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Adam Fedor of GNUstep Says Stuff

CmdrTaco posted more than 13 years ago | from the stuff-about-things dept.

GNUStep 166

JgiSaw writes "GNUstep provides an Object-Oriented application development framework and tool set for use on a wide variety of computer platforms. It is based on the original OpenStep specification provided by NeXT, Inc. (now owned by Apple and endorced into MacOSX). OSNews is hosting an interview with Adam Fedor, of the GNUstep project, where Adam mentions among others that GnuStep has support for the MacOSX API too, which will make porting MacOSX applications to Linux much easier."

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fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290252)

fp

Re:fp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290383)

I just heard sad news on talk radio - Horror/fiction writer Stephen King was found dead in his Maine house this morning. I'm sure we'll all miss him - even if you didn't read his books you've probably enjoyed one of his movies. Truly an American icon.

Re:fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290457)

I just heard sad news on talk radio - Business/office building World Trade Center was found collapsed in it's New York City yesterday afternoon. I'm sure we'll all miss it - even if you didn't crash an airplane into it, you've probably enjoyed parking a car bomb in the basement. Truly an American building.

DCR (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290257)

2nd post! DCR Spam Cannon!

Nice Headline (0, Offtopic)

Scrag (137843) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290258)

When the planes crashed into the world trade center the headline should have been "Planes do stuff"

WTF does 'endorced' mean?!? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290269)

Man, the inmates are running the asylum around here, at least as far as editing is concerned.

Stuff? (0, Insightful)

mrmag00 (200868) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290275)

He said Stuff? Thats absolutely great! There are so few interviews on 'stuff' out there, we definately need more quality work such as this.

Oh well, I'm sure they are tierd after yesterday.

holy shit, (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290280)

this is the most useless title for the most useless story I have seen on slashdot in the last few weeks.

Jokes (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290282)

I thought after yesterday there'd be plenty of great jokes up here.
Sad fuckers. Here's some we just (de)composed...

How many New Yorkers does it take to change a light bulb?
God knows, they keep jumping out the window when it gets too hot

What's the number one drink served on United Airlines?
Flaming Manhatten

What music do they play in the elevator in the WTC?
Jump and It's Raining Men

What colour were the pilots eyes?
Blue. One blew this way the other blew that way

What team does bin Laden support?
The New York Jets

Who are the fastest readers in the world?
New Yorkers. Some of them go through 110 stories in 5 seconds

Where do Americans go on vacation?
All over Manhatten

I guess that the NYPD and NYFD are indeed New York's finest now -- you could strain them through a sieve!

How many Americans died in the WTC yesterday?
Who gives a fuck

Re:Jokes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290310)

I hope you die who ever posted this.

MOD THIS THE FUCK DOWN (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290315)

down to -2, make an acception

Re:MOD THIS THE FUCK DOWN (-1)

Pr0n K1ng (160688) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290520)

Learn to spell, you stupid shit.

It's "exception." There you go, I gave you a free one.

Re:Jokes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290336)

(Score: +5, Sure To Get Stupid Yanks Angry)

Your Pal,
Osama

Re:Jokes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290390)

that's pretty funny.

Here's another one (distributed under the GNU GPL, version 2.0 or later):

The suicide bomber accidently turned on the intercom and said, "I want a cup of coffee and a piece of ass before I crash this plane for the glory of Islam!"

The flight attendent heard this, and ran up front to see what was happening, and a little old lady yelled out after her, "Don't forget the coffee!"

Kill The Arabs. Kill the Sand Niggers. Kill. Kill. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290747)

Kill Islam. Kill Mohammedans by any means possible: Death to Islam.

Re:Jokes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290820)

LOL,

I know it is immoral, but it IS funny :-)

FAS!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290283)

Is it me, or does this whole thing sound like a

FIRST ARTICAL SUMISSION!!!

(Yes, I know it's misspelled.)

macos x api (3, Insightful)

geomcbay (263540) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290287)

Its kind of cool that it supports the OS X API, but how useful is that in practice? There's hardly any apps that use the OS X APIs right now, and of the ones that exist the developers haven't really shown much interest in supporting Linux...

Re:macos x api (3, Informative)

Noer (85363) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290300)

Well, there are some quality apps such as Omniweb and the Stone suite, but this won't help bring big-name *commercial* apps to Linux (apps such as Photoshop, MS Office, etc) as those are mostly written to the Carbon APIs, rather than the Cocoa APIs that OpenStep is related to.

Re:macos x api (1)

iphayd (170761) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290442)

Of course there are already some Cocoa apps that might be a good blend with Linux.

FileMaker Pro Server is the biggest one I can think of.

Re:macos x api (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290301)

maybe the idea is to be ahead of the game instead of playing the typical open source catch up game.

Re:macos x api (2)

Tachys (445363) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290673)

maybe the idea is to be ahead of the game instead of playing the typical open source catch up game.

They are trying to what? I hope RMS and co. put a stop to this!

Re:macos x api (2)

Ian Bicking (980) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290724)

Not really. OpenStep/NextStep is pretty old school. Early nineties kind of thing, and I believe Objective C was designed at around the same time as C++ (early 80s?). All of these, in turn, have a very close relation to Smalltalk, which was designed in the 70s and hasn't changed dramatically since Smalltalk-80.

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not good stuff.

Re:macos x api (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290313)

It looks as if 95% of the stuff that has or will ship for OS X will be using the Carbon API, not the OpenStep/Cocoa API.

There used to be a small base of NeXT development houses, but my understanding is that most of them have folded, been bought up, or switched focus. Too bad Apple didn't buy NeXT back in 1993-4, they might have been able to save the developer base.

You should think the other way around (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290347)

That your GNUStep applications can easily be ported to MacOS X.

Re:You should think the other way around (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290371)

considering the market size of either Mac or Linux ... all i can say is woop-dee-fucking-do ..

why should i (as a corporation) force my developers to learn a new language for some mythical supposed "performance increase" ?

granted personally, i love to learn new languages and new api's .. just for fun.. but would a company really do that?
i seriously doubt it ..
there's no profit motive in it ..

--vat
asha_man1@hotmail.com

Re:You should think the other way around (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290403)

Objective C (especially used with the NeXTStep/OpenStep API) does make coding a breeze. The OOPness is more similar to java than C++ (actually, it's more similar to smalltalk, since that's what it's based on).

There are still a number of Next and Former NeXT developers who can tell you how elegant it is.

Re:You should think the other way around (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290495)

"I (as a corporation)"? WTF! Wasn't it supposed to be "I (as an indivudual)"? Who said anything about corporations? Why can't programs be done by hobbists, that happen to like both Mac and Linux? Don't we all hate rethorical questions?

Re:You should think the other way around (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290661)

Yeah, post anonymously with my email address , windows fagoot. You are probably the foreign bastard who blew up the wtc and the octagon. Damn you H1B workers over here to code on win2ghey.

Re:macos x api (1)

mr100percent (57156) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290394)

There aren't many at the moment, beacause they really became finalized in march, but there are some things like FileMaker Pro that are completely cocoa, and work impressively well.

Oh, and Maya is completely Cocoa. Schweet app, I'd reccomend trying it out, frggin cool.

More confusion on Carbon apps (2, Interesting)

TheInternet (35082) | more than 13 years ago | (#2291014)

There aren't many at the moment, beacause they really became finalized in march, but there are some things like FileMaker Pro that are completely cocoa, and work impressively well. Oh, and Maya is completely Cocoa.

This is the fifth post or so that has named Carbon apps, and claimed they were written in Cocoa. I wish I knew what the source of misinformation was.

I have repeatedly been told from people that should know (Maya fanatics) that Maya is definitely a Carbon app. This was done because they needed to use C++ frameworks (Cocoa is currently ObjC and Java only). I don't know about FileMaker, but I would be pretty surprised if it was Cocoa. Who told you these were Cocoa apps?

- Scott

Re:macos x api (1)

J. J. Ramsey (658) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290626)

Remember, Mac OS X is essentially NeXTSTEP. Since GNUStep is an implementation of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, supporting the OS X API is a natural outgrowth of that. The usefulness of supporting Mac OS X isn't a matter of being practical per se, rather just a matter of being properly NeXTish.

Lineage (3, Informative)

TheInternet (35082) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290998)

Remember, Mac OS X is essentially NeXTSTEP

Perhaps if you look at it in terms of only Mach/BSD and Cocoa. There is tons of stuff there that was never in NeXT, though: Carbon, Quartz, system-level QuickTime usage, AppleScript/AppleEvents, I/O Kit, Mac OS 9 compatibility.

It borrows some lower-level from NextStep, some higher level stuff from Mac OS, and makes something brand new. GNUStep apparently only attempts to address the NeXT side of the world, but a lot of the mainstream items will make heavy use of the Mac side of things.

- Scott

Re:macos x api (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2291000)

> Its kind of cool that it supports the OS X API, but how useful is that in practice?

Very usefull. Dev environments on linux sucks. GNUstep IB and PB are not on par with OSX ones. There are hardly any OPENSTEP or YB developers left. All the FoundationKit/AppKit developers are on OSX now, and dozen of wanabee developers discover ObjC every week.

The OSX dev population outnumber the GNUstep one by a couple of orders of magnitude. Don't you think it is worthwhile to support OSX ?

[of course, GNUstep should target _windows_, in addition to OSX. This would have tremendous interest. But, with the manpower they have, the GNUstep guys already did a very good job]

Cheers,

--fred

Native apps (2, Interesting)

TheInternet (35082) | more than 13 years ago | (#2291023)

There's hardly any apps that use the OS X APIs

There are actually quite a few brand name apps that have been ported to Mac OS X, and many more are in progress. Probably more than people outside the Mac community would guess. Corel is on the ball -- Bryce and Painter are ported, Microsoft has already released Explorer and Office 10 is almost ready. Macromedia already has Freehand out, and both it and Adobe are working furiously to port everything. Other stuff that's done: Quicken, Maya, quite a few games, and tons of other stuff that I'm forgetting.

These have all been ported to Mac OS X APIs. The problem is (for GNUStep users, anyway), these apps use the Carbon APIs, not Cocoa. Cocoa is GNUStep's counterpart.

- Scott

But ... (2, Funny)

Wordsmith (183749) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290298)

Did he say stuff that matters?

Re:But ... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290361)

At least he didn't spout the usual pro-terrorist Slashdot drivel...

Says Stuff? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290328)

Geez, you must have labored for hours over that pithy headline. Brief and accurate.

Help? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290329)

This is boring. I want some overdramatic and poorly written essays filled with teen angst and stupid pseudointellecutal mumbo jumbo. Where is JonKatz when you need him?

Your Pal,
Osama

Re:Help? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290412)

Jon Katz is busy compiling comments so he can put them into a book and sell them

hmmm (-1)

jaroca (157689) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290338)

According to Nostradamus, the first two anti-Christs were extremely evil, and history has shown this to be so; however, Nostradamus speaks of a third anti-Christ who is more hideous than all the others combined. Some say Sadaam Hussein, the dictator from Iraq, could be this evil tyrant. Others say that he has not yet appeared. What does Nostradamus say about this third anti-Christ? First, Nostradamus tells us he will come from the Middle East.

Out of the country of Greater Arabia

Shall be born a strong master of Mohammed...

He will enter Europe wearing a blue turban.

He will be the terror of mankind.

Never more horror.

Here, Nostradamus says that a man from Greater Arabia will lead his forces on an invasion through Europe. This invasion will start a third world war that will be far worse than all the other wars put together (Guentte). When will all this take place? In one quatrain Nostradamus gives us an exact date in which the war will be well under way.

In the year 1999 and seven months

From the sky will come the great King of Terror.

He will bring back to life the King of the Mongols;

Before and after war reigns.

Nostradamus predicts the war will begin shortly before the year 1999 (Roberts 191). He also tells us how long the war will last.

The war will last seven and twenty years. (Guentte)

Nostradamus says that the war will be so terrible that the world will come face to face with final annihilation. Here, he implies that the war might involve some kind of horrible weapon, possibly nuclear. Nostradamus tells what the first target will be.

The sky will burn at forty-five degrees.

Fire approaches the great new city.

In this phrase, Nostradamus refers to a great city in the new world of America near forty-five degrees latitude. Experts agree this could only be New York.

By fire he will destroy their city,

A cold and cruel heart,

Blood will pour,

Mercy to none. (Guentte)

Although Nostradamus 's predictions for our future sound frightening he does give us some hope by telling us how this third world war will end. He says it will end as a result of an unexpected alliance.

When those of the Northern Pole are united,

In the East will be great fear and dread...

One day the two great leaders will be friends;

Their great powers will be seen to grow.

The New Land will be at the height of its power:

To the man of blood the number is reported.

The new land was a common term used by Nostradamus to refer to what we now call America. The countries of the northern pole could be Russia and the United States. We have recently seen the breakdown of Communism in Russia and an increasing friendship between Russia and the U.S. (Reader's Digest 515).

http://boisdarc.tamu-commerce.edu/www/w/willmc/n os tra.htm

Re:hmmm (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290434)

Hmm, some american dick stroking going on here. It's been a while since grade school geography, but I think that the Canadians and the Russians would be more accurate.
Angry White Guy

ugh (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290362)

3. Where they any NeXT applications ported over to the GnuSTEP and Linux?

Good spelling job; use a spell checker next time.

Re:ugh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290374)

5. Does GnuStep 0.7 changes will be incorporated into a newer version of WindowMaker?

What the hell? Horrid grammar too. The author shouldn't have quit his/her ESL class.

Re:ugh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290385)

6. Does the GnuSTEP API has similarities with the MacOSX API?

suggestion (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290415)

to make things easier, let's just all post examples of correct grammar and spelling from the article.

Re:suggestion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290472)

The author is Greek. She has done an extraoridinarily good job at OSNews and BeNews, but that does not change the fact that english is not her first language.

GNUStep (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290369)

I haven't used GNUStep recently, but I can tell you that, unlike KDE or GNOME, GNUStep has the capability to bring real applications to linux land.

There are a lot of NeXT developers who would love to port their applications. It would have been a real coupe if GNUStep was ready for prime time before OS X, but, oh well.

My only concern over it was that it used that dog display ghostscript. If you use Solaris, the Sun XWindow server has builtin support for display postscript. It's too bad the Open Source community has a "{XWindows|Display Ghostscript | | etc} sucks, but it's good enough, so why try to build a replacement" mentality. Fortunately, there are people like Adam who say "Fuck that, I don;t want to wallow in mediocracy".

Long live GNUStep!!

Re:GNUStep (2)

Ian Bicking (980) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290734)

It's too bad the Open Source community has a "{XWindows|Display Ghostscript | | etc} sucks, but it's good enough, so why try to build a replacement" mentality. Fortunately, there are people like Adam who say "Fuck that, I don;t want to wallow in mediocracy".
Please, expand. I remember seeing some mention of a native X rendering, but it was presented like it was just a stopgap until DGS was ready. Is Adam working on improving DGS, or somehow replacing it?

Forget porting, how good is the API? (4, Flamebait)

astrashe (7452) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290408)

How does this graphics portion of the API compare to MFC?

I'm not a strong GUI programmer, but I've heard people say that MFC is more robust and powerful than the APIs we have in Linux. But I've also heard people rave about programming NeXT.

Is anyone here able to put ideology aside and give a comparison based on real experience?

Re:Forget porting, how good is the API? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290445)

I can give you an unbiased opinion:

NeXT API is a lot like java (well thought out OO design), but without the heavy abstraction to support the native UI underneath, and without the bytecode crap.

MFC is like having sex while wearing 7 condoms.

Most XWindows widget sets (the exception being KDE) are like a rusted out '83 station wagon, hed together with duct tape and bondo, carrying half a dozen pimple faced teenagers. The floors are covered with evidence of fast-food drive thru visits, and there's a funky odor. Chances are, the driver will stall it at the next stop sign, and the muffler needs replacing. The occupants, however, are glad they don't have to walk.

Re:Forget porting, how good is the API? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290528)

Thanks, that't the funniest thing I've heard all day.

Re:Forget porting, how good is the API? (1, Flamebait)

popeyethesailor (325796) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290704)

"MFC is like having sex while wearing 7 condoms."

Then Java probably is like having sex while wearing a baseball glouse ?

Re:Forget porting, how good is the API? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290720)

MFC is like having sex while wearing 7 condoms.

...and they are on various fingers and toes, not where they are supposed to be.

Re:Forget porting, how good is the API? (3, Funny)

affenmann (195152) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290977)


MFC is like having sex while wearing 7 condoms.

...and they are on various fingers and toes, not where they are supposed to be.

...and all of them have small annoying holes.

Re:Forget porting, how good is the API? (2)

jcr (53032) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290916)

>How does this graphics portion of the API compare to MFC?

Well, in a nutshell: the AppKit is a brilliant piece of work, making the development of GUI objects easier than I've seen in any other development environment.

The MFC is the usual shabby knock-off of MacApp (an earlier, but much poorer example of trying to apply OO principles to GUI design.)

-jcr

Why can't they come up with a fucking name... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290409)

For god's sake... recursive names are NOT FUCKING FUNNY!

Christ, make it stop.

Re:Why can't they come up with a fucking name... (1, Offtopic)

NonSequor (230139) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290498)

Hey! That could be used to make a great name. GNFF's not Fucking Funny.

the genius of the NeXT api (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290426)

One thing was done real well. Principle of least astonishment. You were never surprised (or angered) by the way a method call behaved. Everything acted exactly how you would expect it.

That's a good way to put it. (2)

jcr (53032) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290930)

I would add, that the NeXT frameworks had a remarkable degree of consistency in naming and functionality across classes. If NSArray had an -enumerator method, so would NSSet.

After a few weeks of using the AppKit and Foundation Kit, I found that I could very often guess what a method was called, and be right.

-jcr

typinggg (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290430)

holyy shit!1 I have neverr scene such poore typping and speling!

There are major apps... coming soon ;-) (4, Interesting)

Ffakr (468921) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290451)

Well, I'd have to take issue with the claim that there are no native cocoa apps.

This may be technically true, there are some very nice Mac OSX only apps that although not 'big name' are none the less quite nice. The products at Omnigroup [omnigroup.com] are all nice. Stone Studios products are nice but they could use a nice how to book.

On the near horizon, Adobe Illustrator 10 and Quark 5 are nearing release (both demonstrated at MWNY in July) and they are both, to the best of my knowledge, Cocoa native. They both look VERY, VERY cool.

Office for OSX will also be Cocoa native... not that MS will want to empower Linux, but I believe that MS departments will go for profit where ever it is found... Just look at the Mac market back around 96 when every was SURE that the Mac was dead... MS releases a PPC native Office, mainly because Office was pulling in about 400 Million a year on the Mac way back then.

I think the could only be good for Linux... it will hopefully be good for the Mac OSX community. Tools written here will be very portable to the Mac.

Now if Apple was REALLY smart (hey, they could be once or twice a decade), they would support this project in a big way and they would fund the porting of their _very_ nice free development enviornment to Linux... perhaps built on this foundation.

Apple, you could gain HUGE amounts of respect in the linux community by doing this. You will also gain access to more industrial strength Linux tools for OSX, an OS that will be sound at release 10.1 but which will still be in desperate need of diverse apps.

Steven (stupid Ffakr)

Re:There are major apps... coming soon ;-) (5, Informative)

znu (31198) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290479)

Illustrator, Quark 5 and Office will not be Cocoa applications. Most major Mac OS X apps will be Carbon apps, because it's much easier to move existing Mac apps to Carbon. Perhaps major new apps will be written in Cocoa, but major new apps don't come along all that often.

GNUStep is still a pretty big deal. This is a kick-ass API. Assuming the open source equivalents of Interface Builder and Project Builder can match or beat the Apple tools, GNUStep will be the absolute best way to develop Linux applications.

Re:There are major apps... coming soon ;-) (2)

HerrNewton (39310) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290564)

Quark 5b1hit the streets a few days ago. It's a classic app: uncarbonized, not cocoa.

All Carbon apps (2, Informative)

TheInternet (35082) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290976)

On the near horizon, Adobe Illustrator 10 and Quark 5 are nearing release (both demonstrated at MWNY in July) and they are both, to the best of my knowledge, Cocoa native. [...] Office for OSX will also be Cocoa native

I'm not sure who has given you this indication. Office 10 is most definitely a Carbon app. You can have Carbon apps that only run on Mac OS X and not Mac OS 9. Office 10 is one such app. Is this the source of the confusion?

- Scott

Re:There are major apps... coming soon ;-) (2)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 13 years ago | (#2291041)

So will we see an equivalent of Wine which runs Mac OS X applications by remapping Carbon API calls to GnuStep? (I guess the answer to that one is 'if someone writes it'.)

'endorced'? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290454)

Um, what does 'endorced' mean? I don't think it's a word.

P.S. - I like the light blue color scheme of this article. It would make a good new default for Slashdot, although I know that's not going to happen. 'endorced'?!

Re:'endorced'? (0)

Angry White Guy (521337) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290464)

That what you call fucking an Ewok

Re:'endorced'? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290500)

oh

Question (2, Interesting)

infiniti99 (219973) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290467)

Why would I want to develop crossplatform applications with GNUStep, when I can use Qt 3.0 [trolltech.com] ? Qt supports Windows, MacOS X, Unix/X11, and Embedded. Apps have the look and feel of the native platform (unlike GTK), and no power/speed is sacrificed because the look is emulated, not wrapped (unlike wxWindows). All this using the proven C++ language. This is not vaporware folks. Each supported platform is just that: fully supported and stable.

I can't compare it to the OS X API's, since I have never programmed for a Mac, but doing Qt programming has been easier than anything else I've tried. Check out this page [trolltech.com] , where customers, some from high-profile companies, sing praise about why they prefer Qt to other alternatives / native toolkits.

Besides the obvious cost of using Qt for commercial development (which should only be a financial issue for individual developers, not companies), what good reason is there to use anything else?

Re:Question (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290505)

The OPENSTEP API (which the OS X API is derived from) was ported to Unix, Windows NT, and OPENSTEP for Mach (NeXT's OS). This is not vaporware either.
GNUstep is being written for Unix and NT at this time, and MacOS X is available on Macintoshes. This is nearly the cross-platform support of Qt, lacking only in the embedded market (for which you would need to be a fool to use your app unchanged anyway).
OPENSTEP is legendary for the speed and ease of development of programs created using it. Qt is famous for resembling MFC. And besides, ObjC is a more elegant language anyway!

Re:Question (2, Insightful)

droleary (47999) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290655)

Why would I want to develop crossplatform applications with GNUStep, when I can use Qt 3.0 [trolltech.com]?

Why use anything? If you're ga-ga for Qt, use it. If you actually want to learn about alternatives, look into GNUstep. The OpenStep API happens to have over a decade of refinements in it and is based on an outstanding OO language.

All this using the proven C++ language.

Heh. "Proven to suck" comes to mind. In reality, C++ is a very poor OO language; ObjC just blows it away. You can take a day out of your schedule ot learn the basic syntax additions to C and if you've got an ounce of OO skill you will immediately see the huge advantage to things like categories.

This is not vaporware folks. Each supported platform is just that: fully supported and stable.

Yet the page you link to has "Beta" all over it, and suggests you "Evaluate" the Mac version. Depending on your needs GNUstep might not be ready just yet, but don't go pretending that your pet toolkit is something it's not. I have SDL-based apps running on my OS X box, but where are the Qt-based apps I should be expecting from this "fully supported and stable" toolkit?

Besides the obvious cost of using Qt for commercial development (which should only be a financial issue for individual developers, not companies), what good reason is there to use anything else?

Your argument is flawed in that it could apply to anything. If you're comfortable with Qt and uncomfortable actually trying anything new, just use Qt. Let me know when I can run your applications on my platform. I had OpenStep-based apps running on Linux in 1996, and GNUstep has only gotten better since then.

Re:Question (2)

infiniti99 (219973) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290782)

Why use anything? If you're ga-ga for Qt, use it.

I suppose I am, and I do use it. I am not afraid to learn something new, however. I am genuinely interested in what is good about GNUStep. My post had an argumentative tone (which now carried into your post) because the article mentioned its use as a cross-platform library. Not that there can't be more than one good cross-platform library, but I think Qt is probably the best choice at the moment. With 3.0, I think we'll begin to see major application providers (like perhaps Adobe) consider using it, even if they never intend on Linux ports.

I don't think I jumped the gun by saying Qt is viable for MacOS X development. It is already very good on Windows and X11. Trolltech has planned on 3.0 being "release quality" next month, and I don't doubt the Mac support will be very good considering their history.

Let me know when I can run your applications on my platform

I have good faith in Qt/Mac. If I actually had OS X, I would probably have grabbed the open beta. I do plan on porting one of my apps to OS X when I am ready.

QT For Mac (3, Informative)

Matthias Wiesmann (221411) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290928)

A few months ago, a demo of QT for OS X was released, I was very intersted, so I tried it out. Honnestly the thing was rather dissapointing, at least for me.

  • The Aqua widgets are not mapped to native widgets, but simply QT widgets with a skin. The problem was that it was very visible, they acted wierd and where rather unresponsive (more than the native widgets, I have a relatively fast machine). I think one thing that would be nice, would be to do the same trick than apple did for swing, use native piers, at least for the Aqua look.
  • It crashed quite a lot...
  • Inter-application support was very bad. Copy paste was shoddy: somtimes you would get garbage, text would get accents garbled, (I'm swiss/french, so this is very annoying), no possibility of copy/pasting images. Same for drag/drop. I don't remember if printing was working, but I think it was simply not there...
  • OpenGL and direct graphics (the asteroid game) where OK, but then again, Mac OS X has direct OpenGL support.
  • The toolkit did no seem to use OS standart mechanism. For instance, under OS X, preferences are not stored in an invisible file, but in some kind of centralized database using a reverse DNS notation (like java classes).
  • It reminded me of the times when MS pushed for Office application for the Mac based on a litteral port of the Win32 code (Word 6), it was slow, and looked and acted as a disguised windows application.
  • QT for Mac is not available freely (like it is for X11), just when Apple decided that they would give away all the devellopement tools for free.
  • Of course I'm aware that this was a beta, and many OS X APIs are not stable, but in it's current state, Qt did not look to me as a viable option for serious desktop applications.

How should I put this? (3, Insightful)

jcr (53032) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290897)

Yes, because C++ is a Turing-complete programming language, you can do anything with C++ that you can with Objective-C.

However, to anyone who has used Obj-C and NeXTSTEP in any depth, your question sounds much like "What's so great about having sex? I can have an orgasm by jerking off, can't I?"

Let me put it this way: in 1989, I knew the Mac *cold*. I switched to NeXT, and it took me about one month to be as productive using the AppKit as I had ever been on the Mac. Within the year, I was at least three times as fast doing any given task.

The only development environment that ever arguably equalled NeXTSTEP for productivity was Smalltalk.

-jcr

Support for MacOS X compatable API means ... (2, Interesting)

alexalexis (31082) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290480)

... Photoshop. Illustrator. Office. I consider that a very significant and useful feature. Wouldn't it be interesting if OpenStep provided the doorway for native versions of applications the rest of the computing universe depends on?

Re:Support for MacOS X compatable API means ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290527)

These applications do not use the Cocoa API. They use Carbon - which is more like a polishing of the current Mac OS 'Classic' API. Don't get all your knickers in the twist.

Re:Support for MacOS X compatable API means ... (1)

alexalexis (31082) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290834)

Unfortunately, you're not looking towards the future: Adobe, Microsoft, and several other major software manufacturers have promised versions of their major titles for the Cocoa API, several of which have been demonstrated live in the last few months. I encourage you to look at both Microsoft's Macintosh pages, as well as Adobe's web site.

Re:Support for MacOS X compatable API means ... (3, Informative)

TheInternet (35082) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290966)

Unfortunately, you're not looking towards the future: Adobe, Microsoft, and several other major software manufacturers have promised versions of their major titles for the Cocoa API, several of which have been demonstrated live in the last few months. I encourage you to look at both Microsoft's Macintosh pages, as well as Adobe's web site.

I'm not sure what you'd be referring to. The products that Microsoft has announced for Mac OS X -- Office 10 (for Mac OS X only, not Mac OS 9/8) and Explorer -- are both Carbon apps. They have not demoed or confirmed any Cocoa apps in the works. They may eventually, but it's debatable if there is reason to do so anytime soon if Apple continues to improve Carbon. The story is pretty much the same on Adobe's side. They have demoed InDesign, Illustrator, GoLive and some others. They have also release a native version of Acrobat. But these are all Carbon apps. They have not talked about any Cocoa apps.

Aside from the fact that it is generally easier to port existing large Mac apps to Carbon than rewrite them in Cocoa, Micrsoft and Adobe still have the vast majority of their customers on Mac OS 9/8. They are probably not too keen to do massive forks at this point. The fact that the Mac OS Toolbox and Carbon APIs are similar makes it fiscally feasible to address both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X markets.

There are two ways to use Carbon. You can create a single Carbon binary that executes on both Mac OS 9/8 (old technology) and Mac OS X (Mach/BSD). However, this somewhat limits how much you can do on the Mac OS X side. The other option is to use Carbon only as a porting bridge. You don't end up with two separate binaries (one for OS9, one for OSX), but you still get two relatively similar code bases with similar API calls. This is what many developers have opted to do since it allows them to build a better Mac OS X app without having to completely rewrite their software. Microsoft is currently doing this with Explorer.

There actually is a third reason to use Carbon -- it's a C/C++ framework. Maya opted to use Carbon for this reason. Cocoa apps can currently only be written in Objective-C and Java. There is talk about resurrecting Objective-C++, though.

Carbon and Cocoa apps can look essentially identical to the untrained eye. Both make calls to the same core frameworks. They both provide protected memory spaces, preemptive multitasking, and access to Quartz. They are peers in many ways. "Classic" is the compatibility environment in which a Mac OS 9 virtual machine is launched to run old Mac apps that have not been ported to either of the new APIs. While Cocoa and Classic apps use Aqua UI widgets, Classic apps do not. They generally have the grey chizeled look of Mac OS 9.

By the way -- the Finder, Mac OS X's file manager/shell is written in Carbon, as is the event manager. And based on Apple's statements, it looks like they have done a lot of work on Carbon for the emminent Mac OS X 10.1 release. Several upcoming Carbon Mac OS X apps require 10.1.

- Scott

IP Issues? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290485)

I would like to know if there are any IP issues the GNUStep have had, or will have to deal with?

Re:IP Issues? (1)

TheInternet (35082) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290899)

I would like to know if there are any IP issues the GNUStep have had, or will have to deal with?

It is legal for them to write implementations of the OpenStep/Cocoa APIs. But there are going to be walls. No Quartz or QuickTime, for example. These are considered core components of Mac OS X.

- Scott

l33t speak (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290563)

why do hackers talk like Puerto Ricans?

j00 vanna tell me?

Re:l33t speak (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290827)

they ARE porto-ricans. Don't you notice the beard
and the belly?
RMS is the biggest pimp ;-)

Objective C??? (2)

Rimbo (139781) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290573)

It seems odd to me that they would choose to work in Objective C. If they want the idea to be adopted, if they want their efforts to be worth their while, why not choose a language that has broader support?

Objective-C may have some nice features above and beyond regular C, but if you're going to do work in a relatively obscure language, why not pick one that has better language support for various computing paradigms than popular alternatives? It seems whatever minor quirks of Java and C++ you'd overcome would be less important than being able to draw from a large base of experienced Java/C++ programmers.

Re:Objective C??? (1)

J. J. Ramsey (658) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290634)

Because they are implementing NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP which is intimately tied with Objective C.

Re:Objective C??? (2)

Ian Bicking (980) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290754)

Well, Objective C is closely tied to OpenStep. It's OO in a way C++ isn't, and fast in a way Java isn't.

It really has decent enough support. GCC supports it (from an early win for the GPL), and I imagine GCC covers more than 99% of all environments.

If you mean developer knowledge, well... I think there's been some work to get Objective C to work well with C++ or Java in GCC (much more work in MacOS X), but I have a feeling that's more about integration, not alternate GNUStep development languages.

Anyway, C++ people have just in the last few years found STL -- the sort of abstraction Objective C and Smalltalk has had since the very beginning. C++ just isn't doing all that good a job of catching up, probably because they aren't going to the same place. And if that's the case, well... I don't know how much of a help that would be anyway.

Objective C isn't hard to learn, either. Easier than Java or C++.

Re:Objective C??? (1)

Canyon Rat (103953) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290785)

There are two parts to the answer. The first is that any competent Java/C++ programmer can learn ObjC in a day. Those who have made this transition never want to go back. The second is that once the ObjC frameworks are complete, Java support can be added using Apple's open source Java/ObjC bridge.

endorced (0)

dbCooper0 (398528) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290578)

Geez - yer spelling. Maybe I'm not an accepted /. person, but at least you could learn to edit! I AM ANAL.(retentive) and expect web publishers to at least get the basic shit right.

GNUStep is UGLY (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290597)

GNUStep is not popular for one reason. It is damn ugly. I guess when it gets aqua then it will look like the annoying over sugary OSX apps but I'm not sure that is really an improvement over Qt or GTK since you can make those look like whatever you want. The only good thing about this project is that we may see big time apps from adobe and other companies finally being ported to linux. Check out some of their "And (did I mention this already?) it looks good" (from GNUStep Info) screenshots. [gnustep.it]

Re:GNUStep is UGLY (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290833)

GNUStep was designed to be toolkit-independant. All you need to do is write another graphics-backend for GTK+ and all of a sudden your GNUSTEP apps will look like your GNOME apps. This is because GNUStep is not a toolkit, nor a desktop, it's a set of object oriented frameworks that follow the MacOS X API. Just because the default toolkits (xgps and xdps) don't look the way you like doesn't discount the environment.

GNUStep has been in development *forever* (5, Interesting)

x mani x (21412) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290668)

I remember watching the development of GNUStep from back when I just started using Linux (95? 96?). It seems to be a project that has been slowly in development for years now, yet unfortunately hampered by a lack of support from the OSS community.

I wouldn't blame anyone, though. Most people are not familiar or even interested in the NeXTStep/OpenStep platform. The technology is definately strange, based on Objective-C and a postscript-based rendering engine, but this platform was (is) years ahead of its time.

I have OpenStep 4.2 for intel, and it is probably the coolest OS ever. At one point I got a copy of an early OS X beta for intel, and it was basically OpenStep 4.2 recompiled with a Macos-looking widget set and a menubar instead of the Wharf ("Dock" in WindowMaker land). The look and feel of OpenStep is far and beyond any UNIX or Windows desktop in terms of sheer quality and useability (many believe the Windows widget set is imitative of the NeXT look to the point that NeXT could have sued Microsoft).

It is sad to think that if Redhat decided to throw its weight behind GNUStep instead of GNOME, we probably would have had a full-fledged, slick NeXTStep/OpenStep/Macos X clone right now layered on top of any UNIX kernel. This is just too bad. I think pretty soon I will reinstall OpenStep 4.2 on my Intel box, and I'm definately investing in one of those G4's to find out what those old NeXT developers (considered some of the most innovative and talented GUI developers in the world) have been up to.

It's not so much that there was a lack of support. (2)

jcr (53032) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290922)

Basically, the only people who can really help on GNUStep are the people who have a fair amount of experience with NeXTSTEP or its successors.

When people without this experience try to help, you end up with a disaster like Sun's OpenStep on solaris.

-jcr

Re:It's not so much that there was a lack of suppo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2291051)

Basically, it's developing about as fast as Berlin.

Sand Niggers Identified (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290700)

Article here [latimes.com]

To bypass the lameness filter, I'd just like to add that we need to seal our borders, deport the sand niggers, and nuke their homeland.

Re:Sand Niggers Identified (-1)

core10k (196263) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290725)

Just for those who didn't bother to plod through this article, it went a bit like this:



blah blah blah blah blah blah


blah blah blah blah blah blah


A cigarette found near the car will be tested for DNA, Sprague said.


blah blah blah blah blah blah


blah blah blah blah blah blah


Kill All Muslims. Destroy Mohammedan Pigs (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2290728)

It is our duty:
  1. Kill all Arabs.
  2. Kill all Towel Heads.
  3. Kill all Mohammedans.
  4. Kill all Muslims.
  5. Kill all Caml Jockeys
  6. Kill all Dune Coons.
  7. Kill all Islam.
  8. Nuke their countries to hell.
  9. Nuke them again.
  10. Death to Islam.

I wipe my ass with the Koran. I spit upon Mohammed. I piss on Mecca

Re:Kill All Muslims. Destroy Mohammedan Pigs (0, Offtopic)

Per Wigren (5315) | more than 13 years ago | (#2291016)

11. Kill all narrow-minded idiots.

What if it was a white christian who were behind the bombings, would you say "Kill all christians", "Kill all whites", "Nuke USA/Europe" etc?

As much as I hate the terrorists and killing of innocent, I don't find it very hard to understand that people get mad at a self-proclaimed world-police who enters almost every conflict there is, choose the side that benefits them most and drop tons of missiles at the other part.
You can't imagine how poor the people in many countries are! Of course they look jealously at WTC, the biggest symbol of capitalism and wealth in the world...

DON'T LET MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE!

Re:Kill All Muslims. Destroy Mohammedan Pigs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#2291021)

Nuke Sweeden. Kill all leftist terrorist sympathizers. Destroy Sweeden, friend of terrorists.

Has anyone ever noticed... (2)

dido (9125) | more than 13 years ago | (#2290979)

That the OpenStep logo actually looks like a stealth bomber?

"endorced" ? (1)

phayes (202222) | more than 13 years ago | (#2291005)

Uh, Taco, would you mind letting us know where we might find the definition of "endorced". I've tried dictionaries, a thesaurus, and the Internet without succes...

Pat
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