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A Strategic Comparison of Windows Vs. Unix

Hemos posted about 13 years ago | from the which-when-better-who dept.

Unix 792

Ramsed writes "On LinuxWorld Paul Murphy wrote an article comparing Unix and Windows for a 500-student system and a 5,000-user manufacturing company. Summary: Most of the Windows versus Unix debate has been cast in terms of which is technically better or which is cheaper, but the real question is, 'Under what circumstances is it smarter to pick one technology rather than the other?'"

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fp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475064)

this blather added to escape lameness filtering.

slow down, cowboy!

Fuck. (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | about 13 years ago | (#2475073)

That FP woulda been mine if i wasn't here:

http://www.brittneycleary.com/imme.html

Shoulda looked for it up yer hairy ass (-1)

Mike Hock (249988) | about 13 years ago | (#2475139)

You are welcome!!!

Really , you are!!

biatch!!!

Re:Fuck. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475222)

That site violates numerous AOL Time Warner copyrights and trademarks. They should sue that little shit.

Re:fp (0, Offtopic)

KingAzzy (320268) | about 13 years ago | (#2475234)

happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy KENNETH BRANAUGH IS A HOT SEXXXXX GOD happy happy joy joy joy JOY JOY JOY jump jump skip hop with glee because i'm happy HAPPY i've just smoked an ounce of weed and snorted ten lines of coke happy HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY DAMMIT DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL IM HAPPY happy happy JOY JOY JOY JOY happy happy happy

** ATTENTION TROLLS!!! **

FAGGOT CMDR RALPH TACO FUCKWAD MALDA AND HIS GAY COMRADE MICHAEL WANT TO RAPE YOU OF YOUR RIGHTS!!

WHAT WILL YOU DO TO DEFEND YOURSELVES?????

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Re:fp (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | about 13 years ago | (#2475256)

What the fuck was that you stupid cunt?

Well, we made a decision, we want The Kramer.

fp again? (-1)

Bilton (517325) | about 13 years ago | (#2475067)

duh.

fuck! (-1)

Bilton (517325) | about 13 years ago | (#2475098)

oh well, it's bloody close enough...
assholes.

Re:fuck! (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | about 13 years ago | (#2475126)

Understood agression, Bilton.

Let's meet at the same time
Same place
Send your jpeg, I wanna see your face
Girlfriend, send an I.M.

TTYL
No time to spell
Oops, there goes that little bell
Bye, bye for now
BBFN

CHORUS: Hey, LOL, G2G
I gotta go, but watch for me 'cause
I'll be right back, BRB
So sign on, and I.M. me

Mom thinks I'm doing homework
Yeah, research
But I can't help it, I've just got to surf
I gotta chat with my girlfriends on line

We're digital divas
Believe us
This Girl Wide Web is hot stuff
My buddy list is growing all the time

CHORUS

I got a web page
A domain
Sign my guest book with your screen name
Check it out, then send an I.M.

What's your profile?
Favorite quote?
This is just like passing notes
It's easier to type than use a pen

CHORUS 3 times

Re:fuck! (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | about 13 years ago | (#2475142)

Aggression, even.

3/20/01 Dear Dairy: First day of spring!!! Finally! This weekend was a blast. My family and I went to New York City for a sleepover with Doreen (my publicist) and girls from her dance studio. We had so much fun, dancing, singing to karaoke songs and hanging out. I had to do some on-air radio interviews this week, that was fun! And this week I'm having a photo shoot for Teen Beauty Handbook. I hope they give me free makeup! LOL I'll have a makeup party with my girlfriends!! Well, goota go; my mom's yellin'
Love always~ Brittney Rose

It did happen, go figure (-1)

Mike Hock (249988) | about 13 years ago | (#2475068)

This could never happen... but it did

WTF?

2nd post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475071)

Stop giving a shit about slashcrap and go look at some pr0n instead [phatmax.net]

cheeky monkeys!!!

FREE MUMIA

Re:2nd post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475158)

OK, so how do I get my free Mumia?

Comparasion? (1)

zerofunk (317249) | about 13 years ago | (#2475082)

Umm... someone needs to check the spelling on the title.

Incorrect spelling? Wha? (1, Funny)

Anonymous DWord (466154) | about 13 years ago | (#2475091)

You're new here, aren't you? ;-)

Re:Incorrect spelling? Wha? (1)

zerofunk (317249) | about 13 years ago | (#2475111)

Heh, nah. :) Seems really bad that it's in the title of the post though and it's pretty screwed up.

Re:Comparasion? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475114)

They used a unix spell checker, clearly

Unix (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | about 13 years ago | (#2475090)

Everybody knows that, eh?

smarter seldom seems to be a decision criteria... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475096)

If that were the case, then technologies like 100VG or Token Ring would be around today. Beta would have beat VHS. The examples are plenty.

What IT and others make decisions on are "where is the limiting factor". Things like personnel and technical training availability. Things like comfort level and other "nontangible" items.

It all boils down to this. Sad but true.

I'm a almost a troll (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475099)

Umm, shouldn't the question be
"When do you choose OS X compared with Linux or a different Unix strain?"
XP is a player only because people make Microsoft a player - it really doesn't offer anything significant that won't eventually bite you in the ass (e.g. Passport, subscription based licensing).

Re:I'm a almost a troll (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475183)

Congratulations, sir, on posting the most insightful comment on Slashdot, ever.

Condition? How Smart Do You Think Your People Are? (2)

d.valued (150022) | about 13 years ago | (#2475101)

The terse answer to this is simple: Windows is easy to learn and hard to use, while *nix is hard to learn but easy to use.

Windows also suffers from this debilitating illness known as the 'Blue Screen of Death', which provides employees with instant five minute coffee breaks at the cost of whatever files the employee or student was working on. (At least when my power spikes, I know Emacs has an annoying tilde file with most of my data in it ;)

Fuck you fanboy (-1)

Mike Hock (249988) | about 13 years ago | (#2475120)

You and your sweaty scrotum sucking family suck Bill Gates' ass

ASSSHOLE

Re:Condition? How Smart Do You Think Your People A (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475125)

What's so hard to use about Windows? Really.

BSOD, constantly. Yeah, right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475146)

When's the last time you used a Windows system? I don't think I've had 2K crash - ever - in over a year of using it. Oh, but you're still comparing to 95, right?

Re:BSOD, constantly. Yeah, right. (1)

gooberguy (453295) | about 13 years ago | (#2475280)

Did you even READ the article? According to it, the average uptime of over 1500 Windows 2000 boxes are only 200 hours. Win2k doesn't give the BSOD, it just locks up. I couldn't even get it to install on one of my computers.

One of my linux boxes had an uptime of 480 days until the uptime value overflowed and went back to 0.

D/\ Gooberguy

Re:BSOD, constantly. Yeah, right. (2)

HunterD (13063) | about 13 years ago | (#2475282)

I've personally had 3 BOSD style crashes with W2k - as well as the system needing to be rebooted multiple times because it has become unusable.

It IS better the NT or 95/98/ME, but it still has nothing on UNIX/Linux

Soo... (1)

2nd Post! (213333) | about 13 years ago | (#2475171)

Where does this leave the newly birthed Mac OS X?

Ease of use (1)

Shoeboy (16224) | about 13 years ago | (#2475187)

Windows is easy to learn and hard to use, while *nix is hard to learn but easy to use.

I keep hearing this, but I haven't heard any supporting arguements. Can you point me to comparitive time trials for Un*x vs. Windows at performing common tasks? By common tasks I mean directory traversal, document creation and editing, searching and the like.

Usability is a topic that interests me a great deal, so I'd love to see some hard figures here.

Thanks,
--Shoeboy

Re:Ease of use (1)

d.valued (150022) | about 13 years ago | (#2475227)

Let's put it this way...

Put a user in front of a Wintel box. Chances are, they could putz around, figure out how to use the mousey-pointy-thing, and get the idea of clicking around to do simple, uninteresting tasks. If they want to do something fancy, like find a file, they can't do it. They'll ask a person in tech support (like you, most likely) to tell them how to do that, and they'll come to you with issues of the utmost idiocy that you, as a *nixer, would be able to do in less than twenty keystrokes from a commmand line.

Re:Ease of use (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475255)

Oh, so you don't have any proof.

Huh.

Re:Ease of use (1)

Apotsy (84148) | about 13 years ago | (#2475266)

Wow. He asked for hard data, and you responded by comparing a (theoretical) inexperienced windows user with a (theoretical) experienced unix user. What a great response that was.

Re:Ease of use (1)

Shoeboy (16224) | about 13 years ago | (#2475268)

If they want to do something fancy, like find a file, they can't do it.

Start->FSearch->For files or folders (Windows 2000)
Defaults to searching all local hard drives and is quite simple. If you don't like the gui, there's always "Dir /S" for filename searches and "FindStr /S" for content searching. I fail to see how find and grep or an X windows file manager are any easier to use. A bit more powerful in certain cases I'll grant, but how often does the average user need to use a recursive grep? Enough to justify the time required to learn how to do it? I doubt this somewhat although I'm willing to accept proof to the contrary.

--Shoeboy

Re:Ease of use (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475285)

I keep hearing this, but I haven't heard any supporting arguements.

That's because it's another one of those ridiculous liberal myths.

You forgot... your mom == easy to use (-1)

Mike Hock (249988) | about 13 years ago | (#2475188)

$2 and shes yours for the night!!

Biatch

But the bitch is hard to please (-1)

Mike Hock (249988) | about 13 years ago | (#2475201)

It takes a boatload of marines to satisfy that fat whore!

She takes gallons and kees on swallowing

She is a jizz sponge!!

Hey d.valued... who's your daddy? (-1)

Mike Hock (249988) | about 13 years ago | (#2475223)

I bet your skank whore mother of yours doesn't even know who it is...

She just knows what branch of the armed services she was plowing through the year your sorry ass was conceived

Your daddy is a sailor.... happy now ... bastard

You will thank me later!!!

Re:You forgot... your mom == easy to use (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475215)

Oh, sure, no one has a problem with THAT, but when it comes to Microsoft leasing their software, then everyone has such issues! I just see them both as services...

Re:Condition? How Smart Do You Think Your People A (4, Insightful)

orange_6 (320700) | about 13 years ago | (#2475196)

Having working in a campus environment for a good part of the last 4 years I can say that not everyone wants to learn something new, let alone spend the time to familiarize themselves with software packages they are unfamiliar with. Only students of Comp. Sci/Comp. Eng. are for the most part willing to do this, and even some of them are not.

While the article states that there would be the need for only a single *nix support position, and four Windows support positions, we must think of this: How many additional postitions would have to be created to train students (even rudimentary training) for an infrastructure they are not accustomed to? I would guess at least 10, but depending on the size of said campus, it could grow to an exorbant amount, overshadowing the cost of the initial startup costs.

The campus I am at now is a great example (Northern Illinois) and especially the labs I work in (art/music). There are plenty of Mac's here for people to use, but unless they are die-hard Mac-heads or it is required to use them for a class, 99% of the students stay away from them for the sole reason that it is unfamiliar territory. This made the campus cut down to a single Mac support position for the entire campus (which has over 200 macs), solely because of peoples inability to accept things that are different.

Look at the makeup of the world's computer market, 90+% Windows. People fear change and are afraid to learn. Even in academia.

Later
Josh

At least bash Windows for the right reasons (4, Informative)

CaptainSuperBoy (17170) | about 13 years ago | (#2475220)

There are many reasons to dislike Windows. Reliability, however, is not one of them. My desktop running Windows XP hasn't crashed yet due to software. Individual programs crash, sure, but the OS is rock solid. My laptop running Win2k has gone for up to a week without rebooting - that's going between multiple network environments, hardware configurations, and going in and out of suspend and hibernate.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of reasons to bash Windows such as lackluster security (although a patched system can be as secure as a patched GNU/Linux installation).

Working with end users, I find that Windows is both hard to learn AND hard to use. Nobody's figured out how to make a truly intuitive interface yet, including Linux and Windows. Users don't get or accept the concept that there are multiple ways of doing things - they get locked into the first technique they learn, such as going to the file menu and clicking exit rather than hitting the big x. They are STILL afraid of breaking things, which is unfortunately still a valid fear.

SPELLCHECK my ass (-1)

Mike Hock (249988) | about 13 years ago | (#2475105)

Your mooma smells fishy motherfucker

Why do you assholes keep forming new threads? (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | about 13 years ago | (#2475107)

Save the environment.

Let's meet at the same time
Same place
Send your jpeg, I wanna see your face
Girlfriend, send an I.M.

TTYL
No time to spell
Oops, there goes that little bell
Bye, bye for now
BBFN

CHORUS: Hey, LOL, G2G
I gotta go, but watch for me 'cause
I'll be right back, BRB
So sign on, and I.M. me

Mom thinks I'm doing homework
Yeah, research
But I can't help it, I've just got to surf
I gotta chat with my girlfriends on line

We're digital divas
Believe us
This Girl Wide Web is hot stuff
My buddy list is growing all the time

CHORUS

I got a web page
A domain
Sign my guest book with your screen name
Check it out, then send an I.M.

What's your profile?
Favorite quote?
This is just like passing notes
It's easier to type than use a pen

CHORUS 3 times

WTF? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475152)

-1 crap really is crap these days!

Boy, companies love to waste money... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475108)

Oh please, I'm starting my own company, and I am looking for any other proprietary software packages that I can waste my money and time on besides Windows and Office. Any suggestions????? I know *nix is clearly a zillion, nay, a gazillion times better in every way shape and form, but I really have money to burn.

This really is just a conspiracy to get you *nix geeks employed as MIS managers, isn't it? ;)

Thought Experiment? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475109)

Wow, speculative argument, how interesting. Are there not case studies available? Am I supposed to implement one of these "toy problems" to provide such evidence.

ATTENTION!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475110)

Not less than 10 minutes ago I gave another guy head. It was the first time, and I have to say, it wasn't that bad.
Most of the cum hit the back of the throat, so I didn't taste it too much. The anal hurt big time though.

(Score:4, Taboo)

Re:ATTENTION!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475170)

good deal
i would have liked to have been there to fuck your ass after him...he went to fast if it hurt that bad

I Have Mirrored The Page To Be Safe (2)

ekrout (139379) | about 13 years ago | (#2475117)

I Have Mirrored The Page To Be Safe in case of server overload --
http://erickrout.com/comparison.html [erickrout.com]

Numbers calculated using Sun hardware and Solaris (1)

guru_steve (205501) | about 13 years ago | (#2475123)

just FYI, for those who actally read the article; the comparison is between a combination of win2k/xp (work/home) and solaris/caldera (work/home). Interesting that they calculated prices based on an implementation of Solaris at work, as opposed to Linux.

One other consideration (1)

schmim (412965) | about 13 years ago | (#2475124)

For the large corporation ... and especially one that may continue to expand its network, etc .. There is one other business consideration.
UNIX admins are much fewer and further between than an NT admin.. They're more expensive and harder to replace.
When you use NT, chances are that if a sysadmin leaves its not a huge feat to bring in a replacement who can jump right into it.

Re:One other consideration (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475199)

YEAH..but you need fifteen support personnel for every admin(supposedly):from my experience at a
HS, it is possible to support a network of 200+
windows machines with 4 to 5 people when there is serious trouble. A single admin with a tech
can run the network most of the time depending on HW issues, upgrades, server resources, and
know-how.

there's a reason why NT admins are easy to find... (2)

poopie (35416) | about 13 years ago | (#2475245)

'cause most of them suck.

To be objective, the difference is experience. An NT admin might be a 'reboot monkey'. An NT admin might be someone who clicks OK after putting the CD in the drive. An NT admin might be someone who upgrades users applications one machine at a time.

I realize there are NT admins who are developers, write code, manage hundreds of systems via sms, etc. But, that's not your average NT admin.

Now a unix admin... anything more than a junior unix admin almost by definition requires scripting or programming experience.

You get what you pay for. I'll take one Senior unix sysadmin over 3 junior NT admins any day of the week. Do the math.

If my school used UNIX/Linux (1)

Vardamir (266484) | about 13 years ago | (#2475128)

If my schoold used Unix/Linux or even OS X we wouldn't be able to get full access rights as easily as in windows 9x, mainly because the windows 9x kernel rocks!!! .. oh wait

Stacked deck.... (2)

cmowire (254489) | about 13 years ago | (#2475129)

The deck is stacked against windows.

It's a large-scale Sun or the like server with "Smart Terminals" a.k.a. Dick..err.. diskless workstations a.k.a. X-terminals vs. a PC network.

I would like to see a comparison in there that also includes Linux workstations and either Unix or Linux servers.

Re:Stacked deck.... (1)

schmim (412965) | about 13 years ago | (#2475141)

I do agree with you .. If they were going to use dumb terminals, they should have used wyse winterms in the windows example. Even with all the lisencing hell you'd have to go through and pay for, it would have been much cheaper and easier to maintain than an all-pc network.
Just as a sidebar, it still would have been more expensive than the UNIX net they proposed.

Imran

Re:Stacked deck.... (2)

styopa (58097) | about 13 years ago | (#2475240)

True, they used diskless workstations, SunRays to be exact. Some say they are just glorified x-terms, but having used one I would say that they are much more than that. First they have a smart card port, ergo the school or workplace can switch their id cards to smart cards, thereby creating an easier way to logon to the systems. In the case of a school, where computer labs are for everyones use, it allows for customization of desktop and software. A large Sun server is a lot more reliable than Windows boxes, and replacing a broken SunRay is cheaper than replacing a broken/out-of-date PC. Although the PC may be faster, Sun servers, and therefore the SunRays, aren't exactly slow, and they need replacing less often as the article mentioned.

Basically, what I am getting to is that it is perfectly legit to compair PCs vs SunRays in this situation. It is the way Sun is trying to get businesses to move. Cheaper, more reliable, more secure, and the performance hit is not significant for what most people do.

Best tool for the best job (2)

Whyte Wolf (149388) | about 13 years ago | (#2475130)

Its a maxim I teach my web development students every day. I run a windows/linux/mac environment on my home network, and run Apache/Tomcat/PWS on one of my windows boxes and use my Linux/Apache/Samba server as a live web server while windows is for development. My Mac I use for design and Photoshop work. I love Linux and OSS, but I'll still choose the best tool for the job--which is why I look at all the tools I use with a critical eye. Having the source avaiable and free (in both senses of the word) makes a tool valuable to me, but if it still isn't best-in-breed for what I need, I'll spend money on it.

Dreamweaver UltraDev 4 w/ Homesite vs Frontpage 2000 -- there's no comparison.

For a server, Linux always. For a web programming environment, sometimes I'll choose Windows, sometimes Linux--depends on the client's needs. For design, it'll always be a Mac.

Best tool for the situation I say.

Re:Best tool for the best job (1)

Meech (166762) | about 13 years ago | (#2475269)

This is the case most of the time. The other situations are: (i) what must be used, and (ii) what is cheapest at the time.

For example, the furniture company that I work for uses a software package for their inventory that will only work with windows. Therefore they have oriented their desktops and some server around the Microsoft design.

On the other hand, for some of the "behind the scenes" network stuff, like Intra/Internet, DNS, DHCP, email we have Linux. The only reason that we are using Linux is the cost. It is A LOT cheaper for all of thoses things that I just mentioned to be done on Linux rather than NT( not to mention a shitload better/easier). It was a hard sell to the mangement. They had the idea that Microsoft is the most expensive and therefore best company (quote stolen from the Simpons!).

letdown... (2)

David E. Smith (4570) | about 13 years ago | (#2475134)

The summary posted here promises more than the article delivers. Though making some vague gestures towards the end, the bulk of the article just focuses on money. For that, of course, Linux wins hands-down. Nice tables, though.

Re:letdown... (1)

Diomedes01 (173241) | about 13 years ago | (#2475148)

Hmm... apparently you didn't read the article that carefully, since Linux is only mentioned for Student home PCs in the University example... they were using Solaris as the Unix OS.

Good Article but a question or 2 (4, Informative)

q-soe (466472) | about 13 years ago | (#2475136)

I think this article has some excellent points but i do question a couple of things about the figures - i disagree with the assertion that The windows support job is full time and the Unix is not - thats a wishfull thinking idea - If you are smar about this you run a Standard Environment on a RIS build for all the workstations and your support costs crash to the floor on windows - i would know that in a system of this type 4 staff will be busy but adequate.

I also agree that the UNIX servers will likely be more robust but i think its optomistic to state that the suport on desktops will be lower - the fact is theres not a lot of pre existing information to support this.

I think they are actually about the same in support costs and that works the costs out the same - having said that i can see a lot of advantages to the UNIX solution with open source giving access to a much wider range of tools at a lower cost - i would point out that MS dont force you to move up and i would also point out that on 500 machines the license costs and upgrade coss are lower as you would choose a volume licensing or select agreement basis (you would NEVER pay retail prices)

Good article but and well worth a read - i do have a slight question on bias - that is if a writer who supports open source working on an open source publicatiopn would ever make a reccomendation for closed source - i personally think that the Lonux desktop is closer than it was and almost there - and i also think everyone should have a choice in what they use-stuff like this can be a good start in helping people choose.

Re:Good Article but a question or 2 (1)

malfunct (120790) | about 13 years ago | (#2475226)

I wish I had links to the article source, but last I heard large companies that changed from windows to linux had support costs rise. I'm not saying anything on the down side for linux, but people just don't know how to use it, and if something goes wrong they are often clueless on how to fix it. With windows it may break alot but there are also a lot more people that know how to reboot the machine... I mean fix the problem.

The Way IT Works (2)

piecewise (169377) | about 13 years ago | (#2475140)

What we *really* need is a study of how many overpaid IT managers there are in existance, and study how much money you could save if you used people of logic and intelligence instead.

For example:

At a not-to-be-named newspaper in the northeast (where I may or may not work ;) -- IT managers work with the budget guys to buy 1.5x more than they need. Why? Because they know that if they don't, managers will say the following year (when perhaps something new really IS needed) -- "Well, you didn't need that last year, so we won't put it in the budget."

The rest of the excise equipment is "borrowed" for months by employees. Titanium PowerBooks are the most frequent to go (though i can't blame anyone for that ;)

Another IT example, this one bearing solely on the responsibility of the IT staff.

An IT manager at a sorta-major company grew up around Windows, and is very anti-Mac. So, when IT was given the power to decide what computers to buy this year, he went after Windows PCs.... for a graphics/web content company. The result? Employees who refuse to use the Windows systems, and instead use year-old Mac systems instead. When the employees wanted OS X installed, IT went ballistic because they'd "spent so much money" on new Windows and had planned to adopt XP early over a period of time.

You'd be surprised how easily and often this stuff happens. I'm not saying it's common, but I've heard so many stories -- of which those two I am personally related, unfortunately.

So, Windows or Unix?

How about whichever you want -- but do it efficiently and effectively. If Unix continues to receive support (esp. if Mac OS X continues to receive support -- and OS X Server), Windows and OS X will be very very similar feature-wise. And price-wise, too I'm sure (don't give the "Macs are 2x more expensive!"-routine. My $1299 iBook beats the heck out of a $1600 Dell laptop.. that is ugly, too).

Inevitably, it may very well to cleaning out some management and saving money that way. EFFICIENT Corporate America.

nahhhhh... ;-)

Re:The Way IT Works (1)

Cheetahfeathers (93473) | about 13 years ago | (#2475262)

Ok, but how does your $1300 dollar iBook compare to a $1000 IBM ThinkPad? And you get a much better pointer too! ;)

I still want an OS X box. If only IBM would port their laptops to the Mac hardware! Makes about as much sense as asking Apple to port their OS to x86, right?

Re:The Way IT Works (1)

malfunct (120790) | about 13 years ago | (#2475277)

About your first complaint. This is NOT a function of bad IT managers but rather a symptom of bueracracy and budgets in general. A budget has to be formed before a year starts, when you have no info about what will happen that year, so you look at last year to see the result. Because you are always trying to trim the budget, if you are the unlucky group that managers don't really understand why they need (IT anybody?), they take your last years budget with normal budget inflation added and then cut 10% from the final number. So knowing this you make sure to spend at least 50% more than you need this year so that next year your budget will be big enough. It sucks but don't blame the manager for the problem, blame his manager instead.

As far as your next problem, the fault likes both with the manager and with the people in the department. If the IT manager has a good reason to buy a windows box vs the mac boxes that everyone is used to, then by all means he should get them and the people in the dept should use them. However in the case you specified the IT manager forgot to calculate all the issues. Retraining a boatload of editors and writers and layout specialists is much harder than him learning a few things about mac computers. In that case he is guilty of massive short-sightedness and major power tripping.

And the article is at LinuxWorld... (1)

ergo98 (9391) | about 13 years ago | (#2475147)

Boy, you know this'll be objective.... In any case I run neither a 500 student system, or a 5,000 user manufacturing company, so neither scenario applies to me I suppose.

That's insane (1)

Anonymous DWord (466154) | about 13 years ago | (#2475157)

According to Microsoft's numbers our manufacturing company can expect 13 desktop failures each day and one significant server failure every 15 days. The more realistic Bugtoaster number equals about 161 desktop application crashes per day.

I don't know how you could even pause before making that decision, given numbers like that.

Re:That's insane (0)

mrpotato (97715) | about 13 years ago | (#2475204)

That's insane

no it isn't. I work in a place where all software is from Microsoft. I do some support, and we do have a lot of application crashes (and we even got a pretty nasty SqlServer crash, thank god for backups).

Also, something really scary is the number of people using Access for relatively critical databases: those tend to get corrupted all the time, give poor performance, and now they get to be a f**kin headache when a part of your users upgrade their Office version (that's what I'm going through right now).

You can't even begin to imagine the loss of productivity associated with bugs in Microsoft tools.

broken assumptions. (3, Insightful)

Amokscience (86909) | about 13 years ago | (#2475164)

Obviously there are gross simplifications in the article but assuming that parents are going to buy BSD/Linux based PCs is ludicrous. Not to mention places like Dell have dropped installing Linux.

That means you would usually buy a complete PC with Windows then have to slick the drive and install Linux. And somehow I just don't see parents going with Linux. The *only* way this happens is if the school forces you to buy a prebuilt package(s) from them.

Sorry. That assumption is way too far gone to be overlooked.

Re:broken assumptions. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475232)

Why order them from dell? You can find many places that will sell you a barebones system, and you can easily find a linux cd laying around.

Reality wasn't part of the article (0)

da_Den_man (466270) | about 13 years ago | (#2475165)

I Love this Quote: "The school choosing Windows is, in contrast, commiting itself to a far more complex environment in which systems failure is a daily reality and student access to the the Windows desktop opens everything to easy insider attack. As a result this choice will impose a continuous drain on management time and energy as they confront one crisis after another" This states that every day something is going to make the system crash and damage data, and waste time. If that were the case, I wouldn't look at the implementation as opposed to the Administrator. Not for choosing the "wrong" OS, but for not knowing enough about it to make it stable and a usable platform. This would apply to Unix also, as the wrong Administrator could kill the reliability inherent to thr *Nix boxes. And the second question would have to be how many students are going to have Solaris or even Linux on their HOME machine.....? Unless they have more than one (but all college students are poor right?) they are going to be using whatever OS came with their system.

A bit ummm... speculative? (1)

uchian (454825) | about 13 years ago | (#2475167)

Reading through the article, is it just me or would the entire slashdot community be up in arms if something so unbacked up and speculative was posted saying Windows was better than Unix?

I loath Windows, but I also don't like reading un-convincing articles boasting how great unix is - I much prefer case studies, for instance, which show what as actually happened.

True, they can't necessarily be trusted any more than this, but at least there is the feeling there that they might be for real.

Not seeing the forest for the trees (1)

Shoeboy (16224) | about 13 years ago | (#2475168)

Well there's just one problem here: applications.

The author misses the simple fact that ie and MS Office don't run on Linux. This means that Linux users have to settle for "mostly good enough" document exchanges and a "mostly good enough" web experience. Like it or not, the OSS office solutions aren't fully interoperable with Microsoft's proprietary document formats. This can be immensely frustrating to the user. When you consider the growing unwillingness of major websites to support Netscape and simple fact that ie is more forgiving of poorly written html [slashdot.org] , you get very unhappy users.

So it comes down to a matter of priorities: do you want users who are satisfied with their experience but difficult to support or users who feel that their environment is unusable and who hate your guts.

My question is "if you aren't satisfying the users with your solution, why provide one at all?"

Any answers?

--Shoeboy

Re:Not seeing the forest for the trees (1)

Anonymous DWord (466154) | about 13 years ago | (#2475210)

So it comes down to a matter of priorities: do you want users who are satisfied with their experience but difficult to support or users who feel that their environment is unusable and who hate your guts.

No real answers, but what about the users who are NOT satisfied with their experience and are difficult to support? It's nice to get 4 coffee breaks a day when the server's down, but I tend to think people would actually rather WORK. Unix is scary though, there's no getting around it. People are willing to put up with constant crashes just because it's the only thing they know, and "it's too late to change now."

This comparison, like most, is useless (1)

GPFCharlie (98543) | about 13 years ago | (#2475177)

because it depends on blanket statements that are stated as fact when they are, in fact, assumptions based upon prejudice. Statements such as:

The school using Unix can reasonably expect to achieve nearly perfect system reliability while maintaining a relative immunity to student attacks.

I suppose that issues such as the BIND root exploit (to name one), are "relative immunity to student attacks".

But putting the prejudice asside, the major issue in any computing purchasing decision are almost never detemined by the factors of the OS, but rather the applications that are required.

Example: I used to be the Windows admin for the student labs for a relatively large private university with a strong CS department, but also strong science/humanities. Issues such as what applications professors wanted to use were the primary motivation in determining future hardware/OS purchasing decisions. This is why when I started we had fewer than 20 NT workstations, but by the time I left we had more than 100, eating up over 50 former DECstation UNIX terminals, which (depsite the article's position to the contrary), managed to become obsolete in 4 short years.

Another large determiner is student/parent requests. If the majority of incoming students are not UNIX savvy, but are Windows experienced, the university will incure a large training cost every year to teach new students basic UNIX operations. (same for the business) There will always be a need for UNIX systems in a university setting for certain curriculums.

On the business side, the single most important determination in IT purchasing decisions is LOB applications (Line of Business). Most companies have one or more applications that they absolutely depend on; it runs their business. If this applications only runs on UNIX, they are a UNIX shop. If it only runs on Windows, they are a Windows shop. Nothing you can do will change that.

This article is FUD. Just because it didn't come out of Redmond doesn't mean it doesn't stink just as bad.

Depends on the system administration... (2)

Rob Kaper (5960) | about 13 years ago | (#2475178)

It really all depends on the system administrator.

At work we've got a system administrator for the Windows 2000 machines and he knows what he's doing. Result: the machines run as smoothly and stable as our UNIX boxes.

Heck, when the Linux team have a bad day, more smoothly and stable.

Technically, I completely dig UNIX. Idealogically, I completely distrust anything from Redmond. Strategically, sysadmin skills are all that matter.

flatulence (-1)

Mike Hock (249988) | about 13 years ago | (#2475179)

L>

FONT SIZE="-1">(Score:-1) Tuesday October 23, @11:13PM

  • Re:Gardening [slashdot.org] by Anonymous Coward (Score:-1) Tuesday October 23, @11:26PM
  • Re:Gardening [slashdot.org] by Anonymous Coward (Score:-1) Tuesday October 23, @11:57PM

Taco: My tiny [slashdot.org] by Anonymous Coward (Score:-1) Tuesday October 23, @11:52PM

  • MOD PARENT DOWN [slashdot.org] by Anonymous Coward (Score:-1) Wednesday October 24, @12:00AM

That's cute! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475219)

I like it!!

Why Windows is Smarter (1)

The Living Fractal (162153) | about 13 years ago | (#2475181)

Well, aside from the philosophical aspect of determinism, Windows is smarter because USERS are stupid.

All that matters is what? Users.

All that matters to an OS in a low-end business sense is what? Users.

The deciding factor isn't how "smart" an OS is, or how "good" it is -- soley for the sake of the OS itself, no... based on the learning curve, and only the learning curve, of the average corporate user, an OS should be able to perform like a nurse or a nanny, not a silent mastermind who has communication problems.

Slashlies (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475185)

According to michael [slashdot.org] :

Errr, as the code is commented just above the part you pasted:

# logs attempts to break, fool, flood a particular form

That is, the people who are attempting to break, say, the comment posting form and post 500 comments at once are logged and may be banned by IP if they try hard enough.

Anyone can see, by reading Slashcode itself, not the misleading or irrelevant comments surrounding it, that the code in question does not apply to people who try to abuse the "multipost" bug (which doesn't even exist anymore; it has long since been fixed), but to people who have been moderated down with a certain frequency.

Let me spell it out for everyone since you have so little regard for the truth as to actually attempt to hide this fact:

Anyone who is moderated down four or more times within a 24-hour period will have their ENTIRE TCP/IP SUBNET banned for the following 72 hours.

That is a fact. It can be confirmed by reading the slashcode. It can further be confirmed by simply posting a comment which will be likely to garner a few negative moderations (i.e., any comment that disagrees with popluar slashdot opinions) and observing the results.

So michael, the obvious question here is, why are you lying to people? Why not just tell the thruth: The moderation system, combined with the IP-subnet-banning system, will automatically ban people for posting anything people disagree with.

Slashdot is clearly designed with the expressed purpose of surpressing unpopular opinions within its comment system.

That is, of course, your right, as this is your website and you may do with it as you choose. However, people should know that you are lying when you claim (in the FAQ and elsewhere) that people are never banned for their opinions, only for attempts at "flooding". That is complete fiction.

What to do? Well, here is a suggestion from an AC: What we need to do now is set up some sort of IP spoofing system so we can get huge popular subnets banned from commenting on Slashdot for 72 hour periods. There must be a dozen critical subnets that would really quieten things down here if they were regularly banned. I.e. a few important University campuses.

Get going on it, trolls. Have fun with it. Let's get some of these stuffed shirts banned for a few days and see them fume.

I'm not technically adept enough to accomplish this. Anyone want to have a go at it?

Reality check... (1)

Compunerd (107084) | about 13 years ago | (#2475190)

The comparison shows a total lack of knowledge about Windows systems. The way it's been put up, it says the only possible alternative of running Windows in a student environement is by using so-called thick clients.
The use of think clients (or smart displays, or whatever), using Windows 2000 Terminal Server, is possibly a far better alternative to the thick-client perspective.

That said, I'd say the Linux alternative is far cheeper anyway, but hey - Windows still have better software for the end luser.

roy

This isn't anything new (2, Insightful)

b0z (191086) | about 13 years ago | (#2475194)

This sort of information has been going around for a while, and it is still incorrect.

While I won't attempt to make the estimates myself, I will suggest a few things to take into consideration

  • Learning curves. In the school and corporate environments, people don't want to waste time learning unix or linux. They don't work the same as Windows, which is the standard desktop practically everywhere. A normal situation would be that only some of the I.T. staff and power users know unix. If you can teach the blonde bimbo that blows your boss and makes memos in MS Powerpoint to send via Outlook the advantages of being able to compile your own kernel, I'll shut up about that, but it's not realistic to assume that people can easily learn a new OS. After all, most of them don't even understand how to use Windows correctly.
  • Interaction with others outside your office. Since Windows is the standard in the corporate world, you have to be able to communicate effectively with Windows. Samba is not easy for the average user to use like network neighborhood is. OpenOffice isn't able to work with MS Office as well as people tell you. It can read some old versions of word documents, but it doesn't work with Office XP. Microsoft will most likely make a conversion tool for Windows users who are using Office 2k or older, but not for unix. Unfortunately, until you have everyone agree to use unix it will never be a good office tool for people that communicate with those outside your office.
  • Support costs. Corporate support is a very important thing. Anyone that works with big companies to maintain their server hardware and software knows that if you have a critical problem and you're paying $200k a year in support, they will have a patch out for you by COB the next day. (Perhaps that was a slight exaggeration, but they are still very quick to solve problems.) The problem is that Windows support is generally cheaper than Unix support. I wouldn't even consider linux in an office environment though, because those that support it are not the same group that developers the software.
There are others that I could mention but those are the main three things that seemed to be left out. It's hard us normal people to quantify the amount of money those things cost but most corporations have a team of people dedicated to that sort of stuff. I think that for how greedy most corporations are, if they honestly thought they could save money by not using Windows, they would switch in a heartbeat. However, after careful and detailed evaluation, much better than the one in this article, they decide to stick with Windows or migrate their stuff to it. They have to be saving money with Microsoft somehow, and I think those three categories are some of the major ways they justify it.

Any rebuttals? (1)

gooberguy (453295) | about 13 years ago | (#2475203)

Anyone have some rebuttals from the Microsoft people? It looks like this article tells us what we already knew: Use the right tool for the right job. Windows is NOT the right tool for most jobs.

D/\ Gooberguy

the sexetary doesn't like eunichs (3, Insightful)

rfsayre (255559) | about 13 years ago | (#2475205)

This article doesn't mention that it costs money to train people to use Unix. It doesn't have anything to do with how smart they are, they'll ay least need time to adjust. If you've ever read an ad in the newspaper looking for a secretary, you know that MS Office is pretty much the prerequisite. All of your employees know how to use Windows coming in, not so for Unix. Retraining people costs money.

This article seeks to use "average" scenarios to make its point. I would say that Unix would be a lot more beneficial in specialized situations, where employees use a lot of custom or specialized software (e.g. POS stations, industrial settings). They're going to have to learn anyway, so why not have them learn it on a cheaper, more stable platform?

In the college scenario, the article takes no account that many colleges make these decisions based on what the students use. Usually, that's Windows. Sometimes Mac. Almost never *nix.

In the corporate scenario, no mention is made of the need to share files with other companies. This requires Windows. No corporation really cares about the evils of closed file formats until they get in the way. Besides, how are any pitches going to be made without PowerPoint? :)

To be realistic, both situations should have compared the cost of a Windows setup vs. a mixed Unix/Windows setup, since that's how it work in the real world.

Answer the freakin' question, people... (3, Insightful)

connorbd (151811) | about 13 years ago | (#2475209)

Windows -- Grudgingly useful for desktop/secretarial environments, and you'll also find that most of the accounting packages out there, as well as many embedded systems packages, require it. Windows is also, like it or not, the OS of choice for hard-core gamers. Sucks, but true. Generally not a good choice for server environments due to cost and MS lockin (stability issues were all but eliminated with Win2K). Limited to x86 platforms; all other versions died of user apathy.

Unix -- Useful for light-to-medium duty single server environments (especially file-sharing and WWW), as well as clustering; Solaris, AIX, Irix, and occasionally even Linux pop up on high-end (i.e. mainframe or supercomputer class) systems. Also the system of choice for cluster computing (though MacOS Classic can make a credible case for being a viable cluster computation environment as well). Unix's traditional timesharing environment is a very small niche in the modern market, but still useful. Also a major scientific computing platform. The downside is that the proliferation of standards makes generalizing about anything above the command line difficult and/or pointless; Solaris != Linux != BSD, and it's going to stay that way. Runs on everything concievable, from a Commodore 64 all the way up to gigantic Cray supercomputers and Linux clusters.

MacOS -- Don't run a publishing house or recording studio without it; the Mac is the platform of choice for the creative industry. Also a good choice for education, but a weak gaming platform. MacOS X largely eliminates instability from legacy code. AppleScript as a scripting platform makes VBA and Unix Shell look horribly primitive (and MacPerl is available as well). Limited to PowerPC hardware.

That's my summation...

/Brian

Re:Answer the freakin' question, people... (1)

fault0 (514452) | about 13 years ago | (#2475235)

> AppleScript as a scripting platform makes VBA and Unix Shell look horribly primitive (and MacPerl is available as well).

How do you figure? In my experience with all three, i'd say unix shells > vba > applescript.

Re:Answer the freakin' question, people... (2)

connorbd (151811) | about 13 years ago | (#2475284)

Simple: shell scripts bind small programs together, and that's about all they do well. VBA is a direct ripoff of AppleScript that's tied to COM/ActiveX.

What AppleScript does so well (candygrammar aside) is work with the AppleEvent Object Model. A properly designed AEOM application can be controlled at a very fine-grained level by an AppleScript or anything else capable of sending the proper AppleEvents. The AppleScript grammar is a bit clumsy, but it works very well for what it's designed to do. (Yes, you could do better, but that's not my point.) The fact is that with an AppleScript you can control a properly designed app like a marionette. You can't do that with a basic old-school shell script.

/Brian

One 2x750MHz system? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475217)

The one thing the reviewer fails to compare is performance. There is no way that one 2x750MHz system is going to compare with 500 900MHz celerons, even if it is a Sun 4800 w/ 12GB of ram.

I use solaris remotely from sunray terminals at school. The performance isn't terrible, but when there are more than 10 or so people on a server, I feel like I'm using a pentium 100. And that's when only a couple of them are doing CPU intensive stuff. I'll take a dedicated CPU and minor stability problems any day of the week. 2K is actually a pretty solid OS as long as it's running on good hardware.

amortization in years? (1)

imrdkl (302224) | about 13 years ago | (#2475221)

From the article:

It makes sense to amortize the Unix investment over five years, but it would defy experience to do that for Windows.

Um, this might be stretching it a bit... I dont think that very much besides real hardware can be written down without a significant scrutiny risk from the IRS. Even hardware has been nearly comparable to ordinary expense, in the last few heady years of upgrades and speed improvements. But things perhaps are changing in that regard, as we near theoretical limits in disk storage, etc.

In an case, the rate of change in Linux releases also implies occasional upgrades. (Although perhaps not at the rate of MS) OTOH, Linux is not licensed per-workstation, either, which could help to hold costs down. :-)

Good article, this snippet especially.. (2)

A_Non_Moose (413034) | about 13 years ago | (#2475225)

....while an expert on Windows 95 networking would have first had to abandon NETBUIE for DECNET to cope with Windows/NT and now have to abandon that skill set to learn the basic Unix networking built into Windows/XP.

expert on win95 caused the same cerebral twinge normally reserved for "military intelligence" or "managerial decision".

While the mention of NETB...oh, god, I can't say it, much less type it without that "fingernails screeching down a chalk board" chill down my spine...(sniff..*SOB*, shudder...make it stop...MAKE IT STOP!!).

and that "Basic UNIX networking in XP"...oh, that explains why changing network settings no longer requires a reboot.

Learn something new every day.

Of course I love the quote--not from the article, mind you (might have been on arstechnica, I think)--- that Microsoft Windows 2000 is better and more stable that 30 year old UNIX technology, but, later claims that Windows 2000 is approaching the *stability* of said 30 year old UNIX technology...

And sure enough, there was a link to a "PR" page on windows 2000... yep, decode some of the marketing "twists and turns" and, yes-sirreee, the put UNIX down and say "We are almost as good" in black and white.

Heh.

Im tired (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#2475229)

Of comparisions.....its not TCO, its not os superiority, its not even plain cost....its plain stupidity from management what does not let sysadmins to change to a better, more rouboust technology. I was hearing a radio conversation with the Mrketing director of Dell Computers and he said something very interesting: People are not fond of our technology, they are fond of our brand and means of comercialization.

No manager cares about unix/linux being better when microsoft has invested millions in KEEPING THEIR MONOPOLY. They are not stupid, they spend that in stuff we (or unix companies) will never be able to copy like their handwrite recognition thingie.They close standards....etc. you know the drag.

The only way managers are going to start changing brands is to push ours and make effective investment in the linux/oss/unix brands. Make them feel its better for what they need (not for what we think it is, and also note that it doesnt need to actually BE better, insofar as the client beleives so). And that, we are all doing very well. Every second you take in an install fest, every server you sell or even give away and implement well, every single switch to OSS is starting to build a brand for our stuff. This is an investment even the smallest linux enthusiasts do because it costs them to switch from windows.

At larger scale, IBM is investing in the Linux brand to push their own. Redhat is pushing Linux to push their own platform, and spending money in it.... in the end, the idea is that this guys understand that it will be an open world (or more of an open world) tomorrow and they want to have the largest slice of it possible.

I want my slice, get yours too...

Re:Im tired (1)

The Bungi (221687) | about 13 years ago | (#2475271)

A Strategic Comparasion of Windows Vs. Unix

Of comparisions.....

... to a better, more rouboust technology.

Spelling just went out the Window on this one, eh.

each one got it's use... (0)

mrpotato (97715) | about 13 years ago | (#2475238)

Unix --> servers

Windows --> desktop

Those two can mix pretty well, you have the strenght of Unix servers as backend and ease of use of Windows for the desktop.

You then just have to choose applications that works well in that type of environment, and everyone will be happy. Just use some NT version of windows, win9x/ME would be a joke in a real work environment. (I'm not saying it isn't widely used already, just saying that using it is running afther trouble).

Windows is always better (-1)

Trollcaholic (522055) | about 13 years ago | (#2475239)

Nuff said.

Apples and Oranges? (1)

TACD (514008) | about 13 years ago | (#2475242)

I still maintain that *nix and Windows are pretty much non-comparable for many reasons.

Firstly, while the *nix users will maintain that they have higher quality and more efficient OSes, I would say that this is only partly due to it being *nix (with all the efficiency and miscellaneous bonuses that entails). The other part is that those people who choose to use *nix will already have knowledge and interest in computers, and will thus be more likely to know what they are doing and less prone to mistakes. The OS can be less forgiving and expectant of mistakes and can get on with doing its job, because fewer people will be completely in over their heads.

You just compare how the average Mom would do on *nix compared to Windows. Hehe.

*nix and Windows clearly cater for different markets. Windows happens to satisfy the needs of the vast majority of computer users; it is simple, it will allow mistakes (and ask if you are 'sure' about things) and it has high compatibility. (All of this in theory, of course...) *nix, on the other hand, is for people who want to end the BSODs, the resource-munching and other general evils of Windows and sodding well do some work. Compatibility may be lower, but emulators exist if needs must. *nix is far more user-customisable; it works for you, whereas Windows can only ever work with you (and that only on the best of days).

I guarantee the if the majority of Windows users began using *nix, the number of poorly-written apps, drivers and etceterae would increase a thousandfold. Dumb questions would get asked, lack of customer support would be complained about, and many many people would have no idea what the hell they were doing. And as a I ramble along with my long-winded sentences, my eventual point is that *nix-Windows comparisons are apples-to-oranges not only because of the innate differences in the OSes but because of the differences in the users themselves (and their rewuirements in an OS. Most people need one that helps them out an awful lot.)

Endnote: I use Windows. I consider myself at least moderately computer-literate; why do I not switch to *nix? It isn't really worth my time. If Windows performance degrades more and *nix compatibility improves, I mit be tempted to give it a whirl.

Do I really have to read the article... (2)

Pinball Wizard (161942) | about 13 years ago | (#2475243)

Under what circumstances is it smarter to pick one technology rather than the other?


...to guess what technology the LinuxWorld guy thought was smarter?


No, I think not. I shall look elsewhere for real comparisons.

Priceless (1, Offtopic)

skoda (211470) | about 13 years ago | (#2475253)

ller Server Hardware to Serve Articles : $7,000
Big Fat Bandwidth to Transmit Articles : $15,500
Dictionary, to Spell Check Articles : Priceless

There are some words Slashdot can spell. For all the rest, there's Merriam-Webster.

"Comparison"

Doesn't talk about Migration (1)

DA_MAN_DA_MYTH (182037) | about 13 years ago | (#2475267)

The sad thing is that it's easy to see Startup cost difference. But once that money is invested in a M$ solution, you can't exactly get a refund for switching to a Solaris solution.

However he does mention in a little box with little text...

"It is difficult to move a data center from a mixed or proprietary environment to Unix. That process is the subject of my book The Unix Guide to Defenestration and requires far more than technical change. The challenge is to change minds not just technology."

That's everything from secretaries and higher ups yelling "where's my Word, where's my Outlook and Contacts?" The people that usually don't get phased by this kind of change is developers, coders, or people that run only certain applications that would have to get ported.

He also mentions another good point...

" Using Unix enables but does not ensure success. "

Before I get modded down, I use Linux at home. :)

Case 1 unfair comparison! (1)

rfolstad (310738) | about 13 years ago | (#2475272)

This first comparison would have been valueable if the author was comparing apples to apples.
In the windows solution students have access to a full pc but in the unix solution only access via thin client.
Indeed the unix system is much cheaper because a full pc on each desktop is not required. There has got to be a thin client solution for windows aswell! I bet atleast the Java Citrix client would run on those same SunRays. This comparison would have been more valid if the author chose the same design for each platform! Also i can't think of any school that could get away with thin clients for their students not to mention the lack of standard office apps like m$ word.
This school is definetly not teaching any programming courses with no physical access to a pc!

R

If that's true how come that's not how it is? (1)

Nelson (1275) | about 13 years ago | (#2475283)

If it just simple dollars and cents then why is the real world different?
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