×

Announcing: Slashdot Deals - Explore geek apps, games, gadgets and more. (what is this?)

Thank you!

We are sorry to see you leave - Beta is different and we value the time you took to try it out. Before you decide to go, please take a look at some value-adds for Beta and learn more about it. Thank you for reading Slashdot, and for making the site better!

China Cracks Down On Bitcoin, Cuts Off Exchanges' Bank Access

timothy posted about 9 months ago | from the state-is-still-not-your-friend dept.

Bitcoin 100

jfruh (300774) writes "Bitcoin has made many governments and regulators uncomfortable, and the Chinese government is responding to the challenge it poses with its usual lack of subtlety. Two Chinese bitcoin exchanges have found themselves cut off from the money economy, as Chinese banks, under pressure from the government, refuse to do business with them."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Chinese getting uncomfortable... (2, Insightful)

korbulon (2792438) | about 9 months ago | (#46651537)

with the idea of someone else cutting in on their currency manipulation business. Yuan? You can't have.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (4, Insightful)

i kan reed (749298) | about 9 months ago | (#46651555)

Or you know, a well known totalitarian government stamping out a black market currency, you know, to control their citizens, like they've been doing forever.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (3, Insightful)

ackthpt (218170) | about 9 months ago | (#46651601)

Or you know, a well known totalitarian government stamping out a black market currency, you know, to control their citizens, like they've been doing forever.

Funny how they can be all quiet on things like this, then go at them like a rancor beast.

Fear is a great motivator. Anything they can't control makes their fearful.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

Anonymous Psychopath (18031) | about 9 months ago | (#46651843)

Or you know, a well known totalitarian government stamping out a black market currency, you know, to control their citizens, like they've been doing forever.

This move has nothing to do with controlling their citizens and has everything to do with their continued manipulation of their currency. RMB is very tightly controlled by their government and they have a model that's working for them.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (3, Informative)

PRMan (959735) | about 9 months ago | (#46651895)

Sure. When people are spending all their money building fake malls and fake cities, that's "totally working". [Thumbs up!]

Totally working == 30% discount for goods/services (2)

drnb (2434720) | about 9 months ago | (#46652385)

Sure. When people are spending all their money building fake malls and fake cities, that's "totally working".

"Totally working" is undervaluing their currency so that all goods and services that they offer to the US have an inherent built-in 30% discount.

Its not really the low wages that make manufacturing so attractive in China, its this 30% discount on *everything* compared to domestic US manufacture.

Re:Totally working == 30% discount for goods/servi (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46653011)

There is also the issue of China's monopoly on rare earths. That gives them another price advantage.

Of course, there will be the people who say that China's quality is better, so that's why companies use their factories... but in my experience, if you want quality, there are tons of countries which can do the job right (US makers, Australia, Germany, Sweden, the UK, Canada, Japan, etc.) However, if an importer wants bargain basement prices, and quality isn't that important, then China seems to be the go to guys. Yes, China -can- make good stuff, but usually they are used because of the price advantage.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (3, Insightful)

lgw (121541) | about 9 months ago | (#46651991)

Communist economies are fake economies. Always. In the bad days of the USSR, you couldn't buy anything you really wanted with Rubles, but of course anything else was quite illegal. China today isn't nearly as bad, and they have a mix of genuine capitalist (owned by individuals, not the government) business and government business, so you can buy some stuff with the yuan. But they still have too much fake economy to allow people to legally buy and sell as they wish, and the black market is still a big deal and threatens government control.

Contrast that to the US, where the only large black market is for drugs, and it's arguable whether anything significant would change if the popular drugs were legalized. It certainly wouldn't bring down the government.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46652205)

Communist economies are fake economies.

And just as often, Capitalist economies are as well.

Because Asset Backed Paper Commodities were basically a giant Ponzi scheme where garbage debt was laundered and passed off to other suckers by the very banks who gave out credit like it was candy.

Very often, the underpinnings of non-Communist economies are complete fantasy, and the people who claim to know how it works don't usually have a real clue, just how they believe it should work -- which makes it as ideologically driven as Communism. And often just as false

Do you know what CAPITALISM is ? (4, Informative)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about 9 months ago | (#46657791)

Communist economies are fake economies.

And just as often, Capitalist economies are as well.

Because Asset Backed Paper Commodities were basically a giant Ponzi scheme where garbage debt was laundered and passed off to other suckers by the very banks who gave out credit like it was candy.

Your example does NOT fit the "Capitalism" moniker.

True Capiltalism abhors ponzi schemes.

True Capitalism does not create money out of thin air.

True Capitalism does not engage in Quantitative Easing.

What America practices is very far from True Capitalism.

Re:Do you know what CAPITALISM is ? (1)

Alioth (221270) | about 8 months ago | (#46659385)

I hear bagpipes.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46652249)

Communist economies are fake economies. Always. In the bad days of the USSR, you couldn't buy anything you really wanted with Rubles, but of course anything else was quite illegal.

That is very, very false.

Please learn what capital controls are. You may also realize that Iceland is not a communist country, yet, it has similar capital controls as the old Soviet Union.

It's fun sitting at the top of the world printing worthless paper when many need to use it for international transactions. I wander how much stuff there would be in Walmart if China indicated they would no longer accept USD for goods, but only Euro or Yuan.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (2, Insightful)

lgw (121541) | about 9 months ago | (#46652479)

Please learn what capital controls are. You may also realize that Iceland is not a communist country, yet, it has similar capital controls as the old Soviet Union.

The 2008 Icelandic financial crash was quite possibly the largest financial collapse in history (bigger ones await us, of course, when the sovereign debt bubble eventually pops, but Iceland was a big deal). The IMF really helped out there, mostly thanks to Scandi generosity and the awesomely great decision to not bail out the banks there. If only we had been so wise.

So, yes, Iceland has significant capital controls to keep the dressings on the wounds while they heal. But Iceland's looking a lot better now, and the capital controls have perhaps overstayed their welcome. In any case, they had nothing at all to do with Communism, and it was still quite legal to buy consumer goods with krona on free markets - there weren't consumer controls AFAIK. Of course, the sharply fall in the krona meant imports fell sharply in practice, but local businesses that weren't banks kept going as always, though of course hurt by the general economy.

I wander how much stuff there would be in Walmart if China indicated they would no longer accept USD for goods, but only Euro or Yuan.

Well, a really significant (if gradually shrinking) chunk of China's economy, perhaps still the majority, is making stuff for the US. If they suddenly stopped doing that, China would implode.

China is slowly growing away from that, and the US is slowly bringing manufacturing back home (to robots, don't expect any new manufacturing jobs ... anywhere, ever). As long as it's gradual, it's fine. But no one anywhere would benefit from suddenly destabilizing that, so no one will.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

mlts (1038732) | about 9 months ago | (#46653143)

Isn't the Yuan pinned to the dollar right now, so if China stopped accepting USD, it would only bite them, especially their debt holdings?

What is really worrisome is if China gets oil trade to move to a basket system and off the US dollar. Then things will get really pear-shaped, really quickly.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 9 months ago | (#46658141)

Don't worry, your manufacturing sector instead of just services and resources with save you from ... hang on, there was a manufacturing sector there a while ago, where did it go? China? OK, so you are all fucked and the best hope is to be mercenaries for hire for China.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46662285)

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CNY&view=10Y

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

mlts (1038732) | about 9 months ago | (#46653095)

China isn't really Communist, nor communist. It definitely is a capitalist society with some vestiges of a command economy left, with the government having a voice as a part of any companies and ventures on their soil.

(All and all, that's not a bad thing... I wonder how better off the US would be if a FTC or SEC official had a say in all board meetings.)

It is a different culture. Some of what they have is good (they invested in core infrastructure while here in the US, cars were crushed, and China actually is trying to move to a decent UHC system), but some isn't.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

lgw (121541) | about 9 months ago | (#46653267)

They still have all the totalitarian trappings of Communism, is the thing. It's the dictatorial control of the people that bitcoin threatens, not the broader Chinese economy IMO.

All and all, that's not a bad thing... I wonder how better off the US would be if a FTC or SEC official had a say in all board meetings

Are you familiar with the concept of regulatory capture? [smbc-comics.com] It would get far, far worse. The power of money to corrupt the government is large, and giving the government more control of companies will be a terrible mistake for as long as that remains true.

Some of what they have is good (they invested in core infrastructure while here in the US, cars were crushed

The US manufacturing base has never fallen. Don't mistake manufacturing jobs for manufacturing capacity. Manufacturing is now coming back from Chinese workers to US robots - it's why the Chinese economy is on the rocks.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46653715)

No, they have all the totalitarian trappings of their authoritarian regime, which have existed in various forms since the Qin Emperors.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46653721)

That is true. I can personally attest to that, because of a business proposal I was researching, and how I was going to make some types of widgets. Here in the US, I can get some square footage in an industrial park, have another local company build and program the robots for the task at hand... and for things that couldn't be easily done, one local shop can sell me a machine that does both additive fabrication (sintering Iconel) as well as subtractive CNC. (The machine's name is a Lumex Avance 25.)

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't consider using robots something that causes job loss. It means safer conditions for everyone involved (if I have a bad tool path in a mill that slices a robotic arm's wiring off, I'm out some cash... but getting that fixed is a lot easier than paying worker's comp because someone lost some body parts.)

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

rtb61 (674572) | about 8 months ago | (#46658943)

They are in fact a fully fascist totalitarian government. With the majority of senior government officials involved in private for profit business operations. They fully use their positions of power within government to give their private for profit businesses competitive advantage. Major example being prior to privatising the government steel manufacturing business, the government bought and stockpiled steel, driving up it's price and hence increase the public price of the steel manufacturing business, prior to selling it. Those empty cities, care needs to be taken if foreign investment seeks to spend on major constructions developments, as the government is likely to use it's power to keep developments empty, force investors in bankruptcy and seize the developments and then make the available at a discount to select local populations.

Right now the government of China is knowingly manipulating the corruptibility of capitalism to economically target foreign business and in turn foreign countries. They are now pushing into arms exports, providing low cost arms and munitions to those countries opposing competitors to China's growing power and influence (especially into trading arms for primary resources). The fascist government of China directly competes with existing major multinational corporations and is seeking to displace them with major Chinese corporations, this to tackle the puppet governments of those multinational corporations (weaken the puppet masters in order to weaken their control).

As China has slipped from communist to capitalist so the rest of us have slipped into the espionage stage of the Corporate Wars, where non-puppet governments are now waging an espionage war against the puppet governments of multi-national corporations the chief puppet of course being The United State of America. An interesting side note many of structures of law enforcement and regulation are starting to resist their blatant corporate control and the puppet status of their government the political appointees running their agencies in a corrupt corporate biased manner. This espionage war includes the funding and establishing of 'rebel' elements attacking governments that are not controlled by multi-national corporations, these rebel elements are engaged into anything from protests through to riots through to all out civil war. The next increase will be the targeting the executives and boardrooms of those promoting the corporate wars. Pointless fighting the puppets and their government agencies, much smarter to target the more accessible, less defensible, less numerous and difficult to replace.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

lgw (121541) | about 8 months ago | (#46662669)

I think you've read one too many Gibson novels. Corruption of the US government by moneyed interests is a real problem, to be sure, but it's been worse historically without a SF dystopia.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

rtb61 (674572) | about 8 months ago | (#46666657)

When corporations ie the military industrial complex engage in initiating wars the they extend that battlefield to the boardroom, especially when they engage countries that are capable of targeted them directly. They do most definitely do deserve it, so nothing science fiction about but something decidedly very moral about it. Once personally targeted the chicken hawks that they and the puppet politicians are, will sue for peace not that they can be trusted of course but they can always be readily targeted again.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

lgw (121541) | about 8 months ago | (#46666743)

But it's less of a problem than 100 years ago, and far less than 100 years before that.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

rtb61 (674572) | about 8 months ago | (#46668077)

See you just dont get it, it is not about whether it is worse or better than at any particular time in history it is all about how accesible those targets are now. Before, well, you had to go through the whole base and the expanded and finally worn down defence force to get to them, now, well not so much so. Applying modern technology and more open borders, well, basically they can reach out and touch pretty much anyone, no matter how rich or powerful. Personally targeted weapon system from extended ranges are now practicable regardless of protection attempted, so that is the difference. Being the puppet masters in the background safe from retaliation is simply no longer possible, that is the change and that will reflect changes in tactics.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651625)

I love how I warned people this was going to happen in the last Bitcoin post, and the Bitcoin investors modded me to -1.

I hope that they got out in time...nah. I hope that they lost millions for screwing up my Slashdot karma :)

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (2)

bhcompy (1877290) | about 9 months ago | (#46651695)

I'm pretty sure Anonymous Coward's Slashdot karma is already in the shitter

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46652965)

Or, maybe I didn't want to waste more karma points by trying to talk sense into the Bitcoin fanboy community.

Hell... many of them got into Bitcoin around $10 and think that they are going to become Internet millionaires a few years from now. Just like the people who bought .com stocks in 1998.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

PRMan (959735) | about 9 months ago | (#46651907)

Get out? Why? Bitcoin still has so far to go. Still haven't lost any money on it. BTW, did you hear that Bitstamp just started taking deposits in Yuan?

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

codebonobo (2762819) | about 9 months ago | (#46654697)

yes, additionally, btc-e.com as well. That's the nature of this many headed hydra, it cannot be regulated by states so easily.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

Ritz_Just_Ritz (883997) | about 9 months ago | (#46652937)

I think their real fear is that it's a perfect vehicle to circumvent capital controls and allows people to transfer significant amounts of cash OUT of the country.

Many of those doing the transferring are part of the government. So how to reign it in without any official "enforcement?" Eliminate the ability to deposit cash into the exchanges. Solves their immediate problem without any embarrassing prosecutions.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

mysidia (191772) | about 9 months ago | (#46656429)

I think their real fear is that it's a perfect vehicle to circumvent capital controls and allows people to transfer significant amounts of cash OUT of the country.

In that case they SHOULD have that fear. Because BTC is a nearly perfect mechanism apparently designed to be capable of just that.

Providing the availability of exchanges willing to cooperate by accepting Yuan/RMB deposits.

Re:Chinese getting uncomfortable... (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 9 months ago | (#46658149)

The "perfect" example in use seems to be some sort of jelly based confectionary that's made in China and a barter token for an underground economy in North Korea. The world is strange before you even go anywhere near ponzi scams like Bitcoin.

the point of digital currency.... (0)

grumpyman (849537) | about 9 months ago | (#46651607)

...has to do with no reliant on existing financial systems and currency, right? Just 'generate the money' and start using it, don't go back and forth then this will be an non-issue... right?

I am reminded of Flainian Pobble Beads... (1)

QilessQi (2044624) | about 9 months ago | (#46653877)

Yes, as I understand it, the whole point is that BTC are meant to be spent on goods/services, and the recipients can then spend their BTC on the goods/services they need, and so on, without the need to ever convert to or from other currencies except maybe to pay local taxes. In such a world, the exchanges become far less important.

But I don't think we're at the point yet where a community of people buy groceries, gasoline, pay rent and utilities, etc. purely by using BTC. And if the exchanges can't be trusted, the BTC user base may start to degrade to much smaller population of speculators, hoarders, and true believers waiting for a change in the technological or political winds.

At which point you basically have the Flainian Pobble Beads from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which are only exchangeable for other Flainian Pobble Beads...

Idiots: (4, Insightful)

mythosaz (572040) | about 9 months ago | (#46651621)

Anyone keeping coins in an exchange for any longer than necessary to exchange them is an idiot.

Re:Idiots: (1)

PRMan (959735) | about 9 months ago | (#46651919)

This. People keep asking me if I lost any bitcoins in the Mt. Gox fiasco. Um, no. Because I don't leave my bitcoins on exchanges. The wallet is pretty easy to use.

Re:Idiots: (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46652187)

This. People keep asking me if I lost any bitcoins in the Mt. Gox fiasco. Um, no. Because I don't leave my bitcoins on exchanges. The wallet is pretty easy to use.

That's easy for us nerds to say, but for many people this sort of stuff is hard. They want a website with a login and password, and they want their coins to be reasonably secure. They want to be able to access those coins from any computer where they don't have permission to install programs, but still trust to not have malware - like a well-maintained workplace computer. And when something does go wrong and coins vanish, they want their "bank" to have deposit insurance and fix it for them.

We can snidely turn up our noses at their foolishness, or we could invest in practical user-friendly solutions so the MyBitcoin/MtGox fiasco doesn't repeat with every new load of newbies.

Re:Idiots: (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651923)

Good advice, but very much beside the point. Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals are not affected. The Chinese government just doesn't want people trading Renminbi for Bitcoins or vice versa, so they ordered the (fiat) bank accounts of Chinese Bitcoin exchanges shut by April 15th. This means that anyone wanting to buy or sell Bitcoin through one of those exchanges will no longer have an easy way to get money to or from the exchanges. They can get their Bitcoins in and out, but what good is that if you can't pay for what you're buying and can't get the money for what you're selling? So far, the exchanges have gotten around limitations on their fiat handling by using personal banking accounts and third party payment processors, but those aren't allowed to handle funds for Bitcoin exchanges anymore either after April 15th. Btw, Bitcoin as such has not been banned. Chinese are still allowed to buy, own and sell Bitcoins, but with the restrictions on trade in place, it looks like cash transactions from now on, which pulls into question the official reason for this crackdown, which is supposed to protect people from the high risk of the volatile Bitcoin market.

Re:Idiots: (1)

Idimmu Xul (204345) | about 9 months ago | (#46652231)

Anyone keeping coins in an exchange for any longer than necessary to exchange them is an idiot.

Or a day trader

Re:Idiots: (1)

mythosaz (572040) | about 9 months ago | (#46652929)

Anyone keeping coins in an exchange for any longer than necessary to exchange them is an idiot.

Or a day trader

You mean, people constantly exchanging them?

Re:Idiots: (1)

mysidia (191772) | about 9 months ago | (#46655267)

Anyone keeping coins in an exchange for any longer than necessary to exchange them is an idiot.

Or a day trader

Same thing....

Re:Idiots: (1)

pantaril (1624521) | about 8 months ago | (#46659337)

Anyone keeping coins in an exchange for any longer than necessary to exchange them is an idiot.

If nobody kept their coins on the exchange it would be not very usefull because there would be nobody to exchange with.

Re:Idiots: (1)

Rich0 (548339) | about 8 months ago | (#46659575)

Anyone keeping coins in an exchange for any longer than necessary to exchange them is an idiot.

If nobody kept their coins on the exchange it would be not very usefull because there would be nobody to exchange with.

There is no need for an exchange to own the commodity it trades. When you buy/sell stock on an exchange you don't buy/sell it from the exchange itself, and you don't need to keep your money in an account owned/controlled by the exchange.

And even if it made sense to put the funds into escrow with the exchange while a bid/ask is pending, there is no reason that the money needs to stay in the exchange for any significant period of time.

Lack of foresight (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651657)

Where there is a demand there will be a supply. If not by Chinese bodies then by bodies outside of China's control that supply to the same Chinese people.

I wonder if China will now declare war on bitcoin the same way the US declared was on drugs...the reason I say this is because I;d love for that to happen. The "war on drugs" only made them more readily available.

As they should... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651661)

I agree with the Chinese stance for a number of reasons. Among them, all currency should be traceable so that governments can, if necessary, know who is buying what, where and when. Also, mining BitCoin for any significant profit is for the already relatively wealthy as mining rig costs are beyond the means of the people that need money the most. The rich keep getting richer while the poor continue to suffer.

Re:As they should... (5, Informative)

michelcolman (1208008) | about 9 months ago | (#46651741)

Bitcoin is more traceable than cash. The bitcoin chain contains a record of every bitcoin transaction ever made, anywhere. There are some randomizing anonymizer services which take money from lots of people and return it randomly so nobody knows exactly which amount came from which source, but that kind of services exists for other currencies as well.

Re:As they should... (3, Funny)

Lost Race (681080) | about 9 months ago | (#46651903)

There are some randomizing anonymizer services which take money from lots of people and return it randomly so nobody knows exactly which amount came from which source....

So... sort of a money laundromat?

Re:As they should... (1)

QuasiSteve (2042606) | about 9 months ago | (#46651957)

Sort of a casino
( but without all the entertainment perks and less of the gambling )

Re:As they should... (1)

Comrade Ogilvy (1719488) | about 9 months ago | (#46654509)

At least the Chinese gov't does not have to worry about its people liking to gamble....

Re:As they should... (1)

PRMan (959735) | about 9 months ago | (#46651931)

But you can never tell me the identity of a miner. (Well, the NSA probably could.)

Re:As they should... (2)

Lumpy (12016) | about 9 months ago | (#46652065)

Dont have to, because the miner will die of old age before they get any significant bitcoin amounts now.

Maybe 3 years ago you could mine and make money, not anymore.

Re:As they should... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46652323)

So mt. Gox and those other "exchanges" will be refunding the money shortly?

Re:As they should... (1)

michelcolman (1208008) | about 8 months ago | (#46662049)

I would venture that the bitcoins will be easier to trace and find than the dollars/yens/whatevers. They may be in some unidentifiable wallet, but as soon as someone uses them to buy something, those bitcoins can be traced back to the illegal transactions. They may have used all kinds of trickery to disguise the transfers, but that's actually harder to do with bitcoins than with cash.

Re:As they should... (1)

mlts (1038732) | about 9 months ago | (#46653331)

BitCoins are tracable forever. Those block chains never disappear. However, if one possesses a bunch of tainted coins in a wallet, and hands the wallet to someone else, in exchange for some other commodity, that can effectively hide where the coins came from.

Re:As they should... (1)

michelcolman (1208008) | about 8 months ago | (#46662187)

And then that person gets arrested and tells the police where he got the coins from.

Re:As they should... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46653825)

Bitcoin is more traceable than cash.

on the other hand, cash in the form of serialized paper/linen/polymer bills are extremely traceable. the 'paper' currency in your pocket, withdrawn from a bank, only goes a few transactions until it returns to a bank. these serial numbers make it child's play for the US Secret Service to trace counterfeit money to its source.
 
  cash is anything but untraceable.

Re:As they should... (1)

michelcolman (1208008) | about 8 months ago | (#46662151)

Yes, you might make a list of all bills, where they were last spent, and try to make a pattern out of that to find the bad guy. Indeed, this technique often succeeds. But compare that to "bills" that have a record on them of every transaction ever made with them. Wouldn't you agree that that is more traceable? I never said cash is completely untraceable, I'm just saying it's wrong to say that bitcoin is untraceable when in fact it is much easier to trace than cash. I'm sure the NSA absolutely loves bitcoin.

I can't be saddened by this at all (1)

swschrad (312009) | about 9 months ago | (#46651673)

the BiteCon folks wanted to be rebels. let 'em.

Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651679)

no matter what the news, lots of people on /r/bitcoin and /r/bitcoinmarkets are bullish.

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (2)

SleazyRidr (1563649) | about 9 months ago | (#46651807)

But they were also bullish when it was $900. Maybe it'll get back up there, maybe it'll die. Who knows?

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (1)

PRMan (959735) | about 9 months ago | (#46651949)

Yep. Because a secure worldwide ledger that can send large amounts of money anywhere in the world for free can be the basis of many a killer app. And once that killer app hits, the price will rocket through the stratosphere. Or it could never come, and then I will lose what I can afford to.

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (1)

jeremyp (130771) | about 9 months ago | (#46652035)

Bitcoin transactions will not be free in the long term. Once all the bit coins are mined, the people verifying the transactions will have to charge a fee unless they are using a bot net.

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (1)

mysidia (191772) | about 9 months ago | (#46656483)

Once all the bit coins are mined, the people verifying the transactions will have to charge a fee unless they are using a bot net.

A number of pools are already requiring fees to include transactions, OR including only a limited number of free transactions.

The thing is... if there's no fee... then there's no incentive for a miner to include the transaction. There is no minimum number of transactions for a miner to include ----- a block with no transactions is valid -- if a miner wants, and they can find a block with no transactions in it --- then the miner can claim the reward.

So expect fees to be mandatory sooner than you think.

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46652195)

It won't ever come. The secure worldwide ledger is the problem, not a feature. Transfers can take over an hour, instead of the seconds that a traditional transfer takes. Bitcoin's value is in underground transactions where an actual currency and real banks can't be used. For everything else a real national currency is better.

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46652295)

Wait what... since when could I transfer money internationally in seconds?

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (1)

viperidaenz (2515578) | about 9 months ago | (#46652997)

Credit card.

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (1)

Time_Ngler (564671) | about 8 months ago | (#46658615)

From Nigeria?

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (1)

Comrade Ogilvy (1719488) | about 9 months ago | (#46654711)

There will be transaction fees. Because of what jeremyp said. Also, it is only a minscule slice of the people on this planet who can dare touch more than pocket change worth of bitcoin, without the benefits of some kind of insurance. Exchanges will step in and be part of that solution, eventually, once they are stable and respected enough to be backed by real money. So that "large amounts of money anywhere in the world for free" is never going to happen, in any important sense.

Bitcoin and similar have a shot at competing with credit cards. The real question is how much lower the fees be than 3%, once all kinds of overhead are factored in. Thinking in terms of zero costs is just a fantasy. Luckily for the bitcoin aficionados, the bar for success if not nearly so high. They do not have to achieve zero fees in order to be a big success.

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (1)

MozeeToby (1163751) | about 9 months ago | (#46653357)

To be fair, $450 per coin is about... $449.50 more than I ever thought they would be. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the hype dies down and the speculation starts to dry up. Until then I'll watch from the sidelines, happy enough even if I could have bought in when it was pennies per coin.

Re:Meanwhile, BTC is down to around US$450, yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46657331)

There is just too much value put into the currency by the Chinese for it to go down much. In fact, it only will go up as criminal organizations make new CryptoLocker versions and people have to pay the bad guys in BitCoin.

bitcoin good (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651689)

bitcoin must be good if the chineese govt is trying to stop it?

The Sky is falling! (2)

bobbied (2522392) | about 9 months ago | (#46651701)

So the 2nd largest economy is taking steps to ban BitCoin? Really...

Can the end be too far away?

Get back in there at once and sell, sell!!

Re:The Sky is falling! (2)

michelcolman (1208008) | about 9 months ago | (#46651749)

Let me guess... you're buying?

Re:The Sky is falling! (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 9 months ago | (#46651819)

LOL

Trying to quote from a really OLD Eddy Murphy movie..

Cornering the market on a $1 bet...

Re:The Sky is falling! (2, Interesting)

Jeff Flanagan (2981883) | about 9 months ago | (#46652045)

Or he just accurately noticed that the commodity has lost value on the exchanges, has no intrinsic value, and may crash completely. Bitcoincharts is down at the moment, but according to other sites, the value has fallen all the way to $455 per btc, which if I recall correctly was at about $550 per btc last Friday. It wasn't that long ago that it was at $1000 per btc.

Re:The Sky is falling! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46657841)

I believe the 455$ price is in response to the IRS decision to tax bitcoins as properties and not to China shutting down two bitcoin exchangs.

Re:The Sky is falling! (1)

michelcolman (1208008) | about 8 months ago | (#46662113)

Look at the longer term chart, and look at how similar the current drop is to the drop that occurred about a year ago. Make sure you take a logarithmic chart to see the similarity. It went from $250 down to less than $50, up and down again a few times, then up to $1000 several months later. If you bought at the peak exactly one year ago, you would still have a very nice profit today.

So what if it went from $1000 back to $400? Given the history of the prices, that's peanuts. Last year was much worse.

Nice FUD! Regurgitating "maybe" crap from coindsk? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651791)

Nice FUD! Thank you for regurgitating "maybe" crap from coindsk!

Do Bitcoiners get it yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651841)

World governments are not going to allow you to replace their fiat currency. Period. It is only a matter of time. Right now Bitcoin is a minor annoyance to US banksters, but rest assured, the moment they are convinced that bitcoin is causing a significant drop in their profits, US Regulators will come down on Bitcoin far worse than China ever could.

Re:Do Bitcoiners get it yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46651901)

You assume that Bitcoin matters enough to cause any drop in profits. It doesn't and it won't.

Sink or swim moment (4, Interesting)

Lost Race (681080) | about 9 months ago | (#46651981)

Well, this is it -- an early test of whether Bitcoin can stand on its own as an underground currency. The crutch of traditional currency exchange has been kicked out from under it. Will the bitcoins currently in China be abandoned? smuggled out? or actually used as money like Satoshi intended?

Re:Sink or swim moment (2, Interesting)

Jeff Flanagan (2981883) | about 9 months ago | (#46652125)

They'll be sold on LocalBitcoins.com. Most of the sellers accepting Western Union are either in China or Vietnam. I don't think the Chinese government can stop its citizens from receiving WU transfers without raising all kinds of hell.

Re:Sink or swim moment (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46656983)

They'll be sold on LocalBitcoins.com. Most of the sellers accepting Western Union are either in China or Vietnam. I don't think the Chinese government can stop its citizens from receiving WU transfers without raising all kinds of hell.

You are really naive if you thought that.

The Chinese government CAN and WILL do ANYTHING to stay in power, and if they think Bitcoin will undermine their power, stopping their citizens from receiving WU transfers would be done in a blink of an eye.

As the recent sanctions of Visa and Mastercard payments to Russia had shown, relying on payment systems that is controllable by the US government is BAD for national security. If the Chinese Govt think that WU has became important to China, it will work to undermine it and replace it with one that under its own control.

Re:Sink or swim moment (1)

conscarcdr (1429747) | about 9 months ago | (#46652561)

Bitcoins can be "in China" and need to be "smuggled out"?

Re:Sink or swim moment (1)

HeckRuler (1369601) | about 9 months ago | (#46653141)

Yes, they can be owned by people in China. People who solely have access to said bitcoins. The Bitcoins can be considered "in China".

And yes, they need to be smuggled out. If China decrees that anyone trading Bitcoins for money is a criminal, then you can't simply exchange your bitcoins for Renminbi. If China comes down really hard, ASKING for someone to trade money for Bitcoins could be illegal. This would, presumably, convince normal people to simply no longer deal with Bitcoins.

Maybe. Just maybe, someone outside of China would want those Bitcoins because we don't live in such a tyrannical state (yet). But since trading them is illegal, they have to be smuggled. ie, exchanged to someone outside of China hopefully without the authorities noticing/caring, because doing so is illegal.

Re:Sink or swim moment (1)

Jim Sadler (3430529) | about 9 months ago | (#46655413)

Perhaps Bitcoin has more power than China. Sometimes a new idea or item has enormous muscle.

No problem... (1)

hydrofix (1253498) | about 9 months ago | (#46652203)

The CEO of Bitcoin [coindesk.com] has already decided to ban China as a countermeasure. So who's the fool now?

Different possible reason (1)

Zontar_Thing_From_Ve (949321) | about 9 months ago | (#46652329)

I see a different possible reason for this than "bad totalitarian government gets scared of loss of control", but my sample size is small so I may be very wrong here. I know some Chinese citizens and they are unusually interested in the stock market and money making schemes. They don't really understand even a little bit how the stock market works, yet they remain convinced that it's easy to invest a pittance and come out rich. It may be simply that the government is tired of dealing with citizens who don't have even the faintest understanding of how markets work and they don't want to see a bunch of dummies investing their life savings into bitcoin and maybe going bust because I guarantee you that if that happens, the same people who lost their money would demand that the government make them whole.

Unsubtle how? (4, Interesting)

St.Creed (853824) | about 9 months ago | (#46652511)

If the Chinese government had been unsubtle, the police would have arrested the owners and they'd be doing hard labour in a punishment camp in Tibet right now. Telling banks to stop doing business with them is a very very moderate slap on the wrist for people who've been slightly naughty.

Re:Unsubtle how? (1)

troll -1 (956834) | about 9 months ago | (#46655063)

This is an affront to freedom my friend. Banning technology is bad for everyone. They are basically saying a P2P computer program cannot be run because wise people have determined it's bad. Reminds me of a Kafka novel.

Re:Unsubtle how? (1)

St.Creed (853824) | about 8 months ago | (#46664643)

I agree with you and I'm not at all saying they were treated well. But if the Chinese government wanted to be unsubtle, they'd be beaten up and jailed without further discussion. Apart from that: the cases at Mt. Gox and the other thieves... sorry, money changers, show that regulation is going to be needed pronto. The Chinese version of regulation, however, is to ban it.

YOU FAIL 6IT (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46654553)

are thereK? Let's

Bitcoin is the Segway of money (3, Interesting)

Animats (122034) | about 9 months ago | (#46655469)

Bitcoin is about as important as the Segway. Bitcoin works, and it does what it's supposed to do - allow one-way irrevocable value transfers between anonymous parties. That's a poor basis for practical commerce, although a boon to a broad range of crooks. It's especially bad that over half of Bitcoin exchanges have gone bust, despite the fact that they shouldn't be at financial risk.

It looks like Bitcoin will be around for a while, but it's not growing. The block chain transaction rate now is about what it was a year ago. Like the Segway, Bitcoin is kind of cool, and has niche applications, but it's not changing the world.

Except... Refunds have been added to the protocol (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46656755)

And us fiat being exchanged on the sidewalk is any different than irrevocable transfers between anonymous parties?

Yes, the us fiat system (and most govt fiat systems in general) are very poor for practical commerce, although a boon to a broad range of crooks. Those crooks include the fed who can steal your dollars through arbitrarily adding more (Possible with bitcoin but not necessary) to the supply, counterfeiting (which won't be possible for quite some time with bitcoin) and "Oh MY Goodness!" outright scams. Are you serious? LOL

You want to trust your resources with non-professionals? Doesn't matter what currency you're using, bub.

BitCoin is definitely changing and gaining adoption daily. It's ok though, plenty of people have missed out already... even more will miss out on most of the rest.

Re:Except... Refunds have been added to the protoc (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46657163)

Swapping fiat on the street or directly to someone for something is fine, that is about the safest time to use it. Would you mail fiat cash to someone out of your area on Ebay or Craigslist for payment for something? Why not? Would you do it with Bitcoins? Why not? Because you have no idea if they are a crook or not and if you will ever receive your goods and your currency is GONE.

Is that really that hard for you to understand bub?

Re:Bitcoin is the Segway of money (1)

Tubepunk (3568899) | about 8 months ago | (#46659177)

More like the Google Glass of money. Opinions about Segway have never been as polarized as opinions about Bitcoin.

Re:Bitcoin is the Segway of money (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46662323)

Because when you launder money, everyone needs to segue from one vehicle to another. So yeah, Bitcoin is a financial "Segway". Hah!

The ideal payment system I want (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46657019)

I want a payment method that is:

- Accepted by a majority of businesses.
- Is reliable and trustworthy and been around for a long time, not a few months in some foreign country, has a phone number/email that I can reach them at and talk to a person.
- Gives me zero liability protection in case fraud, allows me to dispute transactions.
- Rewards me with something in proportion to how much I use it
- Does not require a smart phone or a computer to be handy or with me at all times when I want to use it
- I can use at locally at POS, over the phone, or on the internet
- Give me additional loss, theft, and warranty protection on the everything I buy with it.
- Costs me nothing to obtain it and use it, initially, monthly, or yearly.
- Provides ability to look at old transactions or print out receipts for business or business expense purposes.

Wouldn't something like that be great?

Oh wait, I already have that, an American Express card. Zero fees (no annual fee and I do not maintain a revolving balance so zero interest), In fact, I got $850 check in the mail last year for using it so much.

When bitcoin or anything else even comes anywhere close to that, maybe I'll switch.

This article is incorrect. (1)

SinisterEVIL (2661381) | about 8 months ago | (#46662427)

The bank has issued no decision and will not make a decision until April 15th. Although it is highly speculated that the outcome will remain true, it is still.....speculation.
Check for New Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?