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Is the Internet Shutting Out Independent Players?

Cliff posted more than 12 years ago | from the routing-table-roulette dept.

The Internet 357

ikekrull asks: "After looking to see how I could set up my company's LAN to be multi-homed ? , I found that it would be next-to-impossible for me to do this. 'Providerless' IP addresses are no longer allocated to anybody in this part of the world (New Zealand) by APNIC ? , unless you meet requirements (financial and political) that are pretty much unmeetable by anyone but a large ISP. Does this put control of the entire internet further and further into the hands of large corporate players, and and is anyone particularly interested in changing this situation?"

"ISPs aren't advertizing routes for competing ISPs, and since IP blocks are heavily filtered upstream, this won't do much good anyway. The reasons for this are clear (Routing table growth was getting way out of hand), hence the introduction of CIDR ? , and the allocation of IPs to ISPs, with a resulting lockout on availability of routable IP space to individuals or smaller groups.

With the availabilty of IPv6, and the cost of RAM, I find it somewhat hard to believe that either IP address blocks are scarce, or that the size of routing tables are unmanageable any more. This might have been true with an 8MB Cisco 10 years ago, but surely it would be a negligible cost to put 1-2GB of RAM on even a reasonably budget router at todays prices.

Obviously, IPV6 isn't really here yet, but i would like to think that when (if) it arrives, we will see a more open routing system.

Is anybody working on returning some kind of equal standing to 'the little guys' when it comes to internet routing infrastructure, and how a more 'open' system could work in practice on tomorrow's (or today's) internet?"

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357 comments

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Interesting article (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637085)

And First Post!

Mo Money Mo Money Mo Money (-1, Offtopic)

Aqua OS X (458522) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637099)

God money sucks.

You can buy multi-homed connections. (2, Flamebait)

sulli (195030) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637101)

At least in the states - my employer (AT&T) offers multi-homed and backup connections at T1 speed and above. (Routing is via BGP4.) You need to accept IPs from one ISP or another, so they're not really "yours," but it still works. I presume Aussie ISPs do the same thing, but I may be wrong.

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637115)

lousy move - advertising you work for AT&T - prepare for flame wars from the trolls

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637416)

Hey, full disclosure and all. It's on my web page anyway, anyone can figure it out. Flame away!

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637138)

AT&T - "at least they're not Verizon". *sigh*

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (4, Funny)

FatRatBastard (7583) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637143)

You just called a Kiwi an Aussie... [gulp] its going to get mighty ugly ;)

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (3, Funny)

barnaclebarnes (85340) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637186)

Australia is New Zealands West Island. get it right. ;)

'Just how much can Koala Bear'

crack pipe and pot.. again?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637377)

This is a TROLL message, not a FUNNY one, Mr. (stoned) moderator

Re:crack pipe and pot.. again?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637398)

It is a FUNNY TROLL, butthead AC. Get it together.

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (2, Informative)

coko (512615) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637147)

it is indeed difficult to obtain your own "private" block, but you can definetely become multi-homed using non-portable block(s) from one of your ISPs. Just make sure you notify all your upstream providers of the netblocks you have been assigned, that way they will not be filtered by BGP ACLs..

jorge

Same with most Tier-1 providers (2)

13013dobbs (113910) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637199)

This is true with most tier1 providers. Is this just an .au thing?

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (2, Insightful)

Brainless (18015) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637331)

The company I work for has IP's assigned from a few of the major US networks (CW, UUNet, etc) and we have BGP4 to allow any of the IP's assigned to us to use any of our backbones. This can cause problems with peering of backbone providers and has caused a few headaches here.

CW recently changed their structure so you can tell them how to advertise your networks to their peers. This resolves most of the problems we have had with multi-homing.

Keep in mind we are a fairly small network with under 100 routing/switching devices on our network. So to say it can not be done means it is time to hire a new network admin.

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637335)

Important message below. Take the time to read it, in its entirety, to understand how slashdot works, and why you need to moderate.


In an effort to restore slashdot [slashdot.org] to it's previous level of quality, I've begun a two step process. The first step is a determined effort to point out, and mod down, all obvious karma whores and trolls. The second step is to rid this site of Jon Katz. The job is large, but not impossible.

This poster obviously does not care about the topic, rather he (or she, perhaps), cares only about inflating karma, and to do so, this person has posted absolute crap.

What qualifies as crap on slashdot? Well, quite honestly, about half of the comments ranked above 2.

One way to easily spot a karma whore attempt, is to look for an obvious, but pathetic, post of linux superiority. A linux karma whore will often attempt to point out that linux is the best for job x, even though there may be, and probably are, better alternatives, such as Microsoft for desktops and FreeBSD for servers. These points will be ignored by linux karma whores, as pointing this out will not ensure the positive moderation they desire.

Another method for spotting karma whores is to look for comments posting, verbatim, something stated in the article, or in the editor's summary. While this often includes italicizing the quote, this is frequently a ploy to show that the person read the article, even though it's more likely the person only skimmed to find a comment worth repeating. Additional signs of the repetitive karma whore are: commentary on a quote that says nothing, "mirroring" an article that is not slashdotted, or pointing to google's cache. Also be careful before moderating up posts which link to obviously related sites: karma whores occasionally search popular search engines [google.com] to find related stories in an effort to gain more karma.

The third type of karma whore, one that very often succeeds on slashdot, is the sympathy whore. A sympathy whore often tries to gain karma by appealing to the moderator's sense of decency, either with a story about how they were unfairly fired, perhaps how they were unfairly persecuted, or occasionally how main stream capitalism is trampling on a sense of global decency. The latter tends to link common, benine events to horrific events of the past, making unfair generalizations and calling for action on behalf of a charity rather than carrying on with one's life. Do not let your heart be fooled into thinking that they are genuine: the sympathy whores want nothing more than karma.

Why would someone try to whore karma? Well, the simple answer is that everyone wants to feel smart, or popular. Many posters on slashdot describe themselves as nerds or geeks, societal outcasts. Posting to slashdot is their only true sense of community, and they view karma as a measure of popularity or status. Others karma whore to try to increase revenue and traffic to their own websites. Frequent marks of traffic whores are links in the posts that match the user's homepage, or links to hardware reviews on small sites, where links to purchase the hardware occupy the bottom half of the review. Again, do not let these subtle traffic whores fool you.

Now, turning our attention to Mr. Jon Katz. While he may possess some talents as a writer, his technical knowledge is seriously lacking. Furthermore, his credibility as a journalist is next to zero following his Afghanistan fiasco. [slashdot.org] . He also has nothing to do with open source, linux, or free software in general: thus, much like kuro5hin [kuro5hin.org] , he no longer fits in OSDN's [osdn.com] mission statement. It is for this reason that we must finish what we started [slashdot.org] and get rid of Jon Katz [slashdot.org] .

With these basic guidelines in mind, go out and moderate. Realize that many of the higher moderated comments are whores, and mod them back down. In an effort to increase the quality of comments, try to mod down no more than 3 posts in a given session ; use your remaining points to moderate some users UP. This ensures that not only are karma whores eliminated but that valid posts are acknowledged.

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637372)

Somehow i think the `read rest of comment` link isnt going to get clicked on - time to get a life?

Re:You can buy multi-homed connections. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637389)

[Back to the living room, ROGERS gets the tape.]

ROGERS
Now when I eat peanut butter, I'll know about some of the people who helped to make it.

McFEELY
It takes people to make practically everything, doesn't it.

ROGERS
Yes, that's why so many people go to work.

McFEELY
I have my speedy delivery work, and you do you're television programs.

ROGERS
Yeah, that's right. Takes people to make all sorts of things.

McFEELY
Away, and at home, too. I uh, better get back to my speedy deliveries, I have more pickups and deliveries.

ROGERS
Good, would you mind taking that back to the library?

McFEELY
I'll do it, if you, will, sign right here on the dotted line for the pickup and delivery. [getting clipboard out of his sack]

ROGERS
[signing] Of course. I appreciate your work, Mr. McFeely.

McFEELY
An' I appreciate your business. You're one of the ones who pays Right Away, an' it certainly helps us!

ROGERS
[walking with McFEELY to door] Please give my best to Mrs. McFeely.

McFEELY
I'llll do that, we'll seeee you around the neighborhood.

ROGERS
Thank you again.

McFEELY
You're welcome! Speedy Delivery. [leaves with a wave]

ROGERS
Bye. [shuts door and turns to us, stopping at the bottom of the stairs] Isn't that interesting? Seeing how people make things like peanut butter? Of course most of it depends on growing the right kind of peanuts, an' finding the best ways of using them. Let's have some make-believe. [sits by trolley area]

[Trolley's theme music as Trolley comes out the wall and around the bend, stopping by ROGERS, tooting.]

ROGERS
(Hi Trolley.)
[to us] There's a factory in the Neighborhood of Make-Believe, that we often think about. Do you know who it is who manages that factory? Cornflake S. Pecially. An' do you know what he usually manufactures? Rocking Chairs, that he calls, "Rockits." Why don't we make-believe something about Corny and his factory today? As the trolley goes into the Neighborhood of Make-Believe.

Just make one up. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637103)


Here - 217.53.98.174 - doesn't seem to be responding; use that one.

Just make one up (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637188)

64.28.67.150 is a better choice.

Re:Just make one up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637280)

Use it or lose it for IP addresses - I like this idea a lot.

Re:Just make one up. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637384)

ALL YOUR 192.168.X.X is mine!

Time to get rid of jon katz (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637107)

This site is losing all credibility quickly.

Stories about people in Afganistan who dig up commodores and then download / watch divx movies have killed off every last shred of believability this haven for anti-ms zealots ever had.

It is time to get rid of katz [slashdot.org]

==

This comment is licensed under the BSD license. Feel free to distribute:
<br>
This site is losing all credibility quickly.
<br>
Stories about people in Afganistan who dig up commodores and then download / watch divx movies have killed off every last shred of believability this haven for anti-ms zealots ever had.
<br>
It is time to get rid of <a href="http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=98/11/16/ 184223&mode=thread">katz</a><br>

Re:Time to get rid of jon katz (0, Troll)

recursiv (324497) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637192)

Insightful? This story has absolutely nothing to do with Jon Katz.

Re:Time to get rid of jon katz (0, Offtopic)

talesout (179672) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637235)

True, but bashing Katz is always insightful. The true test of one's intelligence is in whether or not they agree with Katz.

Re:Time to get rid of jon katz (0, Offtopic)

gazbo (517111) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637310)

No, but the usual crappy Katz bashing has been replaced by a more directed assault on his journalistic integrity (or lack of) Did you read that Afghanistan article? If you had you would realise just why Katz needs to be slapped.

Really, that story was made up bollocks from the start.

Oh, I'm not denying that the post should be marked off-topic, but you really should read the Catz article in question (sorry, no link) and then you'll realise why somebody gave it Insightful. And the Troll mod was totally unjustified.

I'm off to dig up the ZX Spectrum I left buried and install the SETI client while cracking MD5 hashes. Oh, sorry, I thought I lived in Afghanistan for a moment.

Moderators: This post is off-topic, not troll, flamebait, or overrated. Please moderate accordingly.

Re:Time to get rid of jon katz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637404)

here [slashdot.org]
...

This site is losing all credibility quickly.

Stories about people in Afganistan who dig up commodores and then download / watch divx movies have killed off every last shred of believability this haven for anti-ms zealots ever had.

It is time to get rid of katz [slashdot.org]

Re:Time to get rid of jon katz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637240)

Just use the KatzFilter.

be careful, moderators... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637112)

Not sure if this will be first post, but it is important to note that there are quite a few trolls, with user #s in the 500,000s that are posting blatant whoring posts in order to amass huge amounts of karma...for what? i don't know.

These posts tend to be high on opinion, or "my friend says...", or "during my work at company X, i noticed", but generally low on real content.
They also tend to have www.slashdot.org as the URL for their user info.

If the troll's got something useful to say, then mod them up, but watch out for these posts! if in doubt, check the posting history...one example of this new type of troll is Walter Bell, who says he works at NASA...

Re:be careful, moderators... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637132)

for more information, read this comment [slashdot.org] and it's replies.

[http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=24136&cid=2 61 2323]

Re:be careful, moderators... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637161)

heh, that was one of mine...

you might also want to read this:

In an effort to restore slashdot [slashdot.org] [slashdot.org] to it's previous level of quality, I've begun an effort to point out, and mod down, all obvious karma whores and trolls. The job is large, but not impossible.

This poster obviously does not care about the topic, rather he (or she, perhaps), cares only about inflating karma, and to do so, this person has posted absolute crap.

What qualifies as crap on slashdot? Well, quite honestly, about half of the comments ranked above 2.

One way to easily spot a karma whore attempt, is to look for an obvious, but pathetic, post of linux superiority. A linux karma whore will often attempt to point out that linux is the best for job x, even though there may be, and probably are, better alternatives, such as Microsoft for desktops and FreeBSD for servers. These points will be ignored by linux karma whores, as pointing this out will not ensure the positive moderation they desire.

Another method for spotting karma whores is to look for comments posting, verbatim, something stated in the article, or in the editor's summary. While this often includes italicizing the quote, this is frequently a ploy to show that the person read the article, even though it's more likely the person only skimmed to find a comment worth repeating. Additional signs of the repetitive karma whore are: commentary on a quote that says nothing, "mirroring" an article that is not slashdotted, or pointing to google's cache. Also be careful before moderating up posts which link to obviously related sites: karma whores occasionally search popular search engines [google.com] [google.com] to find related stories in an effort to gain more karma.

The third type of karma whore, one that very often succeeds on slashdot, is the sympathy whore. A sympathy whore often tries to gain karma by appealing to the moderator's sense of decency, either with a story about how they were unfairly fired, perhaps how they were unfairly persecuted, or occasionally how main stream capitalism is trampling on a sense of global decency. The latter tends to link common, benine events to horrific events of the past, making unfair generalizations and calling for action on behalf of a charity rather than carrying on with one's life. Do not let your heart be fooled into thinking that they are genuine: the sympathy whores want nothing more than karma.

Why would someone try to whore karma? Well, the simple answer is that everyone wants to feel smart, or popular. Many posters on slashdot describe themselves as nerds or geeks, societal outcasts. Posting to slashdot is their only true sense of community, and they view karma as a measure of popularity or status. Others karma whore to try to increase revenue and traffic to their own websites. Frequent marks of traffic whores are links in the posts that match the user's homepage, or links to hardware reviews on small sites, where links to purchase the hardware occupy the bottom half of the review. Again, do not let these subtle traffic whores fool you.

With these basic guidelines in mind, go out and moderate. Realize that many of the higher moderated comments are whores, and mod them back down. In an effort to increase the quality of comments, try to mod down no more than 3 posts in a given session ; use your remaining points to moderate some users UP. This ensures that not only are karma whores eliminated but that valid posts are acknowledged.

Re:be careful, moderators... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637206)

God damn. I thought I had no life!

Re:be careful, moderators... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637262)

you probably don't.

Re:be careful, moderators... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637150)

I like the Walter Bell troll, he (?) seems to be quite good at what he (?) does. Also, Rosco P. Coltrane is making similar advances these days. Personally, I suspect that they are both new accounts of the person behind faulty_dreamer. But that is suspicion only, not a confirmed fact.

But you weren't the only one to notice the laughable NASA email address for the Bell troll...

I'm not here, this isn't happening (-1, Offtopic)

Faulty Dreamer (259659) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637178)

It's not me.

I am only out to bust Walter and the other new "old-school" trolls' asses.

Plus, the occasional crapflood and ascii art at opportune times ;)

Re:I'm not here, this isn't happening (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637190)

heh, feel free to cut and paste:


In an effort to restore slashdot [slashdot.org] to it's previous level of quality, I've begun an effort to point out, and mod down, all obvious karma whores and trolls. The job is large, but not impossible.

This poster obviously does not care about the topic, rather he (or she, perhaps), cares only about inflating karma, and to do so, this person has posted absolute crap.

What qualifies as crap on slashdot? Well, quite honestly, about half of the comments ranked above 2.

One way to easily spot a karma whore attempt, is to look for an obvious, but pathetic, post of linux superiority. A linux karma whore will often attempt to point out that linux is the best for job x, even though there may be, and probably are, better alternatives, such as Microsoft for desktops and FreeBSD for servers. These points will be ignored by linux karma whores, as pointing this out will not ensure the positive moderation they desire.

Another method for spotting karma whores is to look for comments posting, verbatim, something stated in the article, or in the editor's summary. While this often includes italicizing the quote, this is frequently a ploy to show that the person read the article, even though it's more likely the person only skimmed to find a comment worth repeating. Additional signs of the repetitive karma whore are: commentary on a quote that says nothing, "mirroring" an article that is not slashdotted, or pointing to google's cache. Also be careful before moderating up posts which link to obviously related sites: karma whores occasionally search popular search engines [google.com] to find related stories in an effort to gain more karma.

The third type of karma whore, one that very often succeeds on slashdot, is the sympathy whore. A sympathy whore often tries to gain karma by appealing to the moderator's sense of decency, either with a story about how they were unfairly fired, perhaps how they were unfairly persecuted, or occasionally how main stream capitalism is trampling on a sense of global decency. The latter tends to link common, benine events to horrific events of the past, making unfair generalizations and calling for action on behalf of a charity rather than carrying on with one's life. Do not let your heart be fooled into thinking that they are genuine: the sympathy whores want nothing more than karma.

Why would someone try to whore karma? Well, the simple answer is that everyone wants to feel smart, or popular. Many posters on slashdot describe themselves as nerds or geeks, societal outcasts. Posting to slashdot is their only true sense of community, and they view karma as a measure of popularity or status. Others karma whore to try to increase revenue and traffic to their own websites. Frequent marks of traffic whores are links in the posts that match the user's homepage, or links to hardware reviews on small sites, where links to purchase the hardware occupy the bottom half of the review. Again, do not let these subtle traffic whores fool you.

With these basic guidelines in mind, go out and moderate. Realize that many of the higher moderated comments are whores, and mod them back down. In an effort to increase the quality of comments, try to mod down no more than 3 posts in a given session ; use your remaining points to moderate some users UP. This ensures that not only are karma whores eliminated but that valid posts are acknowledged.

Re:I'm not here, this isn't happening (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637217)

hey faulty,

what qualities differentiate an "old-school troll" with one who does not deserve an ass-busting?

-s

Re:I'm not here, this isn't happening (-1, Offtopic)

Faulty Dreamer (259659) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637282)

the new ones deserve it, but the ones like Walter Bell arestraight out of the Signal 11/Anne Marie style trolls (talking out of your ass like a know-it-all).

The dumb-ass moderators always mod these people up with their content-free posts.

It's these trolls that need to be hounded and run out of town.

Re:I'm not here, this isn't happening (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637309)

so who is a new one, and what do they do differently? is it safe to ASSume that the adequacy guys are all bad?

Re:I'm not here, this isn't happening (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637407)

If you don't know that it was orignially:

Mae Ling Mak, Naked and Petrified

You really don't belong here.

Thank you.

Re:be careful, moderators... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637160)

Fuck you buddy, I hit the cap last week.

I am practicing to be a troll on kuro5hin when it comes back up. If you have any advice to lend, I'd appreciate it.

~wally

uhm... (2, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637128)

The person that wrote this has 0 clue of what's involed with routing. He needs to go read books before submitting stuff like this.

"just add a gig or two of ram to a cisco router"
hahahaha

Also, IPv4 is running out of IP's. Plain and simple. Therefore, these IP's need to be given to people that have a clue what to do with them and not piss them away. I work for a major webhosting company and we have to fight for our ips everytime we need more. It's getting harder and harder for us. Luckily we own our entire Class B now, but I know soon a time will come when we dont... heh

Research before whining to /.

Re:uhm... (1)

jayhawk88 (160512) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637233)

You mean routers won't take PC133? ;)

Re:uhm... (2, Interesting)

GLX (514482) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637297)

Actually, funny enough, the Cisco c3660 does... Just gotta make sure they're parity :-)

Quick, easy, dirt cheap way to add 256mb to those boxen :)

Re:uhm... (1)

samyool (450631) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637373)

Let's not forget the tens of thousands of nodes running on private IP addresses, and proxying or NATing to get out to the big I.

I'd imagine that, if these nodes were figured into the numbers, we'd find that there are more hosts than addresses under the current IPv4 system.

One way of reducing the number of unused addresses in a range is by assigning ranges to ISPs rather than to individuals. Then, at least, a few more nodes can be milked out of IPv4 before it runs completely dry!

You've got to pay to play (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637133)

Having a multi-homed network is extremely stressful on the rest of the Internet, and you're going to have to pay for the privilege.

Yes, routers have gotten a lot more advanced, but if every Tom, Dick, and Harry wants to have their own APNIC-assigned IP block, it is going to cost a lot of money for the backbone providers and everybody else to accomodate the routing tables. Unless you're big enough to make a reasonably large dent in their bottom lines, they aren't going to care about making you happy because it's just too damn expensive. (And guess who would wind up paying for your pleasure? Every user of consumer-grade connections, that's who.)

You should be quite satisfied that you can even get high-speed connectivity (not to mention, connectivity from multiple providers at once) where you're at. Here in the USA, the most technologically advanced society in the world, it's difficult if not impossible to get *any* high speed service outside a major metropolitan area. Before my cable monopoly upgraded its network, I couldn't get any service at all that wasn't long distance dialup.

My advice to you: count your blessings, and find a different way to solve the problem.

Just my 2c.

~wally

Re:You've got to pay to play (-1, Offtopic)

Spooge Demon (413208) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637222)

Here in the USA, the most technologically advanced society in the world, it's difficult if not impossible to get *any* high speed service outside a major metropolitan area.


That may have been a compelling insight if it weren't a total lie.

Re:You've got to pay to play (1)

quietlysubversive (132179) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637374)

viewed macroscopically, it is. deal.

Re:You've got to pay to play (1, Insightful)

TelcontarX (540226) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637401)

*LoL* the USA is the most technologically advanced society in the world?? USA is so far back on lots of areas they hardly qualify as a technological society at all. Sure there are lots of high-tech stuff going on at NASA, Pentagon, MIT, etc. but the SOCIETY is very low tech. In Norway about 80% of all youth aged 16-25 had their own cellphone in 1999. Can you find statistics showing the same numbers for the US ? In Norway you can also get high-speed internet connections almost everywhere, including very rural areas, but of course with a larger choice of services in the urban areas. Statistics from http://www.ssb.no/samfunnsspeilet/utg/200006/Fig6- 5.shtml

Woah. (5, Insightful)

SuiteSisterMary (123932) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637140)

but surely it would be a negligible cost to put 1-2GB of RAM on even a reasonably budget router at todays prices.
Paper is cheap. I'm going to give you a list of 1 million names and phone numbers. Quick! Find Mr. Smith's phone number!

Re:Woah. (1)

SillyMe (60216) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637211)

OK, give me a phone book of Toronto (or New York), and Mr Smith's full name, and street address.

I get the feeling I could find it in under a minute.

And I'm just a human.

Re:Woah. (2, Funny)

Binestar (28861) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637319)

Course if my ping times were 60,000,000ms to anywhere I would be quite upset.

=)

ever hear of a binary tree? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637397)

ever hear of computer science?

Re:Woah. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637399)

How is this insightful?

With 1 GB RAM I think you can put a pretty simple hash in the routing table and search for a useful route in an extremely short amount of time. Better:

Paper is cheap. Here's a million names and numbers. Quick! Find the page with the big tab that says SMITH, the heading JOE, sorted by ZIP code and tell me Joe Smith's phone number at 123 x street in ZIP 99999

You've hit the nail on the head ! (4, Insightful)

alphaque (51831) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637146)

It's the scarcity of IP addresses (then) and the growth of the routing tables which forced the situation we are in today. You're not alone in New Zealand suffering from it, most of us in Asia outside of Japan are too.

These methods and models of doling out IP addresses leave some of our internet data centres hopelessly inadequate at providing something as trivial as fault-tolerant links thru two or more ISPs within the same country as each ISP would refuse to route blocks belonging to other ISPs.

However, I dont think that arguing the increased RAM capacities of routers being capable of storing the huge routing tables is the answer.

CIDR and its ilk was developed to partly address huge routing tables, but the key point it addresses is propogation of new route changes which need to be sent to more routers and thus generating more traffic instead of being confined to just the edge (in context) routers as used now.

If the propogation of new and changed routes could be addressed without generating additional traffic, and believe me when I say bandwidth isnt cheap in Asia, then I would agree with utilizing larger RAM in routers to store these tables.

Incidentally, I was a couple of minutes short of FP. :)

Re:You've hit the nail on the head ! (0, Offtopic)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637218)

>>Incidentally, I was a couple of minutes short of FP. :)

Yeah, and I'm only a few inches short of an 18 inch long unit. Doesn't help me score.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and thermonuclear devices.

Re:You've hit the nail on the head ! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637227)

More memory??? For what?? Gig of RAM in a Cisco? WHICH MODEL?? Mine max out at about 512MB, 7500s mind you. The ENTIRE BGP routing table can be stored in 64MB of memory. We multi-home 2 DS3s and run them on 7200s with 256MB of memory. Memory isn't the issue, the address space is. It almost humors me to read some of these stories.

Re:You've hit the nail on the head ! (1)

GLX (514482) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637284)

The problem with the way CIDR is implemented is putting people in the situation where they're wasting huge amounts of address blocks. The company that I work for has an entire /16 (class B), yet all we use on our internet-facing networks is a couple of /24's... However, to maintain provider independance and not renumber our entire network, we have to keep the entire /16... We can't, for example, split it in half and give half to another company - ISP's like Verio and the like won't allow that because the network is a "Natural" class B and they won't allow any prefixes smaller than a /16 into their routing tables..

A few months ago I tried to split it in half between two sites of ours, and boy, was that ugly...

You should be happy (2, Funny)

snatchitup (466222) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637153)

You don't want every Tom, Dick, & Harry setting up networks like Loose Cannons. And Domain names, Darn-It! There are no more left, except of course www.clownpenis.fart.

Re:You should be happy (1)

ethereal (13958) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637263)

When I was searching recently, it appeared that many good domain names are available. If by "available" you mean have expired registration 1 or two years ago but are still listed as registered by NSI. Since the .com crash there are plenty of great names, if the registration system would just let you get them.

Old routers? (5, Informative)

kneecap (4947) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637163)

Even the in new Routers from Cisco you can't put 1 to 2 Gigabytes of RAM in them, most top out at 256 or 512MB. RAM for PC's might be cheap but most of the RAM for routers and such have not come down in price like the RAM for PC's.

Here in the US there is similar requirments, BackBone providers often filter routes at a /19 level. ARIN's minimum block size is /20 or for Multi-homed ISP's that qualify for a /21 also get a /20. But if you want you routes (and IP's) to be globaly distributed with no problems, then you need a /19 or bigger.

Money, yes, but not what you're thinking (2, Insightful)

itwerx (165526) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637171)

Let's pretend you're APNIC. Now let's pretend you've got 100 million geeks clamoring for IP's. How much of your resources do you spend on customer-service and hand-holding before you throw up your hands in despair and start setting some limits?
Perzackly.
Now, consider the fact the Joe and Jane Geek have to have a connection to use those nice shiny new IP addresses. And you soon see why we have the present hierarchy of telco's and ISP's.

Does anyone find this surprising? (3, Insightful)

Xenopax (238094) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637173)

Not be to be blunt or anything, but hasn't it occured to you that eventually we will end up with a few major ISPs? We watched for years as small ISPs struggled and went out of business, while the large players sucked up the business.

Nope, I sure as hell not suprised we're going down this road. All this new policy will do is speed up the natural selection of companies until a few monster ISPs (probably run by an existing monster like AOL/Time Warner/Nullsoft) run everything.

NAT? (4, Interesting)

bartle (447377) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637175)

An idea that I had been toying with was to buy 2 internet connections, say DSL and cable modem, then use NAT to use them both simultaniously. In a simple scenario, seems like it could be accomplished by picking up 2 of those cheap home gateways and setting up a non routeable network. Internally the machines would be set to use one of the gateways by default, if that connection went down you could switch to the other one. Externally multiple DNS records could be used to distribute the traffic among multiple ips, all of which point back at the non routable network.

Even though I concieved this idea for a low end home network, the basic idea should be applicable to a business that really wants a redundant connection. Just buy multiple connections from multiple sources, keep your machines in a non routeable network, then use some fancy equipment (a Cisco PIX for example) to make everything work. Bit of a kludge, but I think it's a viable solution.

Somebody tried selling me on a box that did that (4, Insightful)

swb (14022) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637229)

Someone tried selling me on a box that did that, except it would take several high speed connections (like 4 or 8 ethernet ports on the box, you supply the other end) and then via NAT and then intelligently load balance the traffic across those connections. I think it had the ability to transparently redirect traffic based on protocol to these presumably cheap broadband connections.

The idea was that instead of buying another expensive T1 because everyone's reloading Slashdot all the time, you buy cheapie DSL connectivity as needed and run your "unimportant" traffic out this box and the business-critical gets more of the T1.

It's a neat idea.

Cisco 2500 series router and PIX 506 firewall (2, Interesting)

zerofoo (262795) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637322)

I am a the network admin for a small school. We have a Cisco 2500 series router with a T1 interface and ISDN BRI. Using a "floating static" route, our 2500 series router dials out on the ISDN circuit if our T1 fails. This isn't really multi-homed since we are dialing into the same ISP and recieving the same IP block we usually get. It does, however, provide us with an emergency (slow) connection if our T1 goes down. The PIX 506 firewall provides NAT/PAT services. This setup works quite well.

-ted

Re:NAT? (3, Interesting)

Junta (36770) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637295)

Make it even better, use a full-fledged PC with three interfaces to serve as router (one address for each connection, and one internally). Though I don't know of any way to do it now, I would assume it could be a logical extension of NAT to NAT over two interfaces rather than one and use load balancing on outgoing traffic to figure out where to NAT the traffic through. If one went down, automatically put everything on the remaining connection. Higher throughput dynamically managed (more efficient than manual allocation) and failover, all without you needing to do a lot of manual work to keep things balanced and working right. All of this is assuming a non-routable private subnets, which is for many companies out there unacceptable...

Re:NAT? (1)

pillar (227782) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637344)

I had a Sun Box doing that for my home for a while. 3 ethernet interfaces 1 to the DSL, one to the Cable modem, and 1 to the internal LAN. I ran IPF/IPNAT on it to do the NATing/firewalling adn used static routes to distribute traffic. It was klunky and kinda a hack to use static routes, and it was by no means "redundancy" but it worked like a charm.

Re:NAT? (2)

Junta (36770) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637383)

I should've asked this in my comment, but does anyone know if there is a NAT implementation that allows you to specify more than one interface/address for a NAT rule?

Unfortunate futures... (5, Insightful)

Cutriss (262920) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637176)

Unfortunately, the very reasons you're eagerly awaiting IPv6 are probably the reasons that you won't ever see it, and you probably already know those reasons.

The Internet stopped being about information about five years ago (Or at least that wasn't the point anymore) and it's now all about eCommerce and BS like that. The very same companies that got on the Internet in the first place to deliver information are now delivering information only from their marketing departments, and not from engineers or researchers. Commerical interests have all but drowned out its original spirit, and are also partially the reason for the inception of Abilene (Internet2). Of course, it probably won't be long before that new promised land gets pillaged and raped. The Internet as we know it seems to be in an eternal state of loss of innocence, I'm afraid. I don't think the solution is to supplant or supercede the original 'net, but to just have a user-maintained network...kinda like what the network-area neighborhoods are designed to accomplish, except on a much grander scale. When the corporate interests don't exist, then the public can do with it as they see fit.

Re:Unfortunate futures... (2)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637320)

perhaps unis could all connect up to Internet 2, and make it just for information/education. then you can pay a uni a $20 connection fee so you can point yourself to their Internet 2 server farm and go!!

IPv6 a problem for many routers (3, Informative)

yakfacts (201409) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637183)

One real problem is that IPv6 is still not ready
for prime time.

There are many high-end routers that cannot deal
with IPv6 and will not be able to without a hardware upgrade, as they use ASICs to store tables of IP addresses and those ASICS expect four bytes.

Peer to Peer (4, Interesting)

horster (516139) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637184)

yes, but I believe the solution rests with a layer on top of the internet - namely something like peer to peer systems of today where nodes can shift more easily, appear and disapear without hurting the overall network.

the real problem is with NAT (network address translation). How to two peers behind such a NAT firewall anounce their presence to each other and then communicate without the assistance of a 3rd peer with a proper IP address and place on the internet. if anyone knows the answer to this quiestion, I'd love to hear it!

really, how do you announce a service behind a firewall? that seems to be the question of the day.

Re:Peer to Peer (1)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637346)

make it so the NAT keeps an eye out for your service then when the service sends out its anouncement, the NAT can then propagate that out. to get into a NAT from the outside, you could set up a table of allowed service anouncments that can come through so when a NAT picks one up it can cross check it with its internal table of allowable service domains (probably done with some certificate) and then can let it through. the NAT admin would have to physicly maintain this but it can work. it will just take a bit of work to Improve NAT and cooperations on a protocol for Certificates etc.

Re:Peer to Peer (1)

horster (516139) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637408)

that requires changing the firewall, not an option for many who want to quickly connect and disconnect - I'm talking about a pure behind the firewall, solution.

currently it looks like proxies are the only way, like I said, with the help of a third party.

IPs for the elite? (5, Informative)

Thornbury (540039) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637205)

It's true, you can't get portable IPs of your own anymore. The advent of CIDR and the segregation of netblocks were in an effort to reduce global routing tables.

Putting in 1-2Gb of memory in a router is still incredibly prohibitive. It just can't be done in the mainstream (common) routers.

You can still be multi-homed with netblocks from one ISP to be received by another. This happens this way in the US, and I'm sure it happens with APNIC and RIPE-issued blocks. You get the same effect, without all of the hassles of truly having your own blocks. At least we don't have the /19 barrier for advertising that used to be prevalent in larger ISPs. There is some give and take. The give on that is that the larger ISPs have gone to regional aggregates.

For instance, I don't want to have to pay for my addresses in the US now thanks to ARIN. (Don't get me started.) My ISP takes care of that. The justification process of getting addresses isn't fun, but it's a lot better than the Inquisition your provider has to go through. I'm not saying that economy is bad, but it's a fact of life with IPv4.

It's possible that controls will be loosened in an IPv6 world, but I don't think so. We've been down that path before. With tiny fragmented blocks of IPv6, we're creating a nightmare of routing tables the likes of which we've only imagined with IPv4. Aggregation is here to stay, and I beleive the days of the portable netblock are long gone.

Of course, if you can justify your need for your own blocks, you can go directly to your registry. If not, isn't it enough to have your networks SWIPed to you?

The days for "vanity" addresses are long gone. Maybe you should think up a clever .com domain name instead while you still can.

more consideration of the fact not manners (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637208)

I think the constoriums are worried that when countries go online like china that it will spark to much demand more than it can handle. I think they are trying to conserve and reserve as much as possible.

IPv6 may change this (1)

jjinux at yahoo (540224) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637209)

I'm sure that the reason that this is so is because we're running out of IPv4 IP addresses. After all, ARPANET started out as a defense project--it was never expected that some private party in New Zealand would ever need his own set of IP addresses! It will also free the rest of us from the need to use NAT's. -jj

IPv6 (3, Interesting)

MosesJones (55544) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637214)


WTF is it ? Solves all of these problems, increases security, increases reliability adds predictability to networking.

Its been trialed and used on long haul cables and backbones. Most decent OSes support it. IPv4 would still work over IPv6.

Isn't it time to flick the switch ?

George Harrison, Beatle, dead at 58 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637225)

I just heard some sad news on Yahoo [yahoo.com] - Former Beatle George Harrison was found dead at his friend's home in California yesterday. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

Re:George Harrison, Beatle, dead at 58 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637388)

Truly an American icon.

Except, wasn't he originally from Britain?

Market control is capitalism. (0)

jeff13 (255285) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637230)

Does this put control of the entire internet further and further into the hands of large corporate players,

Well duh, yes !

and and is anyone particularly interested in changing this situation?"

I hope so.

searches are expensive (2, Insightful)

Agthorr (135998) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637242)

Sure, you can STORE lots of routes in that much RAM, but how are you going to search that many routes to find the *right* one, in real-time, to route millions (or billions) of packets per second?

Use a WAN (3, Informative)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637251)

If I understand your needs correctly,
Why waist an entire set of IPs when you can NAT off your network and pay the local phone company o connect bothe sites over a leased line then you can have access to the 10.x.y.z reserved IPs. then you can have as big a network as yuou want. you could also put another NAT at the other end so as not to over load the first.

Cheap RAM? (1, Insightful)

Sandman1971 (516283) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637258)

"But surely it would be a negligible cost to put 1-2GB of RAM on even a reasonably budget router at todays prices." This person is definately showing they have no clue what they're talking about. YOu can't just put cheap 100$ 512 SDRAM.... or there goes your Cisco warranty. 1 gig of CIsco RAM will cost tens of thousands of dollars. Most routers that can handle that much RAM are not 'reasonably priced', unless you consider hundreds of thousands reasonable (IE: 7500 with RSP8 card). It's a shame that ISPs and NAPs in New Zealand don't offer BGP advertisements for multihoming. I work for a NAP in North America, and advertising another provider's classes for multihoming purposes is not something unusual; it's common practice.

Re:Cheap RAM? (2)

MadAhab (40080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637396)

I've seen that comment a number of times but it doesn't address the idea that routers are built with relatively small amounts of a commodity resource.

Why go multihomed? (4, Insightful)

Colin (1746) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637259)

I'm not sure why you want to go multihomed, with all the attendant problems that it brings. If this is a corporate connection, that's not got services (other than mail) being provided to the outside world, then I don't really see the point. I think you can provide the redundancy in other ways - here are some ideas, using 2 ISPs (and PA IP addresses allocated by each of them).

Put a mail server on each connection (or map an IP address from each connection through your firewall to the mail server). MX records will do your load balancing and redundancy for you.

Use NAT/PAT for users to connect to the Internet. If one conenction goes down, remove the internal routing to that connection - all your sessions will now go out of the other connection. I find that this is quicker than waiting for BGP to reroute connections via a backup/alternate path. It also gives you more flexibility in internal network numbering, and to move ISPs.

Host services with colocation providers - not internally. Colo service providers have already solved most of the service provision problems, and are well connected to the Internet - I don't think it's worth trying to do this in house.

Sounds a bit silly (2, Informative)

rnicey (315158) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637265)

Are you really sure that competing ISPs over there are not advertising others routes?

I've just had some first-hand experience of this with Worldcom, ESpire and AT&T. Worldcom were more than happy to allocate us a 'class C' so we could run BGP without getting filtered upstream. (This appears to be the smallest block that gets routed these days.)

Each and every one of these ISPs sold us dedicated connections boasting how many peering arrangements they had with each other and when it came time to route, no problem.

Maybe that's the cutthroat ISP biz in the US, I'm quite surprised that it's not the case in NZ.

The size of routing tables is quite big. In fact you generally require the entire use of a T1 just to manage the updates of a full table. That's why it's typically ISPs that do this kind of thing.

One other solution they all put forward was to purchase connectivity from each of them and let them do the BGP over the lines. I thought this was quite cooperative of them, to send your traffic via another provider if their link went down.

Hmmm.

Why do you have to 'own' the IPs? (4, Insightful)

Phizzy (56929) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637269)

How many computers do you have on this lan? Why do you think you need to 'own' the IP addresses? First off, you don't even need to own ANY ip addressed to do multihoming. You could NAT all of you LAN boxes up into the single /30 advertisement that your ISP(s) are going to give you for the serial interface on your router, and then have the ISP advertise that out to the 'net, and voila, you have multihoming. When one provider goes down, you can use your IGP to route across the other, OR, if you wanted to go a litte more high-class, you could buy a large router, and take full BGP tables from both providers, and differentiate intelligently based on the preferences sent on the routes. Now, if you don't want to do NAT, and there are a whole slew of good reasons you wouldn't, why are you hung up on ownership of these IP addresses? Why won't you let the IP-allocation process work like it's supposed to? If APNIC had to allocate IPs to every small business in the region it's responsible for, it would take 3 years to get IPs from them. Buy a block of IPs from your ISP(s), and if you transition to another ISP, re-number your network. Or, if you don't wanna go the cheap way, you CAN buy portable IP space from providers. Many of them buy whole Class As just for this purpose, it's just that you're going to have to pay more for these IPs than you would otherwise, as you should, since the ISP's netblocks can become non-contiguous if you leave. As far as your questions about IPv6 and router memory, the internet routing table is well up above 100k routes already, and there are many routers out there that are already having problems dealing with tables of this size. Many Cisco boxes will die in the near future if not upgraded, as their old routing engines run out of memory, and despite the fact that PC memory is cheap, router memory often is not. Especially when you have to install it on the tens of thousands of routers any decently sized ISP will have. IPv6 isn't really even a factor yet.. and when it is, many routers are going to need heavy upgrading (software, hardware, etc) to deal with it, which is why so many ISPs aren't rushing out to do it. So buy some portable IP space, get yourself multihomed, and go buy a good BGP book.

//Phizzy

Spagetti Wilson and the Ancient Troll (0, Flamebait)

bushboy (112290) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637273)

Give me a break - isn't this why 'virtual' hosting was introduced ?

Next thing you'll be saying you want your own strip of highway to put outside your house, linking your ass to every asshole in history.

Incorrect assumptions, answers (3, Insightful)

uslinux.net (152591) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637274)

First of all, RAM on a router is not the issue anymore. The issue is bandwidth. If your router has to maintain 100,000,000 routers instead of 100,000, you have a 1,000 fold increase in routing table updates in network bandwidth.

Second, IPv6 will solve this, at least for a while. Despite IPv6 having enough addresses for all the particles in the universe, I'm sure we'll run out again in a few years :-)

Finally, how many companies actually need their own IPs? Small ISPs just get their IP range from a larger player, who is providing them with bandwidth. Under normal circumstances, a mom & pop ISP doesn't need an OC-192 - they're probably happy with a T-3. It's cheaper for them to sublet a fraction of a big player's bandwidth then to go at it alone.

Inspecor Willy and the invisible Guava (-1, Flamebait)

bushboy (112290) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637291)

Now that I have your attention...

I will attempt to poison your minds with pure layman bullshit, as perveyed by 'geek-illiterate' t-shirt dwellers :-

Virtual hosting !

I mean, what do you want, a slice of highway on your freakin' doorstep !

Doos !

:)

Become a government agency (2)

alen (225700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637314)

In my experience working for the US government I have never seen them use a private IP range. They would have Class B subnets and use only a fraction of the available IP's. The rest are pretty much wasted. So if you can't beat them, join them. Become a government agency and you'll have all the IP's you could want.

Routers, Upgradability, Etc. (4, Informative)

Jordy (440) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637316)

Oh so many answers, so little time.

First of all, one should note that IPv6, while supported in newer versions of Cisco IOS, has the slight problem that in BFRs, the hardware accelerated routing hardware has four times more work to do to look up a 128 bit IP address making performance somewhat of a problem. Add to the fact that a lot of the routers out there simply can not be upgraded past 128 MB of RAM and you run into a slight problem when you go to make your $150k router IPv6 capable.

Then there is the little problem of client operating systems and the "migration" to IPv6. As there are only a handful of people on this planet who use IPv6 exclusively, routers will have to support both until all the client software of the world moves over. Now, it is bad enough getting full IPv4 BGP updates, but getting them *AND* IPv6 updates?

Of course, next comes all the little hardware out there. From the terminal servers people dial up to, to the layer 4 load balancers, there is a lot of hardware that doesn't support IPv6.

So, as a large network service provider, one would have to justify the costs associated with IPv6 against the benefits. The benefits are pretty slim right now unfortunately. Ideas like a single roaming IP (pipe dream if you ask me), mandatory multicast/anycast support, fixed sized headers and IP level security are all fine and dandy, but when you are talking about replacing (or at least suplementing) millions of dollars in infrastructure to allow a handful of people to use IPv6 for years until the REST of the world follows, it starts becoming hard to justify.

Don't get me wrong, IPv6 has some lovely attributes, but until Cisco enables IPv6 by default on all the hardware they make, everyone upgrades their copies of Windows and MacOS to support it and all of a sudden the terminal servers of the world (remember dialup still exists) all start learning how to route IPv6 packets, it is an uphill battle.

So the question really becomes, how long will it all take? IPv6 really needs a killer application to the general public aware that they *need* it and ask their providers to provide it. Once enough demand is generated, ISPs will start asking their upstreams for it and the ball will start rolling.

The same problems have plagued multicast for some time and still, very few providers support it and even fewer have customers who use it.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Moderators! Help! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637321)

Good grief Man!.

This thread cetainly troll-nosedived in about 10 minutes. Please, someone restore some order! Completely OT anti-karma-whore posts modded up as Interesting? Please.

PS, the article itself is a bit of ham, no? I don;t think the Internet was ever desinged for You and Me. It was a DOD project let loose upon the free market.

Multi-Homed in a CIDR world (3, Interesting)

paulbort (9372) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637334)

Here's how we solved the multi-home problem despite CIDR. We wanted to make a web service (Citrix [citrix.com] ALE) available over our T-1, or over our DSL (from a different provider) if the T-1 fails. The solution was to get a cheap Web hosting service that will use our (already registered) domain name to host a couple of static pages that point to our servers by IP address. One set of pages points to the address we got from the T-1 provider, the other points to the DSL address.

When Big Brother [bb4.com] thinks the main connection is down, we ftp over the backup connection to the off-site web host, make the other set of pages the default, and our users now come in on the other circuit. We change the Alternate Address on the Citrix servers, and we're back in business.

just like every new media source (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637342)

Gutenbergs press, governments tried to control it, and use it for control.
radio, controlled by governments, ran by business, almost no small player.Those small player that our left are being pushed out by regulations backed by corporations.
TV is controlled mush like Radio.
all these mediums are used to tell you what to think, eat, read.
why should the Internet be any different?

People who want to control, and power, don't go into Politics anymore, its too heavily watched. They become corporate players.

multihoming defined (5, Informative)

mdouglas (139166) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637350)

for those of you who are confused about the nature of multihoming :

multihoming involves connecting to 2 or more isps and BGP publishing your ip space through both of them. this (ideally) involves having your own ARIN assigned ip space & AS number.

the point of multihoming is to address redunancy for inbound as well as outbound connections. you can use 2 isps + nat + creative outbound routing to handle outbound traffic, but that does nothing for a potential web server you're trying give multiple inbound paths to.

read the multihoming faq :
http://www.netaxs.com/~freedman/multi.html

IPv6 (0, Redundant)

dAzED1 (33635) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637364)

one of these days, IP6 will happen...

then there won't be issues like this anymore.

duh! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2637385)

Same with mom-and-pop providers. No small players left.
That's the price to pay when you involve big money.
Duh!

Large players *do* and *must* run the internet (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637390)

Does this put control of the entire internet further and further into the hands of large corporate players, and and is anyone particularly interested in changing this situation?

Not really, and no I'm not.

The Internet already is, always has been, and must be, run by large players. You cannot have an interconnecting network that spans the world and has that many users without someone very big to put the infrastructure (hardware and software) in place, and to maintain it afterwards. The only people capable of doing that are major corporations, and a few very large not-so-commercial bodies (the academic community, for example).

I'm sorry, but if keeping things efficient and practical for these essential big players means you can't play with precious IP address space, then that's the price you're going to have to pay. There just isn't space for everyone to play with their own blocks of IPs any more, and there isn't time for everyone further up the chain to account for them even if the space was there.

Yes, it's unfortunate that some of these big players have a monopoly, which is rarely a good thing. Yes, it's unfortunate that little fish get eaten by big fish. But unless you have a better suggestion, there are only two choices: (a) leave the big fish alone, accept that for now there will be issues, and have an Internet, or (b) get on your high horse about monopoly abuse, civil liberties, and any other subject of pontification you can find, and kill the Internet. Me, I think that's a pretty easy choice.

I'm working on it. (1)

NoMoreNicksLeft (516230) | more than 12 years ago | (#2637410)

Right now, I'm still experimenting with liberating the DNS system. Give me another 12 months, and we'll see about the internet as a whole. I mean, lots of improvements we could make right from the start... ipv6 from scratch, etc.

*grin*

Actually, in a demented way, I'm quite serious.
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