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VP Biden Briefs US Governors On H-1B Visas, IT, and Coding

Soulskill posted about 3 months ago | from the at-least-he-was-wearing-pants dept.

Government 225

theodp writes: Back in 2012, Computerworld blasted Vice President Joe Biden for his ignorance of the H-1B temporary work visa program. But Joe's got his H-1B story and he's sticking to it, characterizing the visa program earlier this month in a speech to the National Governors Association as "apprenticeships" of sorts that companies provide to foreign workers to expand the Information Technology industry only after proving there are no qualified Americans to fill the jobs. Biden said he also learned from his talks with tech's top CEOs that 200,000 of the jobs that companies provide each year to highly-skilled H-1B visa holders could in fact be done by Americans with no more than a two-year community college degree.

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Yay! Hopenchange! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47518853)

Gotta wonder who Slow Joe cribbed his speech from this time? Neil Kinnock's country doesn't have an H1B program...

Re:Yay! Hopenchange! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519013)

The jobs could in fact be done by Americans with no degrees at all. This cultural indoctrination that you must have a degree must end. I've been programming for 30 years as a profession and I have never had a degree, and I'll never submit to the immoral status quo by getting one. I have both the theory, the experience, and the necessary practical skills under my belt, and all without a single degree.

Re:Yay! Hopenchange! (2, Insightful)

fsck1nhippies (2642761) | about 3 months ago | (#47519125)

I am with you there. Our best employees are the ones that have not been through the debt claiming process of getting a degree. I personally find that the guys we have that went are way too comment happy. 8 lines of comment for a well named variable. The Cisco techs that we have comment access lists for port 80 traffic as "web server". IF you didn't post AC, I would love to talk more.

Appre (5, Insightful)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about 3 months ago | (#47519333)

Our best employees are the ones that have not been through the debt claiming process of getting a degree

Biden is insisting that the H-1B program must go on because it provides a sort of "apprenticeships" to foreigners

Well, I was from China, but am an American and I can speak with the view of a foreigner (the one from China) and that of an American and I can tell you that if America does not stop giving "apprenticeships" to foreigners one day there will be no more jobs for Americans

The old way of giving "apprenticeships" for "foreigners" was the way I got mine - When I landed on the soil of the USA I was a young refugee without a full secondary school education

I had my "apprenticeships" inside America because I had no place to go and after I graduated from college (with no debt, since I worked 3 jobs on the side - sometimes more than 3 jobs - while studying) I worked at American technology companies where I got further training.

After that I started my own companies, sold some of them, and re-invested what I got into other startup and made even more

In other words, while America provided "apprenticeships" for me this former "apprentice" stayed put in America and started businesses in America and created many job opportunities for other Americans

On the other hand, the way H-1B visa program works is that it provides "apprenticeships" for foreigners, and they got back to their own country, taking their skills with them, start up their own businesses in their own countries, create job opportunities for their own people, not Americans

Who loses in this game ?

The Americans

Who win ? The foreigners

Folks, especially you Americans out there --- please top the politicians, no matter from which political party they came from, from destroying America from the inside out

What Biden is doing is to cut out the innards of America and give it to the foreigners

Re:Appre (5, Insightful)

lgw (121541) | about 3 months ago | (#47519719)

The problem isn't people coming here on H1-Bs, but their difficulty in turn that into a green card. The "apprentices" would mostly stay here if they could. And does anyone really want to argue that immigration of well-educated, highly-skilled engineers is bad for America?

All the focus on the political immigration debate seems to be on low-skilled workers, and the answers aren't so easy there. But anyone who can come here and work a job that pays $100k+? Keep em coming, I say.

Re:Appre (2, Interesting)

AchilleTalon (540925) | about 3 months ago | (#47519833)

Mod up the parent. Skilled people are a plus for America if they can stay.

Re:Appre (4, Insightful)

Third Position (1725934) | about 3 months ago | (#47519925)

"Highly skilled" does not necessarily mean "highly in demand". Given that there are highly skilled Americans that can't find work, yes I will argue they're bad for America.

College is useful for most ... (4, Insightful)

perpenso (1613749) | about 3 months ago | (#47519197)

The jobs could in fact be done by Americans with no degrees at all. This cultural indoctrination that you must have a degree must end ...

In my 30 years of programming experience I have rarely seen a job advertisement that did not say 4-year degree or equivalent, equivalent as in on the job experience, as your experience suggests.

... I've been programming for 30 years as a profession and I have never had a degree, and I'll never submit to the immoral status quo by getting one. I have both the theory, the experience, and the necessary practical skills under my belt, and all without a single degree.

Some of the best programmers I know never finished college. However they are **extremely** rare. They will read and figure out college level material over a broad set of topics on their own time on their own initiative, a broad set of topics comparable to those found in a typical degree program. However most of the self taught do not seem to be that self motivated, they may study some topics that are of interest to them but they will not have the broad understanding that the former or the formally trained typically have. Many of the formally trained are no more intelligent nor any more self motivated, but they had external motivations compelling them to study things that they had little interest in. The odd thing about many of the less interesting topics is that they often have unforeseen application to problems you eventually encounter and/or they are actually more important than you knew.

That said, there are also many in college who really have no interest in programming and are just there to get their "ticket punched", to get a piece of paper. They did not enter the program because of any inherent interest in programming and engineering, rather someone told them it was a good career path. Such individuals do not turn out to be the better programmers either. In contrast those with an inherent interest in programming often go far beyond the work required for class and use the incredible resources found at a university to study things that otherwise would have been beyond their resources.

So if a person has the time and resources to attend college they would do a great disservice to themselves to skip it due to some political position. You get out of college what you put in, and you will have access to resources and people you probably could not find anywhere else. And that includes likeminded peers. Its one thing to collaborate on code over the internet, its another thing to sit side by side staring at the same screen trying to puzzle something out and walking around campus bouncing ideas around. Plus there is also ready access to individuals studying other necessary disciplines. The density of useful knowledge and experience is quite high among fellow students at a university, its just a matter of finding people with genuine interests in their respective fields rather than the ticket punchers.

Re:College is useful for most ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519293)

In my 30 years of programming experience I have rarely seen a job advertisement that did not say 4-year degree or equivalent, equivalent as in on the job experience, as your experience suggests.

Well, I have.

But that's besides the point. When I first started programming as a job, obviously I didn't have any job experience, so there were companies willing to take you in. Everyone has to start somewhere.

However most of the self taught do not seem to be that self motivated

I assure you, most college students are neither motivated or intelligent, either. You're going to have to work to find talented, intelligent people, and you can rarely do that by going on degree alone. I know you later say that many people go to college just for the degree, but I'd say "grand majority" describes the situation better than "many."

So if a person has the time and resources to attend college they would do a great disservice to themselves to skip it due to some political position.

I can say with absolute certainty that I did not do myself a great disservice. I am an autodidact through and through, and do not fit into the formal education environment; it would only have made me miserable.

You get out of college what you put in

You get out of education what you put in. College is only one possible means to an end. But really, college can actually get in the way, since you'll possibly be given assignments and tests that simply aren't necessary (because you already understand that material), and if you learn much faster than the class can teach. And, as I said, not everyone is suited for the formal education environment.

Re:College is useful for most ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519461)

I can say with absolute certainty that I did not do myself a great disservice. I am an autodidact through and through, and do not fit into the formal education environment; it would only have made me miserable.

You Are Not Alone!!

Re:College is useful for most ... (2)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | about 3 months ago | (#47519481)

count me in as one of those rare ones. I never finished college (transferred a bunch of times and lost credits so at grad time, I thought I had enough but actually didn't; got a job offer, took it and never finished school). but I've been working in the industry since the early 80's and consider myself to be completely competitive with actual degree-holders.

its hard to get experience without a degree; but one short-cut is to go to a co-op or intern-based school (for me, it was northeastern in boston) and that got me enough starter experience to bootstrap me into the workforce. after that, no one ever really cared about my lack of a sheepskin.

College is useful for most ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519729)

I didn't see a problem with Biden's comments and makes me wonder if Computerworld is nothing more then an industry sympathizer, or worse they are being bought off buy the tech industry to make sensationalism rants instead of pointed to the facts.

I did find a problem with his comments on companies claiming if they couldn't find qualified US born workers they can fill out the jobs with H-1B workers, I seriously question this whole "highly-skilled" H-1B nonsense, to me a lot of these jobs are nowhere near highly-skilled, and these companies are looking for nothing more the cheap, dangerously close to slave, labor. And who is really keeping an eye on these American born jobs seekers? Are these companies looking for US born workers or are they in fact being passed over for H-1B workers! Companies have a pretty pathetic application/Interview process which seems intentional fixed so they can come up with excuses to hire H-1B labor.

I believe anyone should get an opportunity to work in any field they want, no matter where their from. But lets call this out for what it really is. Monopolistic companies/corporations looking to have cheap throw away labor, and they've proven they can buy off just about anyone of influence and political power to try and get what they want. However if the general voting populace doesn't agree with the crap their politicians are trying to lie to them over then these companies are going to lose out. This is a roller coaster topic with the public commenting on being against it, then saying its not as bad as first thought, and they change their opinions yet again.

Re:Yay! Hopenchange! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519327)

Universities are a HUGE business with their tentacles in the government structure and in society's mind. Selling information, enforcing a feudal social model.

Biden is talking coding?? (1, Offtopic)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | about 3 months ago | (#47518863)

Joe Biden knows less about coding than my daughter.

Hell, he probably knows less about coding than he knows about guns...

Hint, Joe: firing a shotgun THROUGH your front door violates pretty much every rule about target identification that there is.

Re:Biden is talking coding?? (1)

Cryacin (657549) | about 3 months ago | (#47518973)

Identification? We identified you as standing behind the door already.

Re:Biden is talking coding?? (3, Interesting)

Stargoat (658863) | about 3 months ago | (#47518993)

Joe Biden is a bit of a buffoon, but that thing about firing a shotgun through a front door is taken out of context. He was referring to someone's question about hypothetical end of days where target ID rules likely aren't such a big deal.

Biden did actually advocated firing a warning shot through a window, which is illegal and presumably not during the end of days. Not very clever, Uncle Joe.

It's kind of like the Al Gore Internet stuff. I am not Al's biggest fan, but the guy never said anything about inventing the Internet. Al Gore was instrumental in getting the Federal Government to begin using the networks, particularly for check processing. He saved the taxpayers quite a bit of money by doing this. Gore was one of the first elected officials to really get what the Internet was going to do for society.

Re:Biden is talking coding?? (3, Funny)

amiga3D (567632) | about 3 months ago | (#47519345)

Don't pick on Joe. His job is really just being there so no one tries to kill the President. As long as Joe is number two man no one would dare.

Re:Biden is talking coding?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519769)

Biden is a shitbag and a loon. No doubt about that.

Re:Biden is talking coding?? (1)

pkinetics (549289) | about 3 months ago | (#47519775)

Biden: What does this big shiny red button do? I guess I'll push it and find out. Hmm... Nothing is happening. I'll just keep pushing it.

Re:Biden is talking coding?? (3, Insightful)

bobbied (2522392) | about 3 months ago | (#47519037)

Joe Biden knows less about coding than my daughter.

He knows less about coding than my Grandma who just now figured out this touch tone dialing thingy... (Forget the cell phone and that pesky "send" button..)

Hell, he probably knows less about coding than he knows about guns...

That's not saying much... Biden generally knows nothing (or perhaps cannot remember anything) about guns or any other subject he goes into public to talk about. He's an old guy who has lied for a living so long he knows no other way, and now he's loosing what was left of his mind and is struggling to keep his story straight enough to get though the current speech without contradicting himself twice in the same paragraph.

I'll say this, Biden is the one major reason I'd never support impeachment of Obama and why I pray he stays alive well past 2016. Biden is off his rocker and off the rails and he cannot remember from one moment to the next what he's said. We are better off with the current president than Biden, maybe not much, but enough I'm not willing to risk Biden.

Re:Biden is talking coding?? (3, Insightful)

xfizik (3491039) | about 3 months ago | (#47519067)

Success in life in not measured by how well you know coding. Especially when you can hire someone who does know the stuff. It's unfortunate that politicians have little clue about things they talk about, but since I'm not American I quite enjoy these public blunders.

Mandatory IQ Tests for Politicians? (-1, Flamebait)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | about 3 months ago | (#47518891)

Do they do a test before they get elected to ensure that no one with an IQ of over 60 can be elected? It seems statistically unlikely that we've developed such an awesome collection of concentrated dumbass in one place on earth without actually trying to do so.

Re:Mandatory IQ Tests for Politicians? (1)

Cryacin (657549) | about 3 months ago | (#47518979)

They're smart, they just play dumb. It's more profitable.

Re:Mandatory IQ Tests for Politicians?? (0)

sumdumass (711423) | about 3 months ago | (#47519693)

Plausible deniability..

However, some comments made by politicians make s 60 IQ seem like a mensa candidate. I mean we have that guy from texas who thought the term black hole was a sexist and racial derogotory term. Snd there was that senator who feared an island would flip over. Of coursd nanci pelosi gives us s few good ones too.

Re:Mandatory IQ Tests for Politicians?? (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about 3 months ago | (#47519749)

Don't forget about all those maned mars missions.

Re:Mandatory IQ Tests for Politicians? (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 3 months ago | (#47519091)

We just need TERM LIMITS for all Elected Federal offices. I figure give them 12 years in congress max. After that send them packing for home. This Strom Thurmond's 47 years, and Ted Kennedy's 40 years stuff has got to stop.

they can't find people who will work 60-80+ hours (5, Informative)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 3 months ago | (#47518905)

they can't find people who will work 60-80+ hours for very low pay and the will to be in a place where they can't quit and will be big suck ups not to get fired.

It's not about skills it about this

  On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 LESS then what USC get.

$13000 less and they get 60+ work weeks out of them as well.

they can't find people who will work 60-80+ hours (3, Informative)

Entrope (68843) | about 3 months ago | (#47519213)

Hey, working 60+ hours per week is a bona fide occupational qualification for some jobs! These immigrants are just filling jobs that Americans don't want to do.

Another problem is that these companies tend to tailor H-1B job requirement statements to particular foreign candidates in such a way that essentially every US-based candidate who might see the posting would not qualify or would ignore it (for example, because of that pay disparity or the work week or other conditions listed in the job description).

Re:they can't find people who will work 60-80+ hou (2)

rtb61 (674572) | about 3 months ago | (#47519423)

Free market - they are filling jobs locals don't want to do for the money being offered - apparently it's only a one way free market - surprise, surprise, surprise. Using the car analogy Unions provide for lanes travelling in the other direction, from the top down to the bottom. Want change unionise and kill the H-1Bs.

Re:they can't find people who will work 60-80+ hou (1)

Entrope (68843) | about 3 months ago | (#47519723)

Unions are an incredibly poor way to control abusive employer tactics unless workers in the bargaining unit are basically fungible -- and knowledge workers are not. A much better approach would be something like an online exchange for H-1B job postings, where US-based employees can register their interest for a job opening (along with their current and/or target salary) and see whether the job eventually goes to someone with permanent work authorization in the US and what the salary is, and perhaps see an anonymized summary of the eventual hire's qualifications relative to the posting's requirements. This would give employees most of the information necessary to (decide whether to) file a complaint either with immigration authorities or in court.

Re:they can't find people who will work 60-80+ hou (1)

Lije Baley (88936) | about 3 months ago | (#47519217)

Though they do spend about 20 of those hours smoking and watching cricket matches.

2+2=? (5, Insightful)

pla (258480) | about 3 months ago | (#47518913)

Biden said he also learned from his talks with tech's top CEOs that 200,000 of the jobs that companies provide each year to highly-skilled H-1B visa holders could in fact be done by Americans with no more than a two-year community college degree

So perhaps he can reconcile those two concepts and explain why we allow H1Bs when we have MILLIONS of unemployed college grads?

Mr. Biden, I have a word of advice for you - CEOs lie. And not just a little, but as their primary (and sometimes only) qualification. You might not want to go around repeating the crap they spew to try to sway you to do their bidding. It just, y'know, make you look like a little like a Special Olympics winner, if you get my meaning.

Re:2+2=? (4, Informative)

DivineKnight (3763507) | about 3 months ago | (#47518999)

Dude, give up while you still can. They can't hear you over the sound of those campaign contributions.

Re:2+2=? (2)

fsck1nhippies (2642761) | about 3 months ago | (#47519179)

I hate to say give up, because I agree with you. The problem is that no-one cares about their tiny issues until AFTER an election. I personally am happy with a divided congress and a president that can't do anything. Hell, it hasn't hurt us for the past 6 years (actually 14-2). When government is barely keeping up, the people are moving ahead. Stop giving and vote to the middle. Start at home and divide the hell out of your local government. At least you won't have to worry about walking your dog after 6pm with the leash in your left hand. There are 3 major political entities in our country... Republicans, Democrats, and The People. Vote that way. It can't get any worse.

Re:2+2=? (1)

DivineKnight (3763507) | about 3 months ago | (#47519569)

"It can't get any worse." -> It can always get worse (that's a law, up there with Murphy's law)...but I do agree with you on getting people to vote.

Re:2+2=? (1)

Mashiki (184564) | about 3 months ago | (#47519381)

Pretty sure you mean they can't hear you over the sound of contributions, and special interest groups that are pushing for "amnesty." Man if I knew I could become an american citizen by pissing on the rule of law, I would have stayed in the US and said fuck you.

Re:2+2=? (1)

DivineKnight (3763507) | about 3 months ago | (#47519595)

So...that kind of begets the question, where did you move to? And how do you feel as a victim of our foreign policy? ;-)

Re:2+2=? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519043)

It just, y'know, make you look like a little like a Special Olympics winner...

Please don't insult the Special Olympics winners or the other participants by associating them with a career politician.

Parrotting the words of CEOs who like this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47518925)

"Oh, we would just LOVE to hire people for these positions, but it's just so TOUGH... even if the position requires a 2 year degree."

Naturally, if 200,000 such people did graduate tomorrow, the CEOs will have another excuse why this corporate welfare program needs to keep going.

Re:Parrotting the words of CEOs who like this (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about 3 months ago | (#47519069)

Well, yeah. The real excuse is that those locals get paid too much and are too difficult to intimidate, but that can't be made public.

H-1b should not be used for lower-level workers (3, Insightful)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 3 months ago | (#47518933)

Some places want them to fill lower-level rolls and low pay as it's much cheaper and they locked into the job.

Now maybe if there was say very high H-1b min wage say 100K + COL and forced OT pay (so they can't get the work 2-3 people out of 1 h-1b) that would get rid of a lot of the abuse of the system.

Re:H-1b should not be used for lower-level workers (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519021)

Yeah, imagine if they started using H-1B workers to replace middle and upper management. Those good old boys would rally together and end that in seconds.

Re:H-1b should not be used for lower-level workers (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about 3 months ago | (#47519089)

Yeah, imagine if they started using H-1B workers to replace middle and upper management. Those good old boys would rally together and end that in seconds.

What makes it work is the perception that whatever you're displacing whether it's IT or development is just a matter of following procedures, something anyone could do, so the smart company hires the cheapest people possible for the job. Go immediately to 4) $$PROFIT$$. Management, however, takes skill and insight and intuition and all those other things that are difficult to measure, so they can't possibly be replaced.

Re:H-1b should not be used for lower-level workers (1)

guruevi (827432) | about 3 months ago | (#47519283)

The problem is that the whole computer eco-system is built on the premise that whoever is buying doesn't have a clue what the fuck they are doing. Most of the niche and custom software (think PeopleSoft which comes as a set of basic HTML blocks and a database) is something that can be built much better for a company in less than 6 months by a team of dedicated and decent programmers.

Yet, the person buying doesn't have a clue what they are doing so they throw a few million at it and 2-3 years of H1B's and overpaid (for their qualifications) contractors to come up with a system that is more broken in the end than when it started. The same happens everywhere and at every level. Desktop software: Throw a few millions at Microsoft and Dell so everyone can browse the web and receive the occasional e-mail on a system that could run Crysis 5 when it comes out in 2020 even though a Raspberry Pi would be good enough for most of the fleet. Web software: throw a few millions in the directions of Oracle and IBM in order to serve out 99% static pages.

Re:H-1b should not be used for lower-level workers (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | about 3 months ago | (#47519233)

Some places want them to fill lower-level rolls

you'd actually want a kaiser for that, I think. no?

Re:H-1b should not be used for lower-level workers (1)

Em Adespoton (792954) | about 3 months ago | (#47519365)

Some places want them to fill lower-level rolls

you'd actually want a kaiser for that, I think. no?

I'd love to fill a lower-level Rolls -- as it is, I have to settle for my compact....

Re:H-1b should not be used for lower-level workers (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519805)

H-1B visas, guest worker programs, whatever it may be, low-skill or not, how about a mandate that the pay must be equal to the average wage in the industry? This includes benefits. And it should be calculated on the the work performed by American citizens. Not permanent residents, but citizens, to be sure it's not abused in any way.

2 year degree ya right. (1)

musixman (1713146) | about 3 months ago | (#47518935)

Try & apply for a job at, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc with a 2 year degree. Good luck.

Re:2 year degree ya right. (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 3 months ago | (#47518961)

MS does hire people with less then that.

Google is the one that wants people with masters / PHD's.

Re:2 year degree ya right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519039)

Well, you need a PhD to program hosted adware nowadays.

Re:2 year degree ya right. (1)

Mashiki (184564) | about 3 months ago | (#47519939)

MS does hire people with less then that.

You're right, MS does. They also prospect people with no formal education in particular fields. One of my highschool buddies who went to University of Waterloo had 14 job offers from MS in his first year. He ended up joining them after he completed his PHD.

Hartford Insurers (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519215)

Has anyone ever noticed that the big Hartford insurers who have hundreds of millions of COBOL code never complain about shortages of talent? Even with all those people retiring or whatever?

See, they have training programs. You take an aptitude test (no degree required) and if you pass, you get into a training program. If you get through that you are then given a job and a raise. If you do well during the trial period, you're given another raise.

And it's not "code monkey" training either. It's design, algorithms, and a lot of the theory in a CS program.

The companies mentioned by parent - companies that are MUCH more profitable that the insurers - do not have those.

Re:2 year degree ya right. (1)

FuegoFuerte (247200) | about 3 months ago | (#47519259)

I worked there (as an FTE) for 4 years, and my only degree is an AA (2-year degree in Nothing of Value) from the local community college. Like most at MSFT, I started as an agency temp, showed them I knew my stuff, and then got hired full-time when they had a spot open up. Thankfully I got out of there and moved to a company that treats employees like people instead of cattle, but the lack of a 4-year or higher degree hasn't held back my career one bit.

Open Up Borders to Everyone! :-) (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47518951)

If we're going to open up our southern border, it would only be fair to allow unlimited H-1B visas. Or do the bleeding hearts care only when it doesn't affect their wages? ;-)

Re:Open Up Borders to Everyone! :-) (-1, Flamebait)

Tailhook (98486) | about 3 months ago | (#47519191)

Log in. Don't fear these hypocrites.

I think these anti-H1B visa folks are racists, just like the anti-immigrant knuckle draggers yelling about their `jerbs.'

Mix that into your granola and chew on it.

Re:Open Up Borders to Everyone! :-) (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | about 3 months ago | (#47519251)

is it racist for EVERY OTHER COUNTRY, when they look after their own, first; and then (maybe) give jobs to foreigners?

no, its not. its called 'common sense'; something that the US is lacking (and the parent poster, too, apparently)

Re:Open Up Borders to Everyone! :-) (1)

Tailhook (98486) | about 3 months ago | (#47519323)

Sigh. Poe's law once again.

I was illustrating the absurdity of racism charges against opponents of illegal immigration.

Re:Open Up Borders to Everyone! :-) (1)

darkwing_bmf (178021) | about 3 months ago | (#47519519)

Technically nativism or tribalism, although race can be a contributing factor.

Re:Open Up Borders to Everyone! :-) (2)

darkwing_bmf (178021) | about 3 months ago | (#47519361)

I'm for unlimited work visas. I'm afraid neither of Indians who want to live and work here nor Mexicans who want to live and work here. I see both as positive for this is the land of opportunity and freedom.

Re:Open Up Borders to Everyone! :-) (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about 3 months ago | (#47519559)

> If we're going to open up our southern border...

The problem with H1-Bs is not that they "feruhners". The problem with H1-Bs is that they are an underclass that's at the mercy of the company that imported them. They are even lower on the totem pole than underpaid undocumented Mexicans.

If you are an H1-B, ICE knows exactly where to find you if you get too "uppity".

Lies, lies, lies (1, Informative)

Cobol God (157835) | about 3 months ago | (#47518953)

I have years of experience in programming and management yet 99% of the time HR kicks out my resume because I do not have that BS in Comp Sci. Sorry I was self taught! I had a friend working at a bigger company that recommended me so I actually got an interview. The dept head liked me, got great responses in each of the interviews, then got an email from the dept head saying they filled with another candidate. Found out from my friend they found a guy (H1B) that they could work 6-7 days a week for less than half the salary they were discussing with me. Companies want CHEAP! I have been offered salaries under $18k a year for 6 day work weeks.

$18k a year for 6 day work weeks. (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 3 months ago | (#47519085)

You can make more working full time at min wage (in a non tech job) and if you hit OT you get payed more.

Who offered that shit pay?

Re:$18k a year for 6 day work weeks. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519515)

payed

Who offered that shit pay?

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't hire you since you don't know how to spell "paid" correctly.

Re:Lies, lies, lies (1)

redmid17 (1217076) | about 3 months ago | (#47519113)

I'm assuming none of those companies were trying to hire you for programming or management position.

Re:Lies, lies, lies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519123)

Companies want CHEAP!

So unionize... a union usually lobbies your interests.

I have been offered salaries under $18k a year for 6 day work weeks.

Btw, I work as an H-1B for more than 100k (+40% in bonuses), with a 40 hour work, where I more or less decide when I want to work.

Immigration isn't the problem, it's necessary if Sillicon Valley is to remain the biggest tech hub. The problem is people not getting payed properly and companies abusing the law. You need to lobby stronger enforcement of existing regulations. Personally I would suggest you do this through a union.

Re:Lies, lies, lies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519133)

Maybe I am just lucky but while I have four years of school, I only have a two year degree, in electronics. 20 years ago I dove in and started writing drivers, back then no school taught DOS/Unix/NT drivers. And I can use a schematic. I consider myself lucky, because the degree problem you mention only affects me around 30% of the time I estimate. Many companies with that requirement for a four year degree waive it. unless the company is going for lowest cost. Two years ago I was unemployed for 3 months, and that really opened my eyes to what is going on with the labor market and foreign VISAs.

Re:Lies, lies, lies (2)

rmdingler (1955220) | about 3 months ago | (#47519221)

You may indeed be lucky.

The brother-in-law waited tables for four years to get his two-year degree.

Now he's maybe the third best waiter at the local Steak House and they take most of his tax refund each year as his annual student loan payment.

4 year degrees have a lot theory & fluff / fil (1, Insightful)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 3 months ago | (#47518957)

4 year degrees have a lot theory with big sides of fluff / filler classes.

While tech schools and community college have teachers who have been / still are working in a real work place doing IT work.

the 4 years places not so much.

Re:4 year degrees have a lot theory & fluff / (4, Insightful)

Nemyst (1383049) | about 3 months ago | (#47519331)

They're not fluff. They're just not about getting a job, but about getting an education. If all you want is a degree, go to a technical school. You'll be happy. University is (or rather, should be) for people who want to learn and expand their knowledge, even in fields unrelated with what they hope to be doing once they graduate.

The "4 years places" you speak of so lowly may not have professors doing IT work, but they have highly knowledgeable researchers who have done stuff you wouldn't even be able to grasp for years, often decades. They're just not the people I'd ask about IT.

Re:4 year degrees have a lot theory & fluff / (2)

Em Adespoton (792954) | about 3 months ago | (#47519403)

4 year degrees have a lot theory with big sides of fluff / filler classes.

While tech schools and community college have teachers who have been / still are working in a real work place doing IT work.

the 4 years places not so much.

Can't say for today, but my 4 year school I went through in 6 years (co-op programs spread things out); and near the end, most of my seminars were taught by either domain experts or people taking a sabbatical from their day job to teach what they had learned.

The theory courses were what has kept me employed since... there's a difference between a real CS degree (being able to do the math and work the concepts) and being a code jockey. The second has a much lower glass ceiling.

Apprentices, sure (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47518963)

They get hired, stay here for, say, four years learning the tricks of the trade, and then what happens? They have to leave, and are banned from working in the US for an entire year. Talk about a brain drain.

Re:Apprentices, sure (1)

rmdingler (1955220) | about 3 months ago | (#47519153)

Sure.

But before you find yourself right in the middle of an empathy-fueled moment, remember how good four years at Microsoft looks on a resume in one's home country.

That's correct... right to the head of the line at the Call Center.

In other words......... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47518971)

Assuming that Biden could articulate or remember the bullshit that those CEOs told him, the governors and others in attendance learned practically nothing about how the current system actually works and how it is being abused. If there was another speaker, they should have opened up with "Forget everything you just heard. That's the myth from the CxO views, here's what is really going on...."

Quayle, Gore, Cheney, Biden (1)

rmdingler (1955220) | about 3 months ago | (#47519253)

What in the hell is the deal with Vice Presidents since Dan Quayle?

The only logical explanation is the Presidents are assured a statistically more likely term of service without an assassination attempt.

Surely, McCain didn't pick Palin for the Alaskan electoral college.

Liberal Propaganda (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519035)

I know, blast me as a troll. But honestly that is exactly how I classify this. We are exporting jobs and importing workers at an alarming rate.

Hahahaha (0)

DivineKnight (3763507) | about 3 months ago | (#47519045)

"Apprenticeships"...."two-year community college degree"....rofl. Good news everyone, your Software Engineering / Computer Science degrees were silently downgraded during the night to trade-school status, meaning you are now no better off that our Information Technology 'plumber' friends. That 4-year / 5-year bachelors of science / arts program you soldiered through? Doesn't matter anymore. But don't worry...our Electrical Engineering 'electrician' and Mechanical Engineering 'mechanics' friends will be joining you soon.

Re:Hahahaha (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about 3 months ago | (#47519115)

"Apprenticeships"...."two-year community college degree"....rofl. Good news everyone, your Software Engineering / Computer Science degrees were silently downgraded during the night to trade-school status, meaning you are now no better off that our Information Technology 'plumber' friends. That 4-year / 5-year bachelors of science / arts program you soldiered through? Doesn't matter anymore.

But don't worry...our Electrical Engineering 'electrician' and Mechanical Engineering 'mechanics' friends will be joining you soon.

A friend of mine was a microwave engineer for a company that made military communications and countermeasures gear. He could not convince his family that he did not work on ovens. I haven't checked with him in awhile -- maybe "microwave engineers" do work on ovens now.

Re:Hahahaha (1)

DivineKnight (3763507) | about 3 months ago | (#47519541)

Indeed. And a friend of mine, an Electrical Engineer (used to work for General Electric, supposedly in some military missile division) has been asked to replace fuses / etc. Though I must admit that with a score of 0 for my original comment, I've either reminded some people of the reality of what lurks out there, or they simply refuse to believe it can be like that.

Re:Hahahaha (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519659)

This attitude is the problem. Colleges and universities should be for people who want to expand their knowledge of the universe, not for people who just want jobs. And yet, they're being downgraded to poor imitations of trade schools so they can get more money from all the idiots who go to college/university just to get a degree.

There's nothing wrong with trade schools, and that needs to be made clear; people who want to focus on getting a job should go to them. What is wrong, though, is turning colleges and universities into half-assed trade schools where you get the worst of both worlds.

Obama picked this guy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519047)

That's should tell you something about his judgement.

Re: Obama picked this guy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519237)

Why don't you tell us what *you* think it tells us?

Apprentice? (2)

rfengr (910026) | about 3 months ago | (#47519061)

Well hell, if the need H1B for an apprentice (i.e. entry level with low skills), that goes to show the true intent.

Highly Skilled? (2)

phizi0n (1237812) | about 3 months ago | (#47519081)

Biden said he also learned from his talks with tech's top CEOs that 200,000 of the jobs that companies provide each year to highly-skilled H-1B visa holders could in fact be done by Americans with no more than a two-year community college degree.

How are they highly skilled if they could be replaced by 2 year community college degree holders? If any this just shows how much companies are abusing H1B's to get cheap foreign workers when they could be encouraging high school students to get these mythical 2 year community college degrees that are in such high demand.

Re:Highly Skilled? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | about 3 months ago | (#47519389)

That's a sop to allow corporations to bring in H1-B to fill our community colleges.

Probably about half of the students in my math classes in Seattle Central are not American. Or Canadian.

Nothing wrong with that, but it's not helping with retraining when you outsource the jobs overseas.

Supply and Demand (1)

callahan2211 (1963904) | about 3 months ago | (#47519143)

Companies want cheap labor, labor locked in with one company, and willing to work 60+ hours a week. Politicians are bought and paid for by business, thus H1-B visas and illegal immigrants are feeding labor pool to increase shareholder value and increase profits. It's not that complicated. If a politician truly cared about America and American workers, there would be no H1-B visas and no illegal immigration for low skilled workers. As a side note, Cezar Chavez was against illegal immigration because he knew that if there was a steady stream of low-skilled farm workers from Mexico, then that would dilute the power of his union. Companies would just hire from the very large pool created by illegal immigration. It is interesting that this administration had been talking about income inequality, but H1-B visas and illegal immigration lead to more income inequality not less. Again, not too complicated --- low supply higher wages, ample supply of labor lower wages.

Two years of community college heck just hire.... (1)

Mister Null (3688597) | about 3 months ago | (#47519269)

Two years of community college heck just hire the older workers that you let go because you thought they were too old.

Re:Two years of community college heck just hire.. (2)

callahan2211 (1963904) | about 3 months ago | (#47519311)

Or invest in training, although they won't do this because it is cheaper to layoff someone and replace them with a H1-B visa worker.

Why is it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519297)

Why is it that no one notices when an IT project goes way over budget and is a complete failure?
Like when we pay $500 million for a web site.
Where'd the money go?
Sometimes I wonder if we just hire stupid people with a language barrier to hide what's really going on.
Hmmm...

Replace our Politicians with H1-B hires (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519303)

Then the circle will be complete. Or at least the politicians will achieve self-awareness.

only talked to CEOs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519343)

20 CEO's but not one layed off person? only 18,000 from Microsoft alone.....

Same lies told about Canadian TFWP (3, Informative)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | about 3 months ago | (#47519369)

They said that they needed Temporary Foreign Workers and it would lead to full time jobs in Canada too.

And then the media got off their butts and figured out that it was really being used to provide cheap labour in Canadian restaurants instead of hiring local teens.

H1-B is a giant sucking sound of jobs being outsourced to India, and I don't mean native tribal lands here in North America.

Re:Same lies told about Canadian TFWP (1)

callahan2211 (1963904) | about 3 months ago | (#47519455)

Basically what I said in my post, but I got 0 Karma. I think karma function is: int karma(){ return rand(0,5);} I agree with you 100% btw. How long ago did this happen in Canada?

Re:Same lies told about Canadian TFWP (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | about 3 months ago | (#47519603)

Happened this summer, mostly May and June. Details in Vancouver Sun and Vancouver Province and Georgia Straight, and Globe and Mail.

Comrade Harper had to "suspend" the TFWP because it meant his Conservative Party was not going to be reelected, and was going to lose half it's seats.

These are the guys you voted for ... (0)

cascadingstylesheet (140919) | about 3 months ago | (#47519453)

... if you were hoping for friends of high paying, non-government, white collar jobs, perhaps Obama/Biden wasn't the smartest choice, my coder bros ...

Resources that you can abuse... (1)

mdelcorso (70934) | about 3 months ago | (#47519555)

The H1-B "requirement" that causes there to be no Americans "qualified" to take the job is the willingness to be abused.

They are made to work essentially 24/7, they get paid shit and they are treated like disposable napkins. The immorality of H1-B is absolutely disgusting.

You can sign a petition speak to your politicians (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519619)

Senator blasts Microsoft for hb1 push and firing 18000 workers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kedfVAbXNy0&sns=em
and here is a petition to stop the hb1
http://www.petition2congress.com/7637/abolish-h1b-visa-program/

So Biden met with some Lobbyists.. this is News? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519645)

just doens't qualify much thought.. little thought in, little thought out

Biden briefs governors. (1)

Culture20 (968837) | about 3 months ago | (#47519655)

I thought the verb was "pantsing". As in VP Biden pantsed the governors while yelling "it's going to happen! Just give in a enjoy it!"

Highly Skilled? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519759)

"the jobs that companies provide each year to highly-skilled H-1B visa holders could in fact be done by Americans with no more than a two-year community college degree."

Wow.. So is that what they regard "Highly Skilled" as in USA? Kind of explains a lot...

Isn't this tantamount to an Admission of Fraud? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47519929)

One of the requirements for an H1-b is that there is no qualified American to take the job. When these CEOs admit that these jobs can be done by Americans they are admitting to H1b fraud.

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