Is Hacking Cars a Thing of the Past? 748
"Ever since electronic ignitions, and especially ones controlled by computers, it seems the "hackability" and user-maintainability of cars has been declining. Your neighborhood grease monkey can't do much to a modern car without a bunch of electronic gear interfacing to the car's computer. It's almost a little anti-competitive.
Carbeurators, and the other mechanical systems which were fairly standard and visible and self-evident, really seem to be the equivalent of "open source", while the new computer-based systems seem to be more closed and proprietary. I know in the early days of cars with computers, there were third party ROM upgrades for performance tweaking; I'm guessing that's falling by the wayside more and more, as these systems get more and more complex.
It almost seems like a Microsoft-like statement, to tell you they're doing all of this to reduce theft, while really they're doing it to ensure you are forced into coming back to their dealerships..."
Their goal... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Their goal... (Score:5, Informative)
1) End user maintenance. Why can't the car tell you why the check engine light is on? Because the dealers want you to come down to the shop and pay them $40 just to do a diagnosis.
2) Mechanics will get the machines that they need to read the computer codes. The car companies make money indirectly by working with the folks who build these boxes. The mechanics make money because they can charge somebody $40 because a light came on.
#2 really burns me. The computers in the shop are typically PCs housed in a big console with several cables coming out. The cables are simply a black box to the parallel port. There is no reason that this black box cannot be made available in you local Discount Auto.
Once my car is paid for, I'm going to set out to develop a replacement computer of my own design - Just to spite those guys. If anyone is interested or knows where I can get info on the Ford 4.6L engine, please let me know. I've got the shop manuals, and they do a pretty good job of describing the signals coming from the equipment. The next step is to design the hardware. OpenCar anyone? No...wait...that's a lousy name. How about RagTop?
Re:Their goal... (Score:5, Informative)
Twostep
Re:Their goal... (Score:4, Insightful)
On the whole "their making it more complex to make more money for dealers issue", its not even close to that. They make it more complex by adding computer controls to get finer control of the car. Mechanical switches and valves are not as good (emissions, gas mpg, etc..) as computer controlled (electronic) ones. I have a feeling a lot of geeks don't even change their own oil let a lone do something like change an engine. Please go to a local net forum about cars and read a little.
Re:Their goal... (Score:3, Informative)
Maddest props to Chrysler for making their diagnostic codes [allpar.com] end-user accessible.
Saved me a bundle being able to walk into a good mechanic's shop and saying "Diagnostic code XX, friggin' oxygen sensor."
Re:Their goal... (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, for GM, some Ford, and Chrysler cars at least, you can get the AutoTap [autotap.com] which is a OBDII to RS232 serial adapter combo which lets you get engine parameters in real time from the computer.
Cheers,
LV
(owner of a 400hp TransAm with n2o injection)
People Still Use Car Alarms? (Score:4, Funny)
Does anyone even use those things anymore?
I mean, let's face it, when you hear a car alarm go off, do you even *LOOK* in that direction? I know I don't.
And even if I saw someone with a jimmy, the hood up, wires sticking out and a
All car alarms do now is annoy people.
Oh and give kids a something to throw snowballs at during winter
- Z
Re:People Still Use Car Alarms? (Score:4, Informative)
My car, a '99 Olds Alero, has the same thing. It's a nice feature, especially considering I live in the car theft capital of Canada (Regina). It can be a pain for things like car starters and getting extra keys made, but overall I like the idea.
Re:People Still Use Car Alarms? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:People Still Use Car Alarms? (Score:2)
My Car Alarm Idea... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:My Car Alarm Idea... (Score:5, Funny)
Phase 1: *sound of clearing throat then woman's soft voice* Can you sort of leave now before it gets worse for you?
Phase 2: *loud voice but not screaming* "OK, You were warned. Step away from the vehicle, NOW!"
Phase 3: *screaming in woman's voice* "Thief! Thief! Help! Thief!"
Phase 4: *screaming hysterically/shrieking* I'M BEING RAPED! I'M BEING RAPED! HEEEELLLPPP!! HE'S STICKING IT IN MY ASSSS!!! MY ASSSS!!!"
And so it goes.
Re:My Car Alarm Idea... (Score:3, Interesting)
I would do the same for someone calling out in distress, but experience has shown repeatedly (at least in the US) that many people will ignore it, or rationalize that someone else must be taking care of it. People (at least in the US) just don't want to get involved in troublesome situations if they can avoid it. Someone else's problems are easy to ignore. A fire can quickly become YOUR problem.
other ignition technologies (Score:4, Interesting)
to me, it is absolutely criminal that cars are not mandated to have at least some level of drunkdriving prevention. dunno if that would get in the way of alternative security systems, but if it does
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2)
Never push for a law unless you think about the huge criminal market it might create.
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2)
My theory is that a significant portion of drunk drivers only feel comfortable driving dunk when they are
as always, it comes down to the numbers, but the drunk drivers I know wouldn't feel comfortable with using such services. basically, they just 'assume' when they are drunk that they arn't, hop in their car, and go
Average Human? (Score:2)
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2)
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:5, Insightful)
I have no problem with installing a breathalizer in the car of someone who has been convicted of DUI/DWI, but it's totally unacceptable to require it of someone who has not even been accused, let alone convicted, of a crime.
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not saying the government should be free to impose it; if anything, the fact that they WOULD have to madate and force it today proves that as a society we still want to be able to bend the rules at will based on our senses of responsibility. But that may not be the case in the future
BTW, I'm usually the one screaming my head off about not relying on a technology or holding the percieved inferiority or inappropriateness of a given technology accountable for problems and events. About the only thing you can hold all technology for is that they
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:3, Interesting)
My car's turbo boost guage is wildly inaccurate because the computer feeds it averages of the boost, not a straight reading from the turbo itself. Thankfully, I can buy an aftermarket boost guage, install it properly, and get accurate readings without circumventing the computer. This makes it much easier for me to diagnose problems with my car in the future as I have accurate readings from the turbo, not averages.
This idea goes for all kinds of other areas of my car, as well as other cars. Besides, the driving tests here in America suck huge hairy ones! There are so many clueless drivers, without knowledge of how to actually drive a car, on the roads because of it. Just like most of the other perfectly good laws in this country (like no drunk driving laws) - if we could enforce 'em with more manpower, we wouldn't need ever more restrictive laws in the first place.
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2)
Hell, I failed my first drivers license test because I didn't go over the speed limit to merge on the highway safely.
However, I challenge anyone to come up with a list of 10 legitamite reasons for drunk driving.
Also note that the breathalizer could be set at a most-serious-infraction level; just to stop the hammered people. Thus, you would still keep the responsibility and control in the hands of people who are in the 'grey area', if you want to keep the rights zealots at bay. (Of which I am one of them.)
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:4, Funny)
10) Natural selection?
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2)
Crap, crap, and more crap. (Score:2)
You put more stuff into a device and you increase the chances that it will break. I don't have any education the area of engineering but I assume this is a very basic principle. The more complex it is, the more likely it's going to break. Do you -really- want to be late for work one day when your drunk-driving auto-detection thingy goes haywire? Probably not.
Do you really think somebody won't figure out a way to get past these things? Grab an air, compressor, fill a balloon up a ways, perhaps heat it to a reasonable temperature and let the damned breathalizer analyse that. Fire up your car and off you go. Whoopee. Sure, you could make the thing more complex; perhaps get a very preciese thermometer in the thing to make sure your breath is 98.6 degrees or at least very close. Now, mom has to take her child to school, has a fever of 101 degrees and can't start the car. Wonderful.
What if I'm loaded off my ass, and feel like changing my own in -my own backyard-. I don't think there should be any technological measure in place to keep me from pulling my car up onto blocks and doing my thing. Sure, it ain't safe, but it's my life.
GPS Systems to track my speed? Bull. There's no way law enforcement is ever going to get their act together enough to actually build a database of all the roads with all the necessary speed requirements. If I'm ever sold a car with this kind of crap in it I'll make damned sure it's not functioning as soon as I can. There -are- times where speeding is warranted. I don't want my car shutting down on me when I -really- need to get somewhere fast. I'll refrain from such examples -- use your imagination.
So, should we make these types of things mandatory in cars? What if it's detected that mine is broken, accidentally or not? Do I -really- want to be labled as an offender or criminal because my GPS system got splashed with water and I'm unaware of that? Sure, you can get ticketed now for having defects in vehicles -- but they're defects that are visible to the eye. Broken windshields, tailights, etc. Any idiot can tell when those are broken. Do we really want to include a GPS calibration routine in a pre-drive checkout for the average consumer? Hah... no.
Re:Crap, crap, and more crap. (Score:2)
Accidents usually come down to one thing
My brother was hanging out with some friends last weekend when one guy got up to leave and head home. He'd been drinking pretty heavy so one of the young women there who was dead-straight sober said to him he can't drive -- she'll drive him home and have a friend follow and bring her back. He agreed, handed her the keys and off they went. She missed the road to turn on, went thorugh a red-light that was blinking (she stopped, but thought it was a 4 way). It wasn't a 4-way, and she -totaled- a full sized pickup truck. Irony at it's finest.
Why Write A Ticket? (Score:4, Insightful)
They were talking about that on CNN while I was travelling through Europe. It's quite feasible to implement it. It's also quite feasible to implement automatic ticketing that tickets all speeders all the time. Neither system would stand a chance of hell of ever getting implemented. In the case of the car just refusing to speed, that'd eliminate speeding ticket revenue and a lot of places depend on that revenue. In the case of the automatic ticketing thing, people would force the speed limits to be removed or raised to the actual speeds people drive at (Which again would have the effect of eliminating those lovely ticket revenues.)
What this adds up to is that there is a system that is arbitrairly enforced against a population which more or less completely ignores the posted limits.
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2)
However how about when the idiot behind you pulls in 3 inches from your rear bumper - you speed up to the limit + 5 to get away and you get fined. Great.
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2, Interesting)
I remember seeing an example of one of these systems on a "reality" TV show - they showed the cops remotely deactivating the fleeing car's engine. Of course, my first thought was: what happens when hackers figure out the frequency and the protocol and start deactivating cars on the freeway? I won't accept something like that on my car - my vehicle will be under my control, or it will be under no one's control.
Re:Your probably one of the Anti-Microsoft types t (Score:2)
Are the metal scanners at airports taking away your freedom? Duh, you don't have to take a plane, just like you don't have to own or use a car.
You make us liberals look bad by confusing your right to communicate and think freely with your lack of right to
Thus, having a breathalizer ignition is not giving up freedom if the majority of people in the society (if its a democracy) support it.
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2)
You can do all of the activities you described in a moderate and responsible way. You cannot drive a car when you are HAMMERED in a responsible way, or for any legimate reason.
You're right tho. Actually, we shouldn't even have licences. We should just say: "If you want to drive a car, just make sure you're responsible about it!"
Next time, try explaining your argument, and pondering the context of your examples a little more before jumping into a limp rhetoric rage.
Re:other ignition technologies (Score:2)
How the hell is it Big Brother if I WANT it, and will gladly accept it if over 50% of the other people in my country WANT it? Don't confusing WANTING it with tolerating being told to accept it if I disagree with it.
And if so, where does that leave you? Against democracy?
Car security (Score:2, Interesting)
But then, I've never felt the need for a remote starter anyway. I've gotten used to walking outside in my pajamas in the winter to start the car so it can warm up while I get ready for work.
Re:Car security (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Car security! (Score:3, Funny)
with a fancy key required to start it, and yet
you leave the thing running in your driveway,
while you get ready for work!
There's some irony here somewhere, I'm sure.
AC
Re:Car security (Score:2)
A car theif has the advantage of not having to mind the finish.
Audi Performance and Racing (Score:5, Informative)
Besides, installing a remote car starter isn't my idea of a real hack. How is that any more of a "hack" than installing a new car radio? Obviously, you weren't able to bypass the security system, so you're not much of a hacker.
Re:Audi Performance and Racing (Score:4, Funny)
I have far better torque and have beaten every vehicle (whether motorcycle, automobile, truck, or otherwise) off the line and out-paced it for the first 25 meters. Of course that's just in regular city traffic, but occassionally some punk in a fast car tries it. I also get infinite gas mileage. I drive a 1.15 horsepower Schwinn with a 24-speed manual transmission. I could turbocharge it, but I quit caffeine.
Cornering? Braking? 90 degree turn, 15 foot radius, 20 mph (on a daily basis using worn tires).
Expensive Car Parts Needed (Score:4, Informative)
Reb
No loss of freedom. (Score:2)
Your alternative option is to buy a car thirty years old (air cooled VW's come highly reccomended) and just set up a servo to short circuit the wires you need short circuited, and presto, instant remote start.
Just don't leave the car in gear when to go to bed at night; use the emergency brake.
Yeah, i'm pretty pissed off too... (Score:4, Funny)
It's a shame, it really is.
Re:Yeah, i'm pretty pissed off too... (Score:2)
Change the gear ratio in your Yugo, go to prison for life.
This just means you *REALLY* hack the car (Score:2)
I've hacked my motorcycles to make things work contrary to the original design on many occasions. Removing parts I didn't want that sucked way power, adding new circuits for auxillary devices, splice here, chop there, etc. Here's the important part, when I've asked other people, the typical response was "Gee, I've never done that." so we figured it out. Wanna know how long it took for someone to figure out that a '96 Kawasaki KLR hand guard could be fit onto a Suzuki SV650 with just a bit of machining? Now that was a hacker at work!
"Loss of freedom and control" (Score:4, Insightful)
Jesus, this is on the level of whining that you can't use the windshield wipers from your old car (which were brand new!) on a new car you just bought.
'Cause of the Mods.... (Score:2)
But all the good 'Riceboy mods' [riceboypage.com] are only available for Hondas..... You can wire the trunk release button on the remote starter to the cleverly mounted fire extinguisher to put out the electrical fire caused by improper installation of the car starter
Huh? (Score:2)
Besdies, a remote control car starter just sounds like a *really* bad idea. No benefit, all kinds of possible security breaches. You want to make your car easier to steal for no good reason?
I'll admit that the fancy electronics are pushing out the really small-scale mechanics, but it is by no means microsoft tactics. They want to improve cars, make them harder to steal, more convenient and efficient. Yes, you may have a bit more proprietary stuff in each car, but I'll wager that even if the accessories are produced by a single company now, in the future other companies will have the circuitry for the different models just like they do forconventional parts.
This is one of the most oddball ideas I've seen on Slashdot.
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Well, the usual reasons include: You want to warm your car up on a cold morning before you get into it. You want to air-condition your car cooler on a hot day before you get into it. You want to know where your car is in a crowded shopping mall parking lot.
These remote-starter devices have been around for many many years for good reasons, you know.
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
From the sound of the engine? "Be vewy, vewy quiet -- I'm hunting my VW Wabbit!"
As for the other reasons, do what I did -- have kids! They love starting the car, and they'll warm up the seat some too.
Re:Huh? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Sometimes, I wish people who didn't understand something would be quiet, rather than pretend to understand it. Remote starters bypass the ignition switch to start the vehicle. As others have mentioned, starting a vehicle remotely is nice if, say, your car is parked outside on a cold morning, and you want to warm it up before getting in it. However, they ONLY work on vehicles equipped with automatic transmissions and fuel injection. Manual transmissions have a neutral safety switch, which requires the clutch pedal to be depressed in order to start. Bypassing that switch on some vehicles can cause problems with the computer, cruise control, etc. Fuel injection is required because carbureators require you to depress the gas pedal once or twice before starting.
And you say you feel uncomfortable about leaving a key in your unit in order to make it functional, but if they are already in your car and that far anyway, what would they need your *key* for?
If a key is required for the remote starter, and someone breaks in to the vehicle, they find the hidden key, remove it, and start the engine with it like a normal person. Or, they could hotwire it, bypassing the "key required" part of the anti-theft system.
Besdies, a remote control car starter just sounds like a *really* bad idea. No benefit, all kinds of possible security breaches.
I would *assume* these have some sort of built-in security code, just like a keyless entry system, garage door opener, etc. The security issue is leaving a key in the vehicle. Even hidden, THAT is just a BAD idea.
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Seems logical to me... (Score:2)
I don't see why this means "hacking your car" is a thing of the past. It just means you need an anti-theft device that's more compatible.
spare key (Score:5, Informative)
You would, of course, be essentially disabling that part of the anti-theft system, but thieves now have ways around it anyway. If the key profile is identical to pre-chipped versions, it would also mean you could run your car with a non-chipped key, which is a lot easier to fit on your keychain.
Keys to Spare (Score:2)
Virg
Re:spare key (Score:3, Insightful)
You can't just remove the key and then take the car. You have to remove the key, remove the remote starter, then reconnect the ignition to the car's starter. This job, in an ideal environment would take about an hour to do.
It then occurred to me that the least secure place to leave the car is in my own garage, since that place would provide the thieves with the most cover to work under overnight.
Evolution (Score:5, Insightful)
All of this comes at a price. You now nearly need to be a rocket scientist (or at least an automotive engineer) to work on them, but IMO, the price is worthwhile. Meanwhile, my 5.0L V8 '66 Mustang used to get about 16 MPG and had about 220HP, yet you can buy a 4-cylinder Subaru WRX with 225HP (Turbo) which gets ~27MPG, and will let you walk away in a crash.
Yes, cars have gotten harder to work on, but they've also gotten safer, lighter, less polluting, and more luxurious. If you want to tinker with your vehicle, buy a 2-door Civic and mod it up, or buy a classic to restore like I did. Or get a kit, and build it from scratch.
Re:Evolution (Score:2)
Also you don't have to go back very far to shed a whole lot of technology. A 1991 BMW M3 is *very* hackable: mechanics, computers, everything. It is also modern enough to have all the safety, emissions, and convenience features we take for granted these days. Perhaps this was the golden age of the automobile.
Car thieves have it all wrong.... (Score:5, Insightful)
No antitheft system in the world will help against a dedicated theif. The most effective system would probably be to just remove the distributor cap, or a kludge to disconnect the battery easily. No car thief is gonna spend time under the hood finding out why the car won't start. Of course, you get bit on convienence issues. But you'll never have to concern yourself with car theft.
-Restil
Re:Car thieves have it all wrong.... (Score:2)
Working in the "high-tech" area of Vancouver, BC, where there are some pretty snobby dot.bombing CEO's driving leased Porches, etc., that don't think that they have to follow parking rules in our part of town, and as a result they cause a bunch of parking problems. I can tell you that a number of us actually ENJOY watching these guys getting parking meter tickets and getting towed. It's always good for a laugh. And you're right, we'd never know if it was just a scam and the guy's car was getting jacked.
Re:Car thieves have it all wrong.... (Score:5, Funny)
LOL, thats an interesting assesment. At a local car show I was near the security booth when one man came to report his 1969 camaro was stolen and he couldn't figure out how it was stolen since he had the rotor out of the distributor in his pocket. Literally within 5 minutes another man came in to report that someone stole the rotor out of the distributor on his chevy truck.
If theifs want it, they will take it. They are resourceful and will spend some time under the hood.
Step back and think about it. (Score:5, Informative)
As for third-party ROM upgrades, these things are falling by the wayside because, among other reasons, most onboard computers use EEPROMS now, and when most people monkey with their engines they just wind up wrecking the timing and trashing the performance anyway.
And there's not reason to compare everything you dislike to Microsoft. That radio keylock is a Honda option, nobody forced you to buy it, nobody is keeping you from removing that option from your car, and so on. A little time with a pair of diags and a soldering iron will remove the problem forever.
As for leaving a spare key installed, what makes you think that's less secure than installing a remote starter? I built a little gadget not six months ago. It's a lot of fun. I go into a mall parking lot and press a button. A couple of 555 timers start cranking... and a few seconds later so do all the tricked-out imports in the parking lot. Granted, I still can't get in the vehicles, but I sure can start 'em up.
In conclusion, if you want to play with your engine, or your ignition system, or whatever, buy a car you know how to work on. If you buy a 2002 model and can't figure out how to monkey with it, don't blame the auto manufacturer for knowing more about cars than you.
Re:Step back and think about it. (Score:4, Interesting)
OBD-II has made it a lot easier to hack computers, but the tuning of the engine is still an art practiced by people who have learned A LOT and still don't know everything. It's rare to find an aftermarket engine that is tuned to the quality of the OEM engine, it just doesn't happen all that often.
So what happens? There are several companies who manufacture aftermarket drop-in computers for controlling engine functions. For Fords SpeedBrain and the Ford SVO EPEC come to mind. For race cars the Edelbrock EFI, Accel DFI, Speedpro, and Motronic are used often. The upside to the aftermarket is that you get documentation and they rarely are as complex as OEM computers.
Here's a list off the top of my head of sensors and functions a Ford EEC-IV computer controls:
Mass Air Flow Sensor, Barometric pressure sensor, Throttle Position Sensor, Engine Coolant Temperature sensor, Air Charge Temperature sensor, O2 sensor, Vehicle Speed Sensor, Exhaust Gas Recirculator valve, Canister Purge Valve, Thermactor Control Valve, Thick Film Ignition module, Idle Stabilizer Valve, Automatic transmission accumulator pressure, 1st to 2nd gear shift point, 2nd to 3rd gear shift point, 3rd to 4th gear shift point, Torque Converter lockup RPM, Idle RPM, Automatic Transmission Drive Idle RPM, Neutral indicator, etc.
That's just sensors and some basic interactions. Most aftermarket computers don't use half those sensors, and on top of that they are usually Manifold Absolute Pressure based rather than Mass Air Flow.
So, as you can see, it isn't "Just buy a book". I have every book on Ford EFI, and none of them tell you the slightest thing about tuning an EEC-IV computer. Everything I've learned has been from the internet (there are enthusiasts who hack and document their hacks) and from hacking.
I've been there, I've done computer tweaking, and I know it's not simple or trivial, it's all just hacking and guesswork.
Sometimes more (Score:2)
Most of the old car work was thing like points, and carberators. Both are gone, replaced by something that is not only more reliable, but easier to controll. A good hacker can replace the comptuer on his car with something tuned to his likeing, and has more information doing it. Old cars never had O2 sensors to help you figgure out what the right mixture setting on the carbrator, new cars have that sensor, and the ability to change things in REAL TIME for the best mixture. (for some definition of best understanding the emissions/proformance/milage trade off)
Sure it is more work, but then turning a screw on the carb wasn't a hack it was just easy to do, and needed to be done often enough that everyone could do it. Today there are no screws to turn so the real work is a real hack.
Similar Article in Sunday's Boston Globe (Score:2, Informative)
why not leave the key in the car?? (Score:2)
Is it that much more of a security risk as having a remote starter for the car? Having a remote starter for a car always seemed to me as an security risk in itself. Why is it needed? It is not as though the car will park itself for you and pick you up at the door.
Now, this is hacking cars.. (Score:3, Informative)
taking this a little too far (Score:2, Insightful)
And I wouldn't go around comparing cars from the past to open-source and modern cars to microsoft - that's essentially saying open-source software, though infinitely hackable, is inefficient, outdated, and insecure. Drawing a parellel between Microsoft (closed-source) and modern cars would in effect say MS software is clean, efficient, secure, and performs well out of the box.
If modern cars are less "hackable" than older cars, why are there thousands of custom shops dotting the country, hooking up modern cars? Why are there still car shows for people to show off their mods (some of which leaving the original car nearly unrecognizable)?
Cars aren't getting less hackable, you just have to do it differently than before.
read Sport Compact Car and see for yourself (Score:2)
On the other hand, the aftermarket is keeping up with the electronicification of cars quite well, from what I've read. Yes, there are a lot of electronics in cars, but that simply means you either work with them or around them now.
In your case, you couldn't install a remote starter because of your antitheft system. So? Perhaps you should choose a different system (if available) that won't interfere with $50 off-the-shelf Pepboys remote starting systems. Yes, you didn't have to make this choice before. Yes, before you could do it all yourself. Well, welcome to the future.
What it really boils down to is that it is still possible to hack your car (as you put it), but the effort and price associated with doing so has increased. That's all. Basing your assumption purely on your own single experience is hardly scientific.
I recommend that you pick up an issue of Sport Compact Car [sportcompactcarweb.com] sometime, and see what they're doing. They're not exactly the remote-starter types, but they are doing just about everything under the sun imaginable to everyday vehicles, including full standalone engine management. Yes, it's expensive, but it's most certainly a very cool hack.
Disagree (Score:2)
I disagree. A feature that requires the key to be present to start the car is useful to almost every end user. It can help keep your car from being stolen. It is true that it inconvieniences a small percentage of users who want to fiddle but overall it is a positve thing.
On the other hand Microsoft (and lots of other companies) tend to add features that are not good for the user. One example of this is the XP authentication nightmare. Another (non MS example) is the SDMI. How about DVD region coding. These are all 'features' that make the product less useful.
I think that's an important difference. It's the difference between a feature you don't like and a feature that no one likes.
The Aircooled VW community bleeds for you (Score:2, Interesting)
I drive past the smog-check stations and scoff.
There has to be a reason why lots of people don't mind putting the time and effort into maintaining 40 year old econoboxes.
Maybe because everything that's been offered since then has been lacking.
Huh? (Score:2)
That stupid little quote caps off the dumbest story I've seen on /. in MONTHS. He's so deep in his own ignorance that he figured the only way to save his silly little rant was to add a "your rights online" buzzphrase. "Honda is just like *Microsoft!*".
This dumbass is upset because a key is required to start the car. Uh, brainiac: that's the whole PURPOSE of keys. Honda is finally doing keys RIGHT, and you're bitching about it.
Toyota Prius Hacking (Score:2)
As with all hacking, it CAN be done, and if someone hasn't done it yet, there are certainly people willing to help you figure out how.
Toodles,
---Chip Lynch
Why? (Score:2)
What is it good for? Most of the gadgets that enable you to warm up your car before you get in (standing heater / a/c) will come with a dedicated "engine" which is essentially a small combustion engine hooked up to the primary fuel circuit and starts at a preprogrammed time or catches a remote signal to start immediate heating (like when you don't know exactly when you will leave). This engine will then run with very little fuel and pump all the heat into the car. Absolutely no need to fire up 200+ hp for some heat. I think the same systems also exist in the states, over here in Germany the company "Webasto" is making these very successfully.
The remote starte reminds me of a story I read in Ralph "Sonny" Bargers book "Hells Angels". Back in the 60's or 8ß's there obviously was a cop who had a reputation with the Angels for being a tight investigator. He used to remote start his car (which was parked in his driveway) by standing far away from the car in a "secure" spot before getting in. Obviously afraid of car bombs. One morning when he started, the car roared up as usual. Too bad somebody had planted a bomb right in the "secure" spot where he used to stand when remoting the baby. He did not survive to tell anyone about it.
Financially Incompatible (Score:2, Insightful)
As far as leaving an entire key in place I guess that depends on the car and the kit your using. My Acura has one of the mentioned keys and when I looked into a remote start for it, I was told I needed to buy a spare key which would be disassembled to get just the coded portion out. I decided it wasn't for me.
But the point about cars being less hackable is valid. For years manufacturers have been making it harder to replace stock radios, and if you want to retain steering wheel controls your going to need lots of electrical tape and redbull.
I think Mercedes Benz has taken this to an entirely new level. New MB vehicles are incredibly difficult to steal thanks to their code hopping IR keys, so much so that the theft portion of insurance rates on them are down right cheap (which is good). But forget putting a remote starter in your brand new benz. Last time I tried counting there are 97 buttons within reach of the driver in the S class (I counted knobs as one switch even if they had more than one selectable position). All of this runs through a central computer in the car so basically if you want a different stereo system you better know german and feel like dumpster diving at MB headquarters.
Mercedes has a integrated cell phone system that comes with voice recognition. It uses a standard motorola timeport phone, identical in every sense except the firmware. Yet if I plug in my old timeport the car refuses to recognize it. Mercedes apparently thinks that the $87K you spend on the car with the phone isn't enough, they want the extra $450 for every phone you want to use in the car.
I'm currently trying to figure out how to get a copy of the firmware off the timeport that comes with the benz system so that I can put it on my original timeport.
This is quite sad, among manufacturers there is zero incentive or requirement to play nicely. I understand that they want to protect profit margins but its damn near predatory. There was an article on wired about some company offering a in car voice recognition system that works with bluetooth enabled cell phones. Great idea, too bad bluetooth is a technological unicorn and car manufacturers are bound to shut these guys out of the business.
Easy Fix (Score:2)
Have a child. They also mow lawns and do dishes.
Can't patent them though, my parents have prior art...
Carburetors, etc. (Score:2)
In an industry that had seen very few true innovations for 70 years (disc brakes being just about the only automotive hardware invented since the 30s), computers have completely revolutionized just about every system in an autombile. As a result, cars are cleaner, more efficient, more reliable, more comfortable and safer than would have been possible with entirely mechanical systems.
You seem to argue there are fewer people customizing their cars. I think there are just fewer shade-tree mechanics doing what's now unnecessary maintenance: Replacing points and distributors that don't exist anymore, spark plugs that now last 100k miles, adjusting timing that's automatically adjusted, etc.
What about the hot-rodders who customized their cars? I'd argue there are just as many of them as there ever were. The modifications just require a different skill set than they used to, and the cars are Civics and Integras instead of Novas and Mustangs.
If you want to get into customizing your car, there's plenty you can still do from high-tech "superchips" to good old-fashioned intake & exhaust mods. Just pull your head out of that 20-year-old Chilton's manual if you want to get serious about souping up a late-model car.
There ARE thriving car-hacking cultures! (Score:2, Informative)
Many other countries have a real strong culture in this area though. For an example, go to Autospeed [autospeed.com], an Australian site where they post weekly articles about auto performance and electronics hacking. Australia is a real hot-spot for this stuff. It doesn't matter that the auto manufacturers are making more complex and advanced products - it just promotes the creation of more brilliant hacks.
If you're interested in programable engine management, adding electonic accessories, etc. all you have to do is dig a little and you'll find a whole world of resources. Just like Tivo, DirectTV, Audrey, or anything else - If you build it people will hack it.
Hot rods (Score:2)
Luddites unite! (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd MUCH RATHER have a GOOD factory security system than a botched aftermarket one. (I've had 4 cars that had aftermarket systems installed by previous owners. ALL of them have caused more headaches than the 'security' they provided.)
Having any kind of security system will not likely prevent the really serious fella trying to seal your car. While you CAN buy LOJACK et al, they pretty much ensure you get back the bits and pieces you DON'T care about. By the time somebody recovers the professionally stolen car, all the nifty doodads have been stripped or broken.
I own Corvettes. (That my, ahem, other hobby) One's an 89 and the other's a 98 (OBD I and III) yeah they're more difficult to work on than the 76 Pontiac I _just_ got rid of, but no more so than working on computers. Often, that 'technological B$' folks complain about actually HELPS in diagnosing the problem.
If you aren't willing to spend time learning how to work on something, you probably oughtn'ta go at it uneducated.
As far as installing the remote starter, it didn't sound like you wanted it bad enough. IMHO, the one thing it MIGHT give you (remote starting) isn't worth the things you MIGHT get (wiring issues, intermittent gremlins, connections that don't AGE well.)
Honestly, a Nerd complaining about complexity on Slashdot...who'da thunk?
Build an EV/ Learn CAN (Score:2)
Many car manufacturers are moving to using industry standard buses and protocols (CAN and a couple of SAE standards) for internal communication. There is a lot of "wiggle" room for people to come up with Gizmos that attach to this hardware and do things the manufacturer never intended. For example.. many people love to have a tach, but many dashs lack them. The tach information is available on the computer/diagnostic bus, how about designing a simple PIC circuit to read the RPM message and display it on a LED display.
Lets face it.. hardware hacking in all its forms has gotton harder and harder for the last 20 years as more custom PLC and ASIC devices appear and Surface mount becuase the standard.
If you really want a challenge, convert your old gas powered car to electric [sover.net]. You'll end up with an extremely simple system you can work on yourself (only one moving part in an electric motor and no need for complex computers and emission controls) as well as a car that will get you to work in the worst weather, without the need to warm it up. (Just jump in and go, heat is electric and instantanous) and DC motors can really hual ass [nedra.com]. Oh.. and its non-polluting, so you can feel smug about never having to get a smog check again.
This was news..in 1985. (Score:2)
But how is this different than any other electronic consumer device? Nobody hacks up their PC motherboard or DVD player innards. And nobody complains about it either, not even the crazies who think that every corporate manuver is an encroachment on freedom of speech.
Oops, you gave me an opportunity (Score:2)
Second, I'd prefer a v-8 with rear drive. But with a family, a Mustang/Camaro doesn't cut it. So I'll be driving FWD I-4 or v-6 engines with tons of electronic controls.
Now, for just a handful of engines with which I am slightly familiar:
Zetec I-4 (ford focus): turbos, superchargers, nitrous.
Duratec v-6 (ford contour): superchargers (for some models), nitrous.
Honda I-4 (civics, CRV's): block and head upgrades, turbos, superchargers, more handling kits and brake kits than you can shake a stick at.
VW 4's and 6's: see above.
See, there's tons of stuff available for certain cars. Real stuff. And of course, if you like remote starters, neon trim, and 100w headlights, you can always go to JC Whitney.
And if you want traditional cars, they are available aplenty. 60's Mustangs and Camaros. 80's BMWs. And if you like old iron, there are tons of component (kit) cars available. Any ford up to WWII. Almost any Chevy of the same vintage. I've seen kits to put a '55 chevy on a late model Caprice.
The enthusiast magazines have been asking this question for years. And the answer has always come back a resounding 'NO'.
Computer Controls are our Friends (Score:4, Insightful)
To use my own car as an example, there is a program that would allow me to modify the fuel tables, ignition tables and other operational parameters on the on-board computer using a standard PC (program: LS1Edit). This acheives the same thing as playing with the distributor dwell and carb mixture on an older engine, and then some.
Or, for the less adventurous, Hypertech [hypertech-inc.com] makes a device [hypertech-inc.com] that allows you to apply "macros" to the onboard computer, doing the same thing as LS1Edit, but to a lesser degree.
Further, modern cars (with the appropriate computer hacks) still respond quite nicely to the old-school tricks: headers, camshafts, intakes, strokers, blowers, etc. It's like having the best of both worlds - the reliability and economy of computer control, and the performance and "hackability" of old-school tricks.
It all comes down to learning new rules to play the same old game.
A few thoughts (Score:2, Interesting)
Similarly the computer hackery of yore has passed from sight, only to be replaced with OC madness, case modification, heavy-duty server setups in one's broom closet, and so on..
It used to be that hackers would race hard-drives across table tops, and race Mustangs down the main drag. Now, the script-kiddies and rice-boys put skins on their virus generators and Acura Type R stickers on their Dodge Neons!!!
Flash has replaced content. It's all about appearances, and who cracks first.. Neon light kits under the chasis of either your Dell or your Civic warn that you are clearly a force to be reckoned with.. A 40 pound spoiler and a muffler the size of a coffee can are the automotive equivalent of running an animated desktop hack or semi-transparent windows - performance be damned!!
Just as in computing, auto-hacking has simply grown, and become so widely exposed that it's attracted it's own brand of poseur. There's the wankers who put stickers on their cars, because race cars have stickers, so stickers turn mom's old beater into a renegade from Indy.. There's the wankers who assign unique audio events to every window action and have true-color, animated mouse pointers.
Then there are guys who rewire their own auto audio systems, making sure the trunk DOES NOT rattle when they turn the music up, and those who put performance parts in and then actually USE them in motocross events. These are the overclockers and liquid-coolers of the auto-hacking world.
Take a look at the Honda Insight [arstechnica.com], and note the very cool side-mirror to LCD screen hack.. There is still auto-hacking.. But like real PC hacking, it takes effort, perseverence and creativity.
Some cars are more hackable, e.g. VW (Score:4, Interesting)
There is a big market in reprogramming or replacement ECM chips... I can easily get another 40hp and perhaps better millege by going down this route. The hp can be increased further with turbo replacements, etc, but apparently, you start having to make other big changes for the car to handle 200+hp.
Take a look around http://www.clubb5.com/ [clubb5.com] for some ideas... these B5 Passats are very hackable. Whether it's just plugging a laptop into the VAG-COM thing and re-programming the locks, or wiring in new tools like The Alien, or putting in Xenon lights and the Audi sport suspension.
If you need a remote starter... (Score:2)
:-)
Believe me, I know your pain, I just moved 900 miles south of where I used to live. I am getting spoiled awfully quickly with upper 70 degree temps in December... I don't think you could get me back up north for anything now.
Settable Parameters (Score:2, Insightful)
I personally hate the lighting systems that act like your mom. I don't want my lights on during the day. I also want the dome light to go off immediately when I shut off the car, unless I intervene. I also don't want the @$%# locks to lock every time the car goes off->on and vice versa.
Add to that the ability to turn on/off the chipped key requirement and whatever else isn't absolutely required for the car to run.
Would it be so hard to allow the owner to chose?
OBD-3 and big brother (Score:5, Informative)
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OBD-III TECHNOLOGIES
Three ways to send/receive data:
Roadside reader
Local station network
Satellite
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That's right, a radio link to tell big brother where you are, and what your car is doing. Why??
---
ENFORCEMENT MECHANISMS
Incorporate into biennial I/M program
Read fault code to screen for vehicles that need complete testing
Pass or short test for vehicles with no fault code
Does not speed up repair process
Out-of-cycle inspection
Compile and screen data
Mail notice to vehicle owner requiring out-of-cycle inspection within 10 days
Require Certificate of Compliance (C of C) on next registration/resale, or
Require C of C within 30-60 days, with citation for noncompliance
Enforce citation via court and/or DMV penalty at next registration
Roadside Pullover
CHP flags down vehicles with fault codes
Technician verifies problem by inspecting and/or testing vehicle
Issuance of notice requiring out-of-cycle inspection
Same enforcement (C of C
---
On the other hand they also realise that there are legal issues by this statement on their site.
---
OBD-III raises 4th Amendment search and seizure privacy issues:
''The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated...''
---
But afterwards state that the OBD system should be leagal because it's a nondiscrimitory, mass population product. Whereas the 4th amendment only protects individual privacy and not a group of individuals.
Read more about this at
Sema web site [sema.org]
Complicated? Yes; Impossible? No (Score:3, Insightful)
To be fair about it, Honda had a big problem with theft. It's no secret that the engine computer is the final frontier of anti-theft technology. How can anyone critize Honda for addressing the problem?
Car hacking is not dead, but it requires more ingenuity than it used to. I remember the old days when I upgraded my home computer by soldering additional memory chips on top of the onboard memory. Just because I can't do that with a modern motherboard, does that make it "unhackable"?
Ever hear of OBD-II? (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, since 1996, every car sold in America has required OBD-II compliance, which dictates a requirement for an interface to the engine management computer that adheres to certain government standards. As a result, with a Palm Pilot and a $200 cable, anyone can pull all sorts of nifty information from any modern car's engine computer. Not exactly "a bunch" of electronic gear, when the whole setup fits in a jacket pocket.
One could argue that such standards are pro-competition, since one doesn't need a bunch of specialized equipment for each manufacturer (the situation prior to OBD-II). No need for a Ford computer tool, a GM computer tool, a BMW computer tool, etc...
In short, you can still work on your own car. Just like 50 years ago, you can't do anything without the proper tools. Just happens that the tools are electronic now, rather than mechanical.
And, like many people are going to tell you, if you don't like it, buy a TR6 and shut the hell up.
Let me show you the way to VATS bypass (Score:3, Interesting)
Most remote start kits should come with several resistors for just this reason.
BTW, car audio/security/sales was my profession for 6 years. Back in those days, we cursed the big 3 daily for their "new innovations" that made our jobs harder.
Yup. (Score:3, Insightful)
Cars are not meant to be toys anymore. If you really insist on playing with your car, buy an old mustang that you don't need to worry about.
Re:One hint (Score:2, Funny)
Re:When Hacking Included a Hacksaw... (Score:2)
I absolutely agree here. There was a time when doing your own basic car maintentance was pretty easy to figure out on your own. Every car worked in pretty much the same way, and if you had even a little help you could do your own basic engine, heating/cooling and electrical work.
Anything you couldn't do in your driveway you could do in a pay-per-day gararge with rented tools.
Do those even exist anymore? I've read about them but I've never seen even one (in my short life = )
-q
Re:A better question (Score:2, Informative)
That person wouldn't exactly be a car thief, now, would he? He'd be a CD thief.
There isn't much that's going to deter busting out windows. Hell, if someone really really wanted to do it without getting busted, a pair of rubber gloves, a slingshot, and a rock would suffice. Then they wouldn't even have to be next to it, and the evidence left behind is negligible.
Car antitheft systems are designed to protect the car itself from physically being driven from one point to another without the owner's consent. Whether that be by immobilization or by making the car more attention getting (lights, horn, etc), its main purpose is to ensure the car stays in one spot.
Tow truck drivers, those are the guys you need to look out for.
Re:An interesting combination (Score:2)
That doesn't mean much though. Garage doors aren't replaced as often as cars, I suspect that many people that bought the very first generation of garage door openers still have them installed.
Nailed in the Head (Score:2)
Since when do dealerships make decisions in the design of engine components? There are many reasons for why cars are designed the way they are, but they do not include forcing you to go back to the dealership for service. The giveaway is that the auto manufacturers don't make any money from a dealership's service department (other than for parts, and most independent mechanics will use factory parts for most repair jobs anyway) so there's no economic drive for carmakers to design in such things.
P.S. The "module" necessary to reset the service light on a BMW was also referred to in some circles as a "screwdriver", which can be had from select non-BMW vendors, I believe.
Virg
Close but Not Quite (Score:2)
Virg