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China Plans Particle Colliders That Would Dwarf CERN's LHC

Unknown Lamer posted about 4 months ago | from the embracing-destiny-as-a-type-13-planet dept.

China 219

ananyo (2519492) writes Scientists at the Institute of High Energy Physics (IHEP) in Beijing, working with international collaborators, are planning to build a "Higgs factory" by 2028 — a 52-kilometer underground ring that would smash together electrons and positrons. Collisions of these fundamental particles would allow the Higgs boson to be studied with greater precision than at the much smaller (27 km) Large Hadron Collider at CERN, Europe's particle-physics laboratory near Geneva, Switzerland. Physicists say that the proposed US$3-billion machine is within technological grasp and is considered conservative in scope and cost. But China hopes that it would also be a stepping stone to a next-generation collider — a super proton-proton collider — in the same tunnel. The machine would be a big leap for China. The country's biggest current collider is just 240 meters in circumference.

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Super-collider (4, Funny)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 4 months ago | (#47514649)

So I said, "Super-collider? I just met her!" [audience laughs] And then they built the super collider. - Humorbot 5.0

Re:Super-collider (1)

hawkinspeter (831501) | about 4 months ago | (#47515425)

Anecdote accepted. Snappy comeback not found.

AWKWARD

Re:Super-collider (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515861)

Humorbot 5.0
Or as they say in Futurama, the laughter behind 'All My Circuits'.

Big leap for China (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514655)

The machine would be a big leap for China.

Yup, you might even call it a Big Leap Forward.

I'll go fetch my coat, thanks.

Re:Big leap for China (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514713)

Big Leap Forward.

Great Leap Forward. [pandawhale.com]

.

How many broken parts trying to spin up? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514663)

Cern had how many set backs while trying to power the thing up in the early stages of testing? With all the corruption China has I wonder how this will compare.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (4, Funny)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 4 months ago | (#47514679)

Either it will never work, or it's going to create a sub-atomic black hole that will eat up half of their installation, or it's going to create a soccer ball-sized black hole that could have destroyed our entire solar system if it weren't for the fact that aliens will stop them 3.14159265359 seconds before the event.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514701)

Why would aliens use seconds as a time measure?

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514733)

Because seconds are the one thing you dirty commies can't metricize!

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515229)

Because seconds are the one thing you dirty commies can't metricize!

Actually 1 second is already the period of a 1 METER pendulum... so HA, you have been getting pinker every time you look at that dirty commie second hand on your watch!

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515507)

Actually, that's a coincidence. Meter has dependency on second, not the other way around:
the duration of 9192631770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.
the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299,792,458 of a second.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515587)

isn't it the french trying to metricize everything?

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (1)

jabuzz (182671) | about 4 months ago | (#47515655)

I was not aware that the French Revolutionary government was a communist one. In fact I don't think communism even existed when the metric system was invented.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514741)

I knew something was off in his posting, you nailed it!

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514745)

Where does it say that aliens use seconds?

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514799)

They don't use seconds. We do. Their actions can still be measured with any unit of time. We use ours, they use theirs.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515091)

Kinda coincidental then that they would do it in pi seconds before the critical event, don't you think?

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (1)

Iamthecheese (1264298) | about 4 months ago | (#47515681)

If for reasons of cultural sensitivity they wanted to stop the explosion at our smallest common* unit of time they would use 1 second plus expansion time. Now a soccer ball is 11 cm in radius. If we assume the expansion to that size is done at light speed it will arrive there in .00000000003669 [wolframalpha.com] seconds. So they'll stop the experiment at t-1..00000000003669 seconds. They must use very precise clocks.

*yes I know bout clock ticks, just go with it.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515333)

They don't use seconds. We do. Their actions can still be measured with any unit of time. We use ours, they use theirs.

unless they aren't aliens at all, but a super advanced civilization that left this planet after an inevitable asteroid impact was detected about 65 MYA. then it would only be natural that they would use seconds, but they might have been a tad bit shorter than our seconds.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (1)

oobayly (1056050) | about 4 months ago | (#47514841)

Why wouldn't they:

... the second has been defined as the duration of 9192631770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom

It's clearly the obvious way to define time.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (1)

NatasRevol (731260) | about 4 months ago | (#47515041)

They rounded it down to 9 billion even.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (2)

jandrese (485) | about 4 months ago | (#47515483)

Who says aliens use base 10 math? Base 8 or Base 12 would make a lot of sense, and then their round numbers would be something totally different.

Re:How many broken parts trying to spin up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515435)

And so it comes to this , The great mineshaft race has finally begun !!

The flavour of sour grapes (5, Insightful)

jandersen (462034) | about 4 months ago | (#47515847)

Cern had how many set backs while trying to power the thing up in the early stages of testing? With all the corruption China has I wonder how this will compare.

Of course CERN had problems - this is not engineering, but science. The big difference between the two being that you call it engineering, when you know in advance how to do, and science when you don't. No doubt, the first time a simple van-der-Graf accellerator was built, they had to overcome a number of problems; now, it is something you'd let a student do, because all the technical problems have been ironed out. And when/if China builds this new cyclotron, they will run into a large number of technical problems; of course they will. No need to start constructing fables about "all the corruption"; all that says is that you are suffering from petty envy.

Bigger Colliders (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514675)

Eventually they're going to dig all the way to America to make a Super Duper Whopper collider!

Re:Bigger Colliders (1)

peragrin (659227) | about 4 months ago | (#47515557)

It would be easier to build a ring around the earth. Bonus is that the vacuum can easily be established

Sometimes I am jealous (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514683)

For all the downside of the one-party system and semi-centrally planned economy, sometimes I am jealous that China can just move forward with things like this. Environmentalist cry about a rare species becoming extinct? Screw them. A few thousand people displaced? Deal with it. If something is in the nation interest, it gets done.

Re:Sometimes I am jealous (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514965)

Sure, the hell with stupid stuff like the environment or long-term effects! I want my toys!

Idiot.

Re:Sometimes I am jealous (1)

OakDragon (885217) | about 4 months ago | (#47515165)

Funny thing is, journalist Thomas Friedman is jealous of China's "one party autocracy." Except he would use it in America to unilaterally shut down industries he sees as contributing heavily to AGW.

Re:Sometimes I am jealous (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 4 months ago | (#47515377)

Fortunately Friedman only has gadfly-level powers.

Re:Sometimes I am jealous (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515353)

Perhaps one of the benefits would be an education system that teaches the difference between envy and jealousy.

Re:Sometimes I am jealous (1)

tomhath (637240) | about 4 months ago | (#47515899)

Envious of them because they're in the early planning stages of a collider that might be constructed almost 20 years after CERN's? It will be a nice step forward if they pull it off though.

Make-work Project? (1)

Joe Gillian (3683399) | about 4 months ago | (#47514687)

This sounds like a make-work project by the Chinese government to try to boost their economy. Construction is a huge business in China that accounts for a large portion of their GDP - that's why you see things like the "ghost cities" there, where construction workers built thousands of apartments and offices that aren't ever going to be used simply because the Chinese government needs to keep pumping money into construction.

Digging a 57-kilometer underground tunnel would probably put plenty of construction workers to work for a while - not to mention hauling in all the equipment, doing all the wiring and piping, etc.

Re:Make-work Project? (5, Interesting)

Richard_at_work (517087) | about 4 months ago | (#47514781)

Every country has make-work projects, some of them even have additional benefits - the EU is currently reviewing a energy savings plan where one of the main points is "costs will be offset by the jobs created to implement this directive". Make-work.

In reality, the Chinese project is definitely not make-work if they plan to do actual research. The "ghost cities" you talk about are actually gradually filling up as more population moves from rural settings into the cities - this has been a long term goal of the Chinese government, but their "long terms" are a fair longer than the "around next election time" terms that westerners tend to think in.

If you want to see some real "ghost cities" there are plenty in Spain, entire towns and cities, with airports, which were built to sustain the Spanish building industry during the 2008-2013 period, and the properties have never been put on the market.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

operagost (62405) | about 4 months ago | (#47514833)

The "ghost cities" you talk about are actually gradually filling up as more population moves from rural settings into the cities - this has been a long term goal of the Chinese government, but their "long terms" are a fair longer than the "around next election time" terms that westerners tend to think in.

True, running a government is so much easier without that pesky democracy to get in the way.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 4 months ago | (#47514883)

Or even the illusion of one.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 4 months ago | (#47515347)

Believe me, the Chinese government spends rather freely on maintaining the illusion.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 4 months ago | (#47515441)

I wasn't talking about China.

Re:Make-work Project? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515267)

True, running a government is so much easier without that pesky democracy to get in the way.

That's why no one has tried in over 2500 years.

A true Democracy would be a terrible system indeed, with the rich even more firmly in control. People give away their password for chocolate bars (70%) or even nothing (34%!), so voting for some obscure law, probably a chocolate bar would do just fine, or at least a threat of getting fired.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2... [theregister.co.uk]

As for what you think is "democracy" but is really some elections where you pick one pre-chosen candidate - what a great choice. Especially since almost no one even pretends to vote for a candidate but for a political party said candidate says they represent.

But there are people being elected for longer periods of time in said "democracies" than the unelected bureaucrats get to spend in the Chinese parliament. Somehow these self-serving bureaucrats understand that renewal of the political body is an important part of having up-to-date policies. But in "democracies" people just vote for same incumbent decade after decade - a guaranteed position for life.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515449)

Don't be that guy. Republics are democracies.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515661)

a republic could be a theocracy (see Iran). China's name is the People's Republic. Republic just means you use representive government. Now whether those representitives are selected by democratic elections, Clerics, or a Politburo determines what type of republic it is.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

khallow (566160) | about 4 months ago | (#47515465)

A true Democracy would be a terrible system indeed, with the rich even more firmly in control. People give away their password for chocolate bars (70%) or even nothing (34%!), so voting for some obscure law, probably a chocolate bar would do just fine, or at least a threat of getting fired.

Things change when you toss in the second or the third rich person. They will need to offer more than a candy bar.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

The Evil Atheist (2484676) | about 4 months ago | (#47515337)

China is actually experimenting with democracy on a local government level. The "shock therapy" theory of introducing democratic reforms all at once doesn't actually work.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

iserlohn (49556) | about 4 months ago | (#47515839)

It's what they have always done. The candidates you get to chose however are all from the same party, or officially blessed.

Haven't you heard of all that stuff going on in Hong Kong, how Beijing previously promised direct elections for the Chief Exec via Universal Sufferage in 2017, and just recently then they announced that all candidates have to be vetted by the 1200-person "Election Committee" stacked with pro-Beijing representatives? That caused ~500k people to take the streets and protest in Hong Kong.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

the gnat (153162) | about 4 months ago | (#47515945)

The "shock therapy" theory of introducing democratic reforms all at once doesn't actually work.

It worked fine for South Korea, Taiwan, Poland, the Czech Republic...

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

Mysticalfruit (533341) | about 4 months ago | (#47516015)

I'm still trying to understand whose going to grow all the food once all these rural peasants (you know the ones who've been on their land for generations farming) get moved into the city.

Honestly, I have no doubt that China can pull this off, but at what cost?

Suboptimal Design (5, Interesting)

Roger W Moore (538166) | about 4 months ago | (#47515311)

In reality, the Chinese project is definitely not make-work if they plan to do actual research.

True but a circular design for a electron-positron collider is far from the most efficient. At the energies needed to create the Higgs the energy loss caused by bending the electrons around in a ring means that the ring has to be far longer in circumference than a 'one-shot' linear collider would need to be. Worse if we find something even more exciting like Supersymmetry in our next run of the LHC starting this coming March you will never be able to increase the energy of a circular e-p machine to study it whereas with a linear collider you can extend it.

A circular machine only makes sense with heavier particles like protons but I question whether the cost savings of a single tunnel for both an e-p machine and a future proton machine will outweigh the massive increase in the cost of the magnets and accelerating cavities for the e-p machine.

Re:Suboptimal Design (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47516003)

The cost of synchrotron radiation loss must be weighed against the loss of *THE ENTIRE ENERGY OF THE PARTICLE* in a linear accelerator.

Re:Make-work Project? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515735)

" The "ghost cities" you talk about are actually gradually filling up as more population moves from rural settings into the cities - this has been a long term goal of the Chinese government, but their "long terms" are a fair longer than the "around next election time" terms that westerners tend to think in."

I very much doubt that the Chinese govt planned or expected those ghost cities to stand empty for over a decade.
Otoh it does not matter to the real estate speculators who made out like bandits on that bubble.

Re:Make-work Project? (1)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 4 months ago | (#47514815)

This sounds like a make-work project by the Chinese government to try to boost their economy. Construction is a huge business in China that accounts for a large portion of their GDP - that's why you see things like the "ghost cities" there, where construction workers built thousands of apartments and offices that aren't ever going to be used simply because the Chinese government needs to keep pumping money into construction.

Digging a 57-kilometer underground tunnel would probably put plenty of construction workers to work for a while - not to mention hauling in all the equipment, doing all the wiring and piping, etc.

At least they're doing something constructive with their projects for once. As fun as the empty cities might be for film makers and urban spelunkers they're otherwise a huge waste. Maybe we can get China to build a space elevator!

But labor costs! (1)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | about 4 months ago | (#47514697)

Now if only they could find a source of cheap, expendable workers to mine the tunnel...

Re:But labor costs! (0)

OakDragon (885217) | about 4 months ago | (#47515171)

May be a few Americans lining up for that job...

Cost Seems Low (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514699)

The estimated replacement cost for the Tappan Zee bridge in NY is about $4B. A small bridge was replaced near me at a cost of over $100M. It seems like something of this magnitude will cost a lot more than $3B.... or it's an incredible scientific bargain at this price.

Re:Cost Seems Low (3, Informative)

necro81 (917438) | about 4 months ago | (#47514831)

The cost of the LHC has been estimated at $9 billion [wikipedia.org] . I know there are different labor costs between Europe and China, but there are lots of costs that can't easily be brought down. The tunnel's gonna need a whole lot of concrete, steel, etc. - global commodities whose cost doesn't vary that much by geography. The LHC is packed to the gills with custom components: everything from the the superconducting magnets to the RF generators to the detectors to the massive computing systems to sift through all the subatomic debris. Even assuming China has the technical expertise to create that custom componentry (a question I can't answer - I simply don't know)...

does it pass even casual scrutiny to think that China can make a collider of twice the size at one-third the cost?

Re:Cost Seems Low (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515017)

I know there are different labor costs between Europe and China, but there are lots of costs that can't easily be brought down. The tunnel's gonna need a whole lot of concrete, steel, etc. - global commodities whose cost doesn't vary that much by geography.

Of course they can be brought down. When you own the entire chain from the part that digs up the iron from the ground to the place where you install the steel in the accelerator there is only one cost, labor.

Tax-funded EU-projects like LHC have a dual purpose. On one hand they are there to make sure that EU are competitive when it comes to science but they also boost the local market and are generally required to buy everything from companies residing within EU.

Re:Cost Seems Low (2)

khallow (566160) | about 4 months ago | (#47515373)

The tunnel's gonna need a whole lot of concrete, steel, etc. - global commodities whose cost doesn't vary that much by geography.

And don't actually cost that much.

The LHC is packed to the gills with custom components: everything from the the superconducting magnets to the RF generators to the detectors to the massive computing systems to sift through all the subatomic debris. Even assuming China has the technical expertise to create that custom componentry (a question I can't answer - I simply don't know)...

I doubt they do. And I doubt that lack of technical expertise is actually an obstacle. After all, prior to constructing the LHC, Europe didn't have that expertise either and yet all those devices got built just the same.

does it pass even casual scrutiny to think that China can make a collider of twice the size at one-third the cost?

I bet the EU could do that too. But it'd require changing how they build such things.

Re:Cost Seems Low (2)

necro81 (917438) | about 4 months ago | (#47515689)

After all, prior to constructing the LHC, Europe didn't have that expertise either and yet all those devices got built just the same.

I disagree: there is a decades-long history of building similar, though simpler, devices in Europe and the United States. Sure, there was a lot of invention involves and new challenges to tackle, but a lot of the fundamental technologies already existed. More importantly, there was a substantial population of people who had experience in designing such (earlier) technologies, manufacturing them, getting them to work, and maintaining them. China does not have that kind of depth.

Re:Cost Seems Low (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514909)

When your labor force is either given the option of working on this thing, or sewing soccer balls together with their teeth in a jail somewhere, it tends to keep the costs down.

SSC circumfrence was to be 87 km (2)

mdsolar (1045926) | about 4 months ago | (#47514703)

This is starting to get close to the Superconducting Super-Collider size. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... [wikipedia.org]

Re:SSC circumfrence was to be 87 km (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515265)

How American, to think that that matters.

If you're talking about the same particles (which you're not), at the same energies (which you're not), then larger actually means more primitive technology. So basically you're bragging, "oh, if we actually wanted to spend the money 20 years ago, then we could've had something that would've been impressive for 20 year old technology." Doesn't have the same ring to it, does it?

Try the veal (5, Funny)

paiute (550198) | about 4 months ago | (#47514705)

The problem with Chinese subatomic particles is that one half-life later you are ready for more.

The only black hole created... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514727)

...will be the waste of human resources chasing after proving theories.

When will we see some beautiful humanitarian achievements?

Re:The only black hole created... (1)

NatasRevol (731260) | about 4 months ago | (#47515123)

As soon as people stop wanting power & control?

Earthquakes? (0)

Ronin Developer (67677) | about 4 months ago | (#47514731)

Sounds cool. But, given China's perpensity to have massive earthquakes, is the building of such a large collider a wise idea? I would think a 57 mile diameter ring of superconducting, supercooled magnets and high vacuum might have some integrity and alignment issues even after a minor tremor let alone a large quake.

Circumference (2)

mdsolar (1045926) | about 4 months ago | (#47514765)

Those are circumferences, not diameters.

Re:Earthquakes? (1)

chentiangemalc (1710624) | about 4 months ago | (#47514801)

Certain regions are prone to have earth quakes, but not all regions, and not around Beijing. Almost all that do occur are in 2.5 - 5.4 magnitude rnage "Often felt, but only causes minor damage." Sichuan has had some bad earth quakes (8.0,etc) but it is not near Beijing.

Re:Earthquakes? (2)

mark-t (151149) | about 4 months ago | (#47515131)

The point the poster made, which I think is legitimate, is that even a very small earthquake could probably be catastrophic for a collider's integrity and alignment.

Re:Earthquakes? (2)

Neil Boekend (1854906) | about 4 months ago | (#47514861)

China is big. Saying China is prone to earthquakes is akin to saying the USA is prone to earthquakes.

Re:Earthquakes? (2)

Roger W Moore (538166) | about 4 months ago | (#47515341)

Remember that the accelerator is in a tunnel usually through rock. Unless there is a fault line through the ring - which would be really stupid - the accelerator will be shaken and will need realignment but the damage should not be enormous. They have very successful accelerators in Japan.

What in theory could physicists do (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514737)

What in theory could physicists do if they could make stupid-big colliders, like the circumference of the Earth or the solar system?

.

Data beyond the standard model (2)

mdsolar (1045926) | about 4 months ago | (#47515115)

The origin of the matter-antimatter imbalance in the universe is something that people try to solve using the standard model and indications that charge-parity symmetry breaking occurs in some interactions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C... [wikipedia.org] Much larger collides could explore this beyond leptons as well as ideas beyond the standard model such as supersymmetry and string theory and their connection with vacuum energy.

Re:What in theory could physicists do (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515479)

Play 8 ball Pool but being American probably invent some weird god damn awe-full game no one else plays and call it the galaxy championship.

This is a collider of extraordinary magnitude (0)

NotDrWho (3543773) | about 4 months ago | (#47514755)

It has our gratitude.

Only 240 GeV though (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514803)

Fair enough, it's a big tunnel, but the first iteration is only set to run at about 1/60th of the energy of the LHC according to the site. The super-proton upgrade *does* look interesting though.

LEP was 209 GeV (2)

grimJester (890090) | about 4 months ago | (#47515033)

This is a pretty small upgrade from the LEP that used to be in the current LCH tunnel. That went up to 209 GeV and ruled out Higgs masses up to 115 GeV. The Higgs is around 125 Gev, or 9% higher, and the energy of this is supposed to be 240 GeV, or 15% higher.

That makes me wonder if the planned energy is enough for a useful Higgs factory. The ILC [wikipedia.org] is supposed to do 500 GeV and would work well as a Higgs factory. That proposal would be more than twice as expensive though.

It's of course possible the article has it wrong and it's really 240 GeV per beam, adding up to 480.

Bragging Rights (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514827)

I didn't expect to read the phrase "much smaller" referring to the Cern LHC for quite a while.

I wonder how much of this has to do with fundamental research and how much has to do with high energy physisists and governments wanting to be able to say that theirs is bigger than someone else's.

Re:Bragging Rights (1)

geniice (1336589) | about 4 months ago | (#47515063)

There was a largest collider competition towards the end of the cold war. Hard to say if CERN was part of it but the LHC did get some parts cheap due to the other projects being cancelled.

VLHC (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514865)

So will it be known as the Very Large Hadron Collider?

VLHC (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514893)

Or the Even Larger Hadron Collider?

Re:VLHC (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514905)

Very Large Hard-on Collider.

Re:VLHC (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514923)

Is not small! Asian collider is good size! Girlfriend say so!

Pen(cil) is measuring contest. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47514921)

> China. The country's biggest current collider is just 240 meters in circumference.

Thus spoke "free world" media. Some 150 years ago, colliders weren't yet an issue. In that era whites' press alleged the chinese (and other asians) had penetrators, whose circumference and lenght made ladyfolk die by way of unstoppable laughter...

Yet, somehow the chinese (han) nation managed to multiply to more than 1.3 billion people by now, while white and black numbers stagnated or even declined.

IANAPP (I am not a particle physicist (1)

rossdee (243626) | about 4 months ago | (#47514947)

The LHC created a higgs boson by colliding protons. This Chinese collider is planned (according to TFS) to collide electons and positrons. IANAPP but I am not sure that would create a higgs boson. However colliding an electon and a positron would create energy )matter and antimatter) probably in the form of gamma rays.
Whereas colliding protons and antiprotons will give of some energy in the form of neutrinos

In fact electrons and positrons are Leptons, so wouldn't this be called a Large Lepton Collider (LLC)?

Re:IANAPP (I am not a particle physicist (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515683)

the chinese could be interested in Antimatter for fusion research. Maybe figuring out new storage techniques for antimatter.

We had issues of blackholes with LHC... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515163)

Now that China wants to do it, we can be sure that it will happen, from the poor build material and quality they will put in there.

We should act quickly! (5, Funny)

ctrl-alt-canc (977108) | about 4 months ago | (#47515181)

Or the markets will soon be invaded by cheap made-in-China Higgs bosons. Although swiss-made Higgs are known to be by far more precise and accurate, the cheap chinese bosons will send CERN factory into bankrupt, unless some kind of duty is introduced to slow down foreign particles.

U.S. in the rearview mirror (0)

Lije Baley (88936) | about 4 months ago | (#47515187)

You've been hiding under a rock for forty years if you don't know what those white flags on the Brooklyn bridge mean.

Re:U.S. in the rearview mirror (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 4 months ago | (#47515303)

The white flags mean some unionized cops get to collect overtime for removing them.

Re:U.S. in the rearview mirror (1)

GNious (953874) | about 4 months ago | (#47515317)

You've been hiding under a rock for forty years if you don't know what those white flags on the Brooklyn bridge mean.

What's a Brooklyn bridge?

Re:U.S. in the rearview mirror (1)

rossdee (243626) | about 4 months ago | (#47515463)

" if you don't know what those white flags on the Brooklyn bridge mean."

Don't we have to wait til Bridget Anne Kelly or David Wildstein publishes their memoirs?

I wish them the best... but (2)

wjcofkc (964165) | about 4 months ago | (#47515193)

I accept that China is now a leader in science and technology. I wish them the best on this project and I am sure it will yield fantastic science. I just hope by "international collaborators" they mean more than the Russian Federation. As an American, I hope we get in on the action.

Just one thing though: if you are going to go to the trouble to build such a big and expensive machine, why not build a linear collider? I realize it would take more land, but I'm sure they have it and the science would be even better. Correct me if I am wrong, but after the second refit of the LHC, isn't the next big international European science project going to be a big honking linear collider? At that point, it won't matter that China's collider is bigger, you can get more interesting results from a gigantic linear collider. Although the idea of a super-proton collider does tickle me a bit.

Oh great! (1)

guygo (894298) | about 4 months ago | (#47515349)

Just what we need. From the people who brought you the Yutu moon rover...

Pay people to dig holes, then fill them (1)

Gothmolly (148874) | about 4 months ago | (#47515393)

They have hundreds of millions of single men which they need to keep employed.

Good thing the US is mortgaging its future to keep China together today.

Is the diameter relevant? (1)

sinktank (871915) | about 4 months ago | (#47515405)

I thought the power of these things were measured in TeV...

Serious question to any engineers who know how to build these devices: is the diameter/length of the accelerator relevant to the performance or just to the cost?

They will spiral down just as USSR did. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515429)

Their economy, although growing, cannot continue its current direction and will eventually spiral down to where military spending cripples the rest of the economy; just as the USSR's economy did. Let's enjoy their limelight basking while we can, LOL.

US STEM Efforts in 2028 (2)

l0ungeb0y (442022) | about 4 months ago | (#47515501)

The President of the US will proudly announce the Free Education Market, in which all American children unable to afford a Million Dollar College Tuition common among even State Colleges on their own must apply for and accept a College Scholarship Loan from an approved provider in the National Marketplace. All recipients of these scholarships will agree to work for a salary reduced by up to 90% until the cost of the Scholarship is paid back plus interest of up to 20%. All Children who do not obtain a Scholarship from the Free Market will be barred from employment. The White House has hailed this a critical step in returning America to the forefront of the Science and Technology.

Good luck with that (2)

Lawrence_Bird (67278) | about 4 months ago | (#47515717)

LEP operated around 209 GeV in 27Km so this Chinese proposal of 240 GeV at 52Km is.. underwhelming. Realize things like labor cost less in China but this isn't a high rise they are making. LHC cost amost $5B to build. Where is China getting the magnets? I'm not sure US export controls will allow a sale. And then there are those pesky detectors which are technological marvels themselves.

Still unfortunate that we can't scale up anti-proton production to levels necessary for high luminosity.

this will not end well (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515867)

this will work out about as well as China's high speed bullet trains... China is too isolated, this kind of engineering can not be accomplished w/o real international cooperation on all levels.

steal technology? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47515919)

They won't have to travel out of the country to steal technology; the world will bring it to them.

Will It Cook? (1)

Jim Sadler (3430529) | about 4 months ago | (#47516013)

Can they stir fry in that thing?
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