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Russian Military Forces Have Now Invaded Ukraine

timothy posted about 2 months ago | from the or-maybe-it's-a-1000-person-picnic dept.

The Military 848

SpzToid (869795) writes Those plucky "Ukrainian separatist's" ambition to join Russia have now been given Russian military support, as the Russian Army with long columns of armor have invaded Ukraine and have opened up a second warring front, in a big way. The Reuters report, interestingly, quotes a member of Putin's own advisory council on human rights describing the move as an invasion: "When masses of people, under commanders' orders, on tanks, APCs and with the use of heavy weapons, (are) on the territory of another country, cross the border, I consider this an invasion."

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Send in the drones! (4, Insightful)

Scottingham (2036128) | about 2 months ago | (#47775179)

With hastily spray-painted Ukrainian flags!

Re:Send in the drones! (5, Insightful)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 months ago | (#47775367)

Im not 100% clear why we wouldnt want to get involved here, if ever there were a time to get involved.

Ukraine disarmed itself in 2006 at our urging, with the understanding that we would come to their aid if ever it were needed. At the same time, having a superpower like Russia going into full imperialism mode is good for noone but Russia. A tepid response like the one theyve been given will only encourage further aggression.

Re:Send in the drones! (2)

Scottingham (2036128) | about 2 months ago | (#47775391)

We shouldn't...just our drones :-p

Re:Send in the drones! (3, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 months ago | (#47775469)

I don't know how Russia, you know, the big one, reacts if the US decided to support (and possibly occup... I mean liberate) a country right at its border.

I mean, how'd you feel if Russia took over Mexico?

I'd be quite careful how to react to that. Putin doesn't have as much leeway to do what he pleases as it seems. Russia likes big, strong, tough men at the top. Men who give in have a pretty hard time to remain in power.

Re:Send in the drones! (4, Insightful)

pla (258480) | about 2 months ago | (#47775671)

I mean, how'd you feel if Russia took over Mexico?

About the same way we'd feel when they tried to put nukes in Cuba?

But at least that one went well...

Re:Send in the drones! (5, Interesting)

stoploss (2842505) | about 2 months ago | (#47775807)

I mean, how'd you feel if Russia took over Mexico?

About the same way we'd feel when they tried to put nukes in Cuba?

But at least that one went well...

Right. In that case they were simply reacting to our aggressive positioning of Jupiter missiles in Turkey. We offered to remove those if they pulled back from Cuba. Balance of MAD restored.

What's the quid pro quo play here?

Re:Send in the drones! (5, Insightful)

neoritter (3021561) | about 2 months ago | (#47775729)

What a skewed analogy. I think you mean, how would we feel if Russia came to the aid of Mexico at their request after we were sending troops to support rebel secessionists?

Seriously get bent.

Re:Send in the drones! (4, Insightful)

bobbied (2522392) | about 2 months ago | (#47775485)

It is the tepid response given to atrocities elsewhere that has sent the message that Putin can do this with impunity. He knows he can get away with this and only risk getting Russian assets frozen world wide. That might tick off the rich guys some, but Putin isn't really elected by them anyway.

Re:Send in the drones! (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775643)

Another fucking moron who doesn't know that Putin is protecting these people from the US.

Re:Send in the drones! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775741)

yeah! Thanks Obama!

Re:Send in the drones! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775563)

really ?

Where were YOU when we have been invading all over middle east and Afghanistan, and everywhere else ?

We have been pissing on the Russians, provoking them with missile placements right in their backyard, then placing this proxy "leader" in Ukraine. Of course, he is less corrupt than his predecessor, right ? As it was in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, etc ?! All this is a diversion from the real issues at home, much as the cold war was for both countries.

Re:Send in the drones! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775659)

Russian astroturfer.

Re:Send in the drones! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775583)

1) It's not about defending ourselves from foreign invaders, so we have no business here, regardless of whether we think slightly better about the cunts in Moscow or the cunts in Kiev;

2) You're a fucking idiot if you interpret an arms reduction agreement as promise of military aid, and so was the Ukraine;

3) The US has been in full imperialism mode since the '40s. It is never a good time to invade the US;

4) The artificial creation of the Ukraine was the first problem;

5) The undemocratic overthrow of the Ukrainian government was the straw that broke the camel's back;

6) This doesn't make Russia's behaviour correct;

7) There is no correct behaviour.

Re:Send in the drones! (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775587)

Because you're a fucking moron if you don't know the US is already involved. The US is the one doing the invading.

Re:Send in the drones! (1)

beelsebob (529313) | about 2 months ago | (#47775599)

It's really simple. The russians have nukes, and the missiles to get them to us.

Re:Send in the drones! (4, Informative)

SpankiMonki (3493987) | about 2 months ago | (#47775813)

Ukraine disarmed itself in 2006 at our urging, with the understanding that we would come to their aid if ever it were needed.

The only "aid" that the US is obligated to provide Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances [wikisource.org] is to seek UN Security Council action in the event that Ukraine is attacked (or threatened) with nuclear weapons.

The agreement is a one page document written in plain language. It's hard to imagine anyone who's read it would interpret it as you do.

Re:Send in the drones! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775817)

You're right, but Obama is a scared school boy, who would never face the neighborhood bully.

In fact, this might very well be what Obama was talking to Putin about when he said "Wait until after my re-election".

Prediction: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775207)

The rest of the world does absolutely nothing.

Re:Prediction: (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775335)

Lets be honest. You'd complain even harder if some other nation did do something.

Re:Prediction: (0)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | about 2 months ago | (#47775617)

Russia is not low hanging political fruit. Politicians don't know how to do anything that requires commitment or being accountable. Helping Ukraine, including shipping real weapons systems means taking a stand with consequences. And what they refuse to recognize is that when Russia is at the Polish border they'll be asking how it got that far. They actively forget that by ignoring what is going on, they (Ukraine) will eventually become NATO. Better to stop it early, unlike in the 1930s. Maybe Germany will actually do something more than have conversations on the phone when the Berlin Wall is being rebuilt. This is not hyperbole. It should be readily apparent that Putin wants the Soviet Union back. I wonder when Neville Merkel or Barack Chamberlain will get their heads out of their asses. Of course Russians aren't Muslims so the US Congress won't care till it's too late. but I put more blame on the Europeans. They will be waffleling and talking until Eastern Europe is paying taxes to the Kremlin again. Russia will not stop trying till they get it all back bit by bit over time. Or until Europe grows some balls. Those who forget history...

wow (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775209)

That's just sad

Putin: "Your move, West" (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775223)

Unfortunately for those living there a lack of control of Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia, and it always has been. This is Putin and his faction basically saying "Bring it Europe/US. What are you going to do?" They're gambling that Ukrainian sovereignty is less important to the US and Europe than getting in a shooting war with Russia, and quite frankly they're probably right.

Re: Putin: "Your move, West" (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775269)

God willing. Nobody needs Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 real edition.

Re: Putin: "Your move, West" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775381)

Yeah, god willing, Russians will be able to invade and subjugate a sovereign nation quickly - that way we don't have to be inconvenienced at all, and only some random Ukrainians I've never heard of will die.

Advanced western anti-armor rockets for Ukraine (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775419)

Unfortunately for those living there a lack of control of Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia, and it always has been. This is Putin and his faction basically saying "Bring it Europe/US. What are you going to do?" They're gambling that Ukrainian sovereignty is less important to the US and Europe than getting in a shooting war with Russia, and quite frankly they're probably right.

No shooting is necessary for NATO itself. They just need to supply Ukraine with advanced weaponry. It worked in Afghanistan in the 1980s, a few stingers missile systems and all of a sudden Russia air power become impotent and Russian ground forces once again became highly vulnerable to attack. Leading to Russia's retreat. And that was in Soviet days when Russia had a far more capable military.

Some advanced western anti-armor rockets in the hands of Ukrainian troops could make a huge difference compared to the old Soviet leftover RPGs and such they currently have.

Re:Advanced western anti-armor rockets for Ukraine (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 months ago | (#47775513)

Yeah, supplying weapons and lunatics crazy enough to fight our enemy has worked so well in Afghanistan, let's do that again!

Ukrainians are a modern civilized people ... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775739)

Yeah, supplying weapons and lunatics crazy enough to fight our enemy has worked so well in Afghanistan, let's do that again!

Ukrainians are a modern, western, civilized people. Arming them is quite different than arming religious fanatics looking to recreate the middle ages.

And besides, it did work. The Russian military suffered over 14,000 killed in Afghanistan and over 53,000 wounded. The Russians experienced actual battlefield military defeat. Not the political defeat the US is experiencing.

Re:Advanced western anti-armor rockets for Ukraine (4, Insightful)

Aighearach (97333) | about 2 months ago | (#47775815)

Yeah, supplying weapons and lunatics crazy enough to fight our enemy has worked so well in Afghanistan, let's do that again!

Most Ukrainians are secular, and those who are religious are mostly Christians. I don't see much parallel at all to Afghanistan and the things that went wrong after we double-crossed them.

Also, we wouldn't economically abandon Ukraine afterwards; all of Europe already have trade ties, and nobody is against trading with them or investing there, post-war. Heck, I've got sunflower oil from Ukraine in my kitchen right now. Afghanistan went sideways because we promised them they could be in the modern family of nations if they drove out the Russians, and that was a lie. They were abandoned to their mud huts.

Re:Putin: "Your move, West" (4, Insightful)

sycodon (149926) | about 2 months ago | (#47775453)

Obama will be breaking out his Red pen anytime now...Red Line imminent!

  His phone is on standby too!

Re: Putin: "Your move, West" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775629)

His red bat phone.

Re:Putin: "Your move, West" (4, Insightful)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | about 2 months ago | (#47775677)

>> Obama will be breaking out his Red pen anytime now

I'd love to see the transcript of their next call.
Obama: "Putin, but why?"
Putin: "Because fuck you, that's why."

But I won't, so I'll have to comfort myself with some classic Clinton triangulation, probably coming out on Friday.
H.Clinton: "I knew Romney was right about Russia, but it wasn't my place to defy my President as Secretary of State."

Re:Putin: "Your move, West" (0, Flamebait)

DarkOx (621550) | about 2 months ago | (#47775645)

"sovereignty" what a fucking joke. They ousted a lawfully elected president, using an unlawful process at our urging. Lets face it when Obam says "elections have consequences" he means "election have consequences, if the elected is me". We have seen this with Morsi as well.

I am not saying Yanakovich was good guy; but we could have taken all their air out of this thing at the start if we would have backed Russia, in insisting the rebels/rioters just go home. Putin did not like Yanakovich either but had more or less backed him publicly at the time. It would have been much more politically challenging for him to get away with invading Ukraine while the sitting Russian leaning president was in office and than after he lost the next election to a European leaning one. Now we a situation where people can argue about the the legitmacy of the current office holders, Putin can and does make the very correct argument they are no more or less legitimate than the separatist leaders.

We could have avoided all this if Obama had been a little more patient and not tried bring Ukraine under Western influence so aggressively and quickly. It would have happen, was happening just needed time.

Now this is really Russia's game to loose. Ukraine is strategically more valuable to them than us. We have more immediate threats to deal with ISIS, Assad, IRAQ, Hamas, North Korean, and the African coast. All of those pose much greater economic and security risks to us than what happens in Non-NATO Eastern Europe.

Re:Putin: "Your move, West" (3, Insightful)

Aighearach (97333) | about 2 months ago | (#47775859)

You read a lot of strange propaganda if you still believe that stuff even 6 months later. You make it sound like their protesters were American paratroopers. A little too much Pravda in your ear, I'd say.

Did not invade The Ukraine (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775239)

Russia has mearly approprirated what has always belonged to it: The Ukraine.

Re:Did not invade The Ukraine (2)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 months ago | (#47775533)

Huh? Wait, we can...

Germany? Austria? Turkey? Saddle up and regain your empire from last century, the sale has begun!

Re:Did not invade The Ukraine (1)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | about 2 months ago | (#47775781)

That is what is really going on.

Re:Did not invade The Ukraine (2)

bobbied (2522392) | about 2 months ago | (#47775549)

Yea, the rights of the Ukrainian people to choose their government be damned, this is Russian imperialism at stake here.. (sarcasm off)

Amen... thank God (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775247)

title says it all

Cut the Russians Off (-1, Flamebait)

Sonny Yatsen (603655) | about 2 months ago | (#47775255)

If the Russians wish to engage in this kind of conduct, then the rest of the world should hit them where it hurts the most - their treasury.

We should deny all Russian lenders (not just the 5 picked out for sanctions so far) from being able to access US and European bond markets to raise capital. We should indefinitely sanction any transfer of petrochemical technology by US and European companies to any Russian firm. And we should sanction any credit transactions between American/European credit companies and Russian banks (i.e. cut off Mastercard, Discover, Visa, AmEx, etc.).

If they wish to engage to aggression against other country's sovereignty, they should do it without the rest of the world helping fund them.

And for good measure, Ukraine should "sell" its ownership in the Ukrainian section of the gas pipeline to a Nato country and then shut off the flow of gas.

Re:Cut the Russians Off (2, Insightful)

TWX (665546) | about 2 months ago | (#47775353)

In a more conventional war typically the targeted nation's shipping is seized, both flagged vessels and vessels under other flags owned by those from that nation.

If I remember right, there's a treaty in place that was the result of Ukraine's voluntary handover of its nuclear weapons where it was supposed to receive defense. I'm curious to see if it'll be invoked.

Re:Cut the Russians Off (5, Informative)

Sonny Yatsen (603655) | about 2 months ago | (#47775399)

Actually, the handover of USSR's stockpile of nuclear weapons in the Ukraine wasn't in exchange for defense, but rather in exchange for a promise from Russia that Russia will never use its military weapons to attack or intimidate the Ukraine. (See the Budapest Memorandum, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B... [wikipedia.org] )

Clearly, that agreement has been broken by Russia. Of course, I doubt any powers are going to try to exacerbate the situation by either providing the Ukraine with nuclear weapons or suggesting that Ukraine should acquire nuclear weapons, but based on my understanding of the Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine is well within its rights to do so now that Russia has breached the agreement.

Re:Cut the Russians Off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775427)

They really won't care as much as you would hope. Their history of shrugging things off like this while flipping us the bird is almost as long as their history of making some less-than-legal exchanges of their old military gear for cash to damn-near anyone willing to do so.

Cut the Russians Off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775443)

Cut Israel off!

Re:Cut the Russians Off (4, Insightful)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 2 months ago | (#47775517)

And for good measure, Ukraine should "sell" its ownership in the Ukrainian section of the gas pipeline to a Nato country and then shut off the flow of gas.

Cutting off the flow of gas would hurt Europe a lot more than it would hurt Russia at this point. Entering the winter with your largest gas supplier no longer providing you with the gas that you use for heating would suck. And as gas is fungible, it doesn't matter to Russia if we stop buying it from them, unless everyone else stops buying it from them - if China doesn't join in with the boycott then it just means that they'll be buying more has from Russia because the price of everyone else's gas will go up.

Re:Cut the Russians Off (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775653)

People keep repeating this but I don't think it's true.

It will be difficult in the short term but the consequences of being under Russia (Or rather the robber barons that control the failed state that carries the name Russia) are becoming too big to ignore.

China and Russia really are not friends. China's not stupid. They don't want to be dependent on them either.

Re:Cut the Russians Off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775519)

Good luck with that in Europe, most of the countries there are more or less dependent on Russian natural gas exports.

Winter is coming...

Re:Cut the Russians Off (1)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | about 2 months ago | (#47775551)

If they wish to engage to aggression against other country's sovereignty, they should do it without the rest of the world helping fund them.

Better be careful what you wish for. If the rest of the world applied that standard to the USA and UK they'd have nobody to buy their bonds at all. You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?

Re:Cut the Russians Off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775665)

If they wish to engage to aggression against other country's sovereignty, they should do it without the rest of the world helping fund them.

Better be careful what you wish for. If the rest of the world applied that standard to the USA and UK they'd have nobody to buy their bonds at all. You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?

Neither the US nor the UK have tried to conquer anyone in the past century or so. Russia has already annexed part of the Ukraine, and is not trying to conquer the rest.

Re:Cut the Russians Off (4, Insightful)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | about 2 months ago | (#47775753)

Wat?

I assume from your absurd statement that you consider invading Afghanistan and Iraq, then replacing their governments, is not "conquering"? Because ..... ? Because they installed a new government and then left, sorta, except they still routinely fly drones and air-strike anyone in those countries they see fit, which no truly independent country would tolerate.

Even if you use such a stupid definition of "conquer", you're attacking a straw man. I said invade, not conquer. It's indisputable that America has routinely invaded countries far away from their own borders over and over again. Any regime that boils down to "those who use military force against others gets sanctioned" would result in America being entirely cut off from the world economy for years. That clearly won't happen so this is just another case of American (and to some extent European) hypocrisy at work. Either do it consistently or don't do it at all. Preferably not at all - sanctions are based on the idea that punishing huge swathes of ordinary citizens on both sides will somehow bring about political change. How many people really believe the people are in charge of their governments foreign policies in countries like the USA?

Re:Cut the Russians Off (3, Insightful)

Dutch Gun (899105) | about 2 months ago | (#47775685)

You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe that would be a nice object less as to why it's not healthy to be buried in so much debt. Or to be policing the entire damned world on our own dime, for that matter.

Re:Cut the Russians Off (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 2 months ago | (#47775577)

Yea, and we should close all our McDonald's operations too....

Re:Cut the Russians Off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775619)

Or, maybe our oligarchs will stop trying to take over the Ukraine from their oligarchs and let the Russian people sort things out for themselves.

Wouldn't it have been nice to spend the $4T we spent in iraq on education, healthcare, and research in renewables and energy efficiency instead of bombs?

Re:Cut the Russians Off (2)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 months ago | (#47775623)

No go.

Europe is quite dependent on Russian gas and oil. You'll be hard pressed to convince Europe that it should do without. And now take a wild guess where more of that money is located...

Re:Cut the Russians Off (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775819)

Why should we sanction someone that is fighing against racist neo-Nazis. Ukraine's new dictator hates Russians and has said over and over again that he wants them dead. Russia is doing the right thing by protecting its people who aren't necessarily Russian on paper, but certainly are in reality. By standing against Russia, you are standing with Nazis.

Re:Cut the Russians Off (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775847)

How dare they? This is a dangerous precedent
Imagine if this led to another country invading countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, or launching drone strikes in Pakistan or Yemen.
The west would immediately stand up to this I would think and immediately impose sanctions on any country that would do this.

Remember the Sochi Olympics (2)

SpzToid (869795) | about 2 months ago | (#47775265)

Wasn't it a wonderful, peaceful time, so long ago? Ah, those were the days.

Re:Remember the Sochi Olympics (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775495)

Wasn't it a wonderful, peaceful time, so long ago? Ah, those were the days.

Yeah, both Hitler and Putin put on good games before moving on to occupying what they believed their natural sphere's of influence in eastern europe.

Re:Remember the Sochi Olympics (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775593)

I dunno, the opening ceremonies seemed kind of ominous [imgur.com] to me.

(Bonus points: The CAPTCHA for this post is 'worried')

Re:Remember the Sochi Olympics (1)

bobbied (2522392) | about 2 months ago | (#47775613)

(sarcasm noted..)

It was pretty clear from the opening ceremony that conquest was Putin's aim. I strongly suspected this (and more) was coming.

Re:Remember the Sochi Olympics (1)

SpzToid (869795) | about 2 months ago | (#47775693)

Sarcasm? Who, me?

Re:Remember the Sochi Olympics (3, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 months ago | (#47775631)

Can't help it, it kinda felt like Berlin 1936...

Re:Remember the Sochi Olympics (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775809)

You've been there, too?

A photograph? (1)

pjabardo (977600) | about 2 months ago | (#47775267)

I'm on the other side of the world and I have no idea what is going on. But we have been hearing claims of columns of Russian armored vehicles entering Ukraine every couple days for the past month. I have yet to see a photograph. In this day and age this shouldn't be too difficult. That is the least we should expect from a newspaper that is supposed to be important (and serious?).

Re:A photograph? (3, Informative)

BZ (40346) | about 2 months ago | (#47775305)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-... [bbc.com] has some photographs if you care.

Re:A photograph? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775339)

You should check Instagram for Russian Soldier selfies.

A photograph? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775609)

What, you didn't see the news this morning?

HEADLINE: Russia Armor *POURS* Across the Border Into Ukraine!!!
PHOTO: OMFG, A SHITLOAD OF TANKS AND GUNS LINED UP ON THE HIGHWAY!!! ...
tiny, grey caption: btw, these are Ukrainian

So what will East Ukraine be called? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775275)

Ukraine, for one, welcomes their new/old Russian overlords. Well...not so much as welcomes as runs like hell to avoid being slaughtered because there is no way anyone stands up the Russians like they are some Middle East country acting tough.

The slow blade penetrates the shield (3, Insightful)

Daetrin (576516) | about 2 months ago | (#47775285)

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/27/6... [vox.com]

As someone else put it, Putin is aspiring to be a Dune character. Or more prosaically, he's learned a lot from watching US corporations and the US government manipulate the news cycle. Do something that will outrage the public, wait for the new furor, pull back a little, wait for the news to move on to some other subject, and try again.

Just Accept the Realpolitik (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775289)

Comrade Putin's long-term intention is to reclaim the old Russian/Soviet empire as a popularity move to mask the economic rape of the country by the Chekists and their cronies.

It has the secondary effect of securing his western flank, before he can focus on Siberia. Despite the current Moscow-Peking love fest, Russia is very paranoid about Chinese actions and intentions in the Far East.

In any event, what is the West going to do except piss themselves in a sanctimonious fit of faux outrage? Do you think any sane leader is going to risk poking the thermonuclear bear over what is essentially a border dispute?

Re:Just Accept the Realpolitik (0)

bobbied (2522392) | about 2 months ago | (#47775717)

If not for this, when?

We have a treaty with Ukraine that specifically states we (NATO) would come to their defense in exactly this situation. Unless we intend to destroy NATO and pleasure ourselves with economic sanctions, we are really going to have to do something about this. But who knows what a pacifist administration with only 3 years left will really want to do? My guess is play another round or two while letting the UN blather on and on. (Or more to the point, pass the buck/blame on to the next administration if they can).

The US and UK need to stay out of this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775301)

The US and western EU really need to stay out of this. We are going to regret any military involvement. Now, if they invade Poland or another NATO nation, then yes, but the Balkanised states are basically Russian anyway -- and none of them save Estonia are doing well.

Re:The US and UK need to stay out of this (4, Informative)

jellomizer (103300) | about 2 months ago | (#47775379)

However...A Big Part of the issue was Ukraine wanted to join the EU and NATO, however the Ukrainian president at the time decided to side with Russia while most of the country wanted to be with the EU.

So we are in kinda of a gray zone here.

Re:The US and UK need to stay out of this (2)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 months ago | (#47775681)

The problem is, another part wanted to join Russia. When you look at their economy, that makes a damn lot of sense. The eastern Ukraine is fully dependent on Russia, if Russia nailed the border shut ... well, let's say Detroit would look like everyone's fully employed.

Re:The US and UK need to stay out of this (2, Insightful)

i kan reed (749298) | about 2 months ago | (#47775445)

Eh, I'm usually a pacifist when it comes to all the pointless conflicts the US gets involved in, but unopposed military hegemony ruthlessly expanding has a .000 batting average on helping anyone but the elites of the expanding power.

Not exactly news for nerds (-1, Redundant)

pr0t0 (216378) | about 2 months ago | (#47775343)

While it is news and it does matter, I don't feel Slashdot is the appropriate site for this article. There are plenty of the other online news aggregation and discussion sites where this would be entirely appropriate content.

As such, I'm afraid I must boycott this article by not posting!

Re:Not exactly news for nerds (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775501)

On the contrary, anything that will result in some fun scenarios for Civilization V is news for nerds.

Re:Not exactly news for nerds (3, Insightful)

hcs_$reboot (1536101) | about 2 months ago | (#47775569)

This Russian move represents a serious deterioration of the world unity as we knew it, and is likely to affect most of us, directly or indirectly, and more or less severely. Yes I want to read here the various opinions on this crucial topic, moderated the /. way.

Really? statist propaganda Slashdot now? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775375)

Bad enough Dig has become a statist mouthpiece... but slashdot now too?

i guess it wont be long before the comments are gone from here as well.. cant have people spreading stories on how Keiv purchased a handfull of broken russia tanks for "scrap" last month from Hungry...

Re:Really? statist propaganda Slashdot now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775575)

If you actually check into these articles, you'll notice that perspective is covered. Russia's current official stance is that these are only rumors and that those tanks could have been sold to the separatists. Sure, fair enough, but the story doesn't really hold up with the other evidence. Russian soldiers have been captured inside Ukraine, and tens of thousands of Russian soldiers, including tanks and other high-tech weaponry, have been tracked on satellite having traveled from inner Russia to the Ukraine border.

But, hey, who needs things like "facts" when you can just dispel anything you disagree with as "propaganda."

Re:Really? statist propaganda Slashdot now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775849)

All countries have propaganda, agendas, motives , and all the other pieces that come with geo-politics. None of which belong on Slash-dot, IMO

no good solution (2)

roman_mir (125474) | about 2 months ago | (#47775383)

There is no good solution to any of this, both governments will be pushing to the end. Ukrainian government doesn't want to lose a large chunk of territory and Russian government doesn't want to let go now, since the loss will be seen as weakness and there is a huge interest in controlling the gas supplying line to Europe. Putin's reaction to Ukraine attempts to become part of NATO was going to be met with this type of violent reaction from Putin, who doesn't want to see NATO missile launchers even closer to the western border. AFAIC the American hands are all over this one, trying hard to create yet another distraction from its failing economy. Putin was easy to manipulate to start the war, but how do you end this war? A war with Russia can turn nuclear, so that is why there are no Americans or British or German or Canadian or other visible troops there yet.

Putin has a war now that everybody understands Russia is leading, but at the same time it is not an openly declared war, you can say it is an open secret war. Putin cannot win against the West but West doesn't want to fight a real shooting war with Russia either.

Stalemate. The only losers are the people who are forced into it on all sides, be it death due to bombing or bullets or sickness or be it economic sanctions (which by the way are not declared against 'others', economic sanctions are declared against your own. So economic sanctions imposed by Putin 'against West' are actually economic sanctions by Putin against Russians, it is just that the propaganda is strong, economic education and understanding is low and there is a tribal thing going on there as well).

USA provoked another conflict that may not end and definitely will not end well, good job. Putin is throwing fresh meat into the meat grinder, good job. Ukrainians are stuck between these two, like so many others before it, too bad.

AFAIC the only quick way out of this is for Putin to be assassinated or for Ukraine to give up and for the West to fuck off. All of these are unfortunate, but the alternatives do include a possibility of a nuclear war.

Obama's Propaganda (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775425)

Since when did slashdot become a mouthpiece for Washington?

Re:Obama's Propaganda (0)

bobbied (2522392) | about 2 months ago | (#47775763)

Since when did slashdot become a mouthpiece for Washington?

Since Snowden became a mouthpiece for Putin and Russia perhaps?

If WW3 breaks out, then it will matter greatly to SlashDot readers. Ever heard of the draft?

Re:Obama's Propaganda (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 months ago | (#47775765)

/. can by some margin not become a mouthpiece for anything but what the people commenting on it want. Yes, you can tack a propaganda story to the front page. But be prepared to have it shred to pieces before long.

And since people (at least the people I know&care about) read /. for the comments rather than the stories itself, any kind of astroturfing or propaganda usually backfires VERY badly VERY quickly.

Re:Obama's Propaganda (1)

TheP4st (1164315) | about 2 months ago | (#47775833)

As opposed to every single Russian media outlet being a Putin propaganda outlet, effectively manipulating an entire nation?

So what was the plan? (4, Insightful)

penguinoid (724646) | about 2 months ago | (#47775465)

This is something we saw coming, at least since the incident with Crimea. What plans were made for this? Or are they all pretending to be surprised?

beware the source (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775467)

The source of this claim is the Ukrainian government, which has just suffered a setback in their campaign against the rebels. I would take their statements with a huge dose of suspicion right now, they are desperate and will say anything to try to swing opinion in their favor.

Remember during the fist Gulf War how the tearful Kuwait woman claimed that Iraqi soldiers had invaded a hospital and killed babies? A bunch of lies.

Remember how in the Second Gulf War we invaded because Saddam had WMD? Again, a bunch of lies.

Keep you pants on, let this play out, don't be so quick to believe everything you are told, consider the source, don't be a sucker every time.

This is not first time.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775475)

Several years ago Russia invided Georgia. But no one cared. Russia now invided Ukraine and world's answer is only few sanctions. There was Chechnia also if you remmember.. So f*ck you world, you all who is deaf, dumb and blind when this happens, you will see Russian boot on your ass soon.

Alternate views (0)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | about 2 months ago | (#47775515)

Given that all our leaders in both the west and Russia are pathological liars, I'm always interested to find the other side of the story. Not that our media makes it easy.

This slashdot story reports what's happening as fact. But as far as I can tell what we have is actually only quotes from Kiev, the same people who have been claiming that Russia was invading for weeks. The same people who claimed that a convoy of aid was actually full of soldiers and military equipment, even after it was repeatedly spot checked by journalists and found to contain exactly what Russia claimed it did (food and aid). This is coming just days after Poroshenko dissolved his Parliament [cnn.com] , there were apparently rising protests against conscription into the Ukrainian army [globalresearch.ca] , and the separatists were able to make progress.

Just to make things even more complicated: simultaneous with the claim that Russian troops are crossing into Ukraine, RT is claiming that Ukrainian troops crossed into Russia, in order to defect [rt.com] , and the Ukranian government admits this.

This comment on the Guardian story [theguardian.com] (which incidentally is much less biased than this Slashdot article and presents this as an accusation by Kiev) is what got me to look for these stories and I think interesting enough to quote in full:

Nothing really to explain. Ukraine troops, left without leadership and provisions, have been deserting and losing ground all week. Now that people are demonstrating in Kiev calling for Poroshenko's resignation, he's calling invasion.

- Close to 2,000 Ukraine combatants have put down their guns and asked for asylum in Russia.
- In the last 4 or 5 days, the DPR army has encircled and captured more than 7,000 troops, and all the hardware they possessed.
- On the 24th we all saw thousands of these defeated troops marched through Donesk city centre.

Now they have close to 80 tanks, and various other armored vehicles, all acquired from defeated Ukraine troops, and are sweeping over eastern Ukraine.

Poroshenko was given billions of dollars, and some how failed to pay pensions, salaries, or to send adequate supplies to the forces. He's losing this war, that's all.

Re:Alternate views (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775735)

You do realize Moscow pays people to post in these forums right?

Mod parent down for lying (4, Informative)

Prune (557140) | about 2 months ago | (#47775759)

what we have is actually only quotes from Kiev

The BBC and many other outlets have published NATO confirmations that at least 1000 Russian soldiers have entered Ukraine in this invasion. This directly contradicts your ludicrous claim, but you already knew that.

Re:Alternate views (1)

ZouPrime (460611) | about 2 months ago | (#47775793)

> This is coming just days after Poroshenko dissolved his Parliament [cnn.com], there were apparently rising protests against conscription into the Ukrainian army [globalresearch.ca], and the separatists were able to make progress.

> RT is claiming that Ukrainian troops crossed into Russia, in order to defect [rt.com], and the Ukranian government admits this.

Not sure why you think it's the "other side of the story”. It has nothing to do with the story. Some elements of the Ukraine military may be defecting AND Russia may be invading. These are not mutually exclusive claims.

WMDs! (4, Funny)

skaralic (676433) | about 2 months ago | (#47775521)

Finally they will be able to find those WMDs that the Ukranians are hiding!

Baltics are next if the West fails to respond (3, Informative)

schwit1 (797399) | about 2 months ago | (#47775527)

Appeasement only makes the aggressor more aggressive.

"I consider this an invasion." (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47775621)

It's good that your wrong opinion doesn't matter and certainly doesn't influence policy. Russia is looking-out for their own people that are oppressed by the Republican-style neoNazis that now rule Ukraine. It is a good thing when people fight against Nazis, but here on /. the Nazis get a lot of support. Even the OP supports them with his "invasion" nonsense. It's defense. You wouldn't call the police invaders when they enter a home when the home owner is being beaten by someone who broke in to beat the homeowner for being black. That is what this is about. The Urkainian monsters are racists. They hate the Russians and want them to die.

Inevitable (5, Insightful)

hsthompson69 (1674722) | about 2 months ago | (#47775649)

Once you appear weak, and unwilling to stand for your "red lines", your competition simply won't take you seriously anymore.

Nothing Obama (or the international community for that matter) is willing to do will aver Russia from its course. At this point, the questions to be settled will be around just how much of Ukraine manages to stay independent at all.

While people may have been all pissy about Bush, unilateral wars, and Team America World Police, the fact of the matter is that it was better than the alternative. "America, Fuck Yeah" sure looks better than "America, Fuck No" at this point.

Probably lies again. Just give it a few days. (0)

powerpopolon (1781920) | about 2 months ago | (#47775663)

If Russia really is invading Ukraine they should be in Kiev in a few days. And there will be nothing the U.S/E.U/NATO. can do short of a full nuclear strike on Russia.

So just wait a few days. If by then Russian tanks are in Kiev, or if there is a thermonuclar war and we are all dead, we then can conclude this story was true.
If not, it is a lie, just like all the other stories about Russian invasion since the beginning of the civil war in Ukraine turned out to be.

Truth is probably the Russians are non-officially helping the rebels with weapons and "volunteers", just like the U.S/E.U/NATO are unofficially helping Kiev with weapons and mercenaries.

Give them Crimea they said.. (1)

js3 (319268) | about 2 months ago | (#47775743)

The west must go all out on sanctions. Gonna happen sooner or later.. and later is always bad.

well, at least (1)

superwiz (655733) | about 2 months ago | (#47775821)

Putin asked Russian parliament to withdraw its authorization of use of military forces on Ukrainian territory. And the parliament accommodated the request. So legally, there is no Russian troops in Ukraine. These must all be "self-defense" units. Oh, and if anyone in the UN believes that, I would be happy to show them a bridge that they can buy about 2-3 miles south of the UN building.
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