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CCP Games Explains Why Virtual Reality First Person Shooters Still Don't Work

Soulskill posted about a month and a half ago | from the locate-enemy-then-fire-then-clean-vomit-from-keyboard dept.

First Person Shooters (Games) 154

An anonymous reader writes Icelandic studio CCP is better known for EVE Online, but its first foray into virtual reality with space shooter Valkyrie has caused a stir, and is widely seen as a flagship game for the Oculus Rift headset. In a new interview, Valkyrie executive producer Owen O'Brien explains what advantages the game will have when played with a headset — and gives his view on why a dogfighter is better suited to VR than a first person shooter: "People have hacked it together, but it doesn't really work," he says. "The basic problem is Simulator Sickness. In Valkyrie or any cockpit game or driving game, what you're doing in the real world, assuming you're sitting down, more or less mimics what your brain is telling you you're doing in the game. So you don't get that disconnect, and it's that disconnect that causes sickness. So, the problem with first-person shooters is that you're running or crouching or jumping in the game but not in the real world, and because it's so realistic it can make some people (not everybody) feel nauseated if they start doing it for extended periods of time."

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Go Linux! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484097)

I'm sure the real reason is that its not open source. Whose with me?

Re:Go Linux! (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484127)

I'm sure the real reason is that it's not open source. Who is with me?

Any ever play wolfenstin vr (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484133)

Or just see it

Re:Go Linux! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484253)

I'm sure the real reason is that its not open source. Whose with me?

Indeed. A slashdotter is only fully satisfied when the hardware is open, the source code is open, and when the device is running the Linux kernel. At this point the original company cannot make much money with the product anymore, because there is so many Chinese copies created from the fully open specs. But thankfully we have the Open Source Community, a magical software mill from where volunteer slaves appear to create hundreds of thousands lines of code for free. Sadly they cannot afford a quality assurance team.

Karma to burn so fuck you. (4, Insightful)

bmo (77928) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484539)

I could have let this one slide, but I have a few things to say:

1. Darl, Darl McBride, is that you? When will you be testifying against Mark Shurtleff and John Swallow? You have a chance to redeem your soul! Imagine that!
2. The myth that "you can't make money on open source" is a myth so debunked that you have entire industries built on it, from servers and supercomputers to cellphones and kids' toys.
3. The myth that people don't get paid (slaves) to develop open source is belied by the fact that small companies like IBM are major contributors and specifically pay for people to work on open source code.

And even Microsoft pays people to do it now.

You can take your 20 year old arguments, write them out on oaktag, fold it until it's all sharp corners, and shove it straight up your arse.

Have a great day.

--
BMO

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (0)

Noah Haders (3621429) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484579)

2. The myth that "you can't make money on open source" is a myth so debunked that you have entire industries built on it, from servers and supercomputers to cellphones and kids' toys.

nobody's making money in cell phones except for apple and sammy. but other than that, it's clear from your short list that nobody's making money from open source software. some people are making money from software that they run using open source software (because it's free).

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484735)

The myth that "you can't make money on open source" is a myth so debunked that you have entire industries built on it, from servers and supercomputers to cellphones and kids' toys.

In that case what you are actually selling is the physical hardware item. The hardware specifications of that product are still kept proprietary and closed source. Maybe if you are making something very simple like pasta, you can publish the details of the complete manufacturing process and thus make it "open source". Other than that, there is always some genie in the bottle if you want to sell something.

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484755)

While I concur with your opinion, I can't muster the righteous anger you have on the subject. Where does that come from?

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484797)

It's BMO, and he's a known stupid faggot. Right up there with Arker, i kan reed, and Jane Q. Public.

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484823)

Butthurt open source fanboys often assume a defensive angry position.

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485083)

It's sad that all you've managed to do is restate the implied proposition that they're angry.

We know they're angry. You have zero insight.

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (1)

Rinikusu (28164) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485093)

Well, exactly. Who the fuck wants to actually, you know, work for IBM? A gigantic, monolithic mega-corp with a potentially stable (not anymore!) cube job answering to middle management assholes, stuck in meetings, and occasionally getting to code for. Look, that might be your idea of a good job, but for many of us Open Source supporters, we're not wearing a tie or cutting off our beards just so we can get 'paid' to do open source. So when someone says "no one's getting paid to work on open source," what they mean is, there aren't many one man or 5 man shops developing Open Source for a living. There are exceptions, but there's a million projects out there that prove the rule.

Whether or not this is a good thing, I don't know, but I sure as hell didn't decide when I was 8 years old "Mommy! Daddy! I wanna be a numbered cube worker!" /snark

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (1)

bmo (77928) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485297)

>what they mean is, there aren't many one man or 5 man shops developing Open Source for a living.

Yes there are. They are also directly supporting that stuff for their clients and getting cash for it. Because a lot of businesses don't want a "one size fits all" solution, because "one size fits all" is a complete oxymoron.

--
BMO

Re:Karma to burn so fuck you. (1)

TeknoHog (164938) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485821)

I could have let this one slide, but I have a few things to say:

1. Darl, Darl McBride, is that you? When will you be testifying against Mark Shurtleff and John Swallow?

Is that an African or a European Swallow?

Still "Don't" Work? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484101)

I think you mean "Still Doesn't Work."

Re:Still "Don't" Work? (2)

Dins (2538550) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484267)

No, the grammar in the headline is correct. Shooters is plural, so "don't" is correct.

Re:Still "Don't" Work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484889)

Jesus, if you're going to go out of your way to be a complete ass hat (anyone who corrects grammar on a message board), at least do it correctly. What a super twat.

Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (5, Interesting)

gurps_npc (621217) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484113)

The Virtuix Omni is basically an omnidirectional treadmill.

You use it in a VR environment and to move forward, you walk forward on the treadmilll.

This should solve the simulator sickeness issue.

Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484173)

Ah ok, just install one of these in everyone's homes:
http://smartzona.es/content/uploads/2013/06/virtuix-omni.jpg
What a simple fix!

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (2)

gurps_npc (621217) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484221)

Do you know how many regular treadmills people have bought? And not used, of course.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

Erikderzweite (1146485) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484325)

I can easily afford it to get me one of those Virtuixes (Virtuii?), have a spare room to put it and find the technology really cool. Still, not sure whether I ever buy it. Must be getting older... Still, looking forward for very healthy geeks.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

Erikderzweite (1146485) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484181)

Went here to see whether a comment about Virtuix Omni has made it into the top three, was not dissapointed.

I'm curious though, how they manage to integrate the controls into the game. If all you have is a joystick, that's one thing, but if you want to have a full cockpit controls, you probably need some sort of VR gloves (and some kind of Minority Report controls). I recall seeing such gloves on an Occulus Rift presentation, but forgot how the project was called.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

Dins (2538550) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484285)

Went here to see whether a comment about Virtuix Omni has made it into the top three, was not dissapointed.

Haha, me too! Although combining an Occulus Rift and and Omni is probably a bit too much like actual exercise to really take off in a big way. Yeah it's a neat gimmick, but not conducive to gaming for hours. Unless you are specifically using it to make your exercise routine more interesting, in which case it's a great idea. That would be a different user base than for most video games, though...

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

David_Hart (1184661) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484513)

Went here to see whether a comment about Virtuix Omni has made it into the top three, was not dissapointed.

Haha, me too! Although combining an Occulus Rift and and Omni is probably a bit too much like actual exercise to really take off in a big way. Yeah it's a neat gimmick, but not conducive to gaming for hours. Unless you are specifically using it to make your exercise routine more interesting, in which case it's a great idea. That would be a different user base than for most video games, though...

It's true that most gamers aren't exactly fitness buffs. However, If VR and the Virtuix Omni makes a game more compelling and gives a player an advantage, then I think that you would see a higher adoption rate than you anticipate.

Personally, I was thinking that if the Virtuix Omni becomes popular, gamers could become as fit as some professional athletes. Think about it, if you game for 6 hours a week using the treadmill, ducking, jumping, etc., all while having fun, you would get into shape fairly quickly.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

sandytaru (1158959) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484759)

This is an anecdote, but back when the dance simulator games were a thing, that's exactly what happened. I had a friend who played Dance Dance Revolution quite extensively. He started out as a freshman in college at a heavyset 180 lbs. Two years of obsessive DDR knocked him down to 140 and pretty darn buff with a faintly visible six pack. Thanks to the core muscle build up, he hasn't really regained anything much in the ten years since.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

cbhacking (979169) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485105)

My roommate still uses DDR (OK, technically Stepmania) as his workout routine. I tend to go with Dance Central on the Kinect instead, but... yeah, they're both amazing workouts.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

ArhcAngel (247594) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485075)

You mean like Leap Motion? [leapmotion.com]

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484353)

That depends on whether the sickness is caused by the lack of leg movement or not. It think there's a good chance the problem is tied to the inner ear (or more precisely your sense of movement vs. visual feedback), or possibly something else, in which case a treadmill might not help at all.
 
This is only a guess, but I think the reason simulator games work okay is because real life piloting of cars and planes is actually what is outside our normal expectations for our physical movement versus our sense of movement. There's some good line by Seinfeld about how driving is us moving while staying perfectly still.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484483)

Plenty of people get motion-sickness on cars and planes (ferries too). Havent heard it happen to bicyclists (nor motorcyclists, but they use their body a lot to drive)

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484799)

Havent heard it happen to bicyclists (nor motorcyclists, but they use their body a lot to drive)

That is because people who are bad enough get it on bicycles or motorcycles tend not to do anything that doesn't require walking. Basically, you can get motion sick any time what you feel does not match what your other senses tell you. Being in control helps because when the input matches what you are doing that is another sense to say what the input should be. I can get it pretty bad in odd situations, large open spaces, like malls or fields and when I am not driving. I know people who run the gamut all the way to it being considered a disability. There are people who literally can't have fans blow in their face when still or with eyes closed; and some cannot even turn their heads when walking.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

arth1 (260657) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484599)

That depends on whether the sickness is caused by the lack of leg movement or not. It think there's a good chance the problem is tied to the inner ear (or more precisely your sense of movement vs. visual feedback), or possibly something else, in which case a treadmill might not help at all.

Indeed - the Virtuex Omni is more likely to make things worse. Your eyes say one thing, your feet another[*], and your inner ear disagrees with the two.

Think about it - when you drive a car, you don't have to move your feet like a mad runner in order to avoid feeling sick. Your inner ear gets the cues from the accelerations, and those match what you see, as long as you look out the windows. If, on the other hand, you're a kid that reads or play in the back seat, your visual cues don't match your inner ear, and you may get sick. No matter what your feet do.

[*]: Unless adjusted so 1 m in the game is exactly 1 m on the treadmill, and unless you only move on flat surfaces, it is safe to say that your legs will disagree with your eyes.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (2)

vux984 (928602) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484367)

The Virtuix Omni is basically an omnidirectional treadmill.

You use it in a VR environment and to move forward, you walk forward on the treadmilll.

This should solve the simulator sickeness issue.

Sure until you reach some stairs, or a ladder, or need to jump down from a ledge. Or crouch. Or do anything interesting with a portal gun.

And where do I put the keyboard and mouse? Or do I have to line up my shots with a toy rifle instead?

Thus being wasted by people playing in a chair with a keyboard and mouse, because I'm tired from running, and have gorilla arm from pointing. Hell, even the xbox controller crowd will finally have advantage over someone.

Not saying i don't think it would be cool I was actually on a VR setup with a treadmill like this years ago at a tech exhibition (Duke Nukem 3D was the game they used) and it was neat. But it was really neat as a 5 minute tech demo... and that's about it.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484403)

The Virtuix Omni is basically an omnidirectional treadmill.

You use it in a VR environment and to move forward, you walk forward on the treadmilll.

This should solve the simulator sickeness issue.

Actually, one of the creators of the Omni did one time mention that nausea can happen, since he experienced it himself. So I don't think it will solve the issue. I actually have experienced nausea in non-VR FPS games. Descent and the old Duke Nukem used to give me headaches and nausea on and off. Not all the time, but I had to stop playing and it would go away after 10 minutes with closed eyes.

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

KingOfBLASH (620432) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485035)

These are quite small! You could easily jump off it I think.

What I'm waiting for is a BIG room like treadmill. Something you REALLY could move on as if you were in space

Re:Not if you use the Virtuix Omni (1)

mr_mischief (456295) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485327)

Two words: hamster ball

Massive vertigo attacks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484139)

I am prone to vertigo and using these devices causes disorientation, stumbling, and occasional projectile vomiting. One time I got sick 2 days later and I'm pretty sure it was related to the fact that I vomited my stomach. Until these problems are solved, these cannot succeed, not even if they bundle it with pornography.

Re:Massive vertigo attacks (1)

Causemos (165477) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484695)

I would have similar issues. However I'd guess that a generation of kids growing up using them every day would learn to adapt.

"You ate the poison mushroom!" reflex. (4, Informative)

Ungrounded Lightning (62228) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484719)

The human body has three systems for balance - Inner ears (3-axis accellerometers and "rate gyros"), visual modeling, and muscle/tendon position & stress sensors - and needs any two to balance, stand, and walk properly.

It also has a reflex: When two of them disagree (particularly visual vs. ear), it is interpreted as "You just ate a neurotoxin! Get it out NOW and we MIGHT survive it!"

Thus nausea, projectile vomiting, explosive diahrrea, and clothes-soaking sweating if the mismatch is strong. If it's smaller - nausea. ("Whatever you just ate may have been toxic or spoiled. So you're not going to like it anymore.")

Of course other things than being poisoned can trigger it:

Diseases that temporarily incapacitate or permanently damage the inner ear are one class. (For instance, Meniere's Disease, where the pressure-relef valve for the inner ear sticks, the pressure rises, and the membranes with the sensory nerves tear. Result: Sudden extremem vertigo attack - hours on the floor - followed by days or weeks of gradually reduced incapacity until the brain maps out the change to the ear - followed by another tear and repeat indefinitely. Very high suicide rate.)

Vechicles, where you may visually fixate on the accellerating inside rather than the surroundings, are another: Cars, boats, ariplanes (and the corresponding car/sea/air sicknesses) are notorious, as are carnival rides and trains. For relief, make a point of looking at the horizon or otherwise the exterior. Eventually the brain may learn "I'm in a vehicle. Ignore the weird signals from the ears. (That's why vertigo sufferers may NOT have attacks in MOVING vehicles...)

And, of course, VR mismatches - to the point that there is a term of art: "Barfogenisis" (I hear the lengths of some of the rides at Disneyland are calibrated so they end and the crowd is out into the hall just BEFORE the effect would become pronounced.)

Re:"You ate the poison mushroom!" reflex. (2)

josquin9 (458669) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484803)

Never could stomach the first person shooter, going back to the first Wolfenstein that a friend had loaded on his 386. Shaky-cam movies have the same effect. I understand that about 15% of people get nauseated, and I've had to leave my eyes shut 80% of the time during movies where I wasn't expecting the technique (at least not for the whole movie.)

I usually just avoid movies that are shot hand held start to finish (I'm okay for a few minutes.) I keep hoping that the fad will come to a natural end, but I'm curious why producers would want to cut out 10-15% of their potential audience for a movie like "Edge of Tomorrow" or any of the other recent tent pole movies that use it.

I also haven't read whether there is any difference in the incidence of the condition among younger audiences raised on games. Anybody have any insight?

Re:Massive vertigo attacks (1)

FilmedInNoir (1392323) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484861)

I had that issue with Metro 2033. Even without VR (I do have a 27" monitor, so that was a factor probably) I got sick playing it.
I think it was because I'd be moving forward and my characters head (ie. camera) would be swiveling around looking at other things

Re:Massive vertigo attacks and Pron (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485011)

Mebbe porn doesn't fit this scenario. It is likely that many persons watch porn sitting down. Will doing this make you sick too? No reports of such so far....

Yeah, yeah... (1)

pushing-robot (1037830) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484141)

So, the problem with first-person shooters is that you're running or crouching or jumping in the game but not in the real world

Yeah, we know you're just trying to sell these. [virtuix.com]

barf (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484187)

This is the exact reason I stopped playing games when they all went 3D in the 90's. Some people get motion sickness from that, too. :P

Re:barf (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484311)

Do you get motion sickness also from less fast-paced 3D games, such as Portal or Skyrim?

Re:barf (1)

znrt (2424692) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484541)

wolfenstein 3D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D) is the only shooter where i have ever experienced that. consistently after playing about 30 mins, and my gf as well. it never happened with rott, quake, doom or any other shooter until now, and i've played quite a lot of them. based on this personal experience and comparing w3d to all others i would say framerate, turn speed and color saturation combined might be a relevant factor. i don't think it had anything to do with a contradiction of virtual and real states. don't really know about hmds, though, so that could be a different issue.

Re:barf (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484369)

This is the exact reason I stopped playing games when they all went 3D in the 90's. Some people get motion sickness from that, too. :P

I get seasickness from some fps games. Strange enough I always get them from console FPS games. Only sometimes from PC FPS games. Maybe it's the framerate?

Re:barf (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484429)

It could be the frame rate. Other theories that come to my mind is using a controller instead of keyboard/mouse, input latency, your distance from the screen, flickery screen (PWM), lighting conditions, etc.

Re:barf (1)

Wookact (2804191) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484449)

That might be. I would try one of the PC games that does make you sick, turn off the eye candy and get the frame rate up to see if it helps.

Re:barf (1)

sexconker (1179573) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484699)

That's because console games almost always have a terrible field of view. PC games are more likely to have a wider field of view and are more likely to let you adjust it.

Re:barf (1)

arth1 (260657) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484743)

I get seasickness from some fps games. Strange enough I always get them from console FPS games. Only sometimes from PC FPS games. Maybe it's the framerate?

No, more the rubberbanding. Consoles don't have mice that can easily change acceleration and start and stop instantly, so to make games playable with a controller, the movements are not synchronized with the stick - when you let go of the stick, you don't instantlly stop, but your movement slows down to a halt over a small period of time. So your actions don't match your movements.
That's also seen in bad console ports, by the way.

Re:barf (1)

Qzukk (229616) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484851)

That's also seen in bad console ports, by the way.

I've long since overcome my motion sickness (mom's van came with multiple barf buckets), but watching the screen move like I flicked google maps and it slowly pans to a stop (especially in any kind of curved motion) tickles the part of my brain that says "stop that, it's trying to make you sick".

Make the players mechs instead (2)

g0del (28935) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484235)

So put together some cockpit graphics and make the player models look like mechs instead of people. I'll admit that we'll probably never be playing quake/unreal style FPS games in VR*, but that doesn't mean that we can't have VR FPS-style games. They'll just have to be a little different from the shooters we currently play.

*Yes, there are omnidirectional treadmills, which will be great for getting gamers to exercise, but no one's going to be doing an all-day gaming session if they have to physically run the whole time.

The medium is the message (3, Interesting)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484251)

Changes in the medium can have massive changes in the message that is best sent through that medium. Before TV radio plays were huge, but TV simply was a better medium. It wasn't that radio plays sucked but that telling episodic stories was done so much better on TV. Also when TV first started much of it was simply radio plays put back into a stage format and videotaped. Moving the camera through the scenery with lots of outdoor locations were a while coming and again the flat play like structure is still used in sitcoms.

Within even moving our internet browsing and gaming to mobile devices has resulted in wildly different usage patterns, there are the obvious ones such as using map tools more but Facebook does not seem to have translated to mobile as well as instagram, or twitter. Also the first person shooter largely has failed on mobile whereas I don't think that Angry Birds would have gotten much traction in a desktop only universe.

So surprise surprise VR goggles aren't turning out to be a screen you wear on your eyes but a whole new medium. I am willing to bet that there will be a genre that takes off on VR and that genre might not even really exist right now. Something really different. A simple example of different was that Wii games had a wildly different flavour than anything proceeding them. I don't remember a game prior to the Wii where I stood on a platform eagerly flapping my arms to propel what looked like a guy in a chicken suit though the air. Yet the Kinect games never caught my fancy as the games were often too serious and made me feel like a fool flapping my arms. The Just Dance game was close but was probably too late.

I am going to throw this one out there for free: Maybe the VR goggles will take off in Colorado and Washington with the blockbuster title being "The Stoner Olympics"

Re:The medium is the message (2)

Ziggitz (2637281) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485081)

This is a major point that a lot of developers don't take into account when designing for a new medium. Taking into I/O bandwidth from player to device plays a huge role in the success of the product. This is why twitter is so popular, the limitation of the character input makes it more suitable for phones because you'll never have to type a lot on a crappy phone keyboard and the screen is the ideal size to digest the same volume of content. Add in the ability to use the smartphone's strengths such as mobility and posting pictures directly from the phone's camera as additional bandwidth from the user and it's a match made in heaven. If as you can do with VR is reproduce a similar experience to a PC game no one will buy it. They'l just keep playing their PC games with their music on and reddit or youtube on their second monitor while enjoying a beverage. You have to offer a more immersive experience if you're going to limit multitasking and convenience. I think what's really going to have to improve for a lot of genres of games is a massive improvement in the quality of movement out of the NPC's, natural responses from them, the writing of the stories and the dialogue. I think if you're required to be totally immersed in the game you are experiencing and less detached than you can be to a computer monitor you're going to suffer cheese much less.

The obvious FPS that needs to be made then (4, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484299)

Wheelchair Hunter eXTreme

You're sitting down. You could even sell wheels that attached to the side of office char armrests... and a gun accessory that tracked position relative to your body to match the virtual version.

Or, a Battlezone clone where you are in an open cockpit.

Re:The obvious FPS that needs to be made then (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485021)

So a Murderball peripheral? Interesting...

Re:The obvious FPS that needs to be made then (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485873)

You are a genius. I will buy your Wheelchair Hunter eXTreme game once it is available.

Please make it moddable. I want a chainsaw on my wheelchair. Woooo!

What of lag? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484337)

Visualization is incredibly powerful, but bad visualization is incredibly bad. I find that any kind of response time lag between my inputs and the real world, especially when it varies, is what makes me sick — and I can play descent without chunking without any trouble, so long as the frame rate is kept up.

Which is why FAST flicker still causes vertigo. (5, Interesting)

Ungrounded Lightning (62228) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484867)

I find that any kind of response time lag between my inputs and the real world, especially when it varies, is what makes me sick ...

My wife has vertigo. Her attacks can be triggered by fluorescent or high-pressure arc lights where the flicker rate is above the flicker-fusion rate of the eye. (This makes trips to warehouse stores problematic - they have to be short or she'll be down for the rest of the day. That's hard at, say, Costco.)

I used to wonder how this could be, and finally realized that the "strobe light" effect produces small, but significant, errors in observed position of the background items (shelves, etc.) that she uses for reference to balance despite the damaged inner ear.

When they first began using fluorescent lights in factories - in the days before guards over moving machinery were common - the worker injury rate went 'way up. Turns out the lights made the AC-powered motors, turning at or near an integer fraction of the line frequency, look like they were stopped or only moving slowly.

The fix was to build the light fixtures in two-tube versions, with a capacitor and an extra inductor in the balast, so the "lead lamp" and "lag lamp" would light at a quarter-cycle offset. In combination with suitably persistent phosphors this made them largely fill in each other's dim times, enough to make fast-moving parts blur and look like they were moving. For large arc lights, a similar fix was to arrange them so adjacent lamps were distributed among the three phases of the power feed, rather than having rows or patches of lights all flickering in unison.

Unfortunately, this lore has apparently been lost - at least outside the specialists wiring factories full of moving parts. Warehouse stores have rows and sections of arc lighting all wired to the same phase. I'm not sure, but I don't think the new electronic ballasts for flourescent lights do the lead-lag thing, OR have enough raw filtering capacitance to power the lamp through the phase reversals. (And then there's LED lamps...)

It's not a safety hazard these days, now that OSHA rules have all the fast-spinning machinery covered with guards. But for those with vertigo it's a big problem.

Can work for some.. (2)

Junta (36770) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484349)

I have high hopes that the movement won't bother me, I've never had a hint of the issues many report, though I haven't tried VR, per se.

I will say even if there is a problem for people who can stand it when it's a conventional screen but lose it at the threshold of VR, there is yet hope for FPS genre without cockpits. Imagine playing your game and the monitor having the appearance of a movie theater screen. An experience that is totally impractical in reality, but not really much of a big deal in VR. There is a lot of interest in things like VR Cinema and virtual desktop (https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8182). In both cases, the medium is still fundamentally not motion sensing or surrounding in any way, but the concept of playing with screen size, curvature, and distance freely all while not imposing any particular posture is quite appealing.

Sword Art Online (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484365)

So, just make it like the headsets in Sword Art Online.
What is the worst that could happen?

Re:Sword Art Online (1)

hypergreatthing (254983) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484489)

they might come out with a sequel.

Too late. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484629)

And the light novels it's based off of are up to like 5-6 sequels now :)

Or is it unrealistic speed? (4, Insightful)

Immerman (2627577) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484371)

Seriously - how many VR FPSes limit motion to anything resembling realistic speeds? Especially rotation. The average FPS has you running around at probably 20+mph and spinning 180* in a fraction of a second with a flick of the wrist. It takes me 3-4 seconds to complete a full rotation in real life at normal speeds, and if I spend much time turning quicker than that I start to get nauseous without any simulator needed. I can turn my head faster, but there's a lot more biofeedback maintaining orientation in that case. Spinning at FPS speeds should be generating massive accelerations of your inner ear, not to mention instantly launching from a complete standstill to a 20mph run - I'm not at all surprised that the absence of such accelerations throws people for a loop.

I haven't heard many complaints of nausea from the various VR first-person adventure games, and I can't help thinking tat that is largely because they are typically far slower paced than a twitchy FPS. An obvious solution would be more realistically paced FPSes. Or potentially even just considerably gentler accelerations. Maybe you can still run at 20mph, but it takes you 5-10 seconds to get there from a complete stop. Can't see any solution for faster spinning as radial acceleration is constant at constant speed, but then I'm not sure it's needed - being able to look around at a realistic pace should greatly reduce the need for instant spins, especially if you can aim independently from head tracking so that you can fire directly backwards at that guy just visible in the edge of your vision while looking over your shoulder.

Re:Or is it unrealistic speed? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484583)

...especially if you can aim independently from head tracking so that you can fire directly backwards at that guy just visible in the edge of your vision while looking over your shoulder.

What you're suggesting presents a whole new class of problems actually (from personal experience from while messing about with the Rift). The issue is that from the VR's headset point of view, there is no difference between rotating your swivel chair and facing a direction and moving your head.
The reason this matters is for having intuitive controls. When you push forward on your d-pad, and you're facing forward, you expect to go forward. When you press forward while facing right, you expect to go right. When facing forward with your head looking right, when you press forward, you expect to go forward, but instead you go right. The problem obviously exists with only slight head movements too.
The solution seems to be to tie directional control to body position (or at least shoulder orientation or something), and view control to head position. This would imply that first person shooter, to be played how you expect it to be played, required additional sensors besides those found on the Oculus. The necessary workaround without the additional sensors is to tie movement to view direction most of the time, but that causes the problems you correctly identify.

Re:Or is it unrealistic speed? (3, Funny)

sexconker (1179573) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484711)

It takes me 3-4 seconds to complete a full rotation in real life at normal speeds, and if I spend much time turning quicker than that I start to get nauseous without any simulator needed

3-4 seconds? Is that 1 second per hundred pounds?

Re:Or is it unrealistic speed? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485069)

It would be if you were carrying equipment, and had to take cover (or at least change position), and acquire a target with an weapon at realistic combat ranges (not the 20ft or so that most FPSs seem to simulate).

Re:Or is it unrealistic speed? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485179)

That can't be true. I am fat and out of shape and doing a 180 takes at most 500 ms Someone in good shape is probably faster even if they are wearing combat gear.

The velocity is superhuman in most 3D games but the turn speed is close to reality.

Or is it unrealistic speed? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485253)

I've found that FPS games like are perfectly fine in VR, provided a few limitations:

Head-tracking must be the only input method influencing camera rotation. You can, weld the gun to the player's face (Doom 3), you can decouple aiming and looking (ArmA), or you can make aiming relative (TF2).

You have to be standing up, or it just doesn't feel right. Sitting in a spinning chair just isn't the same. Try not to trip over the video cable.

You have to be limited to a realistic walking or jogging pace. Typical 20 mph walking speeds and even realistic sprinting speeds get overwhelming fast

3-4 seconds to turn around? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485301)

Holy crap you are slow.

I can turn my entire body 180degrees in well under a second, and I have to repeat that a dozen times or more before I start to feel the first hints of nausea.

Re:Or is it unrealistic speed? (1)

CrashNBrn (1143981) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485859)

That's one of the prime reasons I don't bother with most FPS-like games. Movement/directional schemes are almost exclusively tied to your mouse report rate. Many of the Action/RPG's have similar movement schemes as well, unfortunately.

I'm one of those people (1)

HangingChad (677530) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484395)

and because it's so realistic it can make some people (not everybody) feel nauseated if they start doing it for extended periods of time.

I had to quit playing FPS games for that very reason. I would get nauseous after a few minutes until I started taking ginger pills, which also work for me on boats. Can't rule out that it's not purely psychological but they worked whatever the reason.

Apparently ancient Chinese mariners used to use ginger for seasickness, but they all died anyway and didn't respawn. Obviously didn't do them a lot of good, did it?

Never had more fun in an FPS than HL2 on the Rift (2)

Knutsi (959723) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484401)

While I know some people are very suspetible to gettin simsick, I just want to add that some arent. I have used a Rift DK1 to play Half-Life 2, and it is the best FPS experience I have ever had. It adds an unbeliable amount of spacial sense and experience. I would not play it again without the Rift.

That said, I do need to take breaks every 45 minutes or so, and cannot play for more than three hours or so. Still, its absolutely worth it.

3D viewing (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484411)

There are two sets of muscles for eye movement - one for convergence, which rotates the eyes, the other for focus, which reshapes the eyes. These typically work in sync, allowing proper focus wherever one looks. In any given 3D system, however, the focus is fixed at the screen distance & never varies, while the eyes converge continuously for objects perceived at different depths. It is this disparity - one set of muscles attempting to remain fixed while the other changes continuously - that causes the brain to overwork, tire & cause headaches/discomfort, and is completely independent of any 'virtual disconnect' effects

Wait until you're older. B-b (2)

Ungrounded Lightning (62228) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484931)

There are two sets of muscles for eye movement - one for convergence, which rotates the eyes, the other for focus, which reshapes the eyes...

The latter system also reshapes the lens.

Unfortunately, as you age your lenses stiffen up and/or the muscles get weaker, and that system gradually degrades. (This "disease of age" (presbyopia) becomes significant pretty early - about mid 30s.)

(By the way: The eye rotation is actually THREE axis, although the motion around the line-of-sight is pretty limited. {Look in a mirror and rotate your head right-left to see it.} Apparently evolution found matching the image rotation by slightly rotating the eyes to be less expensive than a layer of image-rotation logic in the brain.)

FPS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484443)

"So, the problem with first-person shooters is that you're running or crouching or jumping in the game but not in the real world, and because it's so realistic it can make some people (not everybody) feel nauseated if they start doing it for extended periods of time."

My feeling is that it's not simply being a First Person Shooter but that the "it's so realistic" speaks more about the Frames Per Second*. That is, it's not that the game world is sufficiently realistic in what's drawn but in that there's enough consistency in what's displayed that the brain sees it as a fluid environment. Meanwhile, in games that suffer noticeable frame jitter, there's enough of a drop in immersion that most people will not get sick.

Btw, this is one reason why I tend to dislike HD 3D games. The increased draw distance of having more pixels on the screen tends to result in noticeable problems for games whenever you turn corners or anything else where occlusion algorithms have to be bulk recalculated instead of using some caching. The obvious alternatives are heavy use of fog--which could be done well if games actually used it right and it wasn't just a blanket fog in all directions all the time--and keeping a relatively static draw distance--which beyond causing obviously "mountain" pop-ups almost always fails anyways even at short distances when it comes to things like shadows.

Not to say some games don't get this right. But that list seems really short and usually only works as a byproduct of either selective level design to avoid large, open spaces or limiting the screen resolution significantly. Having said that, I'd love to hear replies of relatively new games that don't suffer the sort of catastrophic frame jitter issues.

*If a game ever drops below ~60FPS, you're likely to notice. It might not be a conscious thing as most people have become used to mentally compensating or being engaged enough in what's happening to ignore the incongruities--and the whole sickness thing is an unconscious thing, so those things are possibly related. I presume the VR work in question tries to do the latter and avoids the heavily "realistic" graphics in favor of more consistent frame rate.

Not since Doom II (1)

Rinikusu (28164) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484463)

Used to play Doom II for hours on end. And then one day, it was like a switch turned on my brain. Now, any FPS makes me motion sick. Quake, Duke, etc etc, I try to play, and up comes whatever is in the stomach. Oh well. Back to RTSs for me. :)

Re:Not since Doom II (1)

rwa2 (4391) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485279)

Was that perhaps the day you got a bigger monitor? Motion sickness is primarily influenced by what goes on in your peripheral vision. I've only ever gotten motion sickness on sims with wraparound displays on the sides, and it's quite awesome. Still saving up for extra screens for my gaming rig at home so I can have those side panels.

Star Citizen and the Stagnation of EVE Online (1)

sdack (601542) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484533)

If Mr. Roberts had not started the biggest crowd fund raiser in gaming history ever and for his upcoming space game "Star Citizen", then CCP might never had started their Valkyre project. CCP would problably still be trying to create a perma-death vampire game, or worse, to try and push micro-transactions together with vanity items further onto their players. It then just makes completele sense to go public and explain what FPS games cannot do, but their upcoming game can. Those cute, smug icelandian bastards!

Honestly, I am more interested in why the player numbers of EVE Online are in stagnation for the past 5 years now. http://eve-offline.net/?server... [eve-offline.net]

Re:Star Citizen and the Stagnation of EVE Online (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485117)

Eve always sucked, it's success was largely due to the fact that a lot of people are stupid morons. Everything about eve was bad.

Re:Star Citizen and the Stagnation of EVE Online (1)

sdack (601542) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485497)

Well, being, dumb, stupid, idiotic, moronic, and what ever else is - besides being insulting - a birthright of the young. The young are meant to be this way, because wisdom only comes with age and through a lot of experience. Do not blame them for it, but love them.

Games can help here. A PvP MMO game such as EVE Online teaches quite some interesting lessons. If you already have made all these lessons then bravo, good for you, but some are still in need of them and you should not mind it. They are only teaching these lessons to themselves and not to you.

Re:Star Citizen and the Stagnation of EVE Online (1)

mythosaz (572040) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485519)

It's an accomplishment that EVE lasted this long. Complaining that even in its decline that it has an extremely long tail is silly.

All kind of obvious (1)

DrXym (126579) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484631)

VR would be best suited to games where you remain seated, mostly look forward, mostly travel in a straight line and the game controls map onto equivalent virtual controls. Something like a race car, plane or space ship.

I suppose a FPS would be possible providing the person can remain seated but there are obvious control issues to figure out. For example if I look around for real, e.g. turn my head to look over my shoulder, what does that mean in a game where I'm lying prone staring down an iron sight at the time? Or if I'm standing in the game and I I look right in real life and then click aim - does my virtual counterpart assume some ludicrous pose to accommodate my action, or does it reorient itself facing forward while my real self is still looking over to the right? How does it reset the camera afterwards? It could prove messy and just serve to increase the chance of disorientation.

On the plus side, I guess VR could pull of a very realistic FPS Saving Private Ryan game where the people puke their guts up on the virtual landing craft and stand a good chance of serious injury when they storm the beaches.

Re:All kind of obvious (1)

Tailhook (98486) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485107)

I was thinking similarly. Their vampire game stalled out and died, as far as I know. They ultimately ended up apologizing for neglecting EVE while making incredibly sophisticated in-game avatars for a cohort of gamers least likely to care about such frippery. DUST 514 appears to be a failure, judging by CCPs own statements and the announcement of Project Legion, another attempt at MMOFPS.

One could be forgiven for thinking there are better places to find clues about the future of gaming.

3D viewing (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484663)

There are two sets of co-ordinated muscles in the eye - one for convergence, which rotates the eyes, the other for focus, which reshapes the eyes. These typically work in sync, allowing proper focus wherever one looks in space. In any given 3D viewing system, however, the focus remains fixed at the screen distance, while convergence varies continuously depending on perceived object depth. It is this disparity between the signals of the two muscle sets which the brain tries to reconcile (i.e. look ten feet away but focus one inch away) that causes discomfort & headaches (independent of any 'virtual disconnect' effect experienced).

The motion sickness (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47484669)

As far as I can recall, they encountered this same problem during the first wave of VR hype in the nineties. There's an irreconcilable sensory conflict, when the eyes tell the brain you are moving forward, yet the motion detectors in your ears tell the brain you that you are stationary.

That's nothing, I found something even worse (1)

GoodNewsJimDotCom (2244874) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484693)

From my Crystalfighter blog [crystalfighter.com]

May 2nd, 2014: I just thought of a killer game with Occulus Rift. Imagine outerspace sports. Imagine one where if you extend your legs or arms out full, they have thrust. The thrust can propel you around, or push the ball around. You'd have to be in a sphere(suspended in a harness) which rotated around instead of the standard treadmill design. So this installation would only be good for amusement parks and... arcades(heh)? The downside of this game is that people will get HYPER sick. You got 3d vision of Occulus, and you're spun around by your waist. I don't even know if it is possible to suspend someone from their waist and spin them in 360x360 angles. There would be 2 variations of this game. One would be a plain ball. The other one might be a ball which is charged with a + or -. And people would have positive on one side of them and negative on the other. I didn't think it fully out... I do think your hand thrust could be weaker than your leg thrust. So the standard move will be to stretch out like superman, your arms in front and your legs in back, so you push the ball forward with your forward thrust. Another standard move will be to put your arms and legs straight in front of you to thrust in reverse. Or both legs behind you and arms behind you to get super forward thrust. I think starting out, people will just have trouble stabalizing themselves, so there should be an autostabalization "friction" that can be applied to new players, and slowly taken off the more skill the teams have.

This is my problem exactly (1)

Chas (5144) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484707)

Originally I couldn't play 3D games. They made me ill.
Most 3D movies STILL make me ill.

However, I was able to train myself to play without needing to puke.
But watching someone else play still makes me incredibly queasy.

Recently, I had the opportunity to try out an Occulus Rift.
It hit me the same way. I had to stop playing before it got too bad. One of my colleagues was visibly ill after just a few moments.

Now some of it IS simply a matter of resolution and framerate.
But, as mentioned, some of it is due to myriad physical systems feeding your brain inconsistent data.

A bigger problem (1)

asmkm22 (1902712) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484737)

A problem that I think is bigger than motion sickness is the fundamental problem with locking vision and movement with where your gun is pointed. It doesn't come off as natural in the slightest, because your body is used to doing lots of different things at the same time.

Return of Space Sim Games? Zapper Fix? (1)

foxalopex (522681) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484789)

I played a lot of games and I always found that first person view games stood the best chance of giving me motion sickness. I think a console game called Spiral the Dragon was one of the worst. On the other hand racing games, space sim games and flying games gave me the least problems which to me proves that this statement makes perfect sense. Maybe this VR tech will bring back the popularity of these kinds of games considering they were my favourites when I was a kid.

On the other hand I remember reading about a tech which applied electrical shocks to alter your sense of balance. While this might be a little extreme, it might be the solution to this problem.

AR would avoid the sickness (1)

DriveDog (822962) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484855)

So don't sit down or run around in a 5x5 space and play. Augment the reality of running around a parking garage, the woods, whatever, with enemies, enhanced surfaces, objects, obstacles you won't be touching, etc., but let the player's motion be real. Then we'll benefit from the exercise, too. From the opposite perspective, that of making exercise less boring, wouldn't you run better if someone was chasing you or you were chasing someone? I know it's going to look hilarious to those around you without the AR gear, but that's a temporary situation. The funny part will be when you see an armed human coming toward you and another person sees you, a different type of dinosaur trying to steal the carcass they're dragging around.

Not doing it in real life? (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about a month and a half ago | (#47484981)

C'mon, be honest, don't tell me you don't duck when trying to avoid bullets flying over your head, or leaning to the side when trying to make that tight bend in GTA.

Re:Not doing it in real life? (1)

Quirkz (1206400) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485801)

The first time I played Doom I was so antsy trying to look around corners I was physically standing up in my seat and leaning around the side of the monitor, as if that would help. I grew out of that reflex with practice, though.

Re:Not doing it in real life? (1)

Nidi62 (1525137) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485817)

C'mon, be honest, don't tell me you don't duck when trying to avoid bullets flying over your head, or leaning to the side when trying to make that tight bend in GTA.

The other night I was playing Red Orchestra 2 and I was prone behind a fence and found myself craning my head to try and see under the fence a little bit better.

Depends on the FPS (1)

Nidi62 (1525137) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485133)

OF course, twitchy fps's such as CoD or CS would be horrible with VR, as the movement is way too quick. But slower games such as Red Orchesatra 2 or more survival-type games such as DayZ would be incredible with VR. While "e-sport" type FPS's like CoD an Halo might flounder, I think VR will be a boon for more realistic sims and tactical shooters. I look forward to the day where I can play a game and look around and feel like I'm crossing the scorching hot steppes of Russia in 1942, crawling through the jungles of Vietnam in 1967, or even combing through the passageways of a dark deserted space station not knowin if a horde of aliens or zombies (or alien zombies) are waiting around the next corner for me.

Motion sickness is protective. (1)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485229)

The brain gets lots of sensory input. It has evolved some kind of input validation procedure. The inner ears are sending information about which direction is up and which is down. We are also getting visual input, from which you can deduce the "up" direction. The trees and shrubs in the jungle, pillars, walls of the building etc tell the "up" direction. The brain expects them to be in synch. When they contradict one another, it could be due to some poisonous thing one has eaten. So throwing up is a reasonable reaction.

Of course as with any evolutionary biology explanation, the brain did not reason it out. It the past the bodies that had a nausea response to contradiction between visual and inner-ear cues of direction of gravity survived better and passed on their genes to us.

Re:Motion sickness is protective. (1)

Junta (36770) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485351)

Or it could be a deviation that had little to no practical downside in selection since the world rarely went that weird in the past. It would explain why motion sickness is so prevelant, yet not close to universal. There may just have been very little selective pressure either way.

I think on the poison theory, if your senses are impacted, the ship has sailed on ejecting the poison.

If it was a selected-for trait, my completely unsubstantiated guess would be something about falling out of or maneuvering within trees. After all, people who get motion sick can get sick in excessively peculiar real-world motion without messing with reference points (e.g. some people do it on roller coasters without looking at the car that much, or on boats without looking at the floor).

Joystick support? (1)

Kaenneth (82978) | about a month and a half ago | (#47485303)

I don't see anything about being able to use a joystick to fly in this game; which was a disappointment for me with EVE online, flying by point and click isn't the same.

Have you seen... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485687)

a 8-10 year old playing a FPS. They aren't sitting.

Open space (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month and a half ago | (#47485759)

A backpack with batteries, GPUs with plenty of open space is all you need.

That and gloves with heater/pelter coolers built in so when you put your hand over a lava pit it actually feels warm.

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