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Kids To Get the Best CS Teachers $15/Hr Can Buy

timothy posted about 3 months ago | from the what-about-great-volunteers dept.

The Almighty Buck 157

theodp (442580) writes "Billionaire-backed Code.org, enthusiastically tweets U.S. Dept. of Education Chief Arne Duncan, is 'providing tremendous leadership in bringing coding & computer science to our nation's schools.' Including bringing kids in Broward County Public Schools the best computer science teachers $15.00-an-hour can buy, according to a document on the school district's website. One wonders how the Broward teachers feel about Code.org apparently coughing up $38.33-an-hour for Chicago teachers who attend the required Code.org professional development, which ironically covers equity issues. Duncan's shout-out comes days after Code.org claimed in its Senate testimony that 'our students have voted with their actions [participating in an hour-long, Angry Birds-themed Blockly tutorial starring Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates]: that learning computer science is this generation's Sputnik moment, that it's part of the new American Dream, and that it should be available to every student, in every school, as part of the standard curriculum.'"

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sputnik moment? (1, Flamebait)

0xdeaddead (797696) | about 3 months ago | (#46908361)

lol are they smoking this isn't 1974 with the release of Intel's 8080. Who are they kidding, this is just more people looking for .gov handouts dressed up in "professional development", and all the other jazz that comes with US government contracts. Good grief.

Re:sputnik moment? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908613)

Hey, that's cynical and wrong. It's people looking to lower wages of software developers as well as justify immediate requests for more H1Bs, all while taking away the focus on improving our nation's weak skills in the basics of reading, math, and science.
 
(Note that cynicism is orthogonal of correctness.)

Re:sputnik moment? (2)

ganjadude (952775) | about 3 months ago | (#46908633)

well with seatle setting min wage at 15 an hour, If these people are in seatle, they are saying that coders are worth the same amount as a mcdonalds cashier...

Re:sputnik moment? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909339)

Or is Seattle saying McDonald's cashiers are worth the same as coders?

Re:sputnik moment? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908917)

You realize the space race was pretty much all about government handouts right?

Re:sputnik moment? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909209)

Sure, for a definition of "handout" that includes "get value for your money."

Need masters for 15 hr. With no benefits? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908367)

The Chicago ones are union with benefits

Broward pays $30/hr for bachelor's degree (0)

raymorris (2726007) | about 3 months ago | (#46908461)

Broward county teachers who have a bachelor's degree average $41,000 salary for the nine-month school year. Summer school and professional development like code.org are options to make extra money.

Re:Broward pays $30/hr for bachelor's degree (4, Informative)

damn_registrars (1103043) | about 3 months ago | (#46908617)

Broward county teachers who have a bachelor's degree average $41,000 salary for the nine-month school year.

Are you sure they are able to teach with only a BS? I don't know about your area but where I live new teachers can only teach with a master's degree in education. Oddly enough we are even rejecting people who have a PhD in the field they would like to teach, and telling them only a master's in education will do.

Re: Broward pays $30/hr for bachelor's degree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908807)

Is there somewhere besides New York with this terrible policy?

yes, their pay scale does pay MA/MS more, or exper (1)

raymorris (2726007) | about 3 months ago | (#46909029)

Yes, their pay schedule has three columns:
BA/BS
Masters (related to field)
Masters (unrelated)

$41,000 is in the middle of their scale for a BA/BS.

I too am curious where you live because a masters in education is generally preferred for a school principal. In most states in the US, teachers need either an education related bachelor's, an unrelated bachelor's plus a six-month teaching certification program, or (rarely) another certification with no degree.

Re:yes, their pay scale does pay MA/MS more, or ex (1)

damn_registrars (1103043) | about 3 months ago | (#46909105)

I can tell you that I have lived in two different states - roughly 1,000 miles apart - that have had policies similar to this. Basically neither state will grant a teaching license to anyone who does not have a master's in education. It appears that they were both trying to ensure that they were bringing in better qualified teachers, but they didn't consider that some people might be drawn to secondary teaching after finishing a PhD in their original field. Being as when I was a high school student, both states (to the best of my knowledge) were taking teachers with only bachelor's degrees, they did up the requirements.

When I contacted one of the two states, they told me that basically the education department is too understaffed to evaluate applications that don't come in from people who either have an M. Ed, or are in a licensure program that is designed to lead towards one.

name the states, please (0)

raymorris (2726007) | about 3 months ago | (#46909189)

You've been asked twice already to say where this policy supposedly exists. What states are you talking about? I don't want to call BS on your post if some stupid state where liberals don't think about the consequences of their policies actually did something so dumb.

Re:name the states, please (0)

damn_registrars (1103043) | about 3 months ago | (#46909313)

You've been asked twice already to say where this policy supposedly exists. What states are you talking about?

I'm sorry, but there are people on slashdot who are desperate to figure out who I am. If I give away what state I currently live in, and the other state I have seen this policy in, that would make it that much easier for them to figure it out. I will only say that the 1,000 mile distance is mostly in an east-west direction, with very little north-south movement.

I don't want to call BS on your post if some stupid state where liberals don't think about the consequences of their policies actually did something so dumb.

As I mentioned in another post, at least one of the states has actually faced reductions in state funding for education, which has resulted in fewer people staffing the dept of education to evaluate teachers for licensing. That doesn't sound like a particularly liberal ideal to me, being as liberals are associated with throwing money at problems with wild abandon. Regardless neither state, to the best of my knowledge, is facing any great surplus of qualified teachers where it would make sense for them to turn down people who are demonstrated to be knowledgeable in relevant subjects and interested in teaching.

Re:name the states, please (2)

nbauman (624611) | about 3 months ago | (#46909643)

As I mentioned in another post, at least one of the states has actually faced reductions in state funding for education, which has resulted in fewer people staffing the dept of education to evaluate teachers for licensing. That doesn't sound like a particularly liberal ideal to me, being as liberals are associated with throwing money at problems with wild abandon.

When I think of government throwing money at problems with wild abandon, the first image that comes to mind is the Bush Administration sending $12 billion to Iraq in pallets of shrink-wrapped $100 bills and handing them out to contractors and others that nobody can identify. http://www.theguardian.com/wor... [theguardian.com] I've heard GWB called a lot of things but not a liberal. Maybe wars don't count, but I can think of a lot of other dubious programs that conservatives have thrown money at with wild abandon, like chastity-based sex education, Homeland Security, the war on drugs, the prison system and charter schools.

I don't consider myself exactly a liberal, but I will defend them (or anybody else) when they're unfairly attacked. I'll also criticize them when they do something stupid.

The sign that somebody is thinking critically is that he criticizes his own side.

Re:name the states, please (2)

Phronesis (175966) | about 3 months ago | (#46909451)

You've been asked twice already to say where this policy supposedly exists. What states are you talking about? I don't want to call BS on your post if some stupid state where liberals don't think about the consequences of their policies actually did something so dumb.

Since the commenter won't answer your question, here goes: Google points me to the National Council on Teacher Quality's 2013 State Teacher Quality Yearbook [nctq.org] , which says that: "Connecticut, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Montana, New York and Oregon all require a master’s degree or coursework equivalent to a master’s degree" (p. 87).

Re:name the states, please (1)

Phronesis (175966) | about 3 months ago | (#46909481)

Ooops. I misread the GP post, so my answer did not address the real question of whether they would reject a Ph.D. as being equivalent. Sorry about posting an irrelevant answer.

One thing I will say is that getting a Ph.D. prepares a person for research, but most Ph.D. programs don't include anything about how to teach the material to high school students, so it's reasonable that a state would want to know not only do you know the technical material, but also do you know how to teach it, maintain classroom discipline, work with students who have learning disabilities, etc.

It's nice to be drawn to secondary teaching after getting a Ph.D., but there is an important step in actually getting training in how to teach before that Ph.D. will be useful to most high schools.

thanks. If any require a masters in education (1)

raymorris (2726007) | about 3 months ago | (#46909613)

Thanks for that. When I have a strong signal on my phone, I'll download it and see if any require a masters in education, as the gentleman/lady claimed.

Re:name the states, please (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46910211)

So Mr. Hide-N-Seek moved from Billings to Baker City. Gotcha.

Ph.D. != qualified to teach (2)

Immerman (2627577) | about 3 months ago | (#46909237)

It sounds like a perfectly reasonable requirement to me. Having a Ph.D. doesn't qualify you to be a plumber or auto mechanic, so what makes you think it qualifies you to be a teacher?

Things are somewhat different at the university level because you're assuming that the students are basically adults that have already learned how to educate themselves, and the instructor is there simply as a guide. Plus there are grad students and a tutors around specifically to help them when your guidance is so piss-poor that they can't follow it. There's no shortage of absolutely brilliant researchers doing an utterly incompetent job of teaching at the university level. And that's okay - they can offer their students other things: windows into what makes the field vibrant. The prestige of having taken a class with X, etc.

When you're talking about educating children though it's a completely different ball of wax. Children aren't just miniature adults, they're inherently different creatures, important aspects of their brain have still only begun to develop, and you can't expect them to educate themselves with minimal guidance as you would an adult.

Re:Ph.D. != qualified to teach (4, Interesting)

mysidia (191772) | about 3 months ago | (#46909475)

It sounds like a perfectly reasonable requirement to me. Having a Ph.D. doesn't qualify you to be a plumber or auto mechanic, so what makes you think it qualifies you to be a teacher?

It's more like you're an Electrical engineering graduate, and a potential employer need some diagrams to be made of potential electrical circuits, BUT they (rejecting your qualifications), insist that only someone with an art/sketching degree is qualified to to put together electric circuit diagrams for their projects.

Because you have deep knowledge of science or engineering or mathematics or the subject matter, and teaching is a basic skill: just like speaking in public is a basic skill, and an expert in the subject is the most able to provide in depth guidance and genuine learning about the subject.

The education major who has rudimentary knowledge of math themselves --- trying to teach high school Calculus, perhaps, will not be able to answer student questions or encourage/facilitate/promote any learning that goes outside the teacher's very narrow box, of the teacher's own study of the subject matter.

If someone is going to teach Biology, I would take the guy who has a P.H.D. in biology, and the proper enthusiasm and skills, over the guy who doesn't have a clue about the subject, but just took courses to learn how to teach.

You don't need a 4 year degree in Public Speaking, to be allowed to speak at a conference.

You don't need a 4 year degree in Education, to know how to teach, and you will probably do a better job, since you actually know extremely well, the field that the subject matter you will be teaching is in.

I prefer QUALIFIED experts in the field they will teach about, FILTERED to include only people who are subjectively good at teaching.

Re:Ph.D. != qualified to teach (1)

nbauman (624611) | about 3 months ago | (#46909699)

When you're talking about educating children though it's a completely different ball of wax. Children aren't just miniature adults, they're inherently different creatures, important aspects of their brain have still only begun to develop, and you can't expect them to educate themselves with minimal guidance as you would an adult.

Case in point. I looked up some research-based standards for science education. Children of different ages can only understand certain concepts at certain ages. If you try to teach them something that they're not yet capable of understanding, you'll fail, they'll fail, and at worst you'll convince them they're not good at science.

For example, it's difficult for kids even in middle school to understand molecules and atoms. It's too abstract. It makes sense when you think of it. Science is based on observation. How can you observe a molecule? Yet I've seen people try to teach even 6-year-olds about DNA. When I asked the kids what DNA was, it was clear they didn't understand it. They were learning by rote. You could just as easily teach them that dinosaurs were on Noah's ark.

If you start teaching kids science at a level they can't understand, you'll fail. Maybe you can pick up a pointer like this on the job, but you can't just walk into a classroom with a PhD and start teaching biology. There is a value to learning education.

Re:Ph.D. != qualified to teach (1)

Belial6 (794905) | about 3 months ago | (#46910081)

Except that you are completely wrong, and your myth is perpetuated by an echo chamber of 'professional' educators. They are the same ones that say 2 and 3 year olds can't read.

Re:Ph.D. != qualified to teach (2)

cheesybagel (670288) | about 3 months ago | (#46909727)

Good luck getting a PhD without giving classes to students.

Plus secondary school students are not little children.

PhD isn't a teaching qualification (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909167)

I know plenty of PhDs who completely suck at explaining things to normal people. Having teachers with PhDs is a good thing, but they need to be able to actually teach as well. Whether or not you need them to have their skills certified by someone is a different question, but you need them to have teaching skills.

Re:Broward pays $30/hr for bachelor's degree (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 3 months ago | (#46908889)

Still there is not a lot of money. Especially for someone with a CS degree can walk from the teacher job and land a 55k a year job the following week.

Teacher pay needs to be adjusted. Science and math teachers should be paid as much as they would with other professions with those said degrees. Of course the tax payers including hte TEA Party would scream SOCIALISM at such an outrageous waste of tax payer money but it says a lot. Why do it when you have the student loan company and landlord hassling you for cash each month while you struggle to make it through.

Broward county is very expensive so yes when you pay $1600 a month for a 1 room apartment that $41,000 does not go far. Especially if you owe student loans in the tens of thousands like all recent grads do today.

the teachers make more than the $55k (1)

raymorris (2726007) | about 3 months ago | (#46909153)

> Still there is not a lot of money. Especially for someone with a CS degree can walk from the teacher job and land a 55k a year job the following week.

They could, but that would be a pay cut, probably.
$41k base for 9 months
$10k for summer school
  $4k retirement matching
  $4k additional insurance benefit

$59k comparative

The insurance part represents the fact that private employers pay for about 50% of insurance premiums, while school districts typically pay 80%-100%. The value of that depends - a teacher with a large family benefits more than one who is single.

Re:the teachers make more than the $55k (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46910199)

yea but you are throwing apples in with the oranges therefore you are not giving a fair comparison.

Re:Broward pays $30/hr for bachelor's degree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46910187)

I am a pretty right leaning conservative ... at least half of government spending is a complete waste.

BUT Teachers need to be paid at least near to what they could make outside of education. Then maybe we could get good teachers rather than the dregs.

I WANT to teach but I cant justify getting 40K a year (on the higher end) to teach when I can get 60K+ easily.

And before anyone starts talking about the time that teachers get off, most teachers work a week or 2 after the school year ends and start back 3 weeks or more before the school year begins. Where I live the summers are only 10-11 weeks long so teachers really only get about 5-6 weeks off MAX. This is not really enough for them to get the "summer job" that many people think that teachers get to make up the difference.

A sputnik moment?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908377)

"An hour-long, Angry Birds-themed Blockly tutorial " is your Sputnik moment? Really???

Re:A sputnik moment?? (5, Insightful)

Concerned Onlooker (473481) | about 3 months ago | (#46908583)

We are in times where someone who makes a billion developing a social app or game is considered to have done something important.

Re:A sputnik moment?? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908811)

I do hope that people read this and see how desperately we need numerous reforms. Ask a kid today "How much money is too much money?" and the overwhelming majority will claim there is no such thing. Even when disproportionate earnings becomes detrimental to society, because "me" is all that matters according to what we teach in classrooms and media. Plenty of parents try to teach higher morality, but success is surely limited by pressure from government and media.

Socrates had it right in the Allegory of the Artisan, and I doubt many so called intellectuals know what that is.

Re:A sputnik moment?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909597)

So how much is too much, Socrates? You should share this number so we can make sure that people don't earn more than that. If someone is universally acknowledged to be adding to society, when said person reaches your threshold, do we prevent them from working or merely seize all incremental earnings and repurpose them for something that you deem to be a better use.

Re:A sputnik moment?? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909779)

I don't call myself an intellectual, but I am a curious sort, so I googled "Socrates Allegory of the Artisan". Oddly, the only explicit result was a slashdot post by s.petry dated about Aug 2013 which I quote:

Start quote:

"Consider Socrates and the Allegory of the Artisan. The duty of the Republic is to ensure that a good artisan remains a good artisan. Pay him too much, and he will no longer produce works. He will not only stop producing, but spend his time and money meddling in other peoples affairs. The Republic has given him an opportunity to harm others as well as no longer be productive for society. If the Republic does not pay the Artisan enough, he will no longer produce. The artisan will be worried about the welfare of his children and home, and seek opportunities other than being an artisan to ensure survival.

The duty of the Republic is to ensure that people are rewarded for producing in society, but never so much that they become unproductive. This does not just go for the artisan, but also the farmer and cobbler and baker and every other job we have deemed critical to societies purpose and function."

END quote.

ol' 'Crates seems to be saying that those who actually produce something more or less tangible and reasonably necessary for the health and survival of their society (teachers, engineers, street sweepers) should be assured of an adequate living but should not be allowed to make enough that they start to get 'above themselves'

Apparently overcompensation (of many sorts including financial) and a proper sense of entitlement is to be reserved for those who produce Nothing tangible or necessary ( rock stars, PHB's , derivatives-traders, televangelists).

Weirdness: my CAPTCHA for this AC post is 'idlers'
       

Re:A sputnik moment?? (1)

The New Guy 2.0 (3497907) | about 3 months ago | (#46909479)

I'm not sure that works anymore. 1999? Yes, broadcast.com was sold for a billion.

Now, Million Dollar Home Page was worth uhm, what was that number again?

Pseudo-religious stupidity (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908387)

Young people tend to stay too much time connected to various machinery. Why extend this time under such a dubious pretext. What's behind all this?

summary is of course very misleading. (5, Informative)

raymorris (2726007) | about 3 months ago | (#46908403)

For those who don't feel like clicking on the linked documents, they aren't talking about teacher salaries, what they earn teaching. The pay also isn't set by code.org.

When a Chicago teacher spends a couple of hours doing professional development (taking a class or seminar), Chicago pays their teachers $38/hour for the time they spend at the seminar or wwhatever professional development they choose to do. Boward pays their teachers $15/hour for professional development. Those rates are for time doing prof dev, NOT teaching students, and it doesn't have squat to do with code.org - the districts pay for prof dev is the same for any class the teacher wants to take. (Of course it needs to be approved as professional development, a skydiving class probably wouldn't be approved for payment.)

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (1)

The New Guy 2.0 (3497907) | about 3 months ago | (#46908469)

This is essentially a report that says local cost of labor are off by more than 100% in those two areas for the same job. Seems like too many teachers in one place, not enough in another.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (2)

aix tom (902140) | about 3 months ago | (#46908589)

Might also reflect the cost of living.

I earn a lot less than others in my field in the bigger cities, but then I also was able to buy a home for 1/3 of the monthly cost of renting one in the bigger cities. And that's in "somewhat small-ish Germany" even.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (1)

The New Guy 2.0 (3497907) | about 3 months ago | (#46908679)

That's the domino effect... if pay is low, and costs are low, people are happy, but that's still an error to anybody who wants the economy to be leveled out.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (1)

uncomformistsheep (2950041) | about 3 months ago | (#46908829)

The pay for the teachers is voted by the local bureacrats. There are some market pressures of course, but also political ones. It may have more to do with politics than economics.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (1)

The New Guy 2.0 (3497907) | about 3 months ago | (#46909425)

Yes, but you can't force a teacher to sign a contract... there's a line between persuade and force. So, if the pay is too low, no teacher will sign.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909603)

Yes, but you can't force a teacher to sign a contract... there's a line between persuade and force. So, if the pay is too low, no teacher will sign.

Logic would dictate so, wouldn't it? I would like to point out to you that you will find teachers at any price. It probably will be harder for lower prices, and there likely will be quality issues, but you will find them.

So I hope you take a minute to think through your approach to thinking about the way the world works. Hint: it is not simple, and empirical data is needed. Your error is typical in people of the libertarian persuation.

P.S: Google for "adjunct working poor".

nah, how many jobs pay you to take online class? (1)

raymorris (2726007) | about 3 months ago | (#46908987)

If teacher salaries were much different, that would be one thing, but that's not the case. How many employers pay ANYTHING for time employees spend taking classes? Chicago treats pays PD time at about the same rate those employees are paid for doing their job. Broward pays just as much for the teachers' normal job. They just figure PD, someone taking a class they choose to take which may benefit the employer, is paid as if it were half work-time and half personal. I figure that's about right. I'd be taking the same classes whether I had the job I have or a different job.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (2)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 3 months ago | (#46909019)

Well considering that this is just a minor benefit in any teachers salary I would disagree. This is just an indication that the teachers union Chicago cared more about this minor benefit than the teachers union in Boward.

At the end of the year the Chicago teacher, who attended the exact same seminars as the Boward teacher just took home a hundred or two more.
And the Boward teacher might make thousands more as a base salary (we do not know), or maybe they have better health insurance.

Or maybe they do make 50% all round, but maybe the cost or living is equally lower.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (1)

nbauman (624611) | about 3 months ago | (#46909749)

Well considering that this is just a minor benefit in any teachers salary I would disagree. This is just an indication that the teachers union Chicago cared more about this minor benefit than the teachers union in Boward.

If you're a science teacher, professional development is not a "minor benefit". Do you want a teacher coming in to class and teaching your kids the same thing he learned in college 20 years ago? I know a lot of science teachers who put a lot of effort into keeping up with their field. They read journals, go to lectures, and attend conferences. It really makes a difference when you're teaching kids in the upper grades who are planning to go to college.

We've learned a lot in biology since they sequenced the human genome. It's challenging to keep up with it.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (1)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 3 months ago | (#46909795)

Well regardless of how much time any teacher spends keeping up with their field, most of that is not going to translate into new curriculum.

Not too many ground breaking developments in grade 10 chemistry in that last few decades.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (1)

Belial6 (794905) | about 3 months ago | (#46910121)

in the upper grades

This is a key line that needs to be in any discussion on teachers salaries/qualifications. A 1st grade teacher simply does not need the same qualifications as an AP science teacher.

plus $300 if a newer teacher does 6 hours (1)

raymorris (2726007) | about 3 months ago | (#46908483)

Ps, teachers in their first three years also get an additional $300 bonus if they complete professional development (including code.org) equivalent to six credit hours.

Re: plus $300 if a newer teacher does 6 hours (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908645)

Where can I sign up for this? Ã--

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908625)

What that number tells me (regardless of whether it's teaching or professional development) is that Broward County doesn't value it's teachers enough, period.

Re:summary is of course very misleading. (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 3 months ago | (#46910065)

Nope but new football stadiums take higher priority and of course job creators.

So Much Fail (1)

The Cat (19816) | about 3 months ago | (#46908411)

One wonders if part of the curriculum will be that once they turn 28, no matter how much they've learned or accomplished, they'll be fired and relegated to permanent temp status in the American workplace.

And that all the talk of "automation" is a load of bullshit to hand-wave people's attention away from the chronic underpayment of working people.

That is assuming they can get hired at all without impersonating a Southeast Asian staffing company.

CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (0)

The New Guy 2.0 (3497907) | about 3 months ago | (#46908413)

There's a lot of media these days telling kids what to do... even if the parents don't want them to. If you don't think so, you're not watching the right feed of Nickelodeon, Disney Channel, or any other kids network. We could have a very smart generation in their teenage years right now.

So, everybody, look out for smart programmers ahead willing to change things and then uploading their programs to smart system admins who make sure it gets onto the Internet. There's a new generation ready to challenge us, and hey, if you're part of that, welcome to Slashdot!

Please, everybody who's teaching programming skills, mention that Slashdot is a point where controversial ideas need to be discussed... projects can gain power for good things, or be told what's wrong here. I haven't seen an Ask Slashdot on the homepage in a while, do we still do that here?

Re: CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908477)

"Knowing how to navigate an interface someone built specifically to make things easy" translates to "smart" in your book? Why are kids smart to you? Because they can use things available to them that *you* know are complicated under the surface? Horse shit. Show me a kid who knows how to add in hardware. If they can't understand how things work, they can't make things better.

People need to move past this "Johnny can find web games in his own, he's so smart!" mentality.

Re: CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (0)

The New Guy 2.0 (3497907) | about 3 months ago | (#46908607)

Computer science is almost a "solved" technology... how's the current compliance with Moore's Law?

And for the kids who may be reading this... Moore's Law is the statement that computer power doubles quickly... we were moving up exponentially in the 80s, 90s, and still are even now in about all of the number specs in computers like processors, disks, and RAM.

Re: CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908713)

Moore's Law is the statement that computer power doubles quickly...

No it isn't.

Moore's law is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years.

Re: CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909295)

Moore's law is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years.

"Number of components for minimum cost." People always forget that part.

Re: CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908851)

Horse shit! Because of Mobile devices we have moved a lot from scaling up processor power in favor of power consumption, we have not reached a maximum. That and we have gone from a bunch of scientists using computers to solve problems to a billion people watching porn or doing other less productive activities (epeen waving on social media).

Computer science is not solved, computers can't build themselves or manage themselves. People have to code applications and design circuits at a minimum. And no, someone being able to find the latest meme on twitter is not doing either.

Re: CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (1)

Concerned Onlooker (473481) | about 3 months ago | (#46908627)

"Show me a kid who knows how to add in hardware."

Adding in hardware IS easy. This is how I do it:

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/... [newgrounds.com]

Re: CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908707)

yeah but everyone should learn about the seperation of hardware os and how things work even if they don't understand how the low level computational things happen in memory or the cpu, but they should have the opportunity to learn more and get exposed in a cs class

I know I learned a lot from being in and around the industry and I got exposed to a lot of it in school which did help me later on even though it was just typing class

no one needs to be a hacker, but people aught to have a general education of the internet and network infrastructures and topologies etc...

a class like this could even cover a broad general range of issues regarding the modern tech industry and intenternet helping highschoolers determine if it's something they want to become involved in or not... some people have a natural talent or desire for the industry and it's better to expose people younger

IMO though we aught to be doing more than just general IT education in grade schools anyway, almost every industry/area of work/education/life is underrepresented including home economics

Re: CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (2)

mysidia (191772) | about 3 months ago | (#46908815)

THIS [youtube.com] is how you really do addition in hardware.

Re:CAUTION: New Talent Ahead! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909079)

wrong, kids are less smart today. 20 years ago you had to know html to put up a website, now you just sign up with blogger and google does the rest. this is possibly the most stupid generation yet.

Eternally true (2)

paiute (550198) | about 3 months ago | (#46908431)

You get what you pay for.

Money talks and bullshit walks.

Re:Eternally true (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908479)

Yeah! And the more we pay teachers the worse they get! They should get 15/hour for the one day they work a year! Lol. Outlaw unions and pay teachers HALF and watch kids soar!!!!

Re:Eternally true (1)

sumdumass (711423) | about 3 months ago | (#46908681)

Ha.. i can just imagine the motivational speech at the begining of the year.

"Pay attention and do well in class or else you could end up like us teachers".

The problem with not paying enough is you will not attract tallent. Paying too much will attract lousy teachers who just want the pay so the opposite might not be ann answer either. But when your teachers compete with fast food workers on salary, you will end up with whopper floppers asking if you want fries with your math home work.

Re:Eternally true (2)

paiute (550198) | about 3 months ago | (#46908709)

Paying too much will attract lousy teachers who just want the pay

Is this why CEO salaries are at record highs?

Re:Eternally true (2)

sumdumass (711423) | about 3 months ago | (#46909095)

What does CEO salaries have to do with teacher pay?

CEO salaries are tied to performance bonuses and stock options. Their base pay is typically a fraction of what their yearly salary ends up being if their company is profitable. You cannot really pay teachers that way because schools do not issue stocks or make a profit. But a lousy CEO typically doesn't make near the salary that would be considered record high.

Re:Eternally true (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909211)

Have you never heard of the term golden parachute? Business history is fraught with mediocre or poor CEO's who crash the company into the ground and still make out with a grand payday. The idea that only top CEO's are paid huge books is business insider bullshit.

Re:Eternally true (1)

mysidia (191772) | about 3 months ago | (#46909267)

Paying too much will attract lousy teachers who just want the pay so the opposite might not be ann answer either.

So what if you attract them? It's your HR team's job to only hire on qualified individuals who are passionate about teaching.

"Will attract the wrong people" is a lazy excuse.

It will also attract the right people!

In fact... it will just attract people.

Re:Eternally true (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 3 months ago | (#46910093)

Pasionate about teaching? How about passionate to pay your bills and own a home?

If someone with that kind of background can get a better job to better him or herself then why bother putting up with the hell students and parents and tax payers put them through? YOu can be passionate about cooking too. Does that mean you want to work as a fry cook? Hell no. People ahve kids and responsibilities.

There are more positions opened than those who are great at it because the pay isn't enough.

I can say software engineer 35k a year! MUST BE PASSIONATE. What kind of applicants will I get? Students in college who wrote a game once for fun is about it right? They will go elsewhere where 50k min+.

That is supply and demand.

Re:Eternally true (1)

Proudrooster (580120) | about 3 months ago | (#46909615)

How about only take the top 10% of people who enter the college of education and pay them like similarly degreed professionals. This will get performance. The teaching field needs to attract talent not push it away, otherwise we could use a similar argument for CEO pay or whatever it is you do.

Our country seems to be at war with teachers and primary care physicians. Teachers are burning out an leaving in droves and primary care docs are committing suicide at the rate of 1 per day in the USA. Soon we will have a shortage of both. I am not convinced these folks are our enemies.

All pretty funny.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908439)

This discussion is pretty funny, when the banner ad I got when first viewing it was about getting PHP coders for $11/hour.
What student (in the US) wants to aim for that?

Re: All pretty funny.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908813)

Overpriced for a php programmer. That's like paying for a hooker who has an active herpes outbreak.

It's not the lack of teachers (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908489)

Today's kids don't like CS. Some may find programming interesting like keyboard lessons, but I doubt that will make them pursue a degree in CS.

Some will jump at that and do well (1)

damn_registrars (1103043) | about 3 months ago | (#46908499)

After all, $15 / hour is better pay than grad school, or an academic postdoc position. There are certainly some people who recently finished their CSci degrees who aren't interested in jobs in industry and would jump at the opportunity to make that wage.

Now, is it what we should pay teachers? No, teachers should earn more than that. But a starting teaching position for someone with only a BS would be reasonable at that wage.

Re:Some will jump at that and do well (1)

Trepidity (597) | about 3 months ago | (#46908715)

Grad students make less, true, but postdocs typically get a bit more than that, closer to $20-25/hr. Not exactly stellar pay considering how many years you have to put in to qualify for a $20/hr job, but it's still better than what you'd get as a K-12 teacher.

Re:Some will jump at that and do well (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908739)

And instead of a house, you can live in a tent. Instead of a car, you can either walk or ride a bike. Instead of clothes, you can weave cloth from available grass. Instead of going into a restaurant, you can dig through the bin in the back and eat much more inexpensively, reflecting the $15/hour wage you mention. Most of the $15 can be used to pay off that student loan, and maybe $10-20 per month can actually be used to reduce the principal (the rest of course, going to interest).

Re:Some will jump at that and do well (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908847)

After all, $15 / hour is better pay than grad school, or an academic postdoc position. There are certainly some people who recently finished their CSci degrees who aren't interested in jobs in industry and would jump at the opportunity to make that wage.

I'm a fresh CS PhD who moonlights as an adjunct a local private college, though that's more of a hobby than a job. The pay is negligible for me: a whole semester of teaching one course nets me less than a full-time week at my consulting rate. No one who's qualified to teach computer science will do it for just the $15 an hour. I'm doing it for the experience, mainly because I find it personally rewarding but also because it's good for my CV.

$15/hr is great money (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908535)

If you do the math that works out to over $30k a year. Not shabby at all, especially for a teacher.

Re:$15/hr is great money (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908911)

Back when I was working security 4 years ago, I was netting nearly $26k a year and there's no requirement of college education and I would have been making $27k by now with the COLAs that were in the contract. And that's without overtime.

$30k for teaching is shit money, you wind up on paper working 8 hours a day, but to actually finish all the work that you're expected to finish, it's going to involve working for free. What's more, you are typically required to have 5 years of post secondary education on top of the regular classes you need to maintain the certification. So, from a pay perspective, you're better off working security as you make barely less than you would as a teacher, but you don't require the degrees. In the long run, you wind up making more money. BTW, those figures were for entry level work, if I had sought a promotion, I would have been making a lot more.

Re:$15/hr is great money (2)

mysidia (191772) | about 3 months ago | (#46909309)

If you do the math that works out to over $30k a year. Not shabby at all, especially for a teacher.

We are talking about Broward County, FL. A place with a population exceeding 1 million, and an above average cost of living; fair market rents exceeding $13000 a year, for a 1-Bedroom apartment.

At $30k a year.. you can just about cover taxes, shelter, food and water, for one adult and some basic necessities.

I wish I made $15/hr (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908605)

I have a bachelors degree and I've been teaching for 3 years now. $15 an hour would be a significant raise for me.

Coding is not computer science (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908639)

Unfortunately, too many people - even many in the profession - equate coding with computer science. And I am certain that someone who works for $15/hour will not know the difference.

Re:Coding is not computer science (1)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 3 months ago | (#46909053)

Well at high school, computer science/coding/typing are all pretty synonymous.

Instead of whining.... (4, Informative)

westlake (615356) | about 3 months ago | (#46908653)

... why not look at what Code.org has to offer?

This is not a sampling, and it is free to all.

K-8 Intro To Computer Science Course (15-25 hours) [code.org]

Re:Instead of whining.... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909521)

... why not look at what Code.org has to offer?

This is not a sampling, and it is free to all.

K-8 Intro To Computer Science Course (15-25 hours) [code.org]

Sorry that is NOT programming. By the logic of code.org I was programming a computer while playing PacMan way back in 1982 on my Commodore VIC-20. I was programing back then but not while playing PacMan. Computer programming and the people writing the programmes used to be respected and well-paid. Today it is a race to the bottom.

Re:Instead of whining.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46910031)

Computer programming and the people writing the programmes used to be respected and well-paid. Today it is a race to the bottom.

Too many people can do it badly, driving value, both in salary and product quality, to the ground.

15 an hour??? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908673)

If you can teach coding, you can get a job making more than 15 an hour. You're only going to get awful teachers at that salary.

Broward and Miami-Dade are corrupt (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908853)

I live in South Florida. Broward County is north of Miami-Dade County. Like any urban city, the politicians and school boards are full of corruption and conflicts of interest.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com... [typepad.com]
http://stateimpact.npr.org/flo... [npr.org]

Seemingly everyone from the janitors to the superintendents are in on the take. They have hired felons in all levels. Some of them interact with kids:
http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.... [browardpalmbeach.com]

So yeah, the fact that there's no money for teaching after the all prostitutes and the payoffs and the other criminal activity is no surprise.

I work in the school system, btw.

Don't take my word, just Google it.

where? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908855)

Where can a tenured teacher make $15/Hour??

Here comes a thundering herd of script kiddies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908865)

Wow. Teach programming to teenagers around America and we'll have an enormous surge in malicious code.

This will give IT Security people nightmares for the rest of their lives. It's all part of the new American Dream.

Does anyone else think this is a bad idea?

Re:Here comes a thundering herd of script kiddies (1)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 3 months ago | (#46909033)

Well any decent IT Security does not have to worry about script kiddies.
In fact, if you are right, their work will be more sought after.

Re:Here comes a thundering herd of script kiddies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46910177)

That depends on if they are doing such work for the good guys or if its because it maekes me l00k teh kewl.

In an ideal world, a decent IT Security setup would leave no worries. In practice, I've never seen such a setup. Even the US DOD has been hacked a number of times, Linux has been hacked a number of times before, Apple isn't immune... There are no truly secure systems. Hell, OpenBSD has had a couple vulnerabilities.

I've seen it myself. I was once an intern for Environment Canada for a few months. I had to clean and reinstall a number of machines on a regular basis. We had a decent firewall, decent antivirus (actually, more than one antivirus solution), and a good IT Security team, but no matter what the setup or the user, machines were still compromised one way or another. Trust me, there's always a way in.

To be fair, I shouldn't say that EVERYONE will be bad programmers (that statement would be patently false). Many good programmers started early and weren't fools. I started when I was 12 and I have never written malicious code. But I know there will be kids who will think that teh haxx0ring iz kewl and they will do the Wrong Thing. I think that maybe Computer Science should only be taught in Universities (maybe to an older audience?), preferably with a single required class in proper Hacker Ethics.

there's an old parable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46908947)

teach a teacher to code, and you just lost a teacher.

A litmus test... (1)

matbury (3458347) | about 3 months ago | (#46909113)

Is designing Angry-Birds derivative games a "Sputnik moment" for education? A simple litmus test for the educational validity: Would it sound as cool and be as well received if it were in another mode/medium, e.g. designing board games? The educational outcomes for getting children to design board games are arguably more desirable, cheaper, and more practical than getting children to do the same with code. (I've done it and read the background research on learning projects including designing board games, and I can't see how doing it virtually, i.e. with software algorithms, would be as educationally productive unless they created and developed the games first in the real world and then created and developed them into software versions later, thereby avoiding cognitive overload).

BTW, I'm all for children learning to write code but in pedagogically sound and productive ways, and at appropriate times in children's stages/levels of cognitive development.

Just get yourself hands-on and dive in (1)

mrflash818 (226638) | about 3 months ago | (#46909857)

Honestly, just get yourself hands-on, and dive in!

Download a netinst for Debian stable.

Install it.

Install gcc, g++, ddd, vi/emacs, make, git, and play.

Try things. Learn by hands-on, error messages, research, stackoverflow, and time. ...There are so many good Internet resources out there in terms of tutorials, source code of existing GPLd programs and projects, of all areas of Computer Science. So again, honestly, just get yourself hands-on, and dive in.

payback? (1)

stenvar (2789879) | about 3 months ago | (#46909877)

Including bringing kids in Broward County Public Schools the best computer science teachers $15.00-an-hour can buy,

Isn't that the county of hanging chads? Sounds like payback to me.

Pay no attention, kids (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46909989)

Especially in the age where most of human culture is online for all to see, kids should learn to teach themselves, not passively wait for some bored teacher to teach them.
It's one of life's most important lessons.

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