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Andromeda To Become Less Complex?

chrisd posted more than 12 years ago | from the too-complicated-for-kevin-sorbo dept.

Television 339

Prehensile Plant writes "After 7 years of Voyager and now the godawful Enterprise, the guy responsible for everything good about Deep Space Nine has just been sacked from the show he developed. Robert Hewitt Wolfe has parted company with the last bastion of scifi for people with half a brain - Andromeda. Wolfe said: "Basically, they want the show to be more action driven, more Dylan-centric, and more episodic. They also want more aliens, more space battles, and less internal conflict among the principal characters. Also, they want a lot less continuity so as not to confuse the casual or new viewer with too much backstory." Slipstream has the full scoop.

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339 comments

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first fist (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605482)

first fist is when you fist someone first in quake 3 arena

Discovery Channel anyone? (0, Offtopic)

jnaazgul (185431) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605485)

Since now that's what's left on viewable TV. Hat trick to that fine fine gentleman with a passion for good TV.

Speedwriting anyone? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605497)

Your post is unreadable, yet it's not a FP. You are just too altruist.
Next time type "sdhjsadhasdkasdadsh", or better, keep that in the clipboard ready to be pasted.
It will give better chances!

Re:Discovery Channel anyone? (2)

RayChuang (10181) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605502)

Actually, I like History Channel myself.

The changes to the Enterprise series shows that too many TV producers for the major over-air networks are dumbing down their shows unneccessarily. :-(

At least we have Buffy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605639)

Buffy and the Sopranos are both excellent shows that balance depth and continuity with an episodic nature. Once they're gone, we're screwed.

Bullshit weak sci-fi crap (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605486)

For American public.. the same people that like that joke of Babylon 5.
What's Dracula doing in that serial TV anyway ?

Why is this so bad? (1)

frostgiant (243045) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605487)

This isn't that outrageous, now is it? I mean, they're trying to attract more viewers and get rid of that stigma that surrounds Star Trek fans. Which Star Trek episode do you prefer -- the one with Picard struggling on whether or not to help those aliens even though it violates the Prime Directive or when they fight Romulans?
And why is Enterprise so bad?

Picard struggling... (1)

John Guilt (464909) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605579)

...as long as it's done well. Simple G.v.E. violence is a simple script, but it can't get very good. Interpersonal and moral struggle can be awfully done, sappy as hell, and so one, but it has the chance to become something som much better than that other stuff can eve possibly be.

Re:Why is this so bad? (1)

Tibe (444675) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605661)

Yeah, ST:DS9 was the most annoying ST for me, missing one episode was like being fry in the cryo thing. VOY I enjoyed, with just enough background stuff to be good but with enough of an episode focus you could still understand it after missing one show. As for ENT having not been able to see it (stupid New Zealand TV) I cant really comment but I thought VOY took it far enough on the 'episodic' thing.

fafewfw (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605493)

fawefawefawefawefawefaewf

Too late Buddy !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605505)

Nice try, but you really needed to try a bit earlier.
I'm glad you are getting on the right path though.

May the First Force be with you.

What is this? (1)

CrystalCut (307381) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605498)

Deep Space 9 was the last ST Series I had an interest in. Andromeda and Farscape are the only 2 series I watch now, and if Andromeda starts leaning towards the direction that article describes, I probably won't stick around to watch.
A shame. B5 - first season, anyone?

godawful Enterprise? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605499)

godawful Enterprise

About the only thing objectionable about Enterprise thus far has been the contrivance of the distrust between Vulcans and Humans. It's as if the writers simply wanted to invert tradition for the pure hell of it.

Other than that it has been somewhat entertaining.

Re:godawful Enterprise? (2)

zephc (225327) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605517)

I dont think it's contrived. They explained that the Vulcans have been looking over the Humans' shoulders for a hundred hears or so, and so that the real human-vulcan trust wont be formed until, say, the REAL Federation is formed

Sorry to say this (1)

TMacPhail (519256) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605564)

You dont think it's contrived? I hate to say this but it is a TV show written by people called writers who are contriving the whole thing. I know you are going to argue the point that it doesnt quite follow what was portrayed in the previous star trek shows. Guess what... They were contrived too. There is no harm done in being slightly original for this incarnation of star trek.

Re:Sorry to say this (1)

J. J. Ramsey (658) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605581)

That is a loose meaning of "contrived," especially when discussing quality of writing. "Contrived" here means something more like not hanging or fitting together, a lack of seamlessness.

Re:godawful Enterprise? (1)

jhines (82154) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605560)

the score really sucks as well.

fossp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605500)

first open source sucks post!

Worst Episode Ever (3, Informative)

s20451 (410424) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605503)

After 7 years of Voyager and now the godawful Enterprise,

In the immortal words of Bart Simpson:

Hey, I know it wasn't great, but what right do you have to complain? ... They're giving you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? If anything, you owe them.

No, I don't owe them. (2)

Floyd Turbo (84609) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605521)

They've been paid for their time, and paid well. And if they choose to cynically exploit their fans by airing drek like Enterprise or the most of the last couple episodes of The Simpsons, that's all the right to complain I need.

Re:Worst Episode Ever (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605645)

>"In the immortal words of Bart Simpson:


Hey, I know it wasn't great, but what right do you have to complain? ... They're giving you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? If anything, you owe them."


That has to be truly the most breathtakingly asinine statement I have ever heard in my entire life, and that includes everything that Dan Quayle and Dubya have ever said. My jaw hit the floor when I first saw that episode.


First of all, Einstein, television programs are there for one reason and one reason only--to get you to watch the commercials. That is what T.V. is all about. That's is why it tries so hard to appeal to the lowest common denominator of any given demographic group. That is why a 1/2 hour program seems to consist of 10 minutes of adverts. Therefore it is not really free, now is it?


Second of all, free or not if I happen to see/read/listen to something that I feel is badly done I will say so. If you don't like it--tough. I have every right to speak my mind irregardless of what people like you think. I've already been attacked as a "snob" because lately I've been making a conscious effort to avoid garbage and seek out excellence in literature, art and cinema. If that makes me a snob so be it. I could give a rat's ass what the herd thinks; if you want to waste your precious time on this earth eating shit then bon appatit, pal.

Same old saw (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605663)

Ah yes, this old argument again. So, according to what you are saying, no TV show should be criticized for being bad. I trust you enjoy all television programs equally? There's no crime in acknowledging poorly written shows for what they are and Enterprise is a steaming pile of crap, plain and simple. From it's putrid opening ballad, to its end credits.

I can see the point... (5, Interesting)

Have Blue (616) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605506)

...of wanting less continuity. Too much continuity does make it hard for new viewers to get into. I have never watched Babylon 5, for the sole reason that I would like to watch it from start to finish in the correct order, which is virtually impossible now that I missed its heyday (no one runs it any more and it's far to large to rent, even if it was available). Having less (not no) continuity would allow people to pay close attention to every episode if they wanted to , but not get totally confused by missing a show or two. The X-files actually did this pretty well (for a while).

Re:I can see the point... (1)

blkros (304521) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605533)

I have never watched Babylon 5, for the sole reason that I would like to watch it from start to finish in the correct order, which is virtually impossible now that I missed its heyday (no one runs it any more...
Uhhh..SciFi channel runs it 5 nights a week, dude.
And they run it in order, you just have to wait for it to cycle around.

Re: "no one runs it anymore" (4, Informative)

CrusadeR (555) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605537)

That's not true unless you lack cable television (I'm assuming you're in the USA).

Sci-Fi (http://www.scifi.com/babylon5/ [scifi.com] ) has been running Babylon 5 episodes (and the movies, and the 13 episodes of the follow up series Crusade on occasion) in order for over a year now. I missed it during the original run, but have since seen the vast majority of the show during this new run.

Moreover, they funded a new B5 movie which will air in January, B5: Legend of the Rangers (http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers [scifi.com] ).

Re: "no one runs it anymore" (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605608)

That's not true unless you lack cable television (I'm assuming you're in the USA).

Sorry to interject on this one, but the USA doesn't have a monopoly on cable (and certainly not on Satellite!), so I don't quite get the association of those two statements.

Re: "no one runs it anymore" (1)

Doktor Memory (237313) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605673)

The reason for this disclaimer was not that he didn't know that cable tv exists outside the USA, but because he does know that outside the US, having cable doesn't necessarily increase your chances of getting the SciFi Channel.

Re:I can see the point... (1)

userunknown (82605) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605538)

It runs on the sci-fi channel and they usually run them in order and repeat when they hit the end.

B5 is on the SciFi Channel (1)

J.C.B. (141141) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605555)

They're showing reruns during the week at 6PM US Central. I think they're around season 3 right now.

Actually, as far a continuity goes if you jump in now (or a week or two ago) you'll be fine. You'll pick up all the backstory pretty quick, you just won't have in handed to you in a slow, easily digestible way.

As far episodic shows, I don't particularly care for them. I can't stand watching TNG anymore because everything is too self contained for my tastes now, everything gets wrapped up in an hour (or two if it's a complex problem). It's much interesting if a show's episodes are connected together somehow than if they are discrete self-contained units.

Star Trek is in the TV (0)

Brendan Byrd (105387) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605749)

I feel you on that note about TNG, which is a shame for people like me who are watching marathons on TNN. I'm watching these episodes now, and going "Wow...it looks so...errr...primative." Then I compare it to Farscape and it seems enjoyable, even the episodic episodes.

Was Roddenberry that formulatic? (Definately less formulatic than the completely brainless souls who did Voyager and Enterprise.)

In any case, Babylon 5 is still the best sci-fi series ever created, and I was saddened the several times that both TNT and that independant TV company before them had given JMS (producer/creator) the shaft. Crusade was an awesome series that was cancelled only after 13 episodes, probably because of a bad 10PM timeslot. (This is after TNT advertised the living frell outta Babylon 5 and yet left a potential cashcow out to dry.)

Don't get me wrong, though: I love Farscape, but nothing had the emotion and impact as the B5 series.

Re:I can see the point... (1)

dfn5 (524972) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605578)

Continuity is what made B5 great and the last best hope for Sci-Fi. In the beginning the viewer doesn't understand anything about what's going on, and every episode added crucial information. It had all the elements of a good mystery, which made it very exciting. Paramount never understood this and is why they have beaten Star Trek like a dead horse. Without continuity each episode becomes little more than a sitcom. And who says B5 isn't on anymore? I watch it every day.

Re:I can see the point... (2)

Have Blue (616) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605647)

In response to everyone who said "Watch Sci-fi", I do live in the USA but I don't get that channel. The choice was premium cable or broadband, and guess which won :)

My favorite quote (5, Insightful)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605507)

from Sorbo: "Robert is a genius, but was developing stories that were too complicated and too clever for the rest of us to understand."

Translation:

"Despite the fact that the average Sci Fi viewer is ten times more intelligent than the average soap opera viewer, we didn't think they'd be smart enough to follow a complex story line. Also, it doesn't make a difference if the episodes are bad, just as long as more people watch them. Only Star Trek geeks have pride in their work."

Re:My favorite quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605532)

"Despite the fact that the average Sci Fi viewer is ten times more intelligent than the average soap opera viewer,...

If they're that smart, how come Voyager lasted seven years? Hell, if they're that smart, how come Mutant X has lasted seven episodes?

Re:My favorite quote (2)

Dyolf Knip (165446) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605576)

I was an avid Trek fan all through TNG and DS9 (went to conventions, had a major periphenalia collection, etc, etc) and even I skipped the last 2 years of Voyager. It lasted 7 years because, as bad as it was, it was about the best UPN had to offer.

Re:My favorite quote (2)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605688)



If they're that smart, how come Voyager lasted seven years? Hell, if they're that smart, how come Mutant X has lasted seven episodes?


SciFi fandom is kinda odd like that. There's a whole slew of questionable works that are idolized. Even if part of that appreciation is the acknolodgement of the individual work's flaws. It would seem that sometimes there is more to a work than its obvious flaws. Or maybe there's some enjoyment in the horrid aspect of a work (MST3K!).


Or sometimes SciFi fans are so desperate for scifi that they'll support anything that comes remotely close to their interest.

Re:My favorite quote (5, Funny)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605597)

Alternate Translation:


"We will finally do something I can understand - less 'Star Trek' and more 'Hercules'. I'll be able to read my script without getting a headache. And I hope to be wearing tight leather pants soon."

Re:My favorite quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605632)

Most sci-fi fans i've met are no smarter than the average soap opera fans. They also seem to enjoy long, unrealistic plots and poor dialog.

Admit It (1)

Rogain (91755) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605736)

Admit it, you just like to weep. Deep, complicated shows were we all get to feel each others emotions. Aaaahhhhh, I bet your so in touch with your female-side you've grown a vagina!

Malda's Dick article (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605510)

what the hell is this ?? http://cmdrtaco.net/rants/penis.shtml [cmdrtaco.net] ???
Have any of you commander-taco-sex trolls ever read THAT??
Kind of bewildered me... what a weird rant.... penises make me nervous.

That's exactly what's wrong with Enterprise (5, Interesting)

alen (225700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605511)

All the strange new worlds have been discovered. They should concentrate the show on the wars with the Klingons, Romulans and conflicts with other species. After more than 10 seasons of strange new worlds what else is left? How many more humanoid type races can the make up artists think up? All the alien races on star trek are very simplistic and concentrate on one quality of humanity. By now I think they are out of qualities and should have the human race covered.

I liked the pilot, but all the other episodes are hardly original and even kind of boring. Perfect example is a few weeks ago when they went to the planet colonized 80 years ago that got irradiated and the humans now live underground. They should fire the writers. It sounded so stupid trying to invent a new dialect for those people and making it sound like bad Shakespeare.

Re:That's exactly what's wrong with Enterprise (2)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605529)

this is true, it should be less about new places since all those places were discovered by the timne kurk was captin...it should focuse much more on the humans becoming part of Galactic society and how we became to dominate so much at such a young age. perhaps that is how the romulans and klingons grew to hate us, we steped on the toes of the big guys at a young age and took the reigns away from them.

that is where the interesting plot line is

Re:That's exactly what's wrong with Enterprise (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605623)

I think that would an interesting plot to follow. Humans, the unruly upstarts.

Re:That's exactly what's wrong with Enterprise (1)

Rhonwyn (49658) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605695)

So far, every episode of Enterprise is just a rehashing of TOS or TNG. The words have changed, but the music is the same. We do have one last bastion of sci-fi, Farscape, although the sci-fi channel has gone back to reruns. I'm not sure when the new episodes are coming, but now I only have that to look forward to each week, especially with the turns Dark Angel has taken this season.

Re:That's exactly what's wrong with Enterprise (1)

goatman.cx (536700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605712)

Oh, I think the music is quite different, we now have Rod Stewart *every* week.

Well... (3, Funny)

J.C.B. (141141) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605512)

There's always Farscape and Lexx.

Re:Well... (1)

Shuh (13578) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605580)

Excuse me.... don't you mean: "Lexx and Farscape?" ;c)

Re:Well... (1)

Rogain (91755) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605744)

HAHAHAHHAHHAHHAAAAAHA!

Oh god how can anyone watch such garbage!

Wait on second (2, Insightful)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605514)

Also, they want a lot less continuity so as not to confuse the casual or new viewer with too much backstory.

isn't that what sitcoms are for?.....SCiFi is for smart people, not for the retard who watched "Jerry" or the pop culture people who watch "will and grace" or "Survivor"

Re:Wait on second (3, Funny)

alen (225700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605536)

Jerry Springer is awesome once in a while. I liked the episode when this woman broke up with her boyfriend because she found a new one. On show she found out that her new boyfriend had a twin brother and they were both screwing her without her knowing. One would be having sex while the other hid in the bathroom. OF course it was never explained what would happen if she wanted to go to the bathroom.

Re:Wait on second (4, Funny)

AndroidCat (229562) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605607)

I can see the next two Sci-Fi series now:
- StarFleet's Most Exciting Chases
- When Klingons Go Wild

Oh yeah, and several stupid "reality TV" dating/elimination shows. (But with aliens)

Maybe they'll turn TROOPS [theforce.net] into a series...

Re:Wait on second (2)

not_cub (133206) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605622)

SCiFi is for smart people, not for the retard who watched "Jerry" or the pop culture people who watch "will and grace" or "Survivor"


This type of comment is just more masturbation in the style of "is code art?". Code is for monkeys. Sci-fi is for people who are impressed by make-up. Books are for clever people (they also contain less adverts.


Disclaimer: I write code, I watch Star Trek, I read very few books, and I know I am not Stephen Hawking.


not_cub

Re:Wait on second (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605664)

Nope, sci-fi is for people who got beat up at school, and want to pretend they are better because they enjoy it, even though it is no more intellectual than a generic sitcom.

In the end, it's all about money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605515)

Sure, it sucks to have a TV show sell out like this, but let's face it. Especially now, with the economy being so tight, the people responsible for paying the bills and selling advertising need the show to be as strong as it can be. This unfortunately means 'hollywoodizing' it and losing some of the elements that made it interesting.

Eat me! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605519)

Then feed me!

What I want for Andromeda (2)

Sabalon (1684) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605520)

I like this show. It was interesting, plus I like the fact that not all the aliens have funny ridges on their nose.

However, they need to find a damn timeslot for it and keep it there. I haven't seen the show for quite a while because it seemed every week it was on at a different time, or pre-empted.

Nice way to develop viewers.

And yes...I know my problems would be solved if I could convince my wife of the benefits of a Tivo!

son of a! (2)

Lord Omlette (124579) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605524)

I dunno if any of you have been watching Earth: Final Conflict, but this last season of its has been sucking tremendous ass.

At the very least we have Stargate SG-1 to entertain us? The entire show is only about continuity!

On the other hand, remember that whole Tabasco fiasco with Roswell? I don't watch Roswell, but there was some massive campaign to keep the show from being cancelled, maybe something like that can be done to prevent this loss of what makes Andromeda cool?

Re:son of a! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605674)

Yeah, EFC sucks. I stopped watching after the
Boone revival. What a waste of a great
character. I guess the last episode of season 4
should have been a warning to all who thought
of watching this season. Thank god it's their
last.

ARG!!!! (1)

BigZaphod (12942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605526)

NO!! Bastards! Andromeda is/was the last good scifi on TV (next to old B5 reruns). This just sucks. Ruined my day. :-(

I don't know (1)

userunknown (82605) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605530)

It actually could be an improvement. I'm very sick of the little battle between tyr (spelling?) and Dylan. I want them to be friends. I know some may think that would suck but sci-fi is all about an escape from reality, I guess their animosity is just a little to real for me.

-Mark

You've gotta be kidding me (2)

Sarcasmooo! (267601) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605539)

As far as I'm concerned, no one can argue with the fact that, at the very least, Enterprise is well-acted. I personally like it. But 'Andromeda'!? That is the most idiotic show I've ever seen. I liked Deep Space Nine, and I only now realized that someone from it is writing for Andromeda; he must've suffered massive head injuries. The entire cast looks like they were ripped out of a Gap commercial to play in this 'trendy, fashionable, sci-fi show'. Kevin Sorbo is a joke. The only sci-fi show he should be in should be one where he makes fun of himself constantly as a comedic, egomaniacal captain. And the acting all around is just horrible. If the requirements for becoming an astronaut included starring in Calvin Klein underwear ads it might be a tiny bit easier to suspend disbelief and watch an entire episode. Blech.

Re:You've gotta be kidding me (2)

alen (225700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605547)

Maybe they were looking to make Hercules in space?

Re:You've gotta be kidding me (1)

Sarcasmooo! (267601) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605554)

In the interest of fairness (and not getting flamed), maybe something's changed about Andromeda since the time I first watched it, when it had just started it's first season. I guess they coulda sprayed the cast with a 'smarty-beam' or something.

Re:You've gotta be kidding me (1)

Lurkingrue (521019) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605615)

I know you prefaced this comment with "As far as I'm concerned", but you then proceeded to add the contradictory:

...no one can argue with the fact that, at the very least, Enterprise is well-acted.

and, well, I'd argue that point, quite emphatically.

While the plotlines are pretty awful, and the sets/special effects are third-rate, the true horribleness of "Enterprise" can't be pinned strictly on these areas alone. The acting from the "support" cast has been pretty wooden and one dimensional (which, I admit, is hard to disentangle from bad writing), but Bakula is really at his worst -- he completely fails to emote, and even his expression never changes. And I won't even bring up how "Vulcan-babe" tries to use the "cold and logical" facade to cover up her inability to act (I didn't know that "testy, snide and laconic" were traits of the inhabitants of Vulcan).

I'm admittedly not a big Trek fan, but I thought I'd tune in to see what all the hype was about...I should have realized from the opening song that this was a big mistake, but I gave it a chance (or three).

Perhaps they can turn it around over the next couple of seasons, but, the point is, I'd argue that the acting IS a weak spot that they have to work on.

Re:You've gotta be kidding me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605711)

Forget Vulcan-babe, man - she isn't all that good looking as a Vulcan, anyway.

Lust over the Korean-born translator chick who (it is suggested) has a thing for Archer.

Re:You've gotta be kidding me (1)

Spinality (214521) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605630)

Blech -- Sarcasmooo!
I totally agree. I have found Andromeda uniformly disappointing. My biggest complaint is in the writing. It uses the same simple-minded space opera approach that I hated in shows like Babylon V and Battlestar Gallactica: 'Treat the audience like we're all 13-year old underachievers.' The plots in Quake were more thought-provoking. I must say that Enterprise strikes me much the same way -- IMO it's only a poor shadow of Next Generation, from the standpoint of acting and concept. (Outstanding acting, in fact. Voyager was mixed, but it also had its great moments, and of course it also had Jeri Ryan. ;) &ltsigh&gt I also found Earth: Final Conflict of interest from time to time. But for some reason on TV "SF" always seems to get translated as "Stupidity Farce.")

I can't say I'm surprised by this, since that is the same approach we get in all our mass-market entertainment products, a category that sadly also includes news reporting. (How many times have we heard what should have been bright, experienced reporters ask "So without revealing any classified information, do we currently have a special forces team on the ground, where is it, and what is its biggest vulnerability?")

There aren't too many shows that leave me thinking "Gawd, what a bunch of brilliant writers." (Contrast this to even old Warner Brothers cartoons, fer chrissakes, or Rocky & Bullwinkle, which often had ingenious and hilarious humor of a very adult nature. Imagine what would happen if, say, David Mamet wrote a TV series. Well, strike that thought...it would never happen because it wouldn't make any money. Heaven forbid we use subtlety or metaphor, and expect our audience to think. Better explain everything a few times.) Everything seems geared to the stupidest common denominator.

Re:You've gotta be kidding me (1)

mr. marbles (19251) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605714)

has anyone noticed the obvious phallic symbol that the andromeda crew uses as their photons shooting weapon?

Aw crap. (1)

hirschma (187820) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605551)

Man, this was absolutely the last show I liked, and now they're going to kill it.

Just who do they think their audience is, anyway? Maybe they should sex up the chicks and add a laugh track...

Scifi?? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605552)

last bastion of scifi for people with half a brain

Excuse me, but what sci-fi? Simple space opera that requires no brain...

A Sign of the Times (5, Informative)

hillct (230132) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605566)

It's sad that producers have such a low opinion of viewers these days, that they choose to dumb down otherwise intentionally texdured and compled material. Gene Rodenbury would be rolling over in his grave if his ashes weren't floating in space.

The scary thing is the producers might be right. The steps probably will improve ratings for the show, which is a pathetic comentary on television audiances.

Also, I periodically watched 'Earth: Final Conflict' but this season the producers decided to trash the plot arc and introduce an episodic action driven cookie-cutter plot strategy. There really isn't any good Sci-Fi out there, except perhaps Stargate-SG1 and The Outer Limits.

On the other hand, since none of us are actively producing television series, we don't really have much of a right to complain. Some may say that producers should listen to us because we, the audience, are the 'customers' and are always right, but certainly the changes being made to these shows are based of viewer feedback and focus groups, with the intent to improve ovarall ratings and thus proffit.

Perhaps the programming via subscription model that as tried several times a few years back, needs to be applied to Sci-Fi series. I havn't heard much about this model ($19.95 per season per viewer) recently which leads me to believe the original attempts ere spectacular failures, but perhaps with the more dedicated audiences of Sci-Fi, it would work better.

--CTH

Re:A Sign of the Times (2, Insightful)

libre lover (516057) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605746)

Some may say that producers should listen to us because we, the audience, are the 'customers' and are always right

We, the audience, are not the customers and whether we are right or not doesn't matter. The advertisers are the customers and the media executives pay the producers to create a product that will deliver the eyeballs to the advertisers. Sometimes the producers, perhaps to avoid boredom on the job, forget about the eyeballs and make something good but if it doesn't deliver the eyeballs the executives will find a monkey who will get the job done.

What you talkin' 'bout, fool?? (2)

Reality Master 101 (179095) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605567)

I think Enterprise rocks. DS9 was my favorite Star Trek series, and Enterprise is climbing rapidly.

What I especially like about Enterprise is that it's interesting watching the humans do their thing while being the "clueless newbies" on the block.

I also particularly like the way they've handled the Vulcans. It really shows how one dimensional the Vulcans have been in previous episodes. At their best, they are cool toward humans, and at their worse (e.g., the Starship captain) they are downright rude jerks. It's interesting seeing that the Vulcans have done some growing in the later centuries as well.

The characters are still learning their role, but so far, I really like the show.

The only thing negative is that they've embraced time travel plots. I hate time travel plots. There are very few plots that require time travel, and couldn't be rewritten without it. RM101's rule: All time travel episodes suck*.

*Well, except for the original series' City on the Edge of Forever where Kirk, Spock and McCoy go back to the 1930s. But that's the exception that proves the rule.

and... (-1, Offtopic)

banka (464527) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605568)

in other news today,
the makers of friends decided that it would change the plot to sci-fi, where joey tries to save jennifer from the evil shopping mall aliens.
also,
seinfeld recently announced it would rekindle taping of episodes, only that the show will now be a drama

This is old news. (2, Insightful)

wadetemp (217315) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605575)

This entire season has already been this way. The loss of a writer isn't going to kick the change into motion... the format change was at the start of this season. It all started with the "improved" theme song, and transgressed into many episodes of Dylan running around, jumping off things, and shooting alot; Trance "confessing" to being a sex slave, Rommie's "bad ass android" episode, etc. Has no one already noticed that none of this is "real" Sci-Fi, but ratings garnish? Still, I like the show just fine. :)

andromeda is a joke!! (0, Troll)

ciupman (413849) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605577)

Only saw 2 episodes ... bad aliens .. bad actors .. bad sfx ... bad script ... bad bad bad bad bad bad .. Alien makeup is awfull.. and i never saw it again

Everything GOOD about DS9??? (1)

Stonan (202408) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605588)

What was good about DS9? It was, is and always will be one of the worst Star Trek series because of two things:

1. It wasn't an orginial Star Trek idea. Paramount's execs saw Babylon 5 when when all the new shows were shopping themselves around to the networks for the fall schedule.THEY decided that was when they wanted the next Start Trek series to be.

2. Way, way, way too much religious junk! At least with Babylon 5 it was different religoins. With DS9 it was always Bagoran this, Bagoran that. It has to be something like 50% of the episodes have some sort of Bagoran religious crisis or something dug out of the Cardasian occupation.

This is the only Star Trek series that had heavy soap-opera type storylines.

Before I sign off, I will say that there are a few good DS9 episodes. The one where Sisko leads the life of a black story writer in the 40s and the one when Morn fakes his death comed to mind as some memorable episodes. But considering how many episodes there are and those are the only two I can think of kinda prooves my point...

Same guys as EFC? (2, Insightful)

GangsterDutchSchultz (538635) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605592)

Great, are these the same guys calling the shots with Earth Final Conflict? Every season got worse because they kept of 'fixing' the show. Andromeda isn't broke so DON'T FIX IT. They'll keep the strong ratings by keeping the viewers they earned the first season. The first season was great, the second so far even better. Hope they come to their sences.

Keep Majel happy. [cinescape.com]

This isn't the 3rd page of the Washington Times (1)

Dr Fro (169927) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605594)

Geeze... enough with the side comments when you post an article already. That's what the point of the replies is

This isn't "Editorials for nerds, two cents from people you've never met nor care to."

Petition? (2, Interesting)

hirschma (187820) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605601)

Ok, its the goofiest thing I'll ever do, but I like this show so much I'd sign one. Anyone know where it is?

The first season, was, by far, the best season of science fiction on TV ever. The finale was awesome. And yes, things started sucking even at the beginning of season two... although it is still a great show.

Soooo..... (1)

ebbomega (410207) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605609)

When is Paramount going to finally visit a graveyard and realize that Roddenbury is dead?

Honestly, I think it's gotten to the point of bedragglement. They're taking a concept and attempting to build a universe out of it. The problem is that universes are relatively boring. It's new and driving concepts that keep the novelty of sci-fi interesting.

Everybody's complaining that Enterprise is boring, and I have to concur. For the same reason that I highly disliked U2's latest album. It's a "homecoming." And in production value, homecoming means "none of our new stuff is working, let's go back to what seemed to work the first time around." Which means: no innovation, no ingenuity, and eventual boredom.

Star Trek got cancelled. They got lucky with TNG that they rekindled some of the fire. But TNG got cancelled as well. Voyager never took off at all, and DS9 suffered the Babylon 5 syndrome of the ever-dreaded cult following (which Undergrads seems to be hitting and suffering from... http://www.undergrads.tv/ ) But fer chrissakes, you can only pull off so many stunts (Jeri Ryan? Return of the Borg queen?) to regain a momentary quick-fix resurgence in the general population in order to keep a series of TV shows running.

I guess the point I'm probably failing at getting across is: Star Trek is over. The man behind the entire concept is dead and simply bedraggling all of his half-finished concepts is merely tainting his image and hurting what used to be a very reputable and enjoyable tv/movie franchise.

Anything that happens in respect to Roddenbury's projects (Trying desperately to keep this on-topic...) I think is pointless and predictable politics in Paramount trying desperately to milk money out of a already harshly depleted resource.

</rant>

Re:Soooo..... (2)

Dyolf Knip (165446) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605640)

When is Paramount going to finally visit a graveyard and realize that Roddenbury is dead?

Well, you do know that he was cremated and some of his ashes were sent up with the Shuttle and scattered in outer space? Hard to find, these days...

They gave Wolfe Trance's tail... (1)

John Guilt (464909) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605613)

...as a lovely parting gift.

Sorry to hear of the changes; lots of thought (and plagiarism, esp. of Ian Banks I think) went into the show.

Seriously, Sorbitol's acting is pretty bad, but Harper is as obnoxious as all the genius engineers in skiffy should have been.

Intelligent Sci-Fi (2)

Alien54 (180860) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605619)

Babylon 5, Legend of the Rangers [b5lr.com] is a new Babylon 5 series spinoff due to start airing in January 2002 [b5lr.com] less than 2 months away.
Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers (B5LR) is a spin-off of Babylon 5 , and will initially be a 90-minute telemovie called "To Live and Die in Starlight". It airs on the US SCI FI Channel in January 2002.
So never fear, people addicted to intelligent Science fiction have something new on the horizon.

Good Interview here [scifi.com]

The hope is that this will go on to become a series

As far as Andromenda, this sounds like Paramount is trying to do what TNN wanted to do with the Bab5 sequel, turn it into a Science fiction version cross mix of WWF and Baywatch.

If it was that easy, why doesn't someone try to write stuff like that? Or don't they know that that it is easier to write stuff that sucks vs stuff that is good?

Damn! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605626)

This is one of the very few TV shows that has actually *impreesed* me in the last year.. there were a couple of hiccups in its first season but this thing was shaping up.. last weeks episode(Tyr and Dylan attack Nietzchien(sp?) base while Harper runs Rommie) was some of the best sci-fi I've seen in a while.. definitely beat anything Voyager *ever* put out, was as good as some of the better B5's and had me hoping Enterprise is able to progress as far in it's second season.
A note about the interpersonal conflict, it is done very well, taking the characters pasts and motivations into account.. if this becomes another Earth: Final Conflict, or Hercules: In Space.. I will be saddened indeed.

--iamnotayam

Mini-series Trek (2)

Dyolf Knip (165446) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605629)

I've always thought a mini-series approach would work well with Star Trek. Rather than picking 7 years of the Trek universe and focusing on one lousy ship and crew, they would have half a dozen shows focusing on some interesting aspect of the whole Trek future history. Show them from different races points of view, even. I for one would like to see the separation of the Romulans and the Vulcans. The founding of the Federation, Kahless and the Klingon Empire, Changlings and the Dominion, even the Borg Collective (one of the better Voyager episodes was suggestive along these lines). The Cardassian occupation of Bajor. The wars with the Romulans and Klingons and why the Feds have the Prime Directive. Events leading to the destruction of the Enterprise-C. What happened in the period between First Contact and Enterprise. The Orion Syndicate. There's hundreds of years and thousands of concepts that could be explored.

This way, there's tremendous continuity between episodes of each 'series', but you need only have a smattering of knowledge about Star Trek to pick up on a new one. Also, there's enough time to do some character development, but not enough that they have to get radically desperate for ideas the way they did with some episodes.

time to read a book instead (1)

Navarre (60169) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605649)

Less interaction among the characters, more action, less continuity? So, they mean more crap and less story. Lovely. I swear, TV execs are totally clueless as to how to please anyone with half a brain.

I think I'll cancel my cable and go read a book now. Thanks to these same TV execs, there isn't much good on anyway.

Re:time to read a book instead (1)

Rogain (91755) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605758)

Admit it, you don't really have half a brain.

Look more carefully at the genre (1)

fireboy1919 (257783) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605654)

Its worse if that happens? Hardly. Its different. Many sci-fi shows throughout the history of television have been action based - especially ones about the future of (mostly) humanity. And this show does focus upon the future of humanity more than other shows - consider that a few of the different characters are wayists (more like deist), Nietzschian (more like Darwinist), pragmatist, and idealist.
And basically, at the beginning of the show, it was a lot like the original star trek - take human philosophies such as these that clash to the extreme and have them fight or at least struggle in order to accomplish something. Of course, you could always develop them more as they have been after the beginning, but not necessarily.

V, Logan's run, and the original Star Trek all had SOME elements of fighting, but mostly it was just fighting. Not a lot of science, either, just a futuristic look. So what?
I'll enjoy the show the way I enjoy cheasy action sci-fi shows rather than the way I enjoy cheasy plot sci-fi shows.

recipe for success for ST (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605655)

hot babes
sex
rock-n-roll
violence
explosions
cars
football

etc.

god bless television

farscape! (1)

John Meacham (1112) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605669)

Just a plug. farscape on the scifi channel has ruined all other (star trek, andromeda, etc..) shows for me. it is really well written with believable characters. highly recommended.

Allright! (1)

Rogain (91755) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605672)

Now maybe I can start watching Andromeda again, it fucking sucks now. Lets hope DS9 fires this douche bag as well. DS9 used to be a great show, but now it is just a fucking Soap Opera, The Young and The Restless set in outer space. It shrinks my dick everytime I accidentally see an episode. Star Trek is not suposed to be a weepfest, it is about Aliens, technology, science and cool shit!

Re:Allright! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605723)

>Lets hope DS9 fires this douche bag as well.


DS9 has been off the air for years, dumbass. But then again, a moron such as yourself who applauds the changes taking place on Andromeda couldn't be bothered to know that.

But it still has Lexa Doig, right? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605689)

But it still has Lexa Doig as the ship's hologram/robot, right? Whew! As long as she stays around, I guess the plot doesn't matter too much...

Star Trek: Quakedrema (1)

rah (64042) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605704)

Just produce a star trek quake mod, and add new aliens each week. Have tournaments each week.

Isn't that what they want? Less continuity, more action, new aliens, and the interteam problems are easy to understand from match to match. ;)

Case of mistaken identity.. (2)

_Mustang (96904) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605715)

I've watched Andromeda in it's entirety. The first season was definately arranged around a far more complex plot (per episode) than the new 2nd season.
But you know what - I still like the show.

If anyone can remember back to when shows like "Gunsmoke" and "Bonanza" ruled the airwaves, you'd notice the similarities between them and Andromeda immediately. There's that deep announcer-type voice over for the opening, that grand idea of "taming" the hinterlands and a cast whose story revolved mostly around their "homestead". Then we have the fact thatthe characters are almost one-to-one. For example, the leader and visionary would mean Dylan Hunt can be equated to Ben Cartwright, the "cute" Trance would probably be Little Joe, and so on. Then there's the fact that all episodes (except maybe season finale/premier) are an hour or less and the episode is mostly self contained. Finally, you can add in the gun fights, which seem pretty much bang on to those moments when we see those neat "force-lances", and the horse'n'buggy stuff matches right up to the Andromeda's crew using the Eureka Maru to go off on whatever "mission" is necessary..

All in all, it looks like we're back to the *serial-western*, except in space. So I'd say what's really been done is to revert to the core of TV history - simple mindless entertainment with no strings attached.

Nothing good on US tv anymore... (1)

John Pfeiffer (454131) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605719)

That's it! No more... Anyone know a way to get Japanese TV on the US east coast? ^^;

btw, If you come across a copy of 'Hellsing', check it out! It kicks ass!

There is Still some good shows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2605720)

Sorry guys, but there is at least Farscape and Stargate Sg-1 i mean i used to be a startrek fan but it kinda get a bit too much now....i wanted to see the future and now they are going back to the past....they could have show the borg/federation war to come or the alliance of the romulan empire and the federation, whatever but why return to the past and break everything..... concerning Andromeda i didn t really like the first season but i do like the second one, a bit like i did with stargate, the story arc IS very important and they need to find their mark. Earth Final Conflict on the other hand had a very good first season...i don t even want to discuss the following ones.....

well these are my opinions anyway

books, books, back to books. (1)

MavEtJu (241979) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605725)

First to say, it's sad that they don't want to keep me waiting for the follow-up of previous weeks episodes which I can't afford to miss because each episode brings the series further in a web of entanglement and suspicion.
Short episodes which stand on itself, I can afford to miss them just like I can afford to miss half of the simpsons episodes: it doesn't matter if I don't know that something has happened, it will never be refered to again.

Secondly, the books regarding Star Trek (can't talk for the B5 books, haven't read any of them yet) are getting much and much better. It started with (please correct me if I'm wrong) the Invasion series (four pockets which had a similair topic but was spread over the old series, TNG, DS9 and Voyager series). After that you got more and more of these books which spanned over the series (Day of Honour, the Captains Table, the Domonion War etc)

Right now, I don't care about the single-book episodes, multi-book multi-series books are much better.

A note on Andromeda (1)

goatman.cx (536700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605727)

I'm glad that purple chick had her stupid prehensile tail amputated a few weeks ago, that thing was such a cheezy prop.

FarscapeFarscapeFarscape... (2, Insightful)

OctavianMH (61823) | more than 12 years ago | (#2605730)

(as I gingerly step onto my soapbox)

Apparently the poster hasn't really been watching all that sci-fi has to offer of late. Farscape has been and continues to be-

1. Very continuity driven, yet accessible through genuine humor. Enterprise has apparently been passing all of the inhabited planets with jokes on them. Farscape succeeds by making the continuity-heavy bits multi-parters (there've been 2, if memory serves, THREE PART episodes), and the less continuity-heavy parts character driven...so even if you're not quite sure what's going on, the interactions between crew members (whether they're pissed off with each other or having mad sex) makes up for it.

Ah yes, Stargate SG-1 gets continuity points as well. Great show. Nearly every episode feels like a movie in itself (okay, that's just because they're no commercials built in, and it has super high production values, but i'm not complaining!)

2. Full of well-acted changing characters. Emphasis on the _changing_. The only other show I can cite where characters change so dramatically and _believably_ is B5. It's such a joy to watch characters you love go through hell and back and come out the other end with scars that they keep with them for episodes and episodes.

3. Unafraid to push boundaries. Farscape, near the end of the 3rd season it is in currently, ran an episode that was almost entirely a cartoon--a looney toon, in fact. It was funny, and touching, even.

4. And on the subject of being touching. Call me what you like, but Farscape makes me cry. Pretty often. So there. B5 did it, but Andromeda? Too bad what potential _was_ there has just gone the way of the dodo. And voyager? Man would I have jumped for joy if Janeway had bitten it...

So that's all. I _hope_ the poster takes the time to look into Farscape...I like to think of myself as a pretty smart guy, and that I've seen enough crappy sci-fi to know that Farscape is pretty darn smart.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

Octavian
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