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Ellison's ID Card Plan Gets More Attention

michael posted more than 12 years ago | from the powered-by-Oracle dept.

Privacy 701

fredbox writes: "A Mercury News article reports Oracle CEO Larry Ellison and John Ashcroft have been meeting to discuss creation of a national ID database including fingerprints, facial scans, etc. Other supporters include Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNealy. They claim these cards would be 'voluntary', much as the act of leaving your home or purchasing groceries are voluntary activities." Update: 10/18 01:48 GMT by M : Hah! btempleton writes: "Here is a prototype of Larry Ellison's new national ID card."

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I want it to have my picture! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444179)

Just like those credit cards that have pictures on them. That way, if someone steals the card, they can't use it because the picture doesn't match their appearance.

I'm so clever!

Re:I want it to have my picture! (-1)

mackga (990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444194)

shut the fuck up, you migraine asshole. if your picture was on anything, it would melt: ugly fucker.

Re:I want it to have my picture! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444234)

uR 50 14m3 d00d!!!!11

Too hard to keep up with... (4, Insightful)

dj_flux (66385) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444180)

I'd rather just have a chip implanted in my neck. Or maybe a nice barcode tattoo.

Re:Too hard to keep up with... (1)

FaasNat (522755) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444215)

Hmmmmmm, going this route sounds like this could end up being the "mark"

Re:Too hard to keep up with... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444222)

no no...your right hand.

we have 2000 years of prophecy to live up to.

mark of the beast, anyone?

Re:Too hard to keep up with... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444224)

A tattoo on everyones buttock, pants with viewing windows will be mandatory....

Re:Too hard to keep up with... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444261)

In that case, let's all give in to our voyeuristic tendencies and make women put the barcodes and viewing windows on their breasts.

On second though, forget the barcodes...let's just go with the viewing windows.

Re:Too hard to keep up with... (3, Funny)

CmdrPinkTaco (63423) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444268)

all your freedom are belong to CIA

Technologically unsound. (2)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444271)

The best place is clearly in the right hand or in the forehead. This has been well documented for centuries.

How about along the nose? (1)

Knobby (71829) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444320)

It probably sounds silly, but running a barcode down the nose might work better than either the forehead or hand. There are fewer potential problems with hats and gloves (which important this time of year)..

French (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444181)


You all suck

-The AC Avenger

heh... (1, Redundant)

TheRain (67313) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444184)

"They claim these cards would be 'voluntary', much as the act of leaving your home or purchasing groceries are voluntary activities."

ah, so they're voluntary :)

Re:heh... (-1)

mackga (990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444205)

right, this is funny. yeah, sure. so is salt and pepper. fucking obvious assholes.

Re:heh... (-1)

Bilton (517325) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444243)

ha, ha.
(I'm laughing at you.)

huh? (5, Insightful)

Patrick Cable II (521813) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444187)

Voluntary? Whats the point then? A Drivers license is voluntary.

Re:huh? (1)

ez76 (322080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444274)

The idea is that if you go to the airport and don't have one of these ID cards, you will be subject to more thorough checks and searches.

Re:huh? (5, Insightful)

pherris (314792) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444312)

Patrick Cable II said:

"Voluntary? Whats the point then? A Drivers license is voluntary."
But try to live almost any where in this country without a driver's license or auto. Or imagine your local supermarket saying that you "need" one of these cards to shop there. Don't like it? They'll say "Go someplace else. We're doing this for 'National Security'."

The SSN system has been so exploited by big business it's not even funny. This is a dream come true for those that want to track your life. I guess it's voluntary if you don't need to work, eat or receive health care. Sad.


driver's license argument (1)

kochsr (144988) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444189)

i still like the driver's license argument... we already have them... they could run with that. i don't really care if people know who i am. i am not a criminal!

Re:driver's license argument (1)

TheEviscerator (240966) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444263)

This type of attitude is extremely dangerous. I don't do anything illegal in my house, yet I'm not prepared to let the federal government erect video monitors inside my bedroom. Simply because you have "nothing to hide" doesn't mean that you should let them look.

Re:driver's license argument (5, Interesting)

geekoid (135745) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444278)

but what if something you say today, gets held against you in 5 years do to changing political climate?
What if something that you do now is legal, but becomes illegal, and the go after people retroactivly?(something ashcroft wants to do)
In America there was a period of time called Macarthism whre those very things happened.
The old, if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide adage has always led to abuse , and has given rise to dictorships.
This isn't theoretical, it has happened.

Re:driver's license argument (2, Insightful)

Velex (120469) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444303)

i am not a criminal!

That's what you think. By a strict definition of crime, that is, causing harm to another person (and even then "harm" is fuzzy), neither am I. But what about those web sites you visited lately? Slashdot is known as attracting quite the subversive crowd. And I'm sure that there might be something suspicious about that lye you bought a few days ago. You bought a copy of Fight Club, I see. Well, well, you also have bought a copy of the hacker OS linux? On top of all that, your grandfather is Arab! This isn't good at all; clearly something is going down. In the best interests of preserving our liberty and tradition of small-government, I'm detaining you indefinity on suspicion of being a terrorist.

I know, this post should probably be scored -1, redundant, but I had to post it. It's not the collection of the information that's the bad thing, it's the amassing of information in the hands of the paranoid that will result from this anti-terrorist initiative.

Re:driver's license argument (5, Funny)

gnurd (455798) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444324)

i jerk off a lot, its not illegal, but i dont want george bush to watch either.

heh... (5, Insightful)

caseydk (203763) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444191)

Yeah, it'll be really cute when you can't fly on a plane, ride a train, get a credit card, open a bank account, or get a job without one...

Not to mention have email...

Re:heh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444204)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there something like this mentioned in Revelations?

Re:heh... (-1)

Bilton (517325) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444228)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there something like this already mentioned on Slashdot?


Re:heh... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444209)

Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number
Social Security Number

Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition. Comment aborted.

Re:heh... (1)

gregorio (520049) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444214)

Not to mention have email...

Wow, the best spam opt-out system ever!

Re:heh... (1)

caseydk (203763) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444217)

I hate to respond to my own comment, but...

The terrorists who boarded the planes on 09/11 all had legal American identification or foreign identification, right?

What good would this system do unless it was FORCED WORLD-WIDE?

Re:heh... (1)

Cainam (10838) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444292)

Not only that, but people would have to voluntarily mark the "Terrorist" checkbox on the form they fill out, so we'd know they were terrorists...
They'll do that, of course, because it'll be against the law not to. It'll work perfectly.

Re:heh... (3, Insightful)

dragons_flight (515217) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444229)

And how many of those things (not counting email) do you do without using a driver's license or a social security number?

Re:heh... (1)

caseydk (203763) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444255)

You don't need any ID to ride a train...

And often, you only need some form of picture ID to get on a plane... school id's have worked in the past... that was pre-911 though...

Re:heh... (-1)

trollin4jesus (142136) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444293)

i've flown 4 times with no picture id at all. in fact, i've flown once without presenting any ID. i don't really see what presenting ID to fly is supposed to solve anyway.

Re:heh... (-1)

mackga (990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444253)

jesushchrist, did you win an obvious trophy in grade school today? it's clear that your asshole is tied so directly to your lame excuse for a brain, since everything that comes out of your mouth smells like shit.

How about a fair trade? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444196)

Dear Mr. Ashcroft,

I would be willing to enroll in your new National ID program, surrending my fingerprints and facial scan in exchange for a sworn affidavit from you that the reources of the FBI will be spent chasing criminals and not harmless copyright infringement. That is to say, no more working for RIAA, MPAA, Adobe or any other monopolistic commercial interest.


John Q Public.

anal expulsive behavior (-1)

Bilton (517325) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444197)

Allowed HTML:

    • Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal.

Can I use it for... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444199)

I'll only use this card if Microsoft accepts it.

Err... (0, Redundant)

PhReaKyDMoNKeY (522192) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444202)

If they're voluntary, what's the point? It sort of has to be all or nothing if it's going to work. I, for one, will remain squarely on the side of nothing. Besides, won't it be assumed that you have something to hide if you decide to opt out? My $0.02 PhReaKy D. MoNKeY

Just for the record. (2, Flamebait)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444207)

Income-tax in Canada is also 'voluntary'.

Voluntary (1)

jeffphil (461483) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444208)

Paying taxes are actually written in federal law as voluntary. But we know what happens if you don't pay.

Oracle and Sun... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444210) the selling, IBM gets the job. :-)


That's not my experience. (1)

siliconvortex (235693) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444211)

All the stores I've been in tend to get pissed off if you ignore the purchasing part of the experience.

The moderation system on slashdot is brainwashing (-1)

Anonymous Pancake (458864) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444212)

The moderation system on slashdot is brainwashing

I have come to the conclusion that the moderation system on slashdot is a form of brainwashing. The moderation system was put in place to influence how slashdot users think. For example, a person who expresses an un-slashdot style view, like saying windowsXP is a good product, or microsoft is not the devil, or open-source is a bad way of marketing, will be modded down, even if they back up their views solidly. Therefore, it is obvious that the moderation system on slashdot was created to influence and brainwash people. This post will be modded down, because I reveal the truth about this website.

thank you.

2001 Winner, "Most Obvious Post" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444307)

No shit, dickless. Now, go eat a bag of hell.

Voluntary? (-1)

LoRider (16327) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444218)

Yeah right.

SSN, anyone? (1)

wren (5935) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444220)

"Dershowitz said the database would have to be carefully guarded and that police should not be able to ask for a card at will..."

And Social Security Numbers aren't necessary for jobs, bank accounts, credit cards...

Re:SSN, anyone? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444301)

Yeah, the back of my fathers ss card still says not to be used for identification purposes. Just another example of how citizens should never yield any rights to the government unless they are required for survival. These things are always sold as empowering, and end up citizen control measures.

Neeeeat!! (5, Funny)

mc2Kleen (190152) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444221)

If I'm really good and I turn in lots of bad, bad terrorists will the government bump me up to Platinum card status?

And if so, can I get mine with Pokemon or my favorite sport's team emblazoned across it?

A special report (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444223)

In this post-columbine era, we are faced with some tough decisions. In the same of saftey, I will make every effort to step up the frequency at which I rape young boys. Arabs also engauge in pedophelia, therefore my actions are preventing the successful completion of a Muslim edict in the Koran. I will then write a book describing my ass-cherry plundering adventures.

Your Pal,
Jon Katz

Dunno what to do (1)

TheEviscerator (240966) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444225)

I'd post something negative, but I'm afraid Larry Elison would have me sent away for "Political Re-education".

Again. (2)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444231)

It's not about the cards. It's about the system.

This system would cost many billions of dollars to implement, and would give no real gain.

Re:Again. (1)

Hal-9001 (43188) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444302)

Not to mention that Larry Ellison and Scott McNeely have nothing to gain from the establishment of a nationwide database and the infrastructure to go with it... :-p

Er.... (2)

tcc (140386) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444232)

>creation of a national ID database including fingerprints, facial scans, etc.


God what more do you want with that!? Anal probing? if so, I suggest Larry himself does the Quality Assurance testing part... you know... to be sure it gets it right the first time... maybe after a few dozens of tries (you know how buggy those things are), he'll resort to something less 1984-ish...

... then again, I know a lot of people that would stick anything "up theirs" to get a few M $ worth of contracts... some of you pervers reading this are actually doing it for free (or fun, you pick any :) )

Re:Er.... (2)

BrianH (13460) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444287)

It's been my experience that "facial scans" is corporate doubletalk for photograph. In otherwords, they want your picture and thumbprint, a practice already started by most DMV's in the U.S.

Curious (1)

jiheison (468171) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444291)

My copy of 1984 has no mention of anal probing. Is this a situation similar to the abridging of Clockwork Orange in the US?

Hmmmm, SO? (3, Flamebait)

friday2k (205692) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444235)

Just please educate me. What is so wrong about the card? If you would like to have an ID card, something that the US do _NOT_ have, and it carries your picture and your fingerprint, what again is so wrong with that. In my homecountry, Germany, you have to register with the city you live in, tell them where you live and, if you move, unregister with your old city and register in the new one. They can always track you. You have to have an ID card. It carries your address, height, weight, place of birth and your picture. If you move within the country (see above) you have to have it updated. True, it does not carry your fingerprint, but it has a nice little code that gets scanned when you travel by airplane, etc. It is compatible with the electronic readers at immigration that you guys might be familiar with. And I even think there is a fine if you do not carry it with you. So how is the proposed ID card so much different? I personally would like it if people have to register in a more thorough way if they travel with me on an airplane. Please do not get me wrong, systems can be abused and there are enough examples of that, but I do not see that coming with a national ID card system.

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (1)

ryu-kun (255968) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444276)

America always has some subtle, or sometimes more obvious way of abusing such examples. The whole problem with this is that individuals such as myself and many others do not feel the need nor can see the justification of such a system. The disadvantages in this scenario clearly outweigh the benefits.

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444299)

just because people in Europe do something a certain way doesn't mean we should too.

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (1)

Hal-9001 (43188) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444313)

In fact, last I checked, they were busy copying us... :-p

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (0, Informative)

trollin4jesus (142136) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444277)

the real difference is that many americans value their freedom and privacy, that germans are too short-sighted to do so is fairly irrelevant.

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444283)

Yeah, that sounds very German. I don't know if the US should be taking lessons in how to be free from the folks who brought us WW2.

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444298)

The Jews brought us WWII and they seem to have a deathgrip on the USA now. It's either "never ever ever badmouth a Jew" or get called an Anti-Semite because you don't believe the pretentious tripe they churn out for mass comsumption.

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (5, Interesting)

sbeitzel (33479) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444314)

It's a problem because I trust my own government only slightly more than I trust Phred Terrorist. Or, looking at it another way, I trust my own government less so -- with the terrorist, I know he's trying to kill me.

Basically, I don't trust my own government to do the right thing. Especially because as time passes the responsiveness of the U.S. government to Big Money increases, and the rights of the private citizen decrease. I most certainly don't trust Enron, Phillip Morris, CBS, and AOL to be interested in my well-being. Insofar as Corporate America cares about the individual citizen at all, it's as a revenue source.

There are also those among the quite wealthy and therefore influential who do not think that equal protection before the law should hold. At the very least, the rich should be more equal than others, they believe.

This proposed identification and tracking system does not actually solve any problems we currently face. What it does do is open the door to the abrogation of our every Constitutional right.

I am normally opposed to Libertarians (and libertarians), as I have problems with their philosophy. However, on this issue I believe all Americans can stand united. This is a frightening idea.

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (3, Insightful)

geekoid (135745) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444321)

Not a troll or flame.
In a country that had the most infamous dictors of the 20th century, I would think this sort of thing would be strongly opposed.
Anybody who can track you, can control you.
What if you go into a shop, make a legitamate purchase. the next day, the shop gets raided by law enforcement for some illegal activity.
You are now under investigation. Being under investigation goes into your record. Do you think that won'r effect you if you want a government job?
What happens when you do something that become illegal? now they have reason to suspect you.
Not to mention the marketing nightmares.
You bought something every company that has anything to do with that product is now spamming you one way or another.
In this case there is also the fact of tying the whole thing to a propritary database company. as opposed to a company that ir responsible for the ID casr, but can choose the DB based on requirements, noy on what they allready sell.

Re:Hmmmm, SO? (1)

gregorio (520049) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444335)

True, it does not carry your fingerprint

BTW, what is the big problem about having your fingerprint information inside the government's database (I am not saying that you have a problem with that, just asking)?
If you are not a criminal, you don't have to worry about your fingerprint (the government is not going to track you down using your fingerprints, they have better ways to do that).

e.g. "Gets More Attention" (1)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444236)

e.g. "Gets More Attention"

Ok, instead of it being just merely "a bad idea", I think, "it's a really bad idea."

Heck, I'd go so far as to say, "it's a really, really bad idea."

voluntary? (2)

orangesquid (79734) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444239)

Voluntary... wonderful.

Of course jobs and colleges will eventually require them, so its only "voluntary" if you want to be uneducated and unemployed.. just like eating is a "voluntary" activity for people who don't want to live more than a couple weeks, I suppose?

I don't mean to sound like a troll, but I don't think calling this "voluntary" makes much sense.


Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444244)

fredbox writes: "They claim these cards would be inserted into the rectal cavity 'involuntary', much as the act of fucking sheep or sticking groceries up your pet's ass are voluntary activities."

Adios Freedom (-1, Flamebait)

termite666 (101297) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444245)

Why dont you just stick a leash up my ass!!

Imporoper use of apparatus. (1)

czardonic (526710) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444317)

I hope you don't own any dogs. And if you do, for cripe's sake, get a book on canine care or something.

Re:Adios Freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444319)

>>Why dont you just stick a leash up my ass!!

termite666 you are fined one credit for violating the verbal moralities...

What the hell for? (5, Insightful)

CaptainCarrot (84625) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444249)

Could someone in the press pleas at least ask the damn question? To wit: how exactly would these ID cards have prevented the events of 9/11? The terrorists didn't have to lie about their names to get on the airplanes, they just had to buy the tickets!

Re:What the hell for? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444336)

Oh yeah, and the ONLY kind of terrorist attack is EXACTLY what happened on 9/11. Good point. ASSHOLE. EAT A BAG OF HELL

Limits (3, Interesting)

MikeyNg (88437) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444250)

It doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. The problem would come from the limitations of the system. Or more precisely, what it would limit people from doing. It may be voluntary to have such an ID card, but if it's too inconveniencing NOT to have one, it's essentially mandatory.

If it's simply for ID purposes in high-risk areas, then that's fine. If I want to get on board a plane filled with tons of jet fuel and with hundreds of other people, it's okay to check and see that I'm not "dangerous." (Who defines "dangerous" here, also?)

But if I'm going to go buy some liquor, cigarettes, pr0n, or _Catcher in the Rye_, I don't want to have to use my ID. I could care less about who knows I'm buying what, but do you REALLY need to know?

The other interesting point I'd like to bring up is: Fakes. How hard would these things be to fake? No matter how hard you try, someone with enough time and money will find a way to make a fake. I mean, there's high school kids with fake drivers licenses now.

Re:Limits (1)

czardonic (526710) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444333)

Now that you have explained why this would be a TERRIBLE idea, please elaborate on why this "doesn't sound like too bad of an idea."

The only plus side you mention is countered two paragraphs later.

How do we build a 'negative' database? (5, Informative)

Nonesuch (90847) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444251)

One of the issues that comes up often in discussing firearms purchase controls, is how to provide a mechanism to deny access by prohibited persons, without inherently building a database of all the lawful purchases and purchasers?

The basic premise of 'National ID' systems is that if we build a database of all law-abiding trustworthy citizens, anybody who does not exist in this database must be a 'prohibited person'.

This premise is also one of the biggest dangers of a national ID, and the primary objection raised by civil libertarians and the ultra paranoid.

The 'Brady Bill' background check law was written with a safeguard- all records of 'successful' checks were to be deleted. In reality, the Clinton administration ignored this limitation, holding records indefinitely.

The same sort of behavior can be expected regarding any safeguards built into a 'National ID' system.

So much spin my neck hurts ... (1)

pherris (314792) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444252)

"'I think 99.99 percent of Americans will want these ID cards,' Ellison said. "

I think that 99.99 percent of Americans think that Larry Ellison pulled these stats out of thin air and are tainted by his own greed.


Re:So much spin my neck hurts ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444282)

In this post-columbine era, I think that 99.9 percent of Americans are stupid, fat sheep who deserve everything they get.

Your Pal,
Jon Katz

Oh, can I get a new 12 year old boy? Mine is getting too loose.

How will karma be updated? (4, Funny)

MarkusQ (450076) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444257)

As far as I can see, this isn't a very well thought-out plan. For example, they say (under "other information to be tracked") that they are going to store everyone's karma. But will this be karma from slash-dot proper, or from some other site that uses slash code? How will we know? And, even more seriously, how do they expect to update it? I don't think we can just piggy-back on the e-bay update system, although I do see the merits of keeping the number of spinal implants to an absolute minimum.

I know this may sound like a silly thing to quibble over in such an important plan, but I think we (like all special interest groups) have a right to be heard.

-- MarkusQ

P.S. I am quite relieved to see that they dropped the idea of trying to track mod-points real-time. That would have been a nightmare!

Re:How will karma be updated? (-1)

trollin4jesus (142136) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444316)

jesus christ man, just keep your stupid fucking mouth shut. blah blah blah blah.... ok we get it, you are a stupid waste of flesh, now be quiet about it.

Head in Ass disease.. (2)

PopeAlien (164869) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444259)

..Is somebody spreading this through the mail? How do you prevent forgery? Make a law against it? It's nice to know that 'our way of life' is being so staunchly defended by those that would have us bolted down, tattoed and tracked 'for our own protection'.

Arabs/ Muslims Should Be Killed (-1)

tealover (187148) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444265)

these dirty fucks need to be exterminated. i sincerely believe that all of the Arabian Peninsula and every muslim county should be nuked. The U.S. should notify Russia 24 hours before it happens and then just wipe these fucking heathens off the face of the earth.

the next step is to kill all the savages within each country's borders. just an all out assault. kill the babies, old people...everyone.

the last step is to outlaw the muslim religion. anyone found practicing shall be killed.

i've bought a few assault rifles over the past few weeks. i don't think i need to say anything further.

Guide to air travel in America (5, Insightful)

The Milky Bar Kid (411137) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444270)

The cards also would be instantly checked against a new national database. That database would base would link existing criminal and immigration data to screen out potential terrorists.

But AFAIK, none of the terrorists HAD criminal records. They were perfectly good citizens as far as anyone knew up until getting on those planes. So criminal data's no good.

Ah, but they did just emigrate from Afghanistan, or Iraq. That would show up on the immigration data.

So what this suggests to me, is that if you've just immigrated from Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd be allowing another thirty minutes at the airport, to deal with all those 'are you a terrorist' questions. Because that's the only thing that separated all those terrorists from the rest of the travellers.

It'd be good to see a policy from the US that didn't assume that terrorists have a big flashing sign on their forehead that says "I AM A TERRORIST." Because that's how I think they're planning on telling Osama Bin Laden from all the other robed, bearded guys carrying AK47s in Afghanistan.

We already HAVE national ID cards!... (5, Insightful)

Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444272)

When was the last time you heard of any US citizen being able to do much without presenting their social security number?

How long before Feinstein sells (ahem, I mean, "legislates") access to this database to major publishers and media conglomerates? After all, with all the talk of encryption crippling and government-mandated copy-prevention lately, perhaps the mysterious terrorists are financing their operations by selling bootleg DVDs (perhaps even with secret terrorist messages steganographically embedded in the signal! Gasp!) and using hacked no-back-door versions of commercial encryption software, so, just in case, we should probably let MPAA and BSA use the database to correlate with any 'suspicious' activity they might notice...

You know, as recent as a year or so ago, the above would have sounded like paranoid ranting to me. It worries me that it no longer does...

AH! Another Passport (TM) use!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444279)

Microsoft is eyeing this too, I'm sure.

Of course, I wouldn't personally mind having an iris scan record embedded in my passport/drivers license combo card.

I wouldn't even mind a central database.
As long as the ACLU maintains it.

Ninety days? (4, Insightful)

schussat (33312) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444281)

Ellison is quoted in the article saying that he thinks they could get the system running in a very short time, like as little as ninety days. Barring the enormous technical obstacles to actually implementing this in just three months (short of creating a regimented system that I imagine would not exude an air of "voluntary" compliance), I think such a timeline is pretty threatening. It takes Congress a whole year to hammer out taxes, budgets, and so forth; getting a national ID system running in just three months? There's a whole lot of dialog and debate that just gets absolutely left in the dust when they try to move in that short a time.

On that note, does anybody know what kinds of legislative action really would be needed to put this together? It strikes me as requiring a pretty close-coupling of business and government interests, OR the federalization of a whole lot of currently private organizations.


Drivers License (0)

lukew (528994) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444284)

Incorporating these into current drivers licences (or passports) isn't such a bad idea. Have a chip on the card that stores fingerprints, retina scans, whatever they intend to use. This would be the least painful and most effective way of getting a great idea decent penetration into the populus.

"Voluntary" Identification (1)

shutton (4725) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444285)

I love the identification card that Safeway hands out (i.e., the "Safeway Club Card"). I can not use it, and I end up "volunteering" to pay more money at their stores for goods whose prices have been inflated so that the "Club members" can have them for a reasonable price. All I have to do is get on their bandwagon, be tracked, and I have the goods at the correct price.

Similarly, last time I checked, it was good enough to be born in the US to be a US citizen (a piece of paper sitting at some far-away health department was enough to prove it for the occasional job or welfare application). And having some money in your pocket was enough to get fair treatment in the grocery store (well, at least since the late 60's). Does this mean I'll have to have a "national ID card" just to be allowed out of my house? After all, that air out there is the property of the US government, right?

"Where are your papers?"

Liberty, Freedom, Pursuit of Happiness - for CEOs? (2, Funny)

WillSeattle (239206) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444289)

Let me see if I get this straight.

We, the slaves, in order to more perfectly serve our corporate masters, consent by not doing anything to the removal of our constitutional rights to Liberty, Freedom, and the Pursuit of Happiness. In addition, we agree to the suspension of our constitutional rights to freedom from unusual search and seizure, the lack of proper posted warrants in the removal of those rights, and the extensions of patents and copyrights beyond the time periods specified in that Constitution.

I don't think so.

You have to fight for your right to party!

1984 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444290)

It amuses me when people say the national ID card won't be a big deal unless you're a criminal....recall in 1984 that the government didn't care about ninety percent of the population...they just cared about the intellectuals. Only a few people could think, and they were the most dangerous.

So of course the national ID card won't make a difference for most people...most people just aren't that important. It will be the radical thinkers who suffer.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Benjamin Franklin

You don't realize... (2)

aralin (107264) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444294)

No matter what, after Sept. 11, there will be some serious security measures on airports and other problematic zones. These national ID cards are actually a convenient way how to avoid these. It will NOT cost money, it will actually save money, because the less people will go through these thorough checks every day, the less it will cost overall. The legislation that will place these checks in place is what takes your freedom, not this card. This card may make implementation of this new comming legislation economically possible. Thats it.

Voluntary? Yeah Right... (1)

mr_don't (311416) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444300)

These cards might be voluntary until you need to buy a car, fly on a plane, or do anything useful in this world!!!!

Just like credit cards... You can't even rent a worthless movie or rent a car without a credit card!

Ashcroft & Fienstien like it? (5, Insightful)

Tassach (137772) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444304)

If Ashcroft and Fienstien both like it, it HAS to be a REALLY bad idea. Come on, I can't think of many people who have worse records when it comes to undermining the Bill of Rights than those two.

$core for Oracle (1)

ll5 (522784) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444308)

From the article:
Ellison said that if he does donate the software, maintenance and upgrades won't be free.
Way to ensure that Oracle stays around for ever Larry! Not a bad bit of insurance for Sun either as they are likely to be the platform of choice.

Good Idea (2)

wfrp01 (82831) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444311)

I don't really see the problem with such a system, per se. I do have a problem with the proponents of such a system being such unabashed opportunistic pigs. Remeber Oracle's haste to post their earnings after the WTC tragedy? For shame.

Look, you've got driver's licenses, social security numbers, fingerprints, license photos, criminal records, FBI records, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to assemble and relate these components in a database.

This could be very useful. This could be abused. Sounds pretty much like any technical endeavor. Do we stick our heads in the sand, and hope the bogeyman will go away, or do we deal?

The problem isn't the technology, it's the abuse of technology. This is precisely why such systems shouldn't be trusted to proprietary vendors such as Oracle or Sun. Our government should not become beholden to anyone's private interests.

A national identity database would be an extraordinarily useful tool for law enforcement. Does it further empower our government? Of course it does. Of course such a system will need to be monitored and carefully crafted to prevent abuse. But that does not mean we have to go so far as to dismiss the idea entirely. Our government controls nuclear warheads also. Are you afraid that they will be dropped on your head? Call me crazy, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Just don't let Larry upgrade his Learjet with my tax dollars.

National ID cards - for citizens or for foreigners (1)

WillSeattle (239206) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444318)

The problem here is that we are confusing the following:

We have a problem with non-citizens threatening the US. We do not have a problem with citizens threatening the US (apologies to the McVeighs, you're just not that threatening, baby ...).

So the CEOs and their Senate servants want us to give up our constitutional rights when we aren't the problem.

The obvious solution is that only non-citizens need National ID cards, not US citizens.

Unless someone held a Constitutional Congress or passed a Constitutional Amendment when I wasn't looking ....

It would be funny if they were not serious (5, Insightful)

Kefaa (76147) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444325)

The card would contain basic information about the holder, including Social Security number, and would be linked to a federal database containing detailed personal data, including digital records of the person's thumbprint, palm print, face or eyes.

Later of course we could expand it for more specific information like your health records, financial status, political slant, religious affiliations and employment history. Of course you would not have to provide this to anyone else, but then again they would not have to hire you, provide products or services, and extend credit to you.

To handle these issues I am certain we will be asked to trust them. And should it prove to be an issue You they will take it up in a future bill.

I am reminded of the principle of SAM (Specific, Attainable, and Measurable). I then ask the simple question (the same I posed for cryptography "back doors"), "If this was in place on 9/11, would it have stopped the terrorists?" Ding-ding-ding, I am sorry, but at last count something like 14 of the hijackers were unknown to anyone. They would have had cards that allowed them to get on without an issue.

"But what about the others? They would have been stopped." No, they would not have been on to begin with, or they would have paid someone to create or reprogram cards.

So what will work? With regards to planes, no one on a plane will believe a hijacker is anything but suicidal. Even if they are not, and really just want money. Sorry, we are going to be looking out for ourselves and each other. The best security you can ever hope to find.

Hey wait, my card turned red! (1)

sgt_getraer (448034) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444328)

I was just celebrating my birthday, when I heard a faint beeping eminating from my wallet. My National ID card is blinking, and displaying a message "Immediately Report to Carousel for termination."

MD5 sum of my DNA strand (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2444329)

I'd be all for getting a card with an MD5sum of my DNA strand on it. Sure the government could track my every move but hey, whatever it takes to kick criminals in the nuts I'm all for!

It'd be like living in one those futuristic movies... It'd be so cool.

Challenge to Privacy Advocates/Zealots (0, Flamebait)

ez76 (322080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2444331)

In anticipation of hundreds of redundant "big brother is watching" posts,

I challenge every poster who wants to tell us about all the problems inherent in a national ID card, to instead suggest alternative solutions that increase national security while protecting personal liberties and freedoms (or at least not infringing upon them).

Note: Suggesting appeasement of fundamentalist Muslim demands earns you no points. Let's hear some real ideas.
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