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More On Tragedy

Hemos posted more than 12 years ago | from the following-the-news dept.

United States 2087

There's been lots more happening today - arrests and suspect taken from the Westin Hotel in Boston, as well as the Park Hotel in Newton, MA, which is right down the road for me. There's been some thoughtful submissons about people saving the feeds on their [PVR]s, so that the moment isn't lost in time. NATO has invoked Article 5, meaning that for first in history, I believe, the mutual defense clause has been activated. More news included below.Scott Laird writes "We've received notice that our network facilities in NYC are going to run out of Diesel in ~2 hours, and there's no way to get more diesel to them until lower manhattan is opened up. Since we're located in the same facilties as most of the other major network providers in Manhattan, odds are there are going to be a lot of things dropping off the air this afternoon."

ELBnet writes It would be a godsend if the various survivor registries would pool their data, or if someone sets up a google-like search engine to reach all of them at once - and that is a great idea. I set up the search engine at WWW.ELBnet.com/wtc but need URLs to populate it. Please e-mail me any suggested URLS and I'll add them.

Also please don't /. the site... let the people who need it get to it. Spread the word."

Radio Free Wazee writes "Radio Free Wazee has suspended its normal programming in order to provide a relay for National Public Radio. Most of the sites are slammed -- we've got room for about 320 listeners. You'll need an MP3 player (WinAMP, etc.) -- the stream is at http://live.str3am.com:2310/listen.pls Our web site is http://www.ideashot.com/wazee.org Howard @ radio free waee"

GatorMan writes "The Red Cross and Amazon.com have setup a donations page for disaster relief to aide in the recovery of our people. I've seen it jump $100,000 in an hour (thanks to my $10 I'm sure) with over 25,000 donations so far, very promising. No where else on Earth could you find support like this."

winksmith writes "as many of us look on the recent crashes in horror, we will also be pushed towards more tech solutions to some of the scenarios witnessed. i believe experts agree that the buildings may have stood up to forces of the crash had it not been for the very hot fuel burning w/i the building. the building themselves were designed to take aircraft impacts (albeit circa 1960 aircraft). this disaster may spark re-interest in fuel additives for jet fuel that would immediately put out fires upon impact.

the faa and nasa ran some very extensive tests including the purposeful crashing of a large boeing jet (B720) in december of 1984. the tests were not encouraging. details are available. figure 1-1 shows the jet crashing.

no one can second guess what would have happened, but perhaps continued research into this area might have played a role in saving a few more lives. and still may in the future."

Wiggins writes ""The Internet Fraud Complaint Center recently received several complaints that someone is using the letters, "FBI" or "fbi.gov" in an e-mail address in order to make it seem that the message is coming from an FBI employee. In several cases, the message said, "Your application is approved. Please fill out this form to confirm your identity" and solicited the person's name, address, credit card number and expiration date." More on the http://www.ifccfbi.gov/. I am sure /. users know better, but the general populace doesn't (always)."

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Katy! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288232)

I hope you are safe!

Re:Katy! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288359)

She was on the 75th floor, how could she possibly be safe? Katy is dead, Anonymous Coward, and you have to deal with it. She's not coming back. She is already buried. She is dead, gone, destroyed. Sorry.

VANILLA ICE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288236)

kicking ass and taking names!


Frist prosties, ladies

Re:VANILLA ICE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288248)

this is arguably silly

What can be done about terrorism? (4, Interesting)

kiwaiti (95197) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288239)

Yesterday, immediately after the attack, it was hard to think anything but "nuke the middle east back into stone age", which seemed to fit the would-be nukees' level of cultural development.

Today, having calmed down a little, I have been thinking about feasible ways to prevent such acts of terrorism.

Experts seem to agree that security measures can never completely prevent a determined, well organized attempt involving suicide killers. Never being fully secure, maybe we could still make pulling off something like this hard enough so it won't happen again. Please share your ideas.

One thing I read on /. was "physically separate the pilots from the passenger cabin". I think that would make it a lot harder. It could be improved by adding security personnel in plain clothes (preferably Constable Angua von Überwald ;o) israeli-style.

This act was obviously planned by a close and disciplined group. Such groups need money to operate. It has been suggested that Osama Bin Laden be involved in this. Regardless, he is definitely actively supporting terrorism, which is what we are trying to make more difficult.

IIRC, Bin Laden is a sort of rich businessman from Saudi-Arabia. Probably he still owns some company (or companies), drawing his income from it (or them). The huge, illegal, (nonexistant) cartels of (nonexistant) multinational corporations (not) governing virtually all international trade all (don't) have well established procedures (not) to crush possible competitors. Considering the degree of interdependency in our economy and the fact that the WTC housed some quite influential offices, Bin Ladens commercial efforts might suddenly prove unfit for competition on global markets, as did many others, surprising unsuspecting watchers.

Apparently, he gets lots of cash from fund-raising organizations operating in rich (read: G7) countries. Could these be found out, their efforts proved illegal, their money confiscated?

These methods could be used against multiple targets. They seem to involve less martyr potential than nukes. Any other suggestions?

Kiwaiti

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (3, Flamebait)

jiheison (468171) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288272)

Today, having calmed down a little, I have been thinking about feasible ways to prevent such acts of terrorism.

Simple. Here are just a few ways:

1) Take actions to prevent the conditions that breed terrorism and show the people of the world that we pay more than lip service to the idea of 'defending liberty'.

2) Reign in corporate greed and globalization. As long as our bottom line takes precendence over human rights, we will be a target of (quite justifiable) rage and (condemnable) violence.

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (0, Offtopic)

wubc (450153) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288340)

I think Operation SwordFish, Rainbow Six, etc should really be created now.

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (0, Flamebait)

mr_don't (311416) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288293)

Nuke the Middle East? Which part? The Kurds? The Iraqis? The Egyptians?

It is not understandable to "Nuke the Middle East".

It might help to try not being a racist, and maybe looking elsewhere for your news than CNN and FOX news.

Maybe you should have spent your time thinking of ways to provide sustainable peace throughout the world. The United States drops bombs on Iraq everyday, where are you to protest this action?

Why not be a racist? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288316)

Racism helps us to identify our enemies.

Re:Why not be a racist? (1)

jms (11418) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288367)

... as it simultaneously creates them.

Arm Pilots (4, Insightful)

catseye_95051 (102231) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288304)

This ocurred to me last night.

Every commercial airline pilot i have ever met was an ex air-force pilot. (In the USe abotu the only way to learn to fly jhets is to join the US Airforce.)

Given that, I would think they have training on the proper handling of a side arm. Maybe its time to arm them all.

Re:Arm Pilots (2)

Luke (7869) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288351)

Either arm them or make it impossible to get into the cockpits.

Re:Arm Pilots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288361)

Great idea.. now hijackers won't have to worry about gettingtheir own weapons onboard as long as they can muster a little surprise.

Re:Arm Pilots (5, Insightful)

Jeremi (14640) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288362)

Well, maybe, but then there would always be guns on the aircraft, freeing the hijaakers from having to figure out how to smuggle them on board. Instead, they could just sneak up on the pilots and grab the guns from them. Perhaps if the guns were "keyed" to the pilots' thumbprints or something, so that they couldn't be used by anyone else...

Re:Arm Pilots (2)

jheinen (82399) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288368)

Not any more. Civilian flying schools have taken over supplying the pipeline for commercial pilots. The military has fewer pilots, and much less attrition than they had in the past. Within the next couple of years, if not sooner, the majority of airline pilots will be civilian trained (FYI for you job seekers out there - there is a growing need for pilots, and inthe next couple of years the shortage will be critical. If you're looking to change careers, now might be a good time to do it).

-Jeff

Re:Arm Pilots (1)

CaptJay (126575) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288389)

That is a bad idea.

Passenger plane crews are not armed for a very good reason: any weapon on board can also be used by pirates if they get a hold of it. In the end, it would probably be more dangerous for the crew and passengers than doing any good.

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (5, Insightful)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288306)

it was hard to think anything but "nuke the middle east back into stone age"

Hard for you, maybe, but not for the 7+ million Muslims in the United States who condemn this attack just like everyone else. No, these people are thinking, "Shit, now everyone is going to blame all of us right away."

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288371)

And why shouldn't they? When did the last Christian suicide bomber blow up a building in the United States?

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (0, Flamebait)

Ghoser777 (113623) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288399)

I think it was probably when they bombed an abortion clinic. It's too bad that Christians are suppose to love their enemies and not kill others, then maybe this practice would align with their actions.

F-bacher

What can be done? Nothing. (4, Interesting)

torpor (458) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288317)

The only effective weapon against terrorism is to do absolutely nothing.

Make any change at all in response, and you are instantly losing. Pandering to the desired effect, which is 'change'.

Say what you will about the loss of life, and the human tragedy of it, but the fact remains: humans die, whether at the hands of other humans, or by their own doing.

Yes, it's horrific the way things went down in New York yesterday. Terrible, and we all suffered through it (thanks to live action television) with those souls in the street and in the buildings and planes.

Americans fear death. Everything they do - their entire culture - is designed to prolong the inevitable.

It is this nations biggest weakness.

Responding to this form of terrorism with anything less than an utterly peaceful view is to let the terrorists win.

Killing terrorists in retaliation won't work - they've already demonstrated they're not afraid of death - something that most Americans can not truly admit.

Face it. In this particular case, America is not the superpower, since those who do not fear death have the mightiest weapon of all.

However, we should of course expect a typically American reaction. Bombing of specific targets. Categorically standard propagation of information by American news/propaganda corporations. Political jousting and hustling. Conspiracy, subterfuge, irresolution.

Made for TV movies will be on the airwaves by June ...

Your head... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288345)

is up your ass.

To do nothing will embolden more attackers.

Re:What can be done? Nothing. (2, Insightful)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288402)

Killing terrorists in retaliation won't work - they've already demonstrated they're not afraid of death

You don't kill terrorists to punish them, you kill them to get rid of them! The more terrorists you kill, the less terrorism there will be. Duh!

Of course, the hard part is killing only the terrorists and sparing the innocent victims of Mid-East strife.

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (1)

millerjl (126046) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288327)

physically separating the pilots from the passengers is easily said... but you still have to prevent passengers from bringing on things that can get through walls (explosive, or otherwise)... some of which can be detected... some can't without more intrusive means of detection... this would also mean the scrapping of the entire airline fleet until planes can be retrofitted with kevlar, steel, and force fields.

expansion of the air marshalls is the best plan i've heard yet... assuming that you can have enough of them on each plane at the same time to prevent massed attacks... uggg...

no perfect solutions is there.

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (2)

zpengo (99887) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288356)

I have to commend the US Government for having shown a lot of restraint. I know everyone's itching to figure out what country we can bomb, but they really are taking their time and trying to make sure they've got the right person.

They've already dropped hints [slant-six.org] that war is probably imminent, but it is possible that they're just bluffing in an attempt to get political leaders to turn over the terrorists. The Taliban are peeing their pants right now.

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (1)

skwog (101252) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288369)

Um, WAS from Saudi Arabia. He was kicked out the country and hides in many places such as Afghanistan for good reason. Even fail to recognize this. More accurately, he was formerly Saudi Arabian.

Re:What can be done about terrorism? (2)

henley (29988) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288381)

Yesterday, immediately after the attack, it was hard to think anything but "nuke the middle east back into stone age", which seemed to fit the would-be nukees' level of cultural development.

I don't think you have any idea how much such views under any circumstances scare the bejesus out of me and many other people.

Regardless of any justification, righteous anger and emotional response I urge you to consider one very very simple point: How would acting on such an impulse or (horror) reasoned response make you any better that those you seek vengence on?

If you want to be the good guys, you have to act like good guys.

This is more than just a US thing... (0, Redundant)

iJosh (119555) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288253)

NATO showing their backing and various european and asian governments showing support, this is not a big suprise. It should be expected, the World Trade Center in NY was home to offices of many international finance corporations. There is not a much better way to hurt the world economy that swiftly.

Amazon Donation Page (5, Informative)

jeff67 (318942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288255)

It's worth mentioning that Amazon isn't charging their usual cut for the service, all money is going to Red Cross. And (this is a bit odd) it's refundable for 30 days.

Re:Amazon Donation Page (1)

kryptkpr (180196) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288352)

They're up to over 1 million in donations now.. with about 37,000 donations...so the average person donated $27, and that's quite impressive.

Re:Amazon Donation Page (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288372)

I bet they still book it as revenue, then write it off the books as a donation. Bezos in an unbelievable scumbag.

Even goatse.cx is mourning (4, Funny)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288256)

I'm not kidding. Go to goatse.cx [goatse.cx] , and instead of the horrible sight you think you'll see, you'll find something different.

Re:Even goatse.cx is mourning (0)

kz45 (175825) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288284)

I am truly amazed

Re:Even goatse.cx is mourning (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288285)

Woohoo! Less than one minute to +5 Funny! Fastest goatse.cx mod ever, but it was in the opposite direction from the usual :-)

Shiver (5, Funny)

Srin Tuar (147269) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288290)


So twenty odd thousand people are killed, and your first thought is, "hey, lets see what goat.secx has to say about this"


Or maybe you just have it set as your homepage...

Re:Shiver (1)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288333)

Or maybe I innocently clicked a link to a page at www.somethingawful.com which automatically redirected me to goatse.cx before I could react. Luckily, my eyes didn't immediately explode since the picture is off the front page.

Then I thought, my god, I just HAVE to post this to slashdot. Wouldn't you? I just wanted to see how the moderators would react. So far they seem to be taking it pretty well...

Re:Shiver (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288400)

Or maybe you just have it set as your homepage...

Well, it is a "portal" site of sorts ...

Re:Even goatse.cx is mourning (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288384)

What are you talking about? It's the same as it's ever been.

Check Out Amazon (4, Informative)

digitac (24581) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288258)

This may not be exactly on topic with the story above but relevent.

I've been watching Amazon.com's RedCross donation page today. It was mentioned here earlier. It has just passed $1 million collected with over 36,000 people contributing. Truely amazing.

I hope everyone will consider donating at least a little bit to help the victims.

Jonathan

Re:Check Out Amazon (1)

digitac (24581) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288276)

Yes, I just finished reading the post. When I initially scanned over it I missed the Amazon bit. Sorry. I was so excited to see the outpouring of support on amazon I jumped to post it.

-Jonathan

Anagram (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288259)

you can rearrange the letters in "World Trade Center" to spell "Cold War Deterrent" but I'm not sure what that could mean just yet.

Network Centers Out of Deisel? (1)

matth (22742) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288262)

Which network centers are we talking abotu that wre going to run out of deisel? TV/Radio? Are they without power right now? That post wasn't terribly clear.

Re:Network Centers Out of Deisel? (2, Informative)

Matador76 (518456) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288332)

Most of the TV stations were off the air when the second building collapsed. Only WCBS-TV has a backup transmitter (@ Empire State Building.) They've since piggybacked onto other broadcasters outside of Manhattan to get a signal out. NPR FM station is now using another stations call letters and frequency.

Speaking of PVRs... (2, Interesting)

Booker (6173) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288265)

Ok, perhaps this is flamebait, but I'm asking, because I think it has some relevance.

I read on the 'net that when "The WB" covered Bush's speech yesterday, there was a mic on that shouldn't have been. They claimed that they heard someone feeding lines to Bush during the first part of the speech - i.e. reading lines to Bush, Bush then repeating what he heard.

Anyone else see this? Or is it political FUD? It would explain his strangely halting delivery.

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (1)

tang (179356) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288312)

Well...That would be standard procedure...kinda. Do you really think the president writes his own speeches? Do you think he memorizes them? No, Someone types them, he may read them once before hand, then he reads them off of a teleprompter typically. Due to the short time they had to make this speech, it is quite possible someone had to just read it to him. No big deal here.

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (4, Insightful)

henley (29988) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288321)

I'm in the UK, and I have no PVR. This is a comment regarding motive & conclusions, not facts.

In that vein, and regardless of my feelings about the gentleman concerned, under the circumstances I am very prepared to cut him some slack. I wouldn't trust myself to get a 4-word sentence out straight if placed in a similar situation. Any assistance the man needed to get the right words out to the world would be very astute and appropriate.

All IMHO, obviously....

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (1)

MastahBates (516888) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288326)

Don't be surprised, all polilicos speeches are written up by someone else. Although the speechwriter is supposed to make the speeches sound like it's actually something the person might say, at times like that, I think most people would be speechless.

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (2)

Robert Wilde (78174) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288335)

Why is this marked off topic? I heard the same thing, though I'm not sure I trust the source. Can anyone here that saw the beginning of the WB broadcast confirm or deny?

Ok, perhaps this is flamebait, but I'm asking, because I think it has some relevance.

I read on the 'net that when "The WB" covered Bush's speech yesterday, there was a mic on that shouldn't have been. They claimed that they heard someone feeding lines to Bush during the first part of the speech - i.e. reading lines to Bush, Bush then repeating what he heard.

Anyone else see this? Or is it political FUD? It would explain his strangely halting delivery.

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288337)

Maybe the 'prompter was down. It's not like Bush actually thinks up those speaches...

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (2)

Rimbo (139781) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288341)

Sounds like political FUD to me. We all know Bush is a lousy public speaker, and this is a crappy time to try and stir up partisan trouble like this.

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288383)

It's not partisan trouble, it's a question of whether the man in charge is the man in charge.

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (1)

tester13 (186772) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288347)

nah it happens all the time. I would probably do the same thing. It would be very hard to memorize a speech in the short of time. All it is is a aural telaprompter.

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (2)

sharkey (16670) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288363)

He wasn't the only one. Most of the "official" presenters I heard yesterday were not giving well-rehearsed speeches, and sounded like they were leaning on the prompters pretty heavily. I listened to a spokeslady for, IIRC, the State Dept. on my way home, and her delivery was punctuated by the sounds of large sheets being turned/flipped/moved. I figured they were using flashcards, instead of spending extra time and expense getting teleprompt equipment set up.

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (0, Troll)

kiwaiti (95197) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288374)

I for one wouldn't be surprised:

  1. Bush cannot be trusted to spell his own name
  2. even if he could, whatever he is about to say should be double-checked, as it carries a lot of weight, especially in such circumstances as these.
Kiwaiti

Re:Speaking of PVRs... (1, Redundant)

toast0 (63707) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288375)

i don't know if this is true, but if so, it can't be anyworse than him reading off a teleprompter. Perhaps the teleprompter was down.

Aamazon.com tops $1G for Red Cross (0, Informative)

Eagle7 (111475) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288266)

Over 36,000 people have contributed over $1,000,000 today. Wow - amazing. Get there and give money if you haven't!

What happened to safe.millennium.berkeley.edu? (1, Offtopic)

rokicki (132380) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288274)

Anyone know what went wrong here? They've got fat pipes and lots of fast machines, and Berkeley in general is fully reachable.

Looks fine from here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288376)

This site is a service for everyone who may have been near the terrorist attacks on September 11 and their family members and friends. Our thoughts and emotions are with you all, and we only hope that this can provide some measure of help in these difficult times. Thank you for your many messages of support.

Sites with a similar purpose are also being run by Prodigy, Ken Shan, Disaster Message Service, Atlantic Highlands, NJ, Rian Schmidt, and ny.com. You may want to check them as well.

If you know someone who is safe, please submit a report on them.

If you are looking for someone, please use the search page.

Please submit reports on anyone you have spoken to or heard from who may have been near the incidents. There may be many concerned relatives and friends looking for them.

I want to report that someone is safe.
I want to find out if someone is safe.

We do not have any official sources of our own and cannot guarantee the accuracy of any of this information. We rely only on reports collected from you, our users, so please be honest and accurate.

This site is hosted on the Millennium Cluster at the University of California, Berkeley.
For questions about this site, contact Ka-Ping Yee at ping@lfw.org.

Article 5 (1)

Cephas Keken (224723) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288275)

What is article five, or where could I find
full documentation on it?

Re:Article 5 (5, Informative)

Ghoser777 (113623) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288294)

ARTICLE 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all, and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective selfdefence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually, and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

F-bacher

FBI Head says no arrests related to bombings (4, Informative)

AntiFreeze (31247) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288277)

A short while ago, there was a press conference from the Pentagon. Rumsfield and the director of the FBI both spoke. The Director said that no arrests have yet been made of any suspects. There were some "questionings" -- an uninformative word to me -- but no arrests.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Tanks to all contributors (2, Insightful)

hhg (200613) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288278)

I would like to thank all of you who have contributed with your comments here on slashdot in regards to this case in the last two days. You have been an invaluble source for extensive information far beyond what any comercial news-source could ever be. You have given a human perspective to the unimaginable.

Again, thank you. And God bless us all.

Ah man NATO... (2, Flamebait)

Ghoser777 (113623) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288283)

Not only did the terrorists bombing piss us off really bad (a it should), so we're already more than likely to go bomb anything remotely related to the terrorists (well, ur state was adjacent to theirs, but now we also got NATO wanting to get into the action. So barring UN intervention of some kind (I doubt it, although I don't know if we'd listen to them anyway), we're going to find a terrorist to blame and bomb the hell out of him and all his associates.

Yeah, we may not find the real terrorist, but we'll make sure we can find someone else to blame. The government has that legitimacy thing and competence thing to maintain.

What, the government would never do that? Hey, maybe they're all honest johns in D.C., but if anyone has ever read Fahrenheit 451, you know that the public doesn't want the government to catch THE terrorist, they want them to catch someone that the government say is the terrorist.

F-bacher

5th Plane theory? (2, Interesting)

gordzilla (97994) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288287)

Maybe I missed it, but has there been a confirmation about a 5th plane enroute to Colarado? This "mutual defense clause" does that mean that it's possible that Norad has been damaged and the U.S. is blind in the air?

I'm watchin CNN now and there's a reported talking about a single unidentified plane flying over NY and to me it looks like one of the new unmanned spy plane's.

Re:5th Plane theory? (1)

rabbits77 (453747) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288358)

Norad was designed to take the brunt of a nearby nuclear strike. Even if Norad was hit, the destruction would be minor and loss of life only incurred if someone were to have been outside around the impact area. That said, I doubt highly that this 'Fifth plane' theory is true. The FUD is still flying and will be for a while.

Re:5th Plane theory? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288373)

The odds of a commercial jet liner damaging NORAD is laughable. NORAD command is 1) Not completely located in Colorado 2) Facilities are hardened against nuclear attacks.

Re:5th Plane theory? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288392)

dont know about the 5th plane theory but out here in Denver, their were supposedly f-16's patrolling denver and the flatirons. god, i hope nothing happened at norad.

What is a PVR? (1)

dfelznic (8812) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288289)

Hello, The story mentions pvrs what are they?

This is time for the nation to unite, donate to the red cross trough amazon [amazon.com] , and give blood [redcross.org] ...

Re:What is a PVR? (1)

sulli (195030) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288311)

personal video recorder, like a Tivo or Replay

Re:What is a PVR? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288315)

Personal Video Recorders. i.e. hard drives for video, such as Tivo.

Re:What is a PVR? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288318)

Personal Video Recorder.
Like a videotape recorder, but geekier.

Re:What is a PVR? (2)

Ghoser777 (113623) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288331)

Personal Video Recorder.

Atleast that's what google keeps coming up with, and it makes sense in the context of the article.

F-bacher

Re:What is a PVR? (1)

Averye0 (194295) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288354)

PVR's are Personal Video Recorders. a la TiVO and other such devices that record video onto an internal hard drive. The video equivalent to mp3 players.

Leftists have weakened our will to fight. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288291)

All of you geeks should get back to writing shitty code and wacking off to "The Matrix"

If you are lucky, the Taleban might use you as bitches when they take over the US

it seems we could do more to help the effort. (2, Insightful)

compuslave (521127) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288292)

with the enourmous amount of hackers and computer specialists in the slashdot community, it seems that this community could be used to identify the responsible parties, and aid the authorities. I am not asking for vigilante action, but maybe some targeted information gathering. I'm thinking is terms of bots to collect information and a central database to gather and mine data. after important data has been verified (prevent passing on false rumors) then passing the results to the authorities. We've got all this computing power. It's time to use it for something more important than Quake.

Curious (0)

Kiro (220724) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288296)

It's a curious phenomenon, suicidal Arabs kamikazi into 2 buildings in NY, and in the end who gets the blame? The Jews. But these stupid people don't realize that the Arabs hate Israel because of the West, not the other way around. Their enemy is the West, symbolized by the USA and its ally Israel in the Middle East.

Ph1r57 B0mb!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288300)

Here it comes...

Slashdot's coverage (4, Insightful)

sien (35268) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288301)

I'd just like to say that I've used slashdot a bit over the past two days and I've been impressed.
Of course there has been wild speculation that was inaccurate - but there was also this everywhere.
The accounts of survivors here and some of the links provided have been really good.
What does everyone else thing of slashdot's coverage ?

Friday's "Worldwide Caution" from Dept. of State (5, Interesting)

Memophage (88273) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288303)

I find it interesting that this past Friday, (September 7th) the U.S. Department of State issued the following "Worldwide Caution" travel bulletin for the benefit of US travelers:

"Over the last several months, the U.S. Government has learned that U.S. citizens and interests abroad may be at increased risk of a terrorist action from extremist groups. In addition, we have received unconfirmed information that terrorist actions may be taken against U.S. military facilities and/or establishments frequented by U.S. military personnel in Korea and Japan. We are also concerned about information we received in May 2001 that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from extremist groups with links to Usama Bin Ladin's Al-Qaida organization. In the past, such individuals have not distinguished between official and civilian targets. As always, we take this information seriously. U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert."

[From: http://travel.state.gov/wwc1.html [state.gov] ]

The U.S. Department of State apparently knew that something was up, just not exactly what.

We CAN punish the hijackers! (2, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288308)

Thanks to modern technology, if we can recover DNA samples, we can clone them and put their clones on trial!

Re:We CAN punish the hijackers! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288334)

That is without doubt the funniest thing I've heard all week - thanks!

Airport Security... Is that enough? (3, Interesting)

kstumpf (218897) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288313)

I'm glad to hear that airport security for passenger flights will be increased. I haven't seen mention, though, of non-passenger flights. There are other planes in the air, such as Fedex and UPS. Surely these planes make cross-continental flights and carry alot of fuel, making them dangerous weapons should terrorists be at the controls. Has anyone seen this point raised yet?

MSNBC Article on BinLaden and CIA (2, Informative)

wdavies (163941) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288314)

This article [msnbc.com] links the CIA with Bin Laden... Scary? I saw Orrin mouthing off yesterday as well.

This link was discovered via Slashdot, via Michael Moore's page.

Winton

I get the following from the URL (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288338)

The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.

Open the www.msnbc.com home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
Click the Back button to try another link.
Click Search to look for information on the Internet.

HTTP 400 - Bad Request
Internet Explorer

Video Tape / PVR / VCD (1)

ImaLamer (260199) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288322)

I've been recording everything on TV for two days now. My GF taped some 90210 on accident, but I taped over that.

I would like to have quality video to put on VCD, so if anyone can point me to somewhere that I can download video, that would be great. Streaming video is nice, but I own a TV and get cable - we don't need that.

There is a mirror of some video at my public FTP site: ftp://ftp.one.net/pub/users/joe/ [one.net]

Anything that is pointed out to me will be uploaded to that site.

This is something that I believe shouldn't be forgotten - let's keep these records.

Saving PVR feeds (1)

iamcadaver (104579) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288328)

Here is what I submitted to /.

The images in all our minds from Tuesday are powerful. The images in our PVRs are 'real'. I'm scared that our memories of the devastation, of our Unity, and of our humanity will be replaced with 5 second news-bytes and cut-shots. The streams in your PVR's may well never be seen again if they are erased, because the media will sanatize and shorten the vids to fit between commercials forever-more.

I'm asking for discussion, here on /., about preserving these feeds, about it's copyright implications, and about the greater good of preserving these memories forever.

Pilots were trained at Huffman (1)

hether (101201) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288329)

On the radio the FBI said the terrorists who were pilots, several of the people in the groups, were trained at Huffman Aviation in Daytona Beach, FL. It sounded like the training had been some time ago and thats why they believe they had been planning this for quite some time.

http://www.huffmanaviation.com

Re:Pilots were trained at Huffman (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288403)

On another board, some Microsofties were bragging that a copy of MS Flight Sim 2000 Pro was found in the terrorist's car.

Airport security (5, Informative)

Pope (17780) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288336)

I've been hearing about the proposal to beef up security for domestic flights in the USA: bravo!
I have flown many international flights, but only 3 or 4 times within the USA, and quite frankly security always seemed a little lax, even compared to Canada. This is not to say that airport officals are directly to blame for this tragedy, but one can also look at it pragmatically: there are HUGE numbers of people flying within the USA at all times, and regular delays only seem to piss people off. What will happen now if the security becomes much stricter? I'm afraid we'll all have to deal with it when the time comes, but it's not going to be a pretty sight trying to process that many people.

In more positive news, many hundreds of Torontonians have turned out to donate blood! (OK, me included) Please disregard the troll who has been posting that the Red Cross has lots of blood: it's been a known fact for the past year that supplies have been *very* low both here and in the US. Go for it if you can! Even if your blood is not used for this emergency. blood is ALWAYS in demand, and will NOT get thrown out like the troll has implied. It all gets stored and sorted, never has there been a surplus!

Thanks.

Pittsburgh Passengers Tried To Stop Terrorists (4, Informative)

mimbleton (467957) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288343)

http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/1m/www.wash ingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19050-2001Sep12.ht ml

Why the Surprise? (0, Troll)

loosenut (116184) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288348)

I'm re-posting this because I think it has some important points.

The following article was written by Rick Giombetti, from Seattle, WA. Posted with the author's permission.

Why The Surprise?:

"I Want To Be A Pilot So That One Day I Can Bomb Americans!"

Who saw it coming? [counterpunch.org]

There is nothing more ridiculous than listening to people express "shock" and "surprise" at the multiple airplane hijackings and terror attacks on September 11. I'm surprised an attack against the U.S. of this magnitude hasn't happened sooner. One nation can only treat the world as a slave plantation and its peoples as slaves for so long, before the slaves finally rise up. There isn't a region of the world the U.S. hasn't pillaged and raped to some degree over the past 150 years. In a world with 6 billion people, there are always going to be a few who resort to individual and group terrorism to protest the policies of a global empire like the U.S.

Could there have been a better selection of targets to protest U.S. financial hegemony and military violence? First, it was Scam Central: The two 110-story World Trade Center towers, the most prominent symbols of U.S. multinational corporate capitalism. Then it was Violence Central: The Pentagon, home of the badly misnamed Department of "Defense." These attacks are being called "cowardly" by U.S. politicians and media pundits. Cowardly? Compared to the U.S. pilots who dropped bombs from over 15,000 ft. above Serbia for 78 days in 1999, safely out of the range of Serb gunners on the ground and against a nation with no air force to counter the U.S.? I don't think so.

"What balls," is all I have to say. These terror attackers risked being caught and possibly beaten and tortured while in custody. They sacrificed themselves in what may have been the boldest terror attacks in history. And who has ever turned airplanes into bombs for taking out office towers and government buildings? Yeah, it was a group of mean fuckers who did what they did on September 11, but they sure as hell weren't cowards.

Don't get me wrong. I despise individual and group terrorism not only because it causes loss of life. It also represents the ultimate rejection of mass struggle. Now the job of well-meaning U.S. activists just got a whole hell of a lot harder. We can expect some more Bill of Rights shredding legislation and more violent crackdowns on protest because of the terror attacks. We can also expect people to not want to hear peace activist's demands for an end to the destructive and violent policies of the U.S. all over the world. "Show some respect for the victims and victim's families," some people will tell us. If now isn't the time to demand an end to U.S.-backed violence around the world, then when will it be a good time to do so? With the U.S. government preparing(and most likely already carrying out) a fresh round of bombings around the world in retaliation for the terror attacks, now isn't the time to be quiet about U.S. violence against defenseless people. The eleven year U.S.-led war of bombs from the air and draconian sanctions via the U.N. against the people or Iraq is just one example of the kinds of policies we shouldn't back down from denouncing.

When I was still living Fort Collins, Colorado two years ago I attended a talk by the wonderful peace activist Kathy Kelly of Voices In The Wilderness(VITW). VITW has been campaigning against the bombing and U.S. imposed sanctions regime against the people of Iraq for about a decade now. VITW has courageously and openly defied U.S. government enforcement of the unjust U.N. sanctions by smuggling badly needed humanitarian aid into Iraq over the past decade. Kelly offered the small audience who came to see her speak that October evening a chilling anecdote about an Iraqi boy she met while making one of her many humanitarian tours of Iraq. The single digit aged boy described to a crowd at a gathering what he wanted to be when he grew up. He said, "I want to be a pilot so that one day I can bomb Americans!"

That anecdote has haunted me ever since and I knew it was only a matter of time before that angry Iraqi boy's apocalyptic wish would come true. It's a chilling sentiment but it's completely understandable. The only world that poor Iraqi boy and countless other children his age have ever known, if said boy is even alive today, is one of U.S. bombings and sanction's imposed misery. Yet this pre-adolescent boy is(was?) sophisticated enough to figure out that it's the U.S. government that is ordering the bombings and imposing the devastating sanctions against his country, not Saddam Husein. Perhaps it's time for the majority of the U.S. adult population to match this Iraqi boy's sophistication and start demanding that their government end the bombings and the sanctions regime.

The combination of bombings and sanctions has led to a death toll in Iraq over the past decade that easily tops 1 million. I haven't seen much, if any, concern in the mass media about this horrible U.S. caused suffering in Iraq. This is the same mass media that treated the intense six week bombing campaign against Iraq at the beginning of 1991 like it was a video game where no Iraqis were being injured or killed(talk about disrespecting the victims of massive military violence!). The bombings have never stopped. Yet about the only time the media covers new bombings is when the president is looking for a boost in his poll numbers and holds a press conference after the fresh round of bombing begins.

The sanctions aren't even a topic of debate in the mass media. Try to find some commentary anywhere about Thomas Nagy's September Progressive article, which demonstrates how the U.S. government intentionally used the U.N. sanctions against Iraqi to degrade the country's water supply. Meanwhile, peace activists like Kathy Kelly are hardly mainstays in the media pundit circus. However, every time a U.S. president orders bombings of countries like Iraq or Serbia the mass media gives plenty of airtime to retired military officers for the purpose of fanning the flames of war.

Now peace activists are going to be asked to shut their mouths about U.S. violence around the world out of respect for the thousands of victims of the September 11 terror attacks. What a bunch of bullshit. I say, honor the memory of the victims of September 11: Denounce and oppose U.S. violence everywhere.

Advanced Citizenship (1)

creep (150035) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288349)

#---------------
#The following comment in NO WAY condones terrorism
#---------------
It is a shame that it has taken a tragedy like this to compel us to whip our heads around and notice what is happening. *Complete freedom* is not an easy thing to master; America is advanced citizenship. You really have to want it. I, personally, feel like I am not as patriotic or stalwart as I can be.

Unfortunately for us, those who have no regard for human life will always exist. A lack of understanding abounds in the world today, with people who feel like those who are different are bad, and anyone whose ideas and values don't agree with their own need to be exterminated.

One of the only differences between the people who organized this act of terror and the next person you meet isn't the willingness to give up one's life for a certain cause, but the complete disregard for the life of others. I feel strongly about certain values; it is safe to say that I would die for them. But I would never put the lives of others in danger just because of something that I believe in.

North Atlantic Treaty (5, Informative)

Compulawyer (318018) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288364)

I believe the full text of the treaty (including Article 5) is here [nato.int]

Or copy and paste: http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm

IMAGE and VIDEO Mirror tarbars (2, Informative)

Harper (5397) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288366)

I have set up a rather extensive set of image and video mirrors.
http://www.watership.org/media/
http://wtc.frack.org/
Please mirror these.

I have made tar balls of the images and the movies so everyone will be able to set up their own mirror.

http://watership.org/media/images.tar.gz -(26985k)
http://watership.org/media/movies.tar.gz -(200189k)

i am not sure on the copyright issues. But anyone is welcome to dload and set up content mirrors.

Press conference -- no one arrested in conjunction (2)

garcia (6573) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288370)

According to a press conference on CNN (dont remember which one) no one has been *arrested* yet in conjunction w/the attacks.

Yes we all know that they took into custody some people that they believe are linked to Ladin and may have had something to do w/the attacks but they know apparently little at this point.

I heard rumors that they are checking into an e-mail account that was apparently used to communicate the messages about the attack.

On a side note -- I live in an apartment complex of several buildings. My building and the one closest to me have many flags hanging from the balconies. I urge everyone to not only donate their blood (there was a 2.5 hour wait this morning in Toledo, OH) but to display an American flag for the lives lost in this tragic event.

God Bless America.

kids (-1)

isudoru (452928) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288379)

I know a lot of youngsters in Sweden that actually not like the other kids has waved this off but has gotten really involved in this and tries to get as much info about this, and still i've heard really smart, and of course really dumb, remarks from young people. Got some news this morning from a friend of mine that the gold price jumped and he insured how this looks very much like a warscenario, financially.

I just wanted to mention how this has affected everyone, and some even more than others. I am one of the ones mentioned last.

My condolences goes to the people in the US

War (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288394)

Action items:

1) drop leaflets on enemy capitol city, warning to surrender or evacuate on foot

2) kill from the air anyone not on foot

3) after 24 hours, nuke city

4) rinse and repeat with other cities

5) stop when surrender occurs.

6) try those responsible

7) give massive amounts of aid to rebuild destroyed infrastructure

8) congratulate yourself on having a new ally

Air force one - queries... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288395)

Many news sources are now reporting that Air Force One was considered directly under threat during the awful events of yesterday. What does this mean? It was in Florida at the time. Were their any attempts made? Any extra planes involved? Theories would be welcome of course.

Hope for a united coalition (1)

garoush (111257) | more than 12 years ago | (#2288396)

Just like during the Gulf War, this incident is going to test how well the world will react. The result will either be another strong coalition with the majority of the world nations united against those few exterminates or (God forbid) WWIII.

Religion (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2288397)

It's high time to call for an end to all religion. Atheists value human life most highly, no matter what christian/muslims/jews/ whatever say.

As an atheist, I believe that we've only got one shot at life, that placing our trust in any "power higher than ourselves" is idiotic. We make our own destiny.

DOWN WITH RELIGON! I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR IMAGINARY FRIENDS, ALLAH or JEHOVAH, NEITHER EXIST.

The terrorist's actions are all the worse, becuase they're fighting for an incredibly stupid cause - they misguidedly beleive (like many americans) in some "higher power".

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