hurt (1)

sumdumass (711423) | about 6 months ago | (#46610271)

This spying happened before the "we will nevrr do it again" line that came from Obama.

  It is yet another of Snowden's whistle blowing leaks that only exposed domesttic spying and illegal activities that i was rrvently told was all he exposed.

Re:Feelings hurt (1)

MrBigInThePants (624986) | about 6 months ago | (#46611371)

I see your point, that makes it ok then.

All aboard and full steam ahead!

Re:Feelings hurt (2)

Smauler (915644) | about 6 months ago | (#46611877)

Do you think, then, that just about every other country which is spying on Germany is doing it much better than the US? Is that your argument?

Futile gesture (2)

Hognoxious (631665) | about 6 months ago | (#46610359)

Better safe than sorry, I reckon. Wouldn't want them to bomb Pearl Harbor again.

Re: Futile gesture (2)

Type44Q (1233630) | about 6 months ago | (#46610477)

Are you sure about that? It's quite clear from the historical record that that's exactly what "we" wanted then (the Axis were extremely reluctant to drag the "sleeping giant" into the war, at least until we forced their hand in Indonesia) and it's well understood that Washington had advance knowledge of the impending attack at Pearl and didn't warn the Fleet...

Do you really think things have changed so much that T.P.T.B. would be able to resist another opportunity to manipulate our nationalistic sensibilities so effectively? Me thinks not. ;)

Re: Futile gesture (2)

Maritz (1829006) | about 6 months ago | (#46611301)

and it's well understood that Washington had advance knowledge of the impending attack at Pearl and didn't warn the Fleet...

I used to think that. Then I found out it was bollocks. Both the knowledge, and it being 'well understood'.

Re: Futile gesture (1)

Smauler (915644) | about 6 months ago | (#46611893)

It is bollocks. Without pearl harbour, and Germany invading Russia, the war would have been a lot closer, because the US and the USSR would not have been on the right side.

Good for the NSA (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610099)

Why would you want to open an espionage investigation when the very point of the NSA is espionage? I'm glad that they are using every tool at their disposal to probe our adversaries and potential enemies. I sleep safe at night knowing that my government is doing all it is can to protect my life and my freedom.
Fuck all these other countries. You can't stop us anyway, we are the mightiest, richest, most powrerful nation on Earth and we do whatever the fuck we want.

Re:Good for the NSA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610113)

Not sure if retard or troll.

On the off-chance that anyone actually believes that kind of garbage, no. It is not the NSA's job to spy on allies and neutral parties. It is their job to spy on enemy nations. Espionage is an act of war, and therefor, spying on allies and neutral countries is against international law and violates our treaties with them.

Re:Good for the NSA (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610175)

citation needed

Everyone spys on everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Re:Good for the NSA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610395)

Appeal to popularity.

Re:Good for the NSA (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 6 months ago | (#46611295)

Which, of course, is a fallacy because NSA is currently very short on popularity.

Re:Good for the NSA (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610567)

Everyone speeds while driving eventually. Does this suddenly mean that speed laws should be ignored? Laws are in place for a reason. "But everyone else is doing it!" didn't work when you were 13, and it sure as fuck doesn't work when you're an adult.

Re:Good for the NSA (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | about 6 months ago | (#46610787)

If your enemies become neutral or allies, that's a bonus, but if your allies turn that's a nasty surprise. So there's a case for keeping a very close eye on your allies.

Re:Good for the NSA (1)

vux984 (928602) | about 6 months ago | (#46611239)

If your enemies become neutral or allies, that's a bonus, but if your allies turn that's a nasty surprise.

Doubly nasty when they turn against you precisely because you were spying on them.

At least it won't be a surprise though... since you were spying on them, so you'll know its coming.

Allied countries should of course maintain tabs on each other, but it hardly needs to rise to the level of tapping your closest allies cell phones to be effective.

Re:Good for the NSA (3, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | about 6 months ago | (#46610169)

You are aware that the US still kinda depend on international trade, yes? And that said trade in the US is kinda dependent on exporting high tech equipment?

Now, could you see that this could get mighty complicated if every nation out there starts to distrust everything remotely electronic coming from your place?

Re:Good for the NSA (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610489)

You are aware international trade depends on the US, not the other way around, yes? I guess not because you are one dumb fuck.
Other nations can distrust anything they wish, but they have not other useful alternatives than to deal with us, they are our bitches.

Re:Good for the NSA (1)

Streetlight (1102081) | about 6 months ago | (#46610749)

Not quite. The situation might be a good business opportunity for countries with high tech capability like Japan, Germany, maybe even Poland. Make the infrastructure hardware that's absolutely unhackable. That might put Cisco, Juniper, Dropbox, MS Azure, etc., out of business.

Re:Good for the NSA (1)

deadweight (681827) | about 6 months ago | (#46611695)

Because none of them would ever DREAM of spying on anyone, right? Jesus-On-A-Moped, every nation spies on every other nation to the extend that they can do so and have done for the last few thousand years at least and will likely always do so.

Re:Good for the NSA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612433)

So because other nations might spy on enemies, it's OK for the US to spy on allies in a manner that goes against the spirit of treaties and alliances?

Re:Good for the NSA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612513)

Which treaty or alliance would that be?

Re:Good for the NSA (1)

jma05 (897351) | about 6 months ago | (#46611983)

> Other nations can distrust anything they wish, but they have not other useful alternatives than to deal with us, they are our bitches.

That is true in case of some technologies like chips which are expensive to independently develop for less rich/advanced nations. But a good deal of software stuff is quite replaceable, with minimal pain. There are open source solutions or foreign services that are only slightly behind proprietary or US hosted solutions/services. The current surveillance situation simply incentivizes the alternatives and bridges that gap.

Peru did an open source requirement for government work some time ago and other governments were looking at similar stuff. Microsoft wrote that famous letter, 12 years ago, defending proprietary companies; something which is quite indefensible now.

http://opensource.org/docs/msF... [opensource.org]

They simply did not have enough incentives until now. This isn't rocket science; its mainly a policy decision. China is developing its own Linux-based OS and has already replaced western social media services and search engine with its own etc. etc.

There is already that project that this will cost us $180 Billion in the near future.
http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2013/... [wsj.com]
Let's see if it will bear out.

Re:Good for the NSA (3, Insightful)

erikkemperman (252014) | about 6 months ago | (#46610179)

Fuck all these other countries. You can't stop us anyway, we are the mightiest, richest, most powrerful nation on Earth and we do whatever the fuck we want.

And Americans wonder why they have a reputation for being both arrogant and uninformed...

Ironically, this is exactly what many of the beneficiaries of, um, your foreign policy would love you to do: take all your military kit and, respectfully, piss off.

The problem is that your trampling on "weaker" nations is kind of a large part of your being "mighty" and rich (well, one marginal fraction of you anyway) and your leaders are unlikely to give that up.

Re: Good for the NSA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612593)

0) You just fed the troll. Just ignore that kind of loser idiot... when you feed the troll, the troll wins a little.

1) Trolls should not be trusted to give you a fair summary of how most Americans think. I for one don't agree with this proposed American policy. But hey, thanks so much for painting all Americans with the same brush.

Re:Good for the NSA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610217)

Germany is an enemy and adversary? I think you living in wrong century. Making everyone pissed off is actually doing the opposite. It reduces freedom (TSA, domestic phone surveillance, etc) and increases danger when someone has had enough bullying.

And it might be a wakeup call, but your country is almost broke and the GDP of the EU is higher than the US one.
No other industrial country has so many homeless and poor people per capita than the US. The US can be very happy and grateful that Europe is still an ally of the US. Not an enemy.

>we do whatever the fuck we want.

And you still wonder why you have enemies? Behaving like an asshole bully creates the enemies you try to prevent with all that spying.

Re:Good for the NSA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611111)

It's not like we care whether we have fewer enemies or more. We can bomb the fuck out of you if you look even look at us wrong. We are assholes because we can afford be and there is nothing you can do to stop us. The rest of the world must bend over for us and take it and like it.

Re:Good for the NSA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611393)

I guess you ask for being wiped out.

@people from the US (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610101)

Could someone from the US please tell me and convince me why Germany should still be friends with the USA? 'Cause the USA are certainly NOT behaving like a friend. More like a foe and bully who thinks Germany is an enemy.

Re:@people from the US (4, Informative)

Opportunist (166417) | about 6 months ago | (#46610187)

The US actually is the schoolyard bully of international politics. Just in case someone hasn't noticed that yet. The US exhibits every behaviour of the classic schoolyard bully. He beats up the weaker kids but does not want to get into a fight with anyone that could stand up for himself. He steals the lunch money from those that can't defend themselves. Or, in a more modern form, the bully "buys" your cellphone for a buck so you can't say he stole it from you. He bought it, see? Same goes for resources, on an international scale. Should a teacher (or the UN) take a stern look at them, they'll start smooching up to them and pretend that they're gonna help the teacher to keep the smaller bullies in reign, and since that's quite comfortable, they'll gladly take that offer.

International politics and schoolyard politics ain't that different. It's the same shit on a bigger scale, that's all, but the silly billys are the same.

Re:@people from the US (2, Interesting)

sumdumass (711423) | about 6 months ago | (#46610401)

Nonsense. WWII could have been completely avoided if we knew about the plans to remilitarizr the rhine before it happened. A german genersl wrote in his diary that if any of the countries party to the treaty of versalles would have enforced the terms of the treaty, germany would have been stopped well before it became a war.

We now know that Russia tried to colapse the US dollar in 2008 and china took steps to avoid it because of how heavily invested they were at the time. We know sanctions did not work on Iraq leaving war as a likely option because France and Russia exploited the oil for food program to get sweat deals on oil from Iraq in excess of sanctioned amounts with corruption in the UN reaching as far up as the family of Kofi Annan- the then secretary general of the UN (the highest ranking position there).

Spying on friendly countries is a neccesity. Those counties mrntion were all friendly at the time. Taking actions specifically keeps conflicts to a smaller scale unlike with WWII. You have a lot to learn it would seem. Even your so called comparisons of school yard bullies are off.

Re:@people from the US (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610423)

>WWII could have been completely avoided if we knew about the plans to remilitarizr the rhine before it happened.

ROFL. The most delusional comment of the day.

Remind me again why sanction on the Iraq were necessary? And why the 2nd Iraq war was justified. Please say WMD. I want to laugh.

> France and Russia exploited the oil for food program

Oh noes! As opposed to the US and the Dick Chaney company who are now exploiting the Iraq and enforcing sweet sweet deals? Pot meet kettle.
 

Re:@people from the US (1)

sumdumass (711423) | about 6 months ago | (#46610507)

I would thimk taining delusionally ignorant of history would be more funny to people looking at you instead of yourself. But yes, it is a well known fact that Germany violated conditions of their treaty in order to raise the military might before invading other countries.

And sactions o. Iraq were neccedary because they weren't complying with the terms of the cease fire from the first gulf war.

I take it you went to public school in the US. I understand why you post AC. I would be embarrased to have you post associate with any online persona associated with me too.

Re:@people from the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610627)

Someone with such poor orthography and grammar should NEVER doubt the education of others.

Re:@people from the US (1)

MrBigInThePants (624986) | about 6 months ago | (#46611377)

Your knowledge of history is the one that is flawed.

It was typical for US pundits to PRAISE the Nazi's for their business acumen and ability to get the population on board with their all encompassing industry and capitalism.

It was also known that they were building an army but it was politely ignored by the rest of the world.

Re:@people from the US (1)

sumdumass (711423) | about 6 months ago | (#46611759)

Nothing you said invalidates what i said or contradicts my knowlege of history.

All you did was state details of what i stated. Perhaps your definition of flawed is different from the rest of the world's.

Oh, and BTW, the significance of Germany building an army and that being ignored is that the treaty of versalles forbid them from building a military or militarizing their manufacturing sector. If this wasn't ignored, WWII would have been stopped before it happened.

Re:@people from the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611007)

An American talking about corruption in the UN? How rich bearing in Mind the Bush family started two wars to help give lucrative contracts to their friends.

Re:@people from the US (1)

sumdumass (711423) | about 6 months ago | (#46611717)

Even if what you say is remotely true, which it is not, one of those wars was only possible because of the coruption in the UN.

And that is rich

Re:@people from the US (1)

pigiron (104729) | about 6 months ago | (#46610201)

Cuz' we buy lots of BMW's.

Re:@people from the US (1)

stevez67 (2374822) | about 6 months ago | (#46610203)

When you consider that Germany is doing the same to every country on the planet you begin to understand why this whole Snowden/NSA/Spying thing is not news except to those suffering from terminal naivete. Of course every other country is doing the same ... so at the end of the day it's all equal.

Re:@people from the US (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610281)

Citation needed.

Yes. Germany has it's intelligence service (called BND. Bundesnachrichtendienst), but it does nowhere the same things with the same scope as what the NSA is doing. Not even close. And in particular not on a supposed ally and friend. Why are you an ally if you can't trust them?

You are paranoid. You (the US) think that everyone is your enemy. Guess who has the same stance? North Korea.
And ironically that's exactly what will one day isolate you, like North Korea. Distrusting and bullying everyone will one day make actually everyone your real enemy.

Re:@people from the US (1)

cryptolemur (1247988) | about 6 months ago | (#46610331)

I assume BND has been collaborating with US intellicenge a lot. Now, of course, it appears that anybody in Germany having collaborated with NSA (and it's brethen) or GHCQ should be considered a traitor and be put on trial.

Really, every European Intelligence Agency should be purged from persons who advocate international cooperation. And purged such a way that several genrations of intelligence people will think twice about "exchanging information".

Of course, what remains of international terrorism will have (again) grrreat time operating globally, but trust is something we can not afford anymore.

Re:@people from the US (1)

currently_awake (1248758) | about 6 months ago | (#46610363)

I think this is the major point here, the NSA is a spy data broker that works for others. The Americans don't care what the gov of Germany is doing, but the German security guys very much do.

Re:@people from the US (1)

Mashiki (184564) | about 6 months ago | (#46611019)

Citation needed.

Seriously? Even Canadians know that the RCMP, CSIS, and CSEC spy friend, foe, even on their own citizens.

But when (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612233)

... that's exactly what will one day isolate you ...

It's kind of difficult to isolate them when everybody buys their currency, their hardware/software, their music/movies. Look at the creation of the TSA: How many countries refused to hand over passenger lists of their citizens? How many countries refused to participate in the no-fly lists? How many countries refused to upgrade their security to expensive body scanners? OK, it took 10 years for some countries to obey the USA, but now, all leaders of allied countries have their hands around their ankles

Re:@people from the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612523)

Yes. Germany has it's intelligence service (called BND. Bundesnachrichtendienst), but it does nowhere the same things with the same scope as what the NSA is doing. Not even close.

And you know this how?

Re:@people from the US (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610251)

The US has no interest in being your friend. It never has. You are potentially useful and thus the US acts in a certain way that may seem like it considers you its friend..but rest assured, the minute you are no longer useful you will be treated accordingly.

The reverse is also true. Germany has no interest in being the US's friend. It wants security and money from the US, that is all.

Re:@people from the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610339)

The time Germany wanted money from the US were about 60 years ago.
The GDP of Europe is higher than that of the US. And within the EU, Germany is the biggest economic power. Security? Yes. During the cold war. Back in the 60-80s.
Please tell me again what we want from the US? Except being able to sell our cars.

Re:@people from the US (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610487)

Economic Security of the whole EU not just Germany against Russia, because somebody has to do it and it is not Germany.

Re:@people from the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610705)

ROFL. Are you mad?
You know that German's economy is bigger than the russian one?

Re:@people from the US (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 6 months ago | (#46612087)

Re 'The time Germany wanted money from the US were about 60 years ago."
Yes the NSA help with a new expanding West German telephone and later data network was great for catching East German spies and other groups incompatible with West German democracy.
What West Germany was very slow to understand was that with the NSA they had many other nations staff, contractors getting all of the same West German communications and political insight over decades for free.
The GCHQ was very interesting in the West German reaction to the UK entering the EU (Common market), UK Tornado aircraft sales to Germany (NATO).
All this was sold to West Germany gov as support for work relating to East Germany and other mil issues.
Only later did Germany seem to finally fully understand why the UK seemed to be so ready for any German export positions or German foreign policy.
Long term only winners where German staff and contractors keeping the taps/splitters working and US/UK exports.
The gift of US and UK crypto was secure against East Germany and Soviet Union/Russia in many ways but back to plain text junk over generations just as todays 'internet' experts seem to be finally understanding.
Other nations understood that all crypto and telco kit they bought was junk but had to be used.
West/Germany seems to have trusted the crypto and telco junk or had its own experts never question/understand what it was installing.

@anyone that believes privacy is a human right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611397)

Unless their is political and economic fallout towards US, nothing will change. The US government (not to be confused with average Americans, most of whom hate what their government is doing) will keep spying.

Real change would require:

- Boycott of US tech products from critical government US in other nations.
- Some in the NSA need to be put in prison. It will make others question what they are doing (rather than just say they were following orders)
- The NSA is too corrupt to be salvageable. It should be completely dissolved and replaced with a new organization with far better public oversight
- US laws need to be changed that make it clear that its criminal offense to use mass surveillance either domestically or on foreigners
- International treaties need to be created that make it clear which forms of spying are a violation of human rights (because all the NSA is the best at it, they aren't the only ones doing it)

Re:@people from the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611545)

Could someone from the US please tell me and convince me why Germany should still be friends with the USA? 'Cause the USA are certainly NOT behaving like a friend. More like a foe and bully who thinks Germany is an enemy.

World War I and World War II

Re:@people from the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612559)

We're going to need a little more - you're going to have to make your actual point.

Re:@people from the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611779)

-Who are these guys?
-They are Nazis, from Germany.
-Great. Now shut up and listen!

Everyone Spies.. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610111)

Get used to it.. Stop being butthurt and increase your security.

Re:Everyone Spies.. (2)

geekbastard (889412) | about 6 months ago | (#46610241)

Get used to it.. Stop being butthurt and increase your security.

That ranks right up there with 'if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear'.

Re:Everyone Spies.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610483)

If the USA and UK can hack into your systems, so can Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, etc.

Re:Everyone Spies.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612615)

So? Russia, China, Iran, North Korea etc don't pretend they're the most free country in the world who wouldn't do anything bad.

Let's hear about the exceptions for once (1, Insightful)

axlash (960838) | about 6 months ago | (#46610197)

It's kind of getting old hearing about the latest spying activity of the NSA.

It would be more interesting to hear who they're *not* spying on these days.

Re:Let's hear about the exceptions for once (1)

lennier1 (264730) | about 6 months ago | (#46610457)

It would be more interesting to hear who they're *not* spying on these days.

A much shorter list like that would certainly save a lot of time.

Putin got it right (4, Informative)

roscocoltran (1014187) | about 6 months ago | (#46610231)

Following the shutdown of services from Mastercard and Visa in Russia, he is pushing for a russian payment system. At least he is facing his responsibilities, not like european leaders who, even facing the evidence that they are spied, won't do anything and still rely on US products.

We must ban Cisco equipment and Microsoft/Apple systems from our governments offices, once and for all. There are alternative solutions available, let's develop them, let's deploy them. Before, there was a risk. Now there is a fact. So what are we waiting for ?

Re:Putin got it right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610319)

Inertia. Developing everything from the ground up, including CPUs, GPUs and network chips, and then replace the whole infrastructure with EU made stuff is simply one enormous pain in the ass. And prohibitory expensive. Private companies are risk averse due to the red tape and limited market and the governments are idiots and incompetent at managing it. As every single IT project throughout Europe will demonstrate.

Re:Putin got it right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612687)

Private companies are risk averse due to the red tape and limited market

Private companies are averse to spending their own money to make it. What they really want is money gifted to them by customers, government, and employees.

Example: at my current place of work, they get regular - significant - grants to make local programming, they were just gifted more than a million dollars to keep broadcasting, and they accidentally underpay their minimum wage employees to make their budget. They also refuse to pay their salaried employees anything for overtime.

My previous place of work required a minimum of 50 hours a week, but only paid for 40. They also engaged in insurance fraud, onselling second hand equipment that had been written off simply because the owner decided he needed to make some money.

Ban US tech companies from government use (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611315)

Since the US government seems to force companies to put in backdoors, any rational foreign government would ban some US tech products from critical government use where privacy is a priority. (not to mention the only way the mass NSA surveillance will end is if US companies are hit hard which will make them push back much harder than they have done till Snowden revalations)

Complete ban of following US tech products for secure government use (and any large company that doesn't want its critical data on NSA servers)
---
Microsoft (OS, MS SQL DB)
Apple (OS and hardware backdoors)
Oracle (Java and DB)
Cisco (All networking products)
Plus any other US company that produces networking, close source operating system, or database products should have the product in question banned.

Highly suspect companies whose products should only be used for non-critical use or non-networked use
---
Google
Yahoo
Facebook
Intel (processors have have probability of hardware backdoors)
AMD (processors have have probability of hardware backdoors)
IBM (mainframes and mainframe OS)
Adobe (flash and pdf products)
HP
SAP
(insert any large US tech company here)

Re:Ban US tech companies from government use (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611735)

SAP is a german company. JFYI.

Time for DOXing (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610237)

And put all of these fuckers from the NSA and GCHQ inside a huge "public" database. Not editing any names for once, no matter the consequences.

Spies spying? (1)

H0p313ss (811249) | about 6 months ago | (#46610293)

I'm shocked. SHOCKED!

Seriously, WTF did you THINK they were doing exactly?

Re:Spies spying? (4, Informative)

khasim (1285) | about 6 months ago | (#46610589)

GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on POTENTIAL ENEMY GOVERNMENTS are okay.

GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on ALLIES are not okay.

GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on PRIVATE companies in allied nations are not okay.

And before you get to the next part I'll just say that GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on CITIZENS of that government are also not okay.

Re:Spies spying? (1)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | about 6 months ago | (#46611089)

GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on POTENTIAL ENEMY GOVERNMENTS are okay.

ALL governments are potential enemy governments.

BLOCKQUOTE>GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on ALLIES are not okay.

Let's see. First the Brits were our enemies and the French were our friends.

Then the Brits were our enemies and the French were our enemies too.

Later on, the Brits were our friends, the French were our friends, and the Germans were our friends. And the Japanese didn't think much of us.

Then the Brits were our friends, the French were our friends, the Russians were our friends, the Japanese were our friends, and the Germans were our enemies.

Then the Russians became our enemies, and the Germans became our friends.

Then the Russians became our friends (in the Atlantic), our enemies (in the Pacific), the Japanese became our enemies, and the Germans became our enemies

Then the Russians became our enemies and the Germans and Japanese became our friends.

Then the Russians became our friends.

Then the Russians became our enemies.

I won't even get into Italy, Austria, and China.

TL;DR - friends change into enemies and vice versa. Spy on everyone, so you won't be surprised when friends become enemies.

Re:Spies spying? (1)

Arker (91948) | about 6 months ago | (#46611933)

"Spy on everyone, so you won't be surprised when friends become enemies."

Yes, spy on your friends, that way you can *guarantee* they will eventually become enemies No more surprises!

Yeah, but there is a downside here, can you see it?

This shocks people??? (1, Insightful)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | about 6 months ago | (#46610307)

So, the NSA is doing foreign signals intelligence, eh?

As it is mandated by law to do...

Somehow, I can't get really excited that the NSA is actually doing its job. And yes, spying on foreign leaders is part of the job of the NSA, as it is for EVERY espionage organization in history....

Mass indiscriminate surveillance isn't the NSAs jo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610675)

So then your all for foreign governments spying on everyone in the US government and doing mass surveillance on all US citizens right? They are just doing their job after all.

Re:This shocks people??? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610733)

Everyone knows nations spy on each other. The problem is, this is a case where you spy on your BFF - another NATO member. Someone you promise to defend if they get attacked.

In this world we only have 1 thing that we rely on. We *trust* each other to follow the law. We *trust* each other to behave properly. Once that trust is not there, then what do we really have?

There are two ways to violate this trust principle. One is for A party to renege on their obligations - ie. lie to party B. The other way is for party B to illustrate to party A that they do not trust them in the first place - ie. spying on them. In other words, if A and B are married, how long do you think that marriage will last if B is sending private detectives to snoop on A?

Why do you think CIA and NSA were not suppose to spy on US citizens? *trust* is the reason. If the gov't doesn't trust its citizens, there is a big, big problem.

Re:This shocks people??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610815)

No the NSA is using it's war powers to engage in insider trading and economic espionage on the behalf of American political and corporate interests. This isn't simple corruption when officials abuse the power of their office. The NSA has been given war powers, misuse like this is treason.

Re:This shocks people??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611461)

And your meh attitude is exactly what America will get in return from the world when your country goes completely to shit. Enjoy.

Re:This shocks people??? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 6 months ago | (#46611903)

The question is what Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium and Denmark signed up for when sharing their nations telco systems in bulk with the UK and USA.
A one way deal with Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium and Denmark getting extra support in other mil areas vs the USA and UK looking at lucrative trade deals?
Now German private interest and firms with world wide contracts have to face the reality of their own German gov actively, over generations working against German exports, technical secrets and export creating creativity.
Even German political leaders are handed junk crypto phones by their own gov experts and telco firms, totally open to 5 other nations, a few more nations friendly to the USA and contractors.
What can Germany do? The crypto standards it uses to stay in the international marketplace are junk, its own top crypto and telco experts are more friendly other nations staff. German trade negotiations and weapons sales, energy deals are open to many other nations leaders and random cleared staff during negotiations.
The good news is Germany bands seem to be going for huge longterm global exports rather than falling for short term NATO political games.
Groups within NATO and the US playing color revolution vs German brands need for raw materials and global export markets.
Over the years German firms seem to have understood not to say too much on junk telco networks, avoid provided conference/office space and seem to be wining more long term exports.

Re:This shocks people??? (1)

Arker (91948) | about 6 months ago | (#46611925)

Spying on a nation we are at war with? Spying on their military capabilities? Ok, that would be part of their job description.

Spying on allied nations? Commercial and political espionage? Not the same thing. Not at all.

Shocked? Not I, not anymore. But folks that still believe the state can do what it's told, not so much.

Shocking it's not as if there was a resason ? (4, Informative)

Crashmarik (635988) | about 6 months ago | (#46610399)

http://articles.chicagotribune... [chicagotribune.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I... [wikipedia.org]

So people are upset about the NSA spying on companies and a country that was willing to look the other way on some very questionable practices ?

A little reality check here. George Washington was one of our first spymasters,
  http://www.amazon.com/George-W... [amazon.com]
And the value of intelligence information to our well being has not decreased one bit since the revolution.

US has committed act of war (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610683)

Spying against security threats is one thing. Spying against everyone is an act of war and human rights violation. Even the US government itself views spying on its citizens and government as an act of aggression.

Don't tell my wife... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610665)

......that I've been carrying on an affair with Rachel from Cardholder Services. Pretty please, Mr. NSA man?

Seriously, how the fuck did they manage to miss 9/11, LIBOR rigging, the Boston Marathon bombing, etc.? Are they spending too much time on Yahoo Chat and Second Life? Or are they incompetent?

I should hope so (0)

stenvar (2789879) | about 6 months ago | (#46610889)

German companies are some of the biggest arms dealers in the world and have sold arms to regimes that are hostile to the US. Likewise, you'd expect German satellite data providers and German financial service providers to do business with groups that are hostile to the US. And German governments have been trying to make trade deals and agreements that harm the US. The German government itself was monitoring many of its parliamentarians for anti-democratic communist activities, and Germany is a hotbed of Neo-Nazi activities. So, I would very much hope that US intelligence services are keeping a tab on the activities of both German private companies and the German government.

Re:I should hope so (1)

cheesybagel (670288) | about 6 months ago | (#46611715)

German companies are some of the biggest arms dealers in the world and have sold arms to regimes that are hostile to the US.

Nice joke.

Re:I should hope so (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46611781)

Germany is a hotbed of Neo-Nazi activity by German definitions. Hint: The US republican party would be instantly banned in Germany for being right-wing extremists.

Re:I should hope so (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612503)

You don't know what you're talking about. German Neo-Nazis are physically violent, extremely racist, and glorify Hitler. There are entire regions in Germany where it is not safe for a person of color or even a Turk to travel.

Re:I should hope so (2)

AHuxley (892839) | about 6 months ago | (#46611939)

Germany lags the USA and Russia in arms sales. Even the numbers can be tricky with smaller nations e.g. the UK firms doing very well out of US needs during the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A... [wikipedia.org]

Re:I should hope so (1)

stenvar (2789879) | about 6 months ago | (#46612677)

Germany lags the USA and Russia in arms sales.

We aren't playing a game of "who is morally superior". We're talking about whether the US has a reasonable national security interest in spying on Germany, and it does, as long as Germany remains a large exporter of advanced weapon systems.

everything such a big fauxking secret (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46610953)

phony does as phony is; The court request said “the FBI made more than one visit to talk with Anzor, Zubeidat [Dzhokhar and Tamerlan’s parents] and Tamerlan, question Tamerlan about his internet searches, and asked him to be an informant, reporting on the Chechen and Muslim community,” as quoted by WBUR Boston. http://rt.com/usa/fbi-tsarnaev-informant-boston-bombing-001/

If I were them.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 months ago | (#46612861)

I wouldn't upset Germany too much.... you know....all green and everything....but can still put some fuckers in line if they need to....
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