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Nvidia Geforce 4 (NV25) Information

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the driving-miss-pixels dept.

Hardware 351

msolnik writes: "nV News has a brief article about the long-awaited NV25-based video adapters. These graphics processors have similar capabilities compared to the XGPU, and are a lot more powerful than GeForce3 Ti500. Since they are manufactured using .13 micron technology, they will probably be clocked at very high levels."

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Gotta have the first post! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611530)

I hereby claim this first post for the Queen of Spain!

Re:Gotta have the first post! (-1)

Roto-Rooter Man (520267) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611580)

Please clear the spider egg sacks and the pus out of that hairy cunt.

Last time I fucked you, afterbirth and maggots fell out on my dick.

I think I see some termites munching on a petrified fetus skull in there.

-> Yo slut, it's time for a DEEP DOUCHE. <-

Yeah you should really pour some Drano down in there. Get that thick crust off the sides.

It's bad to keep tampons in that long. Four months -- that's too much.

Get in there and DOUCHE that vulva, honey.

Re:Gotta have the first post! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611713)

I hereby claim this Queen of Spain for my first penis!

In honor of Her Spanish Majesties' FP... (-1)

Retarded_One (518093) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611747)

I give to the Queen of Spain:

Some BOLD text

Some ITALICS text

Some true type, of course!!!!

A BULLET POINT for Her Majesty!

  1. Only the finest of indents will do!!


  • Another indent!!!!


Italics for milady!

All for the Queen of Spain!

Whats the quake 3 benchmarks? (0)

Cheetah86 (136854) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611532)

Who cares about the specs if we can't see some real life benchmarks?

Re:Whats the quake 3 benchmarks? (1)

SquierStrat (42516) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611611)

Generally most everyone cares. Particularly since this chip is still in development, benchmarks aren't exactly possible. This is not to mention that no one trusts manufacturer produced benchmarks to much (See: ATI) and at this point Quake 3 benchmarks (See : ATI).

The real question (1, Funny)

Cyclone66 (217347) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611533)

Will it be able to render Pengiuns under linux?

Yes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611550)

And it could render PengUIns too

Re:The real question (-1, Offtopic)

goatman.cx (536700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611586)

WTF?! This is fucking retarded! Funny, bullshit!

Re:The real question (1)

bytes256 (519140) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611703)

Just in a beowulf cluster operated by Cowboy Neal...of course you fucking idiot!

So? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611537)

Egg Troll is my hero. Please post a trolling guide so we can all be as good as you.

Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611538)

So... Will this mean GeForce 3's for under $200 in a year?

Ohh baby...

Re:Question (2)

fault0 (514452) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611555)

The GeForce 3 Ti 200's price is $199 already.

Re:Question (2)

dougmc (70836) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611605)

The GeForce 3 Ti 200's price is $199 already.
It was $150 - $50 rebate (final price $100 + tax) at Best Buy last friday if you got there at 5:30am or so so that you're first in line for the 7am opening. The 15 or 30 units that they had were sold out by 7:02am :\

Note to self: Next year, find out what's on sale before hand (techbargains.com works nicely), buy it the wednesday before at full price, then do a price match once it goes on sale at around 11am or so :)

Re:Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611700)

So now you can use binary-only accelerated kernel oops' that linus and his merry gang can't help you with because NVidia sucks.

you mean linux sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611746)

turd burglar

Re:Question (1)

JWhiton (215050) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611719)

They're even cheaper on Pricewatch [pricewatch.com] . If you don't mind getting some weird in-house brand, that is.

Last I checked (Sunday night), the lowest-priced GeForce3 Ti200 was only $137 plus shipping. Pretty spiffy for a video card that's almost as powerful as a card that retailed for $500 a few months ago.

3dfx... (2, Interesting)

DigitalEntropy (146564) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611539)

Does anyone know if nVidia has started using the technology that they acquired with the purchase of 3DFX? I know that 3DFX was working on some killer graphics routines and various chipsets before nVidia bought them out, and nVidia at the time was too far along with the GeForce 3 to integrate them. But supposedly they were going to use the technology in their next graphics chip.... which I assume to be the GeForce 4.

Re:3dfx... (1)

spankyofoz (445751) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611548)

NVidia's purchase of #DFX was in my opinion, more a cheap purchase of a struggling competitor to wipe them off the face of the earth, and maybe inherit one or two good ideas, rather than a cooperative purchase.

Re:3dfx... (2)

Angry Black Man (533969) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611562)

NVidia's purchase of #DFX was in my opinion, more a cheap purchase of a struggling competitor to wipe them off the face of the earth

Gigapixel/TDFX was already going out of business anyway. NVDA did not buy TDFX, they merely acquired their intellectual property, mainly numerous pages of research concerning anti-aliasing.

TDFX was dead anyway. nVidia did not buy them to "wipe them off the face of the earth," as that was already happening.

Re:3dfx... (1)

spankyofoz (445751) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611575)

The point I'm amking is they didnt try to rescue the company either, which with the NVidia millions would be easily accomplished.

This left quite a void next to NVidia at the top for quite a while, which only ATI is starting to fill now.

Re:3dfx... (2, Informative)

SquierStrat (42516) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611595)

ATI is no where near filling that void sir! Take a look at their drivers. Quite simply, they suck! Particularly the linux drivers. My apologies, but NVIDIA is the only company to have decent (speedwise) linux drivers on the market. I can't say that is true for stability, however, I have zero stability problems due to the drivers, although others have said otherwise. ATI's windows drivers, however are cripplingly unstable ( have been for many years too. ) Not to mention, the card/driver mixer is just behind NVIDIA as far as speed, and only gets ahead in FSAA benchmarks, which personally, I couldn't give a rip about. I want a card that runs stable and runs fast in Linux AND windows (shudder...) not one that runs stable in one OS and fairly fast on one, but hey, the image quality is good. If that was the case I'd have used ATI a long time ago.

Re:3dfx... (2, Funny)

dinivin (444905) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611621)

I want a card that runs stable and runs fast in Linux AND windows (shudder...)

Same here... Which is why I've settled on a Radeon 7500.

Dinivin

Re:3dfx... (3, Informative)

mz001b (122709) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611687)

nvidia's drivers under linux pretty much as fast as they are under windows. There are not open source, but they work very well. OpenGL apps are fast under linux with them.

Re:3dfx... (1)

SquierStrat (42516) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611753)

Err, not true. NVIDIA's linux drivers ARE plenty fast, but not nearly as fast as in windows. This is due to their using GLX...which means X windows which means SLOW. Direct hardware access or no, if you use X you're going to run slow.

Xig Summit Radeon drivers are top notch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611676)


There is another option. www.xig.com, makers
of Accelerated-X, have been working with ATI
(and many other pro/cad-3d cards, laptop chips, and some older 3d cards) for a long time.

Xig's drivers for ATI Radeons are quite good
and offer a real alternative to Nvidia that's
true to the linux community.

They support real OpenGL (from reference sources), direct hardware access, full VMWare support, hardware T+L, stereoscopic
viewing, multi-head...pretty much all the features of the Radeons are fully supported except for VIVO.

Currently, Radeons are supported up to the 7500. (8500 uses the new R200 chip, and they should release a driver for it soon -- you can bet it'll be released, and with all supported features, before Xfree86 has one)

Xfree86 CVS supports up to the Radeon 7500.

Xig is mostly a linux developer (they also
write drivers for FreeBSD, Solaris, and on Alpha and Sparc platforms) - so supporting them supports the Linux / Unix cause.

Re:Xig Summit Radeon drivers are top notch! (1)

SquierStrat (42516) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611759)

Aye, but, who wants to pay money for their card and for their drivers???? My regret for NVIDIA is that their drivers USE GLX...key in there is X...talks about a slowdown!

ATI could probably get better linux driver's if they'd jsut release ALL of the damned specs on their cards. How's NVIDIA no true to the linux community? Oh right their driver's aren't open-source. BFD! Gamers don't care! I don't care personally! It's their perogative. they'll never get shipped with X or the kernel, wah wah, big deal, they're fast, plenty stable and free as in beer.

Re:3dfx... (1)

vandan (151516) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611743)

What's up with the DRI drivers???
I find them VERY fast - more so than Windows (2000). I get 10% better FPS under Quake 3, and it just FEELS smoother - no slowdowns under heavy load. nVidia's driver have problems. It's fine if you install Redhat (or should I say Linux 7.1) and don't ever upgrade your kernel or X server, but for everyone else (ie real Linux users) there are some fairly sad compatibility problems with the nVidia drivers. They are still compiled against xfree86-4.0.2. They don't work with the kernel pre-emption patch. They are on-again / off-again with -ac patches. And with 2.5.0 opening, you can guarantee the compatibility problems will only widen.

Re:3dfx... (1)

SquierStrat (42516) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611766)

I have an upgraded kernel and X windows 4.1.0, and have never ONCE experienced the problems everyone else speaks, of with the NVIDIA drivers. Not to mention they are faster than all of the DRI drivers. Much much much faster.
NVIDIAs cards are gamer oriented. Not so-called "Real linux user" oriented!

Re:3dfx... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611722)

Well then 3dfx shouldn't have wasted all their money on these stupid tv commercials.

Re:3dfx... (-1, Troll)

goatman.cx (536700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611593)

You sir, are a karma whore.

Re:3dfx... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611640)

He didn't get any karma for that post, though, newbie. Maybe you should lurk for a while longer, and read the FAQ, before you try your hand at trolling. Doing otherwise just makes you look like an idiot.

Hey Idiot (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611706)

He karma whores all of the time, you stupid cunt. Maybe if you'd pull the cocks out of your eyeholes, you'd know that. He's a karma whore, and you're the motherfucking idiot, cockbreath. I win, you lose, cuntrag.

Re:3dfx... (4, Informative)

fault0 (514452) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611563)

Yeah, apparently they will:

from the article:

".. A Voodoo5 5500-esque Anti-Aliasing feature. The presumption is that the NV25 will bring a Rotated-Grid AA implementation.."

This is probably to compete with Ati's SmoothVision FSAA implementation, which is really quite slick. However, 3dfx was rumored to have really advanced FSAA implementations for their future Voodoo5 6000/6500 series. Perhaps the NV25 will include that.

Re:3dfx... (1)

DigitalEntropy (146564) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611579)

Indeed. I own a Voodoo5 5500, and the FSAA on it kicks some serious ass. My only problem with it is that there's no official XP drivers. I have to rely on flaky 'hacked' drivers. I've been holding out for the nVidia card which was going to have some of 3dfx's work, otherwise I'd pick myself up a Geforce 3.
On a side note, probably off-topic, but I for one would have paid anything to have a Voodoo5 6000. External power supply baby, aw yeah.

Re:3dfx... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611585)

There was a V5 6000 for sale on eBay a few weeks ago...

Re:3dfx... (2, Informative)

jason_watkins (310756) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611749)

negative

3dfx was trying to ski uphill with a set of gear that had been obsolete for some time. nVidia was no longer worried about the, rather about ATI and competing in the OEM deals. Buying 3dfx just gave them protection against someone else buying 3dfx's IP and starting patent litigation against them.

And the fact of the matter is, you don't know what 3dfx was working on, wheither it was "killer routines" or not. Gigapixels technology may have breathed some extra life into t-buffer, but it's hardware transform and programability that will be the forseeable future, 2 things 3dfx was not making much progress towards.

Look, I liked 3dfx as well. I replaced my rendition with a voodoo when there were exactly 3 games that ran on it. However, I don't let my fondness for 3dfx pull the wool over my eyes and convince me that they were somehow not doomed, were going to come back and do great things if only nasty nvidia hadn't bought them.

Remember, 3dfx chose to sell.

What will be the next big innovations? If someone can figure out how to get realisitc sizes of embeded dram, that'll be nice for fill rate. Some people might try heirarchical zbuffering, but that hasn't been a win for a while on most architectures. As vertex processing throughput approaches fillrate throughput, I expect to see things move to randomized splat samping, since it appears the best way to get logarithmic complexity vs number of primatives. I've not seen any other way to get realistic rendering times on datasets involving billions of polygons or more.

What I want (1, Interesting)

redcliffe (466773) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611541)

is a realtime raytracing chip. That would be cool, especially if it did radiosity and photon mapping.

Wait a minute.... (-1)

Frank White (515786) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611542)

If this is a consular ship, then where is the ambassador?

Re:Wait a minute.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611763)

i shot his ass, and hes buried is biggie small's casket..nigga was rapping bout blunts and bras and menage-a-trois, and sex in expensive cars.

finally!! (1)

cyberbob2010 (312049) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611544)

Finally, something to face the Radeon

Re:finally!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611557)

What are you talking about? The current Ti500 is equivalent to the latest Radeon speedwise. This is a next generation product that will blow away the Ti500 and the Radeon 8500.

Re:finally!! (2)

fault0 (514452) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611572)

In fact, the Radeon 8500 in most "correct" benchmarks, falls within the speed of the Ti 500 and Ti 200. It is _NOT_ faster than the Ti 500, at least with current drivers. In terms of pricing however, it seems pretty good, as it falls right within the price of the GeForce3 cards.

However, it's currently not the GeForce 3 killer that ATI had made it out to be.

Re:finally!! (2)

krogoth (134320) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611622)

I just want open source drivers and a card with reasonably high performance. I have a lot more X crashes with games than anywhere else using the nVidia drivers, so when it's time to upgrade the graphics card i'll look for something with Open Source drivers. It's nice of nVidia to make Linux drivers at all, but I'd prefer reliable drivers.

Re:finally!! (2)

alen (225700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611672)

That's weird. It works fine on my windows 2000 box. And I thought it was windows that was supposed to be unstable and linux perfectly stable.

Re:finally!! (2)

krogoth (134320) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611685)

They probably put more work into the windows drivers, which is part of the reason I wish the drivers were open source (the other part is that even if they put all the windows developers on the Linux drivers i'd still trust open source more).

Re:finally!! (1)

cyberbob2010 (312049) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611596)

thank you. I didn't know that.

Re:finally!! (1)

redcliffe (466773) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611567)

Except for the fact that the drivers are still closed source, but most people can live with that.

Tiny Little Item (5, Informative)

1alpha7 (192745) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611546)

In case you miss it 3/4 down the page:

NV25 Information

I was browsing nVidia's forum over @ Fools, and there was a link to Reactor Critical. Here's what they have to say about NV25.

Long-awaited NV25 based adapters. This graphics processor that have similar capabilities compared with XGPU is a lot more powerful than GeForce3 Ti500. Since it is manufactured using 0.13 microns technology, it has a lot of chances to be clocked at the very high levels. The GPU comes in January/February 2002, while professional boards should be available in the second quarter.

ELSA is going to launch two boards based on NV25GL processor, both supports two LCD monitors, though, we do not know whether there are two integrated TMDS transmitters or only one and the second is external.

NV25 that works on 275 MHz. 128 MB DDR SDRAM @ 250 MHz.
NV25 that works on 300 MHz. 128 MB DDR SDRAM @ 330 MHz.

So, this is what a high-end NV25 part *might* look like...

* Rumoured 6 Pixel pipelines
* Core freq: 300 MHz.
* Memory: 660 MHz. (eff) ~ 10.5 GB/sec BW, assuming they stay with 128-bit data paths.
* Supports TwinView
* Supports (finally) Hardware iDCT
* More powerful T&L unit, to include a second Vertex Shader
* Can't find the link, but there's a rumour stating that we can expect Voodoo5 5500-esque Anti-Aliasing feature. The presumption is that the NV25 will bring a Rotated-Grid AA implementation to the table.
* .13u Manufacturing process

It really does sound like a pretty amazing chip. I would be willing to bet we'll be hearing a lot more in the way of rumours as the New Year approaches.

Re:Tiny Little Item (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611623)

Yeah and always it will cost a great deal more than the last series of Geforce chips which cost 300 bucks. It would be nice if they tried to be cost effective instead of going for the high end.

Re:Tiny Little Item (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611664)

Cost effective? Try buying 1 year old technology if you want inexpensive. How much does a GForce2 go for right now? $100?

all your base are belong to us (0, Offtopic)

ctrammell (535741) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611657)

It you! hahaha

The Real Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611553)

I think the real question is:

When is it coming out? and How much?

Or perhaps: If I sell my soul to the devil, can I be sure that ATI won't be able to beat it for at least 18 months?

Re:The Real Question (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611733)

if you had a good look at this [goatse.cx] , you wouldn't beat it for at least 18 months.

GeForce 4? (1)

Gangis (310282) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611565)

While the specs look really excellent (Sorry, no ray-tracing accelleration ;), I must ask you one simple question...

Don't you think it's time they adopted a new family name for their newer cards? GeForce is kind of old-sounding now. I think it could use a new name, what do you think? Reply to this post with suggestions, please! :)

My friend Stigmata's suggestion: (2, Funny)

Gangis (310282) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611573)

[08:06p] <Gangis> GeForce 4?!?! Pleeeeeease, be original for once
[08:09p] <[stig]> they need to call it an AK47 or something
[08:09p] >[stig]> just so i say to my friends in school "Yeah so I picked up an AK47 the other day, its really powerful!"
[08:09p] <[stig]> in front of teachers of course

Re:My friend Stigmata's suggestion: (1)

ChodaBoy (97144) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611648)

So who's the mouth breather that moderated that one to funny?

Re:GeForce 4? (0)

magicslax (532351) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611578)

Mr. Speedypants XP - it's speedy, renders pants, and contains the magical letters "x" and "p."

It matches nicely with our XP cpu, dram, harddrive, monitor, hamburger....

Re:GeForce 4? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611581)

GeForce XP. If AMD can do it ...

Re:GeForce 4? (1)

Colin Bayer (313849) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611629)

How about "BottomlessMoneyPit"?

Re:GeForce 4? (1)

harvord (197507) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611636)

GeforceXP?

I could not stop myself.

Re:GeForce 4? (1)

SparkyMartin (206236) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611680)

FastLoad Cartridge for Windows Graphics?

Re:GeForce 4? (-1)

Retarded_One (518093) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611695)

The only funny comment on here, and it goes unmoderated. Shame.

I GHETTO-MOD you to +1, FUNNY

Re:GeForce 4? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611684)

They should call it, realexpensive!

eh? (1)

x136 (513282) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611566)

Is my sense of time totally off, or did the GeForce3 just come out a few months ago?

Stop the train, I want to get off.

Re:eh? (3, Interesting)

fault0 (514452) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611582)

nVidia became so sucessful because of it's short release schedule. They release new products two times a year, every 6 months.

This 6 months, the GeForce 3 Ti200/500 came out. Last 6 months ago, the GeForce 3 came out, etc...

This kind of release schedule is what made 3dfx, an once undisputed leader in 3d technology, lag so far behind. Consequently, it's also what has made Matrox not even really care about the 3d market.

Re:eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611681)

Consequently, it's also what has made Matrox not even really care about the 3d market.
Matrox were more sour grapes, really.

Re:eh? (1)

Sokie (60732) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611602)

nVidia's product development cycle has always been fast paced. They come out with a new GPU every 12 months and come out with a tweaked and upgraded version of that GPU 6 months later. Example: GeForce3 was a new GPU, GeForce3 Ti 200/500 was the tweak/upgrade ~6 months later. GeForce4 info coming out about now is nothing out of the ordinary for nVidia.

Re:eh? (3, Insightful)

hexix (9514) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611647)

Yeah but it's no big deal. You must get 2 year old hardware nice and cheap, seeing as all the new stuff is never even taken advantage of til its about 2 years old.

nVidia sucks my schlong (-1, Offtopic)

goatman.cx (536700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611598)

my schlong 8=====D ( ( ) nVidia

The Real Question Pt. 2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611601)

Regardless of what that other person thinks, *I* think the REAL question is,

Can you imagine a beowulf cluster of these?

Do we have to upgrade every month now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611606)

SLOW DOWN!

I JUST bought my Geforce 3, then a month later they have the Geforce 3Ti....now they're talking Geforce 4?

What's this? Why not SLOW down on the advancement just a hair. Just a smidgeon.

penile implants (-1, Offtopic)

goatman.cx (536700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611609)

"professional gamers" are the scum of the earth, especially, gamers that do "editorials" and "articles" for "legitimate review outlets." What a crock of shit. Go to hell.

On the subject of gaming.... (1, Offtopic)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611618)


At the risk of being off-topic (putting on flame retardant suit) The Linux Game Tome (happypenguin.org) has been down for a few weeks, and I haven't seen any mention of why.

Does anybody know what the story is? They leave a big vacuum if they are gone. I think it's worth a mention somewhere.

Re:On the subject of gaming.... (2)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611666)

The Linux Game Tome (happypenguin.org) has been down for a few weeks, and I haven't seen any mention of why.

This isn't really off-topic. The subject is gaming video cards. When a source for those games disappears, the question is worth asking.

Re:On the subject of gaming.... (1, Offtopic)

SubtleNuance (184325) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611692)

The Linux Game Tome (happypenguin.org) has been down for a few weeks, and I haven't seen any mention of why.

This isn't really off-topic. The subject is gaming video cards. When a source for those games disappears, the question is worth asking.


Ummm isnt it a little stupid using your +1 to tell someone how and why THEY were off topic? Isnt it like cutting off your nose to spite your face?

moron.

Re:On the subject of gaming.... (1, Offtopic)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611734)



SubtleNuance:


Seeing that you've never scored over a 2 on any post you've ever submitted, I find it ironic you're telling me how to post.

I want to know what happened to a gaming site. The subject is related to gaming. Nobody else has asked about happypenguin.org. Slashdot hasn't had shit to say about Linux Game Tome and it's been down for weeks now.

I've read some of the Un-American shit [slashdot.org] you've written, SubtleNuance. So, I'll use a little karma here and tell you to go fuck yourself. Troll.

Power without Application? (2, Troll)

Grip3n (470031) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611627)

It's amazing to see NVidia's dedication to forwarding their technology and continually improving a seemingly perfect line of cards, but with all this power, are we running out of an application to utilize this power?

I have a 800 Duron system with a Geforce 2 MX. It plays any new game at 1152x968 flawlessly. The GeForce 3 can pump out perfect refresh rates at even higher resolutions on any of the newest and graphical intensive game available today. There simply is no challenge, whereas years ago there was always room to improve - refresh rates, resolution, bit colour, texture size, etc.

Does improvement in the 2000's merely mean higher resolutions? If so, I don't want it. On average, most consumer level monitors are 17" and support a max resolution of 1280x1024. These new cards can easily support it flawlessly, so there lacks any point in investing a new card, and I see no point in running Max Payne, for example, at 4800x3600 resolution.

There is no "killer app" available today - even with the GeForce 3 being out for some time now - that will even begin to offer these cards a challenge, and with a GeForce 4 on the way, will NVidia be able to intise buyers into believing they need 300fps at 4800x3600 resolution? In the end, I begin to wonder if NVidia is beginning to find itself in a tough corner. Their hardware is revolutionary, but lacks any practical application.

Re:Power without Application? (3, Insightful)

alen (225700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611641)

That's what they said about the Voodoo2, the P2 chips and almost every new cpu that comes out. Until a game I play has real time 3d graphics that are totally lifelike we're not there yet. And I mean every little pore on the characters faces is individually bump mapped and rendered and real arm movement.

The enviroments still look crappy. It's just large polygons with painted edges. And were no where near enviroments that react realistically to your actions.

Re:Power without Application? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611678)

What are you talking about? You know how long it would take to make a game with that much detail? The developers would have to spend so much time on eye candy that making a fun game would be an afterthought. Who cares about graphics as long as it is fun.

Re:Power without Application? (1)

alen (225700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611748)

Well the pre-rendered cut scenes look pretty goo now. How about making in game graphics as good as the cutscenes.

Re:Power without Application? (2)

reaper20 (23396) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611645)

I have the same setup as you .. as of right now, I don't think there is a killer app, I just follow The Carmack's mighty upgrade plan .... upgrade at the release of every new id game. :)

So Doom3 = new card for me.

Re:Power without Application? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611682)

Unreal Warfare, the new licenseable engine from the people that brought you UT and Unreal, brings an Athlon 1.4 GHz / GeForce3 to its knees. Sure, it is a game engine still in flux, with content that may need to be optimized.

Developers will continually find ways to make these boards work. The game production pipeline is getting slower, thats all.

Re:Power without Application? (1)

bwindle2 (519558) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611723)

Try Ghost Recon. On my XP1600 (KT266A mobo) with 512mb DDR ram, and a GeForce 2 MX 400, Ghost Recon is choppy on anything above 640x480. Even if nothing uses it *now*, in the future things will use it. However, if there simply isn't a card fast enough to handle the graphics, then some developers will be satisified to never push the envelope.

Re:Power without Application? (1)

SumDeusExMachina (318037) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611725)

If you don't have it already, go out and buy Max Payne. I'm running a 1.4Ghz Athlon processor with DDR SDRAM and a GeForce3, and even then the framerate gets a little choppy with all graphics options on full throttle (4-pass AA, anisotropic filtering, 1024x768@32bit). And I'll tell you something else: despite the fact that Max Payne is graphically stunning in this day and age of live-rendered action games, it looks like crap compared to digitally-generated movies like Final Fantasy.

Just remember, every time you play a game, you have to realize that a lot of artists had to make an effort to reduce the graphical detail and limit the polygon count. If you lose sight of this, then of course you can always go out and see a CGI movie that will probably be in theaters (there's always one). Then compare the realism there with the games you play at home. This way you will get an idea of how far PC hardware has to go before you can even begin to question whether it has superfluous amounts of power.

Re:Power without Application? (1)

Twillerror (536681) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611726)

Well I do believe that most X-box games have been optimized for this chip.

It would also seem that porting an X-box game to the PC ( and vice versa ) would be fairly simple.
Maybe some menu changes and things, but it's all directX underneath.

Some of the X-box games look fabulous. Especially the football one ( I think it's NFL Fever 2001 ), these would look and run even better on a PC that has faster memory, and or cpus.

But your right, we probably won't see games for a while that truely harness the power, but Doom 3 should be the start of something more then just beefed up quake 2 like engines. I hope by the time it comes out that it will be fully optimized for the new vertex shaders. I also hope that Nvida will license the use of their language so that ATI, and others can compete.

-1 dumb ass; Um... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611740)

... We'll never need more than 640 KB of RAM either (sorry, all you BillG apologists).

This is part of the upward curve that will bring us into the TRUE information age. We'll need at LEAST 30 TB RAM and 50 GHtz once the holographic projectors become consumer level electronics.

I figure it'll be about 2012. Maybe 2015, but no later.

Re:Power without Application? (2, Interesting)

scriber (89211) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611741)

I fail to see what's so revolutionary about their hardware. They're basically building huge DSP-style chips where much of the operation is hardcoded for better optimization. If chips continue to do this, of course you're going to see games struggle to catch up. The 3D graphics market seems to be doing very little that's revolutionary--just bringing the chips up to the process limitations of transistor size and speed.

The problem with the current model is that the graphics card itself isn't expected to have any intelligence of its own. It's simply expected to render as much as possible in as little time as it can. Right now, we're expected to pass millions of triangles to the card to render, as well megabytes of textures to slap on them as fast as possible. Imagine if instead, the developer handed the graphics card a mathematical description of the model, and the chip did the rest, filling in details based on fractal algorithms. Instead of applying a bumpy looking texture to a wall, you could make the wall itself bumpy with potentially infinite detail. That would be revolutionary, and would require incredible engineering to design.

Saying the current crop of graphics chips are revolutionary is like denying that SGI ever designed a Reality Engine in the first place. Just because greater integration allows it to be insanely fast doesn't mean it's anything really that new. NVidia's going to have to do something pretty amazing to keep from getting blown away when something truly revolutionary comes around.

Re:Power without Application? (2)

hyoo (155460) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611742)

There are actually people who use 3D cards for things other than gaming. Even still, we haven't reached a point where 3D cards are sufficient for gaming.

I don't think that the purpose of newer video cards is to allow someone to run at higher resolution. Sure it is a byproduct of having a faster card, but the main goal is to push more detail at the lower resolutions. I'd rather play a game that only ran at 640x480 but had realistic lighting and was indistinguishable from a TV broadcast, than a game that looked like Q3 but jacked up to 64000x48000

I'd like to know what games play 'flawlessly' at 1152x968 on a GeForce2 MX. I have a GF2 GTS Ultra with 2x1.5 GHz PIV (win2k) and have troubles maintaining 60 fps at 800x600 for games like RTCW, and Ghost Recon with full-detail (the way these games should be played). Sure QIII runs solid, but I don't consider that a new game. IMHO, gaming is horrible at anything less than 60fps and disabling vsync is ugly.

Re:Power without Application? (2)

tshak (173364) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611745)

Well, you obviously haven't played Ghost Recon. :) I have a 1.2Ghz Athlon, a GF3 Ti200, and it runs at a mere 30fps with Quincunx FSAA at 1280x1024. It looks AWESOME, but I could use 50% more FPS. With Unreal2 coming out, even the GF3's are going to be taxed. I would imagine that by the time the GF4's actually come out, and are below $300, that there will be games that will take advantage of it.

Re:Power without Application? (5, Insightful)

Namarrgon (105036) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611771)

There's always one, isn't there...

One good reason to improve speed is simply better AA. Bet your card still shows those unsightly jaggies? Textures shimmer as they pass by, moire on the staircase, distant telegraph poles popping in & out of existance? Turn on 4-sample AA. Oh dear, now it's too slow. But not on my GF3, with anisotropic filtering turned up. I just wish I could do more than 4 samples.

Want more realism? Bump mapping everywhere? Gloss maps? More translucent surfaces? Detail & dirt maps? Specular highlights? More objects in the scene (i.e. more overdraw)? Guess you're going to need a lot more fillrate too.

Here's some more reasons, this time for better polygon handling - real-looking trees. Smooth, organic surfaces. Huge, detailed outdoor scenes that aren't always hidden by that strange vertical fog. Realtime, dynamic shadow volumes. And of course, accurate reflections. If you want to see the trees reflecting in the water, you have to render all those polygons twice. To see all the buildings in your nice shiny car, a cubic environment map is a good way, but requires the entire scene to be rendered six times!

And we haven't even started getting to the interesting stuff. Anisotropic pixel shaders, vertex shaders for displacement mapping or nice rippled reflections. Overbright textures for really nice highlights (or for running realtime Renderman shaders :-) Maybe some really computation-heavy stuff - ray traced surfaces, realtime radiosity solutions or global illumination.

Not enough? I'd like that all in stereovision too, please. Better double that workload again. Or perhaps on each wall of an immersive room? 5x more rendering.

DOA3 looks really, really nice on my Xbox, but I can't help thinking how much better it'd be at 1600x1200 with AA. Or with some of the other refinements I've mentioned above. Sadly, the hardware still isn't there yet...

Believe me, the field of 3D has a lot of room to grow yet.

possible .13 chip delay (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611633)

according to the inquirer [theinquirer.net] , nvidia is having problems with the foundry that supplies its' chips

The obligatory (0)

Shelled (81123) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611696)

damn, and I just finished installing my new Ge3 Ti200!

Important Information For Slashdot Users (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2611699)

Important Information For Slashdot Users

It has come to my attention that many of the Slashdot editors engage in homosexual activities. CmdrTaco is one such person who shares in this, and is often referred to as the leader of a purely gay cult created for the worship and the spreading of Tacosnotting beliefs and values. For further information on Tacosnotting please refer to George WIPO Bush's Taco-Snotting FAQ which can be easily found by searching for the Slashdot journal of George WIPO Bush or by looking in the comments of Slashdot articles (usually modded -1).

It has also come to my attention that CmdrTaco has other interests besides homosexuality (believe it or not). One such interest includes a budding music career with a song titled "Wide Anus". The details are very sketchy on this topic but all i know are that besides the vocals of CmdrTaco, it also includes Slashdot editors Timothy and CowboyNeal with various references to others involved in this homosexual cult. One such puzzling oddity is the inclusion of Pamela Lee in the song. If anyone has any information on this specific topic, please post it in under this message in the Slashdot comments. There has been no release date stated for this song or which record label it will be produced under. I believe CmdrTaco is planning to set up his own label, Taco-Snotting Records, with the intention of releasing the song on a cd-single with various remixes as soon as possible to catch the current popularity of this Taco-Snotting fad. Various remixes will include the "Extra Jizz" and the "Non-Stop Hip Hop" versions.

Through a good, non-homosexual friend of mine I have recieved a copy of the lyrics to the Wide Anus musical composition. Included at the end of this post is a speical tribute ending written by yours truely. Perhaps CmdrTaco will ask me to provide the vocals for this ending. Please read the lyrics (they have been bolded) and share your comments and disgust. Thank-you.

Hi, my name is what?
My name is who?
My name is Wide Anus
Hi, my name is huh?
My name is what?
My name is the fudgepacker
Hi, my name is what?
My name is who? (Excuse me)
My name is the nutlicker
Hi, my name is what? (Can I have the attention of your ass?)
My name is who?
My name is the buttsniffer

Hi, kids do you like Anus?
I let Linus Torvalds fill up my butt for a chance to be famous (Uh huh)
Wanna copy me and do exactly like I did? (Yeah)
Try Taco-Snotting and get your butt pumped out like I did?
My brains dead weight
I'm tryin to get my head straight
But I can't figure out
Which Slashdot user I wanna impregnate
Timothy said, "CmdrTaco you a cutie" (Uh huh)
"I'll give you a deal, let me up in that booty" (OK!)
Well since age 12 I felt like I'm someone else
Cause I choked my original self Taco-Snotting him (Yup)
Got pissed off and ripped Pamela Lee's tits off
She don't know how to do Chris D
I'd suck his dick off

Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus it gets tapped dawg
Hi, my anus (Excuse me)
My anus
My anus every now and then gets plugged up
Hi, my anus (Can I have the attention of your ass?)
My anus
My anus is occasionally reamed out
Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus really needs to be filled up

My boss wanted to fire me yesterday
I told him to take his pants off, hooked him up, he let me slide
I pinched his ass
He winked at me
He chased me around the desk
I told him come and get me
Walked in the strip club
Had my jacket zipped up
Flashed the bartender
And I tried to feel his dick up
Extra-terestrial runnin over pedestrians
In a space ship while they screamin at me
Let's just be friends!
99% of my life I was lied to
I just found out my Mom screws more guys than I do (Damn)
I told her I'd grow up to be a famous Taco-Snotter
She met CowboyNeal I couldn't believe it when he slapped her
You know you blew up when the women rush the stands
And try to touch your hands
But I need me a man
This guy at Gay Al's strip club asked for my autograph (Dude can I get your
autograph?)
So I signed it Dear Alan Cox, thanks for the support
Nice ass!

Hi, my name is huh?
My name is who? (Excuse me)
My name is (They call me the pore plugger)
Hi, my name is what?
My name is who?
My name is the inch itcher (Excuse me)
One of Slashdot's gay boys
They call me the butt itcher
Hi, my name is what?
My name is who?
My name is (I've been called Hemos' butt boy)

Stop the tape this gaylord needs to be locked away (Get him)
Cliff don't just stand there operate
Or feel up my balls and buttcheeks
Anal lube got my ass greasy for weeks
Stick your manhood between my cheeks (Yup)
Am I coming or going
I can barely decide
I just drank a pint of semen
Dare me to drive? (Go ahead)
All my life I was very deprived
CowboyNeal's butt is too sexy to hide
Take your pants off Neal I don't mind
Clothes rip like the incredible Hulk
I Taco-Snot when I talk
I do any guy that walks
When I was little I used to get so hungry I would throw fits
Sometimes I sit and wish Hemos had a set of tits
CowboyNeal: "Get behind me CmdrTaco and grab me by my hips"
If I do that then I can't kiss you on your lips
By the way if you see my Dad
Ask him if he seen my spread in Gay Al's porno mag

Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus gets tapped up
Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus it's always getting plugged up
Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus occasionally reamed out
My anus well he needs to be filled up


Your anus
Your anus
Your anus is always getting plugged
Your anus
Your anus
Your anus is always getting stuffed
You wanna diss us?
We don't even know you you little bitch
You wanna sit there and diss us?
You little bitch I'll slap your face off
That's what happens when you go up against the Slashdot Trolls trick
You little bitch (Laughs)
Wide Anus!

LCD Tangent (1)

TheSHAD0W (258774) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611731)

Yes, I know this is off-topic, but I'd really like to know... I'm going off on a tangent from the new cards' support of LCD monitors.

Well, from what I've seen, it's not WORTH having high-end cards support LCD monitors -- because so far as I know, having a fast refresh rate on those monitors isn't worthwhile. The Viewsonic LCD I tried left nice ghost images and trails from bright objects.

But perhaps Viewsonic doesn't use top-performing LCD displays... Would anyone care to recommend an LCD monitor that's worth playing games on?

Re:LCD Tangent (2)

An Ominous Coward (13324) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611757)

Planar and SGI. Even FPS games like Tribes 2 run on Planars without ghosting.

Re:LCD Tangent (2)

rtaylor (70602) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611767)

Not entirely sure about LG's LCDs, but if they're anything like the CRTs they sell then it's probably some of the best around.

Re:LCD Tangent (3, Informative)

Jeffrey Baker (6191) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611774)

Yeah you might say that Viewsonic's LCDs are not up to scratch. Take a side-by-side comparison between them and a Samsung screen. I don't know who makes the actual LCD, but Samsung's monitors look vastly better than Viewsonic's.

Of course, you'll pay real money for the Samsung, but I don't know anyone else selling a 24" LCD monitor these days.

Will ATI even bother? (1)

A_Non_Moose (413034) | more than 12 years ago | (#2611769)

Heck, they are just now getting the drivers to implement the "whiz bang features" and Nvidia has a GF4 in the works.

At least I'll be able to afford the GF3 when I build my next system, there is that.

ATI has some serious work ahead of it to stay in the game. But If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it Quack(.exe)'s like a duck too.

Heh, competition is good, n'est pas?
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