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Review: ZapStation Media Box

CmdrTaco posted more than 12 years ago | from the shoehorning-it-all-into-one-box dept.

Hardware 131

I've been excited about the ZapStation since I first saw it at ALS a few years ago. At the time it was at a good price point, and appeared to be a solid contender for the convergence media box that I crave. It took more then a year for them to release a product and for me to formulate an opinion. Now's your chance to read it. Don't get excited all at once now.

Let me get this out of the way right up front. It's just too damn expensive. They want $1500 for what is essentially just a stripped-down PC with a 30-gig hard drive. You're paying twice what you would pay to build this system yourself. You're paying that premium to get a nice pretty box to put into your stereo rack, and for software that ties the whole thing together. Now I'm a vain person and will pay extra to have something pretty in my stereo, but not $1500.

The device itself is designed to be that media convergence box that will change the world. Sorta. It is a sort of swiss army knife for media. It connects to your TV (but has SVGA output too) and ethernet. It has a webbrowser, the ability to stream a variety of video and audio sources. It can play DVDs. It can rip CDs. It can import them from an FTP server. You can snarf MPEGs and watch them easily on your TV. It has a wireless keyboard as well as a regular remote so you can control it easily from your couch.

The ZapStation has an optical audio cable, as well as standard RCA audio ports (although only one will work at a time and you need to power cycle to activate the other). It has composite and S-VHS video outs (same note about power cycling) as well as SVGA. And ethernet.

Let's talk about what most people will use this box for: Ripping CDs and playing MP3s. It works quite well for this. Ripping is quick and several options are provided for ripping into MP3 or WMA formats. The ethernet port happily uses DHCP and handles CDDB lookups on the tracks. Nice and simple. You can rip CDs and play them back at the same time, but doing so reduces the rip process to 1x. Normally it rips twice that fast. Simply playing CDs is easy and they sound good.

Fetching audio from other sources is not so simple. You use FTP, but I had problems using anonymous FTP servers. It didn't like symlinks very much. And trying to do larger imports caused the whole unit to freeze up solid and require a power cycle. Very bad.

Eventually I had to import MP3s in blocks of a few hundred megs at a time just to prevent the machine from hanging. Very uncool.

My imported tracks lost their order. They all had ID3 tags and every MP3 player I know of respects those numbers... but importing a couple hundred albums only to lose the order of the songs is very annoying. Ripped CDs retained their order just fine. Once while importing tracks I somehow got out of the import menu. From then on, I couldn't do anything because I was importing -- but I couldn't stop importing because I couldn't go back to the import menu! Only a power cycle fixed it!

It has USB ports for future expandibility and hopefully for feeding MP3 portables. I don't have anything to test, which doesn't matter because I don't think the current version supports much.

Playing back audio is relatively easy. You navigate to my audio, and select playlists or albums or artists. There is no easy way to say 'Shuffle my entire collection' -- which I find annoying since that is how I usually listen to music. I like not hearing the same song for weeks at a time. Nifty little visualization graphics are available, but I sure wish they were fancier then they are, and included an option for full screen visualization.

I wish they were available for the regular CD player too -- the box really separates audio types, but to a user sound should just be sound and managed and played back in the same ways. The worst part is that I hear a 'pop' in between each track when listening to audio from the optical cable. Amazingly annoying. If they had the functionality of xmms-crossfade it would be super smooth.

There are a lot of problems with the UI. The screen is cluttered and it is sometimes difficult to figure out where you are going. Some simple changes (making the menu font bigger for example) would help, but it's just confusing since audio sources (streams, local mp3s, CDs) are all in separate parts of the system instead of clustered together. If I want music, I should be presented with my music, and not be forced to worry about the source. As an experiment I unplugged the ethernet, and was unable to navigate menus to the DVD player.

There are other problems too, like there is no good concept of a queue, so once you start a playlist (be it artist, genre, album, or playlist) you can't change it. So there's no way for me to queue up the next album I want to listen to without stopping the current playlist. Very frusterating.

The web browser works quite nicely. It's a little difficult to get used to it, but you can cook right along once you get used to not having a mouse. Most pages I visited rendered fine, although plug-ins cause problems. You can import audio and video very easily from the web.

Video playback is the unique thing here. You can store MPEG files just like MP3s and watch them on your TV. It does a pretty good job playing them back. I watched an MPEG of the Buffy musical a reader hooked me up with (I don't get UPN. Cursed cable company thinks UPN isn't a broadcast station like FOX and NBC so they want me to subscribe to 'Extended Basic Cable,' except that I have a dish. The FCC and the cable companies conspire to prevent me from watching my Buffy!) It's very convenient, and it looks as good as you would expect: the quality is dependant on the quality of the file you are playing back. There's not a lot of room on the box, so the fact that the video is organized as a simple list isn't a huge hindrence. It would get hard to find items in that list if you could fit more then a few dozen shows on the unit.

Notable here is the lack of formats. For a box like this, DivX, sorensen QuickTime, and Real should all be supported. But they aren't -- we just have MPEG. Supposedly at least some of these formats will be available later. But it's really unfortunate since these days MPEG is sort of bloated by the bitrate standards of the newer formats.

Lastly the unit functions as a DVD Player ... poorly. I found playback to be much brighter then my DVD player. Also it was pixelated and jerky. The audio quality was quite good, but my reciever was decoding the surround sound so its hard to mess that up :) The aspect ratio tool screws up non-anamorphic content. If you tell the system that you have a 16:9 screen, it slashes resolution on 4:3 content to make it fit ... which looks like crap if your TV can handle the translation itself. The lack of component output make this an even worse choice for DVD playback. Perhaps the box really could have shined had they opted for a progressive output.

I guess by this point you see where I'm going. There are a variety of things that can be improved in this unit, and many of them are software changes that will likely be rolled into future versions. I reported all of my bugs to Zap. The folks there are really nice and I'm sure the bugs will be fixed soon enough.

As it stands, if the ZapStation was $500, and the code was open source, I'd have no problem recommending this to someone who wanted to hack a bit. Or if you have tons of dough, and just want to rip your CDs and play them back, this is a very expensive but simple way to do it, but lockups and lack of track order made importing pretty crappy.

If you're a digital video junkie then this is a good system too, but 30G of disk space isn't much for digital video (my old 9 hour Tivo demonstrates that all to well).

Personally for my MP3 playback, a $300 PC, a $200 100G hard drive, and an AudioTron does most what this does and won't fill up any time soon. That leaves enough cash to buy a decent progressive DVD player. You could get a scan converter cheap and play back MPEGs and have 3x the space.

What could really make this worth it? The ability to rip DVDs would be amazingly cool in this box. And built in PVR functionality. And a 100G hard drive. Support for popular video formats. A touch pad on the keyboard would make navigation much easier. Progressive DVD playback and component video outs.

The box looks absolutely lovely, but the software is immature. And the pricing is that of a high end component ... and this just isn't that. The ZapStation is the jack of all trades, master of none.

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131 comments

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if you can read this, i'm not banned (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2670930)

gay boast

EMERGENCY.. READ THIS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671099)

i pooped on JonKatz's face

i just heard some great news on the radio, Jon Katz came out of the closet in his Nebraska home. even if you didn't like his books or movies, he is nice. the slashdot community licks him. truly an icon.

Sasha (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2670932)

Is my beeeeeaaaatch.

--kevin

I don't think so... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671687)

Sasha's MY bitch. Ask her about the ass-fucking I gave her the other night. Go on.. ask her..!

--dave

Hey! (-1)

j0nkatz (315168) | more than 12 years ago | (#2670941)

I got cha convergence product hanging right here!

Umm... (2)

skrowl (100307) | more than 12 years ago | (#2670944)

So what does it do that a computer + a video capture card can't do? ... ALOT cheaper I might add!

Re:Umm... (3, Interesting)

booch (4157) | more than 12 years ago | (#2670958)

Actually, it doesn't even do video capture.

Re:Umm... (1)

iforgotmyfirstlogon (468382) | more than 12 years ago | (#2670965)

Agreed.

I think you could pick up a comparable system at CircusShitty for about $450, and it would play games and/or run Linux to boot.

That would leave a spare grand in your wallet to buy anime DVD's (or what have you).

- Freed

Re:Umm... (5, Interesting)

biglig2 (89374) | more than 12 years ago | (#2670970)

It looks like a stereo component. So perhaps the answer is for some company to build cases that look like a stereo compnent for the build-your-own users. You could probably take a rack-mount case and do something similar?

Re:Umm... (1)

st0rmshad0w (412661) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671120)

I've been screaming for hardware makers to build stereo equipment style cases for years. The closest you get is NLX form factor "bookshelf" computers. I'd personally love a machine I could "hide" right with my stereo gear. If I had the cash I'd form a start-up myself. I bet I could snag at least 25% of slashdots readership without a problem, just on the "cool" factor.

Re:Umm... (1)

Tiroth (95112) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671324)

I'm taking the easy way out--my stereo components are all racked so I just need a pretty faceplate...the actual box behind can look like crap since you never see it.

Re:Umm... (4, Insightful)

alleria (144919) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671183)

Head over to AVSForum [avsforum.com] for a look at their HTPC (Home Theater PC) section, they already have some interesting sources.

These guys are, of couse, looking to build a pure home-theatre PC system (turns out software line-doubling is far cheaper than hardware line-doublers for their DVD players), but the problem with housing their PCs is the same. They've been looking into various cases and solutions that are worthy of sitting on their AV rack for a long time, and have come up with some good looking cases, as well as leads on where to source them.

Re:Umm... (1)

LordKariya (195696) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671313)

I already have this... A PC with Video Capture Card / Output Box, DVD drive, cd burner, and 100 gigs of space. Hooks right into the Receiver...

Thinkgeek (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2670952)

20 bucks says this is going to show up on thinkgeek, so this is yet another article plugging another OSDN site....

This probably wasn't a troll (0, Offtopic)

Frothy Walrus (534163) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671010)

look at the previous story: "VA Linux Now VA Software" [slashdot.org] . i bet you they didn't make the change because they had too much money...

does anyone put it past Slashdot to act as indirect advertising for VA and OSDN? why else would they own Slashdot in the first place?

Re:Thinkgeek (0, Offtopic)

Ledge (24267) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671089)

Generally, when I see a story like this, I'd agree with you. This time though, I see what appears to be a review of a piece of shit.

Prediction (5, Insightful)

onion2k (203094) | more than 12 years ago | (#2670973)

Its $1500 dollars now. In 3 months they'll drop that to around $799. And the Slashdot headline will read 'ZapStation now affordable'. This sort of market just begs for this kind of ploy. Sell way high to start with and recoup development costs from the early adopters with pots of cash (plus its Christmas), and then drop down to a sensible (?!) price.

The fact the media gives loads of free advertising to it when the initial production run is finished and the machine is market tested is the icing on the cake.

Examples where this has happened before? The Sony Clie, PSX, Dreamcast, PS2, lots of hifis.. if its desirable home entertainment, then this is the obvious sales plan.

Moral of the story? Wait and save.

Re:Prediction (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671000)

...or...

Slashdot is being paid to make the review.

Notice all the plugs lately, and VA stock rising?

Think about it....

i haven't noticed the VA stock rising (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671035)

maybe i just don't pay attention anymore

Re:Prediction (1)

nexthec (31732) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671825)

slashdot being payed to make a bad review, novel buisness idea

seen that before (2)

Alien54 (180860) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671279)

Heck I can remember when double speed CD players first came out. It was in April or May of whatever year it was at CompUSA. There was a combo package with 50 bazillion games and so on that cost for just under a Thousand dollars USA!

Fast forward to the month of August, the price was about 400 bucks, and so on.

I know this because I know of at least one guy who got nailed by this. (not me!) He wanted to get a refund from the store for the price drop, but they only did that for the first month, not the several that had past. The guy was seriously bummed out.

Re:Prediction (1)

BlueMonk (101716) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671403)

Unless you're referring to software, I don't believe this is the case for PS2. It was hard to get a hold of when it came out, which may have allowed certain people to sell their PS2 at higher prices, but I stood in line the day of release (no pre-orders) and got my PS2 at what I believe is still the official price. I don't remember now what that price was... I think maybe $299. Has the official price fallen? (I thought I would have noticed if it had.)

Re:Prediction (1)

Mark Pitman (1610) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671464)

From what I've read in the past, game consoles are pretty much always sold at a loss and the company makes their money licensing the boot loader to game makers.

Re:Prediction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671941)

It's known as "price-skimming" and is designed to take advantage of early adopters who want the newest thing no matter wha the cost. The price always drops later in an attempt to penetrate the rest of the market, it's a simple price discrimination technique to try to optimize the revenue brought in by each customer.

Another Zapstation post??? (0, Offtopic)

nikko (158280) | more than 12 years ago | (#2670980)

This is the second one in a few months. Fess up, are you guys getting paid by Zapatistas?

Wasn't this subject beat to death in the last post? Didn't the slashdotters overwhelming conclude that it's a wildly overpriced pc with video out?

Re:Another Zapstation post??? (1)

Volta (43850) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671054)

This is the second one in a few months. Fess up, are you guys getting paid by Zapatistas?

Did you actually read the review? It basically says that the thing is a piece of shit. If ZapMedia paid for this review, they should demand their money back.

not paid by "Zapatistas" (-1)

Sexual Asspussy (453406) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671072)

try "paid by VA Linux^H^H^H^H^HSoftware [yahoo.com] "

Re:not paid by "Zapatistas" (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671160)

How'd you do that, you evil bastard?!!!


And I concur with your assessement. If it can't record video input, is sux0r!

How'd you do that? (0)

stevenbee (227371) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671479)

look at the link properties, genius.

I remember seeing the Ass Station months ago (-1)

neal n bob (531011) | more than 12 years ago | (#2670999)

I first saw it in Roblimo's pants - he invited Jon Katz to sit on it

Specs (3, Informative)

BigRing (216273) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671018)

Here are some specs for the ZapStation.

http://www.zapmedia.com/products/specifications. ht ml

Meeting these specs could prove more challenging than one might think with "cheap PC hardware" and "a little software".

Re:Specs (2)

Tiroth (95112) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671245)

You might want to take those specs with a grain of salt though. 16bit audio S/N is listed at 96dB...i.e. 0% noise. Dynamic range is listed at 94dB. Unless they are using a new form of magical output stage, I find this somewhat difficult to believe. Can anyone cite an IC that has this kind of performance at 16-bit resolution?

Re:Specs (2, Interesting)

joetee (13215) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671743)

(I'm a HW engineer at ZapMedia)
"Can anyone cite an IC that has this kind of performance at 16-bit resolution?"
To have superior audio specs we use a custom audio board, not just a SB16.
The ZapStation uses a 24 bit resolution DAC. The Texas Instruments / Burr-Brown PCM1748 chip.
(Which are EXCELLENT I must add!)
It uses a 32 to 96 Khz clock depending on the data stream, and reproducing 16 bit 44/48 Khz CD audio is quite trivial for it. Remember that WMA _adds_ noise, and MP3's are compressed, so the ZapStation plays them about as truly as they possibly can.

FeeCee's sound & video cards are far noisier than a ZapStation in _every_ way including the fan(s)!!!

Joe Torre

Re:Specs (1)

tnak (163802) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671544)

Hard to beat? Not really.

Video:
  • Ati All-Wonder-Radeon beats their video specs including time shifting.
  • Pricewatch prices starting at $145 for oem.

Audio:
  • Midiman Audiophile 2496.
  • J and R price == $169

The rest is just a basic Celeron box. Admittedly, $750 might be pushing it a little with the high end audio, but at least with this box you could upgrade individual components.

Strom Thurmond, politician, alive at 99 (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671025)

I just heard some great news on the radio, south carolina senator Strom Thurmond is 99 in his south carolina, even if you didn't like his books or movies, he is 99. i'm sure the slashdot community likes him. truly an american icon.

Missing functionality (2, Interesting)

Outland Traveller (12138) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671027)

If someone from Zap is reading this, what I would like is for it to support the ogg/vorbis audio format, use DivX for video ripping, and have some kind of "expert-level" access to the underlying OS for people that want to tweak it. Oh, and get the price down under 800$.

All your convergence media boxen belong to: (4, Insightful)

swordboy (472941) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671033)

The Xbox is the end of it for everyone in the convergence media box solution business. Think about it. Microsoft was the only one smart enough to use a console to promote DirectX (read:Windows). Now that Xbox is trickling out, they can begin working on PVR features. After that, they can start pushing the box to cablecos and satellite TV providers (provider?). They've got the money to subsidize the product down to the lowest common denominator. Anyone who is anyone will require one to watch and record TV, view DVDs, play video games, manage digital media and communicate with the rest of the convergence that is on the horizon.

Did anyone not see this coming? The Indrema thingy was the only other box close to what Xbox will do. The fact that the company died and threw all development away leads me to believe that there was Microsoft involvement.

Indrema never had a good business model... (2, Insightful)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671095)

As much as I liked the idea of the Indrema, I never read ANYTHING that suggested there was any business potential. Just sounded like two garage guys with an enthusiastic idea that they thought would magically take off.

I seriously doubt Indrema was ever on Microsoft's radar. As a gamer *I* wasn't even interested in the thing. I just thought it'd be cool to poke around it.

I highly doubt Microsoft had anything to do with it's failure. Indrema basically self destructed.

Re:Indrema never had a good business model... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671515)

As did Nestscape and Borland. Is it actually SO hard to believe that MS may have just been nothing more than the least stupid of all the stupidly run computer companies with geeks in management?

Re:All your convergence media boxen belong to: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671320)

Microsoft was the only one smart enough to use a console to promote DirectX (read:Windows).

Just because my grandfather didn't rape the environment and exploit the workers doesn't make me a peasant. And it's not that he didn't want to rape the environment and exploit the workers, I'm sure he did.

It's just that as a barber, he didn't have that much opportunity!

Why in gods name would anyone else be SMART to promote Direct X? Only Micosoft has the money to lose $200 bucks on every Xbox. Microsoft has to do it because their not good enough to earn it. They can't just push their competitors around in the game arena!

Re:All your convergence media boxen belong to: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671502)

Well them and sony and Nintendo and Sega and all the others that came before...

Re:All your convergence media boxen belong to: (1)

nanojath (265940) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671348)

Good and true except for one thing... Cable and Sattelite companies are the sworn enemies of PVR manufacturers because they are seeking totally different behaviors from their customers... Heehee unless of course Microsoft colludes with them to install anti commercial skipping software in the X-Box at which point they're at odds with THEIR customers... Of course if all digital broadcast starts going out in CSS then according to the courts we can't do shit except watch it the way they pipe it... It's pretty complicated, it's far from a done deal yet.

Re:All your convergence media boxen belong to: (1)

Pope (17780) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671514)

Cable and Sattelite (sic) companies are the sworn enemies of PVR manufacturers

Except Bell Canada! Their recent dish commercial feauture a PVR prominently.
"Hey Joe what are you doing?"
"Going home, watch some TV."
"But what's on at this hour?"
"Anything I want."
Cut to Joe at home cueing up his PVR menu and selecting some show.

As I said in a previous thread, I'd love to get ahold of a cheap PVR, no extra 'learning' or other feature's I'll NEVER use, just to reduce the wear on my VCR. Most of what I use it for these days is just time-shifting anyways, so why not go digital?

I'm still investigating some USB-TV dealies, but need Mac compatibility. I think ATI has one...

Re:All your convergence media boxen belong to: (2)

swordboy (472941) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671540)

Cable and Sattelite companies are the sworn enemies of PVR manufacturers

This is good news for Microsoft because they can leverage Windows Media and licensing issues. Everyone is happy and Microsoft just strengthened their operating system.

Re:All your convergence media boxen belong to: (2)

monkeydo (173558) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671732)

Cable and satelite companies are all over building PVRs into their boxes. Don't confuse these companies with the networks that make most of their money from advertisers. The Cable and Satelite companies will be on board with _anything_ they can sell you.

PVR on XBox? I don't think so....: (1)

Fenris2001 (210117) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671381)

... not with only a 10gig drive! Plus, remember that the XBox is currently a "loss leader" - MS loses money on each box sold until sales are in the millions (Sony JUST started making money on PSones). MS hopes to make money on the GAMES, not the HARDWARE. There's no incentive for them to bring out a competing product (Call it XBox Converge, or something else silly), for YEARS.

Re:PVR on XBox? I don't think so....: (2)

Alsee (515537) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671443)

There's no incentive for them to bring out a competing product (Call it XBox Converge, or something else silly), for YEARS.

Microsoft is a SOFTWARE company. They are losing money on the hardware because they want to be able to sell you software. The "XBox Converge" will be a software update. If it requires new hardware to function, it will be a plug-in. Not a new console.

-

Re:PVR on XBox? I don't think so....: (1)

MarkLR (236125) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671900)

The XBox does not have the hardware features to act as a competitor to the Tivo, for example the HD is too small and there is no video capture. Producing a second box that combines the functionality of the XBox and their Ultimate TV might be a worth it but having all your entertainment served by one box would cause problems if anything broke or you wanted to upgrade one feature.

Re:PVR on XBox? I don't think so....: (2)

swordboy (472941) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671567)

There's no incentive for them to bring out a competing product

Every game that is made for Xbox becomes tied to a proprietary graphics platform. That is lots of incentive as every game sold pads the Microsoft operating system.

S-VHS video? (1)

mberman (93546) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671041)

s-vhs would be that high-definition video tape technology that failed enormously because each take cost $50. i think you just mean "s-video"

Re:S-VHS video? (OT) (2)

TotallyUseless (157895) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671394)

yes, I think he meant s-video, but fyi, s-vhs didnt fail miserably, it just didnt have a place in the consumer market. it has been *widely* used in tv/broadcast industry for a long time. It is getting a bit long in the tooth now that more and more digital solutions are coming to market, but at this point I think it is still pretty much the standard, at least for most smaller/local tv stations. I have a cabinet full of about 50 of them I inherited from an x-girlfriend who was a producer.
sorry for the offtopic reply...

Re:S-VHS video? (OT) (1)

mcj (21934) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671492)

I thought they mostly used betamax.

PS - Shiner Blonde kicks some ass as well.

Re:S-VHS video? (OT) (1)

PeteEMT (92003) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671733)

Betamax equipment tends to be more towards high-end broadcast equipment.

an S-VHS Camera Setup for Electronic News Gathering can be assembled for a couple thousand dollars, so it tends to be favored by smaller stations/college production courses (where I used it) etc

S-VHS alive and well (1)

Visoblast (15851) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671398)

S-VHS didn't fail, but it isn't used much by people who aren't demanding of video quality. S-VHS VCR's are no longer very expensive (under $150 at entry level), and the tapes aren't anywhere near $50, try $5.

I use S-VHS, and I like it very much. It records an S-Video signal, which likely has something to do about the S-VHS S-Video confusion.

BTW: VHS sucks. S-VHS is much better.

Whoa, slow down cowboy! (1, Offtopic)

sharkey (16670) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671048)

You've already posted this story [slashdot.org] to this "news"board.

Re:Whoa, slow down cowboy! (1)

LoadStar (532607) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671240)

You've already posted this story to this "news"board.

For the reading impaired, I will quote from the aforementioned story...

  1. I have a model for review coming my way so I'll give a detailed report when I have time to plug it in and give it a beating.

The poster promised a review. This is the review. What's the problem? Yes, he mentioned it was coming out in the last article. In this article, he has one and has used it, and posted his thoughts after using it.

My only question is why this company chose not to include even a rudimentary DVR (Digital Video Recorder) type technology into it. If it hooks up to the TV, and has a hard drive, one would think that a basic DVR functionality would not be too terribly hard.

Follow your own link (1)

cdrudge (68377) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671243)

If you would follow your own link, you would have seen that it was an announcement that it was being released and that CT would be getting a review up once he had played around with his review unit. I realize that /. has a tendency to repost the same articles. This time he was just following through with what he said he would do. Give them a break.

exactly how would having the source improve it? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671057)

Do you really think having the source
would improve the product?

Give me a break!

I want to buy something that plugs
in and works.

I don't want something I can buy
and fix myself.

They should just make it work right in the first
place.

Not necessarily open source, but something like CE (1)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671119)

This is the type of appliance that really needs a CE like OS running it. I have computers in my apartment acting as appliances right now. For example, I have a PVR I built up just so I can keep up on my favorite TV shows, then archive them to CD so I can drag them out next year and watch them again.

I *could* have bought a Tivo to do this, but my needs were that I could archive them and come back to them later, something a Tivo doesn't let me do.

The main drawback is that it is still... a PC. If something goes wrong, it takes roughly 30 seconds for it to come back up. Is this a bad thing? Well I'm not really complaining, particularly because the OS I'm running is rock solid.

If I could do the same thing with CE, then a power cycle would be 5 seconds. Now *that* would be really cool. I still have the ability to upgrade it to new technologies, but the OS itself is more suited to appliance technology.

Like or hate CE, it is cool to have a PC that comes on within moments.

Open Source is stupid... a tool of the communist (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671139)

it will never work... it sucks... it's non-profitable.. the idea is ridiculous and stupid... screw Open Source..

Re:exactly how would having the source improve it? (2)

Jeremi (14640) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671284)

Do you really think having the source would improve the product? [...] I don't want something I can buy and fix myself. They should just make it work right in the first place


So you buy your closed-source product, and it works as advertised. Then one morning you have an idea... "it would be SO great if only I could make it do X".... and your write the company asking them to implement feature X. 2 years later, you're still waiting for feature X--and if it ever does appear, you'll probably have to buy the new model to use it anyway ($$$).


Contrast that with the open-source product. You buy one, and it works as advertised. One morning you have your idea. You go on the web, and at www.openzapstation.com, you find that some geek has had the same idea and already uploaded a patch that implements that feature. You download and install the patch, and the next day you have your feature X.


That is how open source improves a product.

Apples & oranges, baby! (1)

beer_maker (263112) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671902)

Hey, wipe the OpenSourceHappyDust(tm) out of your eyes, you're missing the point. The esteemed AC wants an appliance!

AC said: Do you really think having the source would improve the product? ... I want to buy something that plugs in and works. I don't want something I can buy and fix myself. They should just make it work right in the first place.

Your reply assumes that everything will be addressable in software. What about hardware changes? How will Open Source software make a difference if I what I want is a way to control the box using Bertrol Rays? It's irrelevant, isn't it?

More importantly, is it too much to ask for a finished product, that doesn't require tweaking of ANY part, just to perform when purchased?

Jeremi said: Contrast that with the open-source product. You buy one, and it works as advertised.
If you read the review, in this case, the device doesn't work as advertised (that is, simply, easily, and correctly, given it's relatively high price.) That's why it wasn't recommended for purchase.

Re:exactly how would having the source improve it? (2)

Tiroth (95112) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671301)

It would be nice to have access to quality hardware though. I'm currently interested in an A/V computer, but it is difficult to find quality I/O cards. A GeForce with Powerstrip is a great HDTV output device, but there are few options other than SDI for inputting high-quality video, and it would be nice to have CVBS, Y/C, SDTV component, S/PDIF etc all in one place for easy hacking.

What we really need is someone to put together a cheap input solution around a TI or Analog Devices video decoder (pref. with component in) and a Conexant chip. This would provide an input solution up there with the quality of the Rock, with no need to write additional software drivers.

BTW, anyone know of a Conexant-chipset card that has Y/C input and is not plagued by Macrovision problems? I'd like to use Dscaler [dscaler.org] but I want DVD and VHS input, without buying a Sima SCC or a hackable DVD player.

Re:exactly how would having the source improve it? (2)

Christopher B. Brown (1267) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671578)

Having sources available means that somebody who's interested and capable that is independent of the vendor can do something about improving things.

Certainly, it's good for the thing to "work right in the first place;" that goes without saying. (Well, what with Microsoft's "beta-testing" of insecure software, that doesn't go without saying...)

If sources are available, and it's easy enough for some folks to demonstrate improvements, this can feed back to "sheeple consumers" in as simple a way as SHAME. If significant improvements can be demonstrated by outsiders, that can SHAME the vendor into providing the improvements to their customers. It's not guaranteed; life doesn't quite work that way.

More useless 1 size fits all devices (5, Insightful)

Ledge (24267) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671075)

People do not want a one component does everything system. Look at the el-cheapo stereo systems on the market. What do they all have in common? CD, cassette, tuner and all in one enclosure. Decent equipment is separate, as it should be. Say a better DVD system arrives in 2 years, but I already have a kick ass sound system. Why would I want to replace everything? Putting everything in one box is foolish. Do one thing, and do it well. A digital music system shouldn't try and do what a TiVO or a DVD player does. Granted, they share the similarities in hardware and media, but combining the two will only lead to mediocrity for both. Thats why my TiVO doesn't have a VCR deck in it, and my TV doesn't have a built in VCR.

Re:More useless 1 size fits all devices (5, Insightful)

Bangback (471080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671218)

I disagree. Look how popular the tiny, fairly high quality (for their market/price range) "executive stereos" are. Interfaces make things harder for users, demand a more difficult user interface, (and for us high end) require very expensive cabling. Having Dolby Digital decoding on the DVD player (which saved significantly on the amp) means I have about $200 in cables (70% of the player price) on the back end.

Why do I buy integrated amps instead of amps/preamps? Because I can find the same quality in a unified package which is at a lower price (largely due to case/sales/interconnects). For amps, why do people buy 5-channel amps instead of single channel monoblocks? Price.

Integration is only suitable for stable technologies. In a fast changing market I'm glad I have a nonintegrated DVD since I can swap it out for a new progressive/DTS after two years. But VCRs haven't changed meaningfully in over a decade. So I'm perfectly happy with my TV/VCR combo in my bedroom that's been running fine for a decade. The user interface on the combos are far, far better than a normal VCR and TV. You hit play the VCR plays, hit stop and you're back on TV changing channels. My parents have an expensive VCR in their living room they haven't used for years because control is too difficult -- but the el cheapo combo in the kitchen is used everyday.

The other advantage of an integrated box in this scenario is shared infrastructure. Your VCR and TV have no common parts, but your Tivo, MP3 audio component, internet video component, digital radio component all share a hard disk, processor, etc. Therefore the potential cost savings are far greater, especially for high-cost items like networking or high-quality video interfaces.

Re:More useless 1 size fits all devices (1)

Ledge (24267) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671287)

You make a valid point, but I would also offer, in this disposable society that we live in, if one component in a unitized system croaks, all of the related components also die.

Re:More useless 1 size fits all devices (2)

Surak (18578) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671688)

True, but how important this is to you depends on how often you upgrade. If you're upgrading every couple of years, this is not as much of a concern if you're one of those people who wait every 5 or 10 years to get something new.

And if you're one of those people, this product isn't for you anyway.

Re:More useless 1 size fits all devices (1)

devaldez (310051) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671605)

Yeah, you are right about the technology convergence, but for people who would be willing to pay >$400, they likely already have a DVD player and/or a CD player, so now you have redundancy in your system.

Alternatively, you have a new system purchaser and the incremental benefit of the device is minimal (yeah, you can rip on the device and read USA Yesterday news). It's going to be a tough sell.

Better to take one of the MP3 server appliances and add ripping software and a graphical output for control and be done with it...sell it for an incremental cost of $100 (cost of SW and video), so figure it is a $600 box. Now you're getting to a price sweet-spot as well as not duplicating components with inferior versions at high cost.

Just IMHO.

Dave

Re:More useless 1 size fits all devices (1)

fatboy1234 (542091) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671354)

i believe that the only succesful device that can do more than one thing is the clock radio.

everything else has failed!

Lame... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671136)

I'd rather have an electric pencil sharpener.

make life easier (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671150)

why not just buy a top of the line computer... Dell preferably... get a card that supports s-video... use your nice Altec Lansing (or Jensen/harmon kardon/etc..) speakers with them... and boom... instant DVD player, CD player, MP3 player, VHS (if you're 1337) you CAN do it with a tape drive, am i missing anything else?

WMA? (3, Interesting)

Levine (22596) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671177)

The specifications page [zapmedia.com] lists the device as running Linux, and has WMA in the list of Supported Formats under audio/video playback and audio recording. From what I've heard on here, I thought this was all but impossible. Confirmations?

Cheers,
levine

Re:WMA? (1)

Arkham (10779) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671208)

No, it is running Linux (originally based off Red Hat, but not looking much like it anymore), and it has real WMA codecs licensed from Microsoft. The box played REALMedia at one point too, but Real wouldn't sign a reasonable licensing deal.

WMV Also! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671430)

Even more surprising is it's running Linux and supports Windows Media Video also. From what I've seen on Windows, WMV is a really nice format. Maybe we'll see a player for Linux someday???

Inside the company (5, Informative)

Arkham (10779) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671189)

I used to work for ZapMedia. It's a great company, but (at least until recently) a very poorly-led one. While I was there the company went from 40 people to 120 and then down to 20. They blew through some $20 million in capital. I was laid off in the 5th round of layoffs (can you believe that)?

We were almost bought out several times. The box was even going to be marketed as a Harmon Kardon DMC-100 [harmankardon.com] box, until we ran out of money and decided to keep the profit margins. We talked to several companies (who I should not mention since I could get sued), but every one of the deals fell through. One of the companies even has a competing box on the market now. Another one has a PVR box for sale, which is something we all wanted to be added to the Zapstation.

When I left in September, the box still crashed a lot. I wish them the best of luck. From the sound of this review, they're going to need it.

Re:Inside the company (1)

LoadStar (532607) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671273)

One of the companies even has a competing box on the market now.

Could this mysterious other company possibly be Hewlett-Packard [hp-at-home.com] ? (Hint to Slashdot - I'd like to see a review of this next.)

Another one has a PVR box for sale, which is something we all wanted to be added to the Zapstation.

Umm - well then why didn't they add this in? It seems like a natural.

Re:Inside the company (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671684)

It takes a LOT of effort to produce a PVR and do it well. Just the fact that TiVo is a company that does nothing but make PVR software should be evidence enough.

Post as Anonymous Coward (1)

Jeppe Salvesen (101622) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671690)

Of course we're curious. If you're afraid of legal repercussions, post as AC. That's why they allow anonymous posting in the first place!

And the point of this device is....? (1)

Kaa (21510) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671199)

So what exactly does it do that my PC doesn't?

(in case you are wondering, yes, my video card has a TV-out).

CrapStation! (1)

ksw2 (520093) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671202)

Let's talk about what most people will use this box for: Ripping CDs and playing MP3s. It works quite well for this

Holy cow, like I'm going to pay over a thousand dollars for these "innovative" features? If I really wanted to mix my living room life with my comptuer room life, I'd just move the TV in the computer room (or vice versa).

It's almost as if this whole convergence motif is starting to mean redundant electronics. I wish we would see more small, cheap devices that work well together (like UNIX!) instead of cramming do-it-all computers in every conceivable nook and cranny. This particular paradigm shift can shift right along with me...

Target Audience (1)

shlamo (541027) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671220)

I went to the website [zapmedia.com] expecting to see this amazing product that he talked about. Instead I am greeted with yuppies relaxing on their plush red couch, a "Back to the Future" clad Michael Fo... Er Connie Chung, and Andre the Giants son trying to "sell" me their product.

Frankly, I was a bit scared by their index webpage. Their front page should focus more on their product rather than having weird people trying to make the product seem enjoyable. Show me that it's enjoyable in other ways, with more info, interactive demos, reviews and pricing. I want to feel like I can relate to this product (by having a need for it in my house/office/etc.) instead I feel like I'm not the target audience they're trying to reach.

Laptop and ShowShifter (2, Insightful)

little_id (513727) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671241)

Sounds like you could use a laptop and Show Shifter [showshifter.com] . This allows you to use it as a PVR, play MP3's. You could always download some sort of MP3 / DVD ripper / encoder. Use this with IrMan [evation.com] and any remote. And you have pretty much the same thing.

Plus with a laptop you can take it to your friends and move it anywhere else in the house. And any recorded shows can be watched on the move.

Taco: please define 'frusterating' -nt (1)

llamalicious (448215) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671258)

-nt

Re:Taco: please define 'frusterating' -nt (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671530)

According to dictionary.com...

frusterate
tr.v. frusterated, frusterating, frusterates

To cause feelings of discouragement or bafflement of such a degree that one cannot spell correctly.

Re:Taco: please define 'frusterating' -nt (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671614)

yeah baby!
LOL

Well, there is the media-box (1)

Invalidator (444283) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671347)

Over at www.media-box.org [media-box.org] they've got what looks like a more mature product than this, though, alas, it runs only on (yeeech) Windows (/yeeech). There are also a couple of projects over at Sourceforge.

Yes, you need to have your own hardware for these, but I see that as a benefit rather than a drawback. For example, I don't live in NTSC-land. So, that makes the ZapStation unavailable to me. But, with Media-box, that's no problem.

Also, with Open Source projects (like Sourceforge and, I believe, Media-Box), if you don't like something, you can just replace it or improve it.

I would think these solutions would also cost a lot less that U$1500.

linux machine? (1)

deviantonline (542095) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671351)

i think its funny that this machine runs on linux yet it boasts about being able to play windows media files...

The Convergence Media Box already exists (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671360)

It's called an Apple PowerMac G4 Cube

Uh. (2)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671635)

There are a lot of 'boxes' that do convergance. the G4 cube was never meant for the livingroom.

No way (2)

DunkPonch (215121) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671362)

Simply playing CDs is easy and they sound good.

Sorry, but I'm an audio electronics engineer. Simply put, I really don't think such a compact "Swiss Army Knife" box is capable of producing decent CD sound. Maybe it's "good" compared to MP3s (*gag*), but it will almost certainly pale in comparison to high-end CD players.

Methinks Taco is getting kickbacks on ZapStation sales. "Think geek", indeed.

You dummy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671392)

"It sucks, it didn't keep my songs in order"
"It sucks, it didn't shuffle my songs"

You suck, you can't think worth shit.

Just get PS2 with Linux (1)

billc124 (457642) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671439)

If you get the PS2 Linux distribution when it comes out, you have most of what this thing does anyway. Plus it plays some killer games.

fcc (2)

geekoid (135745) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671495)

The FCC and the cable companies conspire to prevent me from watching my Buffy!)
so they ARE good for something ;)

S-VHS != S-Video (2, Informative)

rizzo242 (165630) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671660)

It has composite and S-VHS video outs

Okay, this is one of my little pet peeves...

S-Video is the name for that connector on the back of your DVD player that looks like an old-style Apple ADB keyboard/mouse port (mini-DIN 8 connector) that carries separated ("component") video signals rather than combined as in RCA cables ("composite"). It gives you better video signal quality, and you should use it whenever you have the capability. S-Video is presumably what CmdrTaco mean to say here.

S-VHS (Super-VHS) is a videotape standard like VHS, except it defines the use of different magnetic coatings and what-not for broadcast-quality resolution on Super-VHS tapes. In addition to the wildly-expensive professional rackmount broadcast equipment, you can buy stripped-down Super-VHS VCR's these days that are priced for prosumers. The resolution is similar to Hi-8mm.

Now, you'll find that just about any SVHS VCR has S-Video connectors on it in addition to composite RCA connectors, but S-Video connectors can also be found on lots of other things that are not related to Super VHS, like miniDV camcorders.

</rant>

I thought it said... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2671719)

I must need more coffee, because I though it said "It has a wireless keyboard as well as a regular remote so you can control it easily from your crotch.

Now THAT would be worth $1500!

Taco is right too much $. So build your own! (1)

Monoman (8745) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671841)

I am in the process of building my own system like this. My intention is to build a PC to arhive and play, music, PC games, emulated games (MAME and others), TV in/out. I painted the case and the drive bezels black to match my other A/V equipment.

I'll be up front and tell you it is going to be a WinXP box but I am sure you can do it on Linux.

Depending on your budget your equipment list may vary ... I know I could have gotten cheaper parts or prices.

Enlight desktop case: 55
Abit KGR7-RAID: 144
AMD 1600XP: 139
512MB DDR RAM: 90
FD: 15
ATI AllInWonder Radeon: 156
Hercules Game Theater XP sound card: 115
Plextor 16X CDRW: 145
Intel Wireless Keyboard, Mouse, Base station, and 2 game controllers: 89
IBM 20GB HD: 79
Sub total: 1,027

Two larger drives will be mirrored to store all the data (MP3s, MPEG, DIVX, etc). Approximately 150 x 2

Adding a DVD drive shortly for approximately 50.
Estimated total: 1377

Sure I went overboard but that happens sometimes :-)

From Personal Experience (1)

Sinjun (176671) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671855)

I did some contract work for zapmedia a while back (before they layed off 2/3 of their work force) and I was unimpressed by the zapstation. It was too expensive, buggy, and hard to navigate/use. Of course, I'm sure they've solved a lot of the problems they were dealing with. But the main problem is that there is a discrepancy between what you have the functionality to do and what you actually CAN do with the zapstation. Example, at least when I was there the concept was to have content providers serving up all the material. Well, what they were getting was basically crap. Like I said, maybe they've done a lot since then, but just consider that back then they were talking about releasing it at $300 a pop. I doubt they added $1200 worth of value to it.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt... (1)

MsGeek (162936) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671883)

Heh, funny...

I've got the beginnings of something that can do ALL OF THE ABOVE.

For less than $200 I was able to pull together a computer [lowendpc.com] that has part of the picture: it can play DVDs really, really well.

Swap out the Xpert128 for a PCI All-In-Wonder Radeon, add a nice audio card like the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, and I'm good to go. I figure it will cost me less than $400 all told.

This machine's got brownie points because it runs on Linux, but barely. Yeah, I run this box on 2K Pro, but that's because ATI hasn't released specifics about their DVD acceleration to the Open Source community. Bug 'em until they do.

Even without that, and with a beefier processor to handle software DVD decoding, you could do this for a third of the price using commodity PC hardware. $1500? No freakin' way! Get the fsck out of here!

Other similar boxes (2, Informative)

rsnodgrass (131564) | more than 12 years ago | (#2671975)

So two other similar boxes are currently offered by:

* AudioReQuest (www.request.com) built on QNX and support MP3, CD ripping, and supposedly a host of new features soon. I doubt it will support video playback of any kind since you really need a higher end graphics card than what they have in their box now.

* Imerge (www.imerge.co.uk) boxes which look really cool and promising. They were just released and will be shown at CES 2002.

Everyone has to understand that the prices WILL drop on these units...but it is VERY expensive to create the initial versions. Look at the TiVo...the 14 hour unit cost $1499 when it was first released!!! It's not a $199 (or is it $99 now) box.

It will take about a year for the prices to drop to something around $500 based on how quickly PVR boxes dropped in price. And for note some of these boxes were ORIGINALLY being sold for $800 or so...for instance the ARQ. I bought my 20GB version refurbished for $500 a while back and quickly upgraded it to 80GB.

The benefit of having a real UI over a PC interface or hacked together set of scripts is huge...the majority of the market isn't technical.
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