The Least They Could Do: Amazon Charges 1 Cent To Meet French Free Shipping Ban 309
Last year, we mentioned that the French government was unhappy with Amazon for offering better prices than the French competition, and strongly limited the amount by which retailers can discount books. Last month, the French parliament also passed a law banning free delivery of books. Ars Technica reports that Amazon has responded with a one-penny shipping rate on the orders that would previously have shipped free. Says the article:
This is by no means the first time France has tried to put a damper on major US tech companies dabbling in books or other reading materials. In 2011, the country updated an old law related to printed books that then allowed publishers to impose set e-book pricing on Apple and others. And in 2012, there was the very public dispute between French lawmakers and Google over the country's desire to see French media outlets paid for having their content pop up in search results. At least for now with this most recent situation, an online giant has found a relatively quick and easy way to regain the upperhand.
Not France vs US (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not at all about the French/US competition, the big French sites like fnac.com are subjected to the same rules of course.
You can think one thing or another about the rules, but they are about the big sites killing off the small local shops.
Re:Not France vs US (Score:4, Insightful)
But then, I haven't been book shopping in France.
Re: (Score:2)
I also know small bookshops. They are either on main railway stations and sell crappy bestsellers or - if they are located elsewhere - they sell more hipster apparel than books nowadays.
Re: (Score:2)
In my town, Karlsruhe, Germany, more than half of the book shops have closed. ... from my mind I can perhaps count 5 still existing book shops. So going 'shopping' is no longer going to happen. ... and it takes 5 or more years till an interesting title is finally translated into german.
Most of the other half got bought buy 'book shop chains' (like Thalia)
On top of that for some dumb reason they put SF and Fantasy into one category 'SF&Fantasy' however I'm not interested in the later
I guess the topic is
Difference between SF and fantasy, or lack thereof (Score:2)
On top of that for some dumb reason they put SF and Fantasy into one category 'SF&Fantasy' however I'm not interested in the later
At the soft end of speculative fiction's Mohs scale [wikia.com], what difference do you see between "SF" and "fantasy"? What's the difference between "ETs" and "elves"?
and it takes 5 or more years till an interesting title is finally translated into german.
Your complaint could be worded that most works of SF literature that you find "interesting" are not published under a license that allows fans to translate it. Whose fault is that?
Re: Not France vs US (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, the problem with this line of thinking is omitting the fact this is largely a technology issue.
Progress will continue regardless of regulation. If the prices for books are relatively high, the negative externality of higher rates of book piracy may occur in the long run. Basic supply price vs demand.
Sure, some people might prefer paper copies but the monetary cost of free often overcomes that aspect.
Re: Not France vs US (Score:5, Informative)
It is not a technology issue. The law that stated a maximum of 5% discount for books goes back to 1981. Decades before Amazon even existed. It was put in place to assure that local bookshops could compete on an equal term to big competitors (like supermarkets selling books etc...). Right now the French government has only clarified that that 5% maximum discount is also to include also the shipping charges. So you can't do 5% discount (allowed by law) on the book + x% discount (shipping).
Now as to the price of books, maybe you don't know but french books cost on average less than american ones. And considering the US is a much larger market, a free market WHAT does that really tell you ? The French have a vibrant cultural market. Especially when it comes to books. They love books, they love reading, and they buy a lot of books. Much more on average than americans. If this law were so bad you would see people stopping buying books but that's not what happens. Ensuring that local bookshops survive is a good thing to everyone.
Imagine a future were only Amazon or Apple can distribute/sell books. It would be a nightmare. Even now when thy don't have much of the market they're brazen in their attemps to censor/blocks books that aren't morally suited to the corporation. You want to publish a young adult books that talks about teen sex, tough luck. Apple doesn't like it so you don't get to publish it. No thanks. Having retail stores that stock and get access to all the back catalog is a good thing for everyone.
French culture protectionism (Score:3, Insightful)
Now as to the price of books, maybe you don't know but french books cost on average less than american ones.
Citation needed.
And considering the US is a much larger market, a free market WHAT does that really tell you ?
It tells me nothing because even if what you claim is true (and you haven't proven that) there is insufficient information to draw conclusions regarding why that might be the case. Could be subsidies, could be exchange rates (the Euro is strong relative to the dollar and a lot of books are published in the US which would make them cheaper in Europe), could be some other structural advantage. No conclusions can be drawn without more information.
The French have a vibrant cultural market.
And yet we see the French constantly having to
Re: (Score:3)
No you wouldn't. What you would see is people buying less books because the books they buy cost more. There is no way to prove one way or the other than such a result is happening.
But there is one absolute fact, that is that books cost more as a result of this law.
This law was enacted to protect small bookstores so that the long tail of customers still had access. Amazon provides that long tail service better than
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Not France vs US (Score:5, Interesting)
Considering how bookshops have been obliterated by Amazon in the US
Borders and Barnes and Noble were obliterated by Amazon. But any book stores that survived Borders/B&N were not affected by Amazon at all. Amazon was late to the "cheap and easy" party, they just did it better than the big chains did, and hurt them most. Any small store that had a near by big store, was better off after Amazon, and the big store closed down again.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Not France vs US (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, and so what?
The underlying assumption behind this kind of move seems to be the belief that small local bookshops are inherently worth protecting. Why is that? It's not like if a bookshop closes the land it occupied is salted with radioactive waste. Something else, possibly something more useful will move in.
The real problem here is not Amazon or books or even Google, it's the French mindset that things should never change, that the old ways are always the best ways. Perhaps France has an unusually elderly set of politicians or voters, but you see this in all its areas, most notoriously agriculture. Old ways of farming were put on a quasi-religious pedestal and vast amounts of EU policy and budget were redirected towards preserving them.
Fetishing bookshops doesn't have any emotional appeal to me - they're just buildings stacked with a small and limited selection of reading materials, which inefficiently deploy land and people. Given the rise of the e-book even large chain bookshops will likely disappear over the coming decades, and who will cry for them?
Perhaps the space the bookshops used up can be replaced by coffee shops - spaces for social interaction and work, where reading an e-book and then meeting a friend and having a nice conversation at ordinary volume is a perfectly acceptable way to spend your time.
Re: (Score:2)
The real problem here is not Amazon or books or even Google, it's the French mindset that things should never change, that the old ways are always the best ways.
I'm NOT saying the French are right here, but sometimes greater efficiency should not be the only goal, and sometimes it doesn't really result in "progress."
Fetishing bookshops doesn't have any emotional appeal to me - they're just buildings stacked with a small and limited selection of reading materials, which inefficiently deploy land and people.
As someone who has lived for a time in Europe (various times in France, Germany, and Italy), I can firmly state that I'd take their small food markets and shops over the U.S. any day, "just buildings stacked with a small and limited selection of food options, which inefficiently deploy land and people" to often local small farms and food productions.
D
Re: (Score:2)
Sure, and you can do that by shopping there.
But Europe went through this process too. In the UK lots of people wailed about how Tesco and other big supermarkets were killing off the small local shops (implicitly assumed to be good). In fact, when pushed, many people would admit that the small local grocers often weren't really t
Re: (Score:2)
Everything that is rare and about to be extinct is worth to be protected.
I for my part don't want to live in a town where the pedestrian areas only consist of coffee shops and fashion shops. If that is emotional appealing for you, oO!
It is not about you. (Score:2, Informative)
The real problem here is not Amazon or books or even Google, it's the French mindset that things should never change,
Fetishing bookshops doesn't have any emotional appeal to me - they're just buildings stacked with a small and limited selection of reading materials, which inefficiently deploy land and people. Given the rise of the e-book even large chain bookshops will likely disappear over the coming decades, and who will cry for them?
The geek as cultural imperialist.
What has no value for me has no value for you.
The French have all kinds of worthwhile ideas on larger matters. This occurred to me recently when I was strolling through my museum-like neighborhood in central Paris, and realized there were --- I kid you not --- seven bookstores within a 10-minute walk of my apartment. Granted, I live in a bookish area. But still: Do the French know something about the book business that we Americans don't?
For a few bucks off and the pleasure of shopping from bed, have we handed over a precious natural resource --- our nation's books --- to an ambitious billionaire with an engineering degree?
France, meanwhile, has just unanimously passed a so-called anti-Amazon law, which says online sellers can't offer free shipping on discounted books. The new measure is part of France's effort to promote "biblio-diversity" and help independent bookstores compete. Here, there's no big bookseller with the power to suddenly turn off the spigot. People in the industry estimate that Amazon has a 10 or 12 percent share of new book sales in France. Amazon reportedly handles 70 percent of the country's online book sales, but just 18 percent of books are sold online.
The French secret is deeply un-American: fixed book prices.
Fixing book prices may sound shocking to Americans, but it's common around the world, for the same reason. In Germany, retailers aren't allowed to discount most books at all. Six of the world's 10 biggest book-selling countries --- Germany, Japan, France, Italy, Spain and South Korea --- have versions of fixed book prices.
What underlies France's book laws isn't just an economic position --- it's also a worldview. Quite simply, the French treat books as special. Some 70 percent of French people said they read at least one book last year; the average among French readers was 15 books. Readers say they trust books far more than any other medium, including newspapers and TV. The French government classifies books as an "essential good," along with electricity, bread and water. A French friend of mine runs a charity, Libraries Without Borders, which brings books to survivors of natural disasters.
The French aren't being pretentious or fetishizing bookstores. They're giving voice to something we know in America, too. "When your computer dies, you throw it away," says Mr. Montagne of the publishers' association. "But you'll remember a book 20 years later. You've deeply entered into a story that's not your own. It's forged who you are. You'll only see later how much it has affected you. You don't keep all books, but it's not a market like others. The contents of a bookcase can define who you are."
The French Do Buy Books. Real Books. [nytimes.com]
Re: (Score:2)
"Workers" can find something else to do, possibly newer and more interesting kinds of work, or possibly less work on a four day week, etc.
Look, humanity is stuck on this rock, we aren't going anywhere unless someone figures out how to do the impossible and fly around the galaxy faster than light. So our society needs an eventual e
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is no one is willing to pay workers 25% more per hour to have them work 4 days a week.
Re: (Score:2)
No? I keep reading about how the economic recovery is creating lots of part time jobs.
http://nationalinterest.org/bl... [nationalinterest.org]
What you're saying is that those jobs don't pay the same as a full time job. No, obviously not, but if the things around people keep getting cheaper then it doesn't matter: they can still end up objectively more wealthy. For instance, let's say 20 years from now everyone buys books cheap via e-readers and nobody has to own a car or parking spot anymore, because all the cars drive themselves
Re: (Score:3)
The price of homes has become wildly disconnected from the cost of land thanks to their use as speculative asset, but even if that were not the case in most places you can build upwards way more than people do. And populations are stabilising or even falling in developed parts of the world. Only immigration keeps it from entering full-on collapse. So if our messed up financial system gets fixed and people stop using houses as piggy banks I see no reason why the cost of homes must go up forever.
Re: (Score:2)
Most book shops can order any book over night, max in 2 days. Sometimes if you come early in the morning they even get it at the same day.
Re: (Score:2)
And that's better than ordering it online, how?
Doesn't have to be from Amazon, could be from a small online book store.
Re: (Score:3)
Fuck you and your aspie world.
What he said has fuck all to do with being (or not being) aspie.
Incidentally, your post breaks UK law - stop fucking discriminating against a learning disability you cunt.
Subsidizing small bookstores (Score:2)
Whereas even small towns in France are packed with bookshops.
Of course they are. They are being subsidized by price floors. They don't have to compete on price or provide a better experience that people are willing to pay for. Price floors subsidize middlemen who otherwise would have no reason or ability to exist. If these bookstores are competing on price then consumers are getting screwed by paying more than they should. If the small bookstores are providing an experience beyond the book that people are willing to pay for then the price supports are unnecessar
Re: (Score:2)
I can get wanting to protect something, but legally blocking something is just clinging to the past. I'll bet there used to be dozens of small buggy whip makers throughout France; too bad for them. It wasn't big business that killed them, it was technological progress. Now, if the people want to preserve the small shops, that's fine, they should shop at the small local shops. I sure do. I don't want to see video stores go extinct due to Netflix so I shop at mine, and I don't want to see book stores go
Re:Not France vs US (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not at all about the French/US competition, the big French sites like fnac.com are subjected to the same rules of course.
You can think one thing or another about the rules, but they are about the big sites killing off the small local shops.
Yes, the rest of the world had this argument 20yrs ago when Walmart killed off most of them here.
The consensus? Fuck the local shops. What good did they ever do us? Unlike most, I remember those shops. I remember the 70yr old owner busy chatting with his friends out front and not giving a shit if I could find what I needed because he was the only game in town. I remember paying $5 for a bolt. I vividly remember when I bought my first guitar, prior to the internet even existing and believing the store owner that $800 was a fair deal (it wasn't, it was a $200 guitar) and after he signed me up for a loan that would likely be illegal today, he asked "Oh... would you like a case with that?" $200 for the case. I paid over $1000 for the guitar, got signed up for a 30% interest rate and it was a balloon payment (go look up how awful that is) I was basically bankrupt all the way through college because of that guy.
Fuck the local shops. Competition is good. There are still local shops around here, but now they focus on carrying unique hard to find things and customer service. You can't walk in without them jumping up to help you. The products they do carry are things you need "NOW" and can't wait for shipping on. Or things that would be silly to ship. The local shops that weren't total ass-hats survived, the ones that weren't got what they deserved.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Not France vs US (Score:5, Insightful)
Well that's how the cookie crumbles with any market. Sure, some good balance of regulation is good but competition is also good for the consumer. And France is probably on the side of over regulation while the US is often under regulated (sans the broken patent system, for example).
Yes, competition is good for the consumer, which is why France wants to protect competition in the marketplace. Monolithic pile-em-high, sell-em-cheap outlets lead to monopolies. Amazon is increasingly dominant in more and more markets, and getting damned-near monopolistic.
The original fears in France weren't only about the loss of small shops, but also about the result loss of variety in the publishing sector (the supermarkets only stock a small selection of the most popular literature, much of which is pulp and/or translations). Amazon certainly doesn't pose a threat to variety of material, but the monopoly is still worrying. What France recognises is that employment makes the monetary system go round. Fewer jobs in your town means less money in your town, means less spending, means fewer shops, means fewer jobs, means...
Re: (Score:3)
Amazon certainly doesn't pose a threat to variety of material
Sure they do - they try some pretty hard negotiation tactics with the publishers which sometimes results in books from certain publishers being withdrawn from Amazon. If Amazon is pretty much the only place you can get books then this is going to threaten the variety of material available to the general public.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If publishers want to compete with piracy, they need to make it more convenient for people to get the books they want, at the price they want.
I don't think there's a lot of risk of piracy of paper books. eBooks are another matter, but they are one thing I wouldn't touch because of the DRM (yes, I know you can trivially remove the DRM, but if I'm going to have to break the law to use something I purchased I start questioning why I didn't just break the law instead of purchasing it in the first place).
Re: (Score:3)
They looked over the channel and saw what has happened in the UK. Most places are what we call "clone towns", which all have exactly the same set of chain shops. There are very few independents left in most places. Choice is non-existent, as even where there are multiple chains they both tend to carry the same products and only differentiate (slightly) on price.
Re: (Score:3)
The UK high street shops are not all the same chain they are all the same charities. The reason for that is down to local council policies, not online competition.
They put high street business rates up to unsustainable levels, and shops go bust.
Then they get less money from business rates so they put them up again so more shops go bust.
Then charity shops move in - because, guess what, they don't pay business rates.
Then the council gets less money from rates so they up the parking charges and remove free pa
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, competition is good for the consumer, which is why France wants to protect competition in the marketplace.
But that's not what they're doing. They're trying to suppress the competition. The competition is online, which is more efficient than having many unrelated bookstores. France wants to pretend to live in the past, while using modern technology against its people. French SWAT members (well, the equivalent) wear masks so they cannot be recognized. Yeah, it's a democracy. Right.
Re: (Score:2)
I supose automobile drivers should be required to carry a buggy whip else the whip manufactureres will have to lay people off
Price floors subsidize middlemen, not competition (Score:2)
Yes, competition is good for the consumer, which is why France wants to protect competition in the marketplace
Price floors do not protect competition. They prevent competition. Price floors are a subsidy to inefficient businesses. They make it impossible to compete on price and do so at the expense of the end consumer. Price supports subsidize unnecessary and inefficient middlemen.
Re: Not France vs US (Score:4, Insightful)
Or move their operation outside of France and ship from there to side step regulation. I'm no advocate of big biz but the law makers in France seem to be too protectionist (see: good regulatory balance).
Trying not to "piss off the law makers" simply caters to their silly protectionist rackets that are doomed to fail business and consumers in the long run.
Re: Not France vs US (Score:2)
This is already what Amazon is doing to circumvent French regulations that prevent websites from storing credit card information.
They're still subject to other laws though.
Re: (Score:2)
France does not prohibit websites from storing credit card information. The regulations say that the merchant must first ask the customer whether they agree to let them store their CC information. If the customer agrees, the customer name, CC number and expiry date can be stored in an encrypted format. What cannot be stored is the CVV number.
This is a common-sense rule that minimizes the risks of identity theft and fraudulent use of credit cards in case customer information gets in the wild, as has happened
Re: (Score:2)
Except, that's not what happens.
The first laws passed by the First United States Congress after the ratification of the constitution were tariffs. People have a right to protect their homes. "free markets" are a scam for redistribution of wealth upward.
Re: (Score:3)
The first laws passed by the First United States Congress after the ratification of the constitution were tariffs.
There were extreme situations extant at the time necessitating a tariff. And by extreme situations; I don't mean fiscal irresponsibility. I mean: there was no such thing as an income tax; the new government needed a bit of money to get on its feet, and the tarrifs were low and not a significant barrier.
Tariffs on international trade in order to fund the new government, largely the tariff w
Re: (Score:3)
If Google wants tot do business in France they should obey the laws of France, not frustrate the lawmakers. That is just not professional.
They are obeying the law. They're charging for shipping just as the unprofessional law in question requires them to do.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe not. The law says they need to charge shipping costs, so unless their couriers are charging them â0.01 they are probably not complying. They are just hoping that it takes the authorities a long time to get around to forcing them to charge the real price, which will be obfuscated as much as possible, by which time the will have forced even more of the competition out of business.
Re: (Score:2)
Then they'll negotiate a discounted rate with the couriers by paying an annual fee.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: Not France vs US (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, the law says no such thing. Before this new law, booksellers in France could sell a book with at most a 5% discount relative to the mandatory price set by the publisher. The idea was to prevent supermarkets and larger booksellers from competing on price and driving smaller shops out of business. In the 1980s, it made some sense, as people were afraid that supermarkets would only stock bestsellers and that smaller shops were necessary to ensure the availability of more specialized, less popular books. Back then, the only people shipping books were mail-order book clubs, which re-published bestsellers after a year or two and did not have much market share.
With the advent of the internet, booksellers started complaining that Amazon and FNAC were too successful. Since they could offer both the 5% discount and free shipping, customers paid as little as it was legally possible and enjoyed the extra convenience of not having to visit several bookshops to find the rare book that they'd been looking for. This is definitely a good thing for consumers and Amazon takes care of the long tail much more effectively and efficiently than smaller booksellers. Plus everyone was treated equally: smaller shops could also offer free shipping if they wanted to: they just could not afford it due to the lower volumes involved. Amazon can negotiate very good shipping rates and buy books much cheaper. Publishers sell them their books with a 50% discount, versus 30-40% for smaller bookstores.
The law now says that you can still offer a 5% discount BUT, if you ship the book to the customer, this 5% discount must be deducted from the shipping fees, which cannot amount to zero. Thus, if Amazon sells a €10 book, they probably charge a €0.51 shipping fee, which ends up being €0.01 after the 5% discount. They're still at a disadvantage since a physical store can sell the same book for €9.5. Which means that the law now clearly favors physical stores, much more than it did small bookstores vs supermarkets before.
Price floors are subsidies (Score:2)
The idea was to prevent supermarkets and larger booksellers from competing on price and driving smaller shops out of business.
Which is in effect a subsidy to small inefficient book shops paid for by customers. It's a bit of a mystery here how the end customer is benefiting from this. I enjoy small local book shops as much as anyone here but in the cold light of day they are businesses just like Amazon and if they aren't providing enough extra value to customers to attract their business then they should go out of business just like any other inefficient business. A bookstore is a middleman between the author and the reader and
Re:Price floors are subsidies (Score:4, Insightful)
Amazon's bread and butter is the long tail. I'd be willing to bet more than 1/4 of their revenue is used, older and out of print books. You can buy nearly every ISBN in existence on Amazon.
Everything you claim about Small Bookstores serving the long tail better than Amazon is bullshit.
This is a French jobs protection program, nothing more. In the long run I would be willing to bet it harms more jobs than it protects. Just like most of the French jobs programs where everyone in France pays more for everything to protect jobs.
Re: (Score:3)
Actually I'd argue it is the government's job to protect cultural value; that's precisely why they fund libraries and museums. They just shouldn't be doing it by forcing Amazon to charge shipping.
Re: (Score:2)
You know it adfvances your argument a lot more if you know what companies are involved.
Re: (Score:2)
And when you do business in china that includes censoring all information the communist party doesn't want shown and giving access to the email accounts of political enemies.
Sorry, you have to keep your own conscience with these things.
When the politicians decide to be absurd you do what you can to frustrate their stupidity... and absent that, shut down operations and embarrass the politicians by creating a market vacuum.
Screw france and any other country that thinks they have a right to control how markets
Re: Not France vs US (Score:4, Interesting)
Screw france and any other country that thinks they have a right to control how markets operate.
How about screw companies that want to do business in a local area without following local laws?
Does your same logic apply to columbians who want to sell crack in the US? That is just the good all free market too isn't it?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
As to Colombians... sure.
If consenting adults want to buy crack and smoke it then why should I try to stop them? Why is that in the interest of society or myself?
You're likely going to say its dangerous or harmful. Well, lots of things are dangerous or harmful. Some sports for example cause damage to the body and there are fatalities in those sports... should we out law them? And what about suicide itself... That is, putting a shotgun in your mouth and pulling the trigger... want to make that illegal?
You ob
Re: (Score:3)
Wrong. An imperialist would think that he has the right to impose rules through his nation.
Instead, I am saying that NO country has a right to control the market.
And anyone that tries simply creates an imbalance that creates black markets or inspires people to create loopholes or complicated ways of doing things that confuses the morons trying to regulate the system into thinking you're not doing the thing they passed laws to keep you from doing.
What France is trying to do is save brick and mortar retail.
It
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If you don't want French money you're not obliged to take it.
If you do want French money then you obey French law.
If you think that Amazon are stupid enough to ignore the 9th largest economy in the world just because of some idiotic pseudo-religous worry about "free markets" I've got a bookshop to sell you.
So instead of "free" why don't they say "covered"? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Marketing: because "free" and "new" are the two strongest advertising buzz words that drive sales. It doesn't matter that it truly isn't free, rather buried in the cost of the item, consumers are attracted to products that include "free" or "new" somewhere and are more likely to buy.
This is also why "new version" or "new features" or "new colors" or "new enhnacements" are often pitched despite the product being the same old thing with the same old functionality with the same old annoyances.
Re: (Score:3)
How so?
I mean building costs into pricing models has been around for quite a long time. Shipping is just one of those costs and costs come off the ledger for profit statements and tax purposes.
The US Postal Service has a flat rate box where if it fits, it ships anywhere for something lik
Re: (Score:2)
Nonsense. By that argument, when you go into a shop and buy a shirt, you should pay for the shop assistant's time separately, and rental on the space you occupy in the shop separately, and fees for processing your credit card separately.
Re: (Score:2)
In the US if you use a bar or cafe or reasturant you ARE expected to pay the waiting staff separately from the cost of the product you purchase (Tip). In many other countries a tip is for good service (above and beyond). Not part of the staff wages.
Re: (Score:2)
How do you know the shop assistant is an employee? Maybe they contract them in from a body shop? It's none of your business where they get their labour from.
Re: (Score:2)
No, I'm saying that the cost of shipping cannot be accounted for as an integral part of the product price, rather it must be accounted for separately. If it is nevertheless accounted for as part of the price, then Amazon would be doing a bunch of illegal things.
Re: (Score:2)
No, I'm saying that the cost of shipping cannot be accounted for as an integral part of the product price, rather it must be accounted for separately. If it is nevertheless accounted for as part of the price, then Amazon would be doing a bunch of illegal things.
How you charge for it and how you account for the cost of shipping are two separate items. As long as the accounting makes clear that it is an expense related to sales volume and thus scales with sales I think you have accounted for that expense in a proper manner. You can price a product so that shipping costs are included, even if the exact cost may be more or less for that particular item; the goal is to ensure the variations even out so you maintain desired margins. It's no different than the shopkeeper
Why the assumption.... (Score:5, Insightful)
At least for now with this most recent situation, an online giant has found a relatively quick and easy way to regain the upperhand.
Why the assumption that it is good for for-profit companies to find loopholes and avoid the will of democratically elected governments. The French government has made a decision that will have repercussions. If this is followed, books will be more expensive in France, but they wont lose the independent small bookstalls in town high streets that so many other countries will have. It may also inhibit the ability of online companies to start in France. But, guess what, the people can decide. They can lobby for it to be an election issue, ask their representatives which way they vote, etc. If they don't like the law they can get it changed.
Why is it assumed to be better for a private company with a board who the French people ave no influence upon circumvent this decision?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Stop being so naive. It's not "the French people" vs a "private company". This whole thing is about wealthy and powerful European publishers trying to rid themselves of competition that's threatening to erode their profits and their power, and local bookstores are a pawn in that issue.
As for the French people, if the majority wanted to shop at local bookstores, the issue would be moot, because local bookstores wouldn't be going out of businesses. Of course, even if the majority had that preference, it still
Re: (Score:2)
It seems oddly contradictory to a capitalist society that you would legislate specifically to keep prices high. And it seems odd that people would want their elected representatives to do so. After all, if most people want the corner book shop to exist, even though it keeps prices high, they are entitled to vote with their wallet. I mean, what's next, airliners are banned because the SS France will be put out of business?
Re: (Score:2)
It seems oddly contradictory to a capitalist society that you would legislate specifically to keep prices high. And it seems odd that people would want their elected representatives to do so. After all, if most people want the corner book shop to exist, even though it keeps prices high, they are entitled to vote with their wallet. I mean, what's next, airliners are banned because the SS France will be put out of business?
It's not that odd or unusual. Many areas of the US have liquor laws that require purchase through a distributor and some even set minimum pricing, all of which protectors the entrenched interests and is why the fight tooth and nail against mail order alcohol sales.
Re: (Score:2)
In your country I can not even order a car from the manufactor. I have to go to a local shop to buy it there.
And you are concerned about a remote country in europe that prefers to buy books in a shop instead of mail ordering them from a multi national corporation?
Wow ...
Re: (Score:2)
books will be more expensive in France, but ...
And let all the poor people be damned, yes? Well, at least they will have some outdated business kept around where they can browse books they can't afford. Let them read library books!
Re: (Score:3)
Democratically elected does not equal democratic.
The most democratic place I know of is Switzerland, where there is an absolutely constant stream of referendums on absolutely everything, mostly things that in other countries would be all be lumped under an umbrella vote for left or right. For example the Swiss recently voted on the question of whether to buy new Gripen figh
Re: (Score:2)
Voting with the wallet is a pipe dream.
It never happened and never will.
It is far to easy to sit at a saturday night at your PC and order something which might be at monday morning in your post box than staying up early at monday and go to the shop.
Re: (Score:2)
"But, guess what, the people can decide."
Guess what, the people have already decided: it's called capitalism. It's the French government that's standing in the way, by decreeing (essentially) that books are only for the wealthy.
Re: (Score:2)
If the French people want the small booksellers etc. they can simply choose now not to go to amazon. Amazon offering cheap shipping isn't forcing anyone to use it.
It comes down to whether you want to make a considered decision on something or rely on the populace's impulse purchases to determine the direction your country moves in.
What's the point? (Score:2)
I really don't see how making books more expensive than they need to be by adopting policies that support physical bookstores helps anybody. Shouldn't the goal be to make reading and culture as affordable as possible and meet the needs of buyers, instead of imposing particular delivery methods?
Re: (Score:2)
This has nothing to do with literacy, and everything to do with protecting businesses from external (i.e. foreign) competition.
In some countries, physical books enjoy a discount on VAT as they are basically encouraged to improve literacy. But ebooks, for some reason, don't.
It's the same thing - protecting an industry. You think anybody but Disney actually benefits from Disney being allowed to own copyrights on its work for ludicrous amounts of time?
It's lobbying, and politics, and being seen to protect so
the problem is small independent book stores fail (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
In the world of the internet, no matter how many rules or laws you pass, only one player will ever be able to compete on price. Even if you banned online sales altogether, someone could find the cheapest physical store (the only difference is that then it would be limited by location/distance, allowing a few more players...but thats as far as you can go).
If I want a specific product, I know what I want precisely, then of course the only thing that matters is how cheap and how fast i can get it, and there's
It's not just France (Score:3)
Only as a side note, the German speaking countries have also a system where books are not allowed to be sold below the price set by the publisher. Nothing new here.
Things are simple... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Similarly, bailing out one of the worst-performing car manufacturers in the world is not a good idea, no matter how big they are. Turns out there were
Re: (Score:2)
The ones that actually provide value to the customer will stay due to people actually visiting them.
Unfortunately, they will not. Too many people will use the cozy atmosphere and the good service to make their selection, and then order it online because it costs a dollar less.
Yes, poor buggy whip makers will be out of jobs in the short term, but we can't all be riding carriages into the future...
Except that Amazon has not invented the car. The buggy whip makers are not going to be out of jobs, they are going to be replaced by minimum-wage buggy whip warehouse slaves.
Showas again that lawmakers are utterly stupid... (Score:2)
If they could not imagine this really simple countermeasure, they cannot have even a tiny bit of effective intelligence. Makes on wonder about the quality of all these other laws and not only in France.
Free shipping on $3 order (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Where it gets crazy, is when you get amazon prime on a full sized safe. Free shipping on something that weights 1-2 TONS.
Yeah...
Probably because of French entitlements (Score:2)
People in France work fewer hours than their US counterparts. France has mandated a 35 hour work week for their full time employees. The US averages 42 hours for full time work (will probably go down after Obamacare is implemented) and often full time salaried employees have an average of 45-55 hours a week. France also requires a minimum of 5 weeks vacation.
Gee, I wonder why their products are more expensive than the US...
Euros (Score:2)
We don't have pennies in Europe. Just eurocents.
Re: (Score:3)
Shipping is free. Or now one cent.
Re:What's the difference (Score:4, Insightful)
Shipping is optional? I wasn't aware Amazon permitted the option of driving to their warehouse to pick items up.
Re: (Score:2)
Are we talking free as in beer or free as in speech? Or are we talking a new "free"? "Free as in consumer choice"
Re: (Score:2)
Microsoft takes advantage of network effects, Windows is more useful if lots of other people have Windows, because if lots of other people have Windows, most of the available software will be for Windows, so you'll need to buy Windows in order to be able to use it. Books don't work that way.
Re:Free Shipping (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
France is really TWO countries. Firstly there is the greater France and then there is Paris and its environs.
The equivalent would be to separate the greater US and what goes on inside the Beltway. The two are totally divorced from each other (and reality)
Many French People in rural France loathe the Parisiennes. When a car with a Paris Department number plate comes to my Village the locals suddenly become sullen and un-coopoerative towards the visitors. When the car leaves, life returns to normal. Even to
Re: (Score:2)
Many French People in rural France loathe the Parisiennes. When a car with a Paris Department number plate comes to my Village the locals suddenly become sullen and un-coopoerative towards the visitors. When the car leaves, life returns to normal. Even to a 'Les Rostbiff' like me they are far friendlier that they are to anyone from Paris.
The same is true in reverse too. I picked up quite a thick rural Normandy accent[1] when I speak French and discovered that everyone in Paris is a lot more polite to me if I speak French with an English accent...
[1] Cultural equivalents: For brits, think Devonshire farmer, for americans think deep south.
Re: (Score:3)
if amazon and others giants really paid their taxes in the countries where they do business, this law does not exist.
Bullshit. First to last.
The idea that protectionist laws favoring home-grown business over large, well organize foreign ventures with low overhead if only they were bribed with even more taxes?
Naive at best. Idiotic in reality.
Re: Paid taxes (Score:2)
In that case, France would charge an import tax.
But what really happens is the book is printed in Germany, sold to Amazon in Luxembourg, sold to someone in France, and all the profit funneled through Netherlands and/or Ireland, where is somehow becomes no profit and hence no tax due.
Re: (Score:2)
I've seen this argument on many French websites, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around it.
Before the law:
- €10 book on Amazon: €9.5 (+free shipping)
- €10 book in a bookstore: €9.5 (+ no need to ship it, though the store is free to offer it)
After the law:
- €10 book on Amazon: €10.01
- €10 book in a bookstore: €9.5
Clearly, this tilts the balance in favor of bookstores who can now sell books cheaper than Amazon. They didn't just fix the law, which already ensured