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Interview With Microsoft's Chief of Security

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the reserve-judgment-then-reduce-with-whine dept.

Security 245

Paul Coe Clark III writes: "I interviewed Howard Schmidt, Microsoft's head of security, questioning him about, among other things, cyberterrorism and Redmond's responsibility for insecure features in the wake of many virus attacks. /. readers might find it interesting. They can find it here."

cancel ×

245 comments

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f i r S t (-1)

beee (98582) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729063)

first post, bizhos!

Re:f i r S t (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729073)

Off with you head troll!
No seriously give me a good troll post please.

Microsoft Security? (-1, Troll)

dhruvee (203270) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729069)

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Re:Microsoft Security? (-1)

egg troll (515396) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729111)

Isn't that an oxymoron?


I have two replies to this. Please take your pick.


1) Its no more an oxymoron than Linux security. That thing has more holes in it than Jon Katz's Afghan story.

or

2) Haha! You went for the cheap MS dis and got modded down, turd burglar!!

Re:Microsoft Security? (-1, Offtopic)

LOTR Troll (544929) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729165)

Props. That was a decent analysis egg troll, sir.

Asking who?? (-1, Flamebait)

thehomeslice (123823) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729071)

Is that like asking a blind man to describe the color green?

Re:Asking who?? (-1, Offtopic)

Guillaume Ross (517391) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729153)

I'm not blind, but I still can't describe "Green" ! Oh..."Terminal foreground color"

page lengthening post! (-1)

iamklerck (445579) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729079)

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Isn't it ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729081)

that at the time this is posted, Hotmail / Msn websites are down ©©

Re:Isn't it ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729519)

That's not really irony, unless there's some evidence that a security flaw caused the outage. It's fixed now, and was apparently just a routing problem (blamed on AT&T).

page lengthening post! (-1)

Gay Linux Conspiracy (451909) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729091)

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Insecurity (3, Funny)

Lester67 (218549) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729095)

Well, the way you guys constantly dog out Microsoft around here it's no wonder it is insecure. A little TLC should get them back in order in no time.

Secure my a$$ (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729463)

And while you try, secure this [tora.net] !

I wonder. (1)

Renraku (518261) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729096)

I wonder if he feels personally responsible/remorseful when someone using a product he helped create is screwed over because he didn't do his job of finding/repairing security holes.

Re:I wonder. (1)

Neumann (240442) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729351)

Now thats unwarranted. I ask you (only if you contribute source code to Linux, of course you do dont you?) if YOU feel personally responsible/remorseful when someone using the product YOU helped create is screwed over because YOU didnt do your job of finding/repairng security holes. Isnt that what makes open source great? (The many eyeballs make all bugs shallow?)

Damning with faint praise (5, Insightful)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729097)

> Q: [another expert] said his theory was "D3" - "declassify, demystify and diversify (software)." All three of those things are not things associated with Microsoft. Is that a policy you'd take issue with?
>
> A: I think any time we find any security vulnerability, we're one of the best in the industry to notify people of the details of them and give them the details to get it fixed.

Conspicuously absent is any description of Microsoft's response when someone else finds the security vulnerability in their products.

Re:Damning with faint praise (1)

Kelvin Zero (122055) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729331)

While I agree, what really strikes me is the last part of that. " ... and give them the details to get it fixed"

I guess that means that they eventually tell you when you need to run Windows Update and get the patch that they have finally gotten around to creating.

Until then, good luck. It's not like you can fix it yourself since you are not allowed to see and modify the code.

Re:Damning with faint praise (5, Insightful)

gazbo (517111) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729412)

It's not like you can fix it yourself since you are not allowed to see and modify the code.

99.5% of [insert open source app here] users cannot 'fix it themselves' either, because they don't have the technical knowledge of every package in a system, or they don't have time to fix it. The more likely a person is to be able to fix a security exploit on a production machine, the more it would cost for their time.

I agree in theory that open source wins here, but in practice the vast majority of people are reliant on patches supplied by distributors.

Contrary to popular belief (5, Interesting)

Zen Mastuh (456254) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729115)

Microsoft does focus a lot of effort towards securing their products. Unfortunately the effort is more reactive than proactive. It's a basic flaw in the capitalist model that allows the Marketing and Accounting people to determine release dates--instead of the Developers. The attitude can be paraphrased like this: "As long as the app fires up, it can be released. We'll let the customers be beta testers."

If they were in the car business insted of the O/S business, a lot of people would be dead or mangled.

Re:Contrary to popular belief (5, Interesting)

Bonker (243350) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729168)

If they were in the car business insted of the O/S business, a lot of people would be dead or mangled.


That's ultimately the only thing that can change the corporate machine... Death. Either the death of members of the machine or members of the public.

Look at the recent Ford/Firestone screwover: Sure, there have been reports about how unsafe SUV's were for years, but Ford was able to rationalize those deaths away as just part of the 'acceptable highway fatality level' that Americans seem to be comfortable with.

It wasn't until people were able to say with proof positive that Ford SUV's and/or Firestone tire were directly responsible for human deaths that Ford was forced to change its practices.

Microsoft is in the same boat. It won't be until the Blue Screen of Death is really, provably responsible for human fatalities (Think saftey control at a power plant, or a crash aboard a military vehicle of some kind) that Microsoft will start being more responsible about their security and program design.

Re:Contrary to popular belief (3, Insightful)

kilgore_47 (262118) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729309)

Microsoft is in the same boat. It won't be until the Blue Screen of Death is really, provably responsible for human fatalities (Think safety control at a power plant, or a crash aboard a military vehicle of some kind) that Microsoft will start being more responsible about their security and program design.

More likely, when there are human fatalities as a result of MS bugs, thats when MS lawyers will remind the grieving families (and anyone else who complains) that they are not responsible for damages caused by their software. They'll insist it was someone else's fault (maybe sacrifice the MCSE who installed the deadly setup), and not change their wats one little bit.

As much as I hate Microsoft, I'd be rooting for them in such a case. The reason is because a ruling against them would set the precedent that software companies are legally liable for misuse of their products. The resulting frivolous lawsuits (certainly people would figure out how to hurt themselves with other software products) would be overwhelming.

Re:Contrary to popular belief (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729350)

wouldn't that be great? I can't wait till software is taken more seriously rather than "oh well we'll fix it when someone finds out about it".

And don't give me this "but all software contains bugs, it's unavoidable". Sure it is. For now. Until you actually restructure everything from scratch to actually WORK in the real world...

I disagree with that. (1)

El Camino SS (264212) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729543)


THE lawyers won't just sue Microsoft, they will also be suing the maker of the "killing object" that M$ software was put in, for being so insane as to not to make a more custom bulletproof application.

Re:Contrary to popular belief (2)

kin_korn_karn (466864) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729177)

nobody's figured out a way to quantify software quality and automate software QA. Cars, you can crash-test with dummies, check the pressure of the fuel system with a gauge that sends a signal to a PLC that goes into the fault log if it's bad, check the horsepower with a dyno, etc.

Software, the only people that can certify it are real-live humans. Testing software (except for games) is a tedious, boring job that nobody wants to do, therefore there's a huge gap between the QA management (who get paid big $$ to be the gatekeepers) and the peons (who get paid squat because "all they do is follow instructions"). Such an arrangement is not conducive to true quality.

There's a reason why everything from lumber to condoms is tested by a machine - because it sucks to test it yourself (except for the condoms, but wait, what if they fail?)

Re:Contrary to popular belief (4, Informative)

Howie (4244) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729245)

But there are also best-practice methods to avoid bugs in the first place during the coding stage. Software is not a manufacturing process where you can only test the end product. It's an engineering process which can have checks and balances all through development.



Ironically, you can find a lot of good information about this in a Microsoft Press book: Writing Solid Code by Steve Maguire. As Maguire points out, leaving your bugfinding to the testers is folly.

Re:Contrary to popular belief (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729261)

nobody's figured out a way to quantify software quality and automate software QA
And so, time-tested software is the safest bet.

The other thing is software that has all inputs tried and all outputs checked. Heavily componentised software allows this more than a monolith.

Re:Contrary to popular belief (2, Interesting)

kellin (28417) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729291)

Having worked in that corporate QA environment on and off for the last 6 years, and watching what I thought was real quality QA testing deteriorate into mindless clicking and "following directions" mainly due to a change in corporate environment, I must agree with you.

There's a huge difference, though, between games and operating systems. Letting the end users "beta test" an OS is by far, the most insane excuse for laziness I've ever heard, and its actually one of my biggest complaints against microsoft.

You can pay people to test an OS, but I can guarantee you that's even LESS exciting than testing a game. An idea comes to mind, though.. get a bunch of young *hackers* together and *PAY* them well, to build programs that test the vulnerabilities of the OS.. or heck, get some seasoned hackers that are trustworthy for such a thing and pay them even better... I dunno.. just an idea...

Re:Contrary to popular belief (2)

Detritus (11846) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729352)

nobody's figured out a way to quantify software quality...

See this paper [nasa.gov] on software metrics and reliability, and John Musa [aol.com] 's work on software reliability engineering.

Software reliability can be measured and reliability goals can be set and met with current technology. Management has to make a specified level of reliability a requirement and support a software development and testing process that can meet that requirement.

Fire this man (1, Insightful)

CordMeyer (452485) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729116)

Could the blame for Microsofts security issues fall on this man? Rushing products before they are fully tested.
Microsoft's closed-source mode of development guarantees that customers will continue getting cracked and Microsoft will continue pointing the finger of blame everywhere except where it actually belongs.

Ok, but... (1)

torqer (538711) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729138)

He did coin (or I least I've never heard of it yet) the term cyberhacktivism. So that's gotta be worth something. Cheers

fRIST lLAmA pOoP!!!1!! (-1)

KingAzzy (320268) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729118)

llllllaaaaaammmmmmaaaaaa goody goody llllllaaaaaammmmmmaaaaaa goody goody llllllaaaaaammmmmmaaaaaa goody goody llllllaaaaaammmmmmaaaaaa goody goody llllllaaaaaammmmmmaaaaaa goody goody llllllaaaaaammmmmmaaaaaa goody goody llllllaaaaaammmmmmaaaaaa goody goody where did CmdrTaco get his syphlitic penile accesory?

FROM JONKATZ

yup

WHAOOOO

The obvious full disclosure question (2, Offtopic)

Wizard of OS (111213) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729120)

The question that will be asked by a zillion of people: what is your (personal) opinion on the full disclosure issue? Let me phrase that more specifical with an example: the latest security bug concerning the download of possibly malicious code by IE, when the download box shows a different file type. When this was originally posted on Bugtraq, the advisory was very limited in details, to quote one of his replys on this matter:

Some details needed for reproducing and exploiting the flaw were left
out of my posting because there is no good workaround or a patch
available, and the flaw could be quite easily used maliciously. Using
those details it would be relatively easy to create a worm that infects a
system when a user "opens" a plain text file from an infected website,
for instance. For the same reason there wasn't any test page URL included
in my posting. That, and technical details will be published later.


Unfortunately for those who oppose full disclosure, the issue was discussed on Bugtraq, which finally led to the details of the vulnerability. This means that the Microsoft-supported way of disclosing bugs (Do issue an advisory but do not publish any details that could be used in creating exploits) apparently didn't work out. Ofcourse, there was a (small) delay, but eventually everybody knew about it before the patch was released.

My question regarding this issue is: how do you feel about this issue? Do you really think that not fully disclosing a vulnerability will prevent exploits to be made? One of the arguments for full disclosure is that sysadmins are able to reproduce the error so that they can test if their system is vulnerable, but with limited disclosure this will only be possible for a small (and probably malicious) public.

Mod me down please (3, Offtopic)

Wizard of OS (111213) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729140)

Okay, wrong reply (Yes, I scanned the article and saw the words 'microsoft' 'security' 'ask' 'question' and 0 comments, started typing like a wildman to be the first to type an intelligent question ... and realised just a bit too late that it wasn't a call for questions).

Please mod me down before to many people notice my dumbness :)

Re:Mod me down please (2, Offtopic)

Wizard of OS (111213) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729151)

Now what did I ask? I'm actually being modded UP as 'insightfull'

*sigh*

Re:Mod me down please (2, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729182)

You inadvertently used reverse psychology on moderators which *ALWAYS* seems to work. Phrases like "I know I'm going to be modded to hell for this..." guarantee a +1 moderation, at least.

Re:Mod me down please (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729220)

It's true. I just intentionally did it here [slashdot.org] on that lame-assed sid about LOTR nerds. The post went straight to +4 before anybody started modding it down.

--ZM, posting anonymously to stay at the karma cap

Re:Mod me down please (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729504)

Even though the individual moderation pts. are ungrounded, the thread as a whole is damn funny and insightful. Maybe they should find a way to moderate groups.

Impressive! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729204)

Now, that's how to karma whore!

Re:Mod me down please (0, Offtopic)

dagashi (60865) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729268)

jesus christ... talk about expert karma wh0ring.
what is that? 15 karma points in 7 minutes?
i've got a total of 16 and that's taken me 8 months damnit!"#%&/()/&%
NOW MOD HIM DOWN

Congratulations! (2, Offtopic)

r_j_prahad (309298) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729270)

You're going to hit the 50 point karma cap with three off-topic posts in a row.

Splendid, man, splendid.

Amazing (1)

freeweed (309734) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729290)

in the time it took me to read the response to his last comment in this thread, it went from 5-5-5 to 5-4-3. Easy come, easy go I guess :)

Re:The obvious full disclosure question (2, Informative)

brinkster (523812) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729529)

If you have been following this on bugtraq MS hasn't fixed the problem and it is still possible to hide the file. Click this link and a patched IE6 will tell you you're downloading a txt file but it's really an exe. http://kuperus.xs4all.nl/microsoft.txt [xs4all.nl]

USA Patriot Act (3, Informative)

pgrote (68235) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729126)

The article references this. Here are a couple of URLS on it:

Full Bill:
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.final.10 24 01.html

EFF Analysis:
http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terroris m_ militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html

OS monoculture (5, Insightful)

markj02 (544487) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729134)

If you have one predominant operating system, you have a very fertile ground for viruses. Whether Schmidt just refuses to acknowledge this or just doesn't grasp it, it's a fact of life. Microsoft itself is a major problem when it comes to security because of their size and dominance, and they would be the problem even if they were much more careful about security in their products than they actually are.

For this, as well as for many other reasons, it is essential that one operating system and one software company does not dominate the industry. The cost of dealing with cross-platform issues is the price we have to pay for a competitive market and a resilient infrastructure.

Suggestions that our salvation lies in uniformity, market dominance by one company, and bigness are more reminiscent of the central planning of the USSR than of what has made our society so successful. It's kind of funny to see that some of the most staunch conservatives and defenders of Microsoft-style laissez-faire economics seem to be falling into the same trap that the communists fell into.

Re:OS monoculture (1)

Mija Cat (94021) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729167)

Makes perfect sense.
True Marxist Communism is an outgrowth or end result of Capitalism.
The Leninist/Stalinist implementation of Communism attempted to jump to the endgame without having achieved capitalism first, and failed.
At least that's what the history profs around here say...
Meow!

Re:OS monoculture (1)

pigeonhed (137303) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729254)

In the interview Schmidt's background included the military, FBI and local law enforcement. Seems like a nice enough guy. Any Ex-Military, FBI, Law enforcement trained individual is going to look at security in a control and constrant sort of way. Schmidt appears to be good at security and an honest person, this does not mean I want him to make policy or be left unchecked. I am just saying he seems allot more like a showpiece for congress than a Microsoft employee. The corporation is the problem not some expert on military systems security. Not much to this interview other than the fact that Microsoft is really good at politics. How many companies lose a monopoly trial and end up expanding while writing their own sentence.

Re:OS monoculture (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729345)

This has an obvious corrolary: those who want better security/stability in the industry should work towards elluminating that domination and the barriers that keep it. This sounds obvious, especially on /., but it is not as obvious as it looks. "The cost of dealing with cross-platform issues is the price we have to pay for a competitive market" does not need to be true. Microsoft's biggest advantange is that a computer OS is not a commodity. This needs to be changed. (And it cannot be done by the Government. They do not have the power.) If the OS were a commodity, it would not matter what OS you choose, any program would run on it. That is, you load the CD, or finish the download, and it is ready to run (possibly after an installer), no matter if you are using *BSD, Linux, Windows, MacOS, or anything else. OS's would compete on stablity, ease of use, and extended feature sets.

It is almost this good on Unix-based systems. Almost. It could be better. It could work beyond. A model, in my mind, is Apple's Carbon-combatable programs. They run, seamlessly, on two completely different architectures. (And there is no techincal reason they couldn't run on more with just as much ease to the end user.)

There have been attempts to standardize. The flaw is usually that the intent is to standardize for programmers, not for end-users. I believe the technology exists to standardize to the point where:
It doesn't matter what OS you use.
It doesn't matter what window manager you use, on an OS that supports more than one.
It doesn't matter what language the programmer worked in. (As long as they can make the system calls correctly.)
It only matters what platform you are on if the programmer wants it too.
That is to say, it does not matter to the end user. They can buy/download a program and it works. They should not have to know any of the above to install and use the program.

What do you think? Can we create the world described?

Re:OS monoculture (1)

Neumann (240442) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729377)

What are you talking about that you have a very fertile ground for viruses? If linux was the only OS would the ground still be as fertile?

I think it's time (-1, Troll)

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Re:I think it's time (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729186)

Is it possible to get a -2 on this bullshitty McNiggerton?

software versus terrorism (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729139)

Why does this interviewer have to keep comparing software attacks with the September 11th terrorist attacks? About the only thing they have in common is that they are both malicious. Beyond that, it has no place in an interview about Microsoft security. Very poor taste, IMO.

- Just an AC

Real Threat (3, Insightful)

Tony (765) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729507)

If we have vulnerable systems, it is likely that terrorists will use our own weaknesses against us. As is mentioned in the interview, the cost of bringing down our communication systems is fairly small.

Remember the Morris Worm? It brought the entire internet to its knees, and Robert Morris didn't mean to release it. What if a "virus" (more correctly, a worm or trojan) is created that destroys every MS-Windows installation? This means more than just Grandma Jane's computer-- I mean military, telecom, and hospital-controlling computer in the world.

The threat isn't that great. Although it wouldn't be expensive in the monetary sense, it would be hard to engineer. But as long as the threat *exists,* it must be considered a potential.

- Tony

Typical responses? (2, Insightful)

mac.newbold (458837) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729142)

Isn't this the same old stuff we would expect to hear from MS? It sounds like it's just business as usual still. Someone points out that MS should feel responsable for the negligence they show in preventing errors (not to mention any negligence or undue delay in fixing them), and then MS just basically hands out excuses and changes the topic.

Anyone who knows that they're a market leader does have a responsability to see that their stuff isn't going to be the cause of the next great Internet collapse. MS is quickly becoming the leader in getting their bugs exploited, and with so much market penetration, we really could be facing quite a disaster when a better worm comes along.

Does anyone out there work for some other big company with lots of market share? What type of responsability do they assume for the security of their products?

Mac

Hard question dodging 101 (5, Insightful)

plover (150551) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729144)

Q: But that kind of begs the question, because it wasn't completely unthinkable, like someone flying a plane into a building. At the time when all these features were being rolled out, programmers online were screaming left and right that this was inevitably going to result in these massive incidents, and, sure enough, they did.

A: If you look at the development process, and how long it takes to develop these things and get them out the door, this is not something that people started working on six months ago, and the developer community is saying this is a bad thing. This is stuff that has been in progress for years, which is why we've had to effectively retool the way we do things internally, to meet that new threat environment.

I don't know if the interviewer changed tapes in his recorder or what, but this is the single most important question he asked, and it was completely and totally unaddressed. This one question drives home the problem with Microsoft security, makes him aware that yes, we were all SCREAMING "Stop the madness" BEFORE it rolled out, and he waves his hands saying that hmm, we're meeting the new threat environment. What?

Is there any chance that anyone of importance will see or read this interview? That's the shame. I'd love it if the appropriate congresspeople and/or attorneys-general could see this nonsense made more public.

Not that I expect anyone in his position to actually answer all the questions asked, but it'd be nice if his lips moved in sync to his words, too.

John

Re:Hard question dodging 101 (1)

siphoncolder (533004) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729201)

his reply did NOT completely avoid the question. the concept he's trying to get across is that the technology they come out with is stuff that's first churning away internally, away from public eyes. this process of innovation takes several years before it comes to public light. by the time developers are told of what redmond is gonna roll out next, this (by now old) tech they've got in the works is already on the roadmap, and will most certainly be lagged compared with what's next on the table, as well as fall short of the development community's needs in some way.

you think that they snap their fingers one day with a new technology and ignore developers for a couple of months? no, they work hard for years, and aren't about to turn back on their roadmap after the hard work they've done.

think.

Re:Hard question dodging 101 (2)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729471)

The hard work of having an option turned on by default, instead of turned off and with a series of 7 "Are you really sure? It's stupid... Y/N" dialog boxes prior to turning it on?

Yeah, try again.

What did you expect? (2)

Computer! (412422) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729216)

Q: But that kind of begs the question, because it wasn't completely unthinkable, like someone flying a plane into a building. At the time when all these features were being rolled out, programmers online were screaming left and right that this was inevitably going to result in these massive incidents, and, sure enough, they did.

A: Well, yes. You're right about that. We were given the signal loud and clear, and completely ignored it. We here at Microsoft are terrible at making software. In fact, please don't ever again buy any of our products. We are very, very bad.

I mean, this guy is speaking on behalf of a multi-billion dollar software giant. He is not going to risk his job by embarrassing his whole company. That's why companies like MS (GM, American Airlines, Exxon) hire guys like this. For reference, consult any presidential press conference.

Your sig doesn't compile (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729242)

I've tried it on several 'nix compilers. What does it do, anyway?

Re:Hard question dodging 101 (2)

Zen Mastuh (456254) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729404)

I think Howard Schmidt went to the Ari Fleischer school of question dodging and graduated with highest honors. Damn, there goes my karma--again!

Yeah...that makes sense (1, Troll)

Sabalon (1684) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729154)

I think it doesn't make any difference whether it is open source or closed source, it's a matter of identifying them once the product is released.

So...who cares if there are problems. We'll find them eventually - as soon as someone exploits them and we hear about it. I wonder if they release their code like that for QA as well. It's a matter of identifying bugs once the product is released.

I understand that you problems happen, but this is kinda like shoving things under the carpet and hoping no-one looks - or to use his analogies - letting the burgler in the front door of the apartment complex and hope that all the doors are locked, but ask him on the way out where he got the loot from.

True reason MS won't release the source code for a security audit:
~$ df
/home 200M free
~$ cd windows/source
~/windows/source$ find . -name "*.c*" -exec grep -l gets {} \; > ~/
volume /home: disk full
:)

Re:Yeah...that makes sense (2)

Sabalon (1684) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729162)

Oops...that should be
~/windows/source$ find . -name "*.c*" -exec grep -l gets {} \; > ~/msholes

Re:Yeah...that makes sense (1)

adamy (78406) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729315)

Naw, they macroed it

#define SECURE_GET_STRING gets

Re:Yeah...that makes sense (2)

BlueLines (24753) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729302)


True reason MS won't release the source code for a security audit:
~$ df
/home 200M free
~$ cd windows/source
~/windows/source$ find . -name "*.c*" -exec grep -l gets {} \; > ~/
volume /home: disk full


umm, that would match fgets(3) as well, which is much safer.

-BlueLines

Nail on the head. (3, Informative)

Ungrounded Lightning (62228) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729522)

I think it doesn't make any difference whether it is open source or closed source, it's a matter of identifying them once the product is released.

So...who cares if there are problems. We'll find them eventually - as soon as someone exploits them and we hear about it.


Precicely.

If you want bug-free code you need to start at the architecture/design process (avoiding bug-prone choices), then debug as you go. It's like growing a perfect crystal - you push the impurities out as it solidifies, so only the boundary needs attention. The longer you wait, the larger your search space for each bug, and the bigger the hive of ofspring each bug has produced as new code was added to buggy code.

Security issues are a special case of "bugs", with more than the typical amount of effort needed at precoding stages to avoid building unfixable problems into the basic architecture.

I wonder if they release their code like that for QA as well. It's a matter of identifying bugs once the product is released.

My impression is that Schmidt is completely unaware that software QA, or any other pre-release potential for (securyty) bug suppression, exists. At a minimum his statement implies that Security as a department doesn't participate in architecture, design, code reviews, or QA, and that its leader either feels no need to do so, or is deliberately directing attention away from an inability to affect those stages.

That the head of security for Microsoft could emit such an answer is appalling. But it also goes a long way toward explaining the security problems in Microsoft products.

aggregate function (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729155)



God damn I ran into Hemos maybe three weeks ago and he is so fucking fat. Jesus God. How can anyone talk about morality when that fat fuck is corralling obesity like we don't remember.

Damn.

Maybe if you keep talking, noone will notice. . .

Woah. (-1, Troll)

LOTR Troll (544929) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729158)

All time record low number of posts for the amount of time this story has been on the front page. Looks like they're all at LOTR. Sad.

What does this have to do with LOTR? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729160)

HUH? Come On!

Mistyping of what he _actually_ said... (2, Funny)

joebp (528430) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729163)

Q: You're the chief security officer of Microsoft. Explain for us a little bit how security fits into the Microsoft corporate structure.

A: Security?

Q: ... yeah, security ...

A: Oh... that......... Our policy is to blame the people who find the holes in our software...

Q: What about the people who put the holes in the software in the first place?

A: Yes, of course. We're currently trying to purge the Al Quida factions from our programming team.

They're trying (4, Insightful)

--daz-- (139799) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729174)

Microsoft has been getting better. Many of the current IIS exploits aren't in IIS at all, but in ISAPI extentions like Index Server (Code Red exploited this), and HTTP Printing in Win2K. Almost all of the exploits released last year and this year could've been blocked by simply following MS' security checklist.

Needless to say, sysadmins apparently don't read checklist, follow best practices, or pay attention to alerts. I have seen real movement from MS (on their site, in comments on NT BugTraq, and in other places) that they take this security stuff seriously now, and they are coming out with some good tools (they're even subcontracting them to get them faster and by security companies who have a better track record) to help automate patch downloading and installation, scanning of network resources for missing patches, remote deployment of patches (for those 500 web servers you have in your datacenter), and various checker tools which will basically verify the security checklists for you.

Apparently MS realizes they made a wrong decision in their approach to security (trusting the sysadmin's dilligence), and they are making strong strides to change this now, and in the future.

I know many of you dislike MS, but you must give them at least that.

Re:They're trying (3, Troll)

swright (202401) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729224)

This is exactly what gets me about MS...

trusting the sysadmin's dilligence

Yeah, thats why they have system files hidden and an explanation of what the Start Menu does on Windows 200 Advanced Server

The point of MS's software, pure and simple, is that the user doesn't have to even think to be able to use it... which is totally contradictory to a the idea of a productive yet secure system...

thoughts of desperation follow...

Re:They're trying (5, Informative)

(H)elix1 (231155) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729518)

Apparently MS realizes they made a wrong decision in their approach to security (trusting the sysadmin's dilligence), and they are making strong strides to change this now, and in the future.


You think they are making strides to clean this up? Looks like patching the PR to me. Take a look at this...
MS rolls out security obscurity bribe program [theregister.co.uk]

[microsoft.com]
Code of Conduct:
Microsoft Gold Certified Security Solutions Partners are leaders in the security industry, not only in their products and solutions, but also in their standards of behavior. All Microsoft Gold Certified Security Solutions Partners shall follow a code of conduct regarding the responsible handling of security vulnerabilities. This code of conduct is intended to allow a product vendor to address any individual vulnerability and issue a patch, workaround or other response to the public. Microsoft Gold Certified Security Solutions Partners shall take reasonable steps to ensure that they do not publicly disclose details that would directly allow an outside party to develop or execute an attack exploiting the vulnerability.

This Guy (2, Insightful)

AciDive (543624) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729176)

Sounds more like the head of Marketing at Microsoft than the Head of Security. Most of his answers were the same marketing BS that come out of Micro$oft every time you ask anyone from there a question. I just wish Micro$oft would give straight answers instead of Marketing BS.

Re:This Guy (1)

jnana (519059) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729545)

No, he is head of security, AKA 'chief rent-a-cop' for Microsoft. He's an obvious law enforcement type, and the interview doesn't evince any technical knowledge at all.

O...h T...he 3 is quite silly (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729184)

OT III
[Operating Thetan Level 3]

BODY THETANS

by L. Ron Hubbard

The head of the Galactic Federation (76 planets around larger stars visible from here) (founded 95,000,000 years ago, very space opera) solved overpopulation (250 billion or so per planet - 178 billion on average) by mass implanting..

He caused people to be brought to Teegeeack (Earth) and put an H-Bomb on the principal volcanos (incident II) and then the Pacific area ones were taken - in boxes to Hawaii and the Atlantic area ones to Las Palmas and there "packaged".

His name was Xenu. He used renegades. Various misleading data by means of circuits etc was placed in the unplants. When through with his crime loyal officers (to the people) captured him after six years of battle and put him in an electronic mountain trap where he still is. "They" are gone. The place (Confederation) has since been a desert.

The length and brutality of it all was such that this Confederation never recovered. The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc) anyone who attempts to solve it. This liability has been dispensed with by my tech development. One can freewheel through the implant and die unless it is approached as precisely outlined. The "freewheel" (auto-running on and on) lasts too long, denies sleep etc and one dies. So be careful to do only Incidents I and II as given and not plow around and fail to complete one thetan at a time.

In December 1967 1 know someone had to take the plunge. I did and emerged very knocked out, but alive. Probably the only one ever to do so in 75,000,000 years. I have all the data now, but only that given here is needful.

One's body is a mass of individual thetans stuck to oneself or to the body.

One has to clean them off by running incident II and Incident I. It is a long job, requiring care, patience and good auditing.

You are running beings. They respond like any preclear. Some large, some small.

Thetans believed they were one. This is the primary error.

Good luck.

* * *

For the purpose of clarity, by BODY THETAN is meant a thetan who is stuck to another thetan or body but is not in control.

A THETAN is, of course, a Scientology word using the Greek theta which was the Greek symbol for thought or life. An individual being such as a man is a thetan, he is not a body and he does not think because he has a brain.

A CLUSTER is a group of body thetans crushed or hold together by some mutual bad experience.

----------

Character of Body Thetans

Body Thetans are just Thetans. When you get rid of one he goes off and possibly squares around, picks up a body or admires daisies. He is in fact a sort of cleared Being. He cannot fail to eventually, if not at once, regain many abilities. Many have been asleep for the last 75,000,000 years. A body Thetan responds to any process any Thetan responds to.

Some body Thetans are suppressive. A suppressive is out of valence in R6. He is in valence in Incident I almost always.

One can't run a human being on these two incidents since human beings are composites and would not be able to run the lot. Aside from that, non-clears are way below awareness required to even find these Incidents.

Huge amounts of charge have already been removed from the case and the body thetans by Clearing and OT I and OT II to say nothing of engrams and lower grades.

Awareness is proportional to the charge removed from the case.

Although a human is a composite being there is only one I (that is you) who runs things.

Body thetans just hold one back.

You will continue to be you. You, inside, can of course separate out body thetans and so solo auditing is the answer. How good do you have to be to run body thetans off? Well, if you didn't skip your grades, Clearing and OT II particularly, you. should be able to'command body thetans easily.

* * *

Incident II is over 36 days long. Capture on other planets was weeks or months before the implant. Those on Teegeeack (Earth) were just blown up except for Loyal officers who were (shortly before the explosion on Earth) rounded up.

Do not scan through the duration of 36 days. The volcanic explosion on Earth to the point where "the pilot" says he is mocking it up is only a few days.

Sequence of Incident II for thetans on another planet -

1. Capture (being shot),
2. freezing,
3. transport to Teegeeack (sometimes via a relay point),
4. being placed near a volcano,
5. beginning implant up to "the pilot",
6. various picture sequences,,
7. the 7s and C.C. and OT II materials,
8. 36 days of picture implants which give a vast array of materials and three explanations for the bombing,
9. transport to Hawaii or Las Palmas for packaging up into clusters.

The pictures contain God, the Devil, angels, space opera, theaters, helicopters, a constant spinning, a spinning dancer, trains and various scenes very like modern England. You name it, it's in this implant we call in its entirely "R6"- if one was a Loyal Officer on Teegeeack, the sequence was (1) capture (2) number 5 above on. If one was a citizen of Teegeeack there was only number 5 on.

The material given at the various "volcanos' was longer or shorter, but dovetailed into the same sequence of pictures. We have the whole text but it is needless.

People who feel dizzy have gotten into the spinning part.

Incident I occurred about 4 quadrillion years ago plus or minus. it is very much earlier than Incident II which occurred only 75 million years ago (a bit less).

Incident II is only peculiar and general on this planet and nearby stars, whereas Incident I is to be found on all thetans.

----------

The Basic on BT's

I've isolated a way a thetan comes to be stuck to another thetan. This gives the basis of clusters and having BT's. A thetan collides with another. That one makes a picture of being collided with. Other BT's get stuck to the picture.

The moment of actual contact of thetans was brief but the picture (containing a stop or withdraw) tends to be permanent.

Thetans then get the idea they can be permanently stuck as they see pictures of it happening.

Thus we get the concept of a "black theta body". This would be actual BT's stuck to a thetan plus pictures of BT's stuck to a thetan.

An answer to all this is to find the first picture a thetan made of contacting another thetan.

If not at once available the earliest instance of a thetan contacting (colliding, running into, attacking) another thetan could be achieved by R3R on being suddenly hit with clusters or strange beings.

The idea is to find and run the "first picture" one made of another thetan.

This opens another way to "blow off" BT'S - run R3R on a BT to the first picture the BT ever made of another thetan.

----------

Instructions

Locate by meter read or an area of pressure, a body thetan or group (cluster). Run Incident II. If the BT does not blow off or 'the group break up and blow, then run Incident I on individual BT's. Each will blow off with an FIN.

When you can find no more on which to run Incident I's, once wore locate a pressure area or by meter read on looking over body run another Incident II. Then Incident 1's on any.

Incident II made clusters of BT's. Severe impacts and experiences ALSO make clusters. (See the data called "Milazzo" in this pack.) Those who do not leave on running the impact or its chain will leave when Incident I Is run on them.

Incident II sometimes forms gigantic clusters. In such there is a leader, an alternate leader and several (eight to eighteen) more. These were all implanted in different volcanic areas with fractions of the nain 36 day implant and then "packaged" in Las Palmas or Hawaii. Thus if you run Incident II as far as "the pilot" it blows up or loosens up and those who don't go away can be run on Incident I's.

Do not speak your commands. Just "intend" them. A BT controls easily. BT's can be ARC broken by rough or careless auditing. You can also run an incident II on a BT and he doesn't blow, but you accidentally run in Incident I on another one and leave the first still there. The remedy is to run Incident I's on anything you find.

A very SP BT can be run on grades and Power and should then respond to Incident II and Incident I.

After a BT leaves, some other BT may copy him or the incident just run.

If you have found a cluster (pressure area) that does not respond or disintegrate to Incident II running, get Dianetic auditing, listing "What impact or incident would cause a cluster?" and R3R on the items found. Then do more Incident I's to clean up the strays with solo. This is a refined "Milazzo".

There are hundreds of BT's you will find.

If you find none, get audited on Dianetics in general and as above (impact list), and if you still find none, get a Review GF40 and handle all items, then go back to solo.

If you find only one or two, get the Dianetic impact list. done. All "none on OT III" cases were later found loaded.

Do Incident II and Incident I's on what you can find to begin with. You will do fine. Good hunting.

Certain "buttons" have to be gotten in where running a thetan through incidents. The EFFORT TO STOP the motion hangs up the action and gives a stuck picture. One gets the EFFORT TO STOP off and the scene races through.

The EFFORT TO WITHDRAW is important also and hangs up the action and creates a vacuum.

RUSH, PROTEST* NOT-IS, SUPPRESS are also present. These were actions - thoughts - the thetan had during the Incident and are picked up only when the incident doesn't run well. Sometimes two "buttons" such as STOP and WITHDRAW are in combination.

Thetans in the body may obsessively copy the pictures of other thetans. Therefore you can find it seems that the thetan who just left is still there because there is a picture left. Spot the fact that someone else copied it and it usually goes.

If you do an S & D on a body thetan be sure you give the right item to the right thetan.

----------

Cross Auditing

When one runs Incident I out of one thetan and then Incident 11 out of another (thinking it was the first one) one can get a partially run body thetan who won't blow, but who may start to go on through the whole of R6 automatically (since the basic-basic Incident I is not run, yet Incident II is). One can get quite ill doing this as the illness in R6 can turn on.

One can also "feel no wish to audit". All "no desire to audit" is some large blunder on a case. The way you can run Incident I out of one thetan and Incident 11 out of another is rather easy. one fails to notice the first one blow on having Incident I run and runs Incident 11 on another.

As a matter of data, the only trouble in a III OT run is running an Incident I on one thetan and an Incident II on another, thinking it was the first one. A pre-OT can freewheel into R6 if you run only an incident II. You can stop a freewheel at once by running Incident I off the same thetan you ran the Incident II on that started a freewheel.

Freewheel means that the PC goes on automatic continuous run. Incident II is R6 75,000,000 years ago. Incident I is about 4 quadrillion years ago. Both, all thetans on this planet and 21 nearby stars have in common. All thetans in the universe have incident I. Only those in this old Confederation have Incident II and R6. All C.C. and OT II materials are in R6 75,000,000 years ago. These are followed by 36 days worth of motion pictures - God, Devil, space opera, trains, cars, helicopters, crashes, stage etc. This R6 is 75,000,000 years ago and this planet and Confederation.

If the volcano bit is run as per III directions but the Incident I Is not run on the same thetan, R6 begins to run off on automatic, the Being can't sleep for days, the body dies. That's the way it was designed.

----------

Overrun on III

The only way you can get a read on "Overrun on III" is to have accidentally run Incident I out, and then later run it out again on the same thetan or make a similar blunder. Example: One flattens Incident I by several passes on a body thetan. This body thetan for some reason (mostly because Incident 11 was then not run) does not fly off. Then, not noticing, one again finds the same thetan and once more seeks to run Incident 1. One then gets, in answer to the question "Overrun on III?" a lot of reads and overrun phenomena. The remedy is to find out WHO was overrun and get the charge off by that action. One then runs Incident 11 on that thetan or in any event, by getting off the charge of "overrun", letting the thetan depart. Just because one's meter reads "Overrun an III" is no reason to attest. Find out who was. lt's almost always a body thetan.

A BT can be overrun past erasure. This fact sometimes causes a solo auditor to believe OT Ill is overrun. If he asks "Is OT III overrun?" he may get a read and blowdown. This is actually usually just one BT or cluster that is overrun. The remedy is discovering and indicating the point of overrun. And carry on with OT III.

----------

Running OT III

When running OT III the solo auditor handles body thetans as he would any other PC, for the general idea is to run them standardly and not ARC Break them. He does not scan through anything in order to find body thetans.

When a solo auditor can find no more body thetans he can attest, or run a pressure area down and handle as per his running Instructions.

The pre-OT could be exterior and the Interiorization processes can be run in Review to help him through.

Here are three reasons why a pre-OT might have trouble whilst running BT's on Incident II -

(1) It is the wrong area;
(2) it is not the volcano of the BT being run;
(3) it is not an Incident II, but another incident of a different date.

Check (1) and (2) If you are having any difficulty in running Incident 11 and handle by locating the correct area or finding the volcano of the BT being run. if it is not a II, simply check for the date and if different run it-.

----------

OT III Errors

Amongst OT III errors are "a BT run on Incident I fails to blow". There are three reasons:

a. Auditor is trying to run a cluster with an Incident I. The right thing to do is date and get the character of the incident that made it a cluster and then run Incident Its on those left when it breaks up. Or get Dianetic auditing.
b. There is an earlier Incident I on the same BT. Find it and run it. The BT has a chain of them all by himself.
c. Another BT is copying the Incident I just run so it looks like it didn't blow. Failure to ever run Incident I can also cause a bog. Routine Dianetic auditing by a Dianetic HDC who is also on or above OT III using triple flows and LDN OT III also handles bogged OT III pre- OT's.

----------

Cluster Formation - Cumulative

In doing a cluster one is likely to find it is made up of other earlier clusters. This looks like this. 1898 impact horse accident. When engram 1898 run on R3R, that part blows. No F/N occurs, TA remains up. Remainder will grind after the blow. Earlier portion dates as 93,000,000 years ago, electric shock. When run on R3R, that part blows, no FIN. TA remains up, will grind if run further. Earliest portion dares as 72 trillion implant. When run on R3R, all blow, FIN.

A cluster or engram which is a cluster can repeatedly FIN as BT's blow. Dates as 778 million explosion. After run once or twice an FIN occurs as one BT blows. Run again to second FIN as two more BT's blow. Remainder blow with a wider FIN. The cluster has gone. This happens (repeating FIN) when picture persists and noter check reveals it is not a copy. It will be more BT's in same cluster. So above repeating FIN occurs when pre-OT is moved through it. Clusters are found by meter dating, listing for type of incident and run as an engram. Clusters can occur at Incident .II and Incident I. They can also occur at 1 quadrillion, which is the Clearing course materials. They also occur at random dates for different reasons.

* * *

I have lately been C/Sing a number of failed OT cases and have found them all running well on solo now. The errors are made as follows:

1. The solo auditor cannot audit, needs more training.
2. Cases are not well prepared with Dianetics.

The remedy for all of these is to:

a. Run the PC for at least a score or two of Dianetic items by R3R, done of course by a good HDC,
b. then do a GF 40.

And then repeat it until necessary auditing is complete. These two actions take care of the majority of difficult cases on OT

The real End Phenomena of OT III and OT IV is exterior with full perception. You can and should accomplish full stable exteriorization on doing the materials of III.

----------

Further III remedies:

3. High TA. This comes from not completing the Incidents I and II on body thetans.
4. The solo auditor puts too wide an intention on the BT and runs two or three when he is intending to run only one.
5. A cluster just won't break up. The remedy is a Dianetic session listing for impacts or incidents that would cause a cluster and doing R3R. The principle of earlier similar holds good. When this is completed, the solo auditor is sent back to solo to clean up the BT's shaken loose and to continue with OT III.
6. Rudiments go out on BT's. The remedy of course is to locate BT's who have out-ruds, put in the ruds and run Incident 1, at which the ST should leave.
7. A theta-bopping meter sometimes puzzles a solo auditor -on OT Ill. This means a BT is trying to exteriorize and can't. The remedy is to complete the partially run Incident 11 or Incident I or in extreme cages put the ruds in on the hung up BT.
8. One-hand electrode giving wrong TA read baffling the solo auditor with floating needles with a high TA. The remedy is to have two-hand electrodes handy and trim the trim knob so the one-hand electrode reads the same as two-hand electrodes.
9. A suppressive body thetan sometimes isn't auditable. The remedy is to run Grades IV or V on him.
10. By far and large the corniest error and which has been very prevalent is not knowing the materials of OT III or the content of Incident II or Incident I.

OT III is a vital grade. One fronts up to it and does it. When he is really done, the rewards of OT III and IV exceed his wildest dreams.

----------

Rudiments Going Out On BT's

When the ruds go out on BT's during the session the solo auditor recognizes the following:

BT critical - withhold from auditor
BT antagonistic - bypassed charge in session
No TA problem
BT sad ARC Break
Soaring TA - Overrun or protest (also more than one BT being run in error or it's a cluster)
Auditor tired - no sleep or incomplete Incident I's
Auditor dope-off - bypassed FIN or not enough sleep
Auditor no-interest - out ruds on BT's

A solo auditor who isn't sure what it is, but runs into trouble with a BT is smart to end off the session quickly, write down the full observation and get it to the C/S. The solo auditor who knows what he is looking at as per the above scale (and the C/S the C/S would give), handles it promptly.

BT critical = w/h = pull the withhold
BT antagonistic = BPC assess proper list (such as LlC) and handle
No TA (or case gain) problem = locate the problem and handle
BT sad = ARC Break - locate and handle itsa E/S itsa
Soaring Ta = C/R or protest (also more than one BT being run in error or it's a cluster) - find which and handle (running more than the one intended comes from too wide an intention)
Auditor tired = no sleep or incomplete Incident I's = check which it is and handle
Auditor dope-off = lack of sleep or bypassed F/N = check On sleep or rehabilitate F/N
Auditor no-interest = out-ruds on BT's = put in ruds.

----------

OT III Auditing

OT III pre-OT's got a reputation of being hard to run on Dianetics early on in Dianetic re-development. Only five reasons exist for this.

1. A person that high on OT grades audits fast and a comm- laggy Dianetic auditor can drive him up the wall.
2. Too quiet or too blurred TR 1.
3. A tendency to evaluate instead of using TR 4.
4. The numerousness of BT chains on the same item (the BT's being separated now) making several chains on the same item, which if not all run separately leave the PC ARC Broken with the bypassed charge of unrun BT's.
5. The OT II who is still on OT III and has been on it a while probably himself has no pictures and all the pictures he has are BT pictures.

The lower grades PC (before Clear) reacts as a composite Being, all on one chain, so to speak. He is separated into himself and the individual BT's and clusters of them when he gets to OT II, and so audits differently. He easily misowns the pictures thinking they are his. The big blowdowns you get on such a PC's item indicates several BT's have it in common. A solo III however will be found to have the same item on more than one BT in many cases.

* * *

The reason for low TA is unflat OT III phenomena. If a person has had a low TA in lower grades the keynote is to take it easy as auditor and COS. This applies also to any auditing given on upper OT levels.

That a PC's TA goes below 2.0 is a certain indicator of unflat OT III. He's still got some. When a person cannot handle OT III he is too much at effect. He cannot project his intention. And so can't run OT III. The new OT I and OT II, particularly OT II, are designed to increase a PC's ability to project his intention to others. If he can't, they overwhelm him and you get low TA or "none on III". Harsh, overbearing auditing or life. incidents have to occur, apparently, to drive the TA down.

Overts, disagreements expressed as obsessive agreement and other lower level matters are at the bottom of this in any Being.

But any case of low TA I have ever found has been:

1. overwhelmed in life;
2. unable to project intention;
3. physically inactive;
4. loaded with BT's;
5. tends to go out of valence easily.

in all this number (4) is the important point.

Endless OT III and low TA are alike - inability to project Intention, PC at effect. Remedy by lightly causing PC to come to cause, to be able to project his intention and thus flatten OT III. That will complete and finish off low TA.

* * *

It does not matter whether or not you ran Incident I and II on self. The End Phenomena of III is getting rid of all body thetans. This does not necessarily include self. If you overrun Ill it will be by trying to get rid of tore body thetans than there were or by then, having gotten rid of the others, starting In on self. So Ill is complete for purposes of overrun as above. If you have not done Incident I and II on self when above is achieved, attest completion and then do I and 11 on self.

EP's No BT's left [End Product: no BodyThetans left] - OT III

L. RON HUBBARD
FOUNDER

Tyops? (2, Funny)

Steve G Swine (49788) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729188)

Is there some sort of steganography going on in the typos of this interview?

At the same time Microsoft is victim... (0, Troll)

azatoth (3621) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729191)

of Internic hacking:

Try "whois microsoft.com"
And you'll get a good laugh at it :-)

(result is in capital letters so cannot be posted here because of lameness filter)

And btw this news has been rejected by slashdot.

Re:At the same time Microsoft is victim... (1)

adamy (78406) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729296)

Looks like they got apple.com, too

lamer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729386)

What does random microsoft subdomains have to do with hacking microsoft? You can call your subdomain anything you want.

It's already been on slashdot. Old news, was in one of the quickies.

just in case the link is /. ed (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729193)

Howard Schmidt is chief security officer at Microsoft. He recently testified before the House Subcommittee on Commerce Trade and Consumer Protection about the state of Internet and computer security. We tracked him down later to ask him about, among other things, cyberterrorism and the Microsoft's level of responsibility for the success of large virus attacks.
Schmidt served in the US. Air Force, the F.B.I, and local law enforcement. After Sept. 11, he was called back to active duty with the Joint Task Force for Computer Network Operations, the Department of Justice and the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center.

Q: In your testimony the other day, you listed a series of industries at risk for cyberterrorism or electronic intrusion. One of those you listed was telecom. What weaknesses are there in the telecom industry that haven't been addressed.

A: I think it all revolves around the people and the process. I don't know that there's a specific weakness. I think, generally, that the concern we have as the industry partnerships, are, are we all prepared, as the owners and operators of the critical infrastructure, to be able to respond to three major areas of concern for the value of the country. There's the national-security piece, which we saw, responded in 9/11. There's the law enforcement/public-safety piece, which has some relation to 9/11, but also we've seen in other venues, even simple things like when an ice storm knocks down the ability to communicate. The third thing is the economic viability of the nation. And that's our ability, because so much has been built, from an economic standpoint, around the technology piece.

I'll cite a telecom component during 9/11. I was in D.C. You're based in D.C., aren't you?

Q: Yes, I am, right off K Street, three blocks from the White House.

A: So you know what it was like. I don't know if you tried to use a mobile phone, or you saw people lining up at the payphones, only to be able to get no signal. Those are the sort of things that we probably need to have more redundancy issues and have some resiliency on...

Q: Capacity issues...

A: Right.

Q: Oddly enough, I worked the whole afternoon. I think I was the only person in downtown Washington, and I had no problem getting people on the phone. I was just blessed, I think.

A: I was up at the Capitol, and I tried my darndest to get my cell phone working, and had no success. Interestingly enough, when I got down to Northern Virginia, outside some of the towers, I was able to call around the company with little or no problems.

Q: How big a cyberterrorism threat is there? Let me define that a little better, because it's a meaningless question in some ways. How severe a threat is there of an Internet-based attack that does widespread economic or functional damage by a state-sponsored group or an independent group of terrorists, as opposed to the normal intrusion, denial-of-service attacks and virus problems we usually see?

A: That's a tough question to answer, because I don't know if that question's been asked in all the appropriate circles. If you look at everything from Sen. Nunn's hearing, back in 1997, to the report of the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection, one of the things that they look at is the availability of being able to do harm relative to the cost. So when you talk about the actual threat piece of it, the cost is relatively insignificant. It's a piece of code that you write to go do something bad, and now the availability of those sort of things is very widespread. People have computers in their homes, connected to DSL and cable modems, so the cost of the ability to do damage is down. The availability, by having a lot of systems out there to attack, is up, so that puts a threat picture out there that's more viable than it was a few years ago.

Q: Like leveraging box cutters to take out buildings.

A: That's correct. That was a relatively inexpensive way to create havoc. And if you do that on the electronic piece of it, some of the threats that out there, we really don't have a handle on how viable they are, but we can do some modeling, and building of threat scenarios, to see, given what tools we know are available to be applied with malicious intent, how much damage can be done.

Q: But do we know of any states or groups that have cyberterrorism efforts underway?

A: I think, publicly, what we know is that there have been a number of nations that have created information-warfare groups, and they've been fairly public about it. But as far as anything beyond the cyberhacktivism we've seen, I don't know if there's been anything publicly discussed about state-sponsored cyberterrorism cells out there, if you would.

Q: Give us the Reader's Digest one-paragraph description of IT-ASAC.

A: The IT-ASAC is a group of some of the key owners and operators of the infrastructure that belong to the IT community. It's a group of us that put aside any competitive differences to share information on best practices and vulnerabilities anonymously among each other to maintain the viability of the critical infrastructure. We also develop mechanisms to share that with the government as a sort of early-warning system, using our collective 24-by-7 information centers and the collective knowledge and expertise of our companies.

Q: You're the chief security officer of Microsoft. Explain for us a little bit how security fits into the Microsoft corporate structure.

A: I think security is recognized as the number-one priority across the company. That goes not only to operational security and securing our assets, but also to product development. In my role, I report to the CTO, and I have Advanced Security Strategy Group, which works on security architecture, security auditing, incubation of security-related tools and security policy across the company that transcends the operational groups as well as the development groups.

Q: One of the things that you took a position on in your testimony was on openness and security, in terms of being against people publishing exploit codes to point out weaknesses -- which in some sectors of the software-development community is considered a good thing.

A: What we're relating to is responsible reporting, and there's a difference. In some cases, it's tantamount to screaming "fire!" in a crowded movie theater. Responsible reporting means if you find a vulnerability, you contact the person in the best position to fix it, normally the vendor of whatever the product is, give them all the information possible so that they can create a fix, and then go out and get the fix installed -- as opposed to going out and telling everyone that everybody in this one apartment complex doesn't lock their doors or leaves their keys in their cars, which then opens them up to malicious attacks.

Q: I was at a cybersecurity event last night. I don't know if you know Richard Forno, CTO of Shadowlogic?

A: Yes, I do know Richard.

Q: He said his theory was "D3" -- "declassify, demystify and diversify (software)." All three of those things are not things associated with Microsoft. Is that a policy you'd take issue with?

A: I think any time we find any security vulnerability, we're one of the best in the industry to notify people of the details of them and give them the details to get it fixed.

Q: Microsoft, traditionally, though, although less so of late, has been known for having a relatively closed security-reporting and bug-reporting system compared to the *NIX and open-source communities. Has that changed, and how much?

A: Well, for one I think it's a misperception or an undeserved reputation. One of the things I hear most often is that people responsible for these things at their companies say they're seeing too many of these things. I don't think it's an issue about open-source, I think it's an issue about responsibly, once somebody reports something, we have to replicate what they've reported to make sure it's a product-security issue and not some hardware problem they've got, or some incompatibility with some other application they've got, to replicate that, analyze that, and put the patch out. I don't know of any time in the four years I've been here that that hasn't been a priority. It's probably a misperception and mischaracterization of our reputation.

Q: Today, some of the states came back with a proposal for opening up Microsoft code. What effect would that have about security.

A: [Explains that he is not involved in antitrust issues] I think the position has always been that you check the final product for vulnerabilities. Because there's a whole lot of open source out there that, day after day after day, there's more reports of vulnerabilities. I think it doesn't make any difference whether it is open source or closed source, it's a matter of identifying them once the product is released.

Q: How much of computer and network security should be handled by technology and how much by law enforcement?

A: Law enforcement's role is very much a reactive role. After something bad happens, then they come in, and I think they have an extremely vital part to help investigating these things to deter people from attacking these systems. But the idea on the front end is to use the people, the processes and the technologies to prevent these things from happening as much as we can, and if there's something we can't handle, law enforcement comes in and identifies those that have.

Q: I assume from your testimony that you guys supported the language in the USA PATRIOT Act on cyberterrorism and intrusion. Are we in danger of over-broadening the standard for calling something cyberterrorism to include routine exploratory intrusions and port scans and other minor events, in the heat of the moment after Sept. 11?

A: I have met with a number of attorneys both in the corporate world as well as the justice world, and I don't see that's the case. I think all the changes that were made in the USA-PATRIOT Act relative to online surveillance, relative to any cyber-related investigative capability, have revolved around not changing the thresholds of what it takes to get a search warrant, not changing the threshold of what it takes to get a wiretap, but streamlining the process; you have to prove with probable cause that something has occurred to get most of the court orders .

If I'm tracking somebody that's, say, involved in terrorist activity, and they're using a cell phone, and they can put the cell phone down from having a voice call to use the same cell phone to do an Internet message because they've got a Web-enabled phone, and then they go home and they use an online account to communicate further, rather than go get five warrants for the same thing, they don't have to chase the technology, they chase the criminal activity.

Q: One of the things you opposed in your testimony was federal security mandates for the industry. But there's a strong push for strong industry best-practices policies or government mandates. Christopher Painter (Department of Justice, Deputy Chief of the Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section] says the industries needs bet practices; he says, too often the industry has no plan for dealing with intrusions at all. Is there going to be pressure for government standards?

A: I hope not. What we've seen from time immemorial, market forces drive a lot of what happens in the development efforts. Standards don't drive it, because what happens, you wind in a situation where standards may turn around and inhibit the ability to innovate and the ability to build more secure products.

Q: In your testimony, you listed several attacks, virus attacks and others, some of them against Microsoft weaknesses, and some of them against Linux and other operating systems. But how much responsibility does Microsoft have because of its market share for security.

A: I think Microsoft has recognized that, because we are the market leader, we have a special obligation to improve security. This is an industry issue we're all working on, but because of that special role out obligation is increased. Which is why we created programs like the strategic technology protection program -- helping people get secure with a number of free tools, then getting them to stay secure by changing, fundamentally, some of our internal processes, to further strengthen the security that we've been working on internally.

Q: Some of the security problems with Microsoft products are things like buffer overflows. That happens in programming, and you fix it. But others seem like boneheaded decisions based on marketing. Things like enabling Windows Scripting Host by default on millions of consumer machines and making e-mail attachments executable. In these big virus attacks, doesn't Microsoft bear some responsibility for those choices?

A: I think that picture has changed. Once again, we've been developing stuff based on ease-of-use for the customer and what the customer requirements are. I think what happens now is that we've seen the threat picture change. I think it goes back to a physical analogy. If I leave my keys in my car because it's convenient for me, and somebody steals my car, is that my fault? Ten or 15 years ago, the likelihood of that happening was very, very low. But the threat picture has changed dramatically in most places.

That's the same thing that's happened with software. Those things were designed to make it easy for people to do the stuff that they were doing. It turns out that criminals and others with malicious intents have turned those good things into bad things. Which is why we've had to fundamentally ... the way we ship products. They will be shipped secure out of the box now. It may be a little more difficult to get some of the features turned on, but it's going to be more secure, because that's what the new picture warrants for us.

Q: But that kind of begs the question, because it wasn't completely unthinkable, like someone flying a plane into a building. At the time when all these features were being rolled out, programmers online were screaming left and right that this was inevitably going to result in these massive incidents, and, sure enough, they did.

A: If you look at the development process, and how long it takes to develop these things and get them out the door, this is not something that people started working on six months ago, and the developer community is saying this is a bad thing. This is stuff that has been in progress for years, which is why we've had to effectively retool the way we do things internally, to meet that new threat environment.

Q: I'll give you a cheerful quote from Rick Forno. He said one of our major security problems is "our continuing blind dependence on Microsoft operating systems."

A: Richard's entitled to his opinion, but I ask Richard or anyone else to look at the security vulnerabilities that have been identified in anything else that's out there, and the response mechanism. Until some time as we develop a society that's perfect in writing code, as you actually pointed out; until some time as we have perfect processes, then we have to do some level of maintenance, some level of fixing things. I agree that we all continue to do more work on it.

Quote from article. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729213)

"If I leave my keys in my car because it's convenient for me, and somebody steals my car, is that my fault?"

Just try convincing your insurance company otherwise. I'm just glad Micro$oft don't build houses...based on this quote they'd have plenty of windows (all different of course), and no doors.

Car theft analogy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729218)

I think that picture has changed. Once again, we've been developing stuff based on ease-of-use for the customer and what the customer requirements are. I think what happens now is that we've seen the threat picture change. I think it goes back to a physical analogy. If I leave my keys in my car because it's convenient for me, and somebody steals my car, is that my fault? Ten or 15 years ago, the likelihood of that happening was very, very low. But the threat picture has changed dramatically in most places.

Ten or 15 years ago, I still would have stolen his car if he was stupid enough to leave his keys in the ignition.

I Loved this bit... (5, Interesting)

schon (31600) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729225)

(When asked about full disclosure, and publishing of exploits)

In some cases, it's tantamount to screaming "fire!" in a crowded movie theater.

Yeah, except there really IS a fire.

So when there is a fire in a movie theatre, he's suggesting the person who notice it just quietly go and tell the management (who will wait to see if it's really a big fire, and then assign some staff to attempt to put it out), instead of telling the people whose lives are in danger?

Yeah, GREAT analogy.

Re:I Loved this bit... (2)

blakestah (91866) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729508)

I read that a little differently.

My take was that he was saying that EVERYONE vulnerable should be notified in the most efficient way possible, but no one else really needs to know. I think that is the theoretical goal from his point of view. ie: if everyone in an apartment building has a security issue, you tell them. You do not post it on fliers in front of the building, or broadcast it to criminals.

That being said, he, and Microsoft, are acting INCREDIBLY ignorant with respec to the way people use computers. People do not maintain computers, by and large. Paid administrators do, but home users work on it until something works, and then do not touch it out of fear that it will become a time sink. Eventually a bug is found, and they get remote rooted.I am still being attacked by computers on my subnet that have had IIS rooted and do not know about it. And that was puslished MONTHS ago.

ANY operating system serving ports on the Internet has to be watched and maintained. Until Microsoft realizes this, and actively provides for it, their products will continue to be the least secure around.

Did he really say that? (5, Insightful)

kilgore_47 (262118) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729227)

Howard Schmidt: I think the position has always been that you check the final product for vulnerabilities. Because there's a whole lot of open source out there that, day after day after day, there's more reports of vulnerabilities. I think it doesn't make any difference whether it is open source or closed source, it's a matter of identifying them once the product is released.
(bold added by me)

Shouldn't a company with Microsoft's resources be able to identify security holes before the product is released?
Maybe this "release-and-then-check-for-bugs" strategy explains why there are so many MS explots?

Re:Did he really say that? (1)

vinnythenose (214595) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729347)

Do you know how hard it is to check for security issues? You can have QA consisting of hundreds of people and they will not be able to replicate something that one in one million will. It's just numbers. They could catch all of the security holes before they made it to market if the whole market was their quality assurance.

Don't get me wrong, I think MS could do a better job of writing secure software, but looking for security holes isn't as easy as it sounds.

Re:Did he really say that? (1)

kilgore_47 (262118) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729364)

You're right, of course, but I just find it strange (and a little funny) that their Security Chief phrases it like the QA process begins after the product ships.

Re:Did he really say that? (1)

vinnythenose (214595) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729393)

Hmm, I guess my lazy reading habits have failed me once again. I missed that part, must have been about the time I got bored of the interview and started skiming (especially near the beginning about "hey, did you manage to make any calls after the planes hit the building?" oie. That was not a question that I needed to hear.

But regardless, I believe my point still stands, although QA should be starting before the product ships :) And in reference to some other posts, yes, bug checking should be done the whole way through the development cycle. But they do get through because of logic errors. Things that after a few months you find the bug, track it down and go "doh! I can't believe I forgot that case!"

Leaving keys in the car is still stupid... (5, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729243)

In response to the question about MS making Good Times into reality (having scripting in email on by default), he said:

If I leave my keys in my car because it's convenient for me, and somebody steals my car, is that my fault? Ten or 15 years ago, the likelihood of that happening was very, very low. But the threat picture has changed dramatically in most places.

I don't know where he was living 15 years ago, but where I grew up (granted I didn't have a car then), there's no way you'd leave your keys in your car and act surprised when it was gone in the morning.

If your car gets stolen because you left the keys in it, its not entirely your fault because it's illegal to steal the car regardless. But it was still bloody stupid.

If it was my friend who left my keys in the car, I'd be pissed as hell. And if the manufacturer put a spare key on every car in the exact same place so it was easy to find and my car got stolen, I'd join the class-action lawsuit that would surely result.

It's one thing to say that MS has good security, and non-disclosure is the right way to go, etc etc. He has to. But to dismiss this question as though it wasn't their fault, without even a "Yeah, we shouldn't have done that", I think is demonstrative of the thinking that led to the problem in the first place.

Basics of security (1)

towaz (445789) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729273)

How did he get a job in security even the basics of security in microsoft products are lacking......

so many users are creating accounts like administrator with out even a password and being allowed to leave it blank....Why not force a password?....this would also work better for microsoft, if the user forgets their password i am sure they wont mind charging for support.

war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance... (1)

Chief_Wahoo (544296) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729278)

regarding mr. schmidt... > i sure am glad the military/industrial complex is a fiction. otherwise i might think it suspicious that the man responsible for security on most of the world's computers works for the government. love your country. fear your government.

Deny Deny Deny (2)

N8F8 (4562) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729313)

Did someone interview the Security Chief at Microsloft and seriously expect to get somthing besides a politician? The guy even works three blocks from the WhiteHouse.

Balls? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2729358)

Never noticed but maybe the research is true

1. The sport of choice for the urban poor is BASKETBALL
2. The sport of choice for maintenance level employees is BOWLING.
3. The sport of choice for front-line workers is FOOTBALL.
4. The sport of choice for supervisors is BASEBALL.
5. The sport of choice for middle management is TENNIS.
6. The sport of choice for corporate officers is GOLF.

AMAZING CONCLUSION:
The higher you are in the corporate structure, the smaller your balls become.

Favorite quote... (1)

VGR (467274) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729408)

"Standards inhibit the ability to innovate"? Do I even need to point out the bashing potential?

Screaming "fire!" in a crowded movie theater (3, Interesting)

dica (27151) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729413)

> What we're relating to is responsible reporting, and there's a difference. In some cases, it' tantamount to screaming "fire!" in a crowded movie theater.

But there is a fire. Its only irresponsible to shout "fire!" in a crowded movie theater if there isn't on, just like it would be irresponsible to post non-existent exploits to bugtraq.

Mr. Schmidt is suggesting:

  • If you see a fire start in a movie theater, the responsible thing to do is:
    1. don't inform anyone at risk.
    2. get up quietly.
    3. report the fire to the movie theater's manager.
  • If the fire is due to negligence of of it is irresponsible to tell people how the fire really started.
  • You have no moral authority to call the fire department, even if the manager refuses to evacuate the theater.

  • Geez... They must have cut their spin budget recently.

Logic fault (3, Insightful)

The FooMiester (466716) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729415)

Q: . . . things like . . . making e-mail attachments executable.

A: I think that picture has changed. Once again, we've been developing stuff based on ease-of-use for the customer . . . it goes back to a physical analogy. If I leave my keys in my car because it's convenient for me, and somebody steals my car, is that my fault?

No, it's not. But if the Foo Car Company set all their remote locks to open when you clap your hands thrice, for "when your hands are filled with grocery bags, to save you from searching your pockets for the key", and only allowed this to be disabled by opening the hood and clipping the red wire with the blue tracer, I'd say they would be responsible for my aunt's CDs disappearing.

Opening the hood and clipping a wire is farther than most people want to go when it comes to modifications. I'd even wager that it is more than many drivers are capable of. Searching around in the "control panel" is further than your average MS-Outlook user is likey to feel comfortable with. They are afraid of "breaking" things.

The car keys are in the user interface portion of the car, I guess my point is. It's "easy" to remove them, put them in your pocket, to provent unauthorized use. How "easy" is it to disable the trojan propigation in Outlook?

Standards, "Innovation", Best Practices (3, Interesting)

Relic of the Future (118669) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729447)

Standards don't drive [development efforts], because what happens, you wind [up] in a situation where standards may turn around and inhibit the ability to innovate...

Classic Microsoft... standards bad, embrace and extend good... we do it for security reasons, not because we're trying to leverage our monopoly power into yet-another market. I can almost understand the "don't tell anyone about the exploit until we have a chance to fix it" stance, but this makes me sick to my stomache.

I would be in favor of government standards of security. And not just because it would force more open standards, but because it's a good idea. Yes, it will probably not be easy to implement, and it might force MS to ship a product or two late, but at least it will enforce some needed checks from a company who's concept of security is identifying problems after product release.

New t-shirt slogan: (2)

Zen Mastuh (456254) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729450)

"My server got rooted, and all I got was assurance from Howard Schmidt that we have a special obligation to improve security"

Responsibility? (1)

TheLinuxWarrior (240496) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729470)

I'm sure the position is. We just write software. We're not responsible for anything bad that happens to you if you actually USE it in production.

number one priority? (4, Funny)

Dr. Awktagon (233360) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729534)

I think security is recognized as the number-one priority across the company.

After the interview, Mr. Schmidt realized that the question was actually about Microsoft's software products, and not about locking the doors each night at MS HQ.

Text of the interview (-1)

Genghis Troll (158585) | more than 12 years ago | (#2729549)

translated into html escape codes, for those who prefer them to ascii:

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