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US Tech Firms Recruiting High Schoolers (And Younger)

Soulskill posted about 4 months ago | from the there-oughta-be-a-law-enforcing-the-laws-we-already-have dept.

Businesses 253

ShaunC writes: Is there a glut of qualified American tech workers, or isn't there? Some companies like Facebook and Airbnb are now actively courting and recruiting high school students as young as 13 with promises of huge stipends and salaries. As one student put it, "It's kind of insane that you can make more than the U.S. average income in a summer." Another who attended a Facebook-sponsored trip said he'd "forego college for a full-time job" if it were offered. Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of naive young workers?

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I'm glad that they're doing it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411313)

This has been happening since forever but in the age of over reporting and hot button news, it comes to no surprise that this is being publicized. Intelligent young minds need to be pulled out of the educational system and placed where they can perform, learn, and grow. Publishing it in the news is a negative thing, as groups like women in computing complain that no girls are being recruited, and the poor will complain that "a kid" is making more than they are as a factory worker that gave up on their education before they even got started.

What is the use of school to Facebook? (3, Insightful)

glennrrr (592457) | about 4 months ago | (#47411319)

Mark Zuckerberg got into Harvard, he recruits heavily from people who got into Ivy League schools. Why? Because IQ tests are banned for employment purposes, and he has to use the proxy of SAT scores which allowed people to get into competitive schools. Any actual benefit of attending said schools is purely secondary. Here he's found another way to find the smart kids, and they don't have to spend $30,000 a year to prove they are smart kids. It's a win, win.

Re:What is the use of school to Facebook? (1)

reanjr (588767) | about 4 months ago | (#47411475)

What?

Not in the US. IQ tests are not uncommon here. There's a social stigma against using them, but there's nothing even close to a ban.

Re:What is the use of school to Facebook? (3, Insightful)

sumdumass (711423) | about 4 months ago | (#47411549)

IQ tests would pretty much fall under aptitude tests which under tort law seems to have been banned. It's also why a high school diplomas became necessary for trivial jobs- if someone had a high school diploma they met certain minimum job requirements. This also led to the schools becoming training camps for local employment opportunities also.

Employers used to give aptitude tests before everyone graduated high school or even before schools had real standards for a diploma. Eventually, these aptitude tests were applied to discriminate against people based on race or sex and so on and there were quite a few lawsuits over it that with employers losing. I believe the big one was Griggs v. Duke Power Co 1971 and there is a history after that including addressing a ruling in the 1991 civil rights act.

It's not specifically barred- but there is a high risk of being sued over their use- especially if the employment space is not diverse enough to "prove" they are unbiased (quotas).

we need A GED for college (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47411747)

http://articles.chicagotribune... [chicagotribune.com]

if they want to set a min level without the high cost of college and then they can take people from the teach / trades / learn on there own.

Re:we need A GED for college (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412147)

Why? You can take all the college classes for free - all a test does is make money for someone else and cost you funds.

College for technical roles puts you at a minimum of 4 years behind the curve. Ignore it and you'll be better off by far.

Oh, and I don't believe in forcing people to learn a 2nd language, unless you intend to count programming languages.

Re:What is the use of school to Facebook? (4, Informative)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about 4 months ago | (#47411657)

but there's nothing even close to a ban.

The Supreme Court of the United States [wikipedia.org] disagrees with you.

Did you read the ruling? It's not a ban. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412189)

The Supreme Court of the United States [wikipedia.org] disagrees with you.

No it isn't:

The Supreme Court ruled that under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, if such tests disparately impact ethnic minority groups, businesses must demonstrate that such tests are "reasonably related" to the job for which the test is required.

You can test people as long as it is "reasonably related" to the job and isn't done in a way that artificially discriminates against a protected class. Difficult, but not a ban.

Re:What is the use of school to Facebook? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 4 months ago | (#47411697)

Selling to schools, parents and teachers?
Just as a search engine brand likes do deals with US government agencies directly...subcontractor like
Why not do do deals with US educational institutions directly...
You need lobbying, sales reps... partnerships with established contractors and end up with partnerships that range from a few thousand dollars to multiple millions.

Re:What is the use of school to Facebook? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411925)

> Why? Because IQ tests are banned for employment purposes, and he has to use the proxy of SAT scores which allowed people to get into competitive schools.

False. [go.com] The fact that the cops are allowed to discriminate by IQ is a pretty strong counter-example to any claim that IQ tests are banned.

Re:What is the use of school to Facebook? (0)

Jiro (131519) | about 4 months ago | (#47412211)

That one was hiring people with low scores, not people with high scores. Hiring people with low scores won't be seen as discriminating against blacks (who on the average get lower scores), so would be permitted.

What is the use of school to Facebook? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412221)

Ivy League Schools are about the money, not IQ.

MiT is not ivy league, but they do take some really intelligent people.

Isn't this technically human trafficking? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411321)

You get out there and muthafuking code. Daddy needs some clicks!

yes (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411329)

duh

Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of the naive? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411337)

Doesn't everyone? They are cheap and willing to work long hours. That's all that matters anymore.

Re:Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of the naive (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 4 months ago | (#47411405)

If you want to "go max" with cheap & long, get E. Indian highschoolers who are dirt poor; they work for peanuts, literally.

Re:Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of the naive (1)

Kaenneth (82978) | about 4 months ago | (#47411769)

"they work for peanuts, literally"

By 'E. Indian' did you mean 'Elephants (Indian)'?

Re:Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of the naive (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412203)

But it also takes 20 of them and 50 times as long for them to end up failing and you do the work instead of them just so it will get done, and done correctly.

Karma doesn't solve anything, and if you don't understand how to word a query, your google answers suck too.

Re:Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of the naive (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412241)

A lot of Indians work for Facebook. Every person who got hired probably outlasted a 100 applicants. Considering Facebook's reputation of also trying to hire a lot of white people, your argument just backfired on itself.

Not new (0)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | about 4 months ago | (#47411345)

In 1999, my company offered an 18 year old summer intern a programming job. He turned us down to attend college. Spending 4 years doing calculus and reading The Count of Monte Cristo was not going to improve his earnings potential. Spending 4 years in a real office doing real programming would have improved his earnings potential.

Re:Not new (5, Insightful)

russotto (537200) | about 4 months ago | (#47411379)

In 1999, my company offered an 18 year old summer intern a programming job. He turned us down to attend college. Spending 4 years doing calculus and reading The Count of Monte Cristo was not going to improve his earnings potential. Spending 4 years in a real office doing real programming would have improved his earnings potential.

Short term. But when he tried to change jobs, he'd find a lot of opportunities closed to him because just about every company wants a degree. I've known a number of non-degreed programmers who have gone back to get one for that reason.

Quitting school to found a startup might make sense; at least it's honest gambling. Quitting school to take a regular job doesn't; the job or one like it will still be there when you graduate.

Re:Not new (0)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | about 4 months ago | (#47411403)

Most companies want degrees OR equivalent work experience. I went back to school as a 23 year old and quit soon after because I got tired of professors telling me things that I had taught myself years earlier as part of my job.

Re:Not new (2)

khellendros1984 (792761) | about 4 months ago | (#47411493)

Out of curiosity, what drove you to try going back to school, after successfully starting a career?

Re:Not new (1)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | about 4 months ago | (#47411733)

I moved and couldn't find a good job in the new town, so I went back to school because it seemed like a good idea.

Re:Not new (4, Informative)

AuMatar (183847) | about 4 months ago | (#47411501)

But equivalent work experience is a lot longer. I might believe that someone with no degree and a decade plus of experience is as good as someone with a degree and 3-4 years, but he'd have to prove it. I find almost nobody without at least 3 years of college has a decent grasp of the fundamentals of computer science- data structures, algorithms, critical thinking and design. The people without degrees tend to just know how to google for answers and copy the results, and god forbid you change frameworks or languages on them- they're hopeless. Its to the point that no degree and less than 6 or 7 years of experience isn't going to get an interview over a guy right out of college because the odds favor the college grad having a higher ceiling.

Re: Not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411873)

Yeah, most people don't seem to self study data structures, calculus, discrete mathematics, algorithms, etc.

Re: Not new (1)

jeIIomizer (3670945) | about 4 months ago | (#47412067)

Most colleges and universities also don't provide a good education. What is your point?

Re: Not new (1)

jeIIomizer (3670945) | about 4 months ago | (#47412077)

And comparing self-education done wrong with formal education done right is just silly.

Re:Not new (1)

cavreader (1903280) | about 4 months ago | (#47411889)

Google and the internet in general is fantastic resource and denigrating those who take advantage of those resources is silly. And college may be heavy on the theory behind computer science concepts it does not put much effort into teaching the intricacies and pros and cons of the various frameworks floating around today. It is also pretty easy to tailor interview questions to get a good understanding of the applicants skillset and knowledge. Judging someone's programming skills is a lot easier than gauging someone's accounting skills or general business administration skills. The tricky part falls on the interviewer to make the questions and topics relevant and fair for both beginners and experts depending on the position. I have found that introducing a general concept and letting the applicant explain their understanding of the concept is better than asking direct questions about things such as language syntax or esoteric discussions on compiler directives. I could probably come up with 5 legitimate questions about C++ or any other related technical area that even a hardcore veteran would be hard pressed to answer correctly. I have conducted technical interviews on and off for almost 20 years and I can't remember a single time where a candidates college degree ever factored prominently in evaluating an applicant. And get real. I will take someone with 10 years of experience over a college graduate with 3 or 4 years every day of the week. Don't get me wrong a college degree is a definite plus but it is not a very good indicator of how well the person will perform on the job.

Re:Not new (1)

jeIIomizer (3670945) | about 4 months ago | (#47412075)

I find almost nobody without at least 3 years of college has a decent grasp of the fundamentals of computer science- data structures, algorithms, critical thinking and design.

I find that most people who went to college don't understand such things, either.

Re:Not new (2)

mwehle (2491950) | about 4 months ago | (#47411525)

Most companies want degrees OR equivalent work experience. I went back to school as a 23 year old and quit soon after because I got tired of professors telling me things that I had taught myself years earlier as part of my job.

Varies with the discipline. I returned to school to study history after some years of political organizing and found value in professors' teaching of historiography that I never would have gained from years of reading history. After ten years of working as a software engineer I started a masters in computer science and found professors were woefully behind the industry. YMMV.

Re:Not new (1)

ATMAvatar (648864) | about 4 months ago | (#47412083)

History in general doesn't change quite as quickly as computer science - only recent history does.

Re:Not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411761)

Most companies want degrees OR equivalent work experience. I went back to school as a 23 year old and quit soon after because I got tired of professors telling me things that I had taught myself years earlier as part of my job.

Just knowing how to program is very one-dimensional. Unless you're doing foundational level work and are phenomenal, you're coding with some level of business at hand. And then there are math courses & computation theory, which doesn't hurt.

If you're smart enough to pick up the math knowledge without the help of a professor, kudos to you. But I found that having a good foundation in calculus, prob/stats, number theory (of course), and sets were all extremely helpful.

Still, if I had my way I would've taken programming and non-theory/non-math computer courses during my middle school years; and then spent college majoring in math rather than CS. Sadly the only coding course open to me at the time I was growing up was a BASIC course, which I knew more of than the instructor; and I could only dream of being part of the C64 warez/demo seen (yes, get off of my lawn).

Re:Not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412089)

Most companies want degrees OR equivalent work experience. I went back to school as a 23 year old and quit soon after because I got tired of professors telling me how to correctly do things that I had incorrectly taught myself years earlier as part of my job.

Re:Not new (1)

mikael (484) | about 4 months ago | (#47411417)

Some companies only look for people with MSc's or a PhD, but then there are those companies which only consider those with higher qualifications for non-programming jobs. So it's something to think about if you consider doing a MSc as as "refresher" to learn new skills when the job market is tight.

Re:Not new (1)

houstonbofh (602064) | about 4 months ago | (#47411615)

Some companies only look for people with MSc's or a PhD...

I love companies like that! They give me a lot of consulting work when the ivory tower hits the real world.

Re:Not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412061)

Except that that just means schools are being looked at as job training. If you're going to college/university because you want a job, you're going for the wrong reason. And employers that require degrees are imbeciles.

For people who don't fit into the formal education environment, they have to take their chances.

Re:Not new (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411395)

If the only reason you went to college was for a paycheck then you don't understand education at all.

Re:Not new (1)

knightghost (861069) | about 4 months ago | (#47411625)

More likely "education" doesn't understand reality.

That being said, a good degree from a good course/school will teach you a lot of fundamentals that a job won't. That'll give you decades of work rather than the quick-dirty-burnout single job from no education.

education also has to much theory and non codeing (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47411809)

education also has to much theory and non coding jobs really don't need years of CS with big skill gaps.

Re:Not new (1)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | about 4 months ago | (#47411745)

You think education can only be gained by paying $20,000+ per year to a university?

"You dropped 150 grand on a fuckin' education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library"
-Will Hunting

Re:Not new (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47411901)

We need some kind of badges system for education that can fit into stuff that the older education is a poor fit for.

Out site of the USA the cost of university is much lower and then have alt's for people who are a better fit in trades like learning

Re:Not new (4, Insightful)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | about 4 months ago | (#47411433)

For every 1999 there's a 2001. Jobs like that tend to get either very competitive or just abandoned when the market contracts. Or they just replace you with some other youngin', since that seems to be the way that job segment is working.

Calculus + coding = Job for life, it's a combo that works really well and it's a market where age adds, rather than subtracts, value.

Re:Not new (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411617)

You can always go back to school, and the upside is that you can do it with the money you already earned rather than getting out and starting off in the hole while having a little more maturity and perspective on what you want to learn.

Not to mention the older dudes get the girls. If you're 22 as a Freshman, you're gonna have a pretty decent time. Especially if you've got 100k in the bank unlike most college kids who show up broke, stay broke and have to get a job to pay for beer and pizza.

Re:Not new (3, Interesting)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | about 4 months ago | (#47411853)

I guess I don't agree. School is for the young and unattached, it is not an easy thing to go back to at some later date. I'm not saying that no one can do so, I'm saying that no one I know has done so, but continue to either wish they had, or try to make it work but can't find the time between a day job to keep the mortgage paid and kids fed, and the vicious hours studying and doing homework.

I would make the opposite argument: there are always jobs and they always pay money. Unless you're talking about an opportunity with such a high compensation that you can afford to not work for 5 years and pay for school, it's a bad decision for most people. There are cases where it does make sense, but they seem to be the exception. Taking a wage slave job at FB versus going to school seems like a really bad gamble.

Re:Not new (1, Informative)

m00sh (2538182) | about 4 months ago | (#47411447)

In 1999, my company offered an 18 year old summer intern a programming job. He turned us down to attend college. Spending 4 years doing calculus and reading The Count of Monte Cristo was not going to improve his earnings potential. Spending 4 years in a real office doing real programming would have improved his earnings potential.

Keep telling yourself that.

An 18 year old is not going to enjoy spending his entire day with fat middle-aged office drones. He would rather go to college, party, make friends and score with other 18 year old girls.

He can always go back to a programming job anytime he wants.

Re:Not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411545)

..party, make friends and score with other 18 year old girls.

Your average 18 y/o probably would do those things.

An 18y/o programmer OTOH is more likely spending their Friday nights with a group of guys playing DnD.

In their mothers basement. Naturally.

Re:Not new (1)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | about 4 months ago | (#47411717)

When I was 20 and 21, I worked with adults in an office all day. Then on weekends I would drive down to the big college where all my friends went and partied my ass off. I spent thousands buying alcohol for all of my broke college friends, and I would do it all again.

college does not tech the right skills needed to d (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47411731)

college does not tech the right skills needed to do jobs now days. We need to have alts that take less time and give people skills that they need.

Re:college does not tech the right skills needed t (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411811)

Another poorly-spelled brain fart from JD here....

Re:Not new (5, Funny)

Kylon99 (2430624) | about 4 months ago | (#47411449)

Oh yes, definitely, very not new...

During the Industrial Revolution, factory owners were declaring that it was a waste of time for children to be going to school when they could better be spent making money mining for coal or scrubbing pots in factories. Why waste their time learning when clearly a child's life is better spent earning profits?

So...

Re:Not new (2)

sumdumass (711423) | about 4 months ago | (#47411605)

Actually, some supported schools quite a bit. Schools trained their employees. Factories had a problem with farm kids just wondering off and doing other things like they would on the farm. This was a big set back for industrialization so schools were opened in order to teach the children how to pay attention, follow direction, add and subtract and so on to be ready for the factories.

Perhaps after they were "trained", they decried their further education but initially, it was for their benefit for the most part.

http://www.geopolitics.us/why-... [geopolitics.us]

What about their next job? (3, Insightful)

Moof123 (1292134) | about 4 months ago | (#47411481)

It may not have changed his earning potential, but it greatly improves his opportunities if your company lays him off, goes bust, or just sucks. Having a degree on your resume is often needed just to get past the HR filter. I've met several folks who did very well despite their lack of degrees, and all want their kids to get one. You have to really sell yourself and rely on luck much more to get that next good job if you do not have a degree.

they just put down degree anyways or just buy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411709)

they just put down degree anyways or just buy one

Re:Not new (1)

Rinikusu (28164) | about 4 months ago | (#47411595)

I might've done the same. You only get to be young, dumb, and full of cum once (and mean it). Life is more than "earnings potential," you know.

Re:Not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411759)

Never trade 4 years of girls at their prime for a fucking job you can slave away at for the rest of your life.

Re:Not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412255)

In 1986 I worked an internship as a Sr. in high school. I skipped college and now work for a fortune 100 in a senior position.

Skipping college doesn't impact your chances at all if you have the can-do attitude and the correct aptitude for your career path.

People who require college degrees for positions are probably on the take from colleges to prop up a failing industry. Colleges don't exist to educate their students, colleges exist to make money for themselves, just like any other dinosaur corporation (RIAA/MPAA anyone?)

Silicon Valley taking advantage of young workers? (1)

vawarayer (1035638) | about 4 months ago | (#47411353)

Answer : yes

Next question : Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of naive parents? Coze they have to decide what's best for their kids, right?

Calling people naive? Someone sounds jealous. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411383)

I'm an older tech worker and would've loved a chance like that to work with Facebook or another startup as a sumer interm. ShaunC sounds quite jealous, though he's probably no leader and is some sort of low quality programmer or sys/db admin stuck in a crappy job. That's fine though, keep writing your biased summaries, your bitterness only amuses people like me who get to live and work anywhere we choose while consulting for the big bucks.

Take the money (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411415)

You can go to college later if you want or need to, especially if you rake in money for a few years.

Take the money (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411777)

You can go to college later if you want or need to, especially if you rake in money for a few years.

Are you a shill?

You dont rake in money for a few years. Those first few years are when companies exploit the hell out of you, before you finally wise up and move on elsewhere.

Of course without a bachelors it's much, much harder to make the jump to another company.

Re:Take the money (1)

BonThomme (239873) | about 4 months ago | (#47412215)

it's as if they found a way to create American H1-B's...

actors and athletes get paid at 13 (5, Interesting)

turkeydance (1266624) | about 4 months ago | (#47411419)

why not nerds?

Re: actors and athletes get paid at 13 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411469)

Good point. Plus on-the-job training could be an excellent learning opportunity.

Re:actors and athletes get paid at 13 (3, Informative)

slew (2918) | about 4 months ago | (#47411665)

Yes, but 13yo actors and athletes need special work permits and still need to attend to school whilst working.

In many localities, they must have part of their earnings put directly into trust funds (e.g., a Coogan account in California) so neither they or their parents will blow all the money on something, or up something...

Also, when the sums of money are large enough, many reputable employers require profession agent representation (so they don't claim to have been taken advantage of and sue later).

I doubt any of these internet companies are doing any of these even minimal best-practices/policies for these 13yo nerds (and these minimal things don't even prevent the Lindsey Lohans and Tracy Austins of the world)...

Re:actors and athletes get paid at 13 (1)

russotto (537200) | about 4 months ago | (#47412191)

Yes, but 13yo actors and athletes need special work permits and still need to attend to school whilst working.

These are summer internships; school is not an issue.

In many localities, they must have part of their earnings put directly into trust funds (e.g., a Coogan account in California) so neither they or their parents will blow all the money on something, or up something...

Four states, but the Coogan requirements in California and New York at least are specific to child performers, not all minors.

I doubt any of these internet companies are doing any of these even minimal best-practices/policies for these 13yo nerds (and these minimal things don't even prevent the Lindsey Lohans and Tracy Austins of the world)...

$18,000/year doesn't get you to Lindsey Lohan levels; she probably blows that in a night.

Once upon a time in America... (1)

creimer (824291) | about 4 months ago | (#47411485)

Children used to have a childhood. If they're not busting their guts for standardized testing, they're being recruited for technology companies. Parents can do only so much about standardized testing, but they can push back against recruiters storming the school gate for future employees. If technology companies want these kids so badly, they can wait until the senior year of high school to host job fairs and scholarships.

Re:Once upon a time in America... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411589)

Ya, we don't want standardized testing. That might lead to "measuring" and "comparing" and "improving" and those things lead to hurt feelings. Think of the children!

On the subject of testing - we don't want bridges or airplanes or anything tested anymore, either. Or at least not by any tests that test in a standard way. Imagine how traumatized an engineer might get if we did the tests.

Re:Once upon a time in America... (1)

Valvar (3537021) | about 4 months ago | (#47411743)

I agree with you in principle, but not in practice. The problem is that excessive amounts of time and effort are being directed towards said tests (not only on the part of the students, but more so that of the teachers). I firmly believe that their quantity should be drastically reduced in favour of their quality.

Re:Once upon a time in America... (1)

Nethemas the Great (909900) | about 4 months ago | (#47411941)

If accurate data can be obtained through once or twice yearly testing great. The huge problem I see though isn't so much the frequency but the simple fact that each little fiefdom has their own version of test. I fully believe that they do it on purpose so that I cannot compare my child's progress with other states, or god forbid, other countries. It is complete bullsh*t that appears to me to be meant to protect incompetent school systems. The means by how said school systems came to be incompetent is it's own matter and discussion. Right now however, it is really hard to hold anyone's feet to the fire because their little substantiating proof, only anecdote.

Re: Once upon a time in America... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412091)

Umm...aren't standardized tests supposed to be standard? Hopefully national but even standard across a state would be useful.

Re:Once upon a time in America... (1)

creimer (824291) | about 4 months ago | (#47411793)

The problem with standardized testing is that teachers are rote teaching the material that is relevant only to the test. Creativity and curiosity are pushed aside, preventing children from loving to learn. If children don't love learning, they won't enjoy learning new things as an adult. We live in a society where you can never stop learning.

As a computer technician, I run into too many technical people who hate learning new things even though they are in a field where learning new things is mandatory. These people become stagnated in their careers because of their unwillingness to learn new things. They will do the bare minimum to squeak through life. I can blame the current education system for squeezing creativity and curiosity out of these people at the alter of standardized testing.

Employers used to train people now they want schoo (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47411859)

Employers used to train people now they want schools that are not setup to do that kind of learning to teach skills that should be in a tech / trade school. But they don't like them to much and they can't use the people loaded with skill gaps coming out of some non tech schools.

Re:Employers used to train people now they want sc (3, Insightful)

creimer (824291) | about 4 months ago | (#47411897)

I worked at a Fortune 500 company that refused to train to workers because they would get certified and make more money at a competitor. Never mind that most people got frustrated from the lack of training, trained themselves and got certified on their own time, and made more money at a competitor. Corporate dysfunction at its best.

Re:Employers used to train people now they want sc (1)

Nethemas the Great (909900) | about 4 months ago | (#47412011)

I do not call effective communication (language skills), logic and deductive reasoning, civics, history (theory and application, not fact memorization), etc. a matter for employers, trade schools or universities. I call them necessary, foundational skills and knowledge that should be developed in every child regardless of future vocation. I consider the abject failure of most public schools systems to do so criminal.

Re:Once upon a time in America... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411663)

Nah, that's a rose-tinted fantasy. Children used to work in coal mines.

Re:Once upon a time in America... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411887)

Or pencil factories, where they got raped to death by management.

Re:Once upon a time in America... (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 4 months ago | (#47411979)

yes they did for a VERY VERY BRIEF PERIOD, pre WWII little billy went to the saw mill before school and on weekends to earn the family a couple bucks, your dream like state of euphoria in suburbia only happened for a few decades, every other year recorded in history childeren worked to help support the family.

Re: Once upon a time in America... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412239)

As they should. With low wages and upward mobility to boot!

Yes (1)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about 4 months ago | (#47411499)

What, did you think Google was putting tens of millions into IT education for philanthropic purposes?

Aaaahahahahaha! Hahahahaha!

ahh

sigh

Haaaaaaahahahaha! ...yeah they're planning to strip mine up and coming generations.

Re:Yes (1)

iggymanz (596061) | about 4 months ago | (#47411523)

nothing wrong with that, most the population finds good jobs are very hard to come by. The real unemployment rate in the USA (using system bls used in the 1980s is almost 25%, Depression level. A corporate droid job is better than no job

Re:Yes (1)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about 4 months ago | (#47411651)

Oh get fucked asshole, this isn't about playing fair and providing jobs, its about corporate profits: http://pando.com/2014/03/22/re... [pando.com]

Re:Yes (1)

iggymanz (596061) | about 4 months ago | (#47411827)

Grow up, nothing is fair in this world. Of course employers make a profit if they are to survive. People work for money, the employer makes a profit on their work. that's how making a living works. that's how businesss works.

Re:Yes (1)

creimer (824291) | about 4 months ago | (#47411829)

My last corporate droid job ended with the Fortune 500 CEO giving himself a 66% raise and laid off 10% of the workforce for having a lousy fiscal year. I guess he needed a new yacht more than I needed to pay my more mundane bills. Eight months and 60+ job interviews later, I'm working for the federal government. Oy!

Re:Yes (1)

Nethemas the Great (909900) | about 4 months ago | (#47412025)

Good jobs are available to those that can offer themselves as good employees. You're not owed good job you merit one.

It is amazing what companies will do to not pay (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411581)

It is amazing what companies will do to not pay higher wages. I mean holy fuck.

For IT jobs HS + on the job / trade / tech / CC is (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47411687)

For IT jobs HS + on the job and or with an trade / tech / CC is all that should be needed.

Yep, all you should need (2)

rsilvergun (571051) | about 4 months ago | (#47411807)

but after 20+ years competing head on with cheaper Indian, Malaysian and Chinese tech workers it's more like BS + on the job + maybe a few years working for free at an internship and your dad knows a guy...

Don't like it? Form a Union and get organized or get another line of work.

Re:For IT jobs HS + on the job / trade / tech / CC (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411965)

> For IT jobs HS + on the job and or with an trade / tech / CC is all that should be needed.

If T means technician than yeah. But you're lucky if ever rise above that. Given up a broader education for trade-school level training means you are almost certainly going to unqualified to make design or managerial decisions.

You won't be alone, we see it here on slashdot all the time - posters who deploy sheldon-cooper style logic to avoid acknowledging that the sociopolitical issues that intersect with the technical nature of our industry are both important and complicated.

Re:For IT jobs HS + on the job / trade / tech / CC (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47412021)

Not all tech guys want to be in management and there are people who not cut out for it and end up being peters.

When you cannot poach (2)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 4 months ago | (#47411741)

Well when you cannot poach employees, you need to get to them first.

Meanwhile... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411781)

30-something experienced coder, unix sysadmin, dba, doer-of-whatever-is-necessary... has given up looking for jobs due to excessive rejections.

Something is wrong with the way we're trying to find and select people.

Re:Meanwhile... (1)

Nethemas the Great (909900) | about 4 months ago | (#47412069)

The biggest issue with these 30-somethings isn't what they "used to do" it's what they can do right here, right now. The "kids" get the jobs not because they have lots of experience, but because they cost less to employ making it financially reasonable to train them. Many 30-somethings expect high compensation but never bothered to keep themselves relevant and thus are uneconomic to train by prospective employers.

Oh, yeah? (1)

um.yup. (2892409) | about 4 months ago | (#47411813)

Well, my company is recuiting an army of mutant squirrels! We'll see who wins!

Re:Oh, yeah? (1)

creimer (824291) | about 4 months ago | (#47411847)

Replacing hamsters with mutant squirrels on the server farms?! Oh, my.

I know! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411855)

"Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of naive young workers?"

See: Rhetorical.

"All you should need?" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47411913)

Definitely a bad trend. I have a MSc degree, multiple certifications, project management experience and a proven track record. Yet the last three companies I interviewed with all asked the "illegal" questions - How old are you, are you married, do you have kids. My lawyer said "you can sue them, but you'd better win enough so both of us can retire because a lawsuit like that gets you on the hidden blacklist."

So with the companies hiring high school kids pretty soon the companies will start getting rid of those ancient 26 year olds because they can get cheaper kids who are "up to date" with all the latest social media fads...

On the upside, it's hard to get an H1b visa if you're in high school. Maybe it's an avenue for a few Americans to actually get a job and keep if for a few years. At least until the companies figure out another way to recruit near-slave labor.

Yea, I'm cynical. Two years of looking for work when all I hear is "you're over qualified" and "all we're hiring are entry-level people".

Tech / IT needs an apprenticeship system that (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47411921)

Tech / IT needs an apprenticeship system that can tech real skills, have on the job / hands on learning / and at least some oversight.

I want voters to go to college (3, Insightful)

silvermorph (943906) | about 4 months ago | (#47412095)

I wasn't ecstatic about all the non-major courses I had to take when my primary worry was getting a programming job after I got my degree, and I might have taken an $100K out if it was available. But now 10-15 years later I'm glad I that my formal education included a psychology class, a statistics class, a history class, and others. Maybe I would have picked all that up on my own, or maybe I'd have a giant black hole in my world view.

There's a training side to education and there's a wisdom side to education, and they're both important in the long run. Telling young people to get jobs right out of high school because being well-rounded isn't necessary for "smart" people just means it's going to be a crap shoot as to whether their decisions repeat history or learn from it.

Re:I want voters to go to college (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47412185)

Maybe I would have picked all that up on my own, or maybe I'd have a giant black hole in my world view.

If you relied on college for being well-rounded either you didn't try hard enough in high school or your high school failed you. There's no reason to dilute college degrees due to secondary school failures.

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