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GNU Mailman 3 Enters Beta

Unknown Lamer posted about 3 months ago | from the duke-nukem-forever dept.

GNU is Not Unix 57

GNU Mailman, likely the most popular mailing list manager in use today, has finally announced the release of a beta for version 3. GNU Mailman 3.0 is a major rewrite, features include a central server with a REST API replacing the dozen or two programs that manipulated Mailman data directly, a shiny new web fron end (Postorius), and a new archiver (HyperKitty). Fedora is already using the new archiver and interface, which is quite a bit more modern looking than Mailman 2.x's interface (wayback machine link for posterity). Individual message thread views are greatly improved, and you can even reply from the web by logging in with your list credentials. If you'd like to try it out, see the announcement message.

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57 comments

Requires Javascript. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46866115)

Not for me.

Re:Requires Javascript. (2, Insightful)

namgge (777284) | about 3 months ago | (#46866177)

It seems to work fine with JavaScript disabled. In fact, in my opinion it's better that way because it doesn't have the animated cr*p that the JavaScript-kiddies think is so kewl but is really rather pointless and distracting.

Re:Requires Javascript. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46866349)

You sound old.

Re:Requires Javascript. (5, Funny)

JustOK (667959) | about 2 months ago | (#46866411)

He's just grumpy cause he had to stop his push mower to yell at the kids.

Re:Requires Javascript. (2)

beefoot (2250164) | about 2 months ago | (#46866979)

That reminds me of the blink html tag in the old days. Yes, I'm getting old.

Re:Requires Javascript. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46870055)

That reminds me of the blink html tag in the old days. Yes, I'm getting old.

remember the marquee tag?
(oh, the joys of teaching those darn IE users the real meaning of pain, where every word on the screen marquee'd in alternating directions..)

Re:Requires Javascript. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46866179)

Not to mention computer.

Can't wait for paper book support in version 4.

Re:Requires Javascript. (1)

kthreadd (1558445) | about 3 months ago | (#46866181)

It seems to work just fine without it as far as I can tell. Some features may require JavaScript, but the overall experience should work without it.

Re:Requires Javascript. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46866215)

> It seems to work just fine without it as far as I can tell

No, it doesn't (thread links below article just show a twirling thingie waiting for the XMLHTTPRequest to do its thing). I'd provide you with a link, but the server is down.

Reading the page code, it's just intended that way. I don't know whether it's built-in to Mailman or just the web designers going overboard.

Re:Requires Javascript. (1)

kthreadd (1558445) | about 3 months ago | (#46866265)

Oh, yes that appears to be the case. That's sad.

Re:Requires Javascript. (4, Insightful)

prefec2 (875483) | about 3 months ago | (#46866271)

JavaScript is not evil when used properly. True, it is one of the worst ever designed languages, but presently it is the only available DOM manipulation language included in all browsers.

Re:Requires Javascript. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46866453)

> JavaScript is not evil when used properly.

Javascript is not evil at all!

> True, it is one of the worst ever designed languages

I disagree on that too. I won't comment on my preferences, lest I start a language war (it's perhaps fun, but seriously off-topic).

My beef (I was the OP complaining) is that it seems a thorughly bad idea to let the browser run arbitrary code off the 'Net -- sandboxes and all. And with every page out there that *requires* Javascript to be on, the threshold is pushed a bit lower.

Besides, this kind of pages usually have some kind of non-standard, ad-hoc "protocol" between the JS frontend and the backend, thus being a nightmare for screen readers and other helpers for blind people. BIG FAIL.

I do welcome pages which do nice embellishments with Javascript; I do welcome experimental stuff which couldn't be done otherwise. But displaying a list in tabular form? Please.

Re:Requires Javascript. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46867113)

> JavaScript is not evil when used properly.

Javascript is not evil at all!

> True, it is one of the worst ever designed languages

I disagree on that too.

required (hilarious) read [usenix.org]

Postman rings twice (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | about 3 months ago | (#46866293)

Postman rings twice
His 'stache is right nice
Yet his chin's ever smooth
By suds & device
Burma Shave

but does it ... (4, Funny)

Chrisq (894406) | about 3 months ago | (#46866187)

but does it run on HURD?

Re:but does it ... (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 months ago | (#46868791)

I'd rather ask - is it an inbuilt feature within emacs?

3 clicks and a Server Error (1)

dolmen.fr (583400) | about 3 months ago | (#46866227)

I tried the Fedora installation and after 3 clicks I already a Server Error (HTTP 500) on this page: https://lists.stg.fedoraprojec... [fedoraproject.org]

(No, I won't post a ticket. I have more interesting things to do today)

Re:3 clicks and a Server Error (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46866587)

Typical lazy frenchmen.

And you wonder why your country can't accomplish anything in tech or opensource.

Re:3 clicks and a Server Error (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 months ago | (#46868805)

Hey, they produced Mandrake Linux

Re:3 clicks and a Server Error (1)

dolmen.fr (583400) | about 3 months ago | (#46878053)

You are probably already using software I produced.
This kind of reaction makes me think that the GNU Public Licence gives usage rights to too many dicks.

Most Popular? (1)

clickclickdrone (964164) | about 3 months ago | (#46866355)

GNU Mailman, likely the most popular mailing list manager in use today

Evidence?

Re:Most Popular? (1)

sg_oneill (159032) | about 3 months ago | (#46866371)

Evidence?

The lack of any credible competitors. Theres a few other open source mailing list managers, but really they are quite rare out in the wild.

Re:Most Popular? (1)

Bogtha (906264) | about 2 months ago | (#46866429)

MailChimp? Campaign Monitor? Google Groups?

It may be the most popular open-source mailing list manager, but that's not what was claimed.

Re:Most Popular? (2)

colfer (619105) | about 2 months ago | (#46867309)

MailChimp etc. are not mailing lists. They are one-way distribution lists. Mailman has to deal with replies to the group.

Re:Most Popular? (1)

jellomizer (103300) | about 2 months ago | (#46867323)

Yes, it is very common method. Popularity by limitation.
Being that every product/person is unique you can show that it is the best/most popular by pushing all of its features, and dropping out candidates with different features because they don't count.

For example Android is the top selling platform for mobile phones.
Apple is the top selling phone.
Both statements can be right. As Google gives android to many different phone makers, all are competing with Apple who sells more phone then any individual company. But combined they are a larger group.
Microsoft can chime in by adding all the PC's with Windows and Phones with Windows Mobile. They can pick and choose how far to go back to make them seem like they are the most dominate in the market.

Re:Most Popular? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46871045)

shut up faggot...learn what you are talking about before posting bullshit

Re:Most Popular? (1)

sg_oneill (159032) | about 3 months ago | (#46912887)

MailChimp? Campaign Monitor? Google Groups?

They are completely different types of software. Mailchimp/etc can't do what mailman does, and for that matter mailman would be a poor choice for what mailchimp does.

Mailman is a mail discussion list manager, not a spam platform.

Re:Most Popular? (1)

Poeli (573204) | about 2 months ago | (#46867317)

Sympa is quite good but used mostly in France.

Re:Most Popular? (1)

hawk (1151) | about 3 months ago | (#46875537)

Well, make up your mind; which is it? :)

hawk

Re:Most Popular? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46866425)

It's not hard to be the most popular version of a dying breed of software.

p.s. Didn't RSS completely remove the need for "quasi-legit" email spam lists?

Re:Most Popular? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46886849)

Tru, RSS is like taking back the web.

Postorius (1)

broknstrngz (1616893) | about 2 months ago | (#46866459)

Man, this thing is killer fast!

Re:Postorius (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46866539)

*slow clap*

more modern == less useful ? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46866477)

This needs to go back to the drawing board, at least as far as the mail archive functions are concerned. There is no practical way to easily browse threads by date or subject. That and the new layout has acres of wasted space.

V2 is far from perfect, but it is a much better start and they need to go back to it rather than proceed with the mistake they've made. Maybe under the hood is ok but the UI is not.

Re:more modern == less useful ? (1)

paskie (539112) | about 2 months ago | (#46866579)

I completely agree that the mail archives UI is awful. Mailman2 archives could use many improvements (nicer thread browsing including cross-month threads, _optional_ threads collapsing, web-form replies, fulltext search, ...) but I don't really follow the direction in which HyperKitty is going - views like https://lists.stg.fedoraprojec... [fedoraproject.org] are a complete mess; having a one-mail per line concise view had great value...

It's still beta, I'm not hopeless; I think HyperKitty could be made much more usable by a few simple UI tweaks (and hopefully things like comment voting are optional). Perhaps we will get / can make a "classic theme". :-)

Re:more modern == less useful ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46867469)

Its 201x, the decade where everything is written for tiny screens with ridiculouss amounts of white space and much less info packed into one large screen. Web 3.0 looks like it is targeted at 3rd graders just learning to read.

more mom == less anulsecks ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46866885)


 

REST API? (1)

Bogtha (906264) | about 2 months ago | (#46866489)

Any idea where the REST API documentation is? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Bootstrap (1)

felipou (2748041) | about 2 months ago | (#46866723)

FTW!!!!

5 sec 100% CPU just to load a fuckin list of lists (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#46866751)

Are you fucking kidding me?
Why do i need to wait 5 sec and get 100% cpu load. i just want to see a list of mailinglists!

not updating!
srsly. get rid of that JS crap.
Blind people are fucked with this new fancy crap too :(

And what idiot was thinking that allowing people to send mail directly from mailman was a good idea?!
Like authorisation via mailsever: Fuck you!

Bootstrap FTW (1)

fulldecent (598482) | about 2 months ago | (#46866759)

As always, if you can't design an interface than Twitter Bootstrap, then use Twitter Bootstrap.

Wot no LDAP? (1)

frisket (149522) | about 2 months ago | (#46867127)

It is still missing LDAP support for list *owners*. AFAICS if you use LDAP for authentication, that means all list *members* must validate through LDAP, which is exactly the wrong way round. What I need is to enforce list *owners* to be members of my university (ie they appear in AD and can only login with their campus credentials), whereas list *members* (subscribers) can be from anywhere. Or have I missed something?

Definitely still beta (1)

Megane (129182) | about 2 months ago | (#46867271)

Looking at this page with Seamonkey has so much fail. Text blocks overlapping other text blocks, and the body text is a fixed-width item, so when your default font size is large or you zoom your browser, it gets a horizontal scroll bar. Seriously, fixed-width layouts should die. Also, why is "newer thread" on the left, and "older thread" on the right, and not the other way around?

https://lists.stg.fedoraprojec... [fedoraproject.org]

Really, all I wanted is for messages from people with mailers that didn't understand the concept of keeping e-mail to 80 columns or less (I think Outlook has been a major offender) not to be a mile wide because of how pre tags don't wrap long lines. I didn't want all this web 2.0 crap.

what does it look like? (1)

anarcat (306985) | about 2 months ago | (#46867765)

i see the cool hyperkitty demo at fedora, but what about postorious? what does it look like?

it would be great if the overly confusing interface of mailman would be simplified...

I'll try it when... (2)

ebh (116526) | about 2 months ago | (#46868289)

...mailman-announce is using it.

GNU Mailman sucks (1)

Trikoloko (801416) | about 2 months ago | (#46868739)

. The interface is a mess. It is counter intuitive. I can't believe there aren't better options around.

DMARC (1)

CBravo (35450) | about 2 months ago | (#46869323)

Does it mail DMARC-compliant? Mailinglist operators were complaining like the world fell down a few weeks ago.

Re:DMARC (2)

Predius (560344) | about 2 months ago | (#46872251)

With the way DMARC is being implemented, I don't think there is a way for a listserve to be 'DMARC compliant'.

Instead I've had to tell those with Yahoo and Hotmail accounts to go away and not to come back until they get an account with a non DMARC nutter service.

Re:DMARC (1)

CBravo (35450) | about 3 months ago | (#46875765)

Please inform yourself better. Even DMARC-haters agree on the fact that mailinglist-software can be changed so that DMARC-enforcing domains are not put in the From or Reply-To field.

Re:DMARC (1)

Predius (560344) | about 3 months ago | (#46877075)

Breaking normal mailinglist behavior... DMARC is based on a misinterpretation and misuse of email headers.

Re:DMARC (1)

CBravo (35450) | about 3 months ago | (#46880903)

That is your opinion. And you can do what you want with your mailing list server.

And any domain owner can configure DMARC if (s)he wants to. Which leaves the recipient mailserver operator free to NOT accept the message from your mailinglist server. Your opinion is not internet-law (even if it is written in RFC).

Re:DMARC (1)

Predius (560344) | about 3 months ago | (#46881127)

That is your opinion. And you can do what you want with your mailing list server.

And any domain owner can configure DMARC if (s)he wants to. Which leaves the recipient mailserver operator free to NOT accept the message from your mailinglist server. Your opinion is not internet-law (even if it is written in RFC).

And that is why DMARC is a bad standard that hopefully the net as a whole rejects. They purposely avoided the RFC process. RFCs may not be 'internet law' but if everyone decides to start going their own way, we're going to end up back in the olden days of IM with everyone stuck in balkanized little e-mail fiefdoms unable to contact other fiefdoms. Would sir like to sign up for Google's Internet, Microsoft's, Yahoo's? Pick one, and hope your friends pick the same.

Re:DMARC (1)

CBravo (35450) | about 3 months ago | (#46885273)

Spamfilters are not written in RFCs. Spam is a authentication/authorization security issue that needs to be solved and not a single RFC stepped in to solve that. So it was solved otherwise.

The next big item is email-over-IPv6. Rules are not yet set but one thing is clear: You cannot effectively block on ip address. An alternate method has to be used. My guess is that it will be SPF and/or DMARC. The big inbox-providers (Hotmail/Gmail/Yahoo/Aol) have something to protect (their business model) so they MUST have an effective anti-spam method. They might start to require DMARC or SPF before they accept email (so they can validate the domain with a personal whitelist or reputation-system). It might actually drive IPv6 acceptance.

Golly gee wizz (1)

Ice Station Zebra (18124) | about 2 months ago | (#46869505)

I'll take the fast c code of ezmlm anyday Batman.

Rest API? Is the programmer daft? (1)

Cammi (1956130) | about 2 months ago | (#46872067)

Rest API? Is the programmer daft? If he's rewriting it, he might as well use standards ... unless he is an RMS relative ... then .. well, there's a bridge he can jump ...

dkim (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46874983)

Does it work nicely with DKIM?

Fedora aren't using it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46876173)

It's a staging instace

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