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Oracle Hasn't Killed Java -- But There's Still Time

Unknown Lamer posted about a month ago | from the common-lisp-rising dept.

Java 371

snydeq (1272828) writes Java core has stagnated, Java EE is dead, and Spring is over, but the JVM marches on. C'mon Oracle, where are the big ideas? asks Andrew C. Oliver. 'I don't think Oracle knows how to create markets. It knows how to destroy them and create a product out of them, but it somehow failed to do that with Java. I think Java will have a long, long tail, but the days are numbered for it being anything more than a runtime and a language with a huge install base. I don't see Oracle stepping up to the plate to offer the kind of leadership that is needed. It just isn't who Oracle is. Instead, Oracle will sue some more people, do some more shortsighted and self-defeating things, then quietly fade into runtime maintainer before IBM, Red Hat, et al. pick up the slack independently. That's started to happen anyhow.'

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Nobody kills Java (1, Insightful)

Sla$hPot (1189603) | about a month ago | (#47630341)

Quote me on it in twenty years!

Re:Nobody kills Java (4, Insightful)

bobbied (2522392) | about a month ago | (#47630491)

Hey, COBOL still lives... Sorta

Re:Nobody kills Java (1)

Sla$hPot (1189603) | about a month ago | (#47630573)

Yep and for one reason, one word. Banks.
And they love Java. So Java stays.
Java browser applet will go surely.
But thats an other story.

Re:Nobody kills Java (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630667)

Sorta? If you have a home mortgage in the US, I can say for a fact that you've got a 50/50 chance of using COBOL every month.

Re:Nobody kills Java (2)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about a month ago | (#47630843)

Sorta? If you have a home mortgage in the US, I can say for a fact that you've got a 50/50 chance of using COBOL every month.

And if you pay taxes, at least in the US, there is a better than 80% chance of COBOL being involved.

Re:Nobody kills Java (4, Insightful)

gl4ss (559668) | about a month ago | (#47630495)

yeah.

" for it being anything more than a runtime and a language with a huge install base." makes me confused. why the heck would it be something else? what does he want? he wants them to brand some operating system as JavaOS or what the fuck?

Re:Nobody kills Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630547)

s/Android/JavaOS/g
Oracle.add($$$$)

Re:Nobody kills Java (4, Insightful)

gstoddart (321705) | about a month ago | (#47630565)

I think the problem is Oracle isn't innovating, isn't advancing the technology, some aspects of it are essentially dead, the Java Community Process is largely ignored ...

Java is moving along under its own intertia, but as stewards of the technology, Oracle isn't really doing a damned thing with it.

They're doing exactly what you expect a company like Oracle to do ... maintain the status quo, fail to innovate, and rest on their laurels.

Re:Nobody kills Java (2)

Jaime2 (824950) | about a month ago | (#47630641)

"runtime and a language with a huge install base" describes a future where Java just coasts. By contrast, Python, Ruby, and .Net are all runtimes and languages (several languages in the case of .Net) with a huge install base that are actively introducing new frameworks, development tools, and feature on a regular basis. I'm calling an interpreter a runtime for the purposes of this conversation.

Re:Nobody kills Java (5, Interesting)

idontgno (624372) | about a month ago | (#47630789)

So, what you're saying is that Oracle's stagnant "sit on it" leadership is bad for people for whom the language and runtime are the end, the product, the point of it all.

As opposed to in the real world, in which the language and runtime are just tools to get shit done, and its users want stability.

You don't have to guess which community Oracle cares about. But if you're not sure, ask yourself which community can Oracle extort support contracts out of, or can be upsold on other products.

Follow the money. How much is the JCP paying Oracle to give a rat's ass about their concerns? Innovation is a cost center to someone protecting a market share, and competing against others who are protecting a market share.

If you want novelty, go find it someplace else. The other posters comparing Java to COBOL, even if jokingly, are very nearly right. Especially if you stipulate that, at the time of COBOL's dominance, the primary implementation of COBOL was associated with IBM big iron.

And that's your historical analogue of the day: COBOL was to IBM what Java is to Oracle.

Re:Nobody kills Java (1)

westlake (615356) | about a month ago | (#47631025)

ask yourself which community can Oracle extort support contracts out of

If support contracts count as extortion than open source development is in big trouble.

Re:Nobody kills Java (5, Insightful)

jythie (914043) | about a month ago | (#47630883)

He probably wants "Innovation", you know, change for the sake of change? Taking something that works and making new partly incompatible versions of it so that it does not have the taint of old and uncool.

Besides, who would want to work on a stable platform where all the major library needs have been met and vetted when one can be on the bleeding edge of something new to show off?

Re:Nobody kills Java (-1, Offtopic)

NemoinSpace (1118137) | about a month ago | (#47631011)

It's a good thing they didn't name this language "Eric Garner", then it would really be dead. All Eric did was not pay taxes on a few loose cigarettes. How much taxes has Oracle not paid on JAVA?
In fairness, Larry Ellison does not hawk CD's on NYC streets. It's a shame Eric never learned JAVA, he might be alive today.
In an effort to stay on topic, I would just point out, this another example of how global warming is ruining our lives.

Oracle Forms (4, Insightful)

Dynamoo (527749) | about a month ago | (#47630361)

Oracle Forms is dependent on Java.. but it seems very version-sensitive. Updating Java can often break forms, despite both being Oracle products.

Other than that, the only use I can see for Java on the desktop is to enable machines to get infected with malware.

Re:Oracle Forms (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630465)

Minecraft. That's the only reason I'd install Java. The browser plugin needs to go though.

Re:Oracle Forms (1)

jythie (914043) | about a month ago | (#47630901)

But I thought we were replacing PCs with the web? If it can not run in a browser, does it really exist?

Re:Oracle Forms (1)

stonedead (2571785) | about a month ago | (#47630511)

Oracle Forms is visual basic on steroids, only more painful to develop. 90s tech and still we are using it, god help us.

Re:Oracle Forms (1, Troll)

Njorthbiatr (3776975) | about a month ago | (#47630631)

Oracle Forms is visual basic on steroids, only more painful to develop. 90s tech and still we are using it, god help us.

QFTFT We have C# now people. You can quit living in the stone age. It's like Java, only not terrible.

Re:Oracle Forms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630811)

"only not terrible" [citation needed]

Re:Oracle Forms (4, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | about a month ago | (#47630839)

It's like Java, only not terrible.

And only runs on Windows.

Re:Oracle Forms (1)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about a month ago | (#47630893)

Oracle Forms is visual basic on steroids, only more painful to develop. 90s tech and still we are using it, god help us.

QFTFT

We have C# now people. You can quit living in the stone age. It's like Java, only not terrible.

That's fine if you live in a Windows only .Net world, but not everybody does. And while there is Mono, it is not 100% compatible.

"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (4, Insightful)

Joe Gillian (3683399) | about a month ago | (#47630367)

What else does this article's author expect Java to be? A programming language and a runtime are exactly what Java is supposed to be.

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630409)

But java was supposed to be the only language you ever need! Websites written in java serving java applets to your java browser.

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (2)

disposable60 (735022) | about a month ago | (#47630651)

Malkovich all the way down.

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630437)

Think holistically, man.
Java needs to be a community of fanboys.

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (5, Funny)

Kenja (541830) | about a month ago | (#47630451)

Then what have I been drinking every morning?

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about a month ago | (#47630507)

Then what have I been drinking every morning?

Hot water passed though over cooked ground up Java Beans perhaps?

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (4, Interesting)

Z00L00K (682162) | about a month ago | (#47630529)

I think that Java started to fail when it went into a split of Standard Edition and Micro Edition instead of relying on the same core for both platforms and then have a good interface between the different libraries. Of course - today the mobile devices are often powerful enough to run Java SE, but it still comes with unnecessary overhead there. The problems with diverting code started when Java 5 was released when you could improve the code considerably when it comes to being type safe through the Generics feature. However Java ME did not follow and that caused problems for developers trying to create a write once, run everywhere app.

I think that the business model that Oracle has is not working when it comes to projects like Java where there is a large codebase depending on the openness of the platform - and by cutting the strings Oracle will suddenly make Java insignificant even though it has been in decline for some while. Cutting the strings might also alienate many major companies that have a large codebase in Java today and that depends on a long term support of that language. So Oracle may sit with something that they want to turn into a fully commercial unit while at the same time they can't because it will kill the product. And a dead product means that they can't find any software developers on the market for their own software written in Java. A catch 22.

The other way around would be to make Java fully open source under some useful license, e.g. the Apache License. But I don't think that Oracle understands how to maintain control then.

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630793)

So in other words, you want a corporation to give you a highly complex piece of technology FOR FREE ?

It worked out well for SUN.

NOT.

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (0)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | about a month ago | (#47630629)

The author is fanboying Java. It's Java, it should be everywhere, Java is awesome, etc.

Java is proprietary, supplanted by CIL, which is ISO standard. There are better languages--like Python--and anything could run on CIL if you got LLVM to output CIL. You could even run Ruby and Java on CIL, if you were so insane as to go with Ruby. C and C++ work on CIL.

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (1)

Jahta (1141213) | about a month ago | (#47630675)

What else does this article's author expect Java to be? A programming language and a runtime are exactly what Java is supposed to be.

Exactly. You would think that a self-proclaimed "Strategic Developer" would know that! :-)

Re:"Anything more than a runtime and a language" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47631023)

"language with a huge install base": the author is saying that's becoming the only redeeming quality of Java itself, having been surpassed by other languages on features.

Seriously?!?! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630373)

Andrew Oliver? The shit mountain of self-importance? Still hasn't died of a heart attack? WhyTF is this on /.? Has this website really sunk that far?

Re:Seriously?!?! (3, Insightful)

multimediavt (965608) | about a month ago | (#47630475)

Andrew Oliver? The shit mountain of self-importance? Still hasn't died of a heart attack? WhyTF is this on /.? Has this website really sunk that far?

In a word, "Yup."

This is the best case scenario (5, Insightful)

netsavior (627338) | about a month ago | (#47630375)

Oracle can't figure out how to screw over java, and we are complaining?

Re:This is the best case scenario (1)

Skuld-Chan (302449) | about a month ago | (#47630407)

Well yeah - if they could figure out how to screw it up I wouldn't have to support it anymore. I work with a bunch of Oracle developers and I think Oracle are trying their hardest to screw up Java, but the problem is - all the universities teach Java and there are so many Java developers out there.

Re: This is the best case scenario (1)

O('_')O_Bush (1162487) | about a month ago | (#47630449)

Well, screwing stuff over really isn't Oracle's modus operandi. Sitting on cash cows is. They have managed to do that just fine... to the detriment of developers who want the language improved.

Re:This is the best case scenario (1)

rubycodez (864176) | about a month ago | (#47630523)

yes they have, posting minor upgrades that break major API

Re:This is the best case scenario (5, Interesting)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about a month ago | (#47630531)

Oracle can't figure out how to screw over java, and we are complaining?

No. Oracle *IS* screwing over Java, and we are complaining. That's what OP was all about.

It's the same crap they did to MySQL, it's just slower. Do you really wonder why most big web hosts have switched to MariaDB? (Hint: they probably won't tell you about it either. They still advertise MySQL, which for practical purposes it still is.)

Java EE is dead (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630395)

Java EE is dead

Really?

I guess I missed that.

Re:Java EE is dead (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630521)

More over... spring dead? =/

Re:Java EE is dead (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630563)

Yep, NodeJS has pretty much taken over as the go-to language in enterprise development now.

Re:Java EE is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630703)

Yep, NodeJS has pretty much taken over as the go-to language in enterprise development now.

Damn you, had to clean my screen after that one.

Yay ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630711)

Java had too much typing. What we need to enlarge the Cyber War Domain is less strong typing !

Let the Eternal Fire Burn !!!!!!!

Re: Java EE is dead (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630957)

Hah, no it hasn't. Jesus. I love node, but the ecosystem is still a messy collection of immature libraries. There are some very cool frameworks and experimental bits. The node community reminds me of early-days Rails - lots of true believers reinventing the wheel in their favourite language. Spring is a well-designed and mature framework that has been getting better every year, and it isn't limited to Web applications. Java is verbose and slow to change, and it doesn't attract gee-whiz handwavy types (yay). It's always refreshing to get called into a company that needs help with a Spring application - nice clean well-separated concerns and stable libraries as opposed to the mess that production apps in PHP, Rails, or node seem to become.

Re:Java EE is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630609)

Yeah, I read that in TFS and was like "WTF? How do you declare something dead that solves so many business problems with relative ease?"

At that point I guessed that the TFA was written by a clueless writer at Infoworld. Hovered over the link, and sure enough, my guess was right.

whatever (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630401)

ignorant troll.

Oh noes! (4, Insightful)

qbast (1265706) | about a month ago | (#47630403)

Some random nobody proclaims death of Java. Thousands of companies that do depend on Java EE just vanished in puff of logic.

Re:Oh noes! (4, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | about a month ago | (#47630459)

Java is becoming the new COBOL. It may not get much respect with the hip young cats, but it's ubiquitous and those that know how to code well in it will always have employment.

To me, it's just a programming language and library ecosystem. There are aspects I don't like, but, providing I don't get too damned clever, I can run my code on all the major platforms, which makes it better than just about anything else out there. For portability, it remains the king.

Re:Oh noes! (-1, Troll)

bobbied (2522392) | about a month ago | (#47630535)

. For portability, it remains the king.

Yea, but for performance, it's still the court jester.. Byte-code!

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630781)

Java performance has improved greatly since its initial release 15+ years ago. It can get close the speed of C++ in many scenarios :

http://codexpi.com/java-vs-cpp-performance-comparison-jit-compilers-java-hotspot-c-native-compiler/

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630821)

For the 99% of runtime it does not use GC. While running GC, your user better freezes, too.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

0123456 (636235) | about a month ago | (#47630859)

For the 99% of runtime it does not use GC. While running GC, your user better freezes, too.

Particularly when your whole machine runs out of RAM running a few Java apps that want a few gigabytes each to reduce garbage collection pauses, and starts swapping.

Re:Oh noes! (2)

phantomfive (622387) | about a month ago | (#47630575)

For portability, it remains the king.

As long as you don't want to run on iPhone or WindowsPhone, or any number of other CPUs. As long as you stick to Windows/Mac/Linux, Java is good for portability

Unless you want to write a library that can be used from several different other languages, like Cython bindings to Python, or JNI to Java, then you should use C. But if you don't want to do that, and you only have a few platforms that you care about, then Java is good for portability.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | about a month ago | (#47630815)

You mean script kiddies that write apps for iPhones and don't know how to program....no great loss.

Re:Oh noes! (4, Insightful)

Vellmont (569020) | about a month ago | (#47630881)


Java is becoming the new COBOL.

I'd like to be the first to say... huh? I'm sure Java will become a legacy language some day, but hipsters don't really define much of anything. Hipsters are against anything that's popular (because popularity by definition isn't hip), and go for the obscure things. That's why PBR became popular. It's not good, but among the younger set microbrews are very popular, so a hipster has to go for something unpopular to distinguish themselves from what's popular.

20 years ago people used to say that about C. C is dying, C is going to be replaced, etc, etc. Didn't happen. By popularity C has a lot more competition, but it's alive and well and not going away. People hate COBOL because it was a badly designed language. If anything is the new COBOL, it's PHP. I've known several PHP programmers, and many of them have switched to another language not because of a lack of jobs, but because they hate the language. I'm not old enough to have been around for the COBOL era, but I'd guess it was the same then.

The death of a language starts when developers leave it in droves for something else. I don't see that happeneing for Java. Do you?

Re:Oh noes! (4, Funny)

phantomfive (622387) | about a month ago | (#47630617)

Some random nobody proclaims death of Java.

He's not a random nobody. He's a strategic developer. The big ideas are the Cloud, NoSQL, and Big Data. You heard it from him first. Java needs to embrace them.

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630755)

Java is easily the dominant language in those areas.

Re:Oh noes! (-1)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about a month ago | (#47630619)

Some random nobody proclaims death of Java. Thousands of companies that do depend on Java EE just vanished in puff of logic.

Java has the Oracle taint now. Nobody will start a project to write anything of value in it. If you already have a Java department, ok, you'll maintain your existing applications, maybe even expand them. But is anyone going to write the next hit ticketing system using it? Hell no.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

Ravaldy (2621787) | about a month ago | (#47630765)

He didn't say it was dead. He just said it's hitting a dead end and he's right. Just like many other runtime have managed to stay alive only because large infrastructures already live off of it but these same runtimes aren't growing.

Here's the problem (3, Interesting)

Nimey (114278) | about a month ago | (#47630421)

Oracle can't figure out how to charge $5000 per CPU per year for Java, so it's not really interested.

Re:Here's the problem (1)

gstoddart (321705) | about a month ago | (#47630487)

Which is why they piggy back that Ask.com pile of crap onto the installer.

They can't quite get the licensing costs they'd like, so they've gone the cheap douchebag route and added crapware.

Troll (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630427)

Huge troll. They got Java 7 released after Sun let it stagnate for years, they released Java 8 with major improvements the community has wanted for years, they are currently working on Java 9 and the module system, etc. Java EE and Sprign certainly are not dead. I regularly attend a local JUG and I would say the majority of people are using Java EE features such as Servlets, JPA, JAX-RS, JAX-WS, many are moving into CDI, and yes there are even a bunch of JSF users. There are Spring users too. IMO the Java community is alive and well.

Where are the big ideas? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630429)

Personally, I'd rather not see Oracle get any big ideas. They usually end badly.

JAVA EE is not dead. (3, Funny)

jaeztheangel (2644535) | about a month ago | (#47630443)

With Lambda expressions in the last release, and the renewed focus on mobile - Java is awesome. For a language which forced Microsoft to up it's game with C#, and with Linux has stormed into taking over most of financial services - it's as least as alive as COBOL. Which - like Sarah Palin - cannot be killed and will not go away. Java has the Colbert of Languages. Wildly successful, despite being in a suit.

JAVA EE is not dead. (0)

JcMorin (930466) | about a month ago | (#47630655)

You means Java try to follow C# only adding same features couple years after? C# is open source (http://referencesource.microsoft.com/) both the framework and the compiler and ECMA and ISO standard. Java have none of that. Many companies can develop competing runtime environment (mono) with help of Microsoft while in Java you get sue. http://arstechnica.com/informa... [arstechnica.com]

Re:JAVA EE is not dead. (1)

Jaime2 (824950) | about a month ago | (#47630713)

For a language which forced Microsoft to up it's game with C#

Java has been playing catch up with C# for almost ten years. Attributes, generics, and lambdas were all added to Java long after they were added to C#. Also, Microsoft made them part of the runtime, while Java only made them part of the compiler (for the most part), so the features work a lot better in C#.

The point of this article is that Oracle has been slowing down the pace of innovation to an even slower pace than Sun was at, and Sun had already lost a five year head start to Microsoft very quickly.

Ahhh ... large corporations ... (3, Insightful)

gstoddart (321705) | about a month ago | (#47630467)

Where cool technology goes to die.

Large corporations often do not have the vision, flexibility, or ability to execute on these things.

They're not making technology for the sake of making better technology, they're doing it purely to monetize it and make money -- for example, Oracle's insistence on keeping that stupid ask.com toolbar in the Java installer.

Oracle doesn't need the revenue from putting shitware on computers, but they do it anyway. Something about "One Rich Asshole".

Instead of writing a good platform which people use, Oracle have just been doing the greedy asshole thing.

Which, considering how much of their stuff runs on Java, you'd think they'd have an interest in keeping the platform working and widely used.

Sun could be visionaries, but Oracle not so much apparently.

I think a lot of people expected Java to begin its decline once it was in the hands of Oracle -- who are completely incapable of being the stewards of an open standard which doesn't generate huge amounts of revenue.

Ahhh ... large corporations ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630515)

You clearly aren't qualified to speak about Java because if you were you would know that the Java community thinks Oracle has been a great steward of Java, with the releases of Java 7, Java 8, Java EE 7, and the ongoing work of Java 9 and Java EE 8. They're doing what Sun couldn't: release. I don't work for Sun/Oracle and never have. I make my living developing enterprise and web apps in Java. FYI Java != applets.

Re:Ahhh ... large corporations ... (0)

gstoddart (321705) | about a month ago | (#47630719)

You clearly aren't qualified to speak about Java

Oh, then tell me oh great and qualified peckerhead ... what new features and functionality which are of note has Oracle put into it? Anything?

I made my living programming in Java for several years.

I've used both the SE and EE versions.

As far as I can tell, the changes applied in Java lately are minor syntactic sugar, and not much else. No innovation, nothing new and shiny, no compelling reason to upgrade other than the inevitable security holes.

Really, the only thing I've seen Oracle innovate in terms of Java (and, yes, it's been a while since I actively used it) was the shitvertizing which is the Ask.com toolbar.

Re:Ahhh ... large corporations ... (1)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about a month ago | (#47630653)

Which, considering how much of their stuff runs on Java, you'd think they'd have an interest in keeping the platform working and widely used.

Why? That's an expense. Oracle bought Sun for two things: to get SPARC's highly threadded architecture to make the existing database product continue to scale, and also to get the Java patents to sue Google into cross-licensing its very large distributed database patents. They still haven't given up on the latter and the former will run out of steam in the not too distant future.

If everybody hates Java and uninstalls it, that's one fewer thing for Oracle to maintain. The patents will be legal even if the product is cancelled. That's also why you don't see them just dumping it on Apache, which would be a good thing for the community, but bad for patent prosecution.

Re:Ahhh ... large corporations ... (1)

disposable60 (735022) | about a month ago | (#47630701)

Something about "One Rich Asshole".

One Rich Asshole Can Louse-up Everything?

Java = Mark Twain of programming languages (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630469)

"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

Well, well (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630489)

The author has set out to kill Java, not realizing that a major chunk of the new distributed Internet relies on Java. Why can't a language just be perfect and fixed?

Just because it isn't changing too many things doesn't mean it is dead.

Oh right, Java is dying (again) (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630503)

Yet another "Java is dying" article, even though it is the language of the most popular mobile OS in the world (Android), the most popular distributed computing platform (Hadoop), and it is the most popular language in general. There is a reason Twitter and others moved back to Java when they got big, because it just works. I guess that makes it too boring for all of the sensationalist tech writers who want to write about something new.

Why is anyone suprised? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630509)

Oracle bought sun to gut the outfit of IP and maybe con some of Sun's userbase in to Oracle products.

That, and some misplaced idea of becoming a vertically integrated one-stop solution. (Yeah. What kind of fucking moron that suffers Oracle's software pricing wants Oracle's cold clammy hands squeezing their nuts for hardware costs too)

They don't give a wet fart about Java, Java's users, or any of other's Sun's formerly important initiatives.

RMS was right about closed software. If you depend on it, you could find yourself at the mercy of some narcissistic slimy fuck like Larry Ellison who buys the company you used to have a good relationship with.

The world is now running away from Java in every possible place it's not irreplaceable (like, say, blu ray players)

Shenanigans! (4, Interesting)

multimediavt (965608) | about a month ago | (#47630517)

'snydeq' isn't a member of the community, he's a paid writer. Go look at his submissions v. comments. This whole site is a sham anymore. This will be my last logged in post. Complete troll bait anymore. Have fun being cogs in a money making scheme. Like Facebook they're done making money off me.

Re:Shenanigans! (4, Informative)

GoddersUK (1262110) | about a month ago | (#47630679)

"'snydeq' isn't a member of the community, he's a paid writer. Go look at his submissions v. comments." - Go and check what site he links to in every single one of his submissions... he fails at subtlety, that's for sure.

Re:Shenanigans! (1)

SparkleMotion88 (1013083) | about a month ago | (#47630867)

Agreed. This shit is just nerd clickbait.

Java was fantastic in 1995 (3, Insightful)

presidenteloco (659168) | about a month ago | (#47630533)

But the JEE framework went against some of the Java founders' quest for simplicity, and byzantine configuration-based frameworks were not brought out at dawn and shot soon enough, so they took over. And the language has some annoying verbosity and stuttering.

20 years later we need to move on. Less is more.

Re:Java was fantastic in 1995 (1)

vsync64 (155958) | about a month ago | (#47630723)

About the time it started getting called "Java EE" instead of "J2EE" they started stripping out most of the requirements for redundant default configurations. Some of the complexity is gratuitous, sure, but a lot is because it attempts to let developers handle more complex situations or scaling requirements (horizontal and/or vertical). I used to scoff years ago at some of the layers and knobs, until I found myself needing to use them, then I thought "these guys were smart to think of this in advance".

There are worse things than having a codebase -- already somewhat sanity-checked by the compiler, mind you -- that you can drop into an application server along with a small configuration file, and it can just plug into your preferred vendor, your preferred database, your system/user/network configuration.

I've played with a lot of frameworks and written others. Regardless of hype or abstract quality (and by the way I used to really detest Java as a language; now it's down to a mild dislike as they've improved it and things like Lombok have come along) it turns out I can just sit down and get work done with it and to some extent it helps my projects be "the right way" out of the box for later growth, and I have to respect that.

Been decades (2)

JustOK (667959) | about a month ago | (#47630541)

I've been saying for a couple of decades that Java is just a fad. I'll be right, sooner or later.

hmm (1)

buddyglass (925859) | about a month ago | (#47630545)

Java != Spring. Java != J2EE. At some point, when a language has been tweaked for, say, 20 years, do you get to the point where the addition of new language features (as opposed to libraries) should be a fairly rare thing?

Re:hmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630633)

At some point, when a language has been tweaked for, say, 20 years, do you get to the point where the addition of new language features (as opposed to libraries) should be a fairly rare thing?

As far as C++ is concerned, I don't think that Stroustrup ever got that memo.

Re:hmm (1)

buddyglass (925859) | about a month ago | (#47630769)

Agreed. Open question as to whether that's a net positive. My point is that the pace of language modifications should slow down as a language matures and all the low-hanging fruit has been picked. It's unrealistic to expect a constant rate of change.

Just like C then? (5, Insightful)

putaro (235078) | about a month ago | (#47630559)

Seriously, how much language "innovation" do we need? The platform is huge and there's more than enough third-party libraries to satisfy any needs.

Python (1)

xtal (49134) | about a month ago | (#47630569)

Python has replaced Java for anything I used to do with it.

Javascript lives on.

IDEs are better. It's easier to port code. Much has been abstracted. I don't necessarily see where Java fits in the picture long term; it's been abandoned by Apple and Microsoft as a core language.

The beat goes on.

no way! (1)

slashmydots (2189826) | about a month ago | (#47630579)

Seriously? LET IT DIE! It's the worst thing to ever happen to internet security. All they made was a slow, inefficient, awful launching pad for platform-independent viruses. Their updater now even loads crapware onto your computer by default. Their technology is a battery-draining, time-wasting, GPU-melting catastrophe that's right up there with Flash. They did next to nothing to fix their 3 years of straight security problems. What they did do broke millions of programs with every update. Nobody in their right mind is still using Java for anything corporate. Entire banks redid their online banking for security reasons after developing a Java-based solution. There is no need to revive software from such a bad company that has such a bad history.

Re:no way! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630903)

I think the worst thing to ever happen to internet security is humans and the assumptions they make about internet security being possible (or at the very least feasible). Seriously dude, stop blaming the hammer when your aim is off.

As someone who doesn't mind Java and actually thinks GUI frameworks (ala Swing, Qt, or even Dojo) are the only sensible approach to interface implementation, I resent that. Most of the internet isn't just crapware, it's complete and utter bullshit; get over it and go on thinking you're going to make millions writing boring webforms. It's funny how all of your other complaints about Java are my exact complaints about anything-web, when I KNOW I'm right. (For example, I have a 2001-era AMD Athlon XP DAW system that can record over 20 and playback over 100 tracks of 48k audio at a time, but it can't handle Facebook.)

The face of Java is Minecraft (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630659)

You have an entire generation of young people learning to curse the name of Java thanks to Minecraft. Imagine the returns if they devoted even one developer as a liason to Mojang.

Oracle CAN'T kill JAVA. (1)

NemoinSpace (1118137) | about a month ago | (#47630695)

Only Netcraft can do that.

It's that time of the month again (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630749)

Why? Because some faddy web technology has a few more job openings on Dice this quarter than it did previously? Java has stood the test of time, and there's no reason to think it's old and crusty just because it can do webslol as auto-magically. The truth of the matter is, companies only switch to the new hotness of webobullshit to attract younger talent, but when it turns out to suck (and it inevitably does), they resort back to something that's tried and true anyways.

Natural evolution (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630773)

At some point adding features to a programming language subtracts from its usefulness. C++ passed this point long ago. What happens is that very smart and dedicated people after devoting long hours to discussions and meetings can hardly be satisfied by merely stopping some dubious extension, they need the psychological reward of adding to the language. Perhaps Java can avoid this fate.

Because of...? (1)

Ryyuajnin (862754) | about a month ago | (#47630785)

Oh boo-hoo Snydeq! You're just pissed cause nobody will explain to you what AOP means. Face it buddy: Spring & EE are gonna be here for a long long time, so get out your Kleenex and get prepare for a long and satisfying cry! When you're finished, go learn EE/Spring so you can go to work with the big boys.

JAVA is dead? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630791)

I wish. Buggy, fickle, and full of security holes with nonstop updates which break older apps. It may be a panacea for developers, for an administrator who has to use tools coded in Java, it's a PITA.

Java Aint Dead (2)

ISoldat53 (977164) | about a month ago | (#47630801)

I get a popup every other day with an update.

snydeq is spamming (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630829)

snydeq, the submitter of this story, has submitted infinitely more stories than he has commented on. each story links to the same site. it's evident that he's driving traffic to his site to generate revenue. this is fucked up.

posting anon because i modded up the other people pointing this out.

The promise of Java... (2)

theendlessnow (516149) | about a month ago | (#47630875)

Java - Write once. Run everywhere.
Java - Write once. Test everywhere.
Java - Write for one version. Run on one version.

Java - Write once. Run scared!

bollocks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47630937)

The language still evolves. At slightly higher speed than C++. That's not a bad thing for a language. And the Java ecosystem is really healthy.

Conflict of Interest? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47631005)

Andrew C. Oliver is also CEO of Open Software Integrators, a small consulting firm "custom application development and support for open source and cloud based technologies." A quick look at the company's press releases and other articles and blog posts from Oliver, reveal an overall negative bias against Oracle. Of course, it's very easy to have a negative bias against Oracle, because, well, it's Oracle after all. But it seems to me that Oliver's company which uses competing products from Oracle competitors like Red Hat and IBM, indirectly benefits (in a small way) by criticizing Oracle as a company and its products. He should have disclosed hist position at his company at the end of the article.

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