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Microsoft Losing the School Markets To iPads and Chromebooks

samzenpus posted yesterday | from the falling-beyond dept.

Education 212

dkatana writes Microsoft's licensing scheme, the high cost of support and difficult management of devices are the key factors making schools drop Windows for better alternatives as iPads and Chromebooks. Google is making a dent in the education market with Chromebooks. The internet giant has been promoting the use of Chrome OS with specific tools for schools to manage the devices, their apps and users. Its Chromebooks for Education program is helping schools deploy large numbers of devices with an easy management system. While Google is successful with Chromebooks as school laptops the clear winner on tablets is Apple. iPads are a the preferred platform for schools deploying tablets as digital learning devices.

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Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

BringsApples (3418089) | yesterday | (#48375193)

Did I just read "School Market"? Leave my kids alone!

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (5, Interesting)

Urban Nightmare (147344) | yesterday | (#48375333)

Here here. I'm not a fan of either MS or Apple but I'm even less of a fan computers in the classroom. Computers do have their place for research and writing papers but I just don't think they need to be used every day in the classroom.

Now I may be an old fuddy-duddy, but I still haven't seen conclusive evidence that they make learning any easier or better.

But that's only my 2 cents.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (2)

BarbaraHudson (3785311) | yesterday | (#48375349)

I still haven't seen conclusive evidence that they make learning any easier or better.

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none (that weren't sponsored by someone trying to sell stuff) that showed they improved learning.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (5, Interesting)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | yesterday | (#48375413)

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none that showed they improved learning.

Warning, anecdotal evidence ahead:
I regularly volunteer at my kids school, and have worked with their "special needs" kids, including several autistic students. These are kids that have difficulty with human interaction, and don't do well in a regular classroom. But they seem to interact well with tablets, and there are some apps that are specifically tailored to autistic kids. So tablets do seem to have a niche. But for "normal" kids, I agree that tablets are a distraction and a waste of resources.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

funwithBSD (245349) | yesterday | (#48375617)

My son is on the mild side of the autistic spectrum, with sensory/motor issues, particularly fine motor skills.

He has used a computer since 1st grade as his ability to write with a pencil is compromised. Writing assignments that are in class are done on the computer, and then sent to the class printer.

I have a hard time finding a fault with computers in the classroom. I spend 8 to 12 hrs a working day on the computer, he will probably follow that path.

How much better it is to integrate it into his skill set then use it to do useful things, rather than take a "computer class" to learn to use Word.

Absurdity Itself (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | yesterday | (#48375725)

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none (that weren't sponsored by someone trying to sell stuff) that showed they improved learning.

It all comes down to what software is used on them, not the mere factor of having them, and with the right software it seems silly to think they cannot improve learning.

They improve learning for me as an adult, why can the same be impossible for a child? Even if it's just for learning still assisted by an adult, why can it not be better?

Re:Absurdity Itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375855)

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none (that weren't sponsored by someone trying to sell stuff) that showed they improved learning.

It all comes down to what software is used on them, not the mere factor of having them, and with the right software it seems silly to think they cannot improve learning.

They improve learning for me as an adult, why can the same be impossible for a child? Even if it's just for learning still assisted by an adult, why can it not be better?

because i had strength to give yo mama some lovin', that's why

Re:Absurdity Itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375895)

I just want you to know that you're personally responsible for turning me into an iPhobe.

Thanks.

Re: Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48376165)

Hah. Fuck "studies."

Load up a social app in the middle if the day. Guaranteed to be kids everywhere saying "ermahgurd I'm soooo bored". And if you knew how many adults were with them saying horrible things if not outright flirting with them you would not only support removing technology from schools, but probably from their lives entirely.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375355)

I just went to my kid's parent-teacher conference. It took the teacher several minutes of fiddling with the computer to get to the point where I could "sign in" as having shown up. Would've taken seconds with a paper list.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

Noah Haders (3621429) | yesterday | (#48375547)

or with an ipad...

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375615)

ipad would have broken seconds after the 3rd person touched it, they're craftsmanship is crap, their construction is weak, and their OS is pure garbage.

Re: Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48376009)

Like your post? THAT is complete crap and garbage. You really don't know what you are talking about. You just don't.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

Stormwatch (703920) | yesterday | (#48375409)

Here here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

jeffb (2.718) (1189693) | yesterday | (#48375435)

There, there.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (2)

dgatwood (11270) | yesterday | (#48376093)

They're their there.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375809)

"Now, now."

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

Spy Handler (822350) | yesterday | (#48375941)

if he had a Chromebook while he was in school, he might've learned how to spell Hear Hear properly...

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

globaljustin (574257) | yesterday | (#48375471)

in general you're right...

i'd want a "tech cart" with laptops for all of them so they can take quizes and such...instant grading for multiple choice quiz...which frees up the teacher to focus on students with special needs

but yeah, inherently you're right

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (2)

Immerman (2627577) | yesterday | (#48375571)

Never took a scantron test in school I take it? All the benefits of near-instant grading of multiple choice exams, none of the distractions or expense of having a computer in front of the students while they're taking an exam.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (2)

ATMAvatar (648864) | yesterday | (#48376119)

Scantron was rather notorious for missing bubbles that weren't filled-in just right or with the right type of pencil when I was still in school. Has it gotten any better?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375531)

Let's see:

Send your kid to school with an ipad: 600$
Send you school to kid with half their bodyweight in books: multi-thousand dollars in medical costs when they slip on the ice or break a bone when another kid hits them with their own 50lbs of books.

I SEE the reasoning why an iPad or any other computer might not belong in the classroom, but there are other costs that people don't even think about. Certain classes do not warrant an iPad, eg PE (in which even cell phones should be banned from) but anything that involves sitting means it can be done sitting somewhere more pertinent to the study. Like if the class is going on a field trip, instead of going there and not doing anything productive (really when was the last time a field trip was productive unless it was PE) you whip out the ipad and tell the students to take pictures of the following exhibits, requiring them to find and read.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (4, Interesting)

Immerman (2627577) | yesterday | (#48375659)

Economics fail: analysis of probabilistic expenses need to factor in the probability of occurrence. Expected cost = (multi-thousand dollars in medical costs) * (near-zero odds of such an accident occurring) $600. And don't forget the alternate risks of mugging you're subjecting children to by having them carry around a $600 thief-magnet rather than some books nobody wants.

And your use case may sound good, but we all know what will usually happen is that most students will spend their time chatting online, playing video games, etc. and get less out of the experience than if they had no supplies at all. And what's wrong with carrying a paper and pencil and an applicable textbook? Much cheaper when inevitably lost or destroyed, and they'll even get a bit more exercise in the bargain, and lord only knows they probably need it.

There may be a niche for integrating computers computers into general education for normal children, but it would probably have to be a purpose-built machine: everything I've seen to date is worse than useless for the purpose.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375831)

Kids, these days. We had to walk to school in driving snow, uphill both ways, with only a slate and chalk in hand.

Now get off my lawn.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | yesterday | (#48375913)

Certain classes do not warrant an iPad, eg PE

There are a number of sport performance monitor apps that exist for the iPad, some that make use of the camera to record and monitor form... a tablet can actually be very helpful for sports being a computer and camera integrated.

Re: Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48376173)

When i was in middle school I carried every book I needed through the day on me at all times.

Result: I have strong bones and muscles.

You may have grown up to be a massive pussy, but why would you want your kid to turn out like you?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

quenda (644621) | yesterday | (#48375565)

Here here.

Where, where?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375799)

"Hear, hear"

Publiek Skooling much?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48376103)

Heuked on Phoenix twerked four mi.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (0)

rtb61 (674572) | yesterday | (#48376185)

Basically the first point of using computers in school is to save money. Instead or inordinately expensive, soon to be out of date text books, free online creative commons texts continually refined, represents a major saving. When it comes to laptops versus tablets, the obvious difference is between creating content versus consuming licensed content. Obviously creating content is far better than being a manipulated target market for corporate profits and blindly consuming licensed content.

The big advantage in using computers in schools will be the teaching of complex simulations, where students learn the outcomes of manipulating the inputs and for the more advanced students the impacts of altering the controlling algorithms. Shifting from simple quick dirty physics (ignoring a lot of the inputs) to more actual physics based on real interactions that can be simulated using many more inputs will enable teaching more but of course only for those capable of absorbing it.

Computer education on it's own will never really do so much for the below average intellect but for the above average intellect it will provide many opportunities for greater early learning. The interesting problem this will create in the classroom, is a profound intellectual divide, as those who can race ahead and the other 50% fall further behind, to become disgruntled right wingers for whom thinking from the gut is smart and who consider higher education qualifications a stupid waste of time.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

brantondaveperson (1023687) | yesterday | (#48376319)

That's right, children should not be taught to use the single most important innovation in communication and content creation to be invented since the pencil and paper.

Oh. Wait.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what? (1)

davester666 (731373) | yesterday | (#48375901)

Sorry, your children have already been purchased for rest of their time in school. It will cost you $20,000 if you want to take them out of school and try to screw them up yourself.

Nonsense (1)

cybrthng (22291) | yesterday | (#48375229)

Microsoft licensing isn't really an issue, the OS is free on certain profiles such as small tablets and mobile devices and with everything hinted at with Windows 10 it appears that the OS will become further more affordable to consumers/end users. Schools also get incentive programs, discounts and free student/teacher licenses. If anything, Microsoft is embracing Android & iOS more these days so the biggest loser stands to be ChromeBooks in the end. Windows devices are price point competitive with ChromeBooks. Visual Studio being free, .Net going cross platform, Windows for "Free" on mobile/tablet platforms.. this all seems like nonsense.

Re:Nonsense (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375313)

Too little, too late - especially with such a crapfest OS that continues to use the biggest piece of shit interface since people wrote with dried manure.

Modern UI (metro) is the crappiest UI I have ever seen, I prefer command line over that steaming pile of excrement.

Re:Nonsense (3, Funny)

narcc (412956) | yesterday | (#48376327)

Too little, too late - especially with such a crapfest OS that continues to use the biggest piece of shit interface since people wrote with dried manure.

Look, I'm no fan of Android, but it's not THAT bad.

Re:Nonsense (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375353)

.Net going cross platform? Yawn. Don't expect everybody to rush to use an outdated architecture.

VS being free impresses VS fans and no one else.

"Price point" means nothing. People routinely and gladly pay more money for Apple products, because they work better.

What you're looking at is a business in panic mode. This isn't the sort of move that winners make.

Re:Nonsense (3, Informative)

Blaskowicz (634489) | yesterday | (#48375445)

With a network of hundreds of tablets that need to be locked down, managed, protected against malware, needing to access content etc. you'd better want them to join a Windows domain. The free Windows version won't allow that.

I think the idea sucks anyway whatever the OS is. A tablet has less display estate than A4 paper and an open book. Bright screen stealing attention is especially worrying. Wifi is a nightmare, but a USB plug on each desk that gives wired ethernet access could remedy that.
Moving, overbright (with bad black levels) crap don't believe in a classroom. Give the kids something with a keyboard and a monochrome LCD.

Re:Nonsense (1)

Noah Haders (3621429) | yesterday | (#48375563)

what is A4? what is monochrome? what is USB wired ethernet? Your concepts are strange to me.

Re:Nonsense (3, Informative)

dgatwood (11270) | yesterday | (#48376153)

USB-wired Ethernet means reverse tethering. Unfortunately, it really isn't practical on a classroom scale, because of the distances involved, not to mention that general-purpose computers aren't really all that great at handling high-speed network routing for thirty or forty machines to begin with, and USB's excessive CPU overhead just piles on top of that.

It would be cheaper and more reliable to install a dedicated Wi-Fi hot spot in every classroom with a fairly directional antenna on the ceiling, and set the maximum transmit power really low so each classroom acts like its own microcell that is roughly limited to the bounds of the room. Chances are, a single shared Wi-Fi connection is plenty fast enough for a single classroom, and in my experience, as long as you aren't doing tethering, Wi-FI works very well on iOS (the recent WPA2 Enterprise networking authentication changes in iOS 8 notwithstanding). It's only a nightmare on Windows, which is probably one of the reasons that Microsoft is getting stomped into the ground in school markets.... But I digress.

BTW, does anybody else find it odd for an article to say that MS is losing the market? Normally "-ing" verbs imply that something is happening right now. I was under the impression that they had pretty much lost the K-12 market to iPads years ago.

Re:Nonsense (1)

Blaskowicz (634489) | yesterday | (#48376315)

I am thinking of a semi-hidden USB networking card, quite simply! if we can have the USB device (NIC) feeding the host power.
You then merely need to run CAT5 to each and every desk and it all goes to a switch (that has 1Gb/s uplink to the school network). Use Power over Ethernet and 100Mb/s, micro-switches to reduce the cabling.
It's perhaps a mess : bury cables in the floor, use a raised floor, cables descending from ceiling, floor cable protectors as seen on the ground in concerts? But it would seem to be the reliable solution and powering/charging the devices is nice to have.

One Wifi router per classroom is perhaps nice (with 5GHz so the teacher can at least get bandwith)
It would suck big times if a couple idiots show up, install them all, let them set at max power outputs then leave the school never to be seen again. (now hope the login is "admin/password")

Re:Nonsense (1)

brantondaveperson (1023687) | yesterday | (#48376329)

Wifi is a nightmare

How so? Seems to work fine at my Kids primary school and intermediate school.

Re:Nonsense (1)

mysidia (191772) | yesterday | (#48375457)

the OS is free on certain profiles such as small tablets and mobile devices and with everything hinted at with Windows 10 it appears that the OS will become further more affordable to consumers/end users.

Everyone knows the real cost is the CALS. The endpoint OS may be free, but the management comes at a hefty price.

Re: Nonsense (1)

kenh (9056) | yesterday | (#48375709)

School under Education License agreements pay about $34/year per desktop for the current OS, current edition of Office, and CALs to access Exchange & SQL Server (both also current edition)... And all that goes with it (Active Directory). The only 'gotcha' is that the computers need to have some form of current Windows OS (as low as Win 7 Starter if buying new hardware).

Re: Nonsense (1)

David Jao (2759) | yesterday | (#48376335)

I'll go one further. The real cost is not licensing, and it is not CALs. Everyone knows the real cost is LIABILITY. Horror stories abound of BSA licensing audits gone amok. Funny how Microsoft's Total Cost of Ownership studies always ignore the cost of license compliance, and always ignore the risk of multi-million dollar BSA penalties for even the most minor infractions.

I avoid all non-free software from BSA member organizations. If the BSA comes knocking, they get the door slammed on them until they come back with a court-issued warrant.

Re:Nonsense (4, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | yesterday | (#48375477)

Schools pay less than corporate customers; but (at least when I was doing IT for a school district) there was still a significant gap between 'less than corporate' and 'what our budget could absorb without pain'.

Yes, for certain consumer/BYOD scenarios, on rather crippled devices, MS has succumbed to the inevitable and cut prices to the bone. However, if you still want things like 'laptops with keyboards' or 'Active Directory for credentials handling and some semblance of management', it's a punch in the wallet. More so if you go for a full Office/Exchange setup, and if you need to go into System Center, or a third party equivalent (Altiris used to kick ass; but Symantec purchased it and has been ruining it lately) for imaging and more robust control than pure AD.

MS doesn't have the pricing power of Big Blue in the Days of Yore; but even with educational discounts it adds up uncomfortably fast.

Chromebooks are, admittedly, rather limited; but chromeOS + Apps for Education can do credentials, a fair amount of configuration, and get students typing away impressively quickly and cheaply compared to the alternatives. There are things you simply can't do, full stop; but within their scope those things are damned efficient.

iPads are slick, and have all the 'apps' and iBook-only textbooks and similar stuff; but management might as well have been designed to remind you that Apple hates enterprise and institutional customers. They aren't as bad as they used to be; but even with a full MDM setup, it's a massive pain in the ass(Though, while chromeOS is absurdly better, Android is even worse).

Actual OSX devices are much better behaved, as are Windows systems with enough licenses in place for a full AD setup; but the hardware is either more expensive or less portable and doesn't offer the exciting finger-painting action that users crave for some stupid reason.

Re:Nonsense (1)

funwithBSD (245349) | yesterday | (#48375633)

Based on what I am seeing at work, a good bit of this IBM/Apple unholy alliance is centered around IBM management tools and OSX devices.

We shall see if it flys...

Re:Nonsense (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | yesterday | (#48375699)

iOLotusNotes is going to land right in Gartner's magic quadrant, that's for sure...

Re:Nonsense (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | yesterday | (#48375783)

A marriage of Hypercard and Lotus Notes?

Re:Nonsense (1)

innerweb (721995) | yesterday | (#48376305)

I remember using Hypercard to help with some classes in grade school in the late 80 and early 90s. It was magic. The students (4th and 5th grade) used it with something called Jasper. It was amazing how much faster the entire class (even the typically slower children) grasped not only the lessons, but the new tools. They excelled more with that tool set than other tool set I had ever seen. The children developed their presentations using the Hypercard stacks and then presented them to the entire grade level. They were almost all completely engaged and focused without the teachers having to keep on them. This worked throughout the years it was used, and unlike every other medium used, the students with very few exceptions never strayed from the subjects when done with Hypecard. It was more popular for most of the students than recess was!

Unfortunately we were given a new IT director in the mid 90s (who is still in the same position) who decided that IBM and MS were the only way to go and that nothing outside of MS was worth anything. So, the Jasper program and the Hypercard application were canned. Nothing else ever came close to that success. We still have the same person in charge, and our IT in the system is based on MS and barely functional outside of administrative use (depending on who you ask, not even performing that well with the administrative tasks).

My youngest child is passing through high school, and I get to hear about the problems they have on a daily basis from the current teachers and administrators. The only school not having any problems is a magnet school that is currently outside of the current IT dept and uses linux and is now including android devices. They do their work in Open Office and create their presentations in HTML. They are group and project focused. The kids coming out of that school routinely wind up getting good academic scholarships and good jobs after college. Now, I am certain you can not blame all of that on software, but given the issues of compatibility of different versions of MS products, many students not being able to afford the MS products (or PCs), I am also certain that the software choices are a central part of the issue.

Re:Nonsense (4, Insightful)

perpenso (1613749) | yesterday | (#48375743)

Chromebooks ... There are things you simply can't do, full stop

As a school oriented laptop that is probably a plus. Email, browser, google docs, ... plus the education focused classroom stuff ... that sounds highly capable. Being "locked down" doesn't seem like a negative here, probably solves more problems than it creates.

Microsoft is embracing Android? (1)

lippydude (3635849) | yesterday | (#48375577)

"If anything, Microsoft is embracing Android & iOS more these days", cybrthng

Yea, that's why they are extorting patent licenses from Android hardware manufacturers and polluting the Internet with fake Android security FUD ..

OS Flaw Leaves Android Wide Open for App Hack Attacks, [linuxinsider.com] Richard Adhikari [ucr.edu]

Re:Nonsense (4, Interesting)

TheReaperD (937405) | yesterday | (#48375767)

Having worked for a school district, I can tell you that licensing was a major issue but, not for the reasons that most people think. It has nothing to do with cost even though the licenses were pricy. The problem was the technical solutions that Microsoft instituted to try and enforce their licensing that was the issue. We either had to do limited activation licences that were use and loose which is a major problem when you're doing network imaging as you burn through the licences like they're tissue paper or you had to run clunky and unreliable "activation servers" with severe technical limitations and were even more problematic with people with laptops. In the end, we had to do a hybrid solution on both methods to try and keep our copies of Windows and Office activated and even then it wasn't 100% effective. We were looking for ANY alternative to this nightmare that we could make work; even if it wasn't ideal.

Re:Nonsense (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48376459)

Wow, as someone involved in the educational software market let me just give you a heads up that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And BTW Microsoft licensing is easily the biggest issue in educational markets. They give "deals" to schools but then they make the school buy these blanket licenses for all sorts of stuff they don't need. Also, I know of schools that were running donated copies of Windows and Office on donated hardware and MS straigtht up sued the shit out of them through the BSA. Don't even get me started on their server software.

Posting AC because just mentioning schools getting sued by the BSA violates the gag-order they imposed and I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

What do you think Windows 8.1 with Bing is for? (1)

0xdeaddead (797696) | yesterday | (#48375259)

and all those ~$100 tablets. If Microsoft didn't lower the cost of Windows to zero those would all be Android tablets.

Re:What do you think Windows 8.1 with Bing is for? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375567)

What do you think Windows 8.1 with Bing is for?

To finish what Windows Vista started, kill off Microsoft for good.

losing their shit? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375305)

Started reading title as "Microsoft Losing Their Shit..."

I haven't slept in 30 hours.

Translation (1)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375341)

No one wants a surface, unless it's to use as a stand for an iPad.

Re:Translation (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375369)

iPads are good for certain things such as holding papers down and propping up a table that has one leg shorter than the others.

Re:Translation (1)

Noah Haders (3621429) | yesterday | (#48375593)

No one wants a surface, unless it's to use as a stand for an iPad.

AC is making a reference to recent CNN coverage of the US elections. MS paid the network to have all their anchors visibly use surface tablets. But some of the anchors were busted for having ipads propped up behind the surface. Link, bitch. [9to5mac.com]

brawndo (1)

NotQuiteReal (608241) | yesterday | (#48375825)

It's all good;

Chrome, Surface, iPad, they all have Brawndo, it's got electrolytes!

Compromise combos don't work (3, Interesting)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | yesterday | (#48375427)

Years ago there were two motorcycles that showed up at my local Honda motorcycle dealer. One was the Pacific Coast and I forget the name of the other. The PC was a combination of a racing bike and a touring bike like a goldwing; while the other was a combination of a racing bike and a Harley Davidson. I really wanted a PC as it actually met my unusual needs at the time really nicely but couldn't afford it. But around 3 years went by and the dealership hadn't sold a single one. So they discounted them heavily and sold a few. The rest just sat for around 2 more years and then Honda kicked in for them to do a massive discount. I missed out on the deal but the end result was that they sold the PC for a really good price but basically gave away the other one. My brother managed to buy one for around $1600 when the original price was around $5,000.

Basically while both bikes were perfectly good people either wanted a touring bike or a sport bike; and in the second case wanted a sport bike or a Harley like bike.

Over the years I have seen similar products arrive with much hype but then sort of wither away and die. Go to any hardware store and someone has combined an Axe and something else. Or a screwdriver with a flashlight. Yet go back a year later and these sorts of products are gone only to be replaced with another bunch of doomed combo products. Once in a blue moon something like the Swiss army knife comes along that does combine things well but again it doesn't really replace a good kitchen knife, good scissors, or a good screwdriver it thrives on its portability and the fact that you get so many tools for a fairly low price.

Then there all kinds of similar failures like the El Camino. Basically it won the hearts of movie Latino gangsters and that is about it. Or all those promotional office supplies that try to shoehorn a calculator in. Binders, pens, etc. I don't think I ever did a single calculation on a promotional calculator integrated into some office supply. And sometimes there are those products that won't die. All in one printers. For most people those things just suck. Their drivers ruin machines, none of the features are that good and most people just end up using them as printers. Or TV DVD/VCR players... junk.

The surface is a perfect example of one of these compromise combos. It is a laptop, that is a tablet, that runs windows, that costs a pile of money. When I use my tablet I use it for tablet stuff like playing simple games, surfing the web for specific information, watching videos, but not for programming, writing books, or anything that it would do terribly. But my laptop literally has no games and I don't even watch many videos on it, it is purely for work when I am on the go.

Last Christmas I tried to buy a Chromebook for my mother in law because she needs a lightweight (powerwise) laptop that she can't screw up. She primarily needs it for email. There were a bunch around $250 which would have been perfect had they not been all out of stock. So basically I was viewing the chromebook as a really cheap underpowered laptop; but still a laptop.

So when looking at the surface I just don't see where it fits into a need that customers have. If they need a laptop there are plenty of laptops that are far cheaper than the surface that are only a little bigger. If they want a tablet there are far better tablets for far less money. If they need a powerful laptop then again there are far better laptops for far less money. In fact a good laptop and a good tablet will cost less than a surface.

But then there is a whole other reality. Most people don't really need a laptop or desktop any more. I suspect that this does not apply to most slashdotters but out in the wild most people create very little content and barely need a keyboard; hence the huge demand for large tablet like phones as these are often people's primary interface to the internet. But if they do need to type a bit more than the average bear then they can get an older used laptop or a chromebook for very little money. But if they are power content creators they will have to go to a real laptop (better power for the money) or go all the way to a desktop (way more power period). So I don't really see where the surface fits into this mess?

So I am going to stick with my observation that combo products don't really work and that just like Honda 20 some years ago MS is going to either have to pick a traditional product category or dump the entire concept. But for the small audience of people who have lives that fit the surface perfectly they will be happy with the deep discounts.

Re:Compromise combos don't work (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375581)

The surface works in thin niche between "I need the power of a low/mid-end laptop with the input options of a desktop" , so if you're doing art, yes the surface is perfect. Well... the Surface 2 was perfect. The surface 3 is trash because they replaced the functional Wacom digitizer with the extremely weak Ntrig digitizer. The end result is a tablet that is unsuitable for any use.

The iPad replaces text-books. That is what it's for. Anything it can do on top of that is a bonus.

Re:Compromise combos don't work (1)

koan (80826) | yesterday | (#48375651)

I fell asleep reading this...

Re: Compromise combos don't work (1)

kenh (9056) | yesterday | (#48375813)

"In fact a good laptop and a good tablet will cost less than a surface."

A Surface 2 (running Windows RT) costs $449 - I question the quality of a 'good' laptop and 'good' tablet you can get for less than $449...

A Surface Pro 3 starts at $749 - list price, less in qty. - that gets you close to 'good' laptops and tablets.

Re: Compromise combos don't work (1)

David Jao (2759) | yesterday | (#48376355)

The only problem is that Windows RT is doomed. Windows is far too dependent on x86 compatibility. If it can't run existing legacy Windows programs, then for most people there's no point. Without backward compatibility, you'll have to switch over to completely new software anyway, and by that point for the vast majority of people an iPad is a more attractive proposition.

Re:Compromise combos don't work (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | yesterday | (#48376029)

The surface is a perfect example of one of these compromise combos. It is a laptop, that is a tablet, that runs windows, that costs a pile of money. When I use my tablet I use it for tablet stuff like playing simple games, surfing the web for specific information, watching videos, but not for programming, writing books, or anything that it would do terribly. But my laptop literally has no games and I don't even watch many videos on it, it is purely for work when I am on the go.

And you've just described the perfect education device. A device suitable for single handed consumption which can effortlessly be converted into a full fledged content creation system in a flip of a keyboard. Mind you I still struggle to see how the Surface Pro 3 is a compromise. It well outdoes most full laptops, but I guess you're generally speaking out of hate for the form factor rather than putting critical thought into what applications such a device may be used.

My own story. I haven't touched my Android tablet since I got a Surface. I also never did that laptop upgrade I was planning. I seem to have a need for neither.

Another anecdote is the school where my wife teaches are about to dump iPads in favour of a convertible laptop (Not decided on a Surface or a Transformer or which specific device, but it will run Windows and it will be a full laptop / tablet convertible), and the private school across the road already did last year and went with Asus Transformers.

The iPad is a shit device for learning.

Re:Compromise combos don't work (1)

David Jao (2759) | yesterday | (#48376369)

The Surface Pro 3 requires compromising on price. It's much more expensive than any of the alternatives under discussion, especially if you want basic functionality such as a keyboard.

Re:Compromise combos don't work (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | yesterday | (#48376471)

Which isn't an issue for schools thanks in part to educational discounts. That's also why the Surface Pro 3 is a serious contender. Not to mention that only a few years ago students at many private schools were already being forced to use such tablets which at the time cost closer to double what the Surface Pro 3 does now.

You have to remember, price is no issue when someone else (parents and tax payers) are footing the bill.

Re:Compromise combos don't work (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | yesterday | (#48376475)

That and in Australia we don't need a $100k school shooting detection system.

Re:Compromise combos don't work (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | yesterday | (#48376341)

You are Bennet Haselton AICMFP.

Huzzah (1)

mrflash818 (226638) | yesterday | (#48375429)

This news is pleasing. I hope it is the start of many more such reports.

Who is ubmfuturecities? (1)

codepigeon (1202896) | yesterday | (#48375449)

I have never heard of this website before. I read the story and didn't see any links to data to support the authors observations about usage rates; just some anecdotal comments.

Having said that, my son's school uses Chromebooks to replace all text books and paper homework/assignments. I have to say I am very impressed. I like that all homework and assignments are available to the teacher at any time and the teacher can intervene if they detect the student is falling behind or doing poorly. I have some worries about Google probably mining and cataloging his work though.

I don't see the usefulness of an iPad in a classroom unless it comes with a keyboard and the infrastructure to support them (no clue about what apple provides for "cloud" services for schools). My company issues iPads with a Logitech keyboard to managers. In this case it seems more like an excuse for them to check their mail while they are supposed to be paying attention to the meeting.

Re:Who is ubmfuturecities? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48376381)

UBM Future Cities is a sister site of Information Week. United Business Media is a large publishing/conference house with names such as EE Times, Information Week and Light Reading.

I believe this was mostly wrote as an opinion piece, not to support actual numbers. There have been many articles around showing that Chromebooks are winning schools.

free market (1)

globaljustin (574257) | yesterday | (#48375469)

that's what happens when consumers are not locked into M$ products: they abandon them for better alternatives

M$ products are awful, and when they have to compete in the free market, they lose

how much of M$ profit is from US Federal and State level government contracts? that's your tax dollars

Re:free market (1)

koan (80826) | yesterday | (#48375701)

Not only that but when I tried to implement Linux solutions at a local community college I was met with rage from the support sector "I don't want to learn Linux" to where's the support (it was there and it was cheap so no one could grasp it apparently) to "We have to teach the students what they will be using".

OMG the fucking stupidity of the college system...

Windows is still around because of their market saturation, Apple is fucking atrocious, Linux has promise but really it's fractionalized.

For the record, the community college went with a $40,000 dollar Windows program for their video/photo presentations instead of Gallery 2 for free....
Not one of the "doctorates" on the decision panel could grasp that "free" could be better than $40,000.. and yet it was, Gallery 2 at the time offered far more features and the devs agreed to support it for next to nothing.

Fucking morons.

Re:free market (1)

globaljustin (574257) | yesterday | (#48375749)

Linux isn't a total solution for education/academia but it's definitely in the mix all over the place

at my last university, all the computer labs were iMacs that could boot into windows or the reverse...keyboard and mouse were standard on all...it really was just preference

it also depends on where you tried to implement Linux...for graphic design as much as i hate it they have to use Adobe CS which doesn't reliably run on Linux...obviously GIMP should be part of the cirriculum, but you can't go in there with janky Ubuntu ACS installs and expect them to say yes

Re:free market (1)

brantondaveperson (1023687) | yesterday | (#48376353)

"We have to teach the students what they will be using".

How is this stupid? Seems pretty sensible to me, Linux vs. Window notwithstanding.

Apple is fucking atrocious

In what way?

Not surprising (1)

Hamsterdan (815291) | yesterday | (#48375497)

My school had Apple ][ computers (don't remember if they were 2e or 2+), school manager had a 3.

Guess what I learned programming on? (that and my C64)

Re:Not surprising (1)

Noah Haders (3621429) | yesterday | (#48375619)

i give up what

Re:Not surprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375803)

i give up what

He learned on your mom.
By the time he was done he had made her interface GUI.

Google could win Education (1)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375527)

But first they need to figure out 3 things:

1) Resolve the Android/Chromebook schizophrenia with a unified platform. It looks like they're going down a path where the Chromebook os distribution model will be used for the hardware while Android will supply the apps.
2) Licensing model that for app and content distribution viably for all levels of EDU. This is currently harder the bigger your org gets when you need to be able to use POs instead of credit cards and need multiple IDs/devices to be able to access the content
3) Hypervisor / broker that allows their platform to seamlessly remote/VDI onto Windows/OS X/Linux big iron for desktop environment as required. If they give this piece away, I think they eventually succeed in the other OS vendors entirely.

Without business support and OEMs they are dead (1)

Hamsterdan (815291) | yesterday | (#48375533)

I guess OEMs are keeping them alive as big companies are switching to alternatives

Budget cuts (1)

rsilvergun (571051) | yesterday | (#48375579)

mean there isn't near as much money in education as their used to be. Might not be enough to support Microsoft's desired profit margins. Besides, the kids are probably still using Office 365 anyway, so it's all good.

Lose? Did it have it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48375591)

Or is this just more MS asserting that it owns a space 'because'?

Laugh (1)

koan (80826) | yesterday | (#48375621)

iPads are a the preferred platform for schools deploying tablets as digital learning devices.

Having worked in their EDU department there's a reason for this, and it isn't because they are better.

Oh and for you Apple fanbois... fuck you.

Re:Laugh (1)

brantondaveperson (1023687) | yesterday | (#48376359)

Enlighten us. What is the reason?

Re:Laugh (0)

Anonymous Coward | yesterday | (#48376465)

iPads are a the preferred platform for schools deploying tablets as digital learning devices.

Having worked in their EDU department there's a reason for this, and it isn't because they are better.

Enlighten us. What is the reason?

Promotion of homosexuality

As a technology director for a K-12 district (4, Insightful)

Pollux (102520) | yesterday | (#48375637)

I'll weigh in on two different thoughts.

First thought: iPads vs. Chromebooks vs. Microsoft. At a recent technology director's conference, there's nothing but moaning & groaning about managing iPads. It's four year's running now, and Apple just does not get Enterprise management. No central management of Apple IDs, App management is terrible (Apple Configurator is lousy, buggy, and doesn't push apps, and 3rd party management tools keep breaking w/ every new version of iOS), the list keeps going on. And there's nothing but good things being said about Chromebooks. Affordable, simple, easy enterprise management, no more need for file servers...the only criticism is that they eat bandwidth. And Microsoft? Yesterday's news.

Second thought: regarding the criticisms about 1-1 and flooding schools with digital devices. I in much part agree that there's not a direct -need- for student digital devices. But digital devices do enhance learning by providing greater opportunities to communicate, manage classroom content digitally and make it accessible outside school, create video lessons and "flip" the classroom [wikipedia.org] , and provide formative assessments [wikipedia.org] (i.e. frequent quizzing that is used to guide instruction & provide mnemonic enhancement) that have been proven to be a very effective learning tool [nctm.org] . But these are all -instructional- changes that need to start and continue with the teacher. It's foolish for a district to follow a blind "build-it-and-they-will-come" strategy of flooding a school with digital devices and utterly failing at supporting instructional changes. If districts aren't willing to provide both continual funding for a 1-1 program as well as instructional support to teachers, then they're wasting their money. But we all need to recognize that schools are responsible for teaching students how to effectively use the internet in the pursuit of knowledge. The internet is the new information paradigm of our society, making it a necessary part of the curriculum.

Google taking Apple's playbook (1)

Technician (215283) | yesterday | (#48375773)

Early in the PC vs Apple days, Apple was heavy into the education market as the theory went as kids lift school they would continue to use what they learned in school.

Apple faced the reality of aftermarket gray box PC's running DOS, then Windows at a lower price embraced by business. Microsoft rode in on commodity hardware.

Now Windows and the support structure is high priced and Google is doing the Apple playbook getting into schools with an easy to use, secure platform, but with a price advantage. This could go somewhere. There is not much cheap platform hardware that can out perform the inexpensive hardware and software.

The only Achilles heel is the underpowered nature, but with proper growth, that could soon end. Chrome is not an enterprise platform, yet.

Right tool for right job (1)

iamacat (583406) | yesterday | (#48375875)

Thin client with a keyboard is perfect for K-12 education. As students join, leave, or spill coke on their laptops, you can just redistribute $200 clients and replaces damaged ones without draining your finances. Schools can not afford highly skilled administrators that would keep data backed up and secure enough to match cloud storage run by company that specializes in this kind of thing.

Microsoft could have joined this market and been fairly successful at it. I played with POSReady 2009 in a VM recently. It's pretty much ChromeOS with Win32/.Net API and ability to run Office and DirectX software locally would be nice. Not sure if it can be configured to be as tightly integrated with Azure as Chromebook is with Google cloud services, but Microsoft certainly has smart people to make it happen.

Instead, they have for long time chosen to focus on expensive Surface hardware that doesn't quite commit to being either a great tablet OS or a great desktop OS. New CEO has done a lot of interesting moves, like making Office free for mobile devices and iOS/Android development support in Visual Studio. Perhaps they will succeed in education in time.

Better alternatives? (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | yesterday | (#48376063)

My only anecdotes actually are the exact opposite of the article. My own experience aside my wife taught at 2 schools in the past 2 years, one which dropped iPads form all students in favour of Asus Transformers, and the other which currently uses iPads and have approached Microsoft (not been approached by) for an RFP.

At the former school on the Asus tablets everything worked. Students were able to watch all content provided to them, run all applications, take notes, print, etc and pretty much do anything with ease. Across the road at the other private school where she is now seems to be a daily lesson in frustration. iPads not playing content correctly, really basic math software without the ability to save, export, share, print etc. The main word processor is unable to cope with mathematics (greek letters, among the myriad of other characters not typable on the Apple keyboard), and this is exactly what should be the tablet's forte. Then there's the usability issues such as printing support, and the facepalmingly stupid problem that the students have a never ending stream of support calls to IT because they are unable to upload assignments up to Blackboard from their iPad (not sure this is the iPad's fault but it worked fine on the Transformers).

The iPad is a great content absorption device when it works, but school is so much more than that. Currently they are looking at rolling out Surface Pro 3s but it's early yet. They may end up with another convertible of some description and may even fall back to standard laptops.

The only thing truly certain is it won't be iPads.

Re:Better alternatives? (1)

ruir (2709173) | yesterday | (#48376183)

People are rolling out Surfaces because Microsoft dumps them almost for free, but they could well be rolling steaming turds that we would not notice the difference, and would not touch them as well. Yes, mod me down at will.

Re:Better alternatives? (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | yesterday | (#48376489)

Actually it's a $1000 cost that would get past on to the parents. Only the teachers will be issued them for free, and they will be paid for by the school.

Yes it's a discount since it includes the keyboard but that doesn't make your rant even remotely relevant.

Re:Better alternatives? (1)

ruir (2709173) | yesterday | (#48376547)

What other people say are relevant dimwit. Saying that ne time is enough, two is you being a dick. You can be people not caring about their free stuff and taking their PAID Apple products to work/Office/classrooms is very RELEVANT and telling.

Re:Better alternatives? (1)

ruir (2709173) | yesterday | (#48376549)

not proofreading... What other people say are relevant dimwit. Saying that ONE time is enough, two is you being a dick. You can BET people not caring about their free stuff and taking their PAID Apple products to work/Office/classrooms is very RELEVANT and telling.

Re:Better alternatives? (1)

ruir (2709173) | yesterday | (#48376189)

Professors here and students are showing up here with iPads and MacBook Pros, and amazing, their prefer to pay them out of their own pockets than using the Uni standard Windows boxen - more fantastic yet, the % of this devices is enormous, we track them on our network statistics. I mean huge. Big firms like Cisco are giving people the choice between crapastic Windows notebooks and MacbookPros, and guess what they choose. People also hate windows mobile, and the ones that have one company issued, take it just for a show/brick, and use their own iphone. Even the anchors on cnn that is paid for product placement of surface, hate it, and use it as a holder for their iPads. This is what happens when you fuck with your customers. And Btw, I love my iPhone 6 and my Macbook Pro. I prefer to pay them using the lame alternatives.

Re:Better alternatives? (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | yesterday | (#48376511)

MacBook Pros are a different league altogether and would be an ideal device if it could be afforded. This wasn't an anti-apple point I was making, it was an anti-mobile/tablet OS point. Your point about product placement is not relevant. CNN anchors don't have a need for any kind of computing power in their jobs, likewise the football coaches. They use function specific apps in primarily a consumption mode.

This is quite a bit different from a school scenario which requires consumption AND creation. I used a tablet a lot at Uni as well. They were just coming out when I went through and I would have been an early adopter statistic for you to track, and if you tracked things to great detail you would have also noted that it my use was limited to checking timetables, browsing the web, and downloading PDFs for the course. It absolutely sucked for writing or creating anything, and may laptop absolutely sucked for quickly checking anything. I would happily have used a convertible tablet device. I only saw one at my school because at the time they had a $3k pricetag and a crap build quality and having the spare cash I would have upgraded my Macbook instead.

Nowadays? Like right now, I would buy a Surface Pro 3. In a few months? Maybe not, maybe some other transformable tablet. But sitting around and consuming content all day is not my usage requirements.

Re:Better alternatives? (1)

ruir (2709173) | yesterday | (#48376543)

If you say so. I shelled out money for Omnigrafle plus on my iPad, doing "visio" grapfs are a requirement on my job, and it is so much better to use it on an ipad. I also have some other software. For meetings, I prefer to carry my iPad to see and fiddle with my spreadsheets. I also create presentations with keynote in my iPad. For movies, I prefer to stream them with iPad or the iPhone. Ditto for watching movies out of hours. talking about content creation, I am a developer for the iOS plataform. you also have got spreadsheets programs, numbers for instance, and keynote, and some other programs. The interface is best for some things, not so much for others. If you do not want to work and spend all day on facebook, there is not much difference in having an iPad or a notebook. And please do not say something I said is not relevant. The point is everyone and their dogs hate surface and windows mobile, and prefer even to pay when they are issued free by the company. I was in that boat too, bringing my own Apple equipment to work, until the higher ups saw I was more efficient with them, and issue Apple stuff to all my team. About Surface? I would not even want it for free, and mind you, I am not alone on that. MS products suck. They are blowing products left and down. Their marketing and technical teams are at odds with what their customers want. I personally also hate them with a passion, I dont even want frigging Office in my Mac. Last time I had a Windows product I trowed it out of the Windows of my car in a sheer frustration rage out of it not working, and obliging me to run Windows emulations programs in my Mac to use it...no, but no thanks. Never again.

Not really... (3, Interesting)

Retron (577778) | yesterday | (#48376225)

I work in a school. We've been through the whole "every pupil gets a computer" phase and it was a disaster - we used eeepcs running Xandros and initially there were complaints about how crummy the programs were. (IE people expected Office, but they got OpenOffice instead).

Then after a few days the breakages started - minibooks left in bags, being dropped, screens smashed, drinks spilt on them etc. So that meant that teachers couldn't rely on everyone having one any more and the whole point of them was lost. They stopped being used and we ended up getting about 30% of them back after the year was out, the rest were damaged or lost. It was an absolute waste of money and it still goes on with other schools today (those who are foolish enough to give tablets to all their pupils, anyway!)

We still use desktop PCs running Windows and Office, as it's what the real world uses (for now, at least). We provide access via UAG to our network for staff and pupils to access their documents remotely.

Google Docs, OneDrive etc are blocked for pupils. Chromebooks are pointless from our point of view due to Google Docs being blocked and lack of intergration into a Windows domain. They also don't run the programs which pupils use in school (which include some digital textbooks, additional educational needs programs, maths programs, Photoshop etc). iPads are beyond useless for our needs, as it's a faff to create spreadsheets or word process on them. Yes, it can be done, but a real keyboard and a decent PC make it much more pleasant.

So, like most schools around this part of the UK, we have several IT rooms with desktops. We have a media suite running Premiere (having phased out Macs a few years ago), a music suite running Cubase and a DT suite running SolidWorks. We have a couple of hundred staff laptops and a couple of hundred curriculum laptops, safely locked away at night.

We are looking at at BYOD implementation, but the powers that be aren't overly keen to have teenagers running around with expensive laptops, tablets etc. And there's the whole network file access issue, we can't add the machines to the domain so they'd have to go through the somewhat clunky UAG system to access their files. There's also the line of who has responsibility to ensure the machines accessing our network are patched and up-to-date, as we don't have the resources to look after people's personal equipment.

All in all, there won't be much change in the school where I work for the foreseeable future: Office and Windows look like remaining the main platform for a while yet. It's the same in the other schools in the area, Chromebooks and the like are simply not useful to the way that schools work around here.

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