Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Freedom Flees in Terror

michael posted about 13 years ago | from the forlorn-hope dept.

Editorial 656

Paul McMasters of the Freedom Forum has an editorial about the various and many restrictions on freedom that are following in the wake of the September 11 crashes.

cancel ×

656 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

frost post (-1, Troll)

Magumbo (414471) | about 13 years ago | (#2323370)

bwa ha ha

anarchists all over italy raided (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323409)

Yesterday morning (Tuesday, 18th September) there were about 100 raids all
over Italy, and 60 people taking in for questioning by police.
Under the orders of the State Prosecutor for Milan, Stephano DAmburoso,
there were police raids in twenty Italian cities. The State Prosecutor is
conducting an investigation against the movement "Solidarieta
Internazionale" which had actively supported the prisoners resistance in
Spain against the introductions Control Units (F.I.E.S.) as well as in
Greece. The movement is accused of involvement in the bombings of Church of
SantAmbrogio (28.06.00), the Cathedral of Milan (18.12.00) and the
Carabinieri Station [National Police] (26.10.99), all of which are in Milan,
Italy.
Undercover cops, Digos (Political Police), Celere (Riot Police/Swat Team)
stormed a squat, Villa Occupata, in Milan. The ground floor was ruined and
files and computer equipment were confiscated. 12 people were taken in for
questioning.
In Pisa, at 7am a private apartment and later the office of an ecological
group were raided. Files, particularly those relating to the support of
prisoners in Spain, as well as the computer hard drives were confiscated.
In Modena, police raided two squats, La Scintilla and La Rivalsa, and
evicted all the occupants of the La Rivalsa squat. Some people were taken to
the police station for questioning.
Similar coordinated raids in Torino, Padova, Trieste, Aosta, Nuoro,
Cagliari, Grosseto, Cuneo, Firenze, Catania, Orvieto, Venezia, Mestre,
Vittorio Veneto, Sacile and Mondovi.
To the best of our knowledge, all those taken in for questioning were
released by yesterday evening. 17 persons will continue to be investigated
under Paragraph 270bis. (Subversive Association and Subversive
Organizations, part of a very severe `Anti-Terror law)
All those targeted yesterday were Anarchists. As this is taking place after
the g8 Summit in Genoa and before the NATO Summit in Naples it is clear that
these actions were motivated by an attempt to surpress the organizing and
not only by the previous bombings sited by the State Prosecutor.

Pinelli Social Center in Genoa and Memorial to Carlo Guliani targeted by
fascist fire bombs

In the early morning hours on Sunday (16.09.01) two firebombs were thrown at
the Pinelli Social Center (Anarchist). No one was inside the center at the
time, however the interior was gutted and everything inside, including
computer equipment was destroyed. The following night, the memorial in
Piazza Alimonda to Carlo Guiliani (murdered by police during g8 Summit in
July) was destroyed by another fire bomb. These attacks are believed to be
the work of security services, either directly or through the encouragement
of local skinheads.

Repression against Migrants in Genoa

Yesterday evening, 74 people, mostly North Africans, were deported as
`threats to society. This is part of a broader campaign of State
Repression.

One serious legal charge dropped against protestor at g8 Summit in Genoa

The second protestor identified from photos around Carlo Gulianis murder in
Piazza Alimonda, Genoa, 23 year old Eurialio, who had been accused of being
an accessory to attempted murder of a policeman, had his charges reduced to
resisting a policeman.

www.genoaresistance.org

repubblica newspaper reports translated (english)
by black bollock 7:07am Wed Sep 19 '01
blackbollock@hotmail.com
all times for 18/9/01

Milan 12.20
Terrorism Police blitz also in Lombardia
Raids are taking place also in Milan in the context of an operation which
takes in various northern Italian cities among them Padova. In the
Lombardian capital four habitations have been raided and a palazzina
("little palace" squat?) in Litta ModignaniStreet, held as a base for
Milanese exponents of the anarco-insurrectionist movement.

Milan 12.50
Antiterrorism blitz, twenty people under investigation
Twenty people under investigation, all related to the area of anarcho
insurrectionism, in the inquest conducted by pm Stefano Dambruoso who
carried out the raids taking place in Milan and other northern cities.
The Gip Maurizio Grigo is evaluating the positions of those under
investigation. The hypothetical charge is that of subversive association
leading to acts of terrorism. In particular the inquest is focusing on
throwing light on who was responsible for the acts of violence carried out
with explosive devices which were found in Milan on the 18th June 2000 in
the Sant'Ambrogio Basilica (church), and the 18th December of the same year
on one of the walk ways of the spires of the Milan Dome (church).

Milan 13.50 Anti-terrorism blitz, 60 under investigation 60 people have been served notice that they are under investigation for association leading to terrorism, related to an inquest regarding the anarco-insurrectionist movement.
There have been 100 raids, still in progress, carried out in all Italy by the Digos of the Milan questura (police station). The inquest is particularly regarding the "International Solidarity" movement, some of whose components may be held responsible for the attempted attacks on the Sant'Ambrogio di Milano church, the Duomo di Milano and the Musocco-Milano carabinieri station (military police) (where a 150 gram plastic explosive letter bomb addressed to the military police was defused on the 26 October 1999). Some of the raids were on anarchist centres connected to the insurrection movement but that had nothing to do with FAI (the Italian Anarchist Federation) according to investigators. Some of the people involved in these raids had also participated in the demonstrations against the G8 in Genoa.

Trieste, 16.19
Terrorism: seized in the city of Trieste, information material and numerous documents have been siezed by Trieste Digos agents in the course of raids carried out this morning on the orders of the Republic's power of attorney of Milan. There were five raids overall (in Trieste) and they took place in private residences in the city and in the suburbs, particularly in the Carso area. During the raids no arms, ammunition or other explosive materials were found.

www.ainfos.ca/en/ainfos07517.html

fp! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323371)

frost piss!

spank my monkey!

oh well (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323373)

Hey, get used to it. I'm not going to waste my time and energy prolonging the inevitable. If we don't lose our civil liberties today, we'll lose them tomorrow. Yeah, it sucks, but there's nothing you can really do.

Re:oh well (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323390)

We can whine like libertarians.

Re:oh well (1)

ZenJabba1 (472792) | about 13 years ago | (#2323395)

You only miss freedom when its ripped away from your soul. The Civil Liberties that American's enjoy are what make the culture what it is today, and not only will they remove your freedom, but you will change the fabric of the American Society.

Its like they have totally given up on Gun control and decided the "geeks" are a easy target because they havn't created a politcal lobby force to protest effectively about what really troubles them.

Soon, there will be nothing to fight about because we will have given up our freedom to think

Great Story (0)

INicheI (513673) | about 13 years ago | (#2323376)

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, What should be the reward of such sacrifices? ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom -- go from us in peace. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you."--Samuel Adams

Fire from the skies and hatred from afar last Tuesday caused human carnage and suffering at an unthinkable level. They dealt terrifying blows to our financial institutions, our transportation and communications systems, our political and military nerve centers, and to a nation's sense of self and security.

Re:Great Story (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323381)

Hey, I see you had a story accepted, yet when I click on the link in your user profile thing-e I get the lovely "nothing to see here" message. Do you know what's up with this?

Re:Great Story (0)

INicheI (513673) | about 13 years ago | (#2323446)

Yeah, it just got aceppted and I think it will be sometime tonight, I dont know what the deal is though. If it inst up by the morning I am going to email the big CmdrTaco.

T3rr0r - ph34r m3 (-1)

ubertroll (153053) | about 13 years ago | (#2323377)


* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
g g
o / \ \ / \ o
a| | \ | | a
t| `. | | : t
s` | | \| | s
e \ | / / \\\ -- \\ : e
x \ \/ --~~ ~--| \ | x
* \ \-~ ~-\ | *
g \ \ .--------.__\| | g
o \ \_// ((> \ | o
a \ . C ) _ ((> | / a
t /\ | C )/ \ (> |/ t
s / /\| C) | (> / \ s
e | ( C__)\__/ // / / \ e
x | \ | \\__// (/ | x
* | \ \) `---- --' | *
g | \ \ / / | g
o | / | | \ | o
a | | / \ \ | a
t | / / | | \ |t
s | / / \/\/ | |s
e | / / | | | |e
x | | | | | |x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

Can anybody enlighten me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323380)

September 11? What happened on September 11? I was busy learning for my exams, so maybe I missed the news.

We deserved it! (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323382)

When will we learn that freedom is onlyfound in our Lord, and we have strayed from our ways with our immoral lifestyles?

> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>
> Television evangelists Jerry Falwell and Pat
> Robertson, two of the most
> prominent voices of the religious right, said
> liberal civil liberties
> groups, feminists, homosexuals and abortion rights
> supporters bear partial
> responsibility for Tuesday's terrorist attacks
> because their actions have
> turned God's anger against America.
>
> "God continues to lift the curtain and allow the
> enemies of America to give
> us probably what we deserve," said Falwell,
> appearing yesterday on the
> Christian Broadcasting Network's "700 Club," hosted
> by Robertson.
> "Jerry, that's my feeling," Robertson responded. "I
> think we've just seen
> the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to
> see what they can do to
> the major population."
>
> Falwell said the American Civil Liberties Union has
> "got to take a lot of
> blame for this," again winning Robertson's
> agreement: "Well, yes."
>
> Then Falwell broadened his blast to include the
> federal courts and others
> who he said were "throwing God out of the public
> square." He added: "The
> abortionists have got to bear some burden for this
> because God will not be
> mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little
> innocent babies, we make God
> mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the
> abortionists, and the
> feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are
> actively trying to make
> that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for
> the American Way -- all
> of them who have tried to secularize America -- I
> point the finger in their
> face and say, 'You helped this happen.' "
> Falwell was unrepentant, saying in an interview that
> he was "making a
> theological statement, not a legal statement."
>
> "I put all the blame legally and morally on the
> actions of the terrorist,"
> he said. But he said America's "secular and
> anti-Christian environment left
> us open to our Lord's [decision] not to protect.
> When a nation deserts God
> and expels God from the culture . . . the result is
> not good."
>

Re:We deserved it! (1)

Rademir (168324) | about 13 years ago | (#2323417)

The interesting thing is that both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are so similarly critical of American culture.

I actually agree with them to the extent that i'm all for having more spirituality in public life. But of course to me that means many different belief systems...

slashdot is a pussy (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323383)

they lick dick.
fucking pigs, need to join the police force if they want to oppress the AC people who want first post.

Rights, you want what? RIGHTS??? (2, Funny)

bozo42 (68206) | about 13 years ago | (#2323385)

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."

-Thomas Jefferson

Re:Rights, you want what? RIGHTS??? (1)

Ted Turner (455152) | about 13 years ago | (#2323428)

"I've said things and people have taken them out of context."

-- Jesus Christ, Mohammed, God, Allah, Buddha, Keanu Reeves, Steve Young, Genghis Khan.

Re:Rights, you want what? RIGHTS??? (1)

reynaert (264437) | about 13 years ago | (#2323489)

"Problems don't get solved by quoting dead people"
-- Me, Right now

Angry (2, Insightful)

SilentChris (452960) | about 13 years ago | (#2323387)

I'll make the same argument I've made with many privacy advocates in the past few days: you wouldn't be griping if you were here. Seeing a plane crash into a building on TV is one thing. Seeing it across the river (I live in NJ) is another.

There is a current mini-poll going on at CNN that asks "Would you trade in some of your personal freedom to be safer from terrorists?" From being in the area, watching 5,000 people die, and hearing constant new stories from friends and neighbors about their dead relatives, I can honestly say "I would gladly agree with giving up some of my freedom".

In fact, this is an issue that has gotten me angry before. These hotheads parade around in real life and online, waiving their "free speech" stickers, and they don't have an ounce or inkling of what really happened here. People have said to me, moronically, "I'd rather be dead than lose my free speech." I have to say, honestly, "What good is free speech if you're DEAD?"

Re:Angry (-1)

bradleyjay (413670) | about 13 years ago | (#2323401)

Well said. I agree completely.

This was our wake up call to join the rest of the world.

Re:Angry (4, Insightful)

Savage Henry Matisse (94615) | about 13 years ago | (#2323403)

"Would you trade in some of your personal freedom to be safer from terrorists?"

Most folks would agree to this, certainly. Unfortunately, as it stands, it seems the more salient question is "Would you trade in some of your personal freedo to be no safer from terrorists?" Because that's where it is: we will be asked to sacrifice our freedoms, but will be no safer from terrorist actions-- especially terrorist that display the adaptibility, patience and savage will that these hijackers did.

Re:Angry (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323439)

Unfortunately, the only things that you know are jack and shit, and jack left town...

Re:Angry (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323405)

You are thinking for yourself.

slashdot does not accept this, you will now be moderated down.

Re:Angry (4, Flamebait)

Dredd13 (14750) | about 13 years ago | (#2323408)

I have to say, honestly, "What good is free speech if you're DEAD?"

What good it is, is that if we're going to die, let's die with our morals intact. I would rather die free than live in shackles.

Once you're willing to give up your morals, where do you draw the line? If the government tells you that they need to be able to randomly search your house, because you might be a terrorist (and they blow things up, so you could DIE!), would you stand for it? If the government says "this internet thing is letting too many people exchange terrorist plans, and if they do that, you could DIE!, so we're going to censor the net.", would you stand for it?

The bottom line is that once you acknowledge that you're willing to trade your moral values for your life, your life isn't worth possessing any more.

Re:Angry (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323478)

Its hard to respond to this because there is so little sense to it.

How do you equate morals to speech? Perhaps in your little world, but the rest of us realize that free speech is not a moral. It now seems that you wish to force your own morals on the rest of us. Well I personally this abortion is pretty sick, but i would not kill a doctor who preformed the procedure. And if I was a doctor and was required to do it by the state i would rather do it than die.
You have to realize that most people would rather give up their morals than DIE, and even if you consider speech a moral, it would not be much worse than killing a squirel, and anyone who killed themself to save a squirel should be looked at.

Re:Angry (4, Insightful)

Dredd13 (14750) | about 13 years ago | (#2323507)

How do you equate morals to speech?

Because the concept of making a choice between "free speech vs. safety" is a moral/ethical decision. It's a value judgement of sorts.

Your comment about "And if I was a doctor and was required to do it by the state i would rather do it than die." doesn't ring true for any stanch Roman Catholic, who would believe that would be an Express Ticket to Hell.

Lots of people, throughout the history of this country, have decided for themselves that "living free" was more important than "living at all". Those men and women bled and died on battlefields from Saratoga forward...

For someone to say that "living" is worth more than "living free" disgraces the memory of those many who died specifically to prove otherwise.

Re:Angry (2)

superid (46543) | about 13 years ago | (#2323415)

I just had an extensive argument on IRC regarding this. Basically I posed this hypothetical situation: A terrorist is using email to plan to nuke Los Angeles. Suppose that a carnivore-like system were able to detect this and avert it. Given that the system is not abused, I repeat, given that its not abused (no fair saying "but it will be") would you give up email privacy in exchange for Los Angeles?



I would.

SuperID

Re:Angry (1)

LordNimon (85072) | about 13 years ago | (#2323430)

Carnivore can't decrypt documents encoded with 1024-bit keys, so how can it stop a terrorist?

Re:Angry (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323443)

I propose this hypothetical situation: A terrorist is using your dog to nuke Los Angeles. Suppose killing your dog were able to detect this and avert it. Given that the system is not abused, I repeat, given that its not abused (no fair saying "but it will be") would you give up your dog in exchange for Los Angeles?

I would.

Re:Angry (1)

Dimwit (36756) | about 13 years ago | (#2323450)

Maybe not Los Angeles. I mean, come on, have you lived there?

Seriously, though, the ability to tap anyone's phone in the country is already there - having a carnivore-type system just gives them the ability to tap into Net communications. Would you advocate having them take away every phone switch in the world because "the government could tap into your phone conversation", even though it would mean not having a phone?

Sometimes the nature of the beast is that the government needs the ability to enforce laws. I would trade the chance that they would listen in to my conversation (especially since it would be illegal without a court-order), for the chance to stop something like the WTC disaster.

live free or die (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323455)

id rather stand free and die, then live on my knees

Re:live free or die (1)

DivineOb (256115) | about 13 years ago | (#2323499)

happy to hear you signed up with the army

Re:Angry (4, Interesting)

DavidJA (323792) | about 13 years ago | (#2323461)


would you give up email privacy in exchange for Los Angeles?


Of course I would (and I'm in Australia) As long as you can prove to me that letting the FBI read my e-mail will make a difference.



I heard a news report this morning that there was a person in First Class on the same flight from Boston a week earler. On this flight there were 4 people of middle eastern extraction in first class with him that were acting very strangly. If this is true, they were probably doing a dry run for the atack. Anyway, this person actually reported it to the FBI.


In other words, if this news artical was true, the FBI knew something was wrong a week before, and it still did not stop them.


So I repeat: As long as you can prove to me that letting the FBI read my e-mail will make a difference.


Re:Angry (5, Interesting)

Bronster (13157) | about 13 years ago | (#2323466)

I just had an extensive argument on IRC regarding this. Basically I posed this hypothetical situation: A terrorist is using email to plan to nuke Los Angeles. Suppose that a carnivore-like system were able to detect this and avert it. Given that the system is not abused, I repeat, given that its not abused (no fair saying "but it will be") would you give up email privacy in exchange for Los Angeles?

Suppose that pigs can fly...

"Given that the system is not abused" - where are you giving that from? If there's one thing that history tells us about these systems, they are abused.

The other part of your hypothetical.

"that a carnivore-like system were able to detect this and avert it" - do you seriously believe that the terrorists are not going to be able to get messages past such a system and yet you'll still have the freedom to freely send messages? The only way to keep on top of new techniques is to severly restrict the noise ratio on data channels, and this means restrictions on internet use. There are no ways to stop low bandwidth information transfer.

Even something as simple as either looking at or not looking at a site like slashdot once a day gives you one bit a day of data transfer. It would be easy to hide a short message in a single slashdot post - even something as simple as choice of punctuation, spelling errors, etc - if agreed on without going through the carnivore net - would be enough to give maybe 10 digits of data in a post this long.

I'm amazed that slashdot readers can believe that such a system wouldn't be abused - I mean how likely is that that the RIAA wouldn't push for this to be used to monitor 'illegal' behaviour as well.

Re:Angry (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323508)

Exactly.

I guarantee you that nobody in New York can even being to comprehend this vague and naive belief in your "freedom". The kinds of freedoms that we fought for in 1776 have absolutely nothing to do with your freedom to smoke pot without your dad knowing about it...

who wants freedom when you can be oppressed? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323419)

force youre ways onto the people so everyone acts/thinks the same. then there will be no fear of disagreement.

Re:Angry (1)

DavidJA (323792) | about 13 years ago | (#2323434)

How would taking my right to free speach away stop this from happening & which freedoms would you take away from me to ensure that this would not happen again. How is (for example) taking my right to send encrypted e-mails away stop anything?

Re:Angry (2)

clifyt (11768) | about 13 years ago | (#2323444)

I can understand this sentiment, but what good is being alive if every freedom is restricted? Some of us are afraid that giving up even one freedom will lead us down to giving up all freedoms. I have nothing in my life that I think the gov't would be even the slightest bit interested in, but I'm not going to give up my freedoms of privacy or speech just because it may lead to a few safer lives.

Bush has said for months before the elections that there should be limits to free speech...this was in reference simply to a web site that didn't care for him. I support him for what he has to do but I pray that he makes the right decisions and not one that simply makes life easier.

Make the 5000 lives lost worth something...they died for the american way. Many of these folks were immigrants that came to America because of these freedoms. Don't make a mockery out of their deaths simply because you are afraid.

clif

Resigned (2)

Rocketboy (32971) | about 13 years ago | (#2323448)

you wouldn't be griping if you were here.


Yes, I would. I've been though a lot and I'm not terrified that easily. The concepts of freedom and liberty are only safe luxuries to those who have always had them; if you lose them for even a short time you come to a more mature understanding. You say, if I were there I'd be willing to forego a few freedoms for greater safety. I say, if you'd lost a few freedoms in the past you'd never agree to such an idiotic deal.


"I would gladly agree with giving up some of my freedom".


I won't, not now, not ever, not under any circumstances. I'm willing to fight to retain the liberties my (and your) ancestors fought and died for -- the same liberties which our country's enemies do not have, don't understand, and would be delighted to see us lose. Keep your eye on the ball, not the dancing chicken on the third base line.


Ben Franklin knew what he was talking about when he said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Re:Resigned (1)

DivineOb (256115) | about 13 years ago | (#2323469)

Well, that quote has already become incredibly overused, but even with what he said... are you ignoring the term 'temporary' in there? What leads you to believe that giving up some of the specific liberties relating to this issue would provide only a temporary benefit?

Re:Angry (1)

LagDemon (521810) | about 13 years ago | (#2323449)

Would you trade in some of your personal freedom to be safer from terrorists?"
The problem with this is, no matter how much freedom you give up, there is still a chacne that a terrorist can kill you. I wouldn't mind giving up my rights if a I had absolute, 100%, unbreakable protection for terrorists. However, because no such protection exists, I think I'll keep my freedoms, since either way I run the risk of being killed in an incident.

Besides, the odds are much, much greater that I will die from natural or non-terrorist related incidents.

Re:Angry (1)

etymxris (121288) | about 13 years ago | (#2323452)

I live in Manhattan, was myself close to the carnage, and I'd have to disagree. Normally a liberal/libertarian, this week I have been almost totally behind Bush's way of handling this calamity. The US is a great nation, and we have to defend it. But I am totally opposed to giving up all of our freedoms, and instituting upon ourselves a Stalinesque government. For if this happens, the US will no longer be a great nation. There will be nothing in this nation worth defending. If we lose all our freedoms because of this terrorist act, I will personally leave this nation in disgust.

You should listen to Bush himself. He said it well, "Freedom itself was attacked today..." We are not just protecting our lives, we are protecting our way of life. If we give up all our freedom just to feel a little more safe. then there is no reason we should live in the US. We may just as well live in China, or Singapore, or Oceana.

Re:Angry (1)

cporter (61382) | about 13 years ago | (#2323472)

I'm right here in NJ, too; in fact on my way to that very place when everything happened.

"Would you trade in some of your personal freedom to be safer from terrorists?"

This question is asked quite a bit. Who says that a sacrifice in personal freedom equals a gain in safety?

what good is life if you cant be free? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323474)

a life without freedom is not life at all.

Re:Angry (0, Troll)

wytcld (179112) | about 13 years ago | (#2323487)

I watched the towers fall from Brooklyn where the same day (1) a woman I know was walking with her 8-year-old daughter when three Muslim youth came up to them and pointed and said "You're next!" (2) another woman I know in the same part-Muslim neighborhood found a postcard of the World Trade Center on the sidewalk, turned it over, and found a black "V" (for "victory"?) on the back. These are not reasons to restrict the freedoms of citizens. These are the reasons to immediately deport all Muslim immigrants, or at least sort out which among them are evil, for quite obviously a not insignificant number of them are.

If Nazis are citizens, they have free speach rights. If Muslims are citizens, the same. If Muslims are not citizens, for Christ's and humanity's sake, offer them two choices: (1) turn in your fellow-religionists who perpetrate evil or (2) leave. This is not racism. Neither Nazism nor Islamism corresponds to a race. Both ideologies are evil, however, worse than any version of Marxism, even. Excuse my political incorrectness, but there are two choices: (1) sacrifice everyone's freedom, or (2) remove the freedoms of Muslim immigrants who are here due to our generosity. Do we currently accept Nazi immigrants? Are Muslims somehow morally superior to Nazis? In what way? Are they kinder to Jews? Or would most of them be Nazis to Jews given the chance? Please answer that question honestly, then say if we should grant avowed Muslims favors we wouldn't grant avowed Nazis.

Re:Angry (1)

mgpeter (132079) | about 13 years ago | (#2323501)

"Would you trade in some of your personal freedom to be safer from terrorists?".........."I would gladly agree with giving up some of my freedom"

By saying that, you have just publicly stated that you are in fact unAmerican. How many people in this country have DIED in many wars because they wanted to protect their freedom and the freedom of their families. I myself have known many great Americans that have gave their life so that others may live in freedom.

While this country was just beginning, if our ancestors thought that way we would still be under rule of a Monarcy and the world wouldn't even know what freedom really means (reading all these articles makes me wonder if we even know what it means anymore).

I can relate with anyone that is scared because of this, but I cannot and will not give up any more freedoms, to do so would be going against my heart and my heritage.

National anthem? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323389)

So I guess the words "land of the free" need to be removed from the national anthem and replaced with something else?

How soon until we hear the phrase "Citizen, your papers are not in order." on a daily basis?

The point is made (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323393)

While i'm sure that this is an important issue to everyone here, but i don't think that it is necessary for slashdot to post a story every time some two bit sight posts it cookie cutter articles.

Terrorism (1)

blugecko (152079) | about 13 years ago | (#2323397)

Just some food for thought. Who trained Osama Bin Laden in the 80's to be a terrorist (against the USSR)? The United States. Who funded Osama Bin Laden's terrorist activities with 45 million US dollars? The United States. Who condoned and supported terrorism? The United States. I just dont understand why it is ok for the US to terrorize other countries but not ok for terrorists to attack the US.

Re:Terrorism (-1)

bradleyjay (413670) | about 13 years ago | (#2323424)

Once again, well said. I agree completely.

I just saw a program on the Discovery Channel about Usama Bin Laden. One person interviewed (I can't remember who) said it best:
If you agree with the person, he is a 'freedom fighter', or even a 'revolutionary'.
If you disagree with him, he is a 'terrorist'.
(Not exact quotes, but you get the point)

Re:Terrorism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323465)

Rather specious quotes.

If you're not a fucking idiot, you'd probably say::
"If a person's primary target is innocent civilians, he is a 'terrorist'. If his primary target is military/military police he may well be a 'revolutionary' or a 'freedom fighter.'"

See the difference?

Re:Terrorism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323492)

Appearence and reputation are more important than facts and logic. But, eh, what are you going to do about it?

Re:Terrorism (-1)

bradleyjay (413670) | about 13 years ago | (#2323504)

No, I don't.

It depends entirely on your standpoint in the situation. To Usama Bin Laden's friends, I'm sure he's not a terrorist. Likewise, I'm sure to these people, we are terrorists.

Don't get me wrong. I don't condone these actions in any way, shape or form, and the people responsible will surely burn in hell for it. I was simply stating that the label a society gives a particular 'person' is entirely dependent on that society's veiwpoint in the matter at hand.

Re:Terrorism (1)

Furdock (453149) | about 13 years ago | (#2323441)

The USSR was trying to invade Afghanistan. That's why we (stupidly) helped them.

We were just trying to save that little shit hole from communism. And it was a huge mistake.

Re:Terrorism (1)

Camel Pilot (78781) | about 13 years ago | (#2323464)

Ya know the other day I was outraged to learn that Iran supports financially the Islamic Jihad in Lebonon. How could a legit country fund a terrorist group. Then I realize that we funded and trained good'l Osama, in the 80's. I then felt ashamed.

Re:Terrorism (1)

reynaert (264437) | about 13 years ago | (#2323502)

Maybe you mean Libanon?

all of southern america (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323506)

dont forget all of southern and central america, and certain places in asia.
the US likes to set up right wing dictators that are extreamly brutal.
even now they are funding operations agianst leftist guirilas in columbia while ignor the right wing paramilitary groups that traffic more drugs than the leftist.

Re:Terrorism (1)

DavidJA (323792) | about 13 years ago | (#2323480)

I just dont understand why it is ok for the US to terrorize other countries but not ok for terrorists to attack the US


Don't you get it? With the US its Do as I say not as I do.


Its OK for the US to bomb another country back to the stone age, killing thousands of innocent people, but as soon as the tables are turned, its world war 3/



they also setup iran's government, bomb iraq..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323485)

support isreals racist treatment of palestinians...
and probably a whole lot of stuff...
if that many people in the middle east ahte america they must have a good reason, and in this case they have a few.

Re:Terrorism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323496)

Looks like he is biting the hand that fed him

Javascript is evil (vindication) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323398)

The fact that the new Nimda virus uses Javascript to spread a worm on a system simply by browsing is a testament to how insecure and how evil Javascript is. Time to remove javascript from browsers or at least ship them with the shit turned off!

He probably doesn't fly! (1)

BetaRelease (110550) | about 13 years ago | (#2323399)

But what are his proposed solutions?

Greatest Tragedies of 21st Century (2, Interesting)

Plasmoid (8367) | about 13 years ago | (#2323400)

The First Great Tragedy is the attack and destruction of the WTC and ~5000 souls.

The Second Great Tragedy will be the trial and execution of Bin Laden.

I seriously doubt it will be a fair trial(guilty or not). With it will die the American Promise. If he did do it he has crafted the most ingenious attack yet. Why waste your own resources when your enemy will gladly tear itself apart trying to prevent the 'Next Big Terror'.

I could, hopefully, be wrong.

Re:Greatest Tragedies of 21st Century (1)

reynaert (264437) | about 13 years ago | (#2323514)

The Third Great Tragedy will be that the guys who actually planned the attack will get away with it.

Dammit slashdot (-1, Offtopic)

Magumbo (414471) | about 13 years ago | (#2323404)

I'm getting tired of hearing about your server crashes. It's bad enough when I'm at work and the site doesn't load, but do we really need to hear yet another story about the big lumbering beast that is Slash?

Say one thing, vote another (2, Insightful)

tsarina (456482) | about 13 years ago | (#2323406)

"We're in a new world where we have to rebalance freedom and security," said House Democratic Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt, D-Mo. "We're not going to have all the openness and freedom we have had."...Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., repeated the warning: "When you're in this type of conflict, when you're at war, civil liberties are treated differently."

And yet only Barbara Lee voted out of concern for that. If congresspeople do truly see that their actions against the people's rights have huge consequences, and end up only extending the harms of the terrorist attacks, why do they vote otherwise? Because the public calls for extensive action. Because they want to look 'tough' on terrorism. Surely something should be done. But indiscriminate rights violations are not the way to respond to the attacks. It is a short-sighted knee jerk, with long-term consequences.

AN EFFICIENT WORKER IS A HAPPY WORKER (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323412)

Work and be happy, Citizen!

There are people who want to make war, simply that (2)

Futurepower(tm) (228467) | about 13 years ago | (#2323416)


To understand the present assault on freedom, it is necessary to understand the background. There are people who want to make war, simply that, as a way of acting out their own inner conflict.

What is the most important lesson of the terrorism? Understanding the corruption in the secret agencies of the U.S. government. They have a conflict of interest; they are supposed to help prevent trouble, but they get more money if there is more trouble.

I have tried to pull together information about this in an article: What Should be the Response to Violence? [hevanet.com] . The article is now considerably improved.

only anarchism=freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323436)

the governments job is to tell you not to do things and force you to do other things.
either you are an anarchist and want freedom, or you want oppression.

Re:There are people who want to make war, simply t (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323495)

So was it the aliens or the cyborgs?

I get so confused with the plot of the X-Files, but i'm glad they're there to expose the government for what it is. A giant alien/cyborg conspiracy.

Its a good thing your so informed, we need more people fighting against the evil reason.

Want to save freedom? install freenet NOW! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323418)

http://freenet.sourceforge.net/

Go download/install the latest version, and take an active role in trying to protect freedom... while you still can!

Another shameless plug:

http://127.0.0.1:8081/MSK@SSK@9BRxNPeBdBVvWUIJb7 et C52nlUUQAgE/ContentOfEvil//

Enjoy this site, while you still can!

History could serve us well if only we'd remember (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323422)

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/index.h tml [whatreallyhappened.com]

Read it in light of this.

MIND THAT PARCEL! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323423)

Eagle Eyes can save a Life!

Post your WTC/Pentagon jokes here! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323425)


to get you started.. hee hee

World Trade Center / Pentagon Jokes

What does WTC stand for? - "What Trade Center?"

Q: Who are the fastest readers in the world?
A: New Yorkers. Some of them go through 110 stories in 5 seconds

Q: Why do tourists flock to New York?
A: It's a blast

The FBI has just identified the man who trained the hijackers: Dale
Earnhardt.

At the World Trade Center restaurant, they offered three seating areas:
smoking, non-smoking and burned beyond recognition.

They dont need any more volunteers to help at the WTC: they have found 5000
extra pairs of hands...

New York, New York, so good they hit it twice

American Airlines is now offering sight seeing tours of Manhattan!

Q: What is world most efficient airline?
A: American Airlines, leave Boston 8:15...be in your office in New York
8:48!

What was the last thing going through Mr. Jones head sitting in 90th floor
of the WTC ? - The 91st floor.....

What was the last thing going through Mr. Smiths head sitting in 110th floor
of the WTC ? - The radio mast...

America's new math:
Q: Now how many sides to a Pentagon?
A: 4

If one side of the Pentagon has collapsed, will it now be renamed "The
Square"?

It should be renamed "The Penta-gone"

It should be renamed "Manflatten"

Famous last words: "Amal, was this tower here yesterday?"

American Airline's pilot announcement:
"Ladies and gentlemen, we'll be landing on New York in about 10
minutes....."

Well, this proves one thing.... New Yorkers really come together in a crunch

Today FBI concluded that New York had been hit by a U.F.M
(unidentified flying muslim)

Q: What did one terrorist say to the other terrorist before boarding their
respective airplanes?
A: I slam, you slam, we all slam for Islam!

NEWSFLASH.... The WTC has been destroyed.... thousands of New York
executives feared dead.... Hookers all across the city are in mourning.....

"25,000 sq. ft. Office space for rent. Recently renovated. New Air
Conditioning unit. Needs TLC. Contact me at One World Trade Centre. 85th
Floor, Room 18."

"It's a bird!"
"It's a plane!"
"It's.... Oh fuck, it IS a plane!"

Q: Why didn't Superman stop the planes from hitting the Trade Towers?
A: Because he's a quadriplegic!

Q: What do you call a dust storm?
A: Trade winds.

Q: What's the area code of the World Trade Center?
A: 220 (two to zero).

Q: What should have tipped off the ticket sellers?
A: When the terrorists asked if there was anything cheaper than one-way.

Q: What was the quickest escape time from the World Trade Center?
A: Ten seconds flat.

Q: How long does it take to reach the ground from 107 stories up?
A: The rest of your life

Q: Why are police and firemen New York's finest?
A: Because now you can run them through a sieve.

Optimism, as you fall past the 20th floor you shout "I'm not hurt yet"

How many New Yorkers does it take to change a light bulb?
God knows, they keep jumping out the window when it gets too hot

What's the number one drink served on United Airlines?
Flaming Manhattan

What music do they play in the elevator in the WTC?
Jump and It's Raining Men

Floor 106...... you ARE the weakest link.... goodbye....

What color were the pilots eyes?
Blue. One blew this way the other blew that way

What team does Bin Laden support?
The New York Jets

Where do Americans go on vacation?
All over Manhattan

How many Americans died in the WTC Tuesday?
who gives a fuck

What's the difference between Wembley and New York?
Wembley's still got their twin towers.

What's the difference between the attack on New York and the Oklahoma City
Bombing? - Again foreigners prove they can do it better and more
efficiently......

Then there's the retarded terrorist who tried to crash the A-Train into the
World Trade Center..........

Yassar Arraffat and many other PLO members together with people from other
Muslim nations are *Volunteering* to give blood for the victims of the
tragedy... I guess they'll have some *Volunteers* to Fly the blood in too!

Last words from Airline pilot "Right a bit, hey the trade centre, my
brother works there...lets look just a bit closer...."

The FBI have arrested the head of advertising at the Empire State Building
for involvement in the WTC disaster. A spokesman said he was caught with
'Empire State: We're Back!!!' T-shirts in his office...

Top 10 Good Things About The WTC Attack

10. There are now 18 fewer Arab taxi drivers terrorizing the streets.
9. Flight training schools proved that they are expensive but worth it.
8. People are learning how to spell "Afghanistan" correctly.
7. Plenty of parking available at airports now.
6. Jerry Springer Show was off the air for a whole week.
5. Sales for U.S. flags are way up.
4. Several new job openings now at NYPD and NYFD.
3. Much lower electric bills for Manhattan.
2. Home videos of the WTC attack more spectacular than Arnold
Schwarzenegger's last 5 movies.
And the number one ...
1. Some great new unobstructed views of Manhattan now.

Re:Post your WTC/Pentagon jokes here! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323440)

I'm ugly, fat, and smelly, and I haven't been laid in 5 years.

But I bet even I could get a nice piece of ass in New York.

Re:Post your WTC/Pentagon jokes here! (1)

Senor_Salsa (522439) | about 13 years ago | (#2323442)

you are either sick, twisted, or have no family or friends who died in the incident. Id tear off your head and shit down your throat except i have no arms and just went to the bathroom...damn amenities.

Re:Post your WTC/Pentagon jokes here! (0, Troll)

Dolly_Llama (267016) | about 13 years ago | (#2323467)

sick...but damn funny.

Maybe the FBI/NSA allowed this to happen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323427)

Maybe this "intelligence failure" was not an accident. At this point the american people will agree to just about anything. Someone in the government could have seen this as an "ends justifies the means" method of saving us from future disasters. (by intentionally allowing something "small" (more than a few people, less than a nuke))

Strange knee-jerk restrictions can occur (2, Interesting)

Mandelbrute (308591) | about 13 years ago | (#2323433)

In Australia during the Falklands war, the song "Six Months In A Leaky Boat" by Split Enz was banned from radio airplay.

Either then, or during the Gulf war, "Imagine" by John Lennon was banned.

Both decisions appeared to be a bit strange, but were just as legal as resticting people from swearing on radio.

Australia, of course, has no free speech amendment. The USA does, for now.

CHOICE IS FEAR, LET US DECIDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323437)

Citizen, your task has been chosen!

IMHO (2)

Auckerman (223266) | about 13 years ago | (#2323445)

You know my biggest fear isn't any loss of freedom, in the end the Supreme Court has a habit of shooting that stuff down for the bullshit it is. My biggest fear is encased in the following scenerio:

Let's say for the sake of arguement, they find people in the US who helped conspire the attacks on Sept 11. Now lets assume it was based of a broadened search that Congress allows. Okay, the person(s) responsible get convicted and go to jail. Now they appeal that search warrent used to tap your email, and insist they should have gotten a wiretap for it. The Supreme Court agrees and thows out ALL evidence based of the improper search and gives them a new trial. Now with probabally all evidence gone, someone may have to be se free. That's what I fear. Congresss being shortsighted and seeking a quick solution and in the end get no justice cause the laws used to find the people were unconstitional.

Re:IMHO (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323505)

You know my biggest fear isn't any loss of freedom, in the end the Supreme Court has a habit of shooting that stuff down for the bullshit it is.


I seem to remember only a few years ago that meaningful encryption was banned from export/import. The supreme court wasn't able to stop that.


I want a constitutional ammendment guaranteeing me the right to encryption.

freedom zealots (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323453)

Get over it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I would wager that most Americans, one year from now, won't see a difference in the amount of freedom they have, yet our country will have a much better chance at stopping madmen such as osama. Only slashdotters will bitch that the camera at the red light down the street might be taking pictures of their bedroom instead of speeders. Yet they will continue to live here and draw a paycheck. I for one don't give a rats ass if they tap my phone and catch me dialing a 976 number. It's better than what the typical afghanistan resident would get for such a "crime".

Re:freedom zealots (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323500)

exactly. besides, what if the govenment finds out you called 976-fuck-goats or look at goatse.cx all day? do you really think that they're going to throw you in jail or something?

Impeach all supporters (2)

Sarcasmooo! (267601) | about 13 years ago | (#2323456)

I'm no expert on the process, but I'm fairly certain that elected officials take an oath to preserve freedom, democracy, and the bill of rights. Following the attacks, supporters of what would amount to a policed-state, or a country under martial law (where the intelligence arm of the government would act as the military force), haven't even bothered to mask their intentions. They simply say things like, 'US citizens will need to lose certain freedoms in order for our agenda to be met'. This example is a little extreme; but it seems as much a contradiction as hitler sitting in the oval office, and running this democracy according to his interpretation of the constitution. The kinds of proposals being made in the house and the senate aren't just crossing a line, they're pissing all over the line. Particularly, legislation dealing with immigrants who've simply been suspected of illegal activity borders on fascism. I suspect that most politicians who support these measures, or have already voted to pass them, haven't even had the patience to actually read what they're writing into law. If they do know what they're doing, they should be removed from office.

united states, the police state (2, Informative)

fault0 (514452) | about 13 years ago | (#2323459)

well, I think that we are sliding down the path to becoming a police state. It's actually pretty popular right now.

Don't beleive me? look at the latest gallup polls here [gallup.com] .

What was particularily shocking was this:

Requiring Arabs, including those who are U.S. citizens, to carry a special ID.

49% supported this, and 49% opposed it. That is incredibly insane. Perhaps those 49% who supported it should be especially identified for being morons :).

April, 1942: (2)

AMuse (121806) | about 13 years ago | (#2323460)

April, 1942:

The civil liberties of thousands of Japanese American citizens were restricted during wartime. Later, this was called an atrocity.

To any senators or congressmen listening:

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

The Great Hanshin Earthquake (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323463)

I live in Kobe, Japan. A few years ago, a large earthquake shook the city and killed over 5,000 people, leveled many buildings, and destroyed roads. The damage to people's lives, not to mention the infrastructure, was great. Fires raged for days, destroying, because nobody could get to them to put them out. Everything was in chaos. It was quite horrible.

Today, there's no sign that an earthquake happened. The buildings are rebuilt, the highway is rebuilt, and everything is the same as it was, except that over 5,000 people are dead. Their families still grieve.

The only difference is that you can't take revenge on an Earthquake. You just move on, build stronger buildings, and help your friends who lost loved ones.

Banned songs (3, Informative)

terri rolle (413434) | about 13 years ago | (#2323468)

Amongst the numerous inflammatory examples used in the editorial was this:
a radio network circulated a list of songs that would be problematic to play

I'm sick of seeing this [snopes2.com] blown out of proportion over and over again. It's not an infringement of our civil liberties. It's just a radio network making recommendations to its stations on how not to offend the fuck out of their listeners the day after five thousand people were murdered. As far as I can tell that's just good business sense combined with a little sensitivity.

How's the UK? (2)

camusflage (65105) | about 13 years ago | (#2323470)

Other than that whole "give us your keys or we throw you in jail" thing, how's the UK when it comes to civil liberties? My wife was born there, and my understanding is that it'd be possible for me to become a naturalized citizen. That being said, what's the overall climate across the pond?

my 2 cents (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323473)

should be from the enough-already-department. look, we get it -- there are a lot of paranoid, left-wing, linux-worhipers on this site. jesus christ, you all make it sound like the usa is on the verge of being under martial law with no rights whatsoever. look, all that's being proposed are some extensions of the government's ability to sniff email and wire-tap specific people as opposed to phone numbers. they aren't gonna tatoo barcodes on our fucking asses and put cameras in our home bathrooms. you aren't going to have your freedom of speech taken away. sure, if you are doing something illegal or suspicious from a national security point of view, you are going to have to watch what you say on the phone or on email. but, geez, if you are doing something untoward that the fbi or cia is going to be interested in, you probably deserve to be caught. moreover, at least as email goes, no one, i don't care about pgp or any encryption mumbo-jumbo, no one should have ever thought email is private or secure. if you do, you're a fuckin' moron. above all, people, get a grip, as long as you aren't breaking a law (and yes the dcma, no matter what your opinion of it is, is the law and if you break it you deserve to be caught) or planning to blow up something, the government doesn't give a flying fuck what you do or say. this is still the usa people! i'm all for freedom AND security, so save your ben franklin quotes. it's been way over-quoted anyway.

finally, i have to ask: if this country's government is so on the verge of becoming a facist, dictator-ish police state, are we even free now? if you really think our country is like that, if our elected government is really like that, is the usa worth saving anyway?

Answer the call but don't let them make us do stuf (1)

gone.fishing (213219) | about 13 years ago | (#2323475)

Yesterday on the one week anniversary of the attacks on New York and Washington D.C. I visited some veterans. They were in the cemetery near my home. While they didn't say much, their mere presence spoke volumes. In this particular plot, only people who died in service to their country are buried.

These brave men and women served and died for their country and our freedom. They left behind parents, spouses, children and other loved ones. They paid the ultimate price for our freedom. Row on row of simple white marble headstones that simply state the person's name date of birth and death, branch of service and in some cases a little more information.

Some cultures believe your ancestors' spirits talk to you. When you visit a place like this, searching for answers, something happens. Mere thoughts take on a deeper meaning and you gain an introspective that you can't find anyplace else. I guess in a way, I can say that I visited this place with questions and in their own way, the spirits of these solders and sailors helped guide me. I didn't get answers but I gained insight.

Is this war on terrorism going to be a war like Viet-Nam, or will it be like the war on drugs or the war on poverty? Or will it be something else that we have never seen before? I understand that this attack needs to be answered and frankly, I think we owe that to those that paid the ultimate price in all the wars that came before this one. They deserve that. So do the innocent victims and their families. So do the rest of us. I am no hawk and I find it hard to believe that I feel this way but damn-it, I do. Deep down in my soul, I do.

One of my fears is that our military is ill-prepared to fight this kind of war. I am afraid that the military will spend a lot of time chasing the shadows of invisible enemies. I fear that the generals will use their force when finesse is called for. I am afraid that this war calls for new methods, new polices, and special kinds of intelligence that the military will be slow or unwilling to adopt. I am afraid that innocent people will die. I am afraid too many solders will die.

It is clear to me that the terrorists have already scored a victory. They have successfully interrupted commerce in the free world and driven some important businesses to the brink of bankruptcy. I think that was their primary goal. The Statue of Liberty would have been a better symbolic target and the U.N. would have been a better political target. The terrorists depend on predictable reactions to further their damage. These reactions are costly and serve to destabilize our economy even further. Governments and business' take security seriously at times like this. While security is necessary, it is not "productive employment" in the sense that security guards, alarm companies, and other security related business' do not produce anything yet they do cost. These costs are ultimately passed along to the consumer of the products or in the case of government security, in the form of taxes. It does not take a genius to see that if this continues for long we will be in for a bout of recession and inflation. As a nation we will become less productive and our dollar worth less. If we allow this to happen, the terrorists will have scored another significant victory.

Another thing that concerns me is that it is possible that we as citizens of the most free nation on the face of the earth, we may be willing to give up some of our liberty in exchange for a feeling of greater security. There are a myriad small ways that this can happen. Perhaps the police will be more free to stop and check-out people meeting specific profiles. Maybe we start to allow ourselves to be subject to more significant searches before we fly or go to a sporting event. Maybe in the interest of security, schools implement security procedures that make classrooms less accessible to parents. Maybe our freedoms will be impinged on in less obvious ways, like "data-mining" used by government agencies in an effort to detect potential terrorists based on profiles developed by researching the habits of known and suspected terrorists. Maybe courts in the name of "National Security" will be quicker to issue wiretap and surveillance orders. Technologies like Carnivore and Echelon are truly frightening. The U.S. admits that Carnivore exists (it is used to tap email and other digital communications) but they do not admit the existence of Echelon despite the fact that the European Union recently voted to condemn it after being presented with overwhelming evidence of its existence. The day after the attacks the government acknowledged that they had tapes of the conversations between passengers on the hijacked planes and their families. How could this be if not for something like Echelon (and this would also indicate that Echelon is being use on domestic communications). I would not even be surprised to see the federal government tighten laws regarding the purchase, ownership and perhaps even registration of firearms of all types. I'm also concerned that the government may require recording information related to the purchase of some legal products that can be used for terrorism.

On top of all of this we will see new regulations in many industries designed to make them less attractive to terrorists. We are already seeing some of this. There are now more restrictions on airline travel. Knives and even nail clippers are now prohibited on aircraft! I think most of these procedures really do little to deter a determined terrorist but simply are a panacea designed to make travelers feel safer. In order to make aircraft more hijack proof they would have to remove all of the weapons that would be available to a terrorist on the aircraft itself. That would mean having to remove the fire extinguishers (which can be used as clubs) as well as the Champaign bottles from first-class which can be used as a club or when broken as a sharp object.

Are we willing to give up liberties to feel a little safer? Should we do this? No, those that fought and died in previous wars did so to guarantee the freedom that we are almost willing to give up today. We need to fight this war but just as importantly, we need to do so on our terms. We can not let the terrorists dictate these conditions. In order to be successful, we need to get back to business as usual as quickly as possible. We can not change who we are or what we do because of an invisible enemy. If we do not do this we will no longer be a free people and then the terrorists will have won. This is what I believe the spirits of the solders would want.

Re:Answer the call but don't let them make us do s (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323509)

Of course, the protection of civil liberties is extremely important, but the protection of the lives of these same freedom-loving people is _crucial_. I don't doubt that the people murdered or scarred by these attacks wouldn't mind a limitation or breach of their liberties if they could have their lives back.

cornhole? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323477)

what does it mean to 'cornhole' someone?

My feelings as follows: (2, Informative)

mrBoB (63135) | about 13 years ago | (#2323483)

I saw someone quoted Ben Franklin somewhere, might have been here, but one line summarizes my feelings:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

This is America. Our nation was creating holding "(many) truths to be self-evident." These notions are intended to transcend time, most importantly that every man be free (of religous persecution, to have viewpoints not necessarily in line with the current gov't trends, etc.) to be free enough to pursue what he desires (make money, run his own church, whatever). When we enact LAWS _restricting_ these freedoms, we are IMHO throwing 300+ years of fighting. My fellow Americans need to learn there are things more valuable to _Humankind_ than life. The freedom to choose. People in many other nations don't get _choice_. Choice comes with responsibilty and perhaps we've been irresponsible (for the past 50-100 years!) but we should really do something to change. We have a unique opportunity here, amidst this travesty... One of the things we must keep focused on, however, is that which allowed us to get this far. We must observe and protect the Constitution of the United States. Keep in mind, the President (and pretty much anyone else who serves the Fed Gov't) _swears_ to do so on Inauguration day.

just my 0.02

-Bob

Re:My feelings as follows: (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323513)

Stop using that quote! A one hour delay at an Airport is not BIG Brother!

KEEP YOUR HEAD HIGH (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2323488)

Fear not Citizen, we're watching and protecting.

Irresponsable rabble-rousing! (1, Flamebait)

none2222 (161746) | about 13 years ago | (#2323491)

What this guy Paul McMaster's forgets, is, WE ARE AT WAR! We didn't start it, but we intend to finish it (which will involve 'finishing' lots of arabs--hell yeah!). America has never lost a war, and I see no reason to let our record be sullied now.


If winning the fight against evil means restricting our civil liberties, then so be it. The last thing we need right now is people criticizing the government, and that includes people whining about restrictions on their "civil liberties". Come on, people! It's only by the grace of the US Government that you have those "rights" to begin with. And if, in order to sustain itself and protect the American people, the government needs to take back some of those privileges we've grown used to, you have nothing to complain about. You should be THANKING the government for letting you have freedom of speech for all those years.


Let's examine some of the issues MacMasters is concerned about.


Anti-leaks legislation, dubbed the "official secrets acts" by those who are deeply concerned about its impact on speech and the press and the flow of critical information to the public.

"Critical" information? Well, if it's "critical" to the public, then it must be even more critical to terrorists, who will use it against us. The last thing we need right now is for information to be available to everyone. If you don't absolutely NEED a piece of information, you have no business knowing it, or attempting to get your hands on it. Anyone who has a problem with this is aiding terrorist and is exactly the type of person we need to fight.

The Flag Desecration Act, which would for the first time in the history of our nation amend the First Amendment to prohibit burning the flag as a form of political dissent.

How could anyone have a problem with this? If you are in favor of desecrating Old Glory, you have no business being in this country. Go to Afgahanistan, and join your ideological bedmates.

Fake Terror - The Road to Dictatorship (1, Offtopic)

Dolly_Llama (267016) | about 13 years ago | (#2323498)

Moderation Totals: Flamebait=1

How did this really make it on Slashdot? and from a website called "whatreallyhappened" gimme a break.

Maybe if there were some theory about how Bill Gates is using XP as a tool to gain dictatorship..

Government By, For, And Of The People (2)

Pinball Wizard (161942) | about 13 years ago | (#2323503)

If that's what we have, and the vast majority wants to trade their freedom for a little more security, who are we to say that that government shouldn't provide it for them?


What are we do do when the vast majority of the population desires a government that is in stark contrast to its Constitution?


I wish I knew the answer.

charged language clouds the issue (1)

deft (253558) | about 13 years ago | (#2323511)

I'm getting sick of everyone saying "restricting freedom" and being blindly against the notion because it rolls off the tounge easily.

all of your "freedoms" are restricted for your OWN safety right now. you can't walk out on the tarmac because you might get hit by a plane taking off. and you can't drive a tank, fire an uzi in the bus station for fun, etc. drastic examples, but only to make the point that you arent free to do alot of things for your OWN SAFETY.

well now they need to make new rules to keep terrorists from blowing up more things.

so lets not call it restricting your freedom...you arent free. your just more unrestricted than other citizens in other countries.

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?