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US May Prevent Chinese Hackers From Attending Def Con, Black Hat

timothy posted about 4 months ago | from the like-a-george-lucas-script dept.

Security 193

Taco Cowboy (5327) links to a report from Reuters that says "Washington is considering using visa restrictions to prevent Chinese nationals from attending popular summer hacking conferences in Las Vegas as part of a broader effort to curb Chinese cyber espionage, a senior administration official said Saturday. The official said that Washington could use such visa restrictions and other measures to keep Chinese from attending the August Def Con and Black Hat events to maintain pressure on China after the United States this week charged five Chinese military officers with hacking into U.S. companies to steal trade secrets."

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They're doing it wrong (0, Flamebait)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | about 4 months ago | (#47085757)

Under the Obama administration, the preferred form of entry into the U.S. is via the Mexican border. Once they cross by that border, they'll be untouchable by INS, and even committing serious crimes will not guarantee their removal from the U.S.

Or, to summarize, visas are for suckers.

Re:They're doing it wrong (2, Informative)

Mashiki (184564) | about 4 months ago | (#47085855)

Pretty much. I'm sure people are going to froth at the mouth and all the rest until you [usatoday.com] post [ap.org] stories [breitbart.com] like [thehill.com] this. [judicialwatch.org]

Re:They're doing it wrong (1)

SpankiMonki (3493987) | about 4 months ago | (#47085901)

you had me until breitbart

Re:They're doing it wrong (1)

pitchpipe (708843) | about 4 months ago | (#47085941)

You had me at "breitbart". You had me at "breitbart".

Re:They're doing it wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086077)

Wouldn't "until" stop at the first "breitbart"?

Re:They're doing it wrong (2)

Mashiki (184564) | about 4 months ago | (#47086365)

you had me until breitbart

That's nice, now go read the article and what will you see? Oh that's right, an actual ICE report(including metrics) that lists what they've been doing. That was later picked up by some other news services, damn that reality check.

Re:They're doing it wrong (-1, Troll)

DigiShaman (671371) | about 4 months ago | (#47085867)

Those fuckers will vote before my wife does. She came over on a K1 visa and holds a residence green card. Had she came through the Mexican border and dropped an anchor baby, she would be set to a path of citizenship no doubt.

Remember, illegal aliens are the largest potential voting block. It's why Democrats and Republicans are actively courting them. In fact, Obama just effectively pardoned 36,000 Hispanic criminals this month with a jail release.

Re:They're doing it wrong (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085889)

Because this is slashdot am I suppose to care about your mail order bride? I don't and I guess that is why you are so bitter.

Re:They're doing it wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086099)

I think the reason you're so bitter is because even your mailorder bride turned you down, your hand falls asleep on you, and you can't even see your penis when you take your mom's thong off.

Re:They're doing it wrong (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086529)

nah, some of us are capable of picking up women without having to resort to importing some asian shemale prostitute like digishaman

Re:They're doing it wrong (1)

SpankiMonki (3493987) | about 4 months ago | (#47085919)

Had she came through the Mexican border and dropped an anchor baby, she would be set to a path of citizenship no doubt.

Or, she could've come through before that Reagen policy thingy. What was that called back then? Oh yeah, AMNESTY.

(the chance of R hero being elected today, ZERO)

Re:They're doing it wrong (2, Insightful)

Mashiki (184564) | about 4 months ago | (#47086379)

What's funny is I had a green card when I was doing some work in the US back 12-15 years ago, and considered seriously becoming a US citizen(from Canada). What burns my ass, is that if I follow the rules I could be waiting upwards of a decade. While people who enter illegally can skip the entire process, get a pat on the head, and basically gloat in the face of the rule of law. What the purpose of even having the rule of law, if no one is going to enforce it? And at the very worst, actively work against it because of their ideology--instead of "doing it the correct way."

Re:They're doing it wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086153)

I thought Def Con was for suckers. What games do you play, other than meet your favorite gman?

Re:They're doing it wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086191)

Under the Obama administration, the preferred form of entry into the U.S. is via the Mexican border. Once they cross by that border, they'll be untouchable by INS, and even committing serious crimes will not guarantee their removal from the U.S.

Or, to summarize, visas are for suckers.

No, no, no. That only applies to some people. If you're Muslim, you're screwed. Now apparently they are extending the Muslim treatment to the Chinese.

Re:They're doing it wrong (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 4 months ago | (#47086393)

They've heard that the Chinese are confusionists, and that doesn't go with their ideas of law and order.

Re:They're doing it wrong (1)

Rinikusu (28164) | about 4 months ago | (#47086213)

I thought it was via H1-B.

So what about the organizers? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086407)

Won't the organizers just move the conference to Canada (or wherever) if they do this kind of stuff and people can't attend?

Re:They're doing it wrong (1)

Vitriol+Angst (458300) | about 4 months ago | (#47086603)

"Under the Obama administration"

You say that as if anything would have been different 14 years ago. Obama and ICE are still deporting lots of people. We still have a border with Mexico so it's a good way to sneak in.

The comment you made is lazy and stupid and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Isolation (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085759)

Good move US, isolate yourself from the rest of the world, so we don't have to do it.
See how that goes for you. Moves like this will only make the next Con's happen in a non totalitarian country, your loss.

PS: Isn't the 2nd amendment's sole purpose to prevent your government from acting against the people? Can you tell me what the f* you're waiting for?

Re: Isolation (1)

O('_')O_Bush (1162487) | about 4 months ago | (#47085769)

Pretty sure most believers in the 2nd Amendment don't give a rat's ass about helping the Chinese.

Re: Isolation (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085791)

Dude, it's not about helping the Chinese.
It's about your government turning the country into a giant jail and you all are the inmates. Keeping Chinese nationals from Def Con, really? REALLY? Like that will achieve anything, so desperate for a new cold war to cover up their own shit and distract from their own illegal activites.
It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

Call me Snake (0)

Chas (5144) | about 4 months ago | (#47085831)

It's about your government turning the country into a giant jail and you all are the inmates.

I thought I was dead...

Re: Isolation (2)

vux984 (928602) | about 4 months ago | (#47086069)

so desperate for a new cold war

Wot are you on about? A "new" cold war? Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

How now, 50 Mao? (0)

sethstorm (512897) | about 4 months ago | (#47085953)

Well, it doesn't matter if the US helps its friends and acts to defend against enemies (such as the BRIC countries and their allies).

It'll be more pleasant when people are penalized for aiding and abetting anti-US countries like China. Now if it only extended to guest worker programs as well.

Re:How now, 50 Mao? (5, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | about 4 months ago | (#47086411)

Then I guess all the corporations who let China build cheap crap for the US are traitors? And everyone buying something "Made in China" is as well?

Re:Isolation (1)

Travis Mansbridge (830557) | about 4 months ago | (#47085993)

Bearing arms is a last resort, we prefer to exercise the 1st amendment to resolve disputes.

Re:Isolation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086015)

we prefer to exercise the 1st amendment to resolve disputes.

"Sit on your ass and do nothing of consequence" is an amendment now? What a country.

Re:Isolation (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086079)

Bearing arms is a last resort, we prefer to exercise the 1st amendment to resolve disputes.

You mean this 1st amendment?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I actually lol'ed, are we even talking about the same United States? Because the United States I am talking about has neither freedom of speech, nor a free press. And the right to "peaceably assemble", really? Tell that to the people who got treated like criminals and/or terrorists during Occupy Wall Street. Macing and tasering people doesn't look to me like much respect for the right to assemble.

I am sorry, but if your 2nd amendment was created to protect the people from an overreaching tyrannical government, wake up, you HAVE IT ALREADY. Again what are you waiting for?

Re:Isolation (1)

mmell (832646) | about 4 months ago | (#47086225)

Four boxes to use in defense of freedom: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.

Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086373)

Soap, ballot, then ammo.

Even if you want to get in the jury box you only get a chance what, once every year or two, and if you're even vaguely interesting you're likely to have either the prosecution, defense, or both see you discharged.

Pretty sure by that thread of thought soap and ballot are pretty questionable as well: What changes have *YOU* wrought recently either through force of word, or through force of vote?

better idea (4, Insightful)

ebonum (830686) | about 4 months ago | (#47085767)

Bar members of the Chinese military from attending. Even that is purely symbolic.
Someone should tell Obama that in American we don't bar people based on race or nationality alone.

Keep in mind. The US sets the standard. If we start doing things like this, don't whine when the China does the same thing. They could make the same case for any conference on any topic. If Americans come, they will steal XYZ.

Re:better idea (1, Funny)

SpankiMonki (3493987) | about 4 months ago | (#47085779)

If we start doing things like this, don't whine when the China does the same thing.

can't tell if serious

Re:better idea (4, Insightful)

Dahamma (304068) | about 4 months ago | (#47085873)

Someone should tell Obama that in American we don't bar people based on race or nationality alone.

No, but there's nothing wrong with barring people based on political or military affiliation. China is not the US. They carefully control who they allow to leave China for the US, and so the Chinese citizens attending Def Con are doing so with the implicit permissions of the Chinese government.

They could make the same case for any conference on any topic.

Yeah, next time there is a hacker conference like Def Con based on complete freedom of expression and anarchy in China let us know. I won't hold my breath. And if China starts banning all US citizens from attending conferences, said conferences will no longer be held in China. But they won't, because the majority of China's economy currently revolves around placating American investors.

You can trash the US all you want, but there are a limited number of countries in the world that would even allow a conference like Def Con or Black Hat.

Re:better idea (2)

dryeo (100693) | about 4 months ago | (#47085923)

You can trash the US all you want, but there are a limited number of countries in the world that would even allow a conference like Def Con or Black Hat.

Many totalitarian governments like to get all the dissidents together in one easy to manage group. Show up and get entered into the database for extra scrutiny plus having all those dissidents in one group makes doing intelligence on them much easier. Always a good chance of hiring some too.

Re:better idea (2)

Dahamma (304068) | about 4 months ago | (#47086029)

Yeah, totalitarian. Clearly the US government is totalitarian. Or maybe you should go look up that definition before you use it again.

Show up and get entered into the database for extra scrutiny plus having all those dissidents in one group makes doing intelligence on them much easier.

What you have described is exactly the Chinese government model. Except for the hiring part - the US clearly does that at Def Con, but instead of threatening to jail people they threaten to pay them 6 figures.

Re:better idea (4, Interesting)

dryeo (100693) | about 4 months ago | (#47086145)

Yes, America has inverted the normal definition of totalitarian to pretend they're the opposite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

Re:better idea (1)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about 4 months ago | (#47086539)

Move the conference to Europe, which already has many similar ones.

Except for past/curr. Chinese history and practice (1)

sethstorm (512897) | about 4 months ago | (#47085917)

The Chinese don't have solid proof to the level that the US has on the Chinese. The Chinese only can cite a person that handed over US secrets, while the US can cite private and public sector examples (much less Chinese history of stealing from their own).

That, and it doesn't look like the US wants much from the US aside from a compliant labor pool.

Correction: (1)

sethstorm (512897) | about 4 months ago | (#47086197)

That, and it doesn't look like the US wants much from the Chinese aside from a compliant labor pool.

Re:Except for past/curr. Chinese history and pract (1)

mmell (832646) | about 4 months ago | (#47086241)

Well, a compliant labor pool and maybe a few weeks grace on this month's loan payment.

Re:better idea (3, Interesting)

rtb61 (674572) | about 4 months ago | (#47085957)

Bar members of the Chinese military from attending. Now how exactly does the NSA know it was members of the Chinese military. Let me guess after initiating proper diplomatic relations the NSA approached China's computer crime task force and initiated a legal joint investigation in the hacking and after proper legal investigation discovered the perpetrators. What, don't tell me this didn't happen, not even fucking close.

So the NSA hacked computers in China, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt those computer could be hacked and placed 'er' discovered proof of network hacking in the US, conducted by the NSA 'er' government of China and now the NSA 'er' government of China seeks to cover it up.

You can see the real problem here. The NSA blatantly and publicly lied repeatedly to it's own government, the NSA now has publicly declared it is hacking government computers in China based upon the evidence they are attempting to submit. Now we know how naughty the NSA has been, the question is would they, hack computers in the US and then falsify evidence and plant it on computers in China that it has now publicly admitted to hacking, in order to deflect attention away from it's own criminal activities.

Surely those idiots can see the problem they have created for themselves in combining network defence and network assault in the one unit. They are an offensive computer network organisation, their role is to destroy and break the security of other countries networks. Which now they are publicly admitting to via this flawed investigation, all based around hacking networks and breaking security and publicly proved only thing, is did hack government computers and networks in China. As to the validity of the evidence, they utterly tainted it to the point that only corrupt courts within the US would accept it and the rest of the world and the international courts would have to reject due to that extreme contamination.

Re:better idea (1)

sethstorm (512897) | about 4 months ago | (#47085975)

Bar members of the Chinese military from attending.

The problem is that it's more than just the military, it's practically everyone there with any competency in computers. The rest are accessories.

Oh, and it doesn't take cheap shots at the NSA to know that.

Re:better idea (2)

rtb61 (674572) | about 4 months ago | (#47085999)

You really don't get it at all. It is the sheer mitigated arrogance of the US government and claims that it's laws apply to every other country including the laws that the US government does not have to obey others countries laws in those countries. The total in you face arrogance of it all. For a start the NSA should have been told to STFU and everything should have been handed over to the FBI and the FBI should be pursuing the prosecution. This because they are a policing organisation that acts legally and not an espionage organisation that acts criminally (surely you can see the logical legal difference and also how the rest of the world would view it) but NOOOO, they had play knob head driven ego games and try to make the NSA look better after fucking up all over the place only to make US foreign affairs look stupidly arrogant instead and when that was failing double down on the stupid by banning arbitrary people.

Re:better idea (1)

NotSanguine (1917456) | about 4 months ago | (#47086087)

You really don't get it at all. It is the sheer mitigated arrogance of the US government...

How exactly is the US government's arrogance being mitigated [reference.com] ? Based on the context, I'm guessing you meant 'unmitigated [merriam-webster.com] '.

And we wonder why folks outside the US think we're all morons. Sigh!

Re:better idea (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086107)

Bar members of the Chinese military from attending.

Standard authoritarian response from any grandstanding politician or bureaucrat who doesn't know what "honeypot" means.

I loathe the fact that NSA has turned the US into a surveillance state that exceeds the wet dreams of Stalin and Erich Honecker combined. But I'd be equally disappointed in the US if it didn't give NSA a free shot at whatever assets the PLA wants to throw our way.

I guess I'm doomed to be perennially disapointed. I'm used to it by now.

Re:better idea (2)

mysidia (191772) | about 4 months ago | (#47086027)

Bar members of the Chinese military from attending. Even that is purely symbolic. Someone should tell Obama that in American we don't bar people based on race or nationality alone.

This is all highly unconstitutional. If they are allowed to enter the united states, AND they are not being arrested or detained, then they have the rights and privileges that those present in the US have...

Including the right to freedom of speech, which includes the right to organize and assemble.

The Defcon. and Blackhat conferences are an exercise of free speech rights. The government cannot lawfully prohibit those conferences or prevent anyone from attending; doing so is in direct violation of the bill of rights due to interference with and abridgement constitutionally protected activities and rights and privileges.

Re:better idea (2)

NotSanguine (1917456) | about 4 months ago | (#47086101)

Bar members of the Chinese military from attending. Even that is purely symbolic. Someone should tell Obama that in American we don't bar people based on race or nationality alone.

This is all highly unconstitutional. If they are allowed to enter the united states, AND they are not being arrested or detained, then they have the rights and privileges that those present in the US have...

Including the right to freedom of speech, which includes the right to organize and assemble.

The Defcon. and Blackhat conferences are an exercise of free speech rights. The government cannot lawfully prohibit those conferences or prevent anyone from attending; doing so is in direct violation of the bill of rights due to interference with and abridgement constitutionally protected activities and rights and privileges.

I didn't even need to read TFA to know that this will be accomplished by denying visas to those folks, not by posting law enforcement personnel at the doors to the conference and checking IDs. The US can (and does) deny visas to all sorts of people, and for many reasons, including this kind of thing. As do most other countries.

Perhaps you should think about what you say before you say it? That's not meant to be an insult, just a suggestion.

Reviewing the preamble to the Constitution. (1)

mmell (832646) | about 4 months ago | (#47086273)

WE THE PEOPLE of the United States of America in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything in there about helping anybody but us. Doesn't say our rules apply (or should be applied) to anybody but us either. I've also noticed that much of the Bill of Rights refers to 'the rights of the citizens'. Just being on US soil doesn't mean the Constitution applies to you - if it did, it would make it nearly impossible to deport illegal aliens - it would violate several of their Constitutional rights to deport them if the Constitution applied.

I'm just pointing out that this isn't a Constitutional issue, at least not on the face of it. The US Government has complete authority to select who it will admit and who it will deny based on any criteria the government chooses to apply. Now (theoretically) our government is bound by Constitutional law when dealing with our citizens and is (theoretically) answerable to the will of our citizens. We are still (technically) a Republic.

We do have international obligations to honor, however. Like every other country on the planet bar none, we will only obey even our own rules only when it benefits us to do so. This isn't a matter of right or wrong, it's just so. Argue political philosophy all you want, in the end no country does anything but what it thinks is best for it's [people|rulers|bottom line]. That "free speech" thing you mentioned - that only applies to US Citizens, and only while they are on US Soil. We tend to extend those rights to anybody that's here, but non-US citizens can/should not count on it.

Yes, I know - that's exactly the kind of reasoning that leads to US torture of foreign nationals, the Guantanamo Bay fiasco, and many other not-so-nice things our government has done on our behalf. Not saying it's right, just saying it looks to me like it's so.

Re:better idea (1)

thsths (31372) | about 4 months ago | (#47086043)

> we don't bar people based on race or nationality alone.

You don't? That does not align with my experience. How about Syria or Cuba?

Re:better idea (1)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | about 4 months ago | (#47086177)

Keep in mind. The US sets the standard.

I will agree with that. In the sense that any nation whose performance is lower than the US definitely deserves an "F".

Re:better idea (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086421)

Well, actually you do bar people on the basis of nationality. Indians and Chinese are not eligible for the Diversity H1B and have a 20-30 additional years waiting period for a green card compared to other countries

Better than arresting people at random (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085781)

Since the US is under such an oppressive regime, it's better to be denied entry than the other thing that usually happens over there: detention with no accusation.

Re:Better than arresting people at random (2)

MobSwatter (2884921) | about 4 months ago | (#47085805)

In Soviet 'merica, the crooks jail you!

Next defcon (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085797)

yeah this is the way to do it. Look forward to going to defcon 2015, Beijing, China

Re:Next defcon (2)

cheekyboy (598084) | about 4 months ago | (#47086239)

Why china? you still need a visa, why not taiwan which is next door, or hong kong or somewhere else thats reasonably easy to get into.

Re:Next defcon (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086325)

... or somewhere else thats reasonably easy to get into.

Parents Basements it is!

Limit CS classroom education of Chinese students (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085817)

If the government wants to stop Chinese from hacking US companies, it should limit the number of Chinese students studying Computer Science in American universities. That would cut the number of skilled Chinese hackers, and would increase the number of places in American universities for American students. ( See the article [cnn.com] "Chinese flock to elite U.S. schools". ) Of course there are worldwide MOOC classes, but limiting access to classroom Computer Science education would help.

Re:Limit CS classroom education of Chinese student (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085925)

Jesus, what kind of a racist asshole are you? Denying some random Chinese kid education in a bid to fulfil some supremacist fantasy, seriously WTF is wrong with you?

Re:Limit CS classroom education of Chinese student (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086215)

Jesus, what kind of a racist asshole are you? Denying some random Chinese kid education in a bid to fulfil some supremacist fantasy, seriously WTF is wrong with you?

You're aware that there are 56 ethnic groups that make up the Chinese population, and that they are not all ethnically Han, right?

Or are you a racist asshole who believes that the basis for the denial is going to be that they're Han, rather than their nationality, which has diddley squat to do with their race?

For about as long as it takes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086383)

to finish 'integrating' Native Americans into the 'American' racial type.

The Chinese may say they're keeping their diversity open, but go and look at how they're actually treating those other 55 ethnic groups...

Re:Limit CS classroom education of Chinese student (1)

aaaaaaargh! (1150173) | about 4 months ago | (#47086493)

He didn't talk about Han, and given that there are 292 languages in China it is pretty obvious that the 56 ethnic groups you mention and who are officially recognized by China do not represent the whole of China. And yes, someone who wants to deny education solely based on nationality, when it was previously possible, is a racist asshole. Besides all that, science is universal. Once you start limiting and nationalizing it, your research will go down the gutter within a decade or so. With a "reverse brain drain" the quality of US science would indeed decline very rapidly, since the US educational system is incapable of providing enough smart and educated people for top universities and centers of excellence.

Re:Limit CS classroom education of Chinese student (1)

NotSanguine (1917456) | about 4 months ago | (#47086109)

If the government wants to stop Chinese from hacking US companies, it should limit the number of Chinese students studying Computer Science in American universities. That would cut the number of skilled Chinese hackers, and would increase the number of places in American universities for American students. ( See the article [cnn.com] "Chinese flock to elite U.S. schools". ) Of course there are worldwide MOOC classes, but limiting access to classroom Computer Science education would help.

Of course. Because no one else, anywhere in the world, knows how to hack. Or understands computer science.

Pro Tip: Get a passport and travel around a bit. You'll find that there are bright people everywhere, and often they have indoor plumbing and stuff.

Heck, in some places they even have universities (even in China). What a shocker!

Re:Limit CS classroom education of Chinese student (2)

GNious (953874) | about 4 months ago | (#47086223)

Pro Tip: Get a passport and travel around a bit. You'll find that there are bright people everywhere, and often they have indoor plumbing and stuff.

If you're telling an American to go travel, you'll first have to explain that there is part of the planet that is outside of US, Canada and Mexico .
- Then you should explain the concept that people outside of those 3 countries do not always speak English ..
- and that they have sovereign countries with laws differing from those of the US (1) ..
- and that getting there likely requires more than a car ..
- and that people outside of those 3 countries might not be Christian, or Muslims (2) ..
- and that Americans usually cannot bring their guns with them when traveling internationally (3) ..
- and that spending a week in Paris doesn't qualify as "seeing all of Europe" ..

In fact, while I commend the idea of getting more Americans to travel internationally, I suspect you're setting yourself up for a lot of hard work.

1: Judging from posts on Slashdot, the prevailing sentiment is that the World is subject to US laws
2: Judging from Fox News, those are the only 2 type of people in existence
3: See signs when passing from El Paso, US, to Ciudad Juarez, MX

Confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085837)

I'm not sure if the U.S. forgot about the Snowden leaks or is trying to encourage other countries to start blocking U.S. citizens from traveling abroad.

Maybe they are using this as a controversial topic to get into the news so that people start thinking that since the Chinese are hacking/spying, that the U.S. isn't the only ones doing it, making it less of a serious issue...

I really would love to hear Washington's response to why they think they have the right to block China travelers for doing the same thing the U.S. has 100% proof of doing, not just claims.

No, the US hasn't been proven to anything. (2)

sethstorm (512897) | about 4 months ago | (#47085935)

The only solid (and court-tested) proof exists on the Chinese against the US (and about every First World country).

Snowden will only count when he and his case comes before a US court. Until then, any statements, materials, or positions held by him / his supporters are only conjecture.

Re:No, the US hasn't been proven to anything. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086023)

Except that the veracity of the materials is not in doubt, and it was not he who created them.

What kind of serf fails to have even the admissions of his leaders register on him?

Re:No, the US hasn't been proven to anything. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086103)

One who doesn't deserve the freedom he imagines he has, even though he doesn't actually have it.

No, the US hasn't been proven to anything. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086329)

Which assumes that the US legal system applies. Why should it? It's a corrupt system controlled by a corrupt government.

That's like claiming Nazi Germany did nothing wrong because the Nazi courts did not convict Hitler.

A little late isn't it? (1)

sasparillascott (1267058) | about 4 months ago | (#47085839)

After all the reports of Chinese based hackers penetrating every nook and cranny of Federal and Commercial Defense assets over the last couple of years this seams a case of closing the barn door long after the horse has left...

Hysterical. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085849)

China should just stop lending money to the US and watch it default.

Re:Hysterical. (2)

dugancent (2616577) | about 4 months ago | (#47085863)

Then we could stop buying goods from China and watch them collapse.

Re:Hysterical. (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | about 4 months ago | (#47085887)

Then China wouldn't have any dollars to roll into Treasury Bonds and we'd collapse.

Globalization is a bitch.

Not if they just repudiate the debt. (1)

sethstorm (512897) | about 4 months ago | (#47085939)

There's always the rest of the world(read: countries within the NATO-defined First World) that doesn't want the US's head on a plate.

Re:Not if they just repudiate the debt. (5, Insightful)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | about 4 months ago | (#47086247)

There's always the rest of the world(read: countries within the NATO-defined First World) that doesn't want the US's head on a plate.

Dude, I hate to disillusion you, but we ALL want your head on a plate. If you meet someone and they lead you to believe otherwise, you should try to recognize that he's talking out of both corners of his mouth in an effort to get something out of you. None of us like you. I was half tempted to say that, maybe, the Israeli's, but honestly, I'm confident they think of you as a self-absorbed pack of idiots whose only role is to be exploited.

This is not a troll. At least, it's not intended to be a troll. I genuinely am trying to set you straight, help bring your perspective a little closer to the realities that exist outside your borders.

The shit you guys are responsible for as a nation is not a joke. No one is laughing along with you.

Inside your country, you can divide things up into "The CIA did this, the NSA did that, I didn't do shit, I was just here minding my own business and paying my taxes.", and that flies with the people you meet on the street.

But then when Chinese hackers do something, you say "China did it."

That's how it is for the rest of us too. Without open warfare, you can't intrude into the inner workings of China and hold individual citizens accountable, you need to deal with the entire state, hold them accountable, and leave it to them to hold the individual citizens accountable, or not.

We can't intrude into the inner workings of America and hold individual citizens accountable, we need to deal with your entire state, hold you accountable, and leave it to you to hold the NSA accountable.

So, basically, everything your government does to the rest of us, you have done to the rest of us. You can argue about fairness and prejudice till you're blue in the face, but these are the power dynamics, and that's just how it is.

You seriously need to clean your house before the rest of the world is forced to come do it for you. If you don't realize just how precarious a position your government has put you in, you really need to wake up.

Re:Hysterical. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086115)

We do not need Chinese cheap labour as much as we "needed" it 10 years ago. We can automatise most of the work. That does not help all the western people who can not find manual labour work for them self. China looks to be able to handle this change by help of the one child policy. China might be reducing the working population enough to handle the downsize of the demand for manual labour.

China do not need the western world in the same way as before neither. They do need resources, but they do not need buy those from the developed world. Africa and other corrupt underdeveloped countries are happy to supply China.

Re:Hysterical. (1)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about 4 months ago | (#47086473)

Unfortunately the US would also collapse, so it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. The US economy needs cheap Chinese goods to make those extremely low paid service jobs it is based on viable. What do you think would happen if two thirds of Walmart's shelves were empty?

Piss off a few more who can damage us? Good Idea! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085851)

Well, lets just piss them off some more at us. They are obviously the 1 group on this planet that wont retaliate.

Bicycle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085869)

Everyone having watched the simpsons knows that americans are ready to sell nuclear secrets to the chinese government for a bicycle.

Good. (1)

sethstorm (512897) | about 4 months ago | (#47085899)

Given how much they've already stolen from us and other First World countries, it would be a good thing.

Prevents a Security Threat (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085907)

They're probably all running XP on their laptops, so keeping them out would significantly cut down on the number of vulnerabilities floating around the con WiFi.

Nothing but crims there anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085929)

That's what you get for this "edgy" poser naming of yourself. It's costing you your fourth amendment rights. And furriners, well, no need to teach'em the skills outright, no? As far as the US Gov't understands (which isn't that far off the picture that the "security experts" love to paint of themselves!) this is perfectly reasonable. So no complaining to them. Complain to your fellow hat wearers.

Report from NIOC Hawaii (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085931)

Recently finished up my 8 years in in Navy, last for were spent working alongside NSA, when you say "China's in every nook and crany" i't for the most part just bs malware...China is actually the #1 intruder we CATCH...it's the ones that we dont know about that to be worried about. Also, Defcon is all about freedom of information, i find it rather counter-productive to limit what it stands for...espeically comming form US with our "freedom of speech"

Hack the planet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085945)

I'd like to see them try.

Separate cabinets for pots and kettles! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47085973)

I mean, really.

Time to move the conferences (5, Informative)

spasm (79260) | about 4 months ago | (#47085995)

When the US govt starts dictating who is allowed to come to your conferences you need to move the conference. Same as the AIDS research conferences have been held anywhere except the US since the 80s because from 1987 to 2009 the US govt banned people with AIDS from traveling to the US.

Re:Time to move the conferences (5, Informative)

Frobnicator (565869) | about 4 months ago | (#47086055)

It isn't the only one. Quite a few conferences dedicated to cryptography and security have been held outside the US because of the ITAR controls [wikipedia.org] and other regulations that treat encryption as weapons and security systems as terrorist devices.

Cryptographic systems were listed as arms until about a decade ago, and even today some security technologies are potentially on the list. Even if they aren't on ITAR any more, attending the conference is certain to get your name entered to all kinds of US-based lists. Rather than risk being considered for international arms dealing and international terrorism, quite a few conferences take place anywhere but the US. The risk both to the conference itself and to those who might attend the conferences are just too great.

Austria, Switzerland, France, Malaysia, ... many countries are still more popular for security conferences than the US.

Obama is a jerk (0, Troll)

renzhi (2216300) | about 4 months ago | (#47085997)

Obama is a jerk, the whole administration keeps on making stupid decision. If you keep on doing things like this, just don't come crying when other people would do the same thing to you. It's not just China, it could be any country too.

Ping ping (1)

Arduenn (2908841) | about 4 months ago | (#47086003)

US May Prevent Chinese Hackers From Attending Def Con, Black Hat. The official said that Washington could use such visa restrictions and other measures.

It's already been hacked. They offered me cash to go there in their stead.

Why doesn't the U.S. STRIKE BACK?!!! (1)

wisebabo (638845) | about 4 months ago | (#47086007)

Ok, the U.S. (through the NSA) has been revealed (through Snowden) to be able to:
1) record and retain EVERY phone call made in an ENTIRE country (actually two, the Bahamas and Afghanistan I think)
2) hack into the e-mail of at least some world leaders (for example: Germany, not exactly weak in the technology department)
3) subvert (and exploit?) the standards for some of the world's most widely used security protocols
4) hack into the networks of Huawei to view source code (and change it?), one of the largest vendors of routers and other critical network gear
5) collect and retain for later data mining, the text and metadata for hundreds of MILLIONS (billions?) of people for YEARS
6) record conversations, videos and other intel through devices even when they appear to be OFF
7) has planted HARDWARE back doors in the equipment used worldwide for computing and communications
and on and on...

So why can't they tell China to STOP HACKING our networks for business advantage or ELSE
1) release the e-mails and other documents showing the favors given to the families of the top Chinese officials
2) publish the electronic money trail where the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars worth of bribes have gone (at that scale you don't use scraps of paper)
- this includes MONEY and other assets like property illegally squirreled ABROAD, which may be an offense (under Chinese law) punishable by DEATH
3) publish information regarding kept mistresses of the marriage officials of the elite, their names, dates of assignation, children born out of wedlock, assets
- throw in pictures (videos?) and every tabloid would have a field day
4) detail the political "assassinations" (sometimes literal!) and other dirty deals the elite have done to get into and remain in power

It appears that as a byproduct of their goal(?) of ferreting out security threats to the U.S. (or just plain building their capabilities) the NSA has a treasure trove of information that could topple MANY corrupt, authoritarian governments. Of course the U.S. is not immune to corruption but (I read) the (illegal) corruption in the U.S. is measured in the millions not billions of dollars. That's to be distinguished from the legal forms of corruption, lobbying, that plagues the U.S. :(

The NSA, starting from WWII, has had many decades (and a budget in the tens of billions A YEAR) to build up their technological supremacy (as well as being the single largest employer of mathematicians on the planet. Think of what THAT means). That is not an insignificant amount of money, it DWARFS most countries entire defense budgets! Also remember that the U.S. (and to a lessor extent Britain) are the CREATOR of the Internet as well as the modern computer; remember that Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Cisco, Intel, IBM, AMD, ARM, Nvidia are all Anglo-American companies. Think of all the "backdoor" connections that have been made over the past half-century at informal (high school/college buddies), formal (legal demands for information) and top secret levels (matter of national security or else go to prison). It's at the point where, to a foreign government, every CPU made or designed in America (basically all of them) and every packet (sent from America) must be suspect.

So the Chinese have MUCH much more to fear from the U.S. If they don't want a "digital Pearl Harbor" they would be wise to play by (America's) rules.

Re:Why doesn't the U.S. STRIKE BACK?!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086031)

So why can't they tell China to STOP HACKING our networks for business advantage or ELSE
1) release the e-mails and other documents showing the favors given to the families of the top Chinese officials
2) publish the electronic money trail where the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars worth of bribes have gone (at that scale you don't use scraps of paper)
- this includes MONEY and other assets like property illegally squirreled ABROAD, which may be an offense (under Chinese law) punishable by DEATH
3) publish information regarding kept mistresses of the marriage officials of the elite, their names, dates of assignation, children born out of wedlock, assets
- throw in pictures (videos?) and every tabloid would have a field day
4) detail the political "assassinations" (sometimes literal!) and other dirty deals the elite have done to get into and remain in power

It appears that as a byproduct of their goal(?) of ferreting out security threats to the U.S. (or just plain building their capabilities) the NSA has a treasure trove of information that could topple MANY corrupt, authoritarian governments. Of course the U.S. is not immune to corruption but (I read) the (illegal) corruption in the U.S. is measured in the millions not billions of dollars. That's to be distinguished from the legal forms of corruption, lobbying, that plagues the U.S. :(

The NSA, starting from WWII, has had many decades (and a budget in the tens of billions A YEAR) to build up their technological supremacy (as well as being the single largest employer of mathematicians on the planet. Think of what THAT means). That is not an insignificant amount of money, it DWARFS most countries entire defense budgets! Also remember that the U.S. (and to a lessor extent Britain) are the CREATOR of the Internet as well as the modern computer; remember that Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Cisco, Intel, IBM, AMD, ARM, Nvidia are all Anglo-American companies. Think of all the "backdoor" connections that have been made over the past half-century at informal (high school/college buddies), formal (legal demands for information) and top secret levels (matter of national security or else go to prison). It's at the point where, to a foreign government, every CPU made or designed in America (basically all of them) and every packet (sent from America) must be suspect.

So the Chinese have MUCH much more to fear from the U.S. If they don't want a "digital Pearl Harbor" they would be wise to play by (America's) rules.

Uh, that's "striking back"? That's like throwing a nuclear bomb on a fireworks factory to "strike back". Americans are nutcases.

Re:Why doesn't the U.S. STRIKE BACK?!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086185)

Cyberweapons aren't nukes, they can be very very precise in both targeting and impact.

You could release just one piece of information on one individual. It doesn't even have to be very damaging information, maybe just something that will make the target realize you could've released much more (like the last four digits on a target's swiss bank account). Just enough to persuade them to STOP THE HACKING OF AMERICAN COMPANIES.

However, the Chinese should realize that if they escalate this conflict, they will lose and lose big time.

Re:Why doesn't the U.S. STRIKE BACK?!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086271)

Americans are nutcases.

However, the Chinese should realize that if they escalate this conflict, they will lose and lose big time.

Q.e.d.

What fscking hypocrisy. You cannot really "escalate" cyberspying beyond the level that the American NSA is doing.

If the Chinese want to "escalate", they can just put a trade embargo on the U.S. and the U.S. dollar. Guess whose economy would collapse in consequence.

Xenophobia (2)

phmadore (1391487) | about 4 months ago | (#47086063)

Why are they singling out the Chinese? Don't throw statistics at me. There are French, Israeli, Egyptian, South Korean, Japanese, and on down the line who've hacked facets of the US Government and US Companies. If you're going to go down this road, you have to disallow everyone. I'm not saying you should go down this road. Then again, I aspire to be a Chinese Citizen [phmadore.com] .

These Are Standard Tactics (1)

NotSanguine (1917456) | about 4 months ago | (#47086127)

Used by countries the world over. "No, your people can't come to our country for this or that conference/function/speech, etc. You guys piss us off about something or other, so we're going to make a stink about it.

This is nothing new, nor is it especially interesting. It's just a (not so) friendly reminder to the Chinese that we don't like their attempts (both successful and unsuccessful) at espionage (both industrial and political). That we do it to them and others is irrelevant. This is a political ploy with a long and storied tradition.

Pot, meet kettle (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086189)

The US has been guilty of pervasive industrial espionage for a very long time. The whole US regime is just an extension of corporate power. It always disgusts when, when I hear Americans talk of democracy. At least in China the opposite is true, corporate power is largely an extension of the regime, and however opressive, there appears to be a genuine attempt to improve social conditions instead of just boosting shareholder profit.
All these accusations levelled at China, seem merely to be a distraction from the real problems in the United States. The US regime has become a kind of Hyper Stasi, with much souped up surveillance over its original East German template, and of course with similar murder harassment, and imprisonment without trial of opponents, in much the same way.

Why not ban the NSA? (2)

Casandro (751346) | about 4 months ago | (#47086207)

I mean those people create _actual_ harm.
China cannot harm people outside China in any significant way, and should they ever do, your local government would at least protest. However no western government ever protests against the US... even when they abduct people.

China doesn't even run large sigint installations in Germany the way the US does.

Hilarious (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086261)

Isn't part of being a hacker the ability to get into somewhere without the knowledge of that somewhere's owner? Of course there is a good and dark side to that. But lets just focus on the good (albeit, black hat)

Maybe the success of a hacker can be first determined by their appearance to the event. Immunity to the imposition expressed.

Def Con cancelled. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47086327)

I heard Def Con was cancelled this year anyways...

Re:Def Con cancelled. (1)

PsyMan (2702529) | about 4 months ago | (#47086349)

I heard they were moving it to the CNCC Grand Hotel in Beijing?

It all makes sense (2)

jameshofo (1454841) | about 4 months ago | (#47086585)

The implied ending to "Yes we can" is "do whatever the hell we want"
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