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MSN Forces Outlook POP

CmdrTaco posted more than 12 years ago | from the you-gotta-be-kidding dept.

Microsoft 729

Phoenix-D writes: "Qwest.net, my Phoenix-area DSL provider and ISP, recently decided to hand over their ISP buisness to MSN. No huge deal, right? Well, check out this blurb: 'Due to the Microsoft anti-spam initiative, customers are restricted to use their mail services. Therefore, POP3 service is only available when using MSN Explorer, Microsoft Outlook, or Microsoft Outlook Express.'" Awesome. Microsoft's Anti-Spam initiative forces POP users to use the primary sender of mail worms.

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Smashing Pumpkins (-1)

TRoLLaXoR (181585) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441303)

Smashing Pumpkins

No, not the altrock band, but the actual act of forcefully destroying large winter squash! To maximize pumpkin-collection and pumpkin-smashing, you should have friends, a car, flashlights, black clothing, and a good idea of the layout of the area (access and escape routes).

The Clothing

Wearing black is a no-brainer. Hot pink and white jumpsuits are inappropriate for stealing anything, let alone pumpkins. (However, if there is to be a decoy in your group...) Black jogging pants and hoodies can be had for $8 to $15 a piece depending on where they were purchased. I would recommend plain jogging pants over the swishies-- and generics over the name brands. For one, you don't want to make more noise than you have to if you are going to grab pumpkins from a lit-up front porch. Second, you're likely to run, fall, drip pumpkin guts, and get dirty in general so why pay the extra $$$ on name-brand shit that is no better than the cheaper generics. Your call.

One minor point to think of is, should you end up in civilization, you may want to look normal. So wear or carry clean, less criminal-looking clothes. A Denny's breather or a run-in with Mr. Occifer may be times your clothes can give your activities away.

The Car

If your aim is to collect over a dozen beautiful orange orbs and you drive a Geo Metro, forget it. Get someone with a real car. A truck with a cab, an Eagle, a hatchback.

If you're going to be pulling from the same neighborhood, you'll want a quiet car. Shitty loud cars that wake people up from deep sleeps are OK if you're going to stop once and go on to another area, but why add the pressure? I prefer collecting pumpkins as care-free as possible. Which leads to my next point, the simple pumpkin-aquirement algorithm.

Have your driver drop you off at a certain point and then drive ahead to the next stop sign and wait to pick you up. In a given suburban block, there'll be just about a carryable limit of pumpkins (with a bookbag). You can avoid backtracking (innefficient and dangerous) in this manner. Not rocket science, but something to keep in mind. If you live in the country, you don't have to worry about this, as houses are farther off the road. Generally the suburbs are the best place to get pumpkins, so if you live in the city or country, go to the 'burbs.

The Tools

Flashlights flashlights flashlights. If you do your collecting pre-Halloween, and late at night, there's a good chance things won't be lit up. Thoug letting your eyes adjust to darkness and then working in it is best, there may be times you'll want a light. What's that slime on the pumpkin? Ewww, a big fat fucking SLUG! Gross. Of course arranging pumpkins in the back of the truck or car is aided by light.

Bookbags can aid you on carrying extra pumpkins and also act as a place to store flashlights and extra clothes. Common sense. But since you're reading this you and are considering doing this you probably have none. Anyway, again, black is better than jungle leopard pink and green print Barbie backpacks, but if that's your thing just be prepared to get nicknamed "Gay Fag the Pumpkin Snatch" by your jailmates (yes, police DO arrest and detain pumpkin-snatchers, usually as trespassers, minor thieves, vandals, etc.).

Goat-skin gloves not protect your hands from abrasions caused by pumpkin-shaft spines but also feel soft and retain heat well. Spend the extra $10 and your hands will thank you.

OK. That's all. If you wanna be lazier you can get away with it. This was meant for large (16+) pumpkin-snatching operations. Good luck.

Praise be on high... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441311)

... thou hast granted me fr1st p0st oh lord...

Re:Praise be on high... (-1)

TRoLLaXoR (181585) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441328)

Hahaha

NOt in this story, Coward

It could be worse (2, Funny)

zerofoo (262795) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441314)

They could force everyone to use a MAPI client.

Fool the system? (4, Troll)

Quasar1999 (520073) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441316)

How exactly is this enforced? I'm sure there has got to be someway to get around it, if they allow Outlook to use it, then there has to be some way to fool the system into thinking whatever you are using is outlook... isn't there?

Re:Fool the system? (1)

damiam (409504) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441325)

If I were them, I'd have Outlook use some secret algorithm to generate a message checksum that would be checked by the server. That would probably still be hacked, though.

Re:Fool the system? (2)

yogensha (181588) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441367)

No, this is POP3 we're talking about. The only thing the client does is issue some commands to download mail. The messages are generated by the sender.

Re:Fool the system? (0, Offtopic)

DahGhostfacedFiddlah (470393) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441380)

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Hmm...fits well with
The intelligence of a mob is calculated by taking the lowest individual IQ in the mob, and dividing it by the number of people

Re:Fool the system? (5, Funny)

nick_burns (452798) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441353)

They probably check to see if you're sending out 300 copies of the latest email worm.

Re:Fool the system? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441368)

If MS is RFC compliant (no secret fields that identify the client) they can't enforce it. There is no cliet field in POP3.

I say it is not enforceable and that they're just saying it to force the average user to use MS clients. POP is POP. Try something else and I bet it would work.

Just a guess (3, Informative)

zerofoo (262795) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441401)

I setup outlook express for a friend of mine who uses MSN. It seems microsoft's way of authenticating users is some sort of "secure" authentication. It's a feature called "SPA" or secure password authentication. My guess is that they encrypt the account name and password in a similar way to NT login authentication so the actual name and password never go across the wire.

-ted

Re:Fool the system? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441374)

They are just forcing the use of a MSN email account. This was from the link:

Q: Will I still be able to use my Qwest.net e-mail account after I transition my account to MSN®?

A: No. When you begin the MSN transition process, you will be given the one time option of forwarding your Qwest.net primary e-mail account to your new MSN e-mail address. Additionally, you will have the choice to activate an auto reply feature that automatically sends your new MSN e-mail address back to anyone who sends an e-mail message to your old Qwest.net e-mail address. These e-mail features will be in place for at least 18 months from the date you transition your account to MSN Internet Access

SPA (5, Informative)

oni (41625) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441390)

Outlook uses Secure Password Authentication (SPA). Some weird protocol that only microsoft knows. No other programs that I am aware of support it.

SPA and a guess as to how it works (2, Informative)

zerofoo (262795) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441470)

Further down this post I explained that. I think SPA uses an authentication mechanism similar to NT authentication. Basically it's a token exchange process to encrypt the name and password so the plain text name and password never go across the wire.

-ted

Marketing Ploy? (1, Redundant)

Alien54 (180860) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441397)

Obviously all Microsoft security measures are viewed as another marketing tool.

Microsoft obviously is defining security in terms of the availability of non-Microsoft product. The availability of non-Microsoft product is a threat to the security of the Microsoft Market, and must be stopped at all costs.

See how simple things are when you put customers last?

I do not see how any anti-spam technology could be enforced by specifying a Microsoft email Client. I would need a lot more detailed, unbiased technical data before I trust MS on this one.

None of this "simply trsut me" junque.

Good (2, Funny)

Rombuu (22914) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441321)

Awesome. Microsoft's Anti-Spam initiative forces POP users to use the primary sender of mail worms.

Good... maybe that will force people to apply their damn patches so I quit getting their documents in my mailbox.

Re:Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441377)

I did that exactly, I loaded Linux-Mandrake on all my PC's and saved a bundle of $$ at the same time.

Pashing Mumpkins (-1, Troll)

robvasquez (411139) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441322)

Smashing Pumpkins (Score:-1)
by TRoLLaXoR (trollaxor@mac.com) on Wednesday October 17, @11:12AM (#2441303)
(User #181585 Info | http://homepage.mac.com/trollaxor/ | Last Journal: Wednesday October 17, @10:53AM)
Smashing Pumpkins

No, not the altrock band, but the actual act of forcefully destroying large winter squash! To maximize pumpkin-collection and pumpkin-smashing, you should have friends, a car, flashlights, black clothing, and a good idea of the layout of the area (access and escape routes).

The Clothing

Wearing black is a no-brainer. Hot pink and white jumpsuits are inappropriate for stealing anything, let alone pumpkins. (However, if there is to be a decoy in your group...) Black jogging pants and hoodies can be had for $8 to $15 a piece depending on where they were purchased. I would recommend plain jogging pants over the swishies-- and generics over the name brands. For one, you don't want to make more noise than you have to if you are going to grab pumpkins from a lit-up front porch. Second, you're likely to run, fall, drip pumpkin guts, and get dirty in general so why pay the extra $$$ on name-brand shit that is no better than the cheaper generics. Your call.

One minor point to think of is, should you end up in civilization, you may want to look normal. So wear or carry clean, less criminal-looking clothes. A Denny's breather or a run-in with Mr. Occifer may be times your clothes can give your activities away.

The Car

If your aim is to collect over a dozen beautiful orange orbs and you drive a Geo Metro, forget it. Get someone with a real car. A truck with a cab, an Eagle, a hatchback.

If you're going to be pulling from the same neighborhood, you'll want a quiet car. Shitty loud cars that wake people up from deep sleeps are OK if you're going to stop once and go on to another area, but why add the pressure? I prefer collecting pumpkins as care-free as possible. Which leads to my next point, the simple pumpkin-aquirement algorithm.

Have your driver drop you off at a certain point and then drive ahead to the next stop sign and wait to pick you up. In a given suburban block, there'll be just about a carryable limit of pumpkins (with a bookbag). You can avoid backtracking (innefficient and dangerous) in this manner. Not rocket science, but something to keep in mind. If you live in the country, you don't have to worry about this, as houses are farther off the road. Generally the suburbs are the best place to get pumpkins, so if you live in the city or country, go to the 'burbs.

The Tools

Flashlights flashlights flashlights. If you do your collecting pre-Halloween, and late at night, there's a good chance things won't be lit up. Thoug letting your eyes adjust to darkness and then working in it is best, there may be times you'll want a light. What's that slime on the pumpkin? Ewww, a big fat fucking SLUG! Gross. Of course arranging pumpkins in the back of the truck or car is aided by light.

Bookbags can aid you on carrying extra pumpkins and also act as a place to store flashlights and extra clothes. Common sense. But since you're reading this you and are considering doing this you probably have none. Anyway, again, black is better than jungle leopard pink and green print Barbie backpacks, but if that's your thing just be prepared to get nicknamed "Gay Fag the Pumpkin Snatch" by your jailmates (yes, police DO arrest and detain pumpkin-snatchers, usually as trespassers, minor thieves, vandals, etc.).

Goat-skin gloves not protect your hands from abrasions caused by pumpkin-shaft spines but also feel soft and retain heat well. Spend the extra $10 and your hands will thank you.

OK. That's all. If you wanna be lazier you can get away with it. This was meant for large (16+) pumpkin-snatching operations. Good luck.

mod me up, scotty! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441323)

MS Bad, linux good
proprietary bad, open good

I think it deserves a +5 insightful!

Big Surprise (1)

The_Unforgiven (521294) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441324)

Micro$uck tightens it's grip on faithful customers... I'm not very surprised... :)

I wonder how long until they have their own, seperate internet, just for msn... okay.. I'm just ranting, but really, who is surpised that Microsoft is limiting their customers.

Interesting news though.

Re:Big Surprise (2)

psychalgia (457201) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441428)

I wonder how long until they have their own, seperate internet, just for msn... "

you mean like aol? thats fine, keep em outta myt hair...keep the viruses in msn/net and off my machine!

Re:Big Surprise (1)

The_Unforgiven (521294) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441450)

Hmm... ya know you're right...

lol.. And dumb 'ole me implied it'd be a bad thing.. :)

For all those who defend M$ here. (0, Flamebait)

7-Vodka (195504) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441327)

Another example of M$ behaving like assholes and leveraging their monopoly power to squelch the competition.


How many more would you like?

Crying wolf (1)

junkpunch (514143) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441431)

How is this "leveraging their monopoly power" exactly?

How is this different than say, if Qwest had turned over their ISP business to AOL and AOL required using the AOL client?

uh, isn't pop3 open? (3, Interesting)

O (90420) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441332)

How is this even possible? POP3 is an open standard, and most every client speaks that protocol. To restrict it to one set of clients seems like a futile measure, as clients will just start coming with options to spoof their client ID, just like Opera and iCab can for http.

Re:uh, isn't pop3 open? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441356)

you can restrict it to only certain clients at the firewall with stateful inspection.. that's one way of doing it.

Re:uh, isn't pop3 open? (2)

garcia (6573) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441357)

*I am not saying MS is FORCING this*

If they did though, what's your basis for this statement? How many other "open" ideas has MS gone against and forced w/their own bullshit? ActiveX, Java, etc? Come on, be serious.

Re:uh, isn't pop3 open? (2, Interesting)

Cymbaline (200653) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441379)

POP3 is open. But there's also IMAP. Guess who promotes IMAP? Yup. And IIRC, IMAP allows for sending of mailer type. IIR*incorrectly*, feel free to smite me down.

Re:uh, isn't pop3 open? (1, Insightful)

parc (25467) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441422)

IMAP is a better protocol. Seriously. And it's just as open as POP[23]. For more info, see the RFC.

So now, just because MS likes a protocol, we're not allowed to like/use it?

Microsoft anthrax scare (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441334)

this is in the Breaking News [yahoo.com] section of Yahoo... apparently a letter addressed to Bill Gates contained about a teaspoon of white powder. his secretary opened it, not him, so he's probably still ok.

holy shit (-1, Flamebait)

Hexagram 23 (525021) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441388)

near miss! oh well, maybe they'll just bomb him.

Re:holy shit (1)

Dethboy (136650) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441414)

Never happen.

They'd have to use MSN approved bombs, and of course have to be signed up to Passport before even thinking about sending anything over...

MOD DOWN!!! (0, Troll)

jrwillis (306262) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441424)

Please mod this down due to the fact that it's a goat sex link. Damn trolls.

we'll never stop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441457)

*giggle*

are you sure? (2, Informative)

garcia (6573) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441335)

it says that you have to use POP3. Why wouldn't that include any client that supports POP3? There is nothing in a POP3 transmission that is hidden. If they were really forcing you to use it (which I highly doubt) then you could trick the server into thinking that you are coming from an Outlook client.

Personally I would complain to your ISP about the lack of service for non-MS clients (if this is truly the case).

Re:are you sure? (2)

Coward, Anonymous (55185) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441370)

The linked to FAQ clearly states:

Continue to enjoy POP3 e-mail service, with an option to switch to the world's largest Web-based e-mail service, MSN Hotmail®, via MSN Internet Explorer and get up to nine e-mail screen names for you and the rest of your family. (Due to the Microsoft anti-spam initiative, customers are restricted to use their mail services. Therefore, POP3 service is only available when using MSN Explorer, Microsoft Outlook, or Microsoft Outlook Express.)

Re:are you sure? (2, Interesting)

brer_rabbit (195413) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441448)

But still, unless MS it hijacking the POP3 protocol I don't see how they can enforce what client you use.

Perhaps they meant they only *support* those clients? That I could understand. I certainly don't expect Qwest to walk me through expunging just a single message with VM under xemacs. "Now type Meta-M..."

Re:are you sure? (2)

stilwebm (129567) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441445)

I have seldom used Outlook and do not have a Passport account, but I recall something about Outlook using Passport for authentication when checking MSN email addresses, requiring a client capable of using Passport. Someone care to comment?

what?! (2, Insightful)

verch (12834) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441336)

This is like Exxon saying if you want to use their gas you have to have an Exxon car. Someone please explain to me again why MS's business practices aren't anti-competitive? I won't even get into how oxymoronic it is to push outlook and hotmail as ways to combat spam, worms, etc..

They ARE anti-competitive (Re:what?!) (1)

parc (25467) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441436)

The US courts have agreed that they ARE behaving in an anti-competitive manner. They just disagreed that breaking up the company was an appropriate remedy.

This sucks.... (2)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441337)

Is this going to be MS's new way of stopping Linux from gaining ground? Make a DSL/Cable deal with a provider and force subscribers to use your tools which just so happen to be on your platform exclusively.....Anti-trust violations ad infinitum

What right's infringed here? (1, Troll)

GothChip (123005) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441340)

This may be another example of Microsoft trying to use it's monopoly... but why is this in the Your Rights Onlne section?

Who's rights are being infringed here? Either use their software and stop whining or go find a new ISP.

Re:What right's infringed here? (0, Flamebait)

CaptDeuce (84529) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441441)

Troll fodder.

The right to choose your email client. Using your [ahem] logic, denying black people mortgages is perfectly OK since they can just go another lender, right? Feh to your [scoff] logic.

Re:What right's infringed here? (1)

psychalgia (457201) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441460)

except MS just tried to get rights into SBC, leaving them with a stranglehold on the broadband market if they achieve that. How long is it before business customers like myself will have to forgo using Apache/*nix and start using IIS, because my ISP is owned by MS, and routers are enforcing some code that only IIS produces.

This is absurd. (2)

trilucid (515316) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441343)


All right, this is gonna sound bad. But let's be real here: you can dump always dump your ISP is you disagree with heinous policies. Yes, I know that in some areas there aren't many providers of decent bandwidth (especially recently with DSL companies going buh-bye left and right), but customers have to stand up for their rights on this sort of thing. Unfortunately, given our recent state of affairs in government, the only *effective* way of doing so is making your dollars do the talking.

Of course, there's always other options too. You could always skip the ISP part and just do your email via web hosting service (no, I'm not self-serving here, it's just true). Especially for folks who run a business, this is a good option.

What other ways are there of combating this kind of B.S.? I suspect the good folks over at Netscape and other net software providers aren't going to be too terribly thrilled with this... do any of these companies have workarounds?

Sorry to reply on my own comment... (2)

trilucid (515316) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441468)


Just felt compelled to point out web-based email also. ISP givin' you a hard time? Screw 'em as follows, and make sure to send an email to their PR department letting them know what you think of their support of this sort of idiotic policy.



There it be. Have fun!

With DSL it's different (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441472)


Qwest has a stranglehold on DSL in their areas - you have
to give them at least 50% of the DSL charges, even if you
use another ISP. It is similar to per-processor charges that
Microsoft used to use.

Qwest even goes so low as to "slam" customers away from
other ISP's. It happened to me several times during the
summer. I'm not sure if they targeted me due to Linux or
what.

it ain't POP3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441347)

if you can't use any old POP3 compliant client to connect. therefore, sue them for breach of contract for failing to provide the POP3 service they promised to.

Worm sending (1)

Green Aardvark House (523269) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441350)

Microsoft's Anti-Spam initiative forces POP users to use the primary sender of mail worms.

That's why 1337 scr1p7 k1dd135 everywhere are flocking to Microsoft!

Why is it OK (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441351)

for article comments to be flamebait?

Re:Why is it OK (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441413)

this isn't flamebait, it's informative. you just have to do a little thinking for yourself (i know, it's hard, just try) and realize that this article is letting you know that it's not a good idea to use qwest.

You're not forced to use it (yet) (5, Informative)

DahGhostfacedFiddlah (470393) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441352)

From the article :

Currently, the plan is to transition those customers who:

Have Qwest.net Internet Access using an analog dial-up line, Qwest DSL 256, Qwest DSL Select, or Qwest DSL Deluxe connection and,
Use the Windows operating system.

MAC Customers: MSN is working on a MAC solution for your Internet access needs. Until that time, there will not be any changes to your Qwest.net Internet Access service.


No mention of Linux, but I'd assume they'll treat non-Windows the same (until they have a Mac-only fix, of course).

Hmmm - taking a second look at the capitalization on "MAC", it looks like they don't have a "solution" for anyone using a network card :)

Exceptions (0, Offtopic)

squaretorus (459130) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441358)

Almost every reference to MS in /. is concerned with the monopolistic practices of the company.

Are any of Microsofts business units NOT involved in these practices? Seriously! MS is a big company, you're always going to be able to pick out stuff like this which is absolutely absurdly monopolistic.

Re:Exceptions (1)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441406)

you don't read very closely

try Microsoft Research Turns 10 [slashdot.org] on 5th September

Very, very funny... (4, Funny)

andres32a (448314) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441359)

From the faq on MSN-QWEST (the most hillarious thing i have ever read):

"Q: Why should I transition my service to MSN®?

A: There are many reasons why you should transition your service:

With more than 230 million visitors per month, MSN is available in 33 markets and in 17 languages.
(Source: Jupiter MediaMetrixTM Digital Media Report, April 01 for US, UK, France, Germany, Canada, Australia, Japan, Spain, Brazil, Italy, Switzerland. Data are an aggregation of above listed countries.)
When you upgrade your service, special promotions are available to you.
Quality, reliability and speed.
Technical support, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at no charge!
Continue to enjoy POP3 e-mail service, with an option to switch to the world's largest Web-based e-mail service, MSN Hotmail®, via MSN Internet Explorer and get up to nine e-mail screen names for you and the rest of your family. (Due to the Microsoft anti-spam initiative, customers are restricted to use their mail services. Therefore, POP3 service is only available when using MSN Explorer, Microsoft Outlook, or Microsoft Outlook Express.)
Instant messaging from MSN Messenger Service, the fast growing instant messaging service.
You get more space for your personal Web site from 5 MB to 30 MB.
Easy access to great resources from MSN that help make your life better.
Catch up on the latest news from MSNBC
Listen to your favorite music
Play games
Send instant messages
Create an online photo album for your family
Personalize your home page with weather, sports, news or local events
Shop from the convenience of your home
Invest your money wisely
Search for information
Send online greeting cards
Plan your vacation
Take care of your family's health (This one is amazing)
And, so much more

Re:Very, very funny... (1)

The_Unforgiven (521294) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441400)

I always love how in AOHell commercials they advertise "Instant Messaging"...

I don't use aol... I go Download AIM...
I get more features with it...

So in other words if I pay for it I get less features, if I don't pay for it I get a better program... Love their logic.

Re:Very, very funny... (3, Funny)

Muad'Dave (255648) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441455)


Continue to enjoy POP3 e-mail service, ...

I would submit that if they're using a proprietary authentication scheme, then is ceases to be POP3 access as advertised. Get your state's Attorney General involved as this is a blatant case of interstate fraud.

Even funnier... (4, Informative)

Green Aardvark House (523269) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441471)

From the website:

Q: What does the MSN® and Qwest® alliance mean to me?

A: Under the agreement, MSN will become the preferred Internet Service Provider (ISP) for some Qwest.net Consumer Internet Access customers. Qwest and Microsoft® are working together to provide consumers with best-of-breed MSN content and services via Qwest's Internet infrastructure. Customers will benefit from this joint offering in many ways including...
(emphasis added)

Ummm...according to the Consumer Reports Sept. 2001 issue, MSN was rated as the worst Internet provider.

Nice to see that Microsoft not only squeezes the consumer, limits choice, but also engages in bald-faced lying!!

How? (1)

schmelter_tim (457984) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441364)

If the new service uses POP3, how can they stop you from using a POP3-compliant email client? Some kind of MS-specific extensions?

Embrace and Extend again (1)

mmacdona86 (524915) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441423)

Yes-- a previous thread mentioned that Secure Password Authentication is a Microsoft-specific POP3 extension.

microsoft == spam central (2, Interesting)

jweatherley (457715) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441365)

Microsoft email spam free? I think not!

I opened a hotmail account last week so I could set up an instant messenger account. I made sure that I had unchecked *all* the advertising, pass on your e-mail, useful partners checkboxes. I have *never* used the account and have *never* published the address yet within 24 hours I had a dozen XXX, $$$ emails in the inbox.

already slashdotted? Well how can they tell (5, Interesting)

GlassUser (190787) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441371)

cached at http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Hj0Zy1r9WSc:w ww.qwest.net/nav4/msn/faq.html+&hl=en [google.com]
Well, it loaded now, but it's slow.


Any way, how can the tell what POP3 you're using? And why would POP3 stop spam? Wouldn't SMTP be where the action is? (I'm assuming that's what they mean). Are they looking at headers (easily emulated by spamware, ineffective) or some other signature? And I don't see how this will stop spam, anything like that is easily emulated. More and more stupidity.

minnesota (1)

Maditude (473526) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441373)

I know in the Minneapolis region Qwest sold all their DSL customers to MSN, but gave the people running non-MS operating systems a delay in the switch -- presumably to give them time to switch over to a competitor. Of course, everyone knows that cancelling their Qwest DSL and starting it new at another ISP is fraught with peril.

Re:minnesota (1)

deep13 (157030) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441474)

and for those of us in the TC metro.... visi.com is hands down the best alternative!!!! CHeck them out! Mike Horwath (visi's sysadmin) is Jesus.

Talk about anticompetitive... (5, Interesting)

Logic Bomb (122875) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441376)

I can't imagine a better example of anti-competitive practices. MS is going to force people who never selected them as an ISP to use MS software in a manner that does not at all aid "anti-spam initiatives" and, as the post pointed out, will almost certainly make related problems even worse. How on earth does *anything* related to what client is used to access a POP3 server effect spam??? SMTP would at least seem in the ballpark, but POP?

Easy way to end this... (5, Insightful)

fmaxwell (249001) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441378)

Send them a snail-mail to MSN stating that you are an employee of a firm that makes a commercial e-mail client that competes with Outlook. Ask MSN to provide to you, in writing, a statement about the use of non-Microsoft e-mail clients on MSN. Make sure to suggest that this be handled by their lawyers.

If you want to really get their sphincters to pucker, send a copy to the Justice Department.

I don't get it... (5, Insightful)

UM_Maverick (16890) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441381)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but POP is a way to *retrieve* email. How does the client that you're using to *retrieve* your mail matter when it comes to spam? Granted, OE has some mail filters that can be used, but so do other clients (procmail anyone?).

I could see this being legit if, somehow, it prevented the SENDING of spam...but it seems like, if anything, it could only possibly prevent your receiving it...that's like telling someone...well, i don't know what that's like telling someone, because it just seems ridiculous...

Rights? (1)

simong (32944) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441382)

Don't think so - you've still got the right to vote with your feet and find an ISP that isn't MSN, surely?

Probably (2, Insightful)

Sawbones (176430) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441383)

This is probably - and I do stress probably - one of those "we only support outlook and outlook express" sort of things. I mean technically AT&T@Home only allows Windows9x and Mac machines to use their network, but that sure hasn't stopped me. This way the tech support people only have to know (or deal with) two fairly similar programs.

At least one hopes thats it.

U.S. Gov't, Are You Paying Attention? (1)

Xesdeeni (308293) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441384)

The U.S. Government was absolutely right. It was a bad idea to break M$ into two companies....it should have been broken up into FIVE: Desktop O/S, Server O/S, Portable O/S, Applications, and Services.

We've already seen them use their dominance in almost every one of these sections to force use of another. This is yet another example of using the Services to force use of desktop O/S and applications.

Hey DoJ! Here's a quarter. Go buy a clue!

Xesdeeni

How about #6 ...Micropatch (1)

bubbha (61990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441435)

There's gold in them thar bugs...and somebody's gotta stomp 'em...

if they really wanted to stop spam (5, Interesting)

linuxpng (314861) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441385)

When you sign up for a passport id with a hotmail account they wouldn't sell that address to everyone under the sun.

I signed up for hotmail before MS ever took it over. I never used the email address in any form online, never even had any mail to it. I basically just had it because. After MS took over it litterally filled the account with junk mail.

The answer to this one is easy... (1)

hazehead (316081) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441386)

Find another local ISP (something you should have done in the first place! ;)

If possible, one that isn't owned by Earthlink, AOL or MSN. Maybe there's a small, locally owned provider that would love to provide you with static IP service and lots of other goodies for about the same price.

Re:The answer to this one is easy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441442)

DNS Says the MX is smtp-gw-4.msn.com

One way to find out... (5, Interesting)

Xibby (232218) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441387)

telnet popserver.msn.com 110
user user
pass password
list

Replace popserver.msn.com with the actual pop3 server. I have no clue what it actually is.

Third Party smtp (5, Informative)

CodeMonky (10675) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441389)

They don't allow third party smtp server either. This has caused us aa bit of a hassle as we have a lot of faculty that want to use our mail server to send mail (with authentication of course) but MSN blocks all connections to a third party smtp server and if you don't use a @msn.com type address as the From it doesn't allow it either.

Re:Third Party smtp (2, Informative)

Mark Bainter (2222) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441439)

Setup port forwarding your mail server from a higher port (like say 2025) and have your faculty set that as the SMTP port in their client. (Outlook express at least can do this, I think outlook can too)

hmm. (1)

Alcimedes (398213) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441392)

as just one more user decides they hate MS more than anything, and begins writing the latest virus to take them out.

so do people hate MS 'cause their assholes, or are they assholes 'cause people hate them?

Re:hmm. (1)

The_Unforgiven (521294) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441433)

I think that's actually a good question.

Re:hmm. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441463)

The bottom line is: They are assholes. It really doesn't matter how they got that way.

to those who say switch (1)

edoug (66662) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441393)

Switching away from MSN is a real pain though, I experimented with it once when I was young and foolish, but don't remember there being an uninstall once the msn client was on your machine.

good things about consumer choice (1)

onepoint (301486) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441394)

Now is your chance to move to another service. I hope you have another service. But send out a complaint to your local congress person.

good luck finding the right ISP

-onepoint

You do have a choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441395)

Up here in Seattle Quest sold out to Bill and his cronies too. In response I dropped MSN as my provider and went with a local ISP who was very friendly (whos tech support department also has a couple of Linux users I found (after a bear of a time getting the connection set up). Quest still handles the physical connection. Sure I pay $5 more/month for my service but at least I have the peace of mind that I'm not contributing to that cancer in Redmond.

Can somebody explain... (1)

sterno (16320) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441399)

Why is Microsoft interfering with my right to innovate in the realm of e-mail?

Re:Can somebody explain... (2)

danheskett (178529) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441432)

Because you allow it. I, on the other, do not allow them to infringe upon my freedom to innovate in the realm of e-mail because I use non-MS products for email.

Its a pretty simple answer to a pretty idiotic question.

Far Canal! (1, Insightful)

lewko (195646) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441402)

Could it be possible that this is much fuss about nothing? It seems likely that what the page is 'trying to say' is that POP style access to Hotmail and web based mail services is restricted to the MS products as a 'counterspam initiative' and this doesn't neccessarily apply to general mail usage. That is, so bulkmail software cannot use MS servers to relay spam, and the damage is limited to the ten or so users a person could CC from a MS mail client.

Typical over-reaction that gives /. a reputation for being one-eyed. I suggest someone actually clarify the position before we launch into the inevitable MS bashing (as fun as that may be :-)

-----
Miracle cures for snoring don't exist! See www.snoring.com.au [snoring.com.au]

WTF? (2)

Lxy (80823) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441412)

Browsing through my spam filter, I see a lot of message from Hotmail. Microsoft contends, for whatever reason, that spam originates from everyone else. How long until users realizes that the amount of spam INCREASES once they enforce this stupid policy? How long until they realize that Microsoft's software is responsible for worms and this policy actually slows down their connection? This is absolutely rediculous.

Ok, where's Outlook for Linux? (3, Interesting)

MadCow42 (243108) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441415)

So, what do they do for customers who aren't using an OS that Outlook is available for?

Not only are they forcing you to use Outlook, they're forcing you to use Windows. (I believe it's available for Mac too, yeah...).

MadCow.

badly worded (4, Insightful)

CodeMonky (10675) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441417)

That sentence could be read
"When using Outlook express, Outlook or MSN explorer you will only be able to use pop3"

I think they need to clarify that (and I have a feeling they will if I know slashdotians).

fkn microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441418)

fkn microsoft

this news just makes me hate microsoft even more. (very hard, because my respect for them is already at negative infinity).

Why cant micro$oft do what USERS want, not what the almighty dollar (or maybe bill) wants?

Nothing New Here (2, Insightful)

BurritoWarrior (90481) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441419)

I believe they are talking about accessing your HOTMAIL mail account via POP3. As far as I know, as long as this service has been available, you have had to use a MS mail client, as they actually send you ads in a pane at the bottom of Outlook/OE.

I believe there is also a workaround to block the ads, but I can't remember where I saw it.

Re:Nothing New Here (2)

Lxy (80823) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441454)

I no longer have it set up, but despite MS's claims you can POP into your hotmail account with any client, no pop-ups. I can't remember the SMTP and POP3 server names though. It was pretty simple. There was a specific server name that you use, and then your UID/password. Wish I could remember that setting....

Just use 3rd party mail,news service (2)

Baki (72515) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441425)

I've been doing it for years, to have an independant und uninterrupted news and email service when I switch ISP.

It is hard to find a good ISP that offers a decent newsfeed these days, and email service in general is also deteriorating. IMO it is better to subscribe to mail and news at a specialized provider, and use the ISP only for access.

Portland, OR? DSL from Qwest and Hevanet. (2)

Futurepower(tm) (228467) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441430)


Reading stories like this makes me happy to have good DSL service here in Portland, Oregon: Qwest wiring and Hevanet.com as ISP. Hevanet also has excellent tech support.

(Contact me for help programming your Cisco 675.)

the more you tighten you grip (3, Insightful)

rutledjw (447990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441438)

The more star systems will slip through your fingers...

- some girl with sticky buns on the sides of her head, Star Wars


This has been rumored for some time. One can escape assimilation by paying an extra $10/month and going to OfficeWorks, although rumor ALSO has it that even OfficeWorks won't be safe from the Evil Empire.

Someone mentioned getting around this. The problem is the DMCA. As I understand it, it's now illegal to do that kind of reverse engineering, i.e. the type that allowed *nix users to connect to SMB via Samba. So basically, through emrbrace and extend, MS can technically and legally exclude non-conformists.

To switch ISPs requires a 3-week downtime. This is done to eliminate the "slamming" phenonemon that plagued Long Distace carriers. I being one of the "renegades" running an alternative OS, have been looking into alternatives.

The problem is that I work from home (so I have between 3-5 machines networked into a DSL line) and it would create no small problem if I were to have to connect via modem for 3 weeks. Although given the alternative, I may be purchasing a modem...

We've seen this behavior before (1)

Ghengis (73865) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441446)

This is the same type of behavior that got MS in trouble with the DOJ. They were using a monopoly (windows) to leverage another (attempt to get IE to take over the market). Now they're at it again, but the issue of monopoly isn't as clear cut. They obviously don't have a monopoly in the ISP area, but they are using what they do have to leverage their other products, specifically email clients. While this is legal, it's kinda scary how much it resembles their previous illegal actions.

This is so wrong (1)

Uttles (324447) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441449)

I really am speechless. My only thoughts are: How can MS continue to have policies like this and not be sued into bankrupcy?

... oh yeah, they already tried that, it's amazing the lawyers you can get when you're the richest company out there...

Just choose another ISP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2441451)

You can choose any ISP that has DSL services even though the DSL line is through Qwest. While I was waiting for the service to start I believe I saw the announcement about MSN and Qwest on slashdot. So, not wanting anything to do with MSN, I quickly found a local provider for the ISP part of DSL. No problems so far. And they officially support Linux, unlike Qwest.

MSN requires Secure Password Authentication (5, Informative)

argel (83930) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441453)

In theory any e-mail client that supports SPA could be used. Right now that would be MSN Explorer, Outlook Express, and Outlook.

You have no rights... (2, Insightful)

knick (19201) | more than 12 years ago | (#2441469)

This is clearly NOT a violations of anybodys rights.. This ISP is private business, and they are out-sourcing thier email hosting to another private business. And THEY have the right to impose ANY DAMN RULES THEY WANT!!.

Just is just as much of a rights violation as:
- Not allowing broadband users to host home servers
- Not imposing limits on the amount of bandwidth you can use
- Not supporting all OS's
- Blocking ports

It's a private business, and it's thier damn business how you use THIER network, THEIR servers, and THEIR routers.

And, it's YOUR damn right to go elsewhere.

Now excuse me. I have to go sue McDonalds becuase they insist on serving me Coke, and it's my right to want and get Pepsi.

--knick
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