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US School Installs 'Shooter Detection' System

Soulskill posted 2 days ago | from the but-new-textbooks-are-too-expensive dept.

Education 674

An anonymous reader writes: A school in Methuen, Massachusetts has demonstrated the first installation of an automated detection system for active gunmen. Sensors placed throughout the building are activated by the sounds of gunfire. The sensors relay data on the shooter's real-time location directly to police, who can then track and subdue their target. The system was developed for the military to detect the location of enemy fire. It will cost school districts between $20,000 and $100,000 to equip each school with the gunfire-detecting sensors. Methuen's police chief said, "It's amazing, the short, split-second amount of time from identification of the shot to transmission of the message. It changes the whole game. Without that shot detection system, we wouldn't know what was going on in the school ... Valuable, valuable time can be lost. Unfortunately, with school crisis situations, it's about mitigating loss."

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I fucking hate niggers (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368395)

Big lip mother fuckers.

Frosty piss bitches.

Wonderful idea. (3, Funny)

Minwee (522556) | 2 days ago | (#48368405)

Just remember, whatever you do, don't ever drop your books in the hallway.

Trust me. Don't do it.

Re:Wonderful idea. (0)

oodaloop (1229816) | 2 days ago | (#48368523)

Wow, your books must be really heavy to make a supersonic boom in less than 1/32 of a second that sounds exactly like a gunshot to a computer.

Re:Wonderful idea. (1)

i kan reed (749298) | 2 days ago | (#48368537)

Why would they calibrate the system that carefully?

Not all firearms make the same sounds, and excessive elimination of false positives is a bad idea for any sensor system.

Re:Wonderful idea. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368859)

I'm pretty sure that "various gunshots" sound a lot more like one another than "a gunshot" and "a book hitting the floor" sound like one another:

For instance:
- dropping a book doesn't cause a supersonic snap as it passes by the sensor - a bullet does.
- a book hitting the floor is not going to create a sound that is 120 dB to 160 dB - noise levels equivalent to "somewhere between a pnemuatic riveter and a jet engine." The muzzle blast from a gun does create a sound that loud.

So there's two fairly easy to discriminate characteristics that are pretty unlikely in a school setting. If the system detects and reports on those, it should be pretty easy to eliminate false positives from some douche-canoe in the library dropping a book on the floor.

Re:Wonderful idea. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368633)

I guess these sensors are completely pointless with subsonic rounds then.

Re:Wonderful idea. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368847)

I don't know if the system is the same as one that was studied in my wireless sensor networks class as a case study, but at least in that one, quite literally yes. The system was completely worthless against sub-sonic rounds, especially those being fired by most silenced weapons. For this system, it wasn't such a problem though as it was meant as perimeter defense to localize snipers, and sub-sonic rounds don't really work well for snipers since long range and sub-sonic rounds don't really mix well.

Dumb idea ... Lots of assumptions .... (4, Insightful)

pollarda (632730) | 2 days ago | (#48368595)

The big assumption is that the gunman is continually firing shots that will allow the system to work. Alternatively, off the shelf wi-fi enabled cameras could be purchased that would provide real-time video feeds throughout the school allowing law enforcement to not only "hear" where the gunman is but to be able to actually see the gunman and potential victims as they move (or hide). Estimated cost: $5,000 - $10,000 depending on how many cameras are installed. (The prices are retail so I bet the schools can get an additional 30% off as they would probably be considered a wholesale customer.)

Sure the technology is cool but it doesn't make it the best choice for taxpayer dollars especially given the relative rarity of school shootings. During the 2009 - 2010 school year there were 98,817 public schools. Let's say they were all equipped with this system at $50,000 / school it would cost $4,940,850,000 to retrofit all the schools. I wonder what else can be done with 5 billion dollars... Perhaps some significant development work in vaccines? Perhaps cancer? Heck, I bet more lives would be saved simply choosing random people that need medical care and making sure they get the very best treatment possible.

Re:Dumb idea ... Lots of assumptions .... (3, Insightful)

squidflakes (905524) | 2 days ago | (#48368779)

There is also this crazy idea about sensible gun legislation that would help to prevent stuff like this. You know, if we're talking crazy things that will never happen in the U.S.

Re:Dumb idea ... Lots of assumptions .... (1)

ThinkWeak (958195) | 2 days ago | (#48368819)

Alternatively we could spend money on mental health and outreach programs for troubled children. But spending all the money on a reactive system is probably better than a proactive approach...

Re:Dumb idea ... Lots of assumptions .... (2)

gstoddart (321705) | 2 days ago | (#48368823)

Alternatively, off the shelf wi-fi enabled cameras could be purchased that would provide real-time video feeds throughout the school allowing law enforcement to not only "hear" where the gunman is but to be able to actually see the gunman and potential victims as they move

At which point you're saying your kids have zero right to privacy, and are expected to be monitored the entire time they're in school.

Awesome idea, get them used to it while they're young! That way they'll be nice and compliant when they're adults.

I'm sure Google and Facebook (and the government) will love to have the facial recognition cameras trained on everyone before they're old enough to understand.

And, of course, the perverts will want to hack your cameras because of all of the pictures of kids.

Oh, and of course the schools will sell the data to an analytics company. Because, you gotta pay for that somehow.

I really don't see your solution being anything other than a terrible idea. Neither for society, nor for the kids you think it will protect.

Re:Dumb idea ... Lots of assumptions .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368835)

Systems like this will become more commonplace. They will get much cheaper too through economies of scale and eventually be installed virtually everywhere. They have no impact on privacy and allow police to respond immediately to any gunfire. Sounds good to me.

Lol. (2, Funny)

waspleg (316038) | 2 days ago | (#48368409)

3 - 2 - 1 .. Some kid brings a speaker plugged in to a cellphone/whatever plays gunfire gets school shut down for the day...

It'll be the new pulling the fire alarm/calling in bomb threat (taken way too seriously these days) =)

Re: Lol. (1)

ChristianMc (1627201) | 2 days ago | (#48368487)

I hope you're kidding. I very much doubt this technology is limited to sound recognition. To casually bring in a speaker capable of the volume of a gunshot is laughable in the least. Not to mention, many gunshot sounds effects you find are bound to sound nothing like the real thing.

Re: Lol. (1)

boristdog (133725) | 2 days ago | (#48368555)

Has anyone studied how to spoof this thing? Firecracker in a piece of iron pipe?
You know the kids are going to try. I know I would have.

Re: Lol. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368771)

Many years ago, Redwood City, CA (or one of the neighboring suburbs) installed a system over the entire town. After a year or so, they shut it down because of the number of false alarms.

So unless the system has improved significantly, there will be lots of false alarms.

Re: Lol. (1)

allsorts46 (1725046) | 2 days ago | (#48368571)

Whilst I doubt it would trigger the 'gunshot detector', it does stand a good chance of getting the school shut down for the day anyway

Re: Lol. (1)

gregulator (756993) | 2 days ago | (#48368601)

I hope you are kidding.

1,600 hits, 2 of which were actual gunshots...

In August 2012 West Midlands Police said of 1,618 alerts produced by the system since November 2011, only two were confirmed gunfire incidents. - See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/... [thefirearmblog.com]

Re:Lol. (4, Insightful)

Wycliffe (116160) | 2 days ago | (#48368541)

I was thinking the same thing. When I was a kid, setting off blackcats (firecrackers) in the bathroom
was not unheard of. This makes that even more appealing.
My biggest problem with these type of systems is that the cost/reward is so lopsided. There is
so much more effective ways of saving lives than trying to protect yourself from a 1 in a million event.
Children are way way more likely to be injured by their parents at home than they are by a school shooting.
A tornado or a fire is probably also way more likely to injure a kid at school than a school shooting.
There have to be better things to spend money on than expensive equipment that based on probabilities
will likely never be used.

Re:Lol. (1)

jones_supa (887896) | 2 days ago | (#48368641)

3 - 2 - 1 .. Some kid brings a speaker plugged in to a cellphone/whatever plays gunfire gets school shut down for the day...

Then punish that kid for setting off a false alarm, just like you would someone messing with the fire alarm system with fake cues.

New way getting out of tests (1)

sinij (911942) | 2 days ago | (#48368417)

Just play CoD or any other FPS very loudly in the hallway.

Re:New way getting out of tests (1)

Wootery (1087023) | 2 days ago | (#48368617)

How on earth are FPS games relevant? Can you use a PlayStation in the hallway?

As others have pointed out, it's unlikely that a cell-phone could make a loud enough sound. A firecracker would be more realistic.

Re:New way getting out of tests (1)

sinij (911942) | 2 days ago | (#48368653)

While this might not be an option for FPS console gamer, PC gamers can always bring along a laptop with decent built-in speakers.

Re:New way getting out of tests (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368867)

With a laptop, maybe?

One problem solved, now the other... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368425)

One problem was solved. Now the other problem needs to be solved. Namely, what causes students to snap and to do that in the first place.

Re:One problem solved, now the other... (1)

FlyHelicopters (1540845) | 2 days ago | (#48368479)

One problem was solved. Now the other problem needs to be solved. Namely, what causes students to snap and to do that in the first place.

^ This... As I said in my longer post, the mental healthcare system in this county is terrible, we don't offer support and help to those in trouble early enough, we wait until they snap and do something stupid...

Re:One problem solved, now the other... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368597)

we don't offer support and help to those in trouble early enough, we wait until they snap and do something stupid...

We *do* offer support and help - they choose not to take advantage of it. You see there's this freedom thing, where if you don't actively pose a threat to yourself or others, the school can't force you into psychological screening to find out if you're planning a mass murder.

Every school has counselors and can make arrangements for other mental health services if a child is having problems. The problem is, the children who snap and kill people aren't using the counselors.

Re:One problem solved, now the other... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368773)

It's still no excuse to start firing guns if the school's mental healthcare system does not support you properly. No matter how fucked up you are mentally, the first and foremost thing we should do is to halt you if you start harming other people.

Re:One problem solved, now the other... (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | 2 days ago | (#48368803)

The entire healthcare system in the US is pretty terrible. And even in countries with good healthcare systems, mental healthcare seems to get little attention. So the state of US mental healthcare must be in shambles.

Re:One problem solved, now the other... (1)

i kan reed (749298) | 2 days ago | (#48368669)

People aren't deterministic. If you haven't undergone substantial emotional strain sometime in middle or high school, you're still in elementary school. Combine that strain with a personality disorder(like psychopathy or borderline) and easy access to firearms, and in at least a few of those cases, a kid is going to make a terrible decision.

People like to simplify down to just the firearms or just the mental disorders can explain it, but it really has to do with people who see no control over their lives, with mental disorders, and seeing the ability to get firearms as an easy answer. All 3 play together.

Re:One problem solved, now the other... (1)

CohibaVancouver (864662) | 2 days ago | (#48368815)

Namely, what causes students to snap and to do that in the first place.

Hormone-addled teens 'snap' all the time, all over the world.

The difference is that the USA they have ready access to guns. In the rest of world, not so much.

wasted money (1)

mrego (912393) | 2 days ago | (#48368427)

No doubt it can be defeated with loud recordings played from cell phones, etc. How long before students conspire in many locations to do these simultaneously at dozens of schools, thus making the millions spent wasted?

Re:wasted money (1)

iggymanz (596061) | 2 days ago | (#48368469)

no, cell phone can't produce 150 dB and up sound level. A stout firework might. but anyone setting those off indoors should get special attention from police and fire dept

Re:wasted money (1)

SJHillman (1966756) | 2 days ago | (#48368483)

I think you grossly underestimate the difference between the maximum volume of a cell phone (or laptop or even most desktop speakers) and the volume of even a relatively small firearm going off.

Re:wasted money (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | 2 days ago | (#48368607)

What if you just hold the speaker directly against the sensor?

Re:wasted money (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368637)

So you're saying that a shooter just has to use a silencer to beat this system...yeah that sounds useful.

Re:wasted money (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368759)

No, they are saying that they just need to use a high-powered air rifle instead of an explosive charge based projectile.

Re:wasted money (1)

PPH (736903) | 2 days ago | (#48368511)

Band. Percussion section. Rimshot.

Re:wasted money (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368551)

There's an app for that. I used a glass break soundboard app to dial in my glass break sensor on burglar alarms I've installed.

Oh but don't worry... the school will just ban the use of apps and anything that could trigger the alarms and everything will be hunky dory.

Re:wasted money (1)

TheCarp (96830) | 2 days ago | (#48368671)

It will still be easier to pull the fire alarm, and yet, that doesn't even happen terribly often. Every year some kids here and there get the bright idea... but seldom has it been a real issue, and dealing with it is hardly going to take anything new.

A kid could do the same thing right now with some fireworks and some creativity. Explosions or gunshots will be reported to the police as is, they will cause panic as is..... this system really does nothing new except reduce the time to report to the police.

So really, in terms of what mischief kids can cause, its nothing new.

Now, if this system calms people down about the risk then maybe it even makes sense. At least, maybe it does in contrast to most of the other short term proposals. Certainly more sense than posting armed gaurds, training teachers, or disarming society.

It certainly isn't a real solution to anything. However, I doubt there are any real short term ones when the real need is the revamping of mental health services that is unlikely to happen and have their desired impact in the time frames where people demand to see "something" be done.

Course, that assumes the whole system isn't just a money hole being used to milk the system....which....is a big assumption when it comes to the government and its contractors.

This is so stupid. (1)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368443)

In every school shooting, the problem has been resolved well before the time it takes the cops to get there. Either the shooter has run out of bullets, killed himself, been subdued by another, or barricaded himself in a room. It wouldn't have changed anything if the police got there a few minutes faster. Now the taxpayers have to pay for a pointless device.

Re:This is so stupid. (2)

FlyHelicopters (1540845) | 2 days ago | (#48368517)

Yep, when is the last time the police actually confronted and stopped the shooter?

Yea, it happens... but just as often, if not more often, some teacher tackles the kid, or as you say, he runs out of bullets, or he shoots himself so he doesn't have to live with what he just did...

Something worth considering... When is the last time a school shooter was a girl? Why is that? No one wants to talk about gender roles anymore, we're all the "same".

That is silly, we CLEARLY aren't the same, yet we keep saying, "no, no, everyone can do everything and both genders are equal".

Benefits, but still misses the point... (2, Insightful)

FlyHelicopters (1540845) | 2 days ago | (#48368449)

While this is a nice idea, and it will of course reduce the response time of law enforcement, it misses the point.

People take guns to school because schools are "gun free zones". They even have big signs posted around them saying, "You are in a gun-free zone".

So... the bad guy is assured that he is the only person with a gun...

How many people walk into police stations and start shooting? Ok, ok, I'm sure it has happened once, somewhere... Does it happen NEARLY as often as school shootings?

Armed teachers, armed parents, would solve this problem. Heck, armed teenagers would solve this problem. When my father went to school, you could still bring your .22 rifle to school, they had a shooting club and people had gun racks in the pack of their pickup trucks. No one would have dreamed of shooting up that school, 20 or 30 kids had guns there.

Of course, the REAL issue isn't even guns, it is mental health. We have kids who are unstable, unbalanced, and unloved, and the system does nothing for them. There is no way to identify problem or challenged kids and get them some help before they go off the deep end.

This isn't limited to kids, we have the same problem with adults. The mental health care system in this county is sad, we don't offer help early enough to those who need it and as a result, we have people who go crazy and do stupid stuff.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

gmclapp (2834681) | 2 days ago | (#48368519)

I wish I had mod points to mod you up. I don't understand how this solution isn't obvious. In short, the problem is that the only person with a gun is the bad guy. EVERYONE'S solution is to call in good guys with guns (cops). This article admits that a step in the right direction is to get good guys with guns to the scene faster. WHY NOT HAVE THEM ON SCHOOL GROUNDS AT ALL TIMES!?!?! It seems painfully obvious.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

FlyHelicopters (1540845) | 2 days ago | (#48368589)

When I went to school, it was a large district, my high school had over 3,000 kids in a three grade school (about 1,100 kids per grade).

We had a off-duty police officer at the school, he even had his own office and he was armed. We had a gang problem in school and fights were not that uncommon. After school on a Friday, just before the football game, it came to blows in the parking lot, one rival gang drove through the parking lot and gunned down another with shotguns. But that was at 6pm well after school hours, and it wasn't inside the school.

While we had petty crime, even drugs being sold between classes, no one shot anyone. The cop was already there. I suspect that he already knew who to keep an eye on and was focused more on serious crimes than petty stuff like pot, but I was 17, what did I know. :)

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (5, Informative)

damn_registrars (1103043) | 2 days ago | (#48368529)

I mostly disagreed with you until you got to

Of course, the REAL issue isn't even guns, it is mental health. We have kids who are unstable, unbalanced, and unloved, and the system does nothing for them. There is no way to identify problem or challenged kids and get them some help before they go off the deep end.

This isn't limited to kids, we have the same problem with adults. The mental health care system in this county is sad, we don't offer help early enough to those who need it and as a result, we have people who go crazy and do stupid stuff.

Because indeed we are dealing with a mental health issue. In particular we are dealing with two mental health issues that are widespread in our country:

  • People don't have access to good mental health treatment options
  • People who seek mental health treatment are still stigmatized for doing so

Until we address those issues we will still have these problems. It doesn't matter where you put guns, detectors, or anything else. All you can do is move the problem around. To make matters worse the 2010 health care bill was more about rewarding terrible insurance companies than it was actually about helping people get access to care that they need.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (4, Interesting)

tompaulco (629533) | 2 days ago | (#48368645)

The problem with schools is that they are a factory for mental illness. The schools put up a front of being "zero tolerance" for bullies, but what it comes down to is that the bullies are protected by the system and the people they bully are punished for standing up to them or fighting back. My best friend and I both have "snapped" at some point and attacked our bullies back and we were both punished for it. I received corporal punishment and he was expelled. I can cite dozens of examples from among my peers where they eventually got fed up and fought back, and were punished for it. The only difference between me and Columbine is the scale. But the message is the same. The people that get picked on year after year and finally stand up to the bullys are the bad guys and the bullys are the martyrs.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368855)

The people that get picked on year after year and finally stand up to the bullys are the bad guys

No, the people that shoot other students dead with guns are the bad guys. You can paint the background however you want, but if you don't want to become the bad guy, don't shoot people dead with guns. It's not "standing up to bullying", it's murder. How any sane person can fail to understand this is beyond me. Being bullied by someone, even continuously for years, doesn't entitle you to shoot them in the face with a .45. That's just not how life works, and if you think it is, you are the problem.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

FlyHelicopters (1540845) | 2 days ago | (#48368681)

It doesn't matter where you put guns, detectors, or anything else. All you can do is move the problem around.

Actually, I do agree with you, either arming teachers or putting police at schools might well move the shooters somewhere else, but you're right, it doesn't solve the problem.

Other than to stop school shootings. :) That was my point, was to make it an unattractive target. Actually fixing the core issue was the mental health park.

People who seek mental health treatment are still stigmatized for doing so

This is a wise point, no one looks down on you if you get cancer and need treatment, you get cards and flowers and balloons and everyone "understands".

If you need to talk to someone about your feelings, then you're just crazy and no one understands.

Which is why we have this problem. It needs to be ok to say, "Doc, I'm feeling all depressed and wound up, sometimes I have crazy thoughts, can we talk about it?" and not have it be an issue.

I think sometimes people just want someone to listen, these shooters are often loners who didn't have friends, or many friends, they didn't feel understood, and were bullied and treated like crap by others.

That ALSO shouldn't be acceptable, and it needs to start with the cool kids. The cheerleaders and jocks and whoever else is popular these days need to step up and take some leadership responsibility to put out the message that bullies will not be tolerated and that everyone is deserving of human decency and respect.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368843)

It's too expensive and unreliable to provide proper mental health support. Psychology just is a damn complex thing. You can pinpoint the problem much better if you strive for a situation where no students have guns, and/or the school has armed guards in watch.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

PPH (736903) | 2 days ago | (#48368579)

Heck, armed teenagers would solve this problem.

So, arm the kids [telegraph.co.uk] .

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

jzarling (600712) | 2 days ago | (#48368591)

Arming more people is not necessarily the answer IMO I would prefer to see ballistic doors, and glass installed - keep the gunman out.
This does not address the vulnerability of drop off and pickup times where I think the local police should provide a presence - its a couple of officers per school, for an hour or two a day - and most large school districts already have some liaison officers - this is just a few more to supplement the liaisons. I agree with your comments on Mental Healthcare - our nation needs a better system.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

FlyHelicopters (1540845) | 2 days ago | (#48368789)

Arming more people is not necessarily the answer

To the overall problem of shooters? No, it isn't...

But the idea is to make the location an unattractive target so they don't try.

If they know that 5 to 10 teachers are armed, they may not get very far. Thus they might not try.

I do NOT want a shootout at school, I have kids in school, that isn't a good idea either. The idea is to make them think twice.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368605)

The front office at Newtowne elementary school did have a pistol in their desk, but they were gunned down before they had a chance to use it. And when you allow staff to have guns, now you have a problem of securing the guns so kids don't break in and take them. Just the kind of stunt that would give the "bad boys" some stature within his crowd.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

FlyHelicopters (1540845) | 2 days ago | (#48368753)

A gun in a desk drawer is useless, it is either on you, or it is useless.

The Texas Concealed Handgun Law was passed because of a shooting at a restaurant. The woman who was there had a gun, 50 feet away in the glovebox in her truck. She watched both her parents executed by the gunman who then passed her by and shot others.

A gun is not useful if you're not wearing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L... [wikipedia.org]

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

Charliemopps (1157495) | 2 days ago | (#48368673)

No... people take guns into schools because those people are Crazy.

Stop trying to make political points by citing the actions of the mentally deranged. They are nuts... there is no rationale to their actions. They are impossible to prevent or prepare for. Until we cure mental illness, there will always be crazy people doing crazy things that upset us. Laws only restrict the rational. The irrational will continue with whatever they were doing irrelevant of weather there is a sign or not.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

Ihlosi (895663) | 2 days ago | (#48368767)

there is no rationale to their actions.

There is some. The shooters usually want posthumous publicity. And the media are usually all too happy to oblige.

The school shooting from 5 years ago is still in the news around here. The shooter probably got more than he wished for.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

j-beda (85386) | 2 days ago | (#48368705)

Of course, the REAL issue isn't even guns, it is mental health. We have kids who are unstable, unbalanced, and unloved, and the system does nothing for them. There is no way to identify problem or challenged kids and get them some help before they go off the deep end.

This isn't limited to kids, we have the same problem with adults. The mental health care system in this county is sad, we don't offer help early enough to those who need it and as a result, we have people who go crazy and do stupid stuff.

I think your thoughts on the use of firearms by the general public are likely to create so strong of a gut-level response (both in support of and against) that your point about mental health issues is likely to be missed. Approaching these problems from the point of view of mental health rather than an exercise in policing tactics response times seems more likley to result in longer term improvements. Regarless of one's position on public use of firearms, I suspect that most people would like to see a society where fewer people were "unstable, unbalanced, and unloved" - it is unfortunate that it is so difficult to get everyone to agree how to address those issues.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368837)

He had such a good take on the topic of mental health and completely ruined it by suggesting we give those very same unstable, unbalanced and unloved kids guns.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (0)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | 2 days ago | (#48368719)

When my father went to school, you could still bring your .22 rifle to school, they had a shooting club and people had gun racks in the pack of their pickup trucks. No one would have dreamed of shooting up that school, 20 or 30 kids had guns there.

I assume your father was white. You are talking about the time when he could have killed any black guy he did not like and nothing bad would have happened to him. Today you see white guys with machine guns refusing identify themselves or provide identity to police officers, standing on their constitutional grounds. And black boys get shot for wearing a hoodie or playing loud music.

White men gather toghter with weapons and point them at federal agents to protect a tax cheat. Nothing happens to them. Black boy walks on the street and gets shot. I will believe you truly believe in gun rights on constitutional grounds, when I see a bunch of white gun rights activists gather their weapon and stand with a bunch of black folks complaining of the heavy handed police actions. Imagine what would happen if the black folks started actually exercising their second amendment rights to fight what they see as government tyranny.

Look at yourself in the mirror and answer it truthfully to yourself: "Did I feel the urge to stand with the people of Ferguson to fight government tyranny using their second amendment rights?".

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (3, Informative)

jandersen (462034) | 2 days ago | (#48368721)

You are so right - it is LACK OF WEAPONS that is causing all these shootings. So, instead of installing security systems, let's install automatic rocket launchers in all schools, and while we're at it, why not put something like VX gas or anthrax in the little perfume dispensers in the toilets?

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368801)

You are so right - it is LACK OF WEAPONS that is causing all these shootings. So, instead of installing security systems, let's install automatic rocket launchers in all schools, and while we're at it, why not put something like VX gas or anthrax in the little perfume dispensers in the toilets?

And how are mass shootings stopped? In the US, Germany, or Norway?

Oh yeah. When more guys with GUNS arrive to stop the shooter.

Why the hell do people who tend to think police are "pigs" and soldiers are "baby killers" want to limit guns to only police and soldiers?

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (1)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368735)

A really quick Google search would have disproved your assertion that people don't shoot up police stations. It happens more frequently than school shootings, which are actually quite rare and get far outsize attention. You're wrong about the gun free zones fallacy. The wild west had plenty of firearms, war zones have plenty of firearms...just having firearms doesn't make anyone safer. Don't get me wrong I'm not out to take your guns away, but you're wrong about guns in school zones helping anything. They won't and simple logic should have taught you that. You can't make anything perfectly safe, bad things will always happen no matter how safe you try to make it. You are correct on the mental health aspect. Maybe if we weren't so hopped up on worrying about stupid issues we could focus on real ones.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368737)

Dude, you are so on the cusp of getting it!

Yes, it is mental health, inequality, regulatory capture, racism that is leading to all the US violence.

But arming the teachers will just lead to the sick people bringing bigger guns and causing more violence and more violent responses.

Put the guns down! Take care of your communities. Know your neighbours. Slow down on the conspicuous consumption.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368763)

Heck, armed teenagers would solve this problem.

We have kids who are unstable, unbalanced, and unloved, and the system does nothing for them. There is no way to identify problem or challenged kids and get them some help before they go off the deep end.

You know what we should do then? Give those unstable, unbalanced, and unloved kids who we can't identify guns. As you suggest.

If my eyes rolled any harder they'd detach from my optical nerve.

Re:Benefits, but still misses the point... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368813)

How many people walk into police stations and start shooting? Ok, ok, I'm sure it has happened once, somewhere... Does it happen NEARLY as often as school shootings? Does it matter? You're going to base your arguments on assuming it doesn't happen very often rather than let real facts persuade you. Even a quick google shows it happens more than once: 3 Officers Shot At Police Station, Suspect Killed, Officials Say Police Station Shooting - Huffington Post LAPD Officer Shot Multiple Times in Gun-Battle Inside Lobby ... Man opens fire on police stations, patrol cars in Washington ... 4 police officers shot at Detroit police station all expected to ... Drive-by Shooter Opens Fire on Police Station Gunman dead after shooting 3 cops at NJ police station Man opens fire on police stations, cars in Snohomish Co ... Detectives injured in ambush shooting outside police station ... (Yes, some may be the same incident. I couldn't be bothered to read more than the headlines...)

meanwhile in the real world (0, Troll)

ihtoit (3393327) | 2 days ago | (#48368457)

...police still take 45 minutes to arrive during which time thirty kids get shot to shit and a teacher hides in a closet.

fuck this high tech solution bullshit, just fucking arm the teachers with a "If you're not meant to be here you WILL GET SHOT" policy.

Spree shooters aren't polite. They will not wait for the po-pos to arrive to negotiate, they're running through a school, with weapons, and with intent. The sooner they are STOPPED permanently the better it will be for EVERYBODY.

Re:meanwhile in the real world (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368547)

spree shooters are also rare. this is an over reaction to a small problem

Re:meanwhile in the real world (1)

sinij (911942) | 2 days ago | (#48368565)

>>>just f**king arm the teachers
What if it is teacher, or someone known to teacher that goes postal?

>>>If you're not meant to be here
Why would anyone want to send kids to a place where potential for mistaken judgment call, no matter how unlikely, will result in getting shot? Consider this, on a national scale incidences of school shooting are rather low, but incidences of bone-headed decisions by stuff and teachers are not.

Re:meanwhile in the real world (1)

qbast (1265706) | 2 days ago | (#48368741)

fuck this high tech solution bullshit, just fucking arm the teachers with a "If you're not meant to be here you WILL GET SHOT" policy.

Have we suddenly switched to discussing prisons or we are still talking about schools - you know, place full of kids who will happily do whatever you are forbidding them to do.

Accuracy (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368459)

I guess these sensors can distinguish the sound between an idiot throwing a hardback book flat on the floor and a real gunshot? They would sound pretty similar!

I have seen the future... (1)

DumbSwede (521261) | 2 days ago | (#48368467)

Ahhh, the wonderful future were societal problems are solved with technology. Fast forward ten years and the system is being enhanced to immobilize the shooter or tranq them in some fashion – works so well it gets rolled out to every store and fast food joint. Pretty soon everyone everywhere is constantly monitored for signs of aberrant behavior and an automated response ready to be applied. The future will be wonderful.

school shot detection (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368477)

sounds like the shot-spotter pulled from roof tops and installed in a building. yawn

Clearly they have too much Tax Money (1)

jafiwam (310805) | 2 days ago | (#48368493)

Clearly, if they have time and money to spend on these very rare events, they have too much money. I see budget cuts in the future.

Re:Clearly they have too much Tax Money (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368785)

The whole point is to move tax money to a company that makes detectors so they can in return pay some politician

Re:Clearly they have too much Tax Money (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368863)

They absolutely, positively do.

But some would have you believe that without even more, we'll live in a world without schools, roads or fire departments.

What a Waste (1)

gregulator (756993) | 2 days ago | (#48368499)

Wow... what a waste. Now they can notify in seconds the police who will be there in minutes. Amazing.

Take that $100k per school and add those auto-closing door that they have for fire separation to every classroom.Have them be locked for outside access. And throw a layer of ballistic material down the inside. Add some ballistic material to the walls.

When someone pulls the "shooter" alarm, just like a "fire" alarm, the doors will close and the sirens will sound.

Now, this wont stop all deaths, but it will prevent the shooter from moving from room to room. And it will make the "bunker in place" method that most schools employ actually viable.

But no, instead some podunk school district gets suckered in by a scam of a system in SDS/ShotSpotter.

Re:What a Waste (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368733)

Yeah, because installing a system like that would take WAY less than $100k, you're right. It's far better to waste even more money on a solution that cannot legally be put in place because of fire codes.

Oh whoops, doors locked shut? School Shooter becomes a School Arsonist, with a much higher body count. Just show up with a few cans of gas and some matches.

Hey, I know, why don't we turn our high schools into 4-year penitentiaries instead. Students are shipped off at the beginning of their freshman year, and spend the next 4 years locked in a prison where they can't ever leave. After all, if they can't leave, they can't leave and bring back a gun! Got any other brain-busters for us, champ?

Congratulations, you're retarded.

Re:What a Waste (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368769)

This isn't a podunk school district unfortunately, Methuen is just outside of Boston and is....kind of rough.

Great idea (1)

korbulon (2792438) | 2 days ago | (#48368507)

We need to divert resources away from teaching and put more resources into preventing students from getting any actual learning done. An educated populace is a nuisance to the establishment oligarchy's military-industrial-finance-media complex.

100k per school? (1)

j-beda (85386) | 2 days ago | (#48368563)

School shootings are bad. They are also rare on a per-school basis. Chicago for example has about 613 elementary and high schools - is it a wise use of resources to spend up to 61 million dollars for this type of system? I bet we would save more lives by hiring an extra crossing guard per school, or putting in traffic speed bumps around the school.

Re:100k per school? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368757)

stop using common sense, there is a system in place on how to handle such things

put money in the pockets of the company that makes gunshot detectors, so they can pay politicians. Politicians can campaign that they are the ones doing something to "save the children"

Re:100k per school? (2)

qbast (1265706) | 2 days ago | (#48368761)

But ... but ... if even *one* live is saved, it is totally worth it! Why won't you think of the children?

Is it worth it? (4, Insightful)

djchristensen (472087) | 2 days ago | (#48368581)

That equates to something like $2B to $10B to equip all the public schools in the US to stop a very small number of deaths. Such a system would have done nothing for the kids in the school in Washington State a few weeks back. I think very few of these school shootings last long enough for a system like this to make a real difference. But it makes people feel safer to think their kids are protected. I just wonder how much more effective that money could be at helping the potential perpetrators and preventing the shootings in the first place. It's amazing to me how stupid we are in this country that $20K+ per school to react faster to a catastrophe is so much more palatable than helping distressed kids and preventing the catastrophe in the first place.

Stupid school. Also nice new prank. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368583)

1) how often is someone shooting in that school ? If it is less than 1 per month how is that useful usage of money ?

2) Did the director get a bribe to get such a system installed ?

3) get a good digital record with a nice volume , go to firing range, record shooting, play at school.

narrow focus as usual (1)

resfilter (960880) | 2 days ago | (#48368603)

it hasn't come up yet, but im pretty sure if someone (including the voices in my head) said 'kill a bunch of people in this room without using guns or knives' i'd figure out an effective way to do it pretty quickly.

that's ignoring the fact that this gun detector is circumvented by maximum rounds fired per however long it takes the cops to get there. i realize they know this too, but since you can kill a hell of a lot of people with automatic weapons in a few minutes, someone truly dedicated to shooting up a school is going to make a game of it now.

How do you test such a system? (1)

Kevoco (64263) | 2 days ago | (#48368609)

Starting pistol?

population control through fear mogering and intim (5, Insightful)

real gumby (11516) | 2 days ago | (#48368611)

From TFA:

Suzanne Kennan, a resident who lives across from the school...supported the investment anyway.

‘‘Unfortunately we’re at a point where we have to do something like this,’’

Yes, we're at a point where the level of violent crime is at its lowest in 40 years [time.com] but apparently a crazy response is needed regardless.

Needless to say, there's no discussion in this article. Simply a visit to the school for the demonstration, a quick chat with the cops, and a thoughtless quote from the neighbor.

I have a kid in school and frankly I think all this pseudo "security" is more dangerous for shaping future civic involvement than the anhistorical gibberish in the history books.

Hmmm ... what next (1)

gstoddart (321705) | 2 days ago | (#48368613)

Should they install barriers in case of Zombie attacks?

Should they install anti-aircraft artillery in case of air attack?

Should everyone wear hazmat suits in case of anthrax attacks?

What, exactly, is the threshold for buying things to cover a hypothetical situation? Should all schools have gunfire detection systems installed?

Maybe all schools need an assigned SWAT team so there's no transportation delay if this ever happens?

I understand the source of the fear, but the idea that some company is going to make zillions in selling this to school boards on the off beat chance it ever happens there just seems a little shady.

You could drop metric butt loads of cash on this kind of problem, and it seems like it's going to be mostly wasted money. Because most places where you install it will never need it.

This sounds like an awesome outcome for the companies who sell these things. Very lucrative, good for shareholder value and executive bonuses.

Is it money well spent for the school?

Re:Hmmm ... what next (1)

AqD (1885732) | 2 days ago | (#48368861)

What else can they do? Should they do nothing?

A technical solution to a person problem? (1)

Kevoco (64263) | 2 days ago | (#48368639)

The shooter will just go to a different school.

20-100 computers worth of cost. (2, Insightful)

gurps_npc (621217) | 2 days ago | (#48368667)

20-100k? You got to be kidding.

Amazing how much the pro-gun lobby wants to waste on expensive crap like this, rather than simply allowing for effective laws. Hell, for most of what we need, we don't even need to create new laws, just start enforcing the current ones - in part by firing idiotic state government employees that refuse to comply with with federal reporting requirments

Sensitivity and specificity. (1)

Ihlosi (895663) | 2 days ago | (#48368677)

This system will give the student practical insights into the meaning of sensitivity and specificity.

What percentage of gunshots will it detect? What is the rate of false detections? Can you trigger the detection by slapping the flat side of a ruler against the table?

And they will only have to fire 5 teachers (1)

tompaulco (629533) | 2 days ago | (#48368707)

And to pay for this, they only have to fire 5 teachers. And they have to hire 5 more administrators. Pretty soon, the number of administrators will be double the number of teachers.

gah (1)

GrimShady (2714901) | 2 days ago | (#48368715)

I believe this is an idiotic boondoggle.

This stuff is getting absurd (0)

Anonymous Coward | 2 days ago | (#48368749)

What is the statistical change of this happening at a school? I think on the list of what to spend money this should be near the bottom.

Wouldn't know what's going on? (1)

Chas (5144) | 2 days ago | (#48368751)

Without that shot detection system, we wouldn't know what was going on in the school

I would think that the loud bangs, screaming, and fleeing people would be a dead giveaway.

Expensive and will be unused (2)

bobjr94 (1120555) | 2 days ago | (#48368809)

What are there, maybe 4 school shootings per year in the US ? And 98,000 public schools. What does that make the odds of a school actually having a shooting, about 1 in 25,000 ?

Lock-em down (1)

alphabet26 (534873) | 2 days ago | (#48368827)

I am unimpressed. Call me when they tied the detectors into a system that mag-locks the doors and windows shut to confine the shooter in one location. False alarm? Minor inconvenience in that area until a school constable or principal investigates and signals the all-clear.

and then someone farts really loud (1)

zwarte piet (1023413) | 2 days ago | (#48368857)

or sets off a firecracker
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