Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Russia Prepares For Internet War Over Malaysian Jet

samzenpus posted about 3 months ago | from the it's-going-to-be-a-long-night dept.

The Military 503

An anonymous reader writes The investigation of a Malaysian passenger jet shot down over Ukrainian rebel held territory is heating up. U.S. and U.K. news organizations are studiously trying to spread the blame, Russian ITAR, which, just earlier today was celebrating the downing of a large aircraft by rebel missiles in Torez (Google cache) is reporting that the rebels do not have access to the missiles needed for such attacks. The rebel commander who earlier today reported the downing of the aircraft has also issued a correction to earlier reports that they had captured BUK air defense systems with Russian sources now stating that the rebels do not posses such air defenses. The Ukrainian president has been attempting to frame the incident as a "terrorist attack". President Obama made contact with Vladimir Putin and has been instead treating it as an accident, calling it a "terrible tragedy" and saying that the priority is investigating whether U.S. citizens were involved. With control of the black box and its own internet propaganda army Russia may be in a good position to win the propaganda war.

cancel ×

503 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

not funny (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481447)

auto-win for internet war = release the hounds!
*because the internet is full of cats* /endbadhumor

Black box data streaming (5, Insightful)

justcauseisjustthat (1150803) | about 3 months ago | (#47481449)

Why haven't all airplanes been upgraded so the black box data is streamed to satellites/ground stations? It's so dumb to have to search for a airplane to find the data, that should be the fallback plan. Hey FAA, you listening?

Re:Black box data streaming (5, Interesting)

acoustix (123925) | about 3 months ago | (#47481497)

My guess is cost. Sending data via satellite is very expensive, and there's a lot of data recorded. As for ground stations, I'm not aware of any plane-to-ground data communications currently in use (other than radio for voice) so that would need a completely new infrastructure built.

Re:Black box data streaming (5, Interesting)

justcauseisjustthat (1150803) | about 3 months ago | (#47481511)

So we can put Wifi internet on airplanes, but not a virtual black box?

Re:Black box data streaming (3, Insightful)

acoustix (123925) | about 3 months ago | (#47481565)

That's a good point, but its a small percentage of flights that have Internet access. Even in the US.

Re:Black box data streaming (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481605)

That's a good point, but its a small percentage of flights that have Internet access. Even in the US.

The US is not always the best indication of what is possible or reasonable (or sane) in regards to mass transportation.

Re:Black box data streaming (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481625)

You ever used that internet? It's not very good.

And you want to put all that data out in the open, as the plane is flying?

Re:Black box data streaming (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481803)

My guess is cost. Sending data via satellite is very expensive, and there's a lot of data recorded. As for ground stations, I'm not aware of any plane-to-ground data communications currently in use (other than radio for voice) so that would need a completely new infrastructure built.

Nope. Sorry to interrupt your speculation, but the reality is that there is technology available for that. It's been used in corporate private aviation etc. many decades already. It costs some money, it will cost something to install and operate, but it's not too expensive any more. The reasons why it isn't been used in commercial airliners is mainly it's just not been a requirement to install, there have not been accidents which would had it made a requirement and because airline operators are business trying to make money they avoid any extra costs they can.

There is a very good summary of the state of this in Science Friday May 30, 2014 story [sciencefriday.com] following previous Malesian Airlines plane case.

ac

Re:Black box data streaming (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 3 months ago | (#47481503)

Its the decades of “tombstone technology” when there are enough tombstones the cash will the found to stream data to satellites/ground stations.
Until then you hope to get to the data as stored in time. Not too toasty for too long or down too deep.
(tombstone technology may relate to a DC-10 that crashed outside Paris, France in 1974, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T... [wikipedia.org] )

Re:Black box data streaming (2, Insightful)

FireFury03 (653718) | about 3 months ago | (#47481547)

Why haven't all airplanes been upgraded so the black box data is streamed to satellites/ground stations? It's so dumb to have to search for a airplane to find the data, that should be the fallback plan. Hey FAA, you listening?

Because there's probably way too much data for that to be a reasonable idea. Have you any idea how many planes there are flying at once?

Re:Black box data streaming (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481601)

Because it takes 5000 years to certify a new piece of aviation equipment for use on board a passenger aircraft.

Re:Black box data streaming (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481815)

There's no reason to exaggerate, 5000 years is way too fast for something to get certified.

Re:Black box data streaming (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481655)

Not sure what jurisdiction the FAA has over a foreign aircraft operating from and over foreign territory.

Re:Black box data streaming (2, Insightful)

dfn5 (524972) | about 3 months ago | (#47481775)

Because the pilot union doesn't want that data to be available for anyone to look at outside of an accident situation. Consider if your car had a black box, which it should. But in addition to collecting the data was transmitting that information continuously to the government for them to peruse any time they wanted. One already gets speeding tickets automatically when your fast lane toll pass records you traveling between toll plazas faster than you should be. Imagine if that was all the time.

Re:Black box data streaming (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481925)

Consider if your car had a black box, which it should.

It does. It's called an EDR. At least, a lot of cars do have it.

Re:Black box data streaming (2)

c (8461) | about 3 months ago | (#47481781)

Why haven't all airplanes been upgraded so the black box data is streamed to satellites/ground stations?

In general, I don't entirely disagree. In this case... I'm not sure how useful the black box would be in the event of a missile strike. I wasn't aware the civilian aircraft had the kind of gear to track a missile, or that the kinds of collision sensors they have would be fast enough to catch it. It's definitely not going to be able to tell who shot the missile or where it came from. Heck, I'd be surprised if the black box could tell the difference betwen a missile strike and a large suitcase bomb in the cargo hold. So unless it actually was an mechanical or aircrew failure (and I highly doubt it), I think the black box is a red herring.

Re:Black box data streaming (1)

wired_parrot (768394) | about 3 months ago | (#47481897)

Black box data wouldn't help in this case. The data from the black box would likely only show you a perfectly normal flight up to the second in which the missile hit. There's enough evidence to show that it was a missile strike, and the question now is who fired it. That evidence may be found in the debris of the missile that hit the aircraft, and in pinpointing the origin of the missile fire. The flight data recorder may provide supporting evidence that it was a missile strike, but it won't tell you who pulled the trigger.

meanwhile overnight... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481451)

meanwhile overnight it's been reported by the telegraph.co.uk that a mobile launcher was seen headed back toward the russian border with two of it's four missiles missing, short video clip provided of one on the move at the website.

Re:meanwhile overnight... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 3 months ago | (#47481631)

meanwhile overnight it's been reported by the telegraph.co.uk that a mobile launcher was seen headed back toward the russian border with two of it's four missiles missing, short video clip provided of one on the move at the website.

I can't find your reference. Please provide a link.

Re:meanwhile overnight... (5, Informative)

OzPeter (195038) | about 3 months ago | (#47481715)

Here is the story Malaysia Airlines plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live [telegraph.co.uk]

The video is referenced as

12.20 Tom Parfitt has picked up an intriguing Russian-language detail.
Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, has made the latest of a series of claims that a Buk missile launcher allegedly used by pro-Russian rebels to knock down Flight MH17 was smuggled away into Russia overnight. He highlights a video which purportedly shows the launcher with two of its missiles missing, writing "it's not hard to guess why".
“It was exactly these missiles which brought death to almost 300 innocent passengers of the ill-fated Malaysian Boeing,” he added.
Mr Gerashchenko says the video was made by Ukrainian intelligence agents at 4.50am as the launcher was on the move towards the Russian border near the town of Krasnodon.
We obviously can't confirm it's authenticity.

The video is found here Buk launcher video [youtube.com]

Re:meanwhile overnight... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481717)

You have to scroll down to 12:20
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

You can also find the video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0

Re: meanwhile overnight... (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481671)

There is video of the Buk system crossing the border from Russia with 4 rockets two days ago and crossing back into Russia this morning with one missing. These rockets are large and wouldn't just go missing. The rebels are correct, they don't have these weapons, the Russians do and it looks like they let the rebels borrow one.

Video URL (2)

cmholm (69081) | about 3 months ago | (#47481713)

The Telegraph screwed up the link within their site. Google turned it back up: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new... [telegraph.co.uk]

Re:meanwhile overnight... (3, Interesting)

Joe Gillian (3683399) | about 3 months ago | (#47481751)

The question is, was this really a launcher that the Russians gave the rebels? I looked up the Wikipedia page for the BUK missile system last night, and there was a link on that article to a report from Jane's that said Ukraine had some in their possession from their days as a Soviet satellite state. It makes me wonder if the BUK (being a Soviet-era weapons system dating back to 1979) wasn't just misplaced somewhere - if the National Institutes of Health can misplace 300 vials of deadly diseases and biological weapons, it's not a stretch to think that the Ukrainian military might've had a BUK somewhere and forgotten about it.

To me, this almost sounds like the Twitter messages from the rebels claiming that they captured a BUK were correct - the Russians didn't directly lend the rebels a BUK, but they're helping them cover it up after the fact in order to stop any news coming out that goes against their message of the rebels being poor, oppressed ethnic Russians who need protection from their "home country".

Re:meanwhile overnight... (2)

OzPeter (195038) | about 3 months ago | (#47481853)

To me, this almost sounds like the Twitter messages from the rebels claiming that they captured a BUK were correct - the Russians didn't directly lend the rebels a BUK, but they're helping them cover it up after the fact in order to stop any news coming out that goes against their message of the rebels being poor, oppressed ethnic Russians who need protection from their "home country".

What sort of "rebels" would have the training an ability to set up and operate a crew served weapon? I severely doubt that such a system is "point and shoot" as it has 3 separate, independent mobile systems.

Re:meanwhile overnight... (1)

ihtoit (3393327) | about 3 months ago | (#47481889)

according to RT, the Ukrainian military themselves have at least 27 Gadfly launch systems, which equates to just over a hundred missiles. It's likely that whatever fired the missile (if it is confirmed) was at some point in the hands of the legitimate Ukrainian Government, and COULD ONLY HAVE COME ORIGINALLY FROM ITS MANUFACTURING BASE IN RUSSIA.

Re:meanwhile overnight... (5, Informative)

invid (163714) | about 3 months ago | (#47481901)

The only way the Russian's can "win" this propaganda war is if they can somehow convince those Europeans who make decisions about sanctions that they had nothing to do with the downing of the passenger jet. People will want to know where that Buk missile launcher came from, who gave the order to shoot, and where that missile launcher is now. If there is any evidence that the Russians had any direct involvement with this, no amount of propaganda will help them outside of the regions where they have complete control of the media.

If only... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481453)

If only Putin had been born with a bigger dick, all this might have been avoided.

Re:If only... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481599)

It's not his dick size, it's that he can't psychologically accept that he is homosexual. Therefore he's obsessed with appearing as masculine as possible. (With the hilarious side-effect that he spends more time in homoerotic shirtless man-wrestling than he would if he was straight or out-gay. And the less hilarious side-effect of, you know... Russia.)

Re:If only... (5, Interesting)

Rei (128717) | about 3 months ago | (#47481739)

Oh come on now, how could anyone mistake this guy for being gay? [dailynews.lk]

Seriously, though, some of his publicity stunts are almost Kim Jong-* level. While the "flying with geese to lead them home" one was funny, and the saving his camera crew from a savage tiger one was conveniently off camera, my favorite has to be the "finding ancient Greek pottery while diving in two meters of clear water on a popular beach" one. ;) Of course that one was so over the top even for him that they had to backtrack [dailymail.co.uk] :

But his spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in an interview shown Tuesday on the Dozhd TV channel that the jugs had been found earlier by archaeologists and placed there for Mr Putin. ... 'Of course, they were left there or placed there. It's completely normal. There's no reason to gloat about this and everything else.'

Mr Putin is noted for his habit of appearing in vigorous and adventurous settings, including fishing and hunting while stripped to the waist and riding with leather-clad bikers.

Again, though, let me stress - not gay! ;)

It is the fault of.. (2, Insightful)

EasyTarget (43516) | about 3 months ago | (#47481471)

.. Nationalism: the single biggest source of evil on this planet.

Re:It is the fault of.. (2)

jbmartin6 (1232050) | about 3 months ago | (#47481495)

Not really. Look at the vicious atrocities of the Mongols. They were hardly what we would call nationalistic. Sadly, it is human nature that devalues the Other and makes it possible to rationalize anything.

Re:It is the fault of.. (1)

EasyTarget (43516) | about 3 months ago | (#47481627)

Yeah, my bad. You are on the money there; I should really have said: .. Nationalism: currently the single biggest excuse for evil on this planet.

Re:It is the fault of.. (2)

Bengie (1121981) | about 3 months ago | (#47481795)

Only a few hundred years ago it was religion. Flavor of the century. Ass holes will always be assholes, they just use whatever is the current popular tool to accomplish their misdeeds.

Re:It is the fault of.. (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481553)

I dont know about that. Nationalism is a good one, but you dont have jebus on your side after death. I think religion might surpass nationalism by about the infinite amount of time in the afterlife. People say hitler was simply a nationalist, and not a christian but an atheist. Perhaps. His hate of jews is certainly agreed with by new testament scripture, by medieval christian doctrine and scholars, and the people actually running the gas chambers and camps simply had to look to their good christian faith by scripture and doctrine to turn the knobs and bulldoze the deicidal jews. hitler was a total maniac, but he had christianity on his side to fire up a furor against the jews, and blacks and atheists, and homosexuals (omg, the bible describes how all of those things are gross. if you dont believe me on the black part, see: curse of ham. and yeah, could be a wrong interpretation, but many christians took it seriously for long enough to make the african slave trade be totally cool)

Re:It is the fault of.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481573)

LOL. Fire up a furor. He fired up into the fuhrer

Re:It is the fault of.. (1)

EasyTarget (43516) | about 3 months ago | (#47481643)

Religion and Nationalism are just flip sides of the same coin.

Neither is evil per-say; in fact both can be quite admirable; but they enable evil.

Re:It is the fault of.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481697)

Religion and Nationalism are just flip sides of the same coin.

Neither is evil per-say; in fact both can be quite admirable; but they enable evil.

I used to believe that too, but I've found that's really just another excuse to not look deeper inward into our intrinsic human greed, corruption, and lust for power. At most, religion and nationalism really just helps you sleep a little better at night. They're not the cause nor the enabler. If you somehow were able to banish those two elements from the universe you'd still be left with the same world but different headlines.

Re:It is the fault of.. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481691)

I'm willing to bet you everything I own, literally, that if you count up death count between the two, religion doesn't win.

But hey, why let facts that all the atrocities of WWI, WWII and everything Stalin did plus a bunch of those other dictators i the name of the state get in the way of your dislike for religion.

Re:It is the fault of.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481575)

Don't confuse nationalism for ideology. Support your nation all you want, but lie, cheat and steal for your nation - you're just a thief and a liar.

Let loose the dogs of misinformation! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481485)

Counter propaganda is rife, backpedaling at the speed of light by the ukrainian "rebel" commander (who's actually Russian) and hordes of incoherent babblegaffers vehemently denying everything and making it even more painfully obvious what's plain for everyone to see.
Ukraine did not shoot down the Malaysian passenger jet, the rebels did, and boasted about it (then quickly removed the post).
Just watch what happens in this thread.
It will be very enlightening

Re:Let loose the dogs of misinformation! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481559)

But the most important thing is: "and saying that the priority is investigating whether U.S. citizens were involved."
*sigh*

Re:Let loose the dogs of misinformation! (1)

chispito (1870390) | about 3 months ago | (#47481955)

That's just an excuse to keep investigating until the US knows whom to blame.

04.10.2010 (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481489)

Russia already has a history of, at the very least, being a prime suspect for taking down a plane. The only difference now is that the world is actually watching this show more carefully.

Re: 04.10.2010 (2)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | about 3 months ago | (#47481589)

Both Russia and the USA have a history of supporting rebellions and shooting down passenger jets. America's was an Iranian Airbus.

Re:04.10.2010 (4, Insightful)

rasmusbr (2186518) | about 3 months ago | (#47481621)

Russia already has a history of, at the very least, being a prime suspect for taking down a plane. The only difference now is that the world is actually watching this show more carefully.

So does the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I... [wikipedia.org]
And Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... [wikipedia.org]

The only real lesson is that surface to air missiles are way to dangerous to be put into the hands of the military. Now think about putting them into the hands of rednecks and other idiots who fancy themselves rebels. In retrospect it is pretty obvious that this had to happen sooner or later.

Active ops (4, Interesting)

eddy (18759) | about 3 months ago | (#47481491)

Seeing a lot of pro-russian "psyops" on one local forum attached to a news outlet focused on economics, so much so that it's pretty obvious that it's organized. Massive amounts of downvotes on anything negative to the pro-russian side, and weak conspiracy theories written in broken english moderated up.

Not sure why they're wasting their time, but there you go. I guess the proud Cheka men have nothing better to do than troll forums.

Propaganda won't help this time (5, Insightful)

Rhywden (1940872) | about 3 months ago | (#47481493)

That kind of propaganda might help them inside Russia where Putin has almost complete control over the press. But outside? With all the incriminating stuff that's already turned up?

I really don't think that the other major players will be impressed by Russian propaganda. The Ukraine certainly won't. The US won't as well, due to their longstanding tradition of mistrusting Russia, in addition to having lost citizens in the crash. Neither will several states in the EU - the Netherlands won't be happy with an "accident" explanation, particularly in light of the fact that an anti-air missile cannot really be considered an accident.

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (2)

bhcompy (1877290) | about 3 months ago | (#47481527)

Then you read sites like Reddit and Twitter and see all the Russian apologists, just like the Hugo Chavez apologists that used to exist. The problem is that the news agencies now quote/source directly from those sites. Eventually, you get a 9/11-Afghan War situation where you're damned if do and you're damned if you don't

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (1)

Rhywden (1940872) | about 3 months ago | (#47481597)

Yes, they're quoting from those sites. However, they're quoting from both sites. For instance, SpiegelOnline has been very careful to treat such material as moderately unreliable.

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (1)

Rei (128717) | about 3 months ago | (#47481581)

I really don't think that the other major players will be impressed by Russian propaganda. The Ukraine certainly won't.

But what about the Crimea - will they listen to the America or the Russia? I mean, I'm writing here in the Iceland and we're not exactly a big player, but I imagine Americans of all stripes, from those in the California to those in the Florida, want to be sure that all of the relevant players in the Europe and the Asia don't fall victim to Russian propaganda.

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (1)

Zontar_Thing_From_Ve (949321) | about 3 months ago | (#47481637)

I agree with your post in general, but I want to point out a couple of exceptions. In English you're supposed to say "Ukraine" and not "the Ukraine" since Ukraine is an independent country and not a part of the USSR. The only people who know the difference and insist on "the Ukraine" are Russian sympathizers, so you're actually picking a side you may not wish to pick by saying "the Ukraine". Rules for languages other than English may be different. Don't agree with me? Then go to a website for a Ukrainian embassy in an English speaking country and you will see that they only say Ukraine and not "the Ukraine". I've been to Ukraine. I know.

Right now there's no evidence that any US citizens were on the plane, so the US seems to have not lost anyone in the crash. As far as what the Netherlands will do, well, to me they are sort of the kings of wussies in Europe so while citizens are going to be upset, based on posts here I get the distinct impression that Dutch people or at least the ones on Slashdot always pick the wrong side in a dispute. I wouldn't be surprised if the Dutch in particular view Russia as the aggrieved party in their dispute with Ukraine and start to push for the explanation that Ukraine did it and won't admit it.

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (2)

Rhywden (1940872) | about 3 months ago | (#47481661)

I agree with your post in general, but I want to point out a couple of exceptions. In English you're supposed to say "Ukraine" and not "the Ukraine" since Ukraine is an independent country and not a part of the USSR. The only people who know the difference and insist on "the Ukraine" are Russian sympathizers, so you're actually picking a side you may not wish to pick by saying "the Ukraine". Rules for languages other than English may be different. Don't agree with me? Then go to a website for a Ukrainian embassy in an English speaking country and you will see that they only say Ukraine and not "the Ukraine". I've been to Ukraine. I know.

Sorry, but I'm not a native speaker and such intricacies sometimes elude me. Seems strange to me that such a little article makes all the difference, because after all, you yourself call other countries "the US" or "the Netherlands".

And last time I looked both the US and the Netherlands were independent countries.

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (2)

OzPeter (195038) | about 3 months ago | (#47481783)

Sorry, but I'm not a native speaker and such intricacies sometimes elude me. Seems strange to me that such a little article makes all the difference, because after all, you yourself call other countries "the US" or "the Netherlands".

And last time I looked both the US and the Netherlands were independent countries.

The US and the Netherlands are special cases. For example in English you don't say "The Australia", "The Brazil" or "The Canada".

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (2)

Rhywden (1940872) | about 3 months ago | (#47481849)

Whatever. As I said, I'm not a native speaker and to determine affinity towards one side or the other merely through the usage of an article strikes me as foolishness at best.

It actually reminds me of the Jehovah-scene from Life of Brian.

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (2)

Talderas (1212466) | about 3 months ago | (#47481869)

And last time I looked both the US and the Netherlands were independent countries.

America is an independent country but the United States are not. Netherlands is an independent country but the Netherlands is not.

The key is that "the" is referencing a portion of country or grouping. So with the United States of America the article 'the' is reference the individual states which constitute America. The same thing applies for the Netherlands except you're dealing with an overloaded term. The Netherlands is a constituent member of the Kingdom of Netherlands which also includes Aruba, Curacao, and Sint Maarten. The Netherlands references that member country while Netherlands references the Kingdom.

That is why "the Ukraine" could be considered offensive to Ukraine. It's a phrase that is held over from the time when Ukraine was not sovereign and were constituent of the USSR.

"The" is not required when dealing with dependent territories, like Scotland, but it shouldn't be used when dealing with a sovereign and independent entity.

Re:Propaganda won't help this time (1)

The MAZZTer (911996) | about 3 months ago | (#47481791)

in addition to having lost citizens in the crash

I would think so too, but apparently as of this morning we're still not sure any Americans were even on board (?!?!) despite knowing when it happened that there were 23 on board. Of course maybe they're referring to actually finding and identifying bodies, I dunno.

It's Putin's fault (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481501)

And his head should roll. Exactly the same way GWB's head should roll for Iraq.

Re:It's Putin's fault (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481569)

Are you going to include John Kerry and Hilary Clinton for voting to support GWB on Iraq?

Re:It's Putin's fault (1)

Ultra64 (318705) | about 3 months ago | (#47481753)

Did they know Bush was lying when he said he had evidence?

Re:It's Putin's fault (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481585)

In the US, the truth shall set you free, in Russia you shall set free the truth of your choosing. Wait, was it the other way around? No, in the UK the truth..never mind, lets play a game of chess for the cessation of the conflict and go party with DJ Arty and girls of many nations!

Re:It's Putin's fault (0)

Aethedor (973725) | about 3 months ago | (#47481687)

In the US, the truth shall set you free,

Omg, how brainwashed one can be. The US is one big lie itself.

To me it's pretty clear. (3, Insightful)

Qbertino (265505) | about 3 months ago | (#47481517)

Slavian Farmers Militia ("Seperatists") bored and trigger-happy and with easy access to Russian military hardware. To dumb to doulbe-check their targets or to dumb to care. Wether this is Ukranian seperatists or not is of no significance - there all just pawns in a Game. I think Putin has since this begun weighing the risks of supporting seperatists and making russia fell big again - whatever that is - and keeping a low(er) profile. This could shift sentiment considerably.
Either way, I don't trust the guy but I don't consider east-ukranian militia folks rational enough to be under any usefull control by russian. When push comes to shove, they'll do whatever they feel like doing, as long as they've got enough ammo and toys and enough dumbwits who support their cause - whatever that's supposed to be.

Re:To me it's pretty clear. (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 3 months ago | (#47481659)

Yes once the real SAM like systems are in play its very complex.
Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 was shot down by the Ukrainian military over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... [wikipedia.org]
Iran Air Flight 655 had its correct transponder "squawk" code typical of a civilian aircraft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I... [wikipedia.org]
and perhaps Aerolinee Itavia Flight 870
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A... [wikipedia.org] (27 June 1980)
"On 23 January 2013 Italy’s top criminal court ruled that there was "abundantly" clear evidence that the flight was brought down by a missile."

Re:To me it's pretty clear. (2)

Rei (128717) | about 3 months ago | (#47481663)

The militias controlling Donbas have repeatedly complained about how little material support they've gotten from the locals and how few people have enrolled (although it supposedly varies a great deal from place to place). They get more than enough cheers and pats on the back (pre-conflict polling suggested about a quarter to a third would rather be a part of Russia than Ukraine and a majority are unhappy with Kiev - and I'm sure the remainder know well enough to keep their mouths shut), but the percent willing to put their lives on the line for Russia is apparently quite low. The local Ukranians involved are often reported a lot "softer" - the Russian commanders are more of the "shoot you if you don't obey orders" type.

Re:To me it's pretty clear. (1)

OzPeter (195038) | about 3 months ago | (#47481823)

Slavian Farmers Militia ("Seperatists") bored and trigger-happy and with easy access to Russian military hardware.

But is a SAM system something a "farmer" can just point and shoot? Or does it take training and expertise in order to shoot down an aircraft at 30,000 feet?

My expectation is that regardless of which side shot the missile, that they would have had to have been a trained crew - even just to correctly set the system up.

The Kremlin are busted (2, Insightful)

Katatsumuri (1137173) | about 3 months ago | (#47481529)

Too much evidence this time. Now it's only a matter of due diligence, and choosing to put them on trial as war criminals, or as terrorism sponsors, or both.

Re:The Kremlin are busted (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481613)

I hate to defend Russia on this one, but this whole thing stinks to high fucking heaven. There is no way it's just a coincidence that the exact same model airliner from the same country disappeared and was never found a few months ago.

Someone is trying to start WWIII. Mark my words.

Re:The Kremlin are busted (2)

amiga3D (567632) | about 3 months ago | (#47481873)

It's no big conspiracy. This is what happens when you start handing out weapons to radical people. "If it flies it dies" makes a great motto for anti-aircraft missile batteries. That's what you get from the crazies operating this weaponry. Not a lot of skill needed to use it so they also don't have the skill to tell a military cargo aircraft from a civilian passenger liner even if they did give a shit. I'm sure Russia didn't want this but they handed out the weaponry to these idiots.

Well they better hurry (1)

bazmail (764941) | about 3 months ago | (#47481533)

Coz we're wayyyyy ahead of them

Russian Internet propaganda army (4, Funny)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 3 months ago | (#47481543)

Hell, they were even able to enlist "Weird Al" Yankovic [wikimedia.org] .

ironic (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481579)

This Slashdot submission itself reads like propaganda distributed by western intelligence agencies. Complete with a final sentence that implies if people conclude it's not somehow Russia's fault, that can only be because Moscow "won the propaganda war" I.e. there's only one valid opinion to have - Washington's - and anyone who disagrees is a weak minded victim. Nice.

Ukrainian President (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481583)

The Ukrainian President said something about this? Wow. First thing I heard from him since he went into exile.

Russia has no choice (4, Interesting)

conquistadorst (2759585) | about 3 months ago | (#47481587)

Russia has no choice, they have to do everything in their power to stem the international avalanche of disdain that would otherwise befall them. Think about it:
  1. 1. Russia denies wanting to annex eastern Ukraine
  2. 2. Russia denies supporting rebels
  3. 3. Russia denies arming rebels
  4. 4. Rebels then shoot down an international civilian aircraft using the very weapons they weren't supposed to have

If the rebels are ever confirmed to have shot down the plane all of Russia's denials fall apart like a house of cards. Caught red handed. Except now there's international blood on their hands instead of just Ukrainian. Unfortunately for Ukraine, nobody really cares about them except their neighbors. So on that note, you can be guaranteed they will stop at nothing to prove rebels were not at fault. I have no doubt there will be people that will be "silenced". The stakes are simply too damn high.

Re:Russia has no choice (4, Insightful)

ericloewe (2129490) | about 3 months ago | (#47481653)

It's not like their denials were ever worth anything.

Putin denied having a single Russian operative in Crimea... until after the annexation, when he admitted that was a lie.

Given all the evidence of Russian involvement, denials are pure soviet-style bullshit.

Re:Russia has no choice (3, Interesting)

AlterEager (1803124) | about 3 months ago | (#47481881)

Putin has effectively already admitted that the rebels did it:

The state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.

-- Vladimir Putin.

Note that he doesn't say "Ukraine did it", he says "It's Ukraine's fault", i.e. that it would never have happened if Ukraine hadn't made such a fuss about having its territory annexed.

Classic victim blaming. "You made me do it, it's your fault".

The US media used to lap up Ruskie Propaganda (1)

Squidlips (1206004) | about 3 months ago | (#47481591)

Will they continue to? This will be interesting.... And how the heck did Russia end up with the block boxes?

Re:The US media used to lap up Ruskie Propaganda (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481651)

You have recovered black box, yes?
No.
*BANG*
You have recovered black box, yes?
Yes, but it needs to be turned over to...
*BANG*
You have recovered black box, yes?
Da comrade.

Re:The US media used to lap up Ruskie Propaganda (1, Troll)

amiga3D (567632) | about 3 months ago | (#47481879)

The US media lapped up "Soviet" propaganda. The new Russian government sadly isn't Socialist so they don't feel any sympathy for them. I get the feeling NBC thinks the wrong guys won the cold war.

US wars with Congressional approval since 1945: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481593)

0.

But let's speculate on the commies, by which I mean the glorious capitalism pervading Russia since 1990.

Re:US wars with Congressional approval since 1945: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481927)

0.

But let's speculate on the commies, by which I mean the glorious capitalism pervading Russia since 1990.

If by Soviet Capitalism you mean the general robbing of Russian state assets well, that ended as soon as Putin became leader.
Yeltsin was the biggest robber baron of all, of course pushed and helped all the way by the corrupt Americans and IMF.
What you have now in Russia can hardly be called capitalism.

Re:US wars with Congressional approval since 1945: (4, Informative)

halivar (535827) | about 3 months ago | (#47481953)

13, actually. But please, continue with your rant.

Wrong priority! (5, Insightful)

Aethedor (973725) | about 3 months ago | (#47481595)

... the priority is investigating whether U.S. citizens were involved.

Seriously, is that really what matters now? What an arrogant *****. What really matters is who did it and why. What's the risk for other planes. If it were the rebels, how did they get their hands on such advanced weaponry. 298 people died. Who they were is something to find out by the airliner company. A president, and specially one from the USA, should really have other things to worry about.

Re:Wrong priority! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481745)

Yes, that's the one that matters.

You know how people always scream about how it's none of the USAs business? Well guess what, this isn't any of our business, unless there was an American on board. And though normally the US would just roll in, this deals with Russia. And it's not exactly a good idea to just roll in there and break all of sorts of international laws when dealing with a country which really does seem as though it's trying to start WWIII.

Who benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481615)

The Russians have means but no motive.
The separatists have no motive and probably no means (but this is somewhat unclear).
The Kiev regime and NATO have both means and motive.

Re:Who benefits (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481693)

The Russians have means but no motive. The separatists have no motive and probably no means (but this is somewhat unclear). The Kiev regime and NATO have both means and motive.

Separatist sadly had means provided by Russians and most powerful motive of all time - stupidity. Do not think other people are idiots and believe Kremlin propaganda machine.

Re:Who benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481919)

Stupidity is not a motive, and there is little doubt who runs the bigger propaganda machine.

Re:Who benefits (3, Interesting)

abies (607076) | about 3 months ago | (#47481725)

Separatist have motive - they are trying to shoot Ukrainian military planes. They have means - they were showing BUK launchers themselves, Ukraine later said that they won't be able to operate them, but might have been wrong, especially given technical support from next country.
They had means and motive. And no clue this is rerouted civilian plane, because despite having enough capability to fire BUK (few people with neccessary skills), they weren't up to date on flightwatch... and decided to not ask on radio first.

So, in certain sense it is an accident. Same kind of accident as when sniper tries to kill person A, but person B moves in the way at last second. Sniper is still at fault, even if he had no motive to kill person B.

Re:Who benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481839)

The separatists still had no motive to shoot down a civilian airliner.

And if the Kiev authorities are directing civilian aircraft to fly over an active war zone they are still to blame, whoever actually pulled the trigger.
(That is to say if they did. It might have been a pilot error.)

believe everything you are told! (1)

Cardoor (3488091) | about 3 months ago | (#47481619)

or dont.. im continually astounded that people continue to believe what's told to them just because it comes from a tee-vee, internets, or ink on paper.. so long as the people telling the story look like me. oh yeah - those dumb russian citizens!! believe the propaganda that's administered to them by corrupt information! not like US.

Casualties (3, Insightful)

Celarent Darii (1561999) | about 3 months ago | (#47481681)

"In war, the first casuality is truth".
Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

Res eo magis mutant quo manent.

Re:Casualties (1)

Celarent Darii (1561999) | about 3 months ago | (#47481685)

*casualty

Davids baby sisters pet gerbil vs Goliath (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481727)

Can anyone in this day and age doubt that any Russian attempt to influence internet opinion will be completely overwhelmed by similar attempts by NATO?

US and UK "spreading the blame"?? (4, Insightful)

steveha (103154) | about 3 months ago | (#47481807)

From the summary:

U.S. and U.K. news organizations are studiously trying to spread the blame

WTF? Is this intended to somehow suggest that the USA and/or UK share some portion of blame?

The article linked in that part of the summary is a CNN article making the case that shoulder-fired missiles cannot reach 33,000 feet, so it must have been military gear. That's it... it even notes that both Russia and the Ukraine have such missiles.

This is news, and a news organization is reporting on it. Go figure. "trying to spread the blame"? "studiously", even! Really?

To whoever did this (3, Interesting)

Rashdot (845549) | about 3 months ago | (#47481827)

To whoever is responsible:

You make think that you're a big balled freedom fighting hero, but in fact you are the worst kind of coward. Instead of admitting what happened, and apologizing, and turning yourself in to the International Crimes Court, you're trying to put the blame on others.

You're a despicable coward. I hope you'll never be able to have good night's sleep for the rest of your stupid life.

MA370 Also Putin's Doing (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47481843)

He just a vary vary bad guy. Hitler in diapers now.

Ooo...not an INTERNET war...ooo... (3, Insightful)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | about 3 months ago | (#47481895)

Russia: guns, oil, money and thousands of practicing hackers
US: very, very peezed bloggers and president "with a pen and a phone"

Unfortunately, my money here is on Putin...again.

"treating it as an accident" (3, Interesting)

DarthVain (724186) | about 3 months ago | (#47481917)

As someone pointed out in the first thread of this tragedy, this is not the first time something like this has happened.

Obama may be being diplomatic so as to not call the kettle black so to speak. The US accidentally did the same to Iran years ago, except they were in Iran air space, the weapons were fired from a warship, by professional soldiers. Consequently rebels accidentally (and I have no doubt they did) shooting down an airliner, using stolen unfamiliar technology with little or no training by militia in the middle of a civil war seems rather less bad.

Also it dredges up the result which was all dead, and the USA not admitting any blame or fault, and instead writing a check for a few million to throw at the hundreds of victims families.

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?