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CD Copy Protection Head Speaks

CmdrTaco posted more than 12 years ago | from the words-come-out-of-mouth dept.

Music 464

Vonatar sent us an interview with the guy who is running the company that designed the copy protection being used in CDs that nobody really buys, and preventing people from playing CDs in their computers and DVD players. The article also mentions the first lawsuit about the record label not providing notice on the package. Anyway check it out if you're interested. There are some interesting bits.

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464 comments

goddammit (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363697)

why doesn't xdmcp work? oh, and frist ps0t.

Re:goddammit (-1)

l33t j03 (222209) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363887)

Windows 2000 offers remote desktops. In stark contrast to xdmcp, the Microsoft service actually works.

Hmmm... (1)

phoon12 (244785) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363707)

How long does everyone think it'll take for someone to find a way around this?

Re:Hmmm... (1)

10100101 (524621) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363768)

3 days from release. No, on second thought, 3 seconds.

Re:Hmmm... (0, Redundant)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363822)


> How long does everyone think it'll take for someone to find a way around this?

I think so for a long, long time.

Re:Hmmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363825)

Cd player with optical out -> sound card with optical in perhaps?

Re:Hmmm... (1)

shpoffo (114124) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363897)

quite a while considering nobody gives a shit about the CDs being protected

-shpoffo

Whats to stop ? (0)

JohnHegarty (453016) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363725)

Whats to stop people using a cable between cd player and computer to make the mp3 ?

I don't think this is going to prove much of an problem for people , except those who pay for the music and want to listen on their computer....

I won't hurn the people who use mp3's at all... they be as happy as ever...

Re:Whats to stop ? (2)

rm-r (115254) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363763)

That wouldn't have quite the same audio quality (it should be more than good enough though with a decent cable considering the quality of mp3s), unless an optical cable could be used. I'm not sure if an optical cable would prevent the copy protection 'features' though.

Re:Whats to stop ? (1)

Big Boss (7354) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363841)

I doubt an optical cable would be affected by this. In the article he states that the only thing it changes is the directory on the CD. So you can't get a track list. But the songs are untouched. So if your CD or DVD player can play it and it has an optical out you should be able to connect to a soundcard optical in and record the bitstream. This would work fine since the optical out is just the digital data before it goes to the DAC. So there ya go, 1X CD ripping.

I honestly feel all this will be a moot point soon. Once the hackers get thier hands on this it will be cracked and they will distribute the programs to do it. Though they probably won't be able to take credit for it because of DMCA if they are in the US.

Re:Whats to stop ? (2)

frknfrk (127417) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363868)

if they are in the US

i think dmitri would tell you that this is not a US only problem. ask the boy who was arrested in Europe for his part with the DVD decryption debacle if US corporations can't screw up your life if they feel like it, no matter where you are.

-sam

Re:Whats to stop ? (2)

macsforever2001 (32278) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363904)

I'm not sure if an optical cable would prevent the copy protection 'features' though.

Don't worry, it can't. All I have to do is feed the optical cable into the optical in on my (expensive) sound card and copy the input sound stream. I'd have to mark the tracks myself like I already do with LPs though. So while it would be a pain, like MP3ing my old vinyl is today, it is certainly copyable.

TRoLLaXoR's problems... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363727)

You notice that TRoLLaXoR is not posting any more on these threads. This is because he has been admitted to rehab to help him get over a chronic masturbation habit. In the recent weeks he has lost his house, gotten fired from his job, and had his credit card revoked because of this sad addiction. Gaysex.com wouldn't even take his money anymore because of fear of liability issues. Friends (and former lovers) from Geekazoid held an intervention last night to get him the help he needs so badly.

His long-time companion, Motherfuckin' Spork, sent me the sad news late this afternoon. TRoLLaXoR finally admitted he had a problem. He has had problems posting because he can no longer get his hand out of a balled fist. Motherfuckin' Spork also said he was quite peeved because TRoLLaXoR kept calling his right hand "Eric," perhaps because of his lasting fixation on the private life of Eric Raymond.

At some point and time, TRoLLaXoR has had a crush on every member of the Slashdot staff. When they could not longer take the constant harassment and notes on their cars, they finally got court orders put in place. But it couldn't stop him from making up horrible stories and posting in each and every slashdot thread. TRoLLaXoR was especially hurt by the rejection of Raymond, who turned him down flat when asked if he would like to go on a date to the local Jack in the Box.

This isn't the first time that TRoLLaXoR has been in rehab, all for various sexual additions and psychological problems that cause him to get fixated on the sexual habits of others. He has also been hospitalized on a number of occasions for dehydration... apparently because he spilled way too much of his precious bodily fluids. He is well known by local E.R. staff, and there is even a collection of items removed from forced anal trauma.

Let us all pray for TRoLLaXor, because if he can fall can we be far behind?

Re:TRoLLaXoR's problems... (-1, Offtopic)

Guns n' Roses Troll (207208) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363773)

I will include him in my bedtime prayers to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I love the prayer closet.

Re:TRoLLaXoR's problems... (-1)

cyborg_monkey (150790) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363785)

You spelled Geekizoid incorrectly, moron.

Re:TRoLLaXoR's problems... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363803)

Gee thanks for the bug report.. that'll be fixed on the next version.

That's why open source works!

(Actually.. I will probably change it so that cyborg monkey is the S.O... that works SOOOO much better.)

Re:TRoLLaXoR's problems... (-1)

TRoLLaXoR (181585) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363869)

aahhhhh

post more, and post often

Fair use is disappearing (4, Insightful)

Red Aardvark House (523181) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363733)

What it's meant to do is provide a speed bump to people who don't steal things, and wish to use them in the parameters that are suggested by the artists

But what about the average Joe who want's to rip the CD for use on the computer, or a portable MP3 player? These are fair-use protected, as long as you do not distribute.

And most average Joes lack the technical know-how to circumvent the protection, and even that is illegal under the DMCA.

Copy protection is stripping away the last bits of fair use left. They're punishing all users for the actions of some.

Most people do not like to lose their rights, even something as small as fair use.

Re:Fair use is disappearing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363824)

You are wrong: Copy protection is stripping away the last bits of fair use legally.

Re:Fair use is disappearing (1)

Red Aardvark House (523181) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363853)

Stripping away fair use legally or not legally does not make it right.

The legality of the method was not in question, but rather the crux of the peroblem. The copyright industry does have force of law behind them.

Fair use wasn't even law, merely doctrine or guildelines.

Re:Fair use is disappearing (1)

arkanes (521690) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363912)

Not quite true. If the record company tells you that you can't copy it for fair use, you can safely ignore them, because your right to fair use is protected. HOWEVER, there seems to be now law from them making it REALLY HARD to exercise your right to fair use. I'm not sure how the DMCA would apply here, since it does specifically authorize fair use, but I rather expect it'd be treated the same as DeCSS - the court will assume it's being used for pirating and shut it down.

Hackers (0)

10100101 (524621) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363734)

>> Only hackers will attempt to circumvent the technology in order to prove that it can be done. We're not designing the technology for them. Ever heard of 'script kiddies'?

but i only use my cdrom drive! (1)

mydigitalself (472203) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363735)

um...
the audio out of my soundcard goes into my uberamp and that is basically my cd player! so what, now i can't play cd's anymore? also, when i travel i take cd's on the plane with me and play them on my notebook. now i can't do that either? i think that's just dumb!

Re:but i only use my cdrom drive! (1)

Mr. Piccolo (18045) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363827)

If you have an "uberamp", what are you running a cheapo soundcard into it for to play CDs?

Do yourself a favor and get a REAL uberCD player to go with that uberamp of yours. Your ears will thank you.

Re:but i only use my cdrom drive! (1)

mydigitalself (472203) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363848)

well i enjoy music, but its more for in the background when i have guests around and stuff. my uberamp is for my uberdvd player and my ubertv.

just because i'm not an audiophile doesn't mean i should have to buy an ubercdplayer to listen to music!

Signed Contracts (1)

jdevons (233314) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363737)

I wish that they would at least require me to sign a contract to listen to a CD. Then I would at least know what I was getting myself into...

Re:Signed Contracts (1)

Red Aardvark House (523181) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363783)

Being that mass-distributed music is becoming more like computer software, it would not be suprising to EULA's on CD's.

Re:Signed Contracts (1)

Tweeked Dustrabbit (522570) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363811)

eula's.....those actually do something? people who have no problem w/ breaking "copywright laws" will have no problem breaking an unsigned "contract"

They admit it's not perfect (3, Insightful)

JMan1865 (223387) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363739)

It makes no sense - they guy SAYS that it can be broken - but it is meant to deter "casual copying". A bit like wrapping a chain around a bike without really locking it - to deter the "casual bike thief". But they bring up the DMCA - so until that gets thrown out, they have a good legal loophole with which they can go after anyone who manages to rip their CD's.

And their big explanation is that the song title and artist don't show up, so therefore people can't copy them? Hell, I was copying CD's long before programs had internet lookup of CD's - I would rip the track - then label it...what a novel concept...

Re:They admit it's not perfect (4, Informative)

mmacdona86 (524915) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363806)

It's not uncopyable because the song title and artist don't show up. It's uncopyable because the track directory information is unavailable (or odd-looking) to the computer so the computer does not think it is an audio CD. The question is if this can be got around in the player software or only by changing the CD-ROM firmware.

Re:They admit it's not perfect (1)

WinterSolstice (223271) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363865)

>The question is if this can be got around in the player software (snip)


Don't be silly. Of course it can. The only question is will this stuff be around long enough to bother? I sense a BetaMax product here...


Besides, how much is the RIAA willing to pay? This could well become a class action suit in the future.


-WS

Re:They admit it's not perfect (2, Insightful)

grahamm (8844) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363875)

If the track directory information is not readable, does this not also make the CD unplayable in a computer CD drive?

Gee... (2, Insightful)

Drizzten (459420) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363740)

"The 53-year-old former on-air radio personality heads Phoenix-based SunnComm, one of dozens of digital rights management companies aiming to thwart would-be pirates from distributing copyrighted material over the Web."

...nice to forget about those of us who want to backup our CDs. I guess it doesn't bother this guy when his collection gets scratched over the years and slowly become unplayable.

Re:Gee... (1)

Johnny5000 (451029) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363835)

"...nice to forget about those of us who want to backup our CDs. I guess it doesn't bother this guy when his collection gets scratched over the years and slowly become unplayable."

Write him a nice letter in a few years, and enclose your a list of your scratched CDs.

"Thank you for making it impossible for me to make backup copies of my CDs. As a result, I am sure you wont mind replacing the ones that have become scratched over the years."

Or just sue him.

-J5K

That is what they want (1)

jhines (82154) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363903)

The record companies WANT media that wears out, it forces you to buy another copy of the music you want.

DMCA again.. (0)

Quaryon (93318) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363741)

"So if someone breaks your anti-copying technology, are you going to sue?
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act prohibits users from circumventing copy protection. It's now a crime in America to do that. Having said that, it's certainly up to the record companies to decide how they're going to manage hackers that circumvent the technology in the future. "

I may be naive but I was under the impression that if you've broken the DMCA the record companies no longer have any say in how you are prosecuted - isn't this what happened to Dmitry?

Q.

no DVD (2, Insightful)

spav (36318) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363744)

With DVD players becoming standard fare, how long do you think this practice will last? I only have a DVD player (in the computer and actual standalone unit) so that means that I'm screwed if I actually want to buy a CD anymore. Guess that means I'll have to turn on-line to find music, and we're right back where we started from. These record execs don't seem to understand emerging technology at all.

Who? (-1)

Guns n' Roses Troll (207208) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363745)

Who is Lenin Cohen and why does Kurt Cobain want him in the afterworld?

Re:Who? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363784)

God damn it!

Leonard Cohen, you fuckhead!

And ANY plane of existance would be happy to have him...

Re:Who? (-1, Offtopic)

Guns n' Roses Troll (207208) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363812)

Oh. Well you still didn't tell me who he is.

Re:Who? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363829)

look here [yahoo.com]

Important Stuff:

Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
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Re:Who? (-1)

n3r0.m4dski11z (447312) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363839)

leornard cohen is a poet/ recording artist. afterworld is a movie that is comming out soon IMDB [imdb.com] about kurt cobain

"gimme leonard cohen afterworld so i can sigh eternally" is a referce to how kurt feels about reading leonard cohen

so there mr troll esplained!

Go Vinyl! (4, Funny)

quakeslut (107512) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363747)

Your records will still be playable long after your CD's have become obsolete.

Re:Go Vinyl! (1)

Tweeked Dustrabbit (522570) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363860)

whats a record *grin*

Re:Go Vinyl! (2)

ncc74656 (45571) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363896)

Your records will still be playable long after your CD's have become obsolete.
The needle doesn't track too well when you're driving, though. Also, you can't burn your own records (at least I haven't seen any "Vinyl-Recordable" or "Vinyl-ReWritable" drives for sale lately).

(FWIW, I usually don't play CDs in the car either...tape is good enough, is easier to handle, and you don't have to worry about scratching it.)

Artists' choice (5, Insightful)

jedwards (135260) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363750)

What it's meant to do is provide a speed bump to people who don't steal things, and wish to use them in the parameters that are suggested by the artists

Hands up those who believe the artist gets a say in whether their CDs are rendered unusable or not?

Their whole "we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music" argument is nonsense; it doesn't benefit them.

Re:Artists' choice (2, Insightful)

SlashDread (38969) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363871)

""Their whole "we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music" argument is nonsense; it doesn't benefit them'.""

Devils argument: By reducing theft, they can lower prices, leading to happier real customers.

Gr /Dread

Quick Question... (3, Interesting)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363752)

... if it doesn't work on your computer, can't you just take it back to the store and say "it doesn't work, I want to exchange it"?

Re:Quick Question... (3, Interesting)

Shadow99_1 (86250) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363832)

Sadly no... I have worked (recently) for a store who's policy is they do not except CD's back once opened... Hence If you open the CD, try it out on your PC & it doesn't work tough. Once you have purchased it, you own the CD & they don't want it back. You can't exchange, you can't return... You are screwed.

Re:Quick Question... (1)

turbine216 (458014) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363872)

of course you can...i've never heard of ANY store that won't take a CD back and exchange it for the same title.


However, exchanging the CD isn't going to help if you're just getting the same thing in return.

Re:Quick Question... (3, Insightful)

cyberdonny (46462) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363907)

However, exchanging the CD isn't going to help if you're just getting the same thing in return.

It does help. Are you really thinking that the store is trying to sell the opened copy to somebody else? No way: either they are going to eat the losses, or they send it back to the manufacturer (...who eats the loss). Bottom line: you're costing the store real money, which will act as a disincentive not to store such CD's. Eventually some manager somewhere gets the message and this new format hopefully dies a well-deserved death.

Re:Quick Question... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363877)

If everyone buys them and brings them back asking for a refund then the record companies will be stuck with a whole bunch of unwrapped CD's that they can't resell at full price. They will eventually have to start marking these non-standard CD's So people don't take them home and unwrap them.

When good muslims go bad.. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363755)

Our precious slashdot trolls scream out for vengeance:

1. Kill all Camel Jockeys.
2. Kill all Mohammedans.
3. Kill all Dune Coons.
4. Kill all Rag Heads.
5. Kill all Towelheads.
6. Kill all Arabs.
7. Kill all Camel Rooters.
8. Kill all Osama Bin Laden supporters.

Nuke their countries to hell.
Nuke them again.
Death to Islam.

I piss on Mecca. I wipe my ass with the Koran. I spit upon Mohammed.

Re:When good muslims go bad.. (0, Offtopic)

Tweeked Dustrabbit (522570) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363878)

all ironic since they dont care anything about you....time to step back and think

Interesting....how does it work? (5, Interesting)

melquiades (314628) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363758)

From the article, it sounds like they do allow some ripping:

Ours is the only copy-protection scheme that doesn't violate fair-use rights...We allow (people) to make copies for their own personal use: for their computer, for their compilation disc and for their MP3 player, so they can have portable use of their music. The only fair use that's left--and it's not fair use at all--is the "fair use" of sending thousands of copies to file-sharing services to be copied hundreds of thousands or millions of times.

I'd like more detail on this. The only way I can imagine them accomplishing what they desribe is having some proprietary app "unlock" the CD. That, of course, would limit the fair use of playing the CD on your favorite non-standard OS. But I'm only guessing.

Does anybody know what their technology actually does? How does is copy protect if you can download (presumably unprotected) MP3s to your portable player?

Re:Interesting....how does it work? (5, Informative)

Reality Master 101 (179095) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363799)

Based on their first CD that they tested, I think they allow you to download protected digital copies off their server, provided you have the CD. The article also mentions that you can make six copies of the music.

While I don't necessarily like this technique, I have to admit that it at least tries to recognize fair use rights.

Also, one of things the lawsuit was over was requiring registration to download the music.

Isn't that MP3.com all over again? (2)

melquiades (314628) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363855)

If you're right about how it works, and if record labels go for this scheme, it would be painfully ironic ... since what you're describing is almost exactly what they tried to sue mp3.com out of existence for doing.

Their legal arguments notwithstanding, it seems to me that labels don't actually object to the new mp3.com/napster/etc. technologies at all; they just want to go on owning everything in sight.

Re:Interesting....how does it work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363910)

What if I don't have internet access on the computer I want to listen to the music on? (Hard to imagine here, where everyone probably has home networks and wireless and whatnot, but I don't have internet on all of my computers.)

What if I don't have a high-speed connection?

What if they use this to get people to accept retricted CDs, and then they stop providing downloads?

What if they provide the music in a format that further restricts my usage of it? (For example, restricting it to the PC I downloaded it with, or counting the number of times I transfer it to a portable device.)

Re:Interesting....how does it work? (1)

Coolumbus (200176) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363870)

I don't get it either. On the first page he says:

If you give people what they want with respect to their ability to copy the music in ways that they think is reasonable, they will not ever attempt to circumvent the technology. Only hackers will attempt to circumvent the technology in order to prove that it can be done. We're not designing the technology for them.

So, he can't be talking of mp3s then, since i would think that not only hackers find making mp3 files from thir cds both resasonable and convenient. And how would the copy protection know what thereafter happends to the mp3-files?

Re:Interesting....how does it work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363911)

I had a look at their website (which is an unbearable pile of flash), and this is what I'm guessing...

Firstly, note that this is different from Macrovision's system (which adds lots of noise that CD players will correct). I haven't worked out how it protects the CD, but I get the impression that it does have a proprietary app. They talk about a 'rich multimedia experiece' when you put the CD in a PC.

Of course, this means that it clearly is circumventable (as the app can circumvent it), but that assuming this guy accepts that playing a CD in a computer is fair use, it may be legaly circumventable in Linux.

Now this I don't get...... (1)

linuxrunner (225041) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363767)

In the article he said:


The technology that we sell is a padlock to music. If you have a lock cutter, a bolt cutter, you can cut that padlock off. If you're determined to steal the music, the music can be stolen. Our technology is not thief proof. What it's meant to do is provide a speed bump to people who don't steal things, and wish to use them in the parameters that are suggested by the artists...

Ok, cd protection as a speedbump for people who don't steal? Does that make any sense? I doesn't to me!
I mean, if you are only buying cd's and listening to them, then what is the speed bump for? Those people are not ripping and sharing the cds...
And their so-called-protection is to prevent people from ripping the cd's anyways... Sounds like a contradiction to me... I just don't get it.

I'm still waiting for the RIAA and MPAA to go after the software and hardware makers next... I mean, they must know that their products are being used for illegal purposes, so they must be a fault too...

Just wait, it will happen.

Linuxrunner

Watermarked MP3s? (1)

mmacdona86 (524915) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363769)

Are the MP3s that they let users download watermarked? Will they actually go after a user if "their" watermarked MP3 showed up in a file-sharing service? Or is just the threat important?

Huh? (5, Interesting)

c_monster (124327) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363774)

"From our standpoint, we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music... not for the 1 percent who are going to take the lock cutters and cut the lock off and steal music in an unauthorized way."

If I'm hearing this right, he's basically saying, "Our product doesn't keep people from stealing the music, it just causes hassles for folks who buy music and want to listen to it on their computers."

Where's the reason in that? Who exactly is getting protected here?

~chris

Flame-On (3, Funny)

CyberGarp (242942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363777)

"Still, consumers have not warmed up to the idea of copy-protected CDs."

Hmmmm. I thought we were flaming this idea pretty heavy. Need to switch to Thermite.

easy solution (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363779)

just boycott the music industry. music is a luxury; we won't die without it. go to concerts if you have to get a music fix.

Huh? (2, Insightful)

PinkStainlessTail (469560) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363781)

Q: Do you believe that copy-protection schemes violate fair-use rights?
A:Ours is the only copy-protection scheme that doesn't violate fair-use rights...We allow (people) to make copies for their own personal use: for their computer, for their compilation disc and for their MP3 player, so they can have portable use of their music. The only fair use that's left--and it's not fair use at all--is the "fair use" of sending thousands of copies to file-sharing services to be copied hundreds of thousands or millions of times. That's the only use we've limited and so that's not fair use; it's certainly not fair to the artist.


I'm confused: I can play this on a PC, I can rip it, I can make MP3s. How does the protection scheme actually stop copying? Did I miss something?

Holy Shit (4, Funny)

BiggestPOS (139071) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363782)

: The technology that we sell is a padlock to music. If you have a lock cutter, a bolt cutter, you can cut that padlock off. If you're determined to steal the music, the music can be stolen. Our technology is not thief proof. What it's meant to do is provide a speed bump to people who don't steal things, and wish to use them in the parameters that are suggested by the artists...If you give people what they want with respect to their ability to copy the music in ways that they think is reasonable, they will not ever attempt to circumvent the technology. Only hackers will attempt to circumvent the technology in order to prove that it can be done. We're not designing the technology for them.

Hes fucking kidding, right? The manner suggested by the artist? So when we listen to a Prince CD we have to wear womens clothing?

Better Mice... (1)

ShelbyCobra (134614) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363790)

As far as I can tell, there only needs to be one copy made from a CD in order to have the data distributed widely. A better mousetrap will lead to a better mouse. This really makes any attempt to make copying impossible a very futile effort.

The only way I can see a CD not being copied is if it is music that no one at all wants to hear.

Re:Better Mice... (1)

Hormonal (304038) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363866)

I don't have a Morpheus/Napster/your favorite Peer-To-Peer app install on this machine, but I'm pretty sure that if I did a search for "Yoko Ono", I'd turn something up.

It appears that your theory about CD's containing music noone wants to hear not being copied is flawed. Perhaps there's a deaf person out there just ripping and posting random CDs?

The sad truth is... (5, Insightful)

Monthenor (42511) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363792)

...that this guy has fallen into the same trap that most of the media has recently. They believe that the standard model of CD, hard-copy distribution is the ONLY model, and the model that artists want. He seems to take it as given that CDs are the divinely-ordained format for music, that the evolution of players has come to an end.

I hope he goes bankrupt, but not necessarily because he's trying to protect music. It's because he's protecting CDs.

I, of course, used a few p2p music sharers in my day, but you know what? I've filled out everything I want on my playlist, and aside from must-have stuff like the new Cake album, it doesn't change much anymore. On top of that, I bought more CDs after getting Napster than before...it's not a matter of already having the album for me, it's a matter of finding an ENTIRE ALBUM OF GOOD SONGS. If the record labels didn't rush out half-finished crap and charge almost $20 for it, I'd buy lots more CDs...

Limiting copies probably isn't the answer... (2, Insightful)

daoine (123140) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363797)

The article specifically adresses the fair use clause, and how SunComm belives that they have addressed the issue of fair use by limiting the number of copies made.

I think this is going to run them into the ground just as the Ebook. They just made the number higher -- by saying you can make six copies instead of two. Granted, it will take longer for people to screw up their machines to run out of their six copies, but the hard limit on the number of copies is always going to run into the same problem -- too low and the consumer is angry, too high and the consumer will give said copies away just to stick it to the industry.

The greater issue -- it's likely that technology can not solve this problem reasonably. Furthermore, the DCMA is not enforcable -- they are going to use it in select cases to scare people into abiding by it. Perhaps, the recording industry should look to create a culture where *gasp* neither the performer nor the consumer feels like they are getting screwed over.

CD-DA disk logo compliance? (5, Interesting)

Jburkholder (28127) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363807)

Still an unanswered question: do these 'copy protected' CDs still conform to IEC 908 and can they be legally marked with the compact disc digital audio emblem [gnscd.com] ?

Most of the comments are wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363809)

Most of you are wrong. You can play the cd's in your DVD drive, you can play them in your computer, you can use windows cd player if you really want.

YOU CANT READ THE DIRECTORY STRUCTURE. this is not about not letting you play them, its about not letting you digitally rip the files. you can still however rip them in analog (1x record)

play them in your sony walkman, or play them in your sony vaio dvd drive.... its all the same.

Ha. (2)

TheSHAD0W (258774) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363810)

Y'know, when I heard Michael Jackson's new single was being distributed on a copy protected CD, I immediately hit the Gnutella net looking for pirated copies. Of course I found several dozen.

I just took another look; it is now several hundred.

CD copy protection won't help prevent music piracy; a few people will always be able to break the protection, and everyone else will download from them. The only people this will inconvenience are the poor schlubs who only want to listen to the song on their Rio players.

Re:Ha. (1)

Jburkholder (28127) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363895)

"SunnComm said the leaked songs did not come from a cracked CD but were likely copied from an unprotected set of 2,000 CDs released in Australia."

Seems like this was a deliberate test to see how long it would take for a limited number of unprotected CDs to get ripped and put on the net. Nice convenient false argument, though. How can they really prove that the copies on the net came from Australia and not cracked CDs?

What about making mix cd's (1)

kanotspell (520779) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363813)

It really bugs me that they want to deny my right to make a mix CD. Is that no longer a right? A lot of people legaly (I would think) make mix CD's of their favorite songs but now they will be denied that right or criminalized for even trying.

Stupid protection scheme (1)

cculianu (183926) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363819)

The protection scheme is stupid. It just slickly breaks the music CD standard, thus confusing some cd programs. Big deal.

I think all someone has to do is read the cd-rom in raw mode and just read all 1152 bytes (or whatever it is) in a full, 'uncooked' sector and you will be able to copy these cd's

"that no one will buy" (2)

garcia (6573) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363826)

yet.

what happens when we don't have a fucking choice? Fair-use seems to be on the way out. What are we going to do when it is all gone?

:( we are going to be forced to buy this shit. Then what do we do?

I have a question. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363828)

I have a friend that always buys cd's. This same friend of mine is also an avid video game collector. He does not own a CD player stereo unit, he just plays his cd's on his Playstation. Can he play copy protected cd's on his playstation?

New CD players (1)

BaltoA (468156) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363831)

It's my understanding that the CDs will work in regular CD player, but not computer CD players because the computer CD players are build to a different standard. (The regular CD players can ignore the idiosyncrasies that are present on the 'protected' CD and play the music, but the computer CD drivers cannot).

So, how long before CD drive makers market a CD drive that meets both standards (and will read the protected disk)?

And... if a CD driver maker does this, will that break the DCMA's rules?

Re:New CD players (1)

10100101 (524621) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363837)

...And when will someone make a program to crack this and upload that to a p2p share network?

Music Industy is now using FUD!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363833)

Music Industry is getting everyone up tight..
Look at all these articles and scare tactics they are putting at us. FUD i tell you!!!

CDs nobody really buys? (3, Insightful)

sting3r (519844) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363838)

the company that designed the copy protection being used in CDs that nobody really buys

Don't let this lull you into a false sense of complacency. It's just being beta tested right now (except for Universal Music). When not enough people complain anymore about not being able to play CDs on their computers (and they will give up soon), some sort of copy protection will show up on every CD ever manufactured.

On the plus side, copy protection is always an arms race and the hackers have the upper hand. Remember when Copy II Plus came out for the Apple II and it could break every single media-based copyprotect scheme that existed at the time? There is still hope.

-sting3r

Re:CDs nobody really buys? (2)

gorilla (36491) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363906)

And copy protection on computers was a much easier deal, because you didn't have to maintain compatability with billions of existing non-programmable devices.

Re:CDs nobody really buys? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363913)

It is all very nice, but i for once will demand the replacement of any music CD that don't play on my CD.

Worthless? (5, Insightful)

supabeast! (84658) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363843)

From the interview -

"From our standpoint, we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music but instead (want to) use it for whatever means--for whatever personal use that's allowed by the artist and the record label. The software was designed for those people, not for the 1 percent who are going to take the lock cutters and cut the lock off and steal music in an unauthorized way."

So this software is designed to reign in the people who do not "steal" the music anyway? Does that not make this method of "cooy protection" pointless? It seems to me that this guy just admitted his company is ripping off record companies by selling them copy protection schemes that are really no good.

99 percent? (2)

frknfrk (127417) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363849)

the article claims that the software is for the 99 percent of the customers which aren't 'hackers'. i would guess that more than 1 percent of the customers would try to pay the CD in a CD-ROM or DVD, etc. although it's hard for me to think about such things, as almost everyone i know has a computer.

but, having said that, even my parents use their computer to play CDs now. my wife's grandparents use their computer to play CDs. these are not 'hackers'.

-sam

Whatever means??? (1)

Myrv (305480) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363854)


From our standpoint, we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want
to steal the music but instead (want to) use it for whatever means

But this doesn't jive with my father who wants to listen to his music on his computer while surfing the net or my mother who wants to listen to it on her MP3 player. The reason someone buys music is to listen to it. Whether that's on a computer or a portable player shouldn't matter. SunnComms protection scheme definitely does not allow the user to listen to the music with whatever means they want. They know this and they are simply lying to the general public to protect their own image.

Simplistic windows "userland" explanation (1)

cr@ckwhore (165454) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363859)

<p><i>For instance, the names of the tracks do not appear on a computer's screen, and as a result, the music cannot be ripped and transferred to a desktop.</i></p>
<p>I really love these simplistic answers, dumbed down so low that a moron could understand it. Right now, I can't recall a time that I've "transferred music to my desktop", especially when the names of the tracks appear on my screen.</p>
<p>Somebody please get rid of this idiot.</p>

Re:Simplistic windows "userland" explanation (1)

cr@ckwhore (165454) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363884)

fscking extrans!! My stupid mouse wheel slipped right before hitting the 'submit' button... sorry.

Why are we upset with this guy? (2, Interesting)

weez75 (34298) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363861)

This guy has a job which is to provide a service to companies. Obviously there is a demand for this type of service. He didn't invent the demand, he merely responded. It sounds to me that he's just doing what economics demand--meet needs.

We rub our greedy little hands and scheme how we can get around this new tool when what we should be doing is pressuring record companies who are demanding this type of protection. We should be economically sanctioning the companies that participate in creating rules that shackle fair-use. Don't buy the Michael Jackson album that has the protection (as if we would)...

What labels use this? (1)

dave-fu (86011) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363874)

The article doesn't name names.
I need to know who's going on my shitlist for future purchases. As an aside plea, please see to it that nothing that Bjork releases is ever encumbered by such inane roadblocks to me enjoying music that I purchase on my stereo just because I use a DVD player and someone else might want to make themself a copy of music that they actually own for their personal use, and someone else might want to take a copy of this music and distribute it to the world. The US has long since outlawed cruel and unusual punishment, and that would certainly fit it.
Find and punish criminals, not legitimate paying consumers.

My experiences with "copy protection" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2363881)

'bout a year and a half ago, I bought a copy of Diablo-2. It was copy protected.

The copy protection caused data-reads to be corrupted a significant portion of the time. Doing:

% repeat 20 cksum /cdrom/foo.file

Would report random numbers about half the time. None of my cdrom drives would read the data 100% accurately.

I returned the game to the store over 5 times, thinking I had a bad disk, or there was a bad run of disks.

Eventually I learned it was "copy protection".

To use the game, I had to make 2 copies of the disk: One without the copy protection, to install the files. And one with the copy protection, to activate the game, in case the original master disk should break.

Last xmas, I bought copies of this game for some friends. For each copy I bought, I had to make 2 more copies, so the recepient could use it christmas day...

What sort of a half-assed broken bullshit system is it that REQUIRES you to produce 2 copies of a cd BEFORE you can use it, all in the name of "copy protection"?

Blizzard is now pretty damn high on my shit list. Warcraft 3 would have to be truly awesome for me to even look at dealing with this crap again!

so many hackers (1)

Coward Anonymous (110649) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363883)

"What it's meant to do is provide a speed bump to people who don't steal things, and wish to use them in the parameters that are suggested by the artists... Only hackers will attempt to circumvent the technology in order to prove that it can be done. We're not designing the technology for them."

I don't know, from looking at Napster in its heyday it seems NO ONE likes those "parameters" and that there are millions and millions of thieving evil hackers. In fact, their entire customer base...

I think the last question is the key. They are doing the equivalent of ROT-13 to qualify for DMCA protection. From there on, the federal government enforces things. Sad...

How does this NOT violate fair use? (1)

customs (236182) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363890)

[quote]
Ours is the only copy-protection scheme that doesn't violate fair-use rights...We allow (people) to make copies for their own personal use: for their computer, for their compilation disc and for their MP3 player, so they can have portable use of their music.
[/quote]

Explain to me how this can be done if you can't even read it through the comp. Unless of course, you go all out and record the audio, etc etc.

/adam

Re:How does this NOT violate fair use? (1)

10100101 (524621) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363898)

Whatever it is that ther do, someone will reverse engeneer it soon...

what about digital DJ's (1)

SGDarkKnight (253157) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363900)

I know I've set up a few systems for some of the clubs around my area that use computer systems to handle all thier dj'ing. I know from experience that many clubs in major cities are starting to do this as well; mostly because it helps preserve the orignal cd's from becomming scratched and un-usable. Now if the most of the dance, hip-hop and r&b artists decide to go along with this style of copy protection, then the dance clubs will be out on thier ass. I wonder what they will decide to do (both club owners and artists trying to sell thier cds)?

Ok, so what's the point? (5, Insightful)

Lxy (80823) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363902)

A: The technology that we sell is a padlock to music. If you have a lock cutter, a bolt cutter, you can cut that padlock off. If you're determined to steal the music, the music can be stolen. Our technology is not thief proof.

Umm... so let me get this straight. Those who want fair use (downloading it to their Rio, whatever) can't have it. Those are determined to pirate the music pull out their bit cutters and rip the CD. So basically, you've accomplished the exact opposite.. fair use is discouraged, but piracy is still possible. I think somebody missed the point.

This guy needs a chastity belt with a padlock (5, Insightful)

sg3000 (87992) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363909)

I love the quote from the article:

The technology that we sell is a padlock to music. If you have a lock cutter, a bolt cutter, you can cut that padlock off. If you're determined to steal the music, the music can be stolen. Our technology is not thief proof.

So this guy is selling a technology that won't stop thieves, but it will stop users from legitimately copying music from their CDs to their computer hard drives? It sounds like they're tacitly admitting that they're using the guise of "piracy protection" to do what they really want. That is to make music more like software -- eventually if you want to play it in your car and your home stereo, buy two copies of the CD!

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to be able to load software onto your computer:
* I have a FireWire hard drive that I use to store all my music, and it's available to all my computers (including across my AirPort wireless network)
* Even within my house, having a hard drive with random access to my entire collection is better than some slow CD jukebox with a crappy UI
* I've had CDs go bad that can't be read (older ones with a lot of paint on them) or have gotten scratched. A copy of the songs on a hard drive provide protection against that degradation
* When I'm travelling, I don't want to bring audio CDs with me. It's easier just have songs on the hard drive

Simply put, I will not buy any CDs that can't be read on my computer -- normally. Some silly copy protection scheme that calls up Microsoft to confirm my credit card receipt every time I want listen to a song doesn't count.

Okay, so how does this one work? (1)

Dr. Manhattan (29720) | more than 12 years ago | (#2363915)

The article says "SunnComm embeds a technology, called MediaCloq, into a CD to make the CD's directory structure invisible so it cannot be read by a personal computer." Later, however, there's the statement: "So they can make six copies; as long as their disc is in the tray of their computer, they can make those copies...

It appears [stereophile.com] that they also have some kind of downloadable music format; the player for it apparently checks to see if the CD is present. Their website [sunncomm.com] is maddeningly vague (understandably) and, to add insult to injury, it requires Flash. But there's a mention of using "Microsoft's DRM technology for music downloads".

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