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Oceans Potentially More Common In Solar System

Hemos posted more than 12 years ago | from the life-in-all-forms dept.

Space 182

nairolF writes "The AIP Physics News Update has a brief note on how water oceans might be more common in the solar system than previously thought, rendering useless the old notion of a narrow "habitable zone" in solar systems, outside of which life cannot exist."

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GPL - Intellectual Theft!! (-1)

egg troll (515396) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726673)

Hello,

Consulting for several large companies, I'd always done my work on Windows. Recently however, a top online investment firm asked us to do some work using Linux. The concept of having access to source code was very appealing to us, as we'd be able to modify the kernel to meet our exacting standards which we're unable to do with Microsoft's products.

Although we met several technical challenges along the way (specifically, Linux's lack of Token Ring support and the fact that we were unable to defrag its ext2 file system), all in all the process went smoothly. Everyone was very pleased with Linux, and we were considering using it for a great deal of future internal projects.

So you can imagine our suprise when we were informed by a lawyer that we would be required to publish our source code for others to use. It was brought to our attention that Linux is copyrighted under something called the GPL, or the Gnu Protective License. Part of this license states that any changes to the kernel are to be made freely available. Unfortunately for us, this meant that the great deal of time and money we spent "touching up" Linux to work for this investment firm would now be available at no cost to our competitors.

Furthermore, after reviewing this GPL our lawyers advised us that any products compiled with GPL'ed tools - such as gcc - would also have to its source code released. This was simply unacceptable.

Although we had planned for no one outside of this company to ever use, let alone see the source code, we were now put in a difficult position. We could either give away our hard work, or come up with another solution. Although it was tought to do, there really was no option: We had to rewrite the code, from scratch, for Windows 2000.

I think the biggest thing keeping Linux from being truly competitive with Microsoft is this GPL. Its draconian requirements virtually guarentee that no business will ever be able to use it. After my experience with Linux, I won't be recommending it to any of my associates. I may reconsider if Linux switches its license to something a little more fair, such as Microsoft's "Shared Source". Until then its attempts to socialize the software market will insure it remains only a bit player.

Thank you for your time.

Re:GPL - Intellectual Theft!! (-1)

The WIPO Troll (267426) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726750)

You know what happened to my company when we used Linux? This smelly guy in a giant penguin suit came into our office and demanded to be able to rape our asses! That damned GPL allowed him to do it, too, and we all had to have our asses raped by a PENGUIN PHALLUS for nine hours straight! The fuckin' penguin really liked my ass and wouldn't let me leave until I promised to be his bitch forever!

Interesting (-1)

egg troll (515396) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726821)

I would like to meet this penguin for some avian sodomy. Can you introduce me to him?

Re:GPL - Intellectual Theft!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726861)

Hey, I'd like to read more about about your encounter with the PENGUIN PHALLUS.

In as much detail as you can provide.

Thanks in advance.

Re:GPL - Intellectual Theft!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726769)

you made a post on how trolls are everywhere on the posts... but why the hell do you insist on posting in places that dont relate to ANYTHING you're talking about??? you're just frekin annoying...

RANDOM NUMBERS - PAGE LENGHTENERS (-1)

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Fast Post (-1)

gebyyznfgre (530122) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726674)

Hello, I am troll. Does anyone have any suggestions for stories?

Re:Fast Post (-1)

Cheesy Fool (530943) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726844)

Yeah, a story about cheese. Anything involving cheese is good.

Great! (0, Funny)

IIOIOOIOO (517375) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726685)

A whole new stretch of ocean-front property to buy from shady realtors! They need somewhere, now that all that Louisiana swampland is finally sold.

Re:Great! (2)

jmccay (70985) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727284)

Scuba Diving anyone? Maybe on Neptune? I have a great price on the trip, hotel, and gear!

Oceans 11 (-1, Offtopic)

Gravityboy (210438) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726695)

The Big Bang: The Ultimate First Post!
:)

FP! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726701)

Blah. Oceans in the universe besides here? Whodathunkit?

But what good is a beach... (3, Funny)

D-Cypell (446534) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726702)

At 5 degrees kelvin. Hardly bikini weather!

Re:But what good is a beach... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726757)

it's not as much the thought of oceans, as the though of surfing in the oceans! That would be a month-getaway (cus a weekend would be toooo short)

Any good beaches? (-1)

penguin_punk (66721) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727130)

I'm thinking of getting away this holiday season to go surfing. Does anyone know of good planets with big waves and a somewhat mild (but warm) climate? I'm from Canada, so Anywhere near the equator is too hot for my pale-skinned liking. If the tempurature even comes close to what Vegas had during Defcon this year, then forget it. White sand is preferable.

Another related article... (3, Informative)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726703)

Due to the theory that under the ice of Europa is a giant ocean, NASA's JPL is talking about a mission to crack the ice open [slashdot.org] and search for biology.

Shameless journal plug? Not really, just an article the was rejected...

Re:Another related article... (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726782)

Why don't they heed the warning?! All these worlds are yours except Europa. Attempt no landings there. Dave will be pissed...

All these worlds are belong to us. (2)

Glytch (4881) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727243)

Take off no Zigs there.

Let's roll (2)

.sig (180877) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726704)

Well, why don't we go out looking for them ;-)

If it's that much more likely to find a place to live, then I'll just be wishing that much more for a mission to go out and find them. Put enough people on a big enough ship and eventually maybe they'll get there. Maybe not in their lifetime, but I'm sure they'll be able to figure out what to do.

Re:Let's roll (2)

spankfish (167192) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727100)

Put enough people on a big enough ship and eventually maybe they'll get there. Maybe not in their lifetime, but I'm sure they'll be able to figure out what to do.

Not if they're a bunch of hairdressers, PHBs and advertising execs...

Water on a rock? (2)

KarmaBlackballed (222917) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726716)

Stevenson added that observations also hint at oceans on Titan, Triton, and Pluto.

And I always thought Pluto was just a big frozen asteroid. Does it have enough mass to keep water? This seems like a typo to me. (Unless frozen water now counts as an ocean.)

Re:Water on a rock? (1)

fiftyfly (516990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726923)

I don't know about water on pluto, but the mass question is interesting. The biggest reason why planets in our neighborhood need to be large to hold onto volatiles is solar wind. This would not be such a problem in pluto's neck of the woods, however.

Re:Water on a rock? (3, Interesting)

Bonker (243350) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727043)

Pluto Planet Power... MAKE UP!

Remember that Charon, Pluto's moon/co Planet is close to half of Pluto's mass. The tidal force they exert on each other is significant... probably enough to keep water liquid (warm enough to support life? I dunno 'bout that) near Pluto's center.

This is, of course, assuming that Pluto is mostly made of cometary ice, rather than rock, which a lot of cosmologists think is the case.

Astrophysicists please correct me on the details.

Dead Scream...

Re:Water on a rock? (1)

BLAMM! (301082) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727200)

If the water is being kept liquid then it *is* warm enough to support life. That's the point the article was making. Even here on earth, life exists (not very advanced life, but life just the same) in water of all temperatures from just above freezing to just below boiling.

Re:Water on a rock? (1)

ptrourke (529610) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727235)

Astrophysicists and cosmologists don't study anything smaller than a star (and some won't study anything smaller than a galaxy). You're looking for planetary scientists. Otherwise, I think you're right on the details.

Jeez. If oceans are so plentiful... (5, Funny)

tcd004 (134130) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726719)

Why are we spending all our time trying to protect ours? Let's waste it like rock stars in a holiday inn!

tcd004
Janet Reno Margolis for Florida Gov. [lostbrain.com]

Re:Jeez. If oceans are so plentiful... (0, Troll)

laserjet (170008) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726814)

That's what I am saying! To all my friends who are tree huggers and think we should save the world (one of my friends wants to be an EPA lawyer for God's sake...) I just tell them I am relying on technological achievments to help us from ruining our planet. Whether it happens or not, who knows. But it is fun to really bug the people that are extremem anti-polutionists, etc.

Re:Jeez. If oceans are so plentiful... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726872)

LMAO!

Go up to them and ask them if you have enough hair spray in your hair. Tell them you only use the stuff with Floro-chloroCarbons (or whatever), cause it works better, even though its banned (ahh... the black market).

Re:Jeez. If oceans are so plentiful... (1, Offtopic)

laserjet (170008) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727023)

How in the hell is telling what I think (with an explanation that it is just humor INCLUDED in the post) a troll? I used to think that the moderators smoked crack, but I now think it is beyond that. I think they are smoking really cheap crack, and doing other things as well like huffing gasoline or starting on psychodelics. I honestly could understand if I was modded as offtopic, but troll?

POSITIONS WANTED: DO YOU SMOKE CRACK DAILY? DO YOU MAKE BIASED, UNEDUCATED CHOICES? IF SO, WE WANT YOU TO MODERATE FOR US! JUST CONTACT SLASHDOT.ORG.

Re:Jeez. If oceans are so plentiful... (1)

BLAMM! (301082) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727213)

Now *that's* a troll. :)

To quote (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726722)



...Under some circumstances water might even be found inside Uranus...

;-)

Re:To quote (1)

Jburkholder (28127) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726891)

or sometimes even coffee! (rimshot) *ducks*

Re:To quote (1)

Jburkholder (28127) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726939)

I borked the link. At the risk of being modded down on both posts:

or sometimes even coffee! [etenet.com]

"Ooooh!"

"What's the matter, too hot?"

"No, too sweet!"

Re:To quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726927)

...but would you drink water from Uranus?

Re:To quote (1)

jafiwam (310805) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727353)

Holy Enemma Batman!

Snot Potentially More Common in CmdrTaco (-1)

The WIPO Troll (267426) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726723)

By The WIPO Troll [slashdot.org] , $Revision: 1.14 $

Why do I keep receiving emails from someone calling himself "CmdrTaco"?

You have been receiving email from a certain
Robert "CmdrTaco" Malda [cmdrtaco.net] , owner of the popular technology website Slashdot [slashdot.org] . Actually, it's not a very "popular" site in the common sense of the word; the site is rife with pimply, antisocial geeks, zit-faced nerds, communists, dirty GNU hippies [yahoo.com] , and other societal rejects and outcasts. It's also home to one of the world's largest pædophile ring, the infamous "Slashdot crew."
Whenever Mr. Malda gets bored (and who wouldn't, running a site like
Slashdot all day), he roams through the user database, penis in hand, looking for people who might enjoy engaging in homosexual activities with him. How he determines this is anyone's guess; but if you have a homosexual-sounding nickname, or a nick with a letter of the English alphabet in it, you're in trouble.
This time, he found
you. Lucky you.

He seems to be speaking in some sort of code. Do you know what it means?

CmdrTaco's code language is relatively easy to decipher. He prefers to speak in thinly-veiled sexual innuendo to evade the watchful (but relatively stupid) eye of Slashdot's parent corporation,
VA Software [yahoo.com] . Mr. Malda's "Commander" is, of course, his penis -- a small, withered little thing that lives in his pants and only comes out in the presence of other male geeks or at the beck and call of CmdrTaco's own lubed-up right hand. His "Taco bells" are the shriveled testicles that droop beneath his Commander, and his "Taco sauce" is his thick, gooey semen. It should be more than obvious to you now what he means if he asked you to "ring his Taco bells" or "taste his gourmet Taco sauce."
I would guess he also asked you to engage in a practice known as "Taco-snotting" and, if he was in a particularly depraved mood at the time, a "circle-snot."

Good Lord. What is "Taco-snotting?"

"Taco-snotting" is the term used by CmdrTaco to refer to the act of fellating a homosexual man (or unwilling heterosexual; CmdrTaco is rumoured to prefer rape), then blowing the semen out his nose onto the face and body of his partner or victim. Naturally, a long, bubbly stream of milky-white semen is
left on CmdrTaco's face [yahoo.com] , dribbling out of his nose and down his cheek: hence the term, "Taco-snotting."
A "circle-snot" is a Taco-snotting
circle-jerk, another practice common among the Slashdot crew. CmdrTaco, CowboiKneel [aol.com] , and Homos get together and snot each other with their gooey, sticky cum -- spooging their jizz-snot all over each other's faces and pasty, white bodies, until they're covered head to toe with their own and each other's man juice. This vile ritual can go on for hours. For the homosexual penetration that follows this lengthy foreplay, Roblowme is usually there to provide plenty of anal lubricant; he owns a limo service and has ample supplies of motor oil and axle grease ready to go.
To complete this perverted orgy, fellow geeks Michael, Timothy, and Jamie will usually join in, dressed in tight leather mock-S.S. uniforms, jack boots, and leather gloves. The whole group then proceeds to snot each other's spunk and whip each other's pudgy asses with riding crops and chains until their pale, white geek bodies are exhausted and soaked in stinking sweat from the hours of passionate, homosexual revelry.

Ewwwwww. So, can I stop receiving these emails?

Hopefully.
You most likely forgot to uncheck the "Willing to Taco-snot" checkbox in your account preferences. CmdrTaco has probably already got the hots for your wad, and he's probably already been lurking outside your bathroom window for weeks with a camera, some tissues and lube. There's no escaping a geek in heat, so it's probably too late for you, but you can possibly rectify this situation. To remove yourself from CmdrTaco's sights, log into your Slashdot account, go to your user page, click on
Messages, and uncheck the box next to "Willing to Taco-snot." Maybe he'll ignore you. Probably not.

I can't stop receiving these emails from CmdrTaco!?

If you indulge him in a Taco-snot or two, he
might leave you alone. You might also want to look into mail filtering, restraining orders, or purchasing a heavy, blunt object capable of warding off rampaging homosexual geeks in heat. Trust me, when they charge... oh, the humanity. If he gets you, and you let him Taco-snot you, you will most likely end up tied up in his basement to be used as his sex slave for the rest of your life (or until he accidentally drowns you in spunk in a circle-snot).

Have you ever been Taco-Snotted?

Unfortunately, yes. I first met CmdrTaco at an
Open Source Convention [yahoo.com] . He invited me back to his room for a game of Quake and some "gourmet Tacos," but when I got there, he jumped me and tied me to his bed, stripping me. After taking his "Commander" out of his pants, Mr. Taco made me suck the withered thing six times. He then performed his vile Taco-snotting ritual on me three times over the next two hours, bringing me to orgasm after sweaty, mind-numbing orgasm... then he snotted my own milky-white jizz back onto my face, into my mouth, then again on my exposed belly.
CmdrTaco invited several of his Open Source (or rather, "Open Sauce" -- man sauce) buddies over to continue the twisted snotfest. Linux Torvalds
raped my ass [yahoo.com] with his "monolithic kernel [yahoo.com] ," and Anal Cox used his "network stack" in a multitude of unspeakable ways on and in every orifice in my defenseless body. Michael was there in his leather Nazi uniform, caning my ass with a bamboo pole and ranting about "all those Censorware freaks out to get him."
How did you finally escape, you ask? After about 16 hours of countless homosexual atrocities perpetrated against my restrained body, they all finally went to sleep on top of me, sweat-soaked and exhausted. I was left there, covered in bubbly, translucent jizz-snot, chained to the bed, with half a dozen fat, pasty-white fags lying around and on top of me. Fortunately the spooge coating my flesh worked wonderfully as a lubricant; I was able to squirm my way out of the handcuffs and slip out the back door. I'm just glad I survived the ordeal. These geeks had a lot of built-up spunk in their wads -- I could've easily been drowned!

That's horrible. Does "Taco-snotting" have anything to do with CmdrTaco's "special taco"?

No, that's a different disgusting perversion CmdrTaco indulges himself in. CmdrTaco is usually not satisfied with merely snotting your own jizz back onto your face, he most often enjoys involving his own bodily fluids in his twisted games.
WeatherTroll [slashdot.org] has spent some time trying to educate the Slashdot readership about this vile practice (emphasis added):
You may be wondering what CmdrTaco's "special taco" is. You will be wishing that you hadn't been wondering after you finish reading this post. To make his "special taco", CmdrTaco takes a taco shell and
shits on it. He then adds lettuce, jacks off on the taco, and adds a compound to make the person who eats the taco unconscious. Of course, the compound does not make the person unconscious until the taco is fully eaten. Thus CmdrTaco force-feeds the taco to the unsuspecting victim.
After the victim is unconscious, he is held against his will and used for CmdrTaco's nefarious sexual purposes. This includes shoving taco shells up the victim's ass, Taco-snotting, and getting Jon Katz involved.
Completely different, yet no less revolting. It should be clear to you now that CmdrTaco is a very, very sick individual, as are most of the Slashdot editors.

Does Jon Katz get involved in any of this? I thought he was a pædophile, not a homosexual.

Actually, Jon Katz is a homosexual pædophile. He's also a coprophiliac, and, many suspect, a zophile. Jon Katz is somewhat of a loner and doesn't involve himself in circle-snots. Mr. Katz usually engages in a game called "
Katz juicy-douching [aol.com] " with his harem of little-boy slaves: a vile practice which involves administering an enema to himself of the little boy's urine (forced out of them with a pair of pliers), spooging the vile muck from his ass back into the enema bag, then squirting and slathering the goo all over himself, and the little boy's chained-up and naked bodies. If he's in the mood, he will sometimes skip refilling the enema bag and just squirt it from his ass [yahoo.com] onto his boys. Unwilling boys are further tortured with the pliers until they comply and allow Mr. Katz to juicy-douche them for the rest of their lives.
As I already said, Mr. Katz is
also a zophile. As if the sexual escapades with the helpless little boys aren't enough, Jon usually enjoys his juicy-douches best when his penis is firmly planted in a female goat's anus [yahoo.com] . He is also rumoured to get off on watching his little boys eat the goat's small, bean-like turds.

...Are you getting hard writing this?

Why, yes. :) Join me in a WIPO-snot?

No, thanks. I'm already CmdrTaco's boi toi.

________________________________________
$Id: tacosnotting.html,v 1.14 2001/12/18 09:01:22 wipo Exp $
Copyright © 2001
The WIPO Troll [slashdot.org] . Verbatim crapflooding of this document is permitted in any medium, provided this copyright notice is preserved, and next time you take a dump, you think of the WIPO Troll and all he's done to make Slashdot a better place.

Of course! I am aware of at least eleven. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726728)

Sorry, I'm in a rush so I don't have time to read the article, but the recent movie (which I also didn't have time to see) "Oceans 11" seems to confirm the fact that there are at least eleven oceans in the solar system. I think that doctor from the TV show, ER is in it and he's robbing casinos to help out the emergency room or something like that but now it seems that it has something to do with Astronomy or Astrology or whatever. Anyway, I have to go now... bye.

Dr. Stevenson previous paper (5, Informative)

codexus (538087) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726729)

Here's an interesting paper on the same subject and by the same professor that spoke at the conference. You can find it in .pdf on his caltech homepage [caltech.edu] .

Re:Dr. Stevenson previous paper (2)

aallan (68633) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726997)

Here's an interesting paper on the same subject...

...and if you still believe in habitable zones, like most of the astronomical community, there are some interesting papers talking about habitable zones in the systems with known extra-solar planets. For instance...

Al.

This makes inhabiting other planets easier (4, Interesting)

Hairy_Potter (219096) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726736)

Knowing that there's a large and ready source of water, which conveniently can be broken down into oxygen and hydrogen, once we get a decent portable power supply (fusion maybe?).

This may make the Jovian and Saturnian satellites the prime real estate (aside from Earth) in the Solar System (whoa, echoes of Larry Nivem) Who needs the dry, dusty Moon or Mars.

Of course, all bets are off if life is discovered on Titan or Ganymede. Greenpeace would probably start a petition to leave the environment alone, so the single celled organisms can prosper while humanity suffers on an increasingly overpopulated Earth. Then again, if it's the Chinese that get their first, well, we know how what they did to the Three Rivers Gorge, goodbye extraterrestial life, hello New Gangzhou!

Re:This makes inhabiting other planets easier (1)

fiftyfly (516990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726948)

echos of Niven? - echos of Clarke!!! (2010) :)

Re:This makes inhabiting other planets easier (1, Troll)

Exmet Paff Daxx (535601) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727131)

I couldn't agree more. The good news in this article is that man can colonize; the bad news is that Man can Colonize.

Then again, if it's the Chinese that get their first, well, we know how what they did to the Three Rivers Gorge, goodbye extraterrestial life, hello New Gangzhou!

This possiblity terrifies me. Look at the population growth of the Chinese! We Americans claim to be a "superior" nation yet we can't even touch the population numbers the Chinese are putting out. How can we hope to compete in fields such as primary experimental medicine and foreign occupation without any excess population? The Chinese have neary 3 billion people to rival our puny half a billion. If this story is right, and we're ready to move into space, it's pretty obvious what the outcome will be: the Chinese will leap ahead of us due to their superior population growth and colonize the Galaxy first.

My question is: what's their secret?

Re:This makes inhabiting other planets easier (1)

ptrourke (529610) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727251)

The Chinese have neary 3 billion people to rival our puny half a billion. If this story is right, and we're ready to move into space, it's pretty obvious what the outcome will be: the Chinese will leap ahead of us due to their superior population growth and colonize the Galaxy first.

Please god, tell me this is a troll! There are 1 billion+ people in China, 1 billion in India, and a little more than a quarter billion in the US.

Re:This makes inhabiting other planets easier (1)

Untimely Ripp'd (513408) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727238)

I hate to break it to all you terraformers, but colonizing space is not the solution to overpopulation on earth. The population of earth will always be growing faster than rockets or whatever can possibly carry folks away. The number of people who get to leave will inevitably a tiny fraction of the number who must stay and suffer. Invading Titan or Ganymede would be economically absurd, morally questionable, and of course soooo romantic.

Oh, man... (4, Interesting)

Schwamm (513960) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726738)

I don't like the attitude of "Well, if there's water, there can be life!" That implies that people think that without water, there is no life.

Just because the life forms we know about need water to live doesn't mean that any life that may or may not be in the rest of the universe needs water.

I mean, really, can we assume that all life in the universe is carbon-based and needs water to live? I don't think so. It's entirely likely that if we were to discover life, we wouldn't actually recognize it as such.

Just my random thoughts.

Re:Oh, man... (2, Interesting)

betis70 (525817) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726797)

Right on!

This has been my complaint with the narrow-thinking SETI crowd for a long time. Just because we need water here on this planet for life (or think it is necessary), does not ipso facto require water to be necessary on other planets for life.

Even the concept that the only other possibility is silicon-based life forms seems quite limiting.

Re:Oh, man... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726862)

Damn... over the past three days, I've seen some stuff that really makes me with I had mod points. This makes a wonderful point!

Re:Oh, man... (5, Insightful)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726909)

Do you have a better indicator for life than water? What chemical should we be looking for? Researchers don't believe that water is absolutely necessary for life. But is sure has facilitated our kind of life, and that is the only kind of life we know. So where should we start looking for extraterrestial life? In places with lots of silicon? Not likely. Where there is water seems to be a good place to start. And that thing about discovering life and probably not recognizing it is bunk. The chances are actually very slim that we could'nt recognize it. Sure, we might think it's some sort of funny chemical reaction that needs investigation at first. But as soon as we know that there is reproduction with information being passed on, we know that it is life.

Re:Oh, man... (2, Interesting)

fiftyfly (516990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726964)

True, the carbon/water system is so extreamly flexible it seems so much likely that life would develope with that chemistry rather then, say, a silicone one. Heck, silicon is nearly the most abundant mineral on/in this planet, and we have yet to discover silicon based life here. I'm not saying that there for sure isn't any, it's just that it's not likely.

Re:Oh, man... (1)

thonot (226019) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727224)

goddamnit I didn't mean to mod this as off topic, now I hav to lose all the mods I've made on the whole goddamned topic!

Re:Oh, man... (0)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726957)

True, things perhaps don't need water, but afaik things will almost absolutely need acids or bases, which only act as such in the presence of water by changing pH (or more accurately the pH changes because of the presence of the substance in water).

It's difficult chemically to break things down without the water.

Re:Oh, man... (3, Insightful)

josh crawley (537561) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726989)

You all question water to survive. Since I want to further my understanding, what sort of liquid do you think can replace H2O ? I do see a few things that water can do/properties it has.

1: H2O is quite light. It's only 18g/mol. There's no other combination _I_ can think of that would be as light, as we humans are made up of a lot of water.

2: H2O is slightly polar, so it 'sticks' to certain structures a little more. Oil would be an interesting substitute to water, but oil is large polimer chains. Too hard to create. However Ions would disrupt other chemicals. Also, Ions require water to have charge.

3: Most of all biological elements are within the top 10 elements on the peridic chart. The reason these are used is because nuclear fusion within the sun allows these to be made with much greater abundance. This reason also coves why no Earthen creatures use silicon instead of carbon.

4: If you can accept the above examples of why water is better than other mostly inert transfer chemicals, then tempature also comes into play. I know of no animals that use solid or gaseous blood. All use liquid of some type, just because diffusion (or in water, osmosis) is easier to transport chemicals. The tempature of water being a liquid is between 255K and 310K , so most planets are eliminated just because of the tempature needs strict control.

A simple question about life in general: What grows faster, plants in the rainfores or plants on Antartica?

Re:Oh, man... (3, Interesting)

Compuser (14899) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727118)

1. We are indeed made up of a lot of water but
that need not be the case for things elsewhere
in the universe.

2. Water has many unique properties but none
of these may be needed by lifeform X.

3. Supernovae create abundant iron. Are we to
presume that lifeforms near supernovae are
iron based?

4. Blood? Why does lifeform X need blood? Are we
now presuming anatomy?

To take a slightly pessimistic view, in a few
hundred years humans may have driven themselves
to extinction leaving behind smart silicon-based
computers. Now you've got a race that needs no
blood and uses primarily copper and silicon to
replicate. Water may still be important for
some industial purposes but not in as large
quantities.

Re:Oh, man... (1)

Canuckanuck (235721) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727270)

The tempature of water being a liquid is between 255K and 310K

I'm confused. Last I heard, water's melting and boiling points are 273 and 373 K respectively. Did or I miss something, or did I get my biology degree on luck?

And last I can remember, when I was walking around outside at 255 K, the water I saw was all quite solid.

Re:Oh, man... (1)

josh crawley (537561) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727354)

OOps, my mistake. I pressed the f to K instead of C to K. I should have noticed that there wasn't a 100 degrees between my bad measurments. Stupidly, I gave measurements of 0 F to 100 F (-17 C to 37 C about).

Josh Crawley

Re:Ammonia? (2)

JJ (29711) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727295)

Not that I'm an expert in exobiology but ammonia does meet your conditions. It does have a very different liquid temperature range, but it is nearly as light, also slightly polar, top 10 and capable of creating similiar solutions and suspensions as water.

Re:Oh, man... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2727005)

Well, if its a computer, there's bound to be microsoft on it somewhere =). so, it seems logical that life would follow suit and be bound to a single item, rather than be diverse. closed minded thinking is in!

Re:Oh, man... (5, Insightful)

Bearpaw (13080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727029)

I don't like the attitude of "Well, if there's water, there can be life!" That implies that people think that without water, there is no life.

The statements is not incorrect. The implication you take from it is incorrect. "If A then B" does not logically imply "If not-A then not-B".

(Though it is a fairly common mistake, so it could be argued that science writers might want to take it into account when they write their articles.)

Re:Oh, man... (1)

BLAMM! (301082) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727318)

Interesting. I haven't argued this before so lemme give it a shot.

We can correctly say, "If there is water, then there can be life." If A, then B.

The mistake is saying, "If !A, then !B", "If there is no water then there cannot be life." I agree that this is wrong.

But logically "If !B, then !A" is true I believe. Thus we get, "If there cannot be life, then there is no water." That seems to be the reasonable conclusion, but still doesn't sound right.
Ah, now I have it. The inability of life means there cannot be water, otherwise there would be a chance for life. Got it.

Now, does that mean anything? Not really. Oh, well. :)

Take a look around (2)

DeadVulcan (182139) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727040)

...can we assume that all life in the universe is carbon-based and needs water to live?

Your point is perfectly valid, but I think, for the purposes of narrowing the search, we must start with what we know - what we observe around us right now.

I used to hold the belief that life could possibly form in all manner of environments...

Until it occurred to me that, right here in our own solar system, there are all manner of environments right under our noses. And so far as we can see (which is not that much, admittedly), there is no life on any other planet than Earth.

In fact, even within the narrow range of environments on Earth, we can observe a gigantic difference in the quantity and diversity of life between, say, a tropical rainforest and an arctic desert.

Much as I would like to believe that life can spring up in all kinds of envrionments, the evidence we've seen so far doesn't seem to support it. In my (very uneducated) opinion, it really does look like the warm and wet climate is best for life.

Re:Oh, man... (2)

mclearn (86140) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727080)

Just because we require a universe, everyone starts to think that it is a requirement for all life. :-)

Re:Oh, man... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2727256)

No, because all of the life forms we've seen need it everyone thinks that it's a requirement for all life. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Full Text of Article (It's REALLY short...) (2, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726742)

Number 569 #2, December 14, 2001 by Phil Schewe, James Riordon, and Ben Stein
Oceans Might Be Common and Diverse


Oceans might be common and diverse in our solar system and in other solar systems, according to David Stevenson of Caltech, who regards the old notion of a narrow "habitable zone" (Venus too hot, Mars too cold, Earth just right) for liquid water oceans as erroneous.

Stevenson spoke earlier this week in San Francisco at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union at a session intended to bring together two scientific communities that scrutinize very different realms--the planets and the seafloor on Earth.

The connection? Observations from the bottom of the ocean show that microbes thrive both in near-freezing seawater and in near-boiling effusions from thermal vents. These conditions might turn up in many other planetary environments.

For example, the Galileo spacecraft has provided evidence for watery oceans on three of Jupiter's moons-Callisto, Ganymede, and Europa. Subsurface oceans could be kept liquid by warmth from tidal forces (Jove wringing its satellites) or from radioactivity. Torrance Johnson of JPL, also speaking that the meeting, said that Europa's ocean might be 75-150 km thick and could thus harbor twice the water in Earth's oceans.

Stevenson added that observations also hint at oceans on Titan, Triton, and Pluto. In the case of Titan (soon to get the Galileo treatment when the Cassini spacecraft reaches Saturn in 2004) an ocean would be a mixture of water and ammonia (acting as antifreeze). Under some circumstances water might even be found inside Uranus and Neptune.

Other forms of life? (4, Informative)

telbij (465356) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726745)

Well, they've known about microbes in varying climates for a while. What I'm more curious about is non-H20 based life. Has anyone made any postulations about such life?

It strikes me as rather narcissistic to believe that the definition of life is somehow rooted to the way things worked out on this planet...

Can anyone think of any other substances that behave as dynamically as water in different temperature ranges?

Non-H20 life. (1)

WinPimp2K (301497) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726860)

Well, I would remind you that H20 was a movie, and there is a great deal of life outside of the movies in general and 20 year retreads of slasher flicks in particular. Of course jack Valenti may have a differing opinion on this...

Of course if you meant non H2O life, that is an entirely different story. My own expert opinion is that we would not recognize any such life form unless it was intelligent. And even then we would be likely to think of it as some form of machine rather than something actually living.(Paranoid crackpots like Stephen Hawking do speak of machine life - but only as an extension of our own creations)

Re:Non-H20 life. (3, Insightful)

telbij (465356) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727103)

Which begs the question. What is intelligence, and would we recognize an intellect based on completely different life experience from our own?

Hell, if consciousness is just a byproduct of a complex system, we would never know it because there would be no way to relate to such a system. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is some kind of life sharing the same planet with us that we never noticed because it functions on a completely different level.

Re:Other forms of life? (3, Informative)

Nino the Mind Boggle (10910) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726879)

AFAIK, it's really hard to postulate about "other forms of life" (not carbon-based/H20 dependant) because life, even so-called "simple" life forms are complicated. I mean, look at the ATP molecule works for example (http://www.arn.org/docs/mm/atpmechanism.htm). This sucker is the "engine" that fuels basic metabolism in most all the life we know of. (Don't know if the sulphur-eaters by those deep-ocean vents use ATP.)

Yeah, science fiction has postulated silicon-based life (the kind Kirk almost killed in ST:TOS), or chlorine breathers (like the Kloros in that Asimov story, C-Chute), but I haven't heard that anyone has postulated any plausible biochemical processes (akin to ATP) that could support such life. Anyone got any pointers?

Another.."Life based on what we know" article. (4, Interesting)

TeleoMan (529859) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726747)

People, people, people: based on what we know about life what you say is fairly true. However, it is what we don't know about how life is formed and in what forms it may take that will be clincher in discovering life other than our own. We know that for life to exist in a form that we know it, we need conditions that are similar to what we find on earth. However, there is no evidence to support a conclusive claim that life cannot exist in environments that are dissimilar from where we exist. Life may very well exist on mars, but it may be in a form we have yet to discover. Scientist are always looking for water as signs to point to the possibility for life elsewhere. Maybe there is another ideal chemical combination that may also harvest life.


"I can't argue that I'm not an idiot." - Jon Katz

what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726749)

the solar system

is there an understood, universal solarsystem that is now named "The Solar System"?

Surfing? (1)

Mac Nazgul (196332) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726763)

Surfing on Venus anyone?

New bottled water competition (1)

Mac Nazgul (196332) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726790)

Bottled Maine spring water not exclusive enough for you?

Try new "nector of the gods" water, bottled straight from the oceans of Saturns's Moon Titan!

Really (2, Funny)

rbgaynor (537968) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726778)

From the article:

Under some circumstances water might even be found inside Uranus...

Old news, the Kaopectate people have known that for years :o

Good Try! (-1)

egg troll (515396) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726840)

But an anonymous coward beat you to the Uranus joke several posts ago.

In further news... (5, Funny)

jd (1658) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726798)

Alchohol was detected in interstellar clouds, making obsolete the theory that drunken, rowdy crowds were a Terran phenomina.


Oceans are believed essential for life, but so was the habitable zone. It is the height of "optimism" to believe that if one is wrong, the other must be even more right than before.


There is life on Earth which exists in deep, oceanic trenches, near hot volcanic vents. Since that life could not exist prior to the volcanic vent opening, it can be assumed that the formation of life, at it's most basic, is occuring on a regular basis. These life-forms may or may not have any nucleic structures we would recognise.


For this reason, until such extreme life-forms on Earth are better understood, and the range of conditions in which they can form are better quantified, only the very brave, or very stupid, could claim that "factor X will make life more/less abundant in our Universe". All we really know is that the picture is a hell of a lot more complicated than it used to be.

Re:In further news... (3, Interesting)

oni (41625) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727174)

Since that life could not exist prior to the volcanic vent opening, it can be assumed that the formation of life, at it's most basic, is occuring on a regular basis.

Maybe I missunderstand you. Are you saying that those little white crabs and shrimp evolved completely separate from the crabs and shrimp that live in shallow water and look exactly like them?

Seriously.... (3, Informative)

josh crawley (537561) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726808)

This sounds like wishful thinking and all, but who actually believes anything can live in the environs mentioned in the story?

The article:

""Oceans might be common and diverse in our solar system and in other solar systems, according to David Stevenson of Caltech, who regards the old notion of a narrow "habitable zone" (Venus too hot, Mars too cold, Earth just right) for liquid water oceans as erroneous.

Stevenson spoke earlier this week in San Francisco at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union at a session intended to bring together two scientific communities that scrutinize very different realms--the planets and the seafloor on Earth.

The connection? Observations from the bottom of the ocean show that microbes thrive both in near-freezing seawater and in near-boiling effusions from thermal vents. These conditions might turn up in many other planetary environments.

For example, the Galileo spacecraft has provided evidence for watery oceans on three of Jupiter's moons-Callisto, Ganymede, and Europa. Subsurface oceans could be kept liquid by warmth from tidal forces (Jove wringing its satellites) or from radioactivity. Torrance Johnson of JPL, also speaking that the meeting, said that Europa's ocean might be 75-150 km thick and could thus harbor twice the water in Earth's oceans.

Stevenson added that observations also hint at oceans on Titan, Triton, and Pluto. In the case of Titan (soon to get the Galileo treatment when the Cassini spacecraft reaches Saturn in 2004) an ocean would be a mixture of water and ammonia (acting as antifreeze). Under some circumstances water might even be found inside Uranus and Neptune.""

Europa does have very likely evidence of a liquid ocean, but the article then uses that to 'assume' of living creatures there (bac). How can there be? Complex nucleotides and a slurry of other complex chemicals are required for 'life' to occur. Another problem is energy entering/leaving the system. The Earth is quite close to the sun, but europa can rely on nearly 0 energy from the sun (at least as useful radiation). Tidal energy is energy none the less, but it's too limited, even coming from Jupiter.

Energy, yes but useful, no.

Josh Crawley

Re:Seriously.... (2, Interesting)

aallan (68633) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726892)

Europa does have very likely evidence of a liquid ocean, but the article then uses that to 'assume' of living creatures there (bac). How can there be?

While I would be the first to argue that we have no proof of life, the martian meteorites [nhm.ac.uk] not withstanding, Europa is probably our "best bet" to find it inside our own solar system.

For instance have a look at these papers from the AAS DPS meeting,

or even

Al.

Re:Seriously.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2727128)

"Complex nucleotides and a slurry of other complex chemicals are required for 'life' to occur."

Talk about excessive assumtions made from very small evidence. From my understanding, no one has ruled out the Pan Spermia Theory that life is spread infectiously though out space. Thus, no need for nucleotides ect.

It is perfectly valid to assume that life will be present wherever it is possible. Which generally seems to mean some sort of energy source and some sort of stable environment.

Lets look at the environs of some of the known life forms

Boiling Water and living on sulfur compounds (ocean vents)
Freezing Water at high pressure living on decomposition residuals (glacial bacteria)
Passive life in a harsh reducing atmosphere living off sunlight(trees)
Assorted bacteria living in Oil (sludge)

The list continues on for just about any sort of environment we can think of. The trick seems to be that the environment must persist long enough to act as an exploitable niche by evolutionary processes.

Life in a near freezing water and ammonia mix does not sound far fetched at all. If Pan Spermia is true, then we should absolutely expect to find life of some sort there.

Re:Seriously.... (1)

josh crawley (537561) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727304)

I've never heard of the Pan Spermia theory, but when you paraphrased what it means "life is spread infectiously though out space", then what about radiation? Cosmic rays and the 3k background are bound to disrupt celluar actions (assuming they are cells). Also, space is quite harsh to adapt to. No pressure, extreme tematures, and little food, unless these creatures are able to turn radiation into food. I just don't get how a small organism can stand a flash fire (eg. in space outside of Earth, if you were facing the sun with no suit on, your face would boil and your back would crystallize). Viruses do seem to be an interesting variant, but they require a host to reproduce, at least to our knowledge. Still, this theory does intrigue me... Josh Crawley

Oceans, oceans everywhere... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726813)

Here's an interesting point: When people talk about whether water would be liquid or solid on mars, they're referring to pure, 100% distilled water, not brine or any water with salts in it. When there are dissolved substances, the freezing point is depressed, so water could be -10 C during the day and still liquid.

Also, on Earth, there is a plethora of water below the surface, although you would not want to drink it. It's usually saturated in salts like calcium or sodium chloride, carbonates, and sulfates. However, even 10 km below the surface of the Earth, in hot conditions and high pressures, 0bacteria thrive in these conditions (as they do in the Hydrocarbon deposits as well).

Given that Mars has plenty of surface evidence of (geologically) recent free flowing water, the scientific community would be remiss to assume that subsurface water does not exist. It likely has a lot of brine belows it's surface, perhaps rich in Iron salts.

Also, there are moons of Jupiter, like Europa (which is basically 10 km of ocean from what we can see on the surface) and Ganymede (with a lot of hydrocarbons) where conditions that bacteria and simple one celled life require exist. Given that we have already learned that bacteria in hostile environments on Earth (Antarctica, for example, in very dry and cold conditions) can hibernate for millions of years, it's conceivable that rocks knocked loose from Earth from the occasional large meteor (i.e. asteroid or comet) could transport bacteria to Mars and elsewhere. I think that if life did not evole there, it was transported from Earth by this process (or perhaps even the other way). Some people have speculated that bacterial or similar life found on Mars or elsewhere within this solar system is completely different from that found on Earth -- I would postulate that it is probably no more 'alien' that what we might find in the ocean near black smokers, that big underice lake in Antarctica (can't remember the name), or a barren, cold, high altitude mountain.



---this is not your kill9 sig

Re:Oceans, oceans everywhere... (2)

kin_korn_karn (466864) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727264)

Some people have speculated that bacterial or similar life found on Mars or elsewhere within this solar system is completely different from that found on Earth -- I would postulate that it is probably no more 'alien' that what we might find in the ocean near black smokers, that big underice lake in Antarctica (can't remember the name), or a barren, cold, high altitude mountain.

I would guess that low order protists like bacteria, slime molds, etc. on other planets would be similar to those on earth. Any higher-evolved life forms would be quite a bit different. Bacteria in isolated environments (deep ocean, polar lakes) are basically the same as any other bacteria on earth, single-cell with a nucleus and a penchant to multiply. But look at some of the fish and crustaceans that they find near the atlantic vents - freakish things by everyday earth standards.

If there were surface life on Mars (personally I don't believe there is) it would also have to be evolved to the Martian environment. Maybe the heart-lung system isn't the most efficient circulatory system for Mars. Maybe the high amount of CO2 in the atmosphere makes a better case for photosynthesis. We won't know unless we go there.

This article has nothing to do with oceans... (3, Interesting)

kevlar (13509) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726830)


... and how common they are. It has to do with the common belief that for an ocean to be hospitable, it needs to be within a certain threshold. They've basically taken evidence that microbes thrive in near boiling water and near frozen water, and apply that to the other suspected oceanic environments in the solar system. This says nothing about the environment required to form life however. Overall, nothing new here....

Re:This article has nothing to do with oceans... (1)

SGDarkKnight (253157) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726887)

Acutally it has everything to do with oceans. The only thing is, its based on Earth. But then again, what else are they to base their research on, a planet that they have never seen before that might have life. But hey, i don't expect the next planet they find life on to be anything like Earth, but until that discovery is made, Earth is the only thing we can use as a guide line for the fundamental rules for the creation of life on other worlds.

I would hate to be a scientest when they realize that all the science we discover on Earth could be tossed out the window when they find another habited planet. But thats just my opinion.

Venus has an ocean (0, Offtopic)

teledyne (325332) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726864)

Haven't you ever seen that picture of that naked chick in a clam? She was from Venus! I say we ship all of the old men to Venus so they can sun-bathe nude there! I know we'll be sacrificing that hot woman in a clam but at least we'd have the security of knowing that us geeks can once again roam the nude beaches! (with our 500x optical zoom camcorders, of course)

Re:Venus has an ocean (0)

csmiller (315238) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727014)

No,
she was the Venus, Roman goddess of love. I take it you are refering to this [artmagick.com] . There a also another painting, with Venus standing in a clam-shell, with a tree to the right, and naked cherbus in the background, but I can't find it.
Its kinda like Le Printemps (The Return of Spring), 1866 [primenet.com] , but with more background.

Interesting News (1, Interesting)

Torinaga-Sama (189890) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726865)

I think we will make more dicoveries like this once we begin to disolve our notion of what is and isn't possible or probable with the physical universe.

Think outside the globe people...

heh heh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726902)

They said there might be water in Uranus.

Habitable zones = bunk is news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726905)

I thought the idea of "habitable zones" had been shown to be BS ages ago. There's life in lightless boiling (well, it would be at normal pressure) water around volcanic vents. There's life under polar ice caps. Little one-celled critters can survive in space. What the heck does water have to do with blowing the "habitable zones" theories out of the water?

Scientific Absolutes (2, Insightful)

ddillman (267710) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726915)

This article is basically countering an old axiom, that water, and therefore life (as we know it) are rare and exist in only certain conditions.

Scientists (and probably the media covering them) have had a habit of making such absolute statements as these for centuries. Recall the common theories of the universe around the time of Gallileo and Copernicus?

Isn't it about time scientists and those who report their findings wake up to the fact that what we know today is only what we know today, and that things might be diferent tomorrow? Report the findings, sure, but make sure your language shows that we are still looking for more information, still finding new things every day...

Year 2050 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2726919)

The world is a Ocean planet! Stange aqua aleins invade earth!

page lengthening post! (-1)

Klerck (213193) | more than 12 years ago | (#2726974)

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Uranus (0, Redundant)

GreenJeepMan (398443) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727008)

"Under some circumstances water might even be found inside Uranus..."

no shit

Re:Uranus (0, Troll)

GreenJeepMan (398443) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727042)

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Argh (5, Informative)

kalyptein (313110) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727124)

Ok, I'm going to be the crotchety scientist, you'll have to forgive me.

Ok, lets get some things straight. There's evidence that liquid water can exist in places outside our old 'habitable zone'. We know that organisms can thrive in boiling and subzeo (but still liquid) water, as well as surviving frozen inside ice (as happens annually in the ice shelves of antarctica).

So, this means that its *possible* for life as we know it to exist in these extraterrestrial oceans. No one is saying its there, just that its worth a look. Likewise, no one has proven that life can't exist without water. However, the only kind of life we *know* exists, does require water, and is carbon-based. I hope someday that we find that life exceeds this "narrow" category, but since we'd first just like to find any life at all, where do you think we're going to look? For the moment, time, energy, and resources are most likely to give results if we apply them according to our best information about life, however meager.

Rant over. Now get the hell off my lawn you kids!

Can you prove this? (2, Insightful)

SONET (20808) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727139)

...outside of which life cannot exist.

should read "...outside of which life as we know it cannot exist."

It really bothers me when people leave that part out. Though we haven't found any evidence yet, living organisms in other solar systems may very well have adapted to a completely different kind of environment than we have here on Earth. Just because we don't know about it or understand it yet doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. :)

--SONET

BTW (2, Insightful)

Motheius (449386) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727164)

That range is called the Goldie Locks range. Not too hot, not too cold....

had they read Sitchin... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2727205)

they would have known about the extraterrestrial oceans. 6000 years ago, the Sumerians called Uranus and Neptune "the watery twins," and their star charts showed Pluto, which supposedly wasn't discovered until 1936. Ah, the advances of modern science...

Not quite useless, I don't think (3, Interesting)

Uttles (324447) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727211)

OK, so my knowledge of these matters comes mostly from articles on \. and discovery channel programming, and I'm not an expert, but I don't think this statement is exactly right:

rendering useless the old notion of a narrow "habitable zone" in solar systems, outside of which life cannot exist.

From my limited information on this subject, I've understood that the habitable zone is used in the context of planet forming and that the reason behind certain planets having certain compositions is their position in the solar system, mainly distance from the sun, while they were forming. Therefore the habitable zone is the area where if a planet forms there it will likely have the characteristics of a planet capable of sustaining life as we know it. The article suggests that the habitable zone only refers to an area that can sustain life now that all the planets are here, which is really only descriptive of human life and not other, unknown organisms (or possibly known like the microorganisms discussed in the article.)

Liquid water needed, plus (5, Insightful)

JJ (29711) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727258)

Organic chemistry as we know it, that is simple acid molecules grouping into proteins and with carbohydrates, requires not just water and quite a lot of it. Although ammonia will also provide a media for these chemical structures, there are other requirements which may limit the ability of all but a small number of oceans from supporting life. Note that the three extreme conditions on Earth normally considered (dry cold of Antarctica, near freezing and crushing pressures of ocean depths and undersea vents) all did not develop their own life, but provided suitable environments for existing life to adapt to. Could any other planetoid in the solar system support life? Possibly. Develop it independently? Very, very much less likely.

Water in unexpected places (0)

Andy (2990) | more than 12 years ago | (#2727342)

The article said that there is water in Uranus. Wow.
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