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151 comments

Does this one (-1, Offtopic)

SpanishInquisition (127269) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385827)

contains nude pics of Heidi Wall?

Re:Does this one (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385912)

I don't know; by geek standards she's all right (I wouldn't kick her out of bed), but she's hardly someone I would pine away hoping for nude picks.

Booorrrinnngg (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385833)

zzzzzzzz who the fuck cares

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Stephen King, author, dead at 54 (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385836)


I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi writer Stephen King was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

Stephen King, author, undead at 54.01 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386090)

I just heard some good news on CBC Radio 1, Classics and Beyond.
Stephen King, author of the song "Stand By Me" and
all of the ST:TNG episodes that featured Wesley Crusher,
was found undead in his home soon after he was found
dead there. He is a zombie now and he is roaming the
Maine countryside looking for brains to devour etc.
He was last seen lurching through a field toward
a beautiful sunset and then he tripped over a wooden
fence but he got up again, so he's alright.
Anyway, if you have any spare brains, PLEASE GIVE!

Heh... (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385867)

I just read the first paragraph about how functional languages have too many parenthesis, and OO languages have to many dots (although OO languages have operator overloads, but that's a whole other arguement).

What's funny is first, he overuses the $ sign like mad, and perl is so well known to be unreadable.


OT: Did you guys see the online petition to fire Jon Katz [petitiononline.com] ? Somebody has brass....

Re:Heh... (1)

kilgore_47 (262118) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385948)

What's funny is first, he overuses the $ sign like mad, and perl is so well known to be unreadable.
I bet you're just bitter because you don't understand it.
Why don't you go read one of the numerous "learning perl" pages and come back when you understand the subject your talking about.

OT: Did you guys see the online petition to fire Jon Katz [petitiononline.com]? Somebody has brass....
Wow... 22 names! I guess you showed them!
I'd sugest if you care so much about katz you go disable him in your prefs. The option is there, you just need an account. Seems like you'd have an account since you care so much about /. you are making petitions about it, but whatever....

Re:Heh... (1)

Guillaume Ross (517391) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385964)

What the HELL is wrong with Katz? I'm so fucking tired of people bashing Katz even though they are probably only stinky didn't wash since 3weeks Diablo2 addicts who read slashdot between two 48hours non-stop games. If you don't like it, DON'T FUCKING READ IT DAMNIT.

Re:Heh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386003)

I enjoy the topics he creates, but he uses journal techniques to talk to a layman audience instead of a techie audience, which makes for a painful read.

And as I said before, I didn't make the petition, just noticed it.

Re:Heh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385984)

*whistle* wow... I musta hit a soft spot for you to get so ticked.

As far as learning Perl, I was using Perl (complex data structures and advanced scripting, nothing tame) from just before 5 came out for a couple of years. Nice little scripting language. Better than shell scripting, but not a good language, maybe for prototyping...

But C++ was what I enjoyed, and I'm employed as a Java Consultant right now. Trust me, if I wrote a nice readable program in all three languages, theres no doubt that it would look nice in the OO languages than perl (especially if I used OO in perl, which BLOWS).

And I didn't come up with the petition, just noticed it and thought I'd mention something.

Maybe you shouldn't judge all AC's as trolls? And maybe you should calm down. You're gonna give yourself a coronary.

Re:Heh... (1)

jiheison (468171) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386066)

Trust me, if I wrote a nice readable program in all three languages, theres no doubt that it would look nice in the OO languages than perl (especially if I used OO in perl, which BLOWS).

It would look nicest in VB! Not much of a way to judge languages.

Re:Heh... (2)

sbeitzel (33479) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386044)

What's funny is first, he overuses the $ sign like mad, and perl is so well known to be unreadable.
I bet you're just bitter because you don't understand it.
Wow, touchy much, kilgore? In point of fact, when I read Larry's comment about functional languages overusing parentheses and OO languages overusing . I immediately thought, "Nu? So in Perl 6 we won't have to use $ in front of EVERY SINGLE VARIABLE?"

And as to perl's infamous illegibility, it's true that the code's readability has a lot to do with the author and only a bit to do with the language. But I'll tell you right now that most of the perl fanatics I've met and all of the perl coders with whom I've worked came to the language from little or no programming experience. This means that nearly all the code I (and they) encountered was written by someone who had, at the time of authorship, only the vaguest of notions about legibility.

Remember, dude, just because you like a particular thing doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws.

Re:Heh... (2)

el_nino (4271) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386078)

Most of the Perl coders you have experienced might have been bad, but that says nothing about whether Perl is good or bad. If whatever language you prefer suddenly gets an influx of really poor programmers, will you switch?

Re:Heh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386379)


OK genius, you don't have to use a $ in front of "EVERY SINGLE VARIABLE" in Perl 5. Ever heard of arrays or hashes? The $ sign has a purpose - to distinguish variables from arrays and hashes.

Re:Heh... (1)

bADlOGIN (133391) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386027)

Generally, operator overloading is just syntatical sugar and is not strictly an OO language feature. Heck, Perl even supports it.
I think Java did well to leave it alone with the exception of String class, but that was one of those peer presure things. One could even deal without it in the Strings class.

Functional languages and parentheses (2, Informative)

V.P. (140368) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386553)

Actually, not all functional languages use parentheses; that's just Lisp & friends. In modern functional languages like Haskell [haskell.org] , you end up using fewer parentheses (and other punctuation) than in C, Python, or Perl.

For example, Haskell parses f 0 + f 1 as: f(0) + f(1) (In a less obvious way, it also parses f g x as f(g, x), but that's another story...)

Re:Functional languages and parentheses (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386561)

f 0 + f 1 as: f(0) + f(1)

I'm sure that's nice and useful for you, but personally I think that having the parameters roped off within parens is an example of good syntactic sugar...

brave gnu world (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385870)

develop this [opensourceworks.com] . no, really. includes a year's free hosting.

HAHAHA. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385872)

I am homosexual.

This post is early! (-1)

Pr0n K1ng (160688) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385875)

Get it in ya!

There was a bomb threat at my school today. They closed down the school, and we had to go home early. With tuition fees being so expensive, I hope they reimburse me for my missed education time...

News Flash #@ +1 ; Informative @# (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385876)

Iraq , not Afghanistan.

Re:News Flash #@ +1 ; Informative @# (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386166)

Nice try, though.

How I long for this function (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385879)

How long will it be before every possible program will be encoded into Perl's executable? Start with all possible bytes and pair them together then come up with some system of compressing them. Repeat until any program can be written by typing:

#!perl -w
use World;
World::a;

Hey Muslim pigs! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385881)

Hahaha you dirty, filty, smelly, circumsized, muslim pigs who are running this useless website. Look t This Picture [homestead.com] and get ready to pss in your pants along with your Mohammed (piss be upon him) and your dirty QUEERAN, that tells you that you will have 72 houris and 28 gay boys for sex in heaven.

by the way the israeli's lik to kill muslims and so do WE, hey pathan gay power, WE HINDU'S ARE THE MANLIEST, READ THE ARTICLES ON THIS WEBSITE ABOUT THE MUSLIM GENOCIDE, AND HOW WE LOVE TO HARASS AND RAPE MUSLIM WOMEN,

We created pakistan for you bastards and we will not rest till each and every muslim motherr fucker is wiped out of INDIA.

JAI HINDU RASHTRA(brahmans, dalits, kshatriya, vaishnav's, buddhists, jain's, sikhs)

WUAHHAHAHAHA wuahahhahahaha later loserssss!!!!

Michael Sims, professional faggot (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385893)

Michael Sims says:
Too bad we aren't learning from the British and Soviet mistakes.
Right, Michael, and you would know this precisely how? Particularly given the fact that the US hasn't DONE anything yet.

I understand, you KNOW the US hasn't learned from the experience of the British and Soviets because of your privileged access to the top secret briefings going on in Washington. Nice to know that the crack Slashdot editorial team has top secret, eyes only access.

Oh, right, forgive me. You are relying on your vast military experience. You numerous years in the Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines. Your high rank. I forget, did you retire as an Admiral, or as a General? Or was it both?

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm mistaken. You are relying on the broad, but also deep, education you received on your way to a Ph.D. in both political science and history.

Or is it that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Take me from behind, raw and unlubed'' -- Michael Sims

Re:Michael Sims, professional faggot (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386022)

That was one of the most idiotic things I've seen him say, and that's saying a lot.

Nearly all the Slashdot editors are pretty clueless, but Michael is definitely the worst.

Apoc 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385899)

Will Apocalypse 4 be how Larry slapped OO into perl after he was already done with perl?

Sorry, but I have a big beef on how OO is so badly done in perl.

Re:Apoc 4 (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386000)

then don't use it. fag. Further stupidity from you will result in

$huge_throbbing_gay_cock->shove(
TARGET => $your_ass,
LUBRICANT => "none",
);

Jon Katz #@ +10**30 ; Googlicious @# (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385902)

However, what does Jon Katz, the Slashdot
wannabe uber-cyber-f$ckwit-geek, think about
this?

Waiting in anticipation (Ooops, that's
redundant)

Re:Jon Katz #@ +10**30 ; Googlicious @# (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386263)

"I don't think you're ready for this cause my arse too googlicious" -- The Jon Katz Misquoter Army.

what a waste of time reading that.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385904)

if I had a time machine, I would enforce prefix or postfix notation, make operators on different languages standard and be careful not to overuse any symbol or operator. I don't have a time machine neither does the god of perl (or something.) So you have to stick with existing and familiar operators, whatever they are; unless you want everyone to learn the new language you designed as if they are learning a new class of language. So what is the point in sweating over redesigning something that you should not change anyway? (...and that can be said for all perl 6 design process.)

Re:what a waste of time reading that.. (-1, Offtopic)

Graspee_Leemoor (302316) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386507)

"if I had a time machine, I would enforce prefix or postfix notation, make operators on different languages standard and be careful not to overuse any symbol or operator."

Really? Well, if I had a time machine, I'd go back and fuck Brooke Shields when she was 15.

Did I post that out loud? Burn, Karma, burn!

graspee

Breaking out of your own culture (4, Interesting)

Water Paradox (231902) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385910)

"Breaking out of your culture is also important, because that is how we understand other cultures. As an explicitly multicultural language, Perl has generally done OK in this area, though we can always do better. Examples of cross-cultural exchange among computer cultures include XML and Unicode. (Not surprisingly, these features also enable better cross-cultural exchange among human cultures -- we sincerely hope.)"

It is for statements like this, that I am drawn into studying and using Perl. Many designers try to design a langauge which develops its own internal culture; it becomes static and internally consistent, but not very adventurous. Larry Wall seeks to develop a language which has built-in the fact that we like to explore, making his task more difficult, but a language which moves and flows with the evolution of our culture readily.

Keep up the great work!

Re:Breaking out of your own culture (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386327)

As a linguist, Wall is obviously aware of the fact that natural languages are not planned endeavors, but the outcome of an organic, community based process.

And to your point about the evolution of the Perl culture, I'd like to add that the personal, individual evolution of the programmer is much more evident in Perl. The freedom of expression that Perl allows at the same time places the onus on the coder for generating normative principles against which to evaluate code.

Whew... (1, Troll)

shr3k (451065) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385914)

You had me for a minute there... I thought we had another attack on our country. It's just another (weirdly-titled?) article about PERL.

Re:Whew... (1)

carlos_benj (140796) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386064)

You had me for a minute there... I thought we had another attack on our country. It's just another (weirdly-titled?) article about PERL.

It was the camel that fooled you?

Not a troll (0)

moderate_this (231075) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385917)

The article is intersting, however, I'm begining to get overloaded with too many languages and versions of (in the case of perl). I understand that some languages are better suited for a particular task than others, but within the past couple of years there seems to have been a language explosion. Anyone else starting to get overwhelmed with syntax ?

AYB (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385928)

All your APOCALYPSE are belong to us. Ha ha ha.

the story of my self-castration (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385932)

On August 3, 1997, I decided to castrate myself. At 3:30 pm, I started to prepare my scrotum and testicles to be removed. I banded the scrotum at the top just below the penis. I used rubber bands. (I should have used an elastrator to band the scrotum but since I didn't have one I improvised.) Next I took ice and packed the scrotum and testicles so that I wouldn't be in pain as in prior experimenting with banding them it was extremely painful.

During the next 8 hour period I kept them well iced. While I had them iced I prepared the bathroom with the necessary instruments to remove them with. I got a sharp pair of scissors, bandages, leather shoelace, peroxide, neosporin, clean white towels, sterile needle, mercerized thread, a bowl (to put them in once removed), the telephone and made sure the front door was unlocked (in case of emergency).

At 11:15 pm, I entered the bathroom and prepared myself to remove the scrotum and testicles. I removed the ice packs, took the leather shoelace and wrapped it around the scrotum over the rubber bands to make sure it is extremely tight so as not to bleed excessively.

At 11:30 pm, I took the scissors and started from the left to the right (since I am left-handed) cutting straight across the scrotum. With my right hand I held the scrotum and testicles firmly so that I can cut straightly. When I had successfully removed them I put them in the bowl. I took the peroxide and cleaned the area where the scrotum and testicles once were. I left the area like that for about 45 minutes while I took photographs of what I did. I then went to start stitching the area up when I started to spurt blood due to the leather shoelace and rubber bands slipping. I immediately took the clean white towels and packed the area with them.

I didn't want to take a chance since I was by myself so I called 911 and told them what happened. Soon afterward the ambulance and police arrived. I explained to the EMT's what I did. They took sterile packing and repacked the area. I was then transported to the hospital. The police locked up the house for me since I wasn't able to. (BTW, nothing ever happened with the police department.) In the ambulance the EMT's put an IV in me. The EMT's by the way did take the scrotum and testicles to the hospital as well. Unfortunately they ended up staying at the hospital.

Upon arriving at the hospital, the emergency room doctor called a Urologist to see me after he made sure I wasn't bleeding further excessively. When the Urologist got there, he examined me, the scrotum and testicles. He told me that he wasn't going to reattach the scrotum and testicles. (Which I already knew since they had been dead for so long.) He said that all they were going to do is stop the bleeding and sew me up. He explained that they had to cut a 1" incision on both sides above the penis so they can close the blood vessels. Once they have done that they would removed the bands and shoelace to see what type of damage was done. I waited in the emergency room hallway for over an hour and a half since all the operating rooms were being used.

At 2:00 am on August 4th, I was wheeled into the operating room. At 4:30 am I was wheeled out into the recovery room. I was then moved to the surgical intensive care unit at 5:30 am where I was still hooked up to an IV. For the next 24 hours I was kept on antibiotics being put in my IV. Later, in the morning, the Urologist came in with the medical students. He told me that I almost cut into the urethra and that if I did I would leak urine for the rest of my life. I laughed at him and told him he was full of shit because when they do the sex change surgery they cut, shorten and relocate the urethra.

In the afternoon, a shrink was sent in to evaluate me. I thought fast and gave a rational explanation of why I did it. When I was finished He told me I was very much aware of what I did and not psychotic and knew what I was doing.

The next morning after the last antibiotic was finished in my IV, the IV was removed and all that I needed to do was urinate twice and each had to be a good amount. Later in the afternoon I was dismissed from the hospital.

When I got home my Master at the time took pictures of me. He was very upset as I had done the castration while He was out of town. He didn't want me castrated at all. I spent a month recouperating at home. At the end of the month I was pretty much healed up. My Master for the rest of the time I was with Him punished me for what I did.

I don't recommend anyone doing what I did especially by yourself. If you do decided to try it make sure someone else is with you and use an elastrator NOT rubber bands and leather shoelace like I did. I have a medical background which is why I did it by myself. Also research what you are going to do so that you know what you are doing for sure.

My next project will be getting the penis removed which is more complicated because of 8 blood vessels in the penis of which 6 are major ones where you can bleed to death if not careful. This is the true way a slave should be. Neither male nor female just an it.

Re:the story of my self-castration (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385992)

This is the true way a slave should be. Neither male nor female just an it.

You are pathetic. If you were really serious, you would cut open your skull and remove the parts of your brain that have to do with male versus female behavior. This can easily be done with self surgery due to the lack of nerves in the brain. While not all areas of the brain have been mapped, there is definitely enough knowledge to be able to remove a lot of the higher brain functions so that you can be a proper slave.

Come back when you've made a decent attempt. Until then, you're an amature.

Re:the story of my self-castration (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386513)

As one AC to another I would like to point out that your inability to spell is matched only by your naive view of physiological psychology.

Re:the story of my self-castration (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386011)

You've removed your testicles. WHY?!?!?!

Re:the story of my self-castration (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386313)

His name is CmdrTaco and his master is RMS. Do you need (or want) any more?

keeping track of ops..? (2)

_Mustang (96904) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385940)

Perl gets around some of these problems by keeping track of whether it is expecting an operator or a term. As it happens, a unary operator is simply one that occurs when Perl is expecting a term. So Perl could keep track of a unary = operator, even if the human programmer might be confused.

This seems to be a seriously smart way to do sytax checking. Is this drawn from an existing implementation in a different language or is it a new development that he thought up?

Speaking from my own experience as a non-developer coder, I'd love to see more of this kind of "artificial" intelligence in programming languages. I really love the power of languages such as c/c++ but keeping track of every possible way I can fsk stuff up is just impossible. I definately think having more checks in place (within reasonable limits) would certainly make for better code all around.

Re:keeping track of ops..? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386059)

what the hell is a "non-developer coder"?

Re:keeping track of ops..? (3, Interesting)

Ian Bicking (980) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386127)

Well, there's not really anything novel in what he's talking about. Almost all languages do the same thing. Consider these two expressions:

5 - 3
5 + - 3

The first "-" relates to subtraction. The second one relates to negating a number. Those are two different kinds of operations, and those are considered two different operators. You can tell the two apart, because in the first one when you encounter "-" you are looking to extend the expression; while in the second when you encounter "-" you are looking for a second term to go after "+".

You could do the same thing with "=", but that sort of thing can get confusing. Imagine an expression $x = =$y (quite different from $x == $y !)

Imagine (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385943)

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try.
No hell below us,
Above us, only sky.
Imagine all the people
Living for today.

Concatenating strings (4, Insightful)

seanadams.com (463190) | more than 12 years ago | (#2385960)

He stresses the importance of good huffman coding, then goes on to change the string concatenation operator "." to a three character sequence " _ "

...instead of:

$a . $b . $c

you'll say:

$a _ $b _ $c


String concatenation is such a commonly used perl feature that it deserves a single character operator. Discriminating between operators by the existence of white space before/after the character is an incredibly ugly kludge. Larry seems to admit it, too: This is to be construed as a feature

At least we don't have to use "+", like in JavaScript!

Re:Concatenating strings (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385995)

I'm curious, what's wrong with "+" as a concatenator? It was good enough for Kemeny & Kurtz.

Re:Concatenating strings (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386009)

'a'+'b' = 'c'?
'a'+'b' = "ab"?

Your comment violated the postercomment compression filter. Comment aborted

Re:Concatenating strings (2)

John Miles (108215) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386119)

I'm really not interested in using any language in which 'a'+'b'='c' is true. Maybe that's just me, though.

Re:Concatenating strings (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386134)

The only logical answer for 'a' + 'b' would be 'Ã'.

No, result should depend on types of operands (3, Informative)

SMN (33356) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386279)

'a'+'b' = 'c'?
'a'+'b' = "ab"?
No, the results of this should rely on the type of the operands, as it does with numerical values in C and C++ and most C++ classes. Keep in mind that single quotes denote a character (really an 8-bit ASCII value), and double quotes indicate a string (usually zero-terminated):

'a' + 'b' = 'Ã'
(char and char results in another char by adding their ASCII values)

"a" + 'b' = "ab"
(string and char results in a string by concatenation)

'a' + "b" = "ab"
(char and string -- order does not matter, so see string and char above)

"a" + "b" = "ab"
(string and string results in a string by concatenation)

To summarize, if a string is involved, then the char(s) is (are) promoted up to string(s) and the result depends on concatenation. If all operands are chars, then no promotion occurs and they are added by ASCII value.

This is similar to the numerical addition rules of C, C++, and a number of similar languages. One simple example: If an int and a float are added, the int is promoted to be a float and the result is a float. If an int and an int are added, the result is an int and must by cast (either explicitly or implicitly) in order to be a float value.

I'm not too familiar with Perl, but this seems to be the most sensible behavior. If I'm missing something and there's a valid reason not to use an addition sign for concatenation, please reply and let me know.

Re:No, result should depend on types of operands (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386390)

No, the results of this should rely on the type of the operands,

The type of operands here is scalar. So how are you going to make the results depend on the type of operand (scalar) when Perl's only operand type which makes sense here is scalar?

Re:No, result should depend on types of operands (1)

Eric E. Coe (2252) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386396)

Well, first of all, there are no "character quotes" in perl (unlike C). The single quote indicates no interpolation of the string, while double quotes indicates interpolation (think Bourne shell). You have to use ord (or unpack) to get the binary value of the first char of a string.

Strictly speaking, only two characters are required for the underscore operator in many cases, because disambiguation between the operator and a trailing underscore is more of an issue:

$c = $a _$b;
Should be ok, I guess. But not a good idiom.

Of course, this is based on my knowledge of Perl 5. I havn't been able to keep track of the proposed changes to Perl 6 - there is some very wierd stuff going on there. I suspect there will be a large learning curve to transition to it when it is finished and released.

also too bad underscore requires pressing shift (2)

Preposterous Coward (211739) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386242)

one of the nice things about the dot is that it's a single keystroke. the underscore may be a single character, but (at least on English) keyboards it requires two keystrokes.

of course perl has such extensive string interpolation and other capabilities that this doesn't strike me as a humongous problem.

I, too, hate the whitespace kludge, but then i've always put whitespace around my dots too because print $this . $that just seems more readable to me than print $this.$that, which looks disturbingly like some kind of slightly funky method call.

mod (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2385979)

Only a cock gobbling fag would moderate this post down.

As I sheepishly back away... (4, Interesting)

hillct (230132) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386001)

I never really thought about how valuable perl really is. I use it constantly. I use it based on the syntactic rules set fourth in the cammel book. I never considered evaluating changes to the language (well, not to any great degree anyway. While I find Larry Wall's series of articles interesting, I just can't get excited about changing the language in it's next incarnation. It works. It's an effective tool. That's good enough to me. I'm not saying don't change it, so much as in it's role as a tool I find it valuable, but when given the opportunity to provide feedback on how to change it I'm at a loss.

Now, I consider my job to be 'Intranet Systems Arhitect' as distinct from 'Programmer'. Perhaps that's why I can't get excited about changing a tool I've come to depend on in it's current form. Perhaps true programmers might find the prospect fascinating. perhaps you could liken it to the difference between an army officer and a gunsmith. While both make use of guns at various times, only the gunsmith is inclined to take the gun apart, examine it and make a better one.

Or perhaps I'm just not showing the proper community spirit, and I should dive in and offer my two cents on how to make the language better. Maybe I'm just lazy (then again, isn't that why perl is such a great language...)

--CTH

Re:As I sheepishly back away... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386567)

It's disappointing that the previous post is being considered a troll. A good point is being made there. While systems programers find the construction of a language fascinating, there are many who simply find it to be a valuable tool. I for one would use it in any case regardless of weather I was given an opportunity to influence it's growth and evolution.

Larry is always interesting (3, Interesting)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386004)

Regardless of your opinion of perl, I find Larry's writings to be consistently insightful and although the humor os a bit corny, somewhat amusing.

How perl 6 will fare is another issue. The language is going to change radically - will developers follow Larry into perl 6, just use perl 5 compatibility mode, or move on altogether?

Re:Larry is always interesting (2)

jallen02 (124384) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386115)

Im just not sure how practical it is.. well see..

Jeremy

Re:Larry is always interesting (1)

schwap (191462) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386163)

Im just not sure how practical it is.. well see..

If I could I would mod this up to Funny.

Re:Larry is always interesting (1)

jallen02 (124384) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386335)

<g>
Okay I know its corny but it just seemed to fit... rr ee dd uu nn dd aa nn tt can be funny some days ;)

Jeremy

Re:Larry is always interesting (3, Funny)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386225)


Is this the same -Wall whose name scrolls past so many times when you recompile your kernel?

The Apocalypse after the Apocalypse after the... (1, Redundant)

Catskul (323619) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386024)

Does anyone see the irony in having a third Apocalypse, let alone a second :)

Re:The Apocalypse after the Apocalypse after the.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386053)

The standard response would be to have a look at the actual meaning of "Apocalypse".

Re:The Apocalypse after the Apocalypse after the.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386068)

No. Irony is dead, IIRC.

Re:The Apocalypse after the Apocalypse after the.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386086)

Jesus Fucking Christ, will you PLEASE learn what irony [dictionary.com] means??? It does !NOT! mean "humor", as in "does anyone see the humor in having a third Apocalypse...". It does !NOT! mean "contradiction", as in "does anyone see the contradiction in having a third Apocalypse".

If you don't know what it means, don't use the fucking word.

Out!

Re:The Apocalypse after the Apocalypse after the.. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386286)

Your getting upset at the original poster's attempt at humor is quite ironic!

Re:The Apocalypse after the Apocalypse after the.. (1)

coyul (119455) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386124)

Does anyone see the irony in having a third Apocalypse, let alone a second :)

Not if you understand that apocalypse means 'revelation' (from the greek apokalypto, to reveal) and that the only reason its connoted with the end of the world is because of the similarly-titled last book of the bible...

Perl trying to outgrow its niche (3, Interesting)

Starship Trooper (523907) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386042)

Let's face it, perl is absolutely great for its original intention - fast, easy, write-and-forget scripting. But as I see the plans for Perl 6 [perl.org] unfold, one thought comes to my mind - Yuck. The language they propose is bloated and convoluted beyond words; it's clearly evident that Wall and his fellow "designers" are struggling vainly to make Perl "grow up" -- something that it has absolutely no need to do. There [sun.com] are [ioccc.org] other [python.org] languages [microsoft.com] out there to fill the other niches; languages which try to do everything [att.com] doom themselves to failure. Ambition kills.

Troll?! (0, Troll)

Joe Groff (11149) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386190)

The original poster makes a good point. Please moderators, don't mod something down just because it isn't all positive! That is the sort of stereotypical behavior that gives Slashdot so much bad press. Moderation was designed to make this site better, so please moderate in order to do so.

</rant> Sorry, it just bugs me to see some of the silly moderations being done these days.

operators (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386070)

larry proposed an operator that does "defined($a) ? $a : $b"... he's probably going to get permanently banned from p5p for that

Limerick (2, Funny)

575 (195442) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386118)

There once was a hacker named Wall
To maintain his own scripts, his downfall
He released to the world
A wonder named Perl
You can write code, but never recall!

perl (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386123)

How can I use perl to get more cocks shoved up my ass?

Not a good title (1, Troll)

roystgnr (4015) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386150)

I've never heard of "The Apocalypse" before, and I'm sure it was a pretty good title for an article a month ago...

But today, when I see "Apocalypse 3" in a link from a previous story... I wasn't sure whether to click to read the story, or get up to check for mushroom clouds outside the window.

I'm such a nerd... I didn't get up.

Re:Not a good title (3, Informative)

Matchstick (94940) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386302)

See the definition:
Apocalypse \A*poc"a*lypse\, n. [L. apocalypsis, Gr. ?, fr. ? to uncover, to disclose; ? from + ? to cover, conceal: cf. F. apocalypse.] 1. The revelation delivered to St. John, in the isle of Patmos, near the close of the first century, forming the last book of the New Testament. 2. Anything viewed as a revelation; a disclosure.
Or read the first paragraph of the first apocalypse [perl.com] :
People get scared when they hear the word Apocalypse, but here I mean it in the good sense: a Revealing. An Apocalypse is supposed to reveal good news to good people. (And if it also happens to reveal bad news to bad people, so be it. Just don't be bad.)

angst (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386193)

seems like an awful lot of anguish for a scripting language...

Those Bums know everything... (1)

DeltaStorm (118517) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386250)

I guess that bum I saw downtown the other day was right... The Apocalypse was coming...

Sweet! Hyperoperators! (2, Interesting)

Fixer (35500) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386266)

I like the way Perl6 is going, I have to say. Though I kind of agree with others, changing
$a.$b.$c
to
$a _ $b _ $c
kind of bites. Then again, this could also be looked at as readability enforcement. Common cases:

$a = $b.$c;
print "Hello: ".$you."\n";

becomes

$a = $b _ $c;
print "Hello: " _ $you _ "\n";

It is definitely more readable, but I dislike significant whitespace. shrug
But as to the rest of the proposed changes, I can't wait.

Re:Sweet! Hyperoperators! (2, Informative)

OddHackGEA (259563) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386296)

> $a = $b.$c;
> print "Hello: ".$you."\n";
>
> becomes
>
> $a = $b _ $c;
> print "Hello: " _ $you _ "\n";

Or just

$a = "$b$c";
print "Hello: $you\n";


like you can do right now.

I can't tell yet whether "$a:b" will change, but presumably the Perl5 clarification "${a}:b" would still work.

Re:Sweet! Hyperoperators! (2)

ichimunki (194887) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386582)

I think it sounds annoying as heck, because I tend to use a lot of _ in my variable names. Things like $foo_bar are a lot more readable than $fooBar, imho-- and allows me to save caps for other purposes like constants and the occasional global.

another one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386269)

WHAT!? A 3rd apocalypse? Yes I did miss the first and second? What were they? Napoleon and Hilter? huh?

[OT] programming riddle, HELP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386283)

Programmers: In Java or pseudo-code, how will I code a program that finds 4 numbers
that both add up to 7.11 and multiply to 7.11?

(a + b + c + d == 7.11 && a * b * c * d == 7.11)

Thanks VERY MUCH for any help, please email to jhansen1061@hotmail.com

Re:[OT] programming riddle, HELP! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386529)

specialist equation solving software or simple iteration if you have a very long time to spare.

More eclectic, less practical... (3, Interesting)

forehead (1874) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386310)

Before I begin, I know that Perl is Larry's baby and he can do with it what he likes. But I wouldn't be so vocal about this if I didn't care. ;-) That said...

Maybe it is just me, but the more and more I see what is going on in the perl world, the less and less I want to have anything do with it. The whole
hyper-operator conecpt is a good example. My thoughs? Just use a fscking for loop. That is what they were designed to do. Larry seems to be going through *great* pains to include as many bizzare syntactic short cuts as you can reasonably string characters on the keyboard to represent. This is not terribly innovative.

It's starting to diverge from "Practical extraction and report(ing) language"
and towards "pathetically Eclectic rubbish lister". Personally, I aim a little more towards practical. That was what made it so popular to begin with. Make difficult things easy and hard thing possible was a nice concept. Perl 5 did that well. IMNSHO, Perl 6 seems to be making 100 ways to do the same simple thing all so the developer can opt to use the method with the verbosity level he/she desire, and not making the hard things any easier.

</rant>

Re:More eclectic, less practical... (3, Informative)

Fixer (35500) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386350)

Okay. All languages that are Turing complete are equivalent, as you well know. So why do we need more than one language?

Re:More eclectic, less practical... (1)

forehead (1874) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386388)

Convenience. Certain problems are easier to express with a different paradigm (oo vs imperative vs functional, etc). Even concepts within a language class have benefit (e.g. polymorphisim and overloading in oo languages). What I see Larry spending a lot of his time on does nothing to change this. It just gives programmers multiple ways to say (a > 10 && a 20). I say BFD to that. Pick a reasonable syntax and go with it, unless there is a compelling reason to change (so far I haven't seen any reasons more compelling than I'm lazy, let me type it this way instead).

Re:More eclectic, less practical... (1)

Fixer (35500) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386425)

Well, hyperoperators seem to be a very convenient way to deal with operations on matrices and tables, no? Makes vector math much more succinct.

I will agree, alot of the proposed changes don't seem to have alot of immediate application to what I do personally, but I admit their utility.

But here's an idea in which we can both be happy: Don't use Perl 6. Continue on with 5. Considering the immense amount of v5 code, I doubt highly that it will all suddenly disappear. In fact, I recall from a previous Apocalypse that Larry mentioned the idea of allowing all existing Perl5 syntax, until you use a piece of new syntax.

Yeah, it's not the greatest of solutions. Perhaps what will happen will resemble C/C++, with many continuing to use the old for quite a while yet.

Re:More eclectic, less practical... (3, Insightful)

Mr_Huber (160160) | more than 12 years ago | (#2386420)

Why, then, does Perl include a 'foreach' operator when a 'for' loop will do just fine? Efficiency. By giving the language a hint as to what you are going to do, it can iterate through the list faster and with fewer resources. I expect that when the implementation arrives, we will find the hyper operators offer a not-insignificant efficiency gain over a simple for loop.


The point of Perl is not necessarily to provide more than one way to do things, but to make certain types of programming much easier than with other languages. There are things I do in Perl in an hour that would be a week undertaking in C or C++. If enough users are calling for these seemingly esoteric features, add them. The more expressive the language, the more useful.

Re:More eclectic, less practical... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386424)

'foreach' and 'for' are identical when used in a 'foreach' context.

KINDLY OPEN YOUR FSCKING TAGS!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386505)

I had to go back and re-interpret your whole damn comment when I got to the /rant tag.

Pickin My Nose (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2386537)



I picked my nose 3 times in a row

NOW ITS BLEEDING

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