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Linus Torvalds Suspends Key Linux Developer

Soulskill posted about 4 months ago | from the arguing-about-penguins dept.

Open Source 641

alphadogg writes: "An argument between developers of some of the most basic parts of Linux turned heated this week, resulting in a prominent Red Hat employee and code contributor being banned from working on the Linux kernel. Kay Sievers, a well-known open-source software engineer, is a key developer of systemd, a system management framework for Linux-based operating systems. Systemd is currently used by several prominent Linux distributions, including two of the most prominent enterprise distros, Red Hat and SUSE. It was recently announced that Ubuntu would adopt systemd in future versions as well. Sievers was banned by kernel maintainer Linus Torvalds on Wednesday for failing to address an issue that caused systemd to interact with the Linux kernel in negative ways."

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First Post (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661287)

YEAHHHHHHH

It's Kay's fault I didn't get First Post (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661383)

I would have gotten first post if I wasn't running both the base kernel’s debugging routine and that of systemd.

Re:It's Kay's fault I didn't get First Post (3, Informative)

NeverVotedBush (1041088) | about 4 months ago | (#46662897)

Whoever marked this as off topic didn't read the source material. This comment was really quite funny!

Re:First Post (5, Informative)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46661461)

From the previous message in the thread, to which Linus was reacting:


It has come to our attention that a system running a specific user
space init program will not boot if you add "debug" to the kernel
command line. What happens is that the user space tool parses the
kernel command line, and if it sees "debug" it will spit out so much
information that the system fails to boot. This basically renders the
"debug" option for the kernel useless.

This bug has been reported to the developers of said tool
here:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/s... [freedesktop.org]

The response is:

"Generic terms are generic, not the first user owns them."

That is, the "debug" statement on the *kernel* command line is not
owned by the kernel just because it was the first user of it, and
they refuse to fix their bug.

I don't care if Kay wrote "Jesus 2.0". He broke kernel debugging for all development and responded to this with arrogant platitudes based on architecture principle, rather than join with cooperative interest to seek a solution.

Linus was restrained, in response to such a "community contributor". This is the Linux kernel, not Oxford dons, vying for college chairs.

Re:First Post (5, Informative)

NFN_NLN (633283) | about 4 months ago | (#46661507)

Here is the actual bug and arguement: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/s... [freedesktop.org]

Re:First Post (1)

Isaac Remuant (1891806) | about 4 months ago | (#46661941)

Thanks. That should be in the summary.

Re:First Post (4, Funny)

marcosdumay (620877) | about 4 months ago | (#46662395)

One thing you can't say about him - that he's slow to act on bugs...

2014-04-02 08:57 UTC - reported
2014-04-02 10:19 UTC - bug closed with a not a bug resolution

Off to Cupertino for him then (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663199)

(Confused by beta's layout)

Re:First Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663485)

It's even funnier if you look at the history (reformatted for /. )

10:19 UTC - closed, 'not a bug' (kay)
10:39 UTC - reopened (bp)
12:06 UTC - closed, 'not a bug' (kay)
13:18 UTC - reopened (bp)
14:08 UTC - closed, 'not a bug' (kay)
14:09 UTC - reopened (jirislaby)
14:10 UTC - closed, 'not a bug' (kay)
14:11 UTC - reopened (jirislaby)
14:12 UTC - closed, 'not a bug' (kay)
14:40 UTC - reopened (bp)
'rabbit season'
'duck season' ...

Re:First Post (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661805)

For those of us lacking in perspective on how Fun! kernel debugging is, here is a voice from the MS side of things. Dangerous curveballs ahead.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thenightwatch.pdf

Re:First Post (4, Funny)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46661927)

For those of us lacking in perspective on how Fun! kernel debugging is, here is a voice from the MS side of things. Dangerous curveballs ahead.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thenightwatch.pdf [microsoft.com]

OK. That was GREAT!

Re:First Post (5, Informative)

lgw (121541) | about 4 months ago | (#46662593)

I used to work with a guy who was a MS kernel hacker. He knew the debugger setup in all it's arcanity backwards and forwards, and had a lot of code knowledge there too, despite never working at MS. It was great fun to watch IT try to manage his machine through normal tools (to push updates and reboots and whatnot). He was having none of that, but he wasn't going to pick a fight with IT, instead he just ensured that the IT client tools were kept happy, that the kernel always told them what they needed to hear.

Never pick a geek-fight on a machine that your opponent has a kernel debugger attached to. Ahh, old-school hacking. How I miss the art.

Pure awesomeness (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662997)

A good Friday laugh at least

Re: Re:First Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46742655)

thank you for the link, this is hilarious.

Re:First Post (1, Flamebait)

phantomfive (622387) | about 4 months ago | (#46661987)

Linus was restrained, in response to such a "community contributor". This is the Linux kernel, not Oxford dons, vying for college chairs.

The kernel has changed from the early days, when every contributor was an enthusiast, interested in making the kernel better. Now a lot of the kernel developers (like this guy) are employed by companies, and write code because their company tells them to, which is a completely different motivation.

It's a much different managerial task, and it must be frustrating for Linus to deal with people who don't actually care.

Re:First Post (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46718965)

I'm pretty sure at no point did RedHat tell him to ignore a bug his software caused in the kernel.

Re:First Post (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about 4 months ago | (#46721245)

Way to miss the point

Re:First Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663655)

I wish systemd would have gotten a kick when they proclaimed that you can't have a seperate /usr partition.

Re:First Post (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46679933)

I wish systemd would have gotten a kick when they proclaimed that you can't have a seperate /usr partition.

Is that true? systemd requires /usr in / ? I used to part all to hell, across spindles - when that was a significant performance issue.

It also made versioning backups of some trees really simple, with cpio, etc.

Re:First Post (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46718967)

I keep usr in root, but my subdirs of var are broken up all over the place.

Re:First Post (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46719141)

Heavy write. Goes somewhere different. Good idea.

Dear Red Hat... (1)

emil (695) | about 4 months ago | (#46664919)

...How about you crank out one of those custom patches to add a "systemd-" prefix to all of the systemd-specific kernel parameters, then bundle it into the SRPM?

Warmest regards... an Oracle Linux user.

Re:First Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665125)

I've got a fix for the Linux kernel that will fix this problem and any future issue.
+ if (!strcmp(p->p_name, "systemd")) killproc(p, "fuck you");
Pull request.

systemd (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661289)

see title

informal poll (-1, Offtopic)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46661311)

who runs Linux these days?

for your **personal computer** not work terminal or music server

i'm not talking all FOSS and this doesn't include Android...I'm asking specifically about the Linux OS

also, please specify if you can dual boot w/ multiple OS's

Re:informal poll (0)

tthomas48 (180798) | about 4 months ago | (#46661359)

Me. Work and home. Ubuntu Gnome Trusty Tahr - I don't dual-boot. My wife runs Windows 8.1 and I have an OSX machine for development. I don't get why anyone runs Windows. I sort of get OSX, but I prefer Gnome.

Re:informal poll (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661557)

I don't get why anyone runs Windows.

Because it works just fine and it is what most people are familiar with? Plus out-of-the-box support for things like games and a wide array of mainstream consumer software.

I don't really get why anyone can be puzzled as to how Windows is a popular OS.

Re:informal poll (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661705)

XP is shutting down on April 8 guess what people will be switching to.

Re:informal poll (4, Insightful)

NatasRevol (731260) | about 4 months ago | (#46661789)

A pirated copy of Win7.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662153)

Windows(tm) 8.1 Powered by Bing(tm).

Might as well get your spyware directly from the vendor.

Re:informal poll (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 4 months ago | (#46662311)

By the way I recently discovered that Daz's Windows Loader does not support GPT partitioning scheme. Just something to keep in mind if you plan on doing a pirated Win7 install to yourself or your relatives: don't do an UEFI install if you want to use Daz's.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661885)

XP.

Re:informal poll (1)

Chas (5144) | about 4 months ago | (#46662385)

XP.

Careful. Your face might freeze that way...

Re:informal poll (1)

rs79 (71822) | about 4 months ago | (#46661903)

No, they won't.

When there is a reason to, they will.

Note that WordStar and CP/M are still in use to this day.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661925)

Probably Windows 7 or Windows 8 and a few people may migrate to OS X. It sure as fuck won't be Linux.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662199)

XP is shutting down on April 8

Wrong in one. XP will continue working, but will no longer receive security updates. People will continue to use XP until their systems die (from hardware or software failure; software failure likely being virus related).

Re:informal poll (2)

MachineShedFred (621896) | about 4 months ago | (#46662235)

The same install of XP, minus the annoying constant stream of patches?

Unless you're talking about large business, then they'll be (and are) switching to Win7.

Re:informal poll (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 4 months ago | (#46666707)

Unless you're talking about large business, then they'll be (and are) switching to Win7.

True, still switching. While you may think it insane that some application vendors are still taking their time porting to Win7 also consider that some still insist on using evil parallel port "security" dongles before you can run their stuff.

Re:informal poll (1)

MachineShedFred (621896) | about 4 months ago | (#46675117)

Oh, I know. My team started the work of figuring out how to do Win7 migration two years ago, and started migrating systems 6 months ago. We had to sit down and figure out a completely automated way to do the migration, retaining existing user data. We had a process where every application was reviewed and repackaged specifically for Windows 7, including user acceptance testing. If it didn't work, then replacements were found or we virtualized it.

All our offices are complete now, but we're about 20% done with line-of-business systems, and we're doing over 300/night through automation. We're gonna be done sometime in June - but I hear of other VERY large companies that are taking the "Oh, Microsoft will go back on that April 8 date" approach, and I think they're going to be very unhappy on Tuesday.

There might even be some job openings.

Re:informal poll (1)

ArhcAngel (247594) | about 4 months ago | (#46663205)

Android [xda-developers.com]

Re:informal poll (1)

The123king (2395060) | about 4 months ago | (#46663387)

Windows 8.x when it gets it's start menu back

Re:informal poll (4, Interesting)

amiga3D (567632) | about 4 months ago | (#46661913)

Exactly. I would probably be using it too if I had come to computers late. Back in the 80's when I wanted to upgrade from my Commodore 128 I looked at the PC clones and compared them to the Commodore Amiga and it was no question at all for me. The clones were a fucking joke. Once Mehdi Ali and Irving Gould decided to bankrupt Commodore and then Win 95 came out the only other active system was Apple which was a joke at that time. Everyone was buying Win 95 like it was going out of style. Later when I wanted new hardware I looked at Windows and went "ugh!" and then read about Linux. I bought a dual pentium II server and installed Linux on it in '99 and never looked back. I've never actually used windows much outside of work but I can see why people that never used anything else use it. You can buy anything at all for it. If it's all you ever used you wouldn't know that it sucks.

Re:informal poll (1)

invictusvoyd (3546069) | about 4 months ago | (#46666759)

AFAIK windows is inherently crappy piece of software .convenience is one thing but you can't just sacrifice ur geek mojo for that.
The only reason I ever touched windows in the past 10 years or so is for gaming ..Now I have gotten a few games to run over wine . I really dont know why a geek would use windows .. Or even osx ..

Re:informal poll (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 4 months ago | (#46677157)

AFAIK

Thats your first and foremost mistake. The rest of your post just goes down hill from there.

If you don't understand why someone might run Windows or OS X, the ignorance and stupidity is yours and no one else's.

Re:informal poll (1)

invictusvoyd (3546069) | about 4 months ago | (#46691433)

I gave up on stupidity 10 years ago . Never used ignorance .. thanks

Re:informal poll (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719065)

The first twenty times you reboot it or have to research how to get rid of a toolbar that won't uninstall that has taken over your desktop, I'm pretty sure you should be wondering "isn't there something better than this?"

The primary reason random people use Windows is because they don't realize they have choices.

Re:informal poll (2, Insightful)

Spiked_Three (626260) | about 4 months ago | (#46661665)

People run windows, because, ummm, maybe it has software that is usable?

Adobe apps for instance. Yes, I could run them on an overpriced mac, that is an option, if I do not mind being locked into the most obviously nefarious corporate slime in existence.

The fact that you don't understand this, means you probably are very limited in your understanding of how people use computers in general. That takes nothing away from your technical skills. Just wouldnt put you in charge of I.T. at a company bigger than say, 2.

Look, windows is still at over 80% market share. You are flat out ignoring reality when you say you dont get why anyone runs windows. It does not make you look smart, I'm sure that was what you were trying to accomplish.

Re:informal poll (4, Insightful)

jovius (974690) | about 4 months ago | (#46662227)

I currently run software on Linux, Windows and OS X simultaneously on a single machine. It's true: the issue is not about the best OS but choosing the best tools regardless. The whole question of which OS is the best is so 90s. There really are no borders these days.

OS "singularity" (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46666351)

the issue is not about the best OS but choosing the best tools regardless. The whole question of which OS is the best is so 90s. There really are no borders these days.

this is what I was wondering about when I wrote the poll

I agree that this **could** be true...but reading through the responses it seems we aren't quite at the "singularity" point for OS's

Maybe people are taking your "best tool" approach & just b/c of the type of stuff /.'ers use it tends towards Linux

graphic designers still need Mac...it's just all there for you (i do some graphic design)

IMHO Windows is going away...they already give it away free...

When non-Mac PC makers get sick of M$ it's over

Re:informal poll (1)

Princeofcups (150855) | about 4 months ago | (#46662595)

Yes, I could run them on an overpriced mac, that is an option, if I do not mind being locked into the most obviously nefarious corporate slime in existence.

This kind of flame bait would preclude me from modding a post insightful for informative, even if the rest of the post is fine. Just saying.

Re:informal poll (1)

Redmancometh (2676319) | about 4 months ago | (#46664127)

I mean it's definitely inflammatory, but can you really deny it?

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46664953)

Yes...Macs aren't overpriced when you consider that the difference in retail prices is basically the same or even less than the difference in resale price. In short, if you buy a new computer every two years and sell your old one, buying a Mac is usually cheaper.

Re:informal poll (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46666373)

Anyone can deny it...the GP's language and content were flame for sure...

Mac's work great overall. The price is usually worth it if you ask people who actually paid full price.

What we need is to be able to acknowledge that there is a difference between "good" for what a /. poster uses an OS for and "good" for what others need.

Many tech-minded people aren't coders...they understand Linux & why its important but just want it to work out of the box

Re:informal poll (4, Insightful)

VortexCortex (1117377) | about 4 months ago | (#46662657)

People run windows, because, ummm, maybe it has software that is usable?

Ah! So you're saying that its applications that people use computers for, not OSs! I agree. You now must realize that it costs nothing extra to the developers to select a cross platform development toolchain instead of a platform specific one which may tie them to OSs that have uncertain futures. AND if they go "cross platform or bust" then they get free money via increased market share.

Unfortunately if their codebase started out with a vendor-lock-in solution then their products will be hard to "port". However, it takes me only a single "git pull && make" to port my changes from my application's GNU/Linux development environment to GNU/BSD, GNU/Mac or GNU/Windows, and indeed with my cross complier toolchain that single command builds all targets. The uniform userspace reduces changes required of my build system and code. LLVM is another option, but I've had this build setup prior to even mingw, and see no real benefit to change as my C/C++ platform abstraction layer allows me to deploy as even JAVA bytecode with GCC. In my continuous build-test-deploy setups recompiles are done periodically as I push changes to the server and any build errors appear on a webpage in my issue tracker detecting regressions across all platforms without me doing anything extra than a single "git push".

So, really, it is not Windows that keeps people on Windows, it is application developers who haven't yet been sufficiently pressured by their publishers into increasing their install base.

means you probably are very limited in your understanding of how people use computers in general.

Most people use the OS that's installed for them for the lifetime of the hardware, and use the applications available for it. Most people select the hardware with the OS that supports the applications they want to run. When XP came out I was selling PCs and the #1 question asked was "Can I install $APPLICATION on it?", this is still the prime question in the mind of the consumer: What apps can it run?

MS is shooting themselves in the foot with the whole Metro App Store thing. That's another vendor lock-in strategy. I've seen plenty of devs now reconsidering their codebase and dev platform and asking, "Well, I don't want to lose W7 installbase, and if I'm going to put in an abstraction layer for W7 and Win8 UI Style API, then I might as well spend a little more effort to go full cross platform, reach for additional market share, and no longer be tied to W8."

Not saying your comment is wrong, I'm just saying it won't be right for very much longer. It's 2014, the OS is irrelevant. It's merely a means for the platform abstraction layer to talk to the underlying hardware. Hell, my meta-language compiler has even made most languages irrelevant to me, they are just interfaces to the OS for re-implementation of the platform abstraction layer's "runtime". In 18 months I will have my entire codebase cross compiling against Android and even iOS.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665189)

Please don't lecture everyone with the "git pull && make" to port my changes simplicity and excuse that gnu is better.

Last time I tried that with gcc 4.8.2 and avr and even qt4 and got a broken toolchain. And don't say it's because I'm doing it wrong--cause a design is worthless with training and explanation, which is usually buried in a wiki post or bbs.

Debugging requires core and low level design considerations. 9 out of 10 times it's never going to be right the 1st time out. If anyone should get blame it's who allowed it to be pushed without sufficient testing....

Re:informal poll (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about 4 months ago | (#46665869)

Not saying your comment is wrong, I'm just saying it won't be right for very much longer. It's 2014, the OS is irrelevant.

And this is becoming more and more true, as things keep moving to the 'cloud.'

problem identified...solution lies with us (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46666445)

it is application developers who haven't yet been sufficiently *pressured by their publishers* into increasing their install base

I agree. Here's where we can actually improve the situation right now.

so it's the "publisher" who is the node in the system with the authorization to make the changes

that's who we must convince...it should be easy b/c as you say,

AND if they go "cross platform or bust" then they get free money via increased market share.

so we, all of us on /., we who actually *do the work* need to speak with ONE VOICE, unanimously, that "cross platform is the only way to go"

we need to delete the concept of OS-locked software from our entire behavioral lexicon

when "publishers" want something done **they have to ask us**

we need to stop fanboi/trolling forever on OS's in public...we need to create a situation where **any time** some non-tech administrator tries to even **mention** going "windows only" that it's "impossible" and "foolish"

we need to say that...loudly, consistentely, and **without** being a fanboi of a certain OS because it shows we're 733t h@xxx0rz...that just muddies the waters and lets them ignore our advice b/c it's too complex for them to understand

when a Windows sales rep calls a "publisher" to try to convince them to make their new software "windows only" we need to create a context where the 'publisher' responds,

"Oh no way. We are all cross-platform in this shop my engineers wouldn't work on something not cross-platform"

Re:informal poll (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 4 months ago | (#46666721)

So, really, it is not Windows that keeps people on Windows, it is application developers who haven't yet been sufficiently pressured by their publishers into increasing their install base.

Some application developers I've met don't yet know how to deal with 64bit and multiple cores, so yes, they are stuck in 1995 :(

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668465)

You almost got there, but still managed to miss the central problem with your point of view despite coming within a hair's width of realization:

Hell, my meta-language compiler has even made most languages irrelevant to me, they are just interfaces to the OS for re-implementation of the platform abstraction layer's "runtime". In 18 months I will have my entire codebase cross compiling against Android and even iOS.

In 18 months, you'll have your code base cross compiling with your "meta-language compiler". But you won't have produced anything else. After investing these 18 months, you won't have any new shippable software or anything to actually sell. Just a fancy-pants toolchain that nobody - customer, investor, or potential client - actually gives two hoots about.

Yes, your existing software will run on new platforms, but it's not as if there are thousands of customers waiting for the opportunity to pay for it on those platforms, since presumably you have competitors who are already established there. Therefore the most likely benefactor of your cross-compilation will not be your existing codebase!

Look, I love the passion you obviously have. I love the idea of cross-platform everything. The one thing which holds most of these initiatives back is the lack of business sense that accompanies them. Yes, business sense is important in software development, if you ever actually want to ship anything that someone will pay for.

Too many in the open source community write off anything to do with business - with abundant use of "MBA" as a pejorative - and then wonder why they aren't taken seriously at the negotiating table, or why big software publishers don't want to pony up the investment for moving off of Windows. These things cost money. The answer is not to point at them and tell them they are wrong and stupid - regardless of whether that's true or not, nobody appreciates that. The answer is to build a case they are compelled to accept for business reasons. If you can't do that - if you can't build a solid case as to why your way is the right way, using reason and logic rather than invective and politics - then they are completely correct to reject your ideas.

18 months dude. That's almost 2 years, a damned long time in software. That's an enormous opportunity cost to pay for a toolchain. You could have built plenty of other things in that time. I just hope for your sake that the big software houses aren't already doing something similar to you. If Microsoft or Google comes out with an easy to use cross-compiling toolchain in 18 months you will have completely wasted your time.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46669677)

AND if they go "cross platform or bust" then they get free money via increased market share.

Disregarding support costs, which can easily eat up any profit to be had. A customer's Windows or Apple platform is pretty much a known quantity to a support person that doesn't vary as far as where configuration information can be found. Linux, not so much. Which distro are you using? Which version? What packages do you have installed? Are you running on a custom kernel? Did you install an interfering application via apt-get or did you build it yourself? The fact that Linux can be so easily molded to whatever the user wants is a two-edged sword that can make it a nightmare.

Re:informal poll (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 4 months ago | (#46677181)

You now must realize that it costs nothing extra to the developers to select a cross platform development toolchain instead of a platform specific one which may tie them to OSs that have uncertain futures.

I've been writing software for Windows, OSX, FreeBSD and Linux for about 10 years, one app, runs on all of them, both command line and GUI versions ... and I have to say, a statement like that just shows that you really have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about.

There is no toolchain on the planet that can make up for the difference in platforms, sorry fanboy, you don't know what you're talking about.

Re:informal poll (1)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | about 4 months ago | (#46662699)

A factor in Windows dominance is the fact most computers come with Windows and people just stay with that by default. Engaging computer manufacturers to actually look at Linux as an alternative would probably help. This brings a second factor in that Linux is often very antipathetic to binary drivers even though such drivers would likely accelerate open source driver development as it would allow for back engineering to be made easier. Such binary drivers could provide support for hardware quickly and in a timely way until open source drivers become available. I think that Linux should provide a driver compatability layer for binary drivers. This would not impact open source drivers. Open source drivers could still be built for a particular kernel version. If someone buys a USB camera they just want to be able to plug it in and for it to work, not worry about if it will run on Linux. Thirdly is a lack of applications, but this sort of is the result of lack of users, due to the previously mentioned deficiencies.

Another recent problem with Linux is the extremely poor user interface introduced by Gnome 3 and Unity which are as bad as Windows 8 and actually seem to harm the opportunity for Linux to be able to take market share from Windows by staying with the traditional taskbar, desktop, start menu model which really is best for most desktop users. Though, on Linux there are alternatives that provide the traditional model.

I think that it would be nice of someone were to fund some sort of open source project to really get Wine to better than 99% compatability with all windows applications and for a project to be started to build a driver compatability layer that would allow Windows drivers to work on Linux. I think that would really move Linux to being a real alternative to Windows to the point where computer manufacturers could actually just start installing Linux by default. Perhaps computer manufacturers ought to fund this work as well.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662907)

80% and falling (or shall we say failing?) hard.

I personally use Windows as a desktop OS, but that's only because of _legacy_ games, and because the nvidia drivers for Windows, as utter shit as they are, are still better than Nouveau when it comes to performance (but not stability).

All the good games nowadays are multiplatform or platform-independent (java/mono), the "current" edition of Windows are tablet fantasy garbage (Microsoft is backpedalling HARD on that now.. probably too little, too late at this point).

I'm running out of reasons to support it.

Also a lot of those big commercial apps are only slightly better than their F/OSS equivalents. The extra 5% you get out of Photo$hop or Office is more than offset by their hundreds (or thousands in the case of photoshit) of dollars of price difference.

Well that and Adobe's SHITWARE is always coming up as "vulnerable" in my plugin check. Completely uninstalled Adobe Reader last time, it's slow, broken, and ass anyhow. I wonder what sort of vulnerabilities photoshit is putting in your system?

If you _need_ that extra five (or maybe tops, ten) percent, well, maybe you should find another job.

Re:informal poll (1)

Spiked_Three (626260) | about 4 months ago | (#46665585)

holy shit. the fact you think OSS software is even in the same league as Adobe apps is an indicator you are totally clueless.

Re:informal poll (2)

dbIII (701233) | about 4 months ago | (#46666755)

holy shit. the fact you think OSS software is even in the same league as Adobe apps is an indicator you are totally clueless.

Correct, such people must have missed things like Dmitry Sklyarov showing that a breakfast cereal code wheel style letter substitution method was used by Adobe as "encryption". Julius Caesar famously wrote a description of that method, that's how old and well know it is.
OSS software in that league would get laughed at and not taken seriously at all.

Re:informal poll (1)

EvanED (569694) | about 4 months ago | (#46666729)

All the good games nowadays are multiplatform or platform-independent (java/mono)...

That depends what you mean by multiplatform. If you mean Windows + Linux - WINE, IMO the answer to that is "not even close." It's quite popular for Indie games to release Linux ports now, and that's great don't get me wrong. I'm also really encouraged by not just Steam on Linux but Valve's porting of several of their big-name games over. But even though I'm not a big gamer, there are still way too many omissions to move to Linux as a gaming platform.

Things open up more of course if you start including Mac & consoles in "multiplatform". But at least for me, both of those have far more significant drawbacks than Windows has.

The extra 5% you get out of Photo$hop or Office is more than offset by their hundreds (or thousands in the case of photoshit) of dollars of price difference.

That depends what you're doing of course. A while back I thought I would be creating quite a lot of PowerPoint presentations for a course I was teaching. (That turned out to not be the case both because I was spending a completely-unsustainable amount of time on each lecture and because I got a lot more comfortable with lecturing from a blackboard.) I tried out a couple different options for presentation software, and even though I have a lot of things I don't like about PowerPoint everything else sucked so much more that it was easily worth the price -- and that was true even on a grad student salary. (Keynote seems promising, but I neither have a Mac nor see myself buying one with anything close to Apple's current lineup.)

If you _need_ that extra five (or maybe tops, ten) percent, well, maybe you should find another job.

What if your job is awesome? That's a remarkably stuck up attitude: "I don't like your tools. You should change."

Re:informal poll (1)

robsku (1381635) | about 4 months ago | (#46667771)

Considering you have no problem using proprietary software, why were you using nouveau and not the official but sadly not open nVidia driver? I have since 2002, back then you could not just pull them from repository... But they've always worked for me.

Re:informal poll (1)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | about 4 months ago | (#46662999)

The fact that you don't understand this, means you probably are very limited in your understanding of how people use computers in general.

Word processing, e-mail, instant messaging (is now dead), Facebook, iTunes/spotify, Amazon.

I have always considered specialized programs as a non-common use case. PC games are not PC users; they are DIY console users. I understand that games run better on Linux--I've been there with Linux release games, I've run on dual-boot Windows/Linux and I always found that even the same game run on Linux runs much better (hit-and-miss if you're running Wine instead of i.e. native Doom 3, Quake 4, etc., but sometimes it DOES run better than Windows). But many of these things are on Windows and not on Linux, and that's why gamers use Windows.

Graphics designers. You can use a lot of graphics apps on Linux. Same with audio, video editing, and so on. If your software is Windows-only, you use Windows or you do some magic bullshit with Wine that I don't expect engineers who are not computer engineers specifically to figure out--they don't have the domain knowledge to solve abstract system administration problems.

I've always found Windows inadequate. Getting software for Windows is difficult; there is so much software just available for Linux that does what I need, like digital music collection management. Even where it's available on Windows, it's either not as good (feature-wise or has a shitty UI) or it's not as easy to install and/or keep updated (nothing is as easy as a package manager--Ubuntu Software Center is fucking amazing, it's the next iteration of package management). Doable, but irritating. And Linux just works better and provides a desktop UI for me that works and then gets the fuck out of my way; Windows provides a clunky shit heap.

People want familiarity, which is why we say people don't know what they want. They want GNOME 3 or something, but all they get is Windows 8. They've been exposed to Windows 8 so much that they can immediately use it much better than GNOME 3; but GNOME 3 is fundamentally better and, with some use, will make their daily computer use much more comfortable. That's not to say it's perfect: I fucking hate the alt-tab behavior because it is highly unintuitive and requires extra keystrokes much of the time (it's legitimately wrong, not better-but-unfamiliar), and I believe we need a next-generation hybrid floating-tiling window manager. But it's better than single-panel with start menu and tray.

It's not a "Windows is just better at this" thing. It's a familiarity thing. Linux is suited to replace a lot, but also falls short for things requiring specialized software that doesn't run on Linux. It's as suited as OSX, really: some people have arbitrarily switched because Windows was nothing special and they had no specialized needs tying them to Windows, and the vast majority of those who haven't are in that group and just have not switched because they are not interested in putting out the effort to re-learn human-computer interaction.

Re:informal poll (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 4 months ago | (#46677211)

instant messaging (is now dead)

I'm sorry what? Are you smoking some PCP or something?

Instant messaging, i.e. SMS text messaging has replaced voice for an entire generation of kids and many adults. Just because your favorite silly little IM network isn't supported doesn't mean your boxed view of the world is actually true.

Instant messaging is extremely popular even if you can't be bothered to leave the basement and have friends long enough to notice it. The only difference is the protocol used and the lack of being tied specifically to one network.

Re:informal poll (1)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | about 4 months ago | (#46684473)

Well that's a stretch we could use to define e-mail as text messaging, or Instant Messaging since it's roughly instant. Hell, we could call Twitter Instant Messaging.

Instant messaging (IM) is a type of online chat which offers real-time text transmission over the Internet.

Instant Messaging was not replaced by SMS. Can you SMS if you don't have cell phones, but have a computer? Can you send IM if you have a cell phone without a computer data plan? Of course you can do either: you use gateways that allow you to get off the computer network onto other networks, the same way you can 'read Swahili' by using Google Translate.

You know, we could also call voice "instant messaging", because I can call you and then talk, and when I speak you instantly get my message! Alexander Grahm Bell invented the first instant messaging app!

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663083)

Yes, I could run them on an overpriced mac, that is an option, if I do not mind being locked into the most obviously nefarious corporate slime in existence.

The fact that you don't understand this, means you probably are very limited in your understanding of how people use computers in general. That takes nothing away from your technical skills. Just wouldnt put you in charge of I.T. at a company bigger than say, 2.

Look, windows is still at over 80% market share. You are flat out ignoring reality when you say you dont get why anyone runs windows. It does not make you look smart, I'm sure that was what you were trying to accomplish.

Well, your whole post does a great job of making you look like a bigoted idiot that shouldn't be involved in any IT, so pot kettle and all that.

Re:informal poll (1)

The123king (2395060) | about 4 months ago | (#46663433)

Adobe apps for instance. Yes, I could run them on an overpriced mac, that is an option, if I do not mind being locked into the most obviously nefarious corporate slime in existence.

And Microsoft is sooooo much better? You know, the same Microsoft that completely broke 98% of the worlds workflow and took more than a year to say "we fucked up, we're going to fix it soon"?

oo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668415)

People run windows, because, ummm, maybe it has software that is usable?

ha ha dont make me laugh

Re:informal poll (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661675)

because the bulk of the software i use isnt available on linux. because the games i like arent available on linux. because it works pretty much out of the box for me. because my clients need me to develop software for windows and thats much easier to do in windows. because much of the peripheral hardware i use is only available for windows (or is a giant pain to get running anywhere else. and, yes, i have tried). and lastly, there is no incentive for me to move away from windows.

if linux is what you prefer or what works best for you, thats wonderful and im very happy for you. windows is what i prefer and works best for me.

oo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668439)

well there are alternatives to every programs, consoles games are being ported to PC and vice versa so it make u wonder
how many desktop users are actual true programers use full extent of programs? i would use same amount of things in photoshop like in gimp or even less so why do i need it

f else fails there is always virtualbox :)

Re:informal poll (1, Insightful)

ttucker (2884057) | about 4 months ago | (#46661701)

I used to be a die hard Linux guy, but for me OSX has always been the nothing works problem of Linux, mixed with an expensive, arrogant, asshole, flavor. Now I use Windows 7 on the desktop. It is pretty stable, and it is wonderful to have everything more or less just work.

Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

kaladorn (514293) | about 4 months ago | (#46667911)

....and something went horribly wrong....

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

ttucker (2884057) | about 4 months ago | (#46670187)

Yeah, I really hate Windows 8. Then again, all of the Linux distros did the same dickhead forced UI paradigm shift thing that made Windows 8 terrible... so they are not really claiming the moral high ground.

Pro tip: it is still quite possible to get a Windows 7 machine, particularly using the Windows 8 Pro OEM downgrade rights.

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46670503)

Then again, all of the Linux distros did the same dickhead forced UI paradigm shift thing that made Windows 8 terrible...

That's not true, not even for Ubuntu. Most if not all Linux distros give you a plethora of choices for your DE.

Use Windows if you like, but please don't assume that Linux distros are anything like what Microsoft delivers.

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46670969)

sorry, we don't take advice from admitted loons like you http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

ttucker (2884057) | about 4 months ago | (#46670975)

Then again, all of the Linux distros did the same dickhead forced UI paradigm shift thing that made Windows 8 terrible...

That's not true, not even for Ubuntu. Most if not all Linux distros give you a plethora of choices for your DE.

Use Windows if you like, but please don't assume that Linux distros are anything like what Microsoft delivers.

Choose from a plethora of either, depreciated, alpha, or poorly supported, wms. The big name wm options, namely KDE, GNOME, all went for this no taskbar shit, and dropped their old versions like rocks in a pond. At least Windows 7 is still considered production ready. If you want Linux to succeed on the desktop, don't apologize for these projects forcing a UI paradigm that people seem to not want.

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46674199)

I am running KDE 4.11.5, I have a taskbar, and you are making shit up.

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

ttucker (2884057) | about 4 months ago | (#46674495)

I must have been so disgusted with Unity and Gnome that I never bothered with KDE. Still, Fluxbox was the pinnacle of desktop WM tech, and it has been a flush down the toilet since then anyways.

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

ttucker (2884057) | about 4 months ago | (#46674507)

Openbox & fbpanel was pretty hot too.

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46675153)

"We'll always have Window Maker." :)

(No shit, I still install it on every box that I set up. Even though it doesn't come with a built-in taskbar.)

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46675455)

And YOU will always be, a "PhRooT-LooP" (lmao) http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46675471)

You set them up @ the nuthouse, "PhRooT-LooP" (lol)? http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46675693)

Can't even figure out which post to respond to, eh, genius?

Zontar posts by ac now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46683233)

Makes sense: Zontar has multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

ttucker (2884057) | about 4 months ago | (#46678355)

I would take Window Maker over Unity any day, even if I had to launch applications with xterm.

What is with the AC dickhead?

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46678531)

One of the nice things about WM is that the program menus are easily customisable, and you can actually get it looking pretty slick with a little tweaking. And there are still lots of themes for it floating about here and there, not too hard to find.

I'm not certain, of course, but I tend to think that our AC friend is APK. No idea what I've done to merit the schoolboy crush, though. Maybe he doesn't know that I'm married.

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46683197)

Quit hallucinating! There's no marriages in the loonybin http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeling troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46754971)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libelous troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46755145)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46675205)

You're a fruitloop http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

ttucker (2884057) | about 4 months ago | (#46678379)

I am running KDE 4.11.5, I have a taskbar, and you are making shit up.

Thank you for making me check out KDE again, I could actually use it I think. It would be nice to switch back to Linux again for work.

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719009)

Gnome3 has a taskbar available, so does KDE. So do XFCE and LXDE ... have you even used Linux?

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

ttucker (2884057) | about 4 months ago | (#46720811)

XFCE and LXDE... figure out where they belong in: depreciated, alpha, or poorly supported. Gnome is in version 4, dickhead. Naming a bunch of legacy stuff does not really respond to the point that several big players in the Linux world are going with the Windows 8 forced UI paradigm switch mentality.

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeling moron (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46755197)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Re:Yes, but then... Windows 8..... (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46718989)

Really? Most of these don't look like Windows 8 ... http://spins.fedoraproject.org... [fedoraproject.org]

Re:informal poll (5, Funny)

EvanED (569694) | about 4 months ago | (#46661719)

I don't get why anyone runs Windows.

I sometimes run Linux and sometimes run Windows. Why? Because it's nice for my OS to piss me off in different ways instead of always the same ways. :-)

Re:informal poll (1)

Bengie (1121981) | about 4 months ago | (#46661779)

Variety is the spice of life.

Re:informal poll (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46665293)

"That's what the judge is going to tell my wife."

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668743)

zontar's not mentally stable or competent and admits it http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] so don't waste your time arguiing with the nutjob zontar the mindless (apt name at least due to his delicate condition, haha): he can't digest or understand logic, or reason.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46669173)

Aw, cut him some slack--at least he's a Doors [youtube.com] fan.

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeler (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46756973)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Re:informal poll (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 4 months ago | (#46662411)

I sometimes run Linux and sometimes run Windows. Why? Because it's nice for my OS to piss me off in different ways instead of always the same ways. :-)

Very well said. I have thought the same thing often.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665553)

Let me recommend Windows 8.
Plenty of variety there.

Re:informal poll (1)

EvanED (569694) | about 4 months ago | (#46666653)

Actually I've been using Windows 8 for a while. I think I'm almost the one person who... is pretty indifferent about the changes overall. Doesn't affect my usage patterns much at all. I ignore the metro desktop and carry on with my life. :-)

Re:informal poll (1)

chuckugly (2030942) | about 4 months ago | (#46662645)

I don't get why anyone runs Windows

Developing commercial software for Windows, games, Photoshop. That's my list.

Mint (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661373)

I run Mint on my laptop...much better than the crappy Win8 it shipped with.

Re:informal poll (1)

DeTech (2589785) | about 4 months ago | (#46661389)

Ubuntu @ home.

Re:informal poll (1)

The123king (2395060) | about 4 months ago | (#46663529)

Is that some variation of Folding@Home for Linux distro development?

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46666389)

I heard a rumor someone took a dump in your skull.
thing does not equal think.
die in a fire and don't breed for the sake of mankind.

Re:informal poll (1)

alci63 (1856480) | about 4 months ago | (#46661397)

Sure I do ! In fact, it has been my only OS since 1998. Since I unplugged my old Amiga. And no, I never had dual boot. Did I have some tougth times? Sure, I did. I still can remember the "optimized for IE" web, and activeX, and lack of hardware drivers... but, now. Well, it's just working out of the box, and I don't see any reason one would not use Linux (expect for gaming maybe, but this is slowly changing also, it appears).

*gasp* (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46661497)

I still can remember the "optimized for IE" web, and activeX

dude...you were in the shit...

activeX...browser wars...holy crap it brings nightmares

Re:informal poll (2)

rujasu (3450319) | about 4 months ago | (#46661399)

I run Linux as my primary OS on my home PC.

It has dual boot with Win7 (rarely used) and VirtualBox with WinXP (used somewhat often for a couple of programs).

Re:informal poll (1)

Dasher42 (514179) | about 4 months ago | (#46661417)

I've been running Linux on my desktop more than any other OS since 1998, and only sometimes do I set up dual booting. Usually Wine or VMs are enough compatibility, and I would rather code on a Linux machine than Mac or Windows anyday.

Re:informal poll (2)

emag (4640) | about 4 months ago | (#46661423)

Debian Sid @ home on my laptop & desktop
CentOS 5/6 @ work on my cluster/desktop
Android on my phone & tablet
Synology @ home for storage, so basically Linux there, too...
OpenWRT on my wireless routers (yes, plural) @ home, so Linux there *too*.

I guess you could say I run Linux...

quite a set-up (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46661519)

n/t

Re:informal poll (1)

savuporo (658486) | about 4 months ago | (#46661751)

If you have TV or any other internet connected consumer electronics elsewhere in your house, in 98% of the cases you run Linux there too.

I'm similar.... (1)

kaladorn (514293) | about 4 months ago | (#46667933)

But I run it all:
5 licenses of XP Pro SP3 (old laptop, main desktop, netbook, older desktop, something I'm forgetting),
1 license Win 7 Home Premium (new laptop, to avoid win8 atrocity),
1 license Vista Business (argh),
1 Xubuntu install (small file server/dev box),
1 Ubuntu install (old laptop),
1 Boxee Box (linux),
1 WAP (linux),
Android 4.3 Tablet (nexus 7),
Android 4.4 Phone (nexus 4),
Android 4.1 Tablet (asus transformer prime),
1 Win95 box (older desktop),
1 WinNT 4.0 box (older desktop),

One of these once had a triple boot with XP or 95 alongside OS/2 2.1 and Yggdrasil Linux....

I'd love to migrate my XP boxes to Win 7 but Win 7 pricing is *still* stupid. And I'm vague on whether the laptop and even the desktops would have full drivers for all of the older stuff. Win 8+ is an atrocity - I can't say how much I hate METRO. Even in XP, I switched to the classic NT look.

Because of my disdain for Metro and Win 8, I may well end up with more Linux boxes. Ubuntu or Xubuntu, although a BSD might be tempting too. I've used RHEL at work and it isn't bad either.

My issue is I have so much software from small producers that I like that only runs on XP (and some of it actually requires kernel hacks - one DB fix in particular - that I am unconvinced will work on a virtualization platform) that I feel I'll have to keep some XP boxes up and running.

I rather hate the fact that I need nothing (except security updates) from Win7 or Win8 and once again I've had to relearn where all the admin tools are and so on (just like every Windows release) and I'm going to have to rebuy a bunch of apps that cost $$$ that work fine for me on XP on the new platform for no increase in utility.

Ubuntu is good and the apps are okay, but honestly they just don't match up to what the MS office apps (for instance) can do. I've tried libre office, star office, and a number of other products. They just aren't as easy to use nor as capable as MS products IMO.

The only compelling reasons to migrate forward are professional experience with the new OSes (most like teeth pulling) and security (given XP security updates are coming to an end... you'd have thought MS could out source this and charge some $ to keep security updates coming for a few more years, but they want you to migrate.

But being on Linux is no protection from changes of a major nature (Unity appearing in Ubuntu as one example). Every platform, even the free ones, if you want to keep up with current levels of software for compatibility and security, you have to take all the other UI changes, repackagings, deprecations, and additions. It's the miserable cost of staying current.

No, I'm not a luddite. I just know that XP gave me functionally pretty much everything I've needed as a professional, small office user, and heavy internet user/developer. Security could have been better (no doubt), but the truth is what Win7 and WIn8 have added has been of little utility to me and therefore is primarily an annoyance. And Chromebook sure isn't a substitute, nor is MacOS.

Re:informal poll (1)

Scholasticus (567646) | about 4 months ago | (#46661453)

Okay, I'm going to assume that you mean Linux + GNU + X.org + GNOME/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or whatever. I do. It's all I use. I have Windows XP and Windows 7 in VirtualBox because occasionally a friend or family member will call me and ask me something like, "How do I ... whatever whatever."

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661459)

CowboyNeal is my admin.

Re:informal poll (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46661565)

Bob is my hope.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661469)

I run Debian at home on my main systems. Never been dual boot. I had a laptop that dual-booted, but only because I needed to use some software for schoolwork where the linux equivalents did not work well enough (Word/LibreOffice and flash - for a foreign language class.)

Re: Informal poll (1)

drummerboybac (1003077) | about 4 months ago | (#46662727)

I run dual boot Ubuntu and RHEL 6.4 at work with 99% of the time being ubuntu. I use a Dell laptop running OS X 10.9.2 at home.

Re:informal poll (1)

HiThere (15173) | about 4 months ago | (#46667025)

I dual boot Debian stable and Debian testing. Currently Debian testing is causing my computer to periodically reboot, so I'm spending most of my time in stable.

Dual boot Linux and OSX (0)

Marrow (195242) | about 4 months ago | (#46661491)

99.99 % spent in xubuntu

Re:informal poll (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661495)

Ran Ubuntu for a while until I bought a Mac. Having a real OS with a real CLI and good drivers to save battery life? Awesome.

Re:informal poll (0)

orasio (188021) | about 4 months ago | (#46661513)

I run ubuntu in my home computer. Also in my work computer.
My kid uses ubuntu also .
My wife uses Windows 8

No dual boot, anywhere.
I am thinking of changing my media center into either android or windows though, damn netflix. But right now it's Ubuntu-xbmc

Re:informal poll (4, Funny)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46661569)

A kid'll use Ubuntu, too.
Wouldn't you?

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46673449)

Mairzy doats

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663423)

>I am thinking of changing my media center into either android or windows though, damn netflix. But right now it's Ubuntu-xbmc

Have you tried setting up pipelight?

Re:informal poll (1)

orasio (188021) | about 4 months ago | (#46664015)

Single core atom, and pipelight is not very pretty or reliable.
If I change the hardware, it's gonna be an android tv box , or a tablet I have lying around.

Re:informal poll (2)

UltraZelda64 (2309504) | about 4 months ago | (#46661523)

I currently run openSUSE for its relatively up-to-date programs, working wireless drivers (especially for my previous system with a POS Broadcom chip), etc. I now have a system with slightly more Linux-friendly drivers (Intel wireless), I just have to wait for the major distros to support it because it's so new (Debian Testing supposedly does, I just don't want to run Testing...). I might then switch to another distro, but I'm staying with Linux. I primarily use the i3 window manager, except on occasion when I want to play a game on Steam (which doesn't seem to get along too well with i3, so I temporarily switch to KDE).

Ironically, after "upgrading" from the crap that is Windows 8 that the laptop came with to Windows 8.1, the damn operating system can't even boot half the time without locking up. Not that big of a deal, since I rarely need it... but god damn, does it get annoying when I would like to reboot into it for whatever reason. Even worse is when I spend 5 reboots and 15 minutes just to spend 2 or 3 minutes actually doing something in the OS.

Re:informal poll (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | about 4 months ago | (#46661529)

i'm not talking all FOSS and this doesn't include Android...I'm asking specifically about the Linux OS

So, you want to know who runs Linux, and you don't know what Linux means. Facepalm.

My desktop runs Fedora, and my laptops run Ubuntu Studio, which are versions of the GNU/Linux OS. My Transformer, my no-name tablet, and my phones run Android, an OS based on Linux.

I also have one cheap second-hand laptop that runs Windows, bought only because I had to make precise changes to the layout of a Word doc for my book [infamous.net] . Gross incompetence on the part of the person doing layout for my publisher.

one reason why people hate Linux (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46666485)

So, you want to know who runs Linux, and you don't know what Linux means. Facepalm.

Linux doesn't make your dick bigger.

Re:one reason why people hate Linux (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | about 4 months ago | (#46671775)

Linux doesn't make your dick bigger.

No, and thank goodness for that -- why mess with perfection?

GNU/Linux and Android systems do, however, make your freedom [gnu.org] bigger -- not perfectly so, but contrasted with the freedom-shrinking offerings from MS and Apple, Linux is a clear win.

And, more relevantly, on a tech site (this is still one, right?), we ought to expect people -- especially those who ask loaded questions -- to know that Linux is a kernel and is common to both GNU/Linux and Android systems (as well as a few other rarer OSes).

nitpicking is trolling & its all fanboi narcis (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46676967)

what has happened over the past 20 years is not that people are losing their religion, but that people feel more free to admit that they never had one.

my question wasn't "loaded" your context which you hear my question is biased

you're one of those who gets fanboi narcissists **self-confidence** from knowing & pointing out irrelevant esoteric details

nitpicking is trolling

I wanted **desktop and laptop** systems...what "flavor"

you're a troll to nitpick that

Re:informal poll (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 4 months ago | (#46661541)

Translation: I'm moving the goalposts wayyyyy over there! Now tell me, who can make it to the goalposts?

Re:informal poll (1)

o'reor (581921) | about 4 months ago | (#46661543)

I use Linux at work and at home. So does my wife on her own laptop. I also maintain a Linux distro on my parents' laptop, which spares them the hassle of dealing with malware/viruses/adwares.

Despite having had trouble with trojans and adware on their Windows PC, and the fact that Linux would cover 100% of their computing needs, I still haven't convinced my inlaws to migrate to Linux, and they've had their PC unusable for a few weeks now, once again, due to adware.

YMMV.

Re:informal poll (0)

therealprologic (2118298) | about 4 months ago | (#46661563)

a) Linux IS NOT an OS. b) I run CRUX/Linux as my primary Desktop c) I have been using Linux-based OS(es) as my primary Desktop and Development platform for over 12 years.

Re:informal poll (1)

Handover Phist (932667) | about 4 months ago | (#46661589)

Slackware. Dual boot with Win 7 for War Thunder. If War Thunder ran easily on Slack I'd chuck the old 80 Gig drive.

Re:informal poll (1)

Handover Phist (932667) | about 4 months ago | (#46661681)

Wait, that's not quite right. The family likes to watch their flickershows so I installed an EXT3 driver for Windows and set up the XBox as a Windows Media Center extender to stream stuff to the TV. We gave up on cable TV a bit over a decade ago. From what I've seen at work on lunch breaks, that was the decision to go with.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661591)

I do, no dual boot whatsoever. Same at work

I must admit however that I have a virtual WinXP on my work computer. It is required for some part of the work I have to do.

Re:informal poll (5, Funny)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | about 4 months ago | (#46661597)

who runs Linux these days?

Linux is 25 years old now. You don't run it, you walk it slowly with a leash and let it have a pee on the front lawn.

good ol' Linux (1)

opus981 (2663227) | about 4 months ago | (#46664209)

Last I checked, Linux is 20 years old.

Re:good ol' Linux (1)

rk (6314) | about 4 months ago | (#46665731)

Split the difference, it's actually remarkably close to the average of your number and his: 22.5 years, with the first kernel release on October 5, 1991.

What do you call it? (1)

kaladorn (514293) | about 4 months ago | (#46667939)

Do you call your Linux "Flash"?

(sorry, your username made that joke inevitable).

Re:informal poll (0)

AvitarX (172628) | about 4 months ago | (#46661617)

I did until last year when I purchased a Macbook Pro with the 256GB SSD.

It's a work computer that I have total control over. Previously I had a thinkpad, Win7 for Creative suite, PowerPoint, and Trial Director, and Ubuntu for everything else (personal, and petty website work).

The new computer has a small hard drive, and rather than figure out howto:
1) triple boot
2) split it into three pieces

I use Win7 exclusively (I have a small OSX partition that I don't think has been booted since the first week I had the laptop).

Purchased the 13.3 inch for the lightness, and the screen. I can't wait until screens like this hit the PC world, bonus if it's cheaper even! Win7 suffers mildly on the screen, especially CS4, but it's totally work the minor annoyances to have real workspace when I'm off site for weeks at a time.

Re:informal poll (1)

roman_mir (125474) | about 4 months ago | (#46661623)

I've been purely on Ubuntu and now Mint, since 2006 and I switched a number of clients to Mint as well (a retail chain even).

In my company I set everybody up with a Mint system, I only allowed one person to have 2 (two) Windows machines at the same time, but his job requires this, we have to make sure our products are tested on Windows as well of-course.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665355)

Hey, look, another reason to avoid Ubuntu like the plague.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661633)

Me. And other people who have a clue.

big troll or biggest troll? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661639)

flagged as inappropriate. Dice police on the way.

Re:informal poll (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 4 months ago | (#46661721)

My two laptops and desktop all run primarily linux. The desktop and one laptop can dual-boot windows, mostly for gaming (Space Engineers promises Linux support one day, but not yet) and to run a few windows-only programs. I could learn to use the Gimp, but Paint Shop Pro is what I know, and I'd rather not start over with a whole new interface. Rarely done though - I work almost entirely in linux.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661855)

I run GNU/Linux as my primary operating system at home and rarely boot the VM containing Microsoft Windows 7.

Re:informal poll (1)

hawguy (1600213) | about 4 months ago | (#46661905)

who runs Linux these days?

for your **personal computer** not work terminal or music server

i'm not talking all FOSS and this doesn't include Android...I'm asking specifically about the Linux OS

also, please specify if you can dual boot w/ multiple OS's

I run Ubuntu on my home and work desktops and manage a dozen Ubuntu desktops at work (mostly developers and customer service reps).

I thought Linux was the kernel so why isn't android a "Linux OS"?

Re:informal poll (1)

HeckRuler (1369601) | about 4 months ago | (#46662007)

Yo. I run Xubuntu. Could never swallow Unity. If I wasn't so lazy I'd try Arch.

Could probably dual boot if I wanted to. It's been years since I bothered with that.

Don't get me wrong, I also have a laptop running Win7. Gotta game on something. And I'm too damn lazy to putz about with WINE constantly. But Xubuntu does everything I want it to other than run Starcraft.

Re:informal poll (1)

x_t0ken_407 (2716535) | about 4 months ago | (#46662051)

I run Fedora 20 standalone on my laptop (which I use for personal use and work), Fed20 on my desktop also, but it's dual-booted there w/Win7 for gaming. All my servers run FreeBSD :p

Re:informal poll (1)

dtfinch (661405) | about 4 months ago | (#46662169)

Xubuntu at home (Windows-free), XP at work :c

Re:informal poll (1)

Delwin (599872) | about 4 months ago | (#46662333)

You can't discount Android for this. Android is a Linux distro and uses the Linux kernel.

my informal poll (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46666537)

I did.

I wanted to keep the whole mobile device thing separate...i wanted to know what running on their **desktop or laptop**

I also know that Linux is a kernel not an OS, but I just wanted to see the Linux/1337 crowd condescend and nitpick for old time's sake...

You know that just because you have esoteric knowledge doesn't make you better than someone, right?

Re:my informal poll (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 4 months ago | (#46666783)

but I just wanted to see the Linux/1337 crowd condescend and nitpick for old time's sake

Yes, we get that you are bored and just want yet another petty argument. How about posting something interesting instead?

trolling faster than the speed of light (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46668327)

Re:trolling faster than the speed of light (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 4 months ago | (#46669915)

Well played. See - that's so much more fun than trolling people about their choice of operating system or display environment.

why did you have to say this you spaz? (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46670871)

you ruined all the goodwill here you dipshit...damnit

trolling people about their choice of operating system or display environment.

asking what OS/kernel/display environment whatever you want to call it is not trolling

I want you to explain why my informal poll, which 44 people responded to, is "trolling"

slashdot roughly defines trolling in the moderator guidelines...show me how i was trolling

i'm not going to respond...i already 'foe'ed you to avoid this shit...damnit i hate people like you

Re:why did you have to say this you spaz? (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 4 months ago | (#46673539)

Goodwill? You have me marked as "foe" FFS.

Re:informal poll (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662419)

who runs Linux these days?

Master Blaster

Re:informal poll (1)

X0563511 (793323) | about 4 months ago | (#46662453)

There is no such thing. Linux is just an OS kernel. It may be a key part of what you consider an OS, but it's still just a part.

Re:informal poll (1)

whoever57 (658626) | about 4 months ago | (#46662469)

Me: Gentoo at home. CentOS at work.

My wife and children use Ubuntu.

gentoo! (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46666527)

ha! i was wondering if someone would be on gentoo

wow...

so do you think you'll ever need anything else?

Re:gentoo! (1)

whoever57 (658626) | about 4 months ago | (#46667361)

so do you think you'll ever need anything else?

I am at a crossroads right now. When I go to update my system, it wants to install Gnome3, despite my efforts to block this. I need to spend some time working on installing Mate, but that will make my system unusable for quite some time while I do this, since I need to remove Gnome2 before installing Mate (I think).

I have been very pleased with Gentoo. I have systems that were first installed 9 years ago, but are still fully up-to-date, with latest kernels, etc.

Re:gentoo! (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46668265)

I have systems that were first installed 9 years ago, but are still fully up-to-date, with latest kernels, etc.

right...cool...this is what I had envisioned when I dipped my toe into Linux...I asked /. which flavor I should install (IIRC Red Hat was pretty new & getting alot of coverage...no Ubuntu yet)

I liked the reasons given by the Gentoo people so I thought I'd try to install Gentoo and learn programming at the same time...

Didn't ever start the project...it was just too much complexity for me...plus I moved to a place in Colorado that didn't have internet access (or cell reception!!) so I never did it

I wonder if my life would be different if I had bit the bullet and forced myself to go through the process and learn...

Re:informal poll (1)

spitzak (4019) | about 4 months ago | (#46662945)

My home computer is dual boot with Ubuntu (12?) and Windows 7, and I never use Windows on it (I know because there is a bug and it does not work with the serial keyboard, so I have to dig out and plug in the USB keyboard that came with the machine if I want to boot it into Windows, and right now I don't even know where that keyboard is (ps the bug is strange: only the login does not work. Once you log in the serial keyboard works just fine)). We also have a much older iMac and a couple Android tablets and one iPad, an ancient iMac PowerPC used to play music on the stereo, and an ASUS Linux netbook that amazingly still works and is used by visitors more than I would expect.

Re:informal poll (1)

NeverVotedBush (1041088) | about 4 months ago | (#46662961)

I run Linux at both work and home. At home I run multiple instances on multiple computers (4). No dual boot though I still have an XP partition hanging around with old data but it is no longer a dual boot partition.

Re:informal poll (1)

fredboboss (1059056) | about 4 months ago | (#46663725)

I'll bite the troll as well : I've been happily running linux as my main OS at home since 1996. The last time I dual booted with win2k was in, well, 2000. Ever since then I've been solely using Debian, and it's been filling all my needs : web, programming, word processing, scientific computing, and so on (though I reckon I don't play games). Why would I trade reliability for something else ?

Re:informal poll (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46666551)

how is my poll a "troll"?

i wanted to avoid fanboi arguments and find out what people **actually use**

and i wanted to know how many people dual boot

WTF is wrong with that?

Linux fanbois are so damn touchy!

I'm not a Linux hater at all!

Re:informal poll (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719125)

Its trolling. If you can't see why, that's not our problem.

You didn't phrase it as an actual poll, you phrased it with intent to drag people into an argument.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663795)

I used to dual boot with Windows, but found myself having no need of the dual boot. I now run only Linux on both my main desktop and laptop. I run a Debian based system with i3 as the windows manager. For my desktop, I boot everything except the home folder off a usb stick and into ram for regular use (very fast and secure).

Re:informal poll (1)

CBravo (35450) | about 4 months ago | (#46664371)

@home: Ubuntu, @work: Ubuntu with Virtualbox running windows for email, @work.server: Debian

No dual boot anywhere

Re:informal poll (1)

sjames (1099) | about 4 months ago | (#46665015)

All of my PCs at home are Linux and have been for years. I have a VM of Windows, but use it only for testing. My DVR is a USB capture device and a laptop connected up behind my TV running Debian.

Re:informal poll (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46665273)

I've run nothing but Linux on any of my (work or personal) computers since 2005.

On those occasions when I need to work with the Windows versions of our software, I have a Win7 VM that I run in VirtualBox.

Dual-boot? Why would I want to do that?

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668753)

zontar's not mentally stable or competent and admits it http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] so don't waste your time arguiing with the nutjob zontar the mindless (apt name at least due to his delicate condition, haha): he can't digest or understand logic, or reason.

Re:informal poll (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46669181)

Oh, and all my mobile devices run Android, and yes, Android counts as Linux.

Re:informal poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46669229)

Only an admitted nutjob like you would use it http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] considering it's being torn apart daily by exploits. So much for the years of "Windows is insecure, and Linux is secure" crap you trolling penguin idiots spouted here for a decade and then some. You're all losers and liars as far as that's concerned and about time your own stupidity exposed you all. I think it's utterly hilarious in fact. Fact: The more any operating system is used on any given platform, the more it will be exploited. You morons are reaping that now. You like? It makes you all look so stupid with the crap you all spouted here for years.

of course it does (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46690055)

and yes, Android counts as Linux.

yes.

of course it does.

I wanted to poll about desktop & laptop usage...not mobile

What is more interesting is **why** you felt the need to point that out...

Re:of course it does (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46691689)

You said "personal computer". You did not say anything about desktops, laptops, or mobile devices.

Since I use my mobile devices for both personal and work-related computing tasks (and not just making/sending/receiving calls/messages, either), I consider them mobile personal computers. :^)

You also said, "this doesn't include Android...I'm asking specifically about the Linux OS," which is a bit like asking for water but specifying that it mustn't be too damp.

IOW, you might want to consider the possibility that you posed a really badly worded question.

exactly b/c of dumb "personal definitions" (1)

globaljustin (574257) | about 4 months ago | (#46699187)

I consider them mobile personal computers

yes...**exactly** why I phrased it as I did

i was taking a survey...surveys need consistent definitions. idiots attach their personal pride to answering the question "Do you run Linux" which biases answers. I just wanted to know who used it for a certain task *only*....so...i needed to be proactive to avoid idiots like you...you know you're essentially trolling when you make dumb distinctions like that, right?

everyone can see that you nitpick and make your own "personal definitions" just to have an excuse to look intelligent

**stop it**

it is obstructive, needlessly confusing & completely rooted in your personal narcissism

Re:exactly b/c of dumb "personal definitions" (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719151)

You're the one inventing definitions.

My wife's tablet is her PC these days. She barely uses anything else.

My primary computer is a traditional PC. Does that make one of those not a personal computer? In that case, she doesn't have one at all, just like a LOT of people who've moved on to portable devices running more stable operating systems.

That is to say, you excluded the one platform where Linux made the most in-roads simply by being physically more convenient and therefore breaking expectations.

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeling troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46754853)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeling troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46754863)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeling troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46754869)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Re:informal poll (1)

robsku (1381635) | about 4 months ago | (#46667443)

\o. It's the best system available for my preferences AFAIK. I have several systems, ranging from netbook to servers and I've used linux as internet server (HTTP,SSH), LAN (samba,vnc,X,etc.), gaming (though mostly via wine, dosbox or some console/oldtech emulator), multimedia/entertainment system, etc... you name it.

Re:informal poll (1)

robsku (1381635) | about 4 months ago | (#46667517)

Oh, forgot... I don't do dualboot.

Re:informal poll (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719043)

I run my home desktop dual-screen on Linux. My work desktop is also a real box running Fedora, not some low-end terminal.

Both have accelerated video using NVidia cards and 8-16GB of RAM.

All of our smart phones and tablets run either Linux or the other Linux known as Android.

What's your problem exactly?

Linus is getting old and cranky (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661317)

Time for that boy to move along and let someone with fresh ideas take over.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (5, Informative)

roman_mir (125474) | about 4 months ago | (#46661351)

Time for that boy to move along and let someone with fresh ideas take over.

- oh yeah, fresh ideas like: "you didn't build that".
Fresh ideas like: "the consumer created those jobs".
Fresh ideas like: "all responsibility is shared".

----

I think Linus is 100% spot on with his comment:

Key, I'm f*cking tired of the fact that you don't fix problems in the
code *you* write, so that the kernel then has to work around the
problems you cause. ....

But I'm not willing to merge something where the maintainer is known to not care about bugs and regressions and then forces people in other projects to fix their project. Because I am *not* willing to take patches from people who don't clean up after their problems, and don't admit that it's their problem to fix.

Kay - one more time: you caused the problem, you need to fix it. None of this "I can do whatever I want, others have to clean up after me" crap. .....
Linus

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661755)

God Bless Linus!

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

roman_mir (125474) | about 4 months ago | (#46662095)

there is no god.
there is no magic.
there are no souls.

we are it, there is nothing beyond the material existence that we know of and there is no need to come up with constructs that are more complex than necessary to explain our existence. Epicycles were not necessary to explain planetary motion, neither are gods necessary to explain our lives.

Thus the statement "god bless Linus" should be rephrased as:

Blessed be Rationality and Self Interest, the One True Engine of Progress!

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

alexo (9335) | about 4 months ago | (#46663161)

there is no god.
there is no magic.
there are no souls

With you so far...

Blessed be Rationality and Self Interest, the One True Engine of Progress!

What is the meaning of blessings in the absence of gods?

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46664677)

It doesn't mean anything more than: 'viva la' or salute to.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46674141)

What is the meaning of blessings in the absence of gods?

What you are seeing there is a deeply religious person trying to get others to believe him to be an atheist. He buys the act but everyone else sees through it; he has more faith than the pope.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

alexo (9335) | about 4 months ago | (#46675365)

he has more faith than the pope.

I don't know if the pope has any faith at all or just plays the part in order to keep his cushy job.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46671353)

there is no god.

except for the god that leads the religious movement you so fervently invest in your time and efforts into.
 
 

there is no magic.

except for that which is promised by the leader of your religious movemnet.
 
 

there are no souls.

that cannot be saved by the salvation of your religious leader.
 
 

there is nothing beyond the material existence that we know of

which is why all of existence must be dedicated to the leader of The One True Religion.
 
 

Blessed be Rationality and Self Interest, the One True Engine of Progress!

which all comes from your religious leader, right?

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662535)

Linus: You didn't build that. We built that.

You broke that.

You're fired!

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663817)

Linus didn't build it either. He copied it from far superior minds.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719159)

Crappy troll smells like crap.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663143)

New ideas like trolling politics in a software development thread? You realize that he doesn't actually support your BS causes, right?

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665239)

a. s/w development 101, why are we releasing code that has a history of faults, sure from the same developer, but still, who allowed its release? Test plans, use cases, tracability, regression testing? Do we even do that anymore in the F/OSS world? This is more of a trust issue than a code issue. Linus need to take this conversation private, we don't need childish scolding in a technical forum for a trust issue. It's unprofessional and with the way kernel development is structured makes the dev environment unprofessional.

b. Fresh ideas like: "all responsibility is shared".
Putting strict, direct blame sure sounds shared. Geez the kernel team discussion is starting to sound like the US Congress.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665565)

How you like those faggot dicks that are smacking your face now, Repiglican?
How you like those black men mating your white women, Repiglican?
How you like the rise of the real righteous and not religious bigot fucks like you, Repiglican?
 
Hillary 2016!!!!!

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661385)

His problem is that he believes he is right in all things and has a huge ego.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

Dishevel (1105119) | about 4 months ago | (#46661849)

So you believe you are wrong?

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661943)

His problem is that he believes he is right in all things and has a huge ego.

Here's the thing: in this case, Linus is definitely right, and Kay is definitely being dickish. Namespacing the switch (checking for "systemd.debug" instead of just "debug") would take all of 5 minutes and would solve the problem, the only inconvenience would be to the systemd developers who would need 8 (!) extra characters on their kernel command lines. Acceptance of systemd is already lower than it should be if everyone judged it purely on the merits, and this kind of thing does not help at all.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

Marginal Coward (3557951) | about 4 months ago | (#46662005)

His problem is that he believes he is right in all things and has a huge ego.

Sounds like necessary qualifications for the job to me.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (4, Interesting)

colinrichardday (768814) | about 4 months ago | (#46662291)

That's a feature, not a bug.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719179)

Neat Linux trick -- you can make your own simply by copying his and doing your own damn thing with it. That's the beauty of the GPL. Go ahead, fork the kernel and be rid of Linus forever.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (5, Interesting)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46661501)

Kay is either an arrogant asshat or an aspberger's victim. Either way, he hasn't demonstrated an interest in collaborating on a solution for the whole forest, over the pure vision of his one, true tree.

Without Linus, Linux is doomed.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (-1, Troll)

rs79 (71822) | about 4 months ago | (#46661959)

As far as I can tell using Linux is the primary symptom of Assburgers.

The bug is interesting and has deep ramifications. What does /. do ? Have everyone post "I use Linux". Oy.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662403)

As far as I can tell using OSX is the primary sign of being a pretentious asshole. But I don't go around calling pretentious assholes what they are. Because I am, you know, respectful?

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

rs79 (71822) | about 4 months ago | (#46666075)

Sure but that's subjective. Post the same two posts on a mac website and the scoring is swapped.

(note also, I use neither, bsd isn't quite as dead as Netcraft suggests)

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719197)

Last I checked, Mac users don't mind being called pretentious assholes.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

rs79 (71822) | about 4 months ago | (#46661989)

Also, any system that will die if one person does, then it's too weak to live. Human progress depends on the things people build being made to outlive them.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

sjames (1099) | about 4 months ago | (#46664591)

It just means a new Linus would be needed. There are a few suitable candidates should the need arise.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662111)

Didn't Linus kind of build it?

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665557)

I there were no Linus, man would invent him.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

TheCarp (96830) | about 4 months ago | (#46661757)

Not so sure about that. The very fact that this is news tells me:

1. It doesn't happen too often. There have been a handful of these... over the course of a few years. If it was happening every day, we wouldn't see stories about Linus chewing out some dev, nobody would bother posting stories like this every week or even month for long.

2. Since these stories have occasionally cropped up, I can't think of a single serious kernel story I have seen of any kind. SO the kernel must be in pretty good, stable shape if this is all there is to report.

Re:Linus is getting old and cranky (1)

Arker (91948) | about 4 months ago | (#46663183)

Eh, did you even read the thread? The bug reports?

Linus is outspoken and blunt but as long as the subject is not licenses he is also usually right. In this case, doubly so.

Unfortunately what tends to pass for "fresh ideas" these days are the same old bad ideas only expressed less shamefully. Deliberately introducing bugs in your project to force another project to make the changes you want in order to work around them is a very old idea but it's still not a good one.

Linus is being Linus. (5, Insightful)

Lisias (447563) | about 4 months ago | (#46661329)

And this is good.

Quote from the Linus email:

Kay - one more time: you caused the problem, you need to fix it. None of this "I can do whatever I want, others have to clean up after me" crap.

Being Kay a Red Hat paid developer, perhaps it's not his entirely fault what's happening. But it's his name on the table, so it's his responsability nevertheless.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661493)

Well, if Kay doesn't want to fix it, why doesn't Linus simply revert his buggy commit/branch?

I don't understand.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (5, Informative)

gigne (990887) | about 4 months ago | (#46661553)

Because the code that needs "fixing" is in systemd, not in the Linux codebase. therefore Linus cannot revert.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 4 months ago | (#46664539)

Linus can merge his branch again, against an earlier version of Kay's branch.

(I do CM in git for a living. Been there, done that.)

Re:Linus is being Linus. (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661611)

because it's a bug in *systemd*, not in the kernel, but it prevents the kernel from loading in debug mode.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46667299)

Yet another reason not to use systemd.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Cramer (69040) | about 4 months ago | (#46686739)

That's one insignificant reason among thousands.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719207)

You needed a 432nd?

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46675183)

Technically there's a bug in the kernel too (kernel dbus cause a panic if it's given too much data too quickly, which is what systemd is doing when debugging is enabled)

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Cramer (69040) | about 4 months ago | (#46686761)

No, the bug is systemd thinking it's the whole damned universe. The kernel cmdline is the Kernel's Command Line, not f'ing systemd's.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662463)

Well, if Kay doesn't want to fix it, why doesn't Linus simply revert his buggy commit/branch?

I don't understand.

Because having "debug" on the kernel command line has worked for years/decades with the Linux kernel, and now suddently systemD is doing something /proc/cmdline that causes systems to stop booting when it is present.

Nothing is broken with the kernel: it boots, finds devices, and starts PID 1. It's only when systemD is PID 1 that having "debug" causes a problem. The change occurred with systemD, and so the reversion should occur with systemD because it breaks backwards compatibility with a well-known API (in this case the the kernel "CLI").

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665665)

The best Linus can do now is to start the systemd replacement of his own. It is just hilarious, that the two most hated parts of Linux (systemd and pulseaudio) are also annoying the kernel developers. Neither of these are rocket science when compared to the OS that runs them, so if Linus wanted to fix things, he would simply write the kernel initialization process a one step forward to the first login prompt, where people normally see his system for the first time. Uninstalling pulseaudio is easy, and it usually happens without any audible problems, but replacing a startup system is not so easy from a user point of view.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Cramer (69040) | about 4 months ago | (#46686813)

Like... WHAT WE'VE BEEN USING FOR DECADES! There are MANY reasons to hate systemd, and only 2(?) reasons to want to use it -- and even those aren't that compelling. Linux (and every other *NIX) has been booting, starting, and stopping applications for decades, but now we have to have a mini-OS to do this (and hundreds of other things that have been very sucessfully handled by numerous other applications for just as long -- like getty, inetd, syslog, portmap, etc.)

Re:Linus is being Linus. (2)

Parker Lewis (999165) | about 4 months ago | (#46662041)

> you caused the problem, you need to fix it This is true in ANY development company/organization/group. In my first days, they even call me at my night to ask me to fix a build that I broke due don't run proper checking/testing.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46666077)

others have to clean up after me, comes later.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46672495)

Give that fat ass Finnish piece of crap the finger and fork it.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46748053)

You caused the problem is different than you TRIGGERED the problem.
  This is only really necessary because the current kernel log timestamps are unusable crap. (We could fix that, hint hint.)
Think of how much Torvolds could fix if he spent his time fixing his crap instead of acting like an asshole.
Torvolds has an advantage that most people will go along with "it's my ball, and i'm taking it home" attitude.
The kernel owns undefined keywords now and returns a system hang on invalid input.
What are you? Twelve?
fix your garbage.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (5, Informative)

x_t0ken_407 (2716535) | about 4 months ago | (#46662075)

I read the mailing list thread as well as the bugzilla report [freedesktop.org] ...Kay certainly was certainly being a complete dick here. Too many people will see this as "an asshole being an asshole" w/respect to Linus, but he actually had a reason [this time, lol].

Re:Linus is being Linus. (5, Insightful)

Bill Dimm (463823) | about 4 months ago | (#46662175)

but he actually had a reason [this time, lol]

I've read about quite a few of these "Linux blow-ups" over the years, and I can't think of a single instance where I cam away thinking Linus was anything short of fully justified once you actually looked at the context.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

x_t0ken_407 (2716535) | about 4 months ago | (#46662293)

Admittedly I've not read nearly enough into the "blow-ups" to even have a valid opinion on this. Let's see, there's this one, and then there's the one where he was accused of being a misogynistic ass, then there's the "fuck you nvidia" one. Yeah, I tend to agree with you...everyone I've read into I completely agree with him on.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (3, Interesting)

Sun (104778) | about 4 months ago | (#46662881)

Blowing up at Andrew Tridgdell [theregister.co.uk] after he "reverse engineered" (i.e. - sent "help" on a telnet connection) the bitkeeper protocol, causing bitkeeper to withdraw support from the kernel.

Personally, I think bitkeeper were just waiting for an excuse to do that. Their business justification was quickly eroding. The needs of the kernel and the needs of their commercial customers were drifting apart. Supporting the kernel was becoming a liability, rather than an asset, to them. That's also the reason, I think, that they were so quick to withdraw all support after such a minor infraction.

Shachar

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

allo (1728082) | about 4 months ago | (#46663941)

And, is bitkeeper still around, now that everyone is using git?

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

petermgreen (876956) | about 4 months ago | (#46664497)

Looks like it's still arround.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46665469)

BK were very quick after that to start charging MySQL for it. As in "about a week later". MySQL put up with this for about 6 months (not being able to do much about it at a moment's notice), then switched to BZR, which they're still using.

BitKeeper had some nice whizz-bangs. But it also ate CPU like crazy--even a simple pull would peg it. You simply could not do anything else with your machine while BK was doing anything.

I remember at the time thinking it was pretty funny that BK assumed that folks who write an OS kernel would somehow be unable to write their own VCS.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668729)

zontar's not mentally stable or competent and admits it http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] so don't waste your time arguiing with the nutjob zontar the mindless (apt name at least due to his delicate condition, haha): he can't digest or understand logic, or reason.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

vanye (7120) | about 4 months ago | (#46673305)

Yes, and git is what you get when (one very talented) kernel developer writes a VCS for himself.

bk was better. It just worked. At a time when DVCS were bleeding edge, it was usable by people who came straight from CVS, that was a major achievement. That's what makes it better.

I've used RCS, SCCS, CVS, ptools (SGI's homegrown system), BK, SVN, HG, fossil, git.

I hate git the most.

But its one I picked to replace SVN; whereas fossil is my personal preference, sometimes you need to take one for the team...

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeler (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46756939)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46672771)

except it wasn't an infraction at all, the "reverse engineering" consisted of entering a HELP command which bitkeeper supported and replied to by dumping out information. If bitkeeper considered those commands secret, they should not have been documented by bitkeeper in response to HELP

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Cramer (69040) | about 4 months ago | (#46686925)

Tridge did a f***load more than just send "help" to a bkd. The most damning part was that he continued working on it after a) being told to stop, and b) agreeing to stop.

But yes, Larry was very tired of the community continually pissing on his hard work. Tridge was one who shit in the sandbox and got us all thrown out.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Sun (104778) | about 4 months ago | (#46690593)

Can you please provides citations to the "agreed to stop" claim?

Shachar

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663521)

When Linus got furious with Andrew Tridgell for "reverse engineering" the BitKeeper client, causing Larry McVoy to throw a hissy-fit, take his ball, and go home, I thought that was totally uncalled for. From what I understand, Andrew had connected to a BitKeeper server with telnet, typed "help", and got a help text describing the protocol. From there he made an open source client.

In this case, Linus couldn't accept that he was wrong to use a proprietary system for source control, which could be taken away on a whim. He was right, however, in that the existing non-distributed VCS tools (such as cvs or subversion) wouldn't scale too well for how the kernel devs worked. Of course, the good that came out of this was Git, so I'd say Andrew Tridgell did the world a favor. Not sure how Linus feels about that incident now though.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Lisias (447563) | about 4 months ago | (#46669653)

Of course, the good that came out of this was Git, so I'd say Andrew Tridgell did the world a favor. Not sure how Linus feels about that incident now though.

This is a very good question to ask Linus on an interview, don't you think?

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Cramer (69040) | about 4 months ago | (#46687037)

Right, tridge completely reverse engineered BK from the output of "HELP"; and Kevin Mitnik could launch nukes by whistling into a phone. He did a lot more than just send "help" to a bkd. He didn't do anyone any good; git is a pile of shit... it was designed in a rush to handle exactly *one* thing. People only flock to it because a) it's free, and b) "the kernel uses it". (which, for the record, are the same two reasons thousands of projects used bitkeeper.)

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719279)

Your last point is why BitMover should never have stopped supporting the kernel developers for free.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1, Flamebait)

squiggleslash (241428) | about 4 months ago | (#46662397)

Agreed. 99% of the time when a headline about Torvalds being in a fight with someone, I think "Here we go again", and my prejudices are confirmed. In this case though, it's a 100% legitimate response to someone who's being a four-letter-word to people suffering a legitimate issue with a bizarre implementation choice.

The only problem I can see is... well, is Kay actually a Linux developer? This sounds a little like me banning Brandon Eich from my house because I don't like his hate campaign donations. It's almost passive-aggressive. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663219)

Kay certainly was certainly being a complete dick here.

That attitude seems to pervade RedHat. Gavin King (of Hibernate fame) is generally a complete jerk as well.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

7-Vodka (195504) | about 4 months ago | (#46666751)

I don't see any evidence of him being a dick.

I see him saying this is not a bug and asking people to move the discussion elsewhere.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Lisias (447563) | about 4 months ago | (#46672811)

I don't see any evidence of him being a dick.

I see him saying this is not a bug and asking people to move the discussion elsewhere.

I suggest Redmond. I think he will be fine around there. :-)

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Ol Olsoc (1175323) | about 4 months ago | (#46671321)

I read the mailing list thread as well as the bugzilla report [freedesktop.org] ...Kay certainly was certainly being a complete dick here.

He was definitely justified in bouncing the dude, nd "being a dick" is a very gentle term. I read the report, Sievers needs to go to Redmond, where bugs are actually features.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662423)

So, explain to me why this Kay person is the only person who can fix it? Isn't part of the central ethos of OSS that any can fix a problem?

Re:Linus is being Linus. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46664137)

He can, but they're tired of Kay breaking other portions of the system by making changes to the specific program he develops. Kay then will tell people to submit a patch to fix it since his program is working the way he wants, even if it is breaking other things by not following an established method. This has been going on for years. In this case he broke a system that has worked fine for decades and sees it at someone else's problem. It will get fixed by someone else and Kay has been suspended from sending in more system breaking changes, but if Kay was willing to clean up his own mess for once, people wouldn't be so upset with him.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (5, Insightful)

Rich0 (548339) | about 4 months ago | (#46662745)

Being Kay a Red Hat paid developer, perhaps it's not his entirely fault what's happening. But it's his name on the table, so it's his responsability nevertheless.

Somehow I doubt RedHat is paying him to abuse people in their bugzilla. I suspect they tolerate him because he is a rock star. In some sense Linus just put them at a disadvantage competitively so it is now more in their interest to reign things in.

If I posted something like that on a forum owned by my employer or using an email address that named my employer I'd get a strong reprimand at the very least. I'd like to think that they wouldn't fire me over it on a first offense, but no doubt it would cross their mind, and if I kept it up I'd be gone for sure (and rightly so). Kay's reputation isn't the only one at stake.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46665365)

Being Kay a Red Hat paid developer, perhaps it's not his entirely fault what's happening. But it's his name on the table, so it's his responsability nevertheless.

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. There are a number of RH developers who are in favor of Linus' argument. Hell, the guy who posted the kernel patch at https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/415 to circumvent this from the kernel also works at RH

Disclaimer: I do too

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Lisias (447563) | about 4 months ago | (#46669689)

Being Kay a Red Hat paid developer, perhaps it's not his entirely fault what's happening. But it's his name on the table, so it's his responsability nevertheless.

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I agree. Being that the reason I put that "perhaps" word in the phrase - didn't you noticed it?

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46672743)

Regardless of who is to "blame", nothing excuses Linus's childish behaviour. This could have been dealt with in a far more professional manner

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

Lisias (447563) | about 4 months ago | (#46672837)

Regardless of who is to "blame", nothing excuses Linus's childish behaviour. This could have been dealt with in a far more professional manner

Every single Linux user is a excuse for Linus's behaviour, being it childish or not.

I agree with you that working to Linus can be a harsh, very harsh way of earn your living. But yet, no one is forced to do so.

Are you pissed off with Linus? Walk away.

Don't condone Linus behaviour? Use FreeBSD on your box or IOS/WP on your phone.

Or fork the Kernel and do the job yourself. :-)

Re:Linus is being Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46673715)

Regardless of who is to "blame", nothing excuses Linus's childish behaviour. This could have been dealt with in a far more professional manner

Oh look, another member of the ultra-pussy "don't hurt my precious feelings" generation. Suck it up, princess, or go home and cry to your mommy. Linus is talking like an Engineer, not a fucking idiot Manager.

Re:Linus is being Linus. (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719321)

I'm sick of people using the word "professional" to mean something it doesn't mean.

There's nothing unprofessional about telling another professional he's being walked out the door by security for not playing well with others.

If anyone was unprofessional, its the RedHat employee who kept closing bug reports without acknowledging the problem.

hold on (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661335)

Before everyone gets all shouty, lets remember that the kernel does all of their work in public and Linus just talks like a sailor. This doesn't need to be made into a bigger deal than it is just so commentators can have their pissing matches.

Re:hold on (3, Funny)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | about 4 months ago | (#46661393)

Linus just talks like a sailor.

Arrh, I dun think so me shiverin' matey!

Re:hold on (1)

Marginal Coward (3557951) | about 4 months ago | (#46661993)

Linus just talks like a sailor.

Arrh, I dun think so me shiverin' matey!

When I read that, I heard it in Mr. Krabbs voice. But Mr. Krabbs is a lot easier to work for than Linus, me boy. Linus is more like the Flying Dutchman, without the loveable part.

Re:hold on (1)

KozmoStevnNaut (630146) | about 4 months ago | (#46664425)

Mr. Krabbs is voiced by the same guy who played the Kurgan in Highlander. Awesome actor, BTW.

Re:hold on (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46712677)

hi hi captain!

Re:hold on (1)

Isaac Remuant (1891806) | about 4 months ago | (#46661977)

agreed. Full transparency and high expectations give us this type of things.

Re:hold on (1)

gweihir (88907) | about 4 months ago | (#46662327)

This is actually pretty big. Don't try to mislead people.

Re:hold on (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719331)

The only way this is big is in a positive way -- we have a leader who stands up for what's right and good instead of pussyfooting around.

harmless (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661343)

seemed like a harmless pep talk move along

Someone has to be in charge (4, Interesting)

tomhath (637240) | about 4 months ago | (#46661347)

his complaint about systemd has been widely echoed in the Linux world, with prominent contributors like Ingo Molnar, slamming the “excessively passive/aggressive” attitude of the project’s maintainers.

If you ignore requests you piss people off. Sounds like banning the guy was the right thing to do.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0, Flamebait)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46661763)

Ah come on. He really didn't "Ban the guy" he said he wouldn't accept any patches from him and merge them into the kernel. Torvalds is routinely rough with his contributors. As I figure it, this guy doesn't have enough devotion to satisfy Torvalds, maybe he has a REAL LIFE or something. Makes me glad I'm not a part of *that* or any other Torvalds run project..

Re:Someone has to be in charge (5, Informative)

phoenix_rizzen (256998) | about 4 months ago | (#46662057)

Kay's been a kernel developer for years, and has clashed with Linux many times in the past, all for the same reasons: Kay patches something, breaks a lot of things, says everyone else has to fix their code to work around the things he broke as it's "not his problem". Linux has finally had enough of that attitude.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46662407)

True, but he didn't get "banned" forever, just until he steps up his game. He may or may not step up. I'm guessing not.

But either way, Torvalds is not somebody I would like working for. I find some of his antics and language unacceptable and unnecessary. You can say things like this without the four letter words and without poking folks in the eyes in full public view. This warranted a private "I'm going to ban you if..." E-mail, not cursing on a public E-mail list. No need to go the public shaming route here, but Torvalds does that pretty quickly. It's his style and seems to work for him, but I'm sure there is a large group of people who won't work for him because of it.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (4, Insightful)

phoenix_rizzen (256998) | about 4 months ago | (#46662491)

Except that after years of polite "you need to fix this" requests and no follow-up from Kay ... what do you consider the appropriate response? This isn't the first time Linus has called him out. But it's the final time; the time that broke the proverbial camel's back.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (3, Interesting)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46662819)

You Ban him, but you don't need to vent and throw mud at him in the process. There is no need to publicly shame someone, just stop pulling patches from him and/or assign somebody else to fix it. Torvolds lacks class when he does stuff like this.

Look, I don't have a dog in this hunt, I don't do kernel development or work with Torvolds, and I don't want his job. Torvolds can do what he wants with his project and treat his developers how he wants. Apparently this behavior works for him well enough to keep the project going. I just don't think his approach is the best. But, in the long run, my opinion doesn't matter. I'm sure Torvolds doesn't care what I think and he's made it clear to others in the past he doesn't plan to change. IMHO It's a shame that he runs off potential developers by doing stuff like this, but I don't suppose he sees it that way.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663173)

Torvolds lacks class when he does stuff like this.

If you're going to throw mud at him, you could at least get his name right. It's Torvalds. Also, you're wrong.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

CurryCamel (2265886) | about 4 months ago | (#46663223)

You really cannot accuse someone for lacking class, and then consistently spell their name worng :)
Not that your accusation may lack substance, but still..

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46663461)

Apologies to Linus Torvalds.... I'm having typing issues today apparently, shame because I'm working documentation duty too. But it is Friday!

Re:Someone has to be in charge (2)

tibit (1762298) | about 4 months ago | (#46663455)

Sometimes there is in fact a need for public shaming, I think. Kay asked for it, Kay got it delivered. It's as simple as that. Doing it in private would be a disservice to everyone. It's a developer community, there's no point for keeping this sort of thing private. It goes against the very grain of things, I think.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46663867)

But can we do it without the expletives or putting somebody into the public stocks in the town square? Reading the whole thread, what seems to be going on is Kay was simply not responding. It wasn't like Kay was out there being actively disruptive or pushing code into the kernel behind Torvalds' back. Linus just wanted something fixed in Kay's past contribution and was frustrated that he wasn't getting the fix fast enough.

I don't think that this requires public shaming, in fact IMHO this is more likely to actually delay the arrival of any fix as Kay is likely Torvalds's best bet for getting a fix. There is a non-zero chance that Kay will just tell Torvalds to shove off and leave him to fend for himself, which means somebody else will have to come up the learning curve and get the problem fixed. That might be the best choice in the long run, but something tells me that it isn't, that Linus just shot himself in the foot. But that's just the perspective from some uninvolved observer.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 4 months ago | (#46664049)

Ignoring someone's repeated attempts to unfuck something is a kind of response in its own way.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46664357)

Ignoring someone's repeated attempts to unfuck something is a kind of response in its own way.

Sure it can a response. But what information is it conveying? Hard to know unless you can get a response from Kay..

There are LOTS of reasons for not responding that have NOTHING to do with the project. Developers have lives, stuff happens, stuff that is WAY more important than some Torvalds run project. Torvalds gets paid to do this Kernel thing, most developers are not so lucky. I have no clue what Kay's situation is, but there just *might* be good reasons he's not responding.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

poetmatt (793785) | about 4 months ago | (#46664571)

No, it's not hard to know.

It's a literal "Fuck you", just without using words.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46664639)

LOL... I suppose you can think that if you want.. I guess I won't be working for you or Linus..

Have a good weekend...

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

r.freeman (2944629) | about 4 months ago | (#46664945)

You are so wrong. Most developers ARE paid. So is Kay (by Redhat). It's not that he said he will fix it tomorrow or after weekend, it's that he told everyone to go fuck themselves because his little project systgemd is more important then 10 year old kernel project. And Linus said that nope, he has to clean up his mess. Though Linus used a man's words and Kay not, which has nothing to do with merritum.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46683295)

I have not questioned Torvalds' decision to stop accepting Kay's contributions, only his method of doing so. It could of and should of been a lot less abrasive and still been effective. Torvalds got frustrated, vented in public and comes across as brutish. Such behavior is unnecessary.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (2)

sirsnork (530512) | about 4 months ago | (#46666143)

Kay is paid by Redhat to develop systemd and interact with the kernel developers.

He's be doing the same thing for years and continues to develop code that breaks otherwise working systems, he then refuses to fix his broken code, claiming everyone else has the broken code, and they should fix theirs. Forgetting that all their code was working flawlessly until his patch came along

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46681685)

if code in one place can be broken by changing code somewhere else then the original code was broken already, it just wasnt showing it.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 4 months ago | (#46677311)

Look if you can't stand for people to treat you the way you deserve to be treated, then change the way you behave.

Kay is a dick, so Linus reacts as such.

I'm not a fan of Linux or Linus in particular, but I've never heard of an incident where he blew up on someone who didn't deserve it.

He seems to be fully capable of rational, polite conversation ... unless you're an asswipe, in which case, he'll treat you like one.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46666403)

I disagree. It was justified and more importantly, it made it crystal clear that behavior of this sort cannot and will not be tolerated.

Everyone who codes introduces defects; it's unavoidable. But it's completely unacceptable when someone doesn't own up to it and try to fix the problem.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (2)

the_B0fh (208483) | about 4 months ago | (#46667197)

You did follow the rest of the story, where it is stated that Kay repeatedly fucks over other people by making unilateral changes, and then telling others he won't fix his crap and other people need to fix their stuff?

Keyword: repeatedly.

In other words, Kay is an asshole.

Why are you defending him?

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46683081)

You apparently missed what I said. My position has been about Torvalds and his lack of people skills and the negative effect these episodes have on the Kernel Development project. This event with Kay is just another example of Torvalds being unnecessarily abrasive, a trait that Torvalds prides himself in and jokes about. So I'm not defending Kay or even questioning Torvalds' decision, I'm rolling my eyes and chalking up another brutish public E-mail from Torvalds because he lost his cool again.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46664561)

So the only thing you're bitching about is: his wording.

You can only call the baby ugly so many different ways that are polite before it is what it is.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668741)

"Publicly shaming" is helpful. It gives other developers the message that "if you break things and *refuse* to fix them, people will get pissed at you".

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

strikethree (811449) | about 4 months ago | (#46702129)

There is no need to publicly shame someone, just stop pulling patches from him and/or assign somebody else to fix it. Torvolds lacks class when he does stuff like this.

Fuck class. This is not an aristocratic society full of political correctness and snobbery. This is people doing real work and getting things done. "Class" only reduces the effectiveness.

In short, if you are afraid of knives, get out of the kitchen.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46703921)

In short, if you are afraid of knives, get out of the kitchen.

Which, in this case, I do already. Not that I'm afraid of Torvalds, but that I have better and more rewarding things to do with my time that deal with his temperament. But I've said all this before.

Care to go around the bush again? Personally I don't. Full Stop for me.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719383)

Why not? You might not think its necessary, but why not do it? I'm sick of politeness for politeness' sake. People who act like idiots in public and cause other people problems and refuse to do anything to fix it deserve to be called out.

You know what happens if you do something wrong in real life? You go to court. You know what courts are? Public. There's a reason we do it that way. The public should know if things are being handled properly or not. Keeping it all private is how dishonest people act. Public is where these reprimands belong.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46767845)

I think it is a cultural thing. Whenever the interned explodes with "Linus is being a huge A-hole to someone" I always think it's rather tame. Americans are a lot more polite han Europeans. To a european the americans often sound like hypocrites because of this, the other way 'round the europeans sound like a-holes to americans.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662615)

I'm sure there is a large group of people who won't work for him because of it.

Aw, are the fluffy Care Bears upset?

Re:Someone has to be in charge (3, Insightful)

coats (1068) | about 4 months ago | (#46662707)

I *would* really like working for someone like Linus -- really sharp, really on-the-ball, really high expectations, really willing to listen to well-though-out "it might be better to..." (see his response to Ted T'so later in this thread).

Much better than working for some bureaucrat or politician who *thinks* he knows what he is doing.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (-1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46662915)

Yea, but if you mess up and do something he declares "STUPID", it's off to the public stocks for you in a flurry of expletives. IMHO Stuff like that just lacks class and reflects badly on him.

But if *you* want to work for him, I encourage you to dig in. There are worse projects... Like subversion.... (That's a joke, in case you don't Git it)

Re:Someone has to be in charge (4, Informative)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | about 4 months ago | (#46663193)

> Yea, but if you mess up and do something he declares "STUPID"

And if HE messes up he calls it moronic.

http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/... [iu.edu]

Yeah, what Andrew said. My suggestion of per-task or per-cred is
obviously moronic in comparison.

Linus "hangs head in shame" Torvalds

And Linus isn't afraid to admit something is complex.

http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/... [iu.edu]

Oh, Christ, I see what you are talking about.

That interface is all kinds of crazy.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (3, Insightful)

tibit (1762298) | about 4 months ago | (#46663491)

Yea, but if you mess up and do something he declares "STUPID", it's off to the public stocks for you in a flurry of expletives. IMHO Stuff like that just lacks class and reflects badly on him.

On the contrary, I think this doesn't reflect badly on him. Kay has been pushing it for ages, and there was nothing else to be done. It's in everyone's best interest that the public is warned a) not to try such tricks, b) to stay away from Kay until he improves his behavior. Remember, Linux kernel is developed in the open. Public scorn is to be expected. You don't like it, maintain your own fork, that's what git is for, you know.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46664007)

Yea, but if you mess up and do something he declares "STUPID", it's off to the public stocks for you in a flurry of expletives. IMHO Stuff like that just lacks class and reflects badly on him.

On the contrary, I think this doesn't reflect badly on him. Kay has been pushing it for ages, and there was nothing else to be done. It's in everyone's best interest that the public is warned a) not to try such tricks, b) to stay away from Kay until he improves his behavior. Remember, Linux kernel is developed in the open. Public scorn is to be expected. You don't like it, maintain your own fork, that's what git is for, you know.

Look, this may have been in the best interest of the project, and it is certainly with the privilege of Torvalds to stop taking code from Kay but my complaint is about the way he chooses to vent. Torvalds prides himself in being an abrupt, no nonsense dictator. But IMHO he is unnecessarily abrasive, self righteous and borderline abusive, especially when he gets frustrated. Kay may have had a "ban" coming, but there are ways to do this without resorting to a public ridicule of somebody who has contributed value to your project in the past. No need to dig out the flame thrower, just calmly ask for somebody else to start looking at a fix, or start a discussion about removing Kay's code.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (2)

r.freeman (2944629) | about 4 months ago | (#46664961)

Can you quit being a sissy now? Linus is "abbrasive", personally I will take this over the weasel-talk, political correctness and all other kinds of bullshit. It's sort of a subjective preferences question, if you're really a wuss then don't talk to Torvalds - solved.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46683219)

IMHO, there are many developers out there that decide, like me, not to get involved with Torvalds for this reason. Which I believe detracts from the various projects he is part of. Which is the essence of my critique. For those who still choose to work with him, I wish them luck.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

the_B0fh (208483) | about 4 months ago | (#46667207)

You've been told that Kay is an asshole since forever, and have been doing the same fucked up shit since forever, and you keep defending him.

Why?

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46683019)

Haven't defended Kay at all actually. All I've been saying is Torvalds has a history of inappropriate behavior (IMHO) and I've heard him justify his abrupt behavior and his unwillingness to consider changing. He gets tolerated because he's good technically, but I feel that his lack of people skills are a detriment to the Kernel project overall. Your mileage may vary.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46664239)

Except this was years of Kay messing up and telling other people it's their problem to work around what he wants. His behavior is stupid and Linus should have stopped accepting patches from him years ago. Also, this is an open source project so communication is going to be out in the open. You should try reading the bug report, it was bad enough for this particular issue, now imagine Kay doing this for years. Kay's attitude deserves the response he got.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719393)

Good. Then you know where you stand.

You'd rather not know and just "hope" your manager liked your work?

I like being told when I've screwed up or succeeded explicitly. If you can't handle honesty, ask yourself why not.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46719647)

The most effective managers praise liberally and do it in public as often as possible. Effective managers also rebuke as little as possible and try to do that in private.

They also demonstrate professional behavior and language as much as possible, but that's more about setting the example than managing folks.

I prefer to work for the most effective managers myself, especially as a volunteer. You do what you want.

Linux inquisitor general (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662753)

Torvalds is not somebody I would like working for.

But he's just the guy I want to defend the purity of the source and crush heresy anywhere is shows its beady little eyes.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 4 months ago | (#46663999)

Sometimes the only way to get through to somebody is to publicly yell at them. If I've talked to you civilly in private a dozen times and you pull the same shit a 13th time, I would lose it, too.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1, Interesting)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46664219)

Sometimes the only way to get through to somebody is to publicly yell at them. If I've talked to you civilly in private a dozen times and you pull the same shit a 13th time, I would lose it, too.

I don't see any reason to publicly shame anybody on purpose, especially in a situation where that someone is a volunteer who is not responding quick enough for you.

Torvalds prides himself in being abrupt, no nonsense and a dictator. IMHO A position he uses to self righteously justify behavior that I find unnecessarily abrasive and borderline abusive. You can be a no nonsense dictator and still not need to publicly shame someone you are frustrated with.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (2)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 4 months ago | (#46664697)

Is he actually a volunteer? I thought he was a Red Hat employee.

Benevolent Dictator For Life, yes. After a certain point, the health of the product overrules the feelings of a programmer who is perpetually breaking the build.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46664943)

Is he actually a volunteer? I thought he was a Red Hat employee.

Perhaps he is (or at this point WAS) in which case Torvalds should take it up with Red Hat directly.

Benevolent Dictator For Life, yes. After a certain point, the health of the product overrules the feelings of a programmer who is perpetually breaking the build.

My issue with Torvalds is not about his choice, but his method. IMHO, it would be better if Linus would vent his frustrations more diplomatically. I believe he is driving off a lot of help who just don't want to deal with him and the various projects he controls are worse off for it.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 4 months ago | (#46677329)

Of course you don't, because you're afraid that it'll be you.

You're a sissy. Grow up. If you fuck up, take it like an adult.

You simply aren't going to find a group of people of Linus's caliber that agree with you, because people like you are loathed by people like him. You want to sit around the camp fire and talk about how awesome the world is and how great it is to be nice to everybody all the while accomplishing exactly dick.

People like you, that whine about things like this are invariable the people who can't do this and want to pretend you can ... but don't want to be called on it.

Crawl back in your hole until you grow up enough to deal with the fact THATS HE DESERVES IT.

Its fucking words for god sake, stop being such a pussy.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (3, Insightful)

thegarbz (1787294) | about 4 months ago | (#46667157)

But either way, Torvalds is not somebody I would like working for. I find some of his antics and language unacceptable and unnecessary. You can say things like this without the four letter words and without poking folks in the eyes in full public view.

Having worked for someone who discretely and privately and calmly attempts to diffuse all situations I disagree. Some people just need to be told off in a stern and very overt way. I have witnessed passive managers tell people over and over again about their grievances only to have them come back and do the same thing over and over again because they believe the manager is a pushover.

You want to look at Linus's language? Follow him on Google+ and see that most of the time he's actually quite a calm collected and nice guy who doesn't run off his mouth at every situation. We only hear about extreme cases here on Slashdot. Personally I think Kay is lucky at the response he got. He could be working for a different boss who throws chairs.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46683165)

I don't disagree, there comes a time, but it's sooner rather than later. This may have been most justified and I've NEVER questioned Torvalds' technical choice of refusing to merge any more code from Kay. But there is a professional way to handle such issues that don't involve a public flogging or loosing one's cool as Torvalds is prone to do. You can be firm and decisive without going out of your way to offend somebody.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | about 4 months ago | (#46692027)

You can. And if you read the mailing list he has in the past. This was just the last straw and Kay had a long history of that kind of stuff.

As for public flogging, if someone working in my team had a specific issue that affected all other team members then my boss would likely tell everyone in the team. In an open community it's hard to keep that kind of stuff private. Private flogging is just sharing info with the team. The mailing list is the common way to communicate with all members in an open source community.

Not doing it invites politics and corruption. "Hey I've got this code, can you please merge it for me my computer is ...errr having issues."

I'm not saying people need to be arseholes but if you look into the history of it, face to face they may have ended up in the equivalent of an office shouting match.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

the_B0fh (208483) | about 4 months ago | (#46667183)

some people are just pure assholes. You can only be nice and polite to them for so long.

You do understand that, right?

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 4 months ago | (#46683099)

Exactly, but that's why I don't work for guys like Torvalds, either professionally or on open source projects. I got better things to do.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719353)

Why do fixes need to happen in private when the behaviour happened in public? You act like a dick in private, you get reprimanded in private.

This guy ignored public bug fix requests and very publicly denounced Linus' view on the issue.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662073)

One can have a real life, and a slow commit schedule and still iteratively improve on the project. The accusation is that the commits are fire and forget, and never fixed. That's not having a life, that's being lazy, or possibly intentionally troublesome. Given that Red Hat's business model seems to be selling service contracts, they don't have any real investment in doing it right the first time, or fixing anything that a customer isn't (yet) complaining about.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about 4 months ago | (#46662147)

He feels passionate about it and doesn't mind telling people how he feels. I don't mind working with these kinds of people IF they are competent which Linus certainly is. I read further into the thread and they set about dealing with the problem on the list pretty straightforward and businesslike, that one post was just steam being let off I think. Almost any project has some sort of strife involved.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (1)

Samizdata (1093963) | about 4 months ago | (#46670673)

Just a note here. If Linux WASN'T a passionate kind of guy that likes action over words, there wouldn't be a Linux to be discussing.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662635)

If you don't have enough "devotion" to fix crippling bugs in your code, you probably shouldn't be a developer.

This whole, "He probably had a REAL LIFE he was living instead!" thinking is bullshit.

Re:Someone has to be in charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663097)

It's the best news I've had all year. Way to go, Linus!

really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661349)

You are telling me that Linus was doing it right, and the other person was doing it wrong??

Shocker.

Re:really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661537)

Linus is not right because he is the BDFL. He is right because he makes sure he's got his facts straight before he sends an email that he knows that everyone will read. Linus is doing a far better job as the maintainer of Linux than anyone else would, even if you take his insults into account.

If I was in charge, I wouldn't have waited years to ban him. I would have warned him the first time and thrown him out the second time.

Re:really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661921)

Is that you, Theo?

Re:really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662821)

No, it's me: Anonymous Coward. Wait... why am I conversing with myself?

Re:really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662855)

Theo is generally very good to the OpenBSD devs. His vitriol is 99% of the time aimed at idiots outside the camp who have screwed the pooch in some manner, been selfish with documentation, etc. Theo, like Linus has a very tough job. I doubt anyone on this forum -- myself included -- could step up and do a better job. Being a leader of a group of developers is like herding cats. We all know this, yet we knock these guys. Who cares if they spout off at the mouth when they see something that angers them. They see idiotic crap day in and day out. I know I do.

So ?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661353)

Linus just says "fix your code, regression bugs are NOT acceptable". Seems he got suspected after *years* of doing this.

If this wasn't OSS or Linus, we wouldn't even hear about it. Someone would just get fired.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Re:So ?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661601)

Oh noes... they suspected him?

Wait... what? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661377)

Isn't this the same backwards logic schools use when disciplining students?

"For failing to do your homework, we won't let you do homework!! HA! That'll learn' ya!"

Re:Wait... what? (1)

DeTech (2589785) | about 4 months ago | (#46661419)

Linus seems more perturbed about the lack of accountability. Own your mistakes, Then fix them. If you can't, then ask for help.

Re:Wait... what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661439)

No, it's not the same. Any other questions?

Re:Wait... what? (2)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | about 4 months ago | (#46661451)

Not quite. From TFE:

Greg - just for your information, I will *not* be merging any code from Kay into the kernel until this constant pattern is fixed.

More like "Correct your previous assignments until you can turn in more assignments."

Re:Wait... what? (1)

armanox (826486) | about 4 months ago | (#46661465)

No - it's saying since you did your project wrong, we aren't changing how ours works so that you don't have to correct yours.

No? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662445)

Kay is banned from commiting to the mainline Linux Kernel.
The bug we are talking about is in the systemd codebase.
RTFA please.

Re:Wait... what? (1)

slashdot_commentator (444053) | about 4 months ago | (#46675269)

While on the surface, it may seem like this, the implications are much more serious (for Key Siever).

Linus is the final word in what gets incorporated into the linux kernel. If you can't submit updates to the kernel, you cease to exist in the kernel developer community. Siever is the lead developer for systemd. If systemd needs a kernel modification, and it can't get it approved, that whole project sits dead in the water, until some competing project replaces it. Siever is paid for his development work by Red Hat; we'll see for how much longer.

Misleading title... (5, Informative)

egarland (120202) | about 4 months ago | (#46661391)

"I'm not accepting any patches until you fix your bugs" is hardly suspending someone, it's re-focusing them. This is an important part in any software project, and Linus is doing it well here. There's no ambiguity or hyperbole, just straightforward communication identifying issues and prompting action to correct them.

"Start fixing your shit" isn't even remotely the same thing as "stop doing things".

Re:Misleading title... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661477)

I never thought I'd see the day when Slashdot would post such blatant and sensationalist anti-Linux FUD. What planet is this? How did I get here?

Re:Misleading title... (-1, Offtopic)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about 4 months ago | (#46661619)

I never thought I'd see the day when Slashdot would post such blatant and sensationalist anti-Linux FUD. What planet is this? How did I get here?

Three letter answer: NSA.

Re:Misleading title... (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46665507)

You left out a letter:

C-A-S-H.

Re:Misleading title... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668725)

zontar's not mentally stable or competent and admits it http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] so don't waste your time arguiing with the nutjob zontar the mindless (apt name at least due to his delicate condition, haha): he can't digest or understand logic, or reason.

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeler (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46756873)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Re:Misleading title... (1)

Nimey (114278) | about 4 months ago | (#46661739)

You must be new here. It's posted blatant and sensationalist FUD many times before, just not necessarily Linux-oriented.

Re:Misleading title... (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 4 months ago | (#46664097)

DICE.

cf. sig \/

Re:Misleading title... (1)

Nimey (114278) | about 4 months ago | (#46664503)

Pffffft. It's not even Dice, this place was like that before Dice.

Re:Misleading title... (2)

evilviper (135110) | about 4 months ago | (#46661727)

"I'm not accepting any patches until you fix your bugs" is hardly suspending someone,

Only because that's an inaccurate misquote. Let's try the real thing:

"I will *not* be merging any code from Kay into the kernel until this constant pattern is fixed. This has been going on for *years*, and doesn't seem to be getting any better."

That's not a "fix this bug first" message... That's a much more general and sweeping "you suck, so you're fired," message.

Of course both Kay and Linus reserve the right to change their minds and play nice together in the near future, but that doesn't sound likely.

Re:Misleading title... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46664313)

And the way to fix the pattern is to fix your code instead of insisting everyone change their code to accommodate the problem he created. Especially when the rest of the system was working fine for decades before his most recent change. Also, if you read the bug report, Kay has decided that his idea of a fundamental method of operating is the new standard. If everyone copied his idea the entire system would be a big growing clusterfuck. Once he fixes his own problem his patches will be accepted again.

Re:Misleading title... (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 4 months ago | (#46665543)

"I'm not accepting any patches until you fix your bugs" is hardly suspending someone,

Only because that's an inaccurate misquote. Let's try the real thing:

"I will *not* be merging any code from Kay into the kernel until this constant pattern is fixed. This has been going on for *years*, and doesn't seem to be getting any better."

That's not a "fix this bug first" message... That's a much more general and sweeping "you suck, so you're fired," message.

It's nothing of the sort. It's a "you keep doing things in this very wrong fashion and breaking other people's stuff, and I'm not accepting anything else from you until you straighten up and fly right" message.

Re:Misleading title... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668713)

zontar's not mentally stable or competent and admits it http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] so don't waste your time arguiing with the nutjob zontar the mindless (apt name at least due to his delicate condition, haha): he can't digest or understand logic, or reason.

Zontar = sockpuppeteer & lying libeler (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46756767)

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com] & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org] before you)

... apk

Re:Misleading title... (1)

anyGould (1295481) | about 4 months ago | (#46671419)

That's not a "fix this bug first" message... That's a much more general and sweeping "you suck, so you're fired," message.

Bit of both, I'd say. There's the obvious layer of "I'm tired of other people having to patch your crap, so I'm not taking more of your code until you show that you're willing to do your own homework".

And then there's the subtext of "Redhat isn't likely to keep paying you to develop if none of your code ever sees daylight again. So, if you're enjoying your cushy open source job you might want to get your shit together."

And I'll add my voice to the "I will happily work for a boss who tells me when I fucked up *and* when he fucked up, over a boss who whitewashes everything" club. Life's too short for three hour warm-fuzzy meetings.

Re:Misleading title... (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | about 4 months ago | (#46719413)

You don't understand the word "until" ??

Somebody ban Lennart please (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46667193)

Whether it's called "banning" or "refocussing" isn't too important.

Whatever one wishes to call it, if someone would do it to Lennart, an extremely large number of long-suffering users of systemd and pulseaudio would be eternally grateful. Like Kay, he's "My way or no way", and the result is pure pain for millions of people.

When valuable people can't work together... (-1)

davidwr (791652) | about 4 months ago | (#46661403)

... everyone suffers.

A general word to any leader who prevents a highly-valued contributor from contributing: If enough influential downstream users don't like this, you may not have the political capital to do this the next time you think you need to do the same thing.

This is not a comment on this specific situation - I am way too ignorant to even begin to know if Linus or Sievers has the higher moral ground or for that matter if either of them have the higher moral ground. It's just a general warning that this kind of action may require spending "political capital," and political capital can run out quickly if it is not continually re-earned.

Re:When valuable people can't work together... (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661533)

so, basically this is all about you.

So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661559)

So you didn't read the article and are pontificating just for the hell of it.
This comment is very valuable.

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661773)

I give Linux ~20-30 years before it becomes a Failed OS

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662173)

Linux and fail in one sentence.. merging.. merging failed. :> No, seriously, what should replace Linux in this little infrastructure here? heh, later

Re:So... (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 4 months ago | (#46664135)

I'd say that being as good as it has for 35+ years (including your projected 20) excludes it from being called "failed" at all.

The world of computing is always moving.

Re:So... (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 4 months ago | (#46677351)

Linux is no where near 35 years old. Try again fanboy.

Re:So... (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 4 months ago | (#46677623)

35+ years (including your projected 20)

2014 - 1991 = 23 (let's not call it "good" for the first five years, so say 18)
22 + 20 = 38

Learn to read.

Re:So... (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 4 months ago | (#46677633)

*18 + 20 = 38

Muphry's Law [wikipedia.org]

oo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46668463)

i give windows infinity to fix their security

Re:When valuable people can't work together... (1)

gweihir (88907) | about 4 months ago | (#46662363)

The people on one side of this are valuable. The ones of the other side are a problem, i.e. have negative value. It is pretty obvious which side is which.

Re:When valuable people can't work together... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46664431)

Read the bug report. It's obvious that Kay has decided that the problem he created is someone else's problem to fix because his program works the way he wants it to. Even if it is a relatively easy fix and that he is going against de facto standard API behavior in a way that is allowing his program to undermine the core of the system. If everyone wrote like this, Linux would be riddled with systems that won't boot and/or potentially have serious security flaws. It may not be Kay's fault entirely though. Being a paid developer for RedHat he may be instructed to write things a certain way or to spend a certain amount of time on a project. But, his completely unapologetic nature and insistence that someone else fix it while acknowledging that what he did isn't how it should be, is a frustrating situation for everyone else involved. And in this case, it's an easy fix (so someone will fix it for him); I don't see how his employer could want things this way.

Doesn't really surprise me. (1)

Kremmy (793693) | about 4 months ago | (#46661409)

Maybe people should be paying attention to the sources of the crap they're trying to wedge into our stable systems.

Inaccurate summary (4, Informative)

gwstuff (2067112) | about 4 months ago | (#46661435)

First the idea of "Suspending" a kernel developer is inane. Kernel developers don't work for Linus. Anyone can fork the kernel and work on his own version of it. Furthermore, Kay can write code that other people audit, modify and submit further.

Secondly, it's not an 'indefinite, unconditional ban' as suggested by the summary. Here's the specific line from Linus' email:

Greg - just for your information, I will *not* be merging any code
from Kay into the kernel until this constant pattern is fixed.

In other words he might start accepting patches from him if he changed his style of operating.

Re:Inaccurate summary (1)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | about 4 months ago | (#46661551)

Anyone can fork the kernel and work on his own version of it

Yes, only hardly anyone ever does it with projects as massive as the Linux Kernel. Just look at how many years it took for X.org to split from X11 - or heck, even the many half-assed and failed attempts at forking off Slashdot over the Beta issue.

It takes a lot of fustration building up for many years in many talented and dedicated people to pull off a big fork successfully.

Re:Inaccurate summary (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46661679)

The kernel was unofficially forked by RedHat and others in the 2.4 era, because "Linus doesn't scale". That lead the whole Bitkeeper/Git saga and an big reform of Linux development procedures. It was a very serious issue, if Linus didn't get his shit together they were ready to maintain the kernel through some other institution.

Re:Inaccurate summary (1)

Bengie (1121981) | about 4 months ago | (#46661859)

Linus owns the trademark to Linux, so RedHat could not claim to be Linux if Linus decided.

Re:Inaccurate summary (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662109)

Linus had already given out "perpetual" trademark licenses to pretty much everyone, so that couldn't happen.

Re:Inaccurate summary (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662203)

Has Linus defended the trademark? If he hasn't then the trademark is null and void and Linus can go fuck himself.

Re:Inaccurate summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46662213)

Maybe they'll just start calling it "the GNU/Linux system". ;-)

Re:Inaccurate summary (2)

BasilBrush (643681) | about 4 months ago | (#46662263)

Yes, only hardly anyone ever does it with projects as massive as the Linux Kernel.

Massive ... Kernel

Seems like a contradiction.

or heck, even the many half-assed and failed attempts at forking off Slashdot over the Beta issue.

http://soylentnews.org/ [soylentnews.org] seems to be working just fine. Neither half-assed, nor failed. Fewer posters, for sure. But a far more friendly vibe than today's Slashdot.

Re:Inaccurate summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663435)

http://soylentnews.org/ [soylentnews.org] seems to be working just fine. Neither half-assed, nor failed. Fewer posters, for sure. But a far more friendly vibe than today's Slashdot.

Don't worry, we're fixing that.

- The Trolls

Re:Inaccurate summary (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 4 months ago | (#46664191)

I was about to post that latter bit, then wondered if he wasn't refering to slashdot.jp or that one Spanish-language one...which as far as I'm aware are both still operating.

Hmm.

Re:Inaccurate summary (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | about 4 months ago | (#46667171)

Massive ... Kernel

Seems like a contradiction.

Sure it is, but that's because of the sheer amount of stuff which is loaded in a modular fashion. Just try compiling every option in the kernel and see what kind of a kernel size you end up with (if it even works). Then also take into account the different architectures the kernel supports and you'll see while what ships and loads at boot time may be rather sleek, the project itself is indeed massive.

Re:Inaccurate summary (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 4 months ago | (#46677361)

Yes, the kernel is millions of lines of code, its fucking massive by all known standards of kernels at this point.

If soylentnews is working so great, why do you people keep posting the link on slashdot? Whats that? Its got a friendly but utterly vacant vibe, well good for you.

You just have different definitions for words than ... well pretty much the rest of the english speaking world.

Re:Inaccurate summary (1)

BasilBrush (643681) | about 4 months ago | (#46677483)

If soylentnews is working so great, why do you people keep posting the link on slashdot?

You people? What is this, apartheid?

I was no big enthusiast for Soylent news. I wondered over there just occasionally, when I'd run out of interesting stuff on slashdot. And then there was a comment I wanted to make so I finally signed up. I linked to it because you claimed all such alternatives had failed. And you were wrong. No other reason. AFAIR it was the first time I ever mentioned it, and it's not in my sig. I'm not pushing the site.

Rather it seems like you are the one that's being a fanboy for one site over another.

Re:Inaccurate summary (2)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 4 months ago | (#46661663)

First the idea of "Suspending" a kernel developer is inane.

Of course. It just means that Red Hat got a ... red card?

Developer "suspended"? (1)

sanvila (659083) | about 4 months ago | (#46661485)

This is not "your commit privileges are revoked".

They are using git, so this is "I'm not pulling changes from you" instead.

Way to feed the trolls with a poor summary (5, Informative)

rs1n (1867908) | about 4 months ago | (#46661517)

Kay was not banned. Linus simply said he would not merge anything from Kay [b]until[/b] he got his act together.

Greg - just for your information, I will *not* be merging any code from Kay into the kernel until this constant pattern is fixed.

Re:Way to feed the trolls with a poor summary (1)

DeTech (2589785) | about 4 months ago | (#46661581)

exactly.
"No Mo' Shit, 'till u fix Yo Shit."

Re:Way to feed the trolls with a poor summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#46663975)

If that were really the case we would go back to using something/anything else but linux. I sick and tired of the linux kernel panicking or hanging. Hardware running openindiana handles whatever I dump on it, redhat/opensuse/ubuntu/debian/some other sucky linux kernel on **EXACTLY** the same hardware rarely makes it through the day without a power cycle to clear the problem. So my answer to people who push drugs^h^h^h^hlinux is No Mo' Shit, 'till u fix Yo Shit.

Re:Way to feed the trolls with a poor summary (1)

Kjella (173770) | about 4 months ago | (#46662103)

What's trolling about it? He is banned right now, that the ban may or may not be lifted at some point in the future doesn't change that. Particularly since we're talking about a deep behavioral change from a recurring pattern of behavior at some unspecified time in the future, not whether or not his next patch breaks anything. That none of his code will be merged means he's dead to the project, sure he can write code on his own but it's like a journalist who'll never get their article printed. If your patches aren't accepted by Linus, you're not in Linux. You may be in some fork or branch or distro kernel but you're a third party accessory. It is extremely rare even for Linus to take the man and not the ball (code) and declare a blanket ban on somone's code, so I guess he was already extremely pissed at the guy's attitude and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

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