Running A Web Server On An Apple Lisa 2 266
pinqkandi writes: "Saw this come along the MacHTTP discussion list; some one got an Apple Lisa 2 running a web server. Quite an impressive feat. Be quick to check it out - they expect to shut it down about 8am CST on 1/2/02."
/. Effect (Score:1)
Re:/. Effect (Score:2)
Didn't someone have an Atari 800 [kl.net] hooked up through a terminal server and running a simple webserver written in BASIC? That would be older than this.
(It got /.'d [slashdot.org] all to hell, too.)
Down Already (Score:5, Informative)
How many more times do we have to
Re:Down Already (Score:5, Funny)
Slashdotted (Score:4, Redundant)
Not if we can't shut it down first!
Too late. I thought this would be pretty interesting, too.
Re:Slashdotted (Score:4, Insightful)
Really, can't you imagine that it worked? The more successful of an implementation it has, the more transparent and the least interesting it really should be: HTTP & TCP/IP are standards, and whether it's a Liza or a big piece of ratcrap with some neural nets going in it, the goal of web standards is that it's absolutely, postively irrelevant.
Correct IP address or is it shutdown already? (Score:1, Funny)
I expect it to shut down... (Score:1)
Oh wait, nevermind.
Damned
-Kef
does that mean.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:does that mean.. (Score:1)
Re:does that mean.. (Score:1)
Re:does that mean.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:does that mean.. (yes, sort of) (Score:2)
A serious reply to your jest: yes (sort of)
You can always run minix on your ST, for one.. and for another you can run Linux/68000 [kuleuven.ac.be] (or more properly said... you can TRY to run it :-)
I've always had an interest in reviving my ST as a terminal, to control an mpg123 playlist running on the Linux box. I like the "instant on" and "no noise" thing about the ST, but I'm too lazy to configure everything ;-)
Ok? (Score:1, Interesting)
I remember a few years back the guys ar l0pht had a mac plus (the lisa's younger brother) running as a web server. And some sick people actually made an Apple ][ into a web server.
Oh really? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Informative)
From the Netcraft FAQ [netcraft.com]:
I don't know that this is necessarily the case, but it may have bearing on the matter.
Re:Oh really? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Oh really? (Score:1)
Re:Oh really? (Score:3, Funny)
Ye gods, this is a more impressive feat than we thought. They've ported Solaris to a Lisa 2...?
Cheers,
Ian
Slashdot overdrive (Score:5, Informative)
Why not caching? (Score:2)
I used to think that people were asking too much of VA software to cache article links; so much work, so much to ask of
/.-ing really only occurs in the first 24 hours. Why couldn't a properly designed dynamic webpage set the link to a
I remember Taco(?) mentioning that it would be unfair to the server's advertisers, but I don't think its implausible to have someone contact the feature's producer and ask them permission to cache the story. Sure they lose the 1st day hits, but they were going to be
The level of caching service required is limited.
So expenses are limited to time for personnel to contact server owners (not much for a "journalistic" enterprise), some hardware, and some bandwidth (already procured). The biggest expense would be to modify slashcode to support it and tools for caching. The economic benefit (more like cost offset) to VA would be the added hits that would be otherwise (not) going to the story's server. It also adds value to
Is this really unfeasible?
Re:Why not caching? (Score:2)
Re:Slashdot overdrive (Score:2)
I'm surprised software this recent even runs on Lisa. My Mac history is a little rusty, but IIRC, System 7 came out around the same time as the first 68030 Macs were introduced. How's that for backward compatibility?
Re:Slashdot overdrive (Score:1)
The Mac Plus was even better, it used a 68000 and can run up to System 7.5.5, which was released when PowerPC 604 Macs were out.
Re:Slashdot overdrive (Score:3, Informative)
400K 3.5" floppy. But you could get it with a
10MB hard disk, which they probably have.
Chris Mattern
Re: (Score:1, Redundant)
Did you hear that? (Score:5, Funny)
Nice. (Score:5, Funny)
This has got to be one of the best slashdot linkages in recent memory. How do you expect anyone to see this reeking Lisa 2 thing if people with pretty major servers go under when slashdot links to them?
"Hey guys, check this out, some guy has managed to wire up an ethernet cable to his parrot's brain, they say if they get over 200 hits/hour his legs will explode. Anyway, here's the link."
NICE.
Re:Nice. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nice. (Score:1)
then u'd really get some page imprints as the thing reach critical mass...
Re:Nice. (Score:2)
Kill the computer and the Internet connection (and probably the iMac doing the routing)
Too bad. (Score:1)
Here's the original message (Score:5, Informative)
Hello All,
Due to the many requests, I just put on-line my Apple Lisa2 web
server.
Since I am not finished with my site content I am only going leave her
up till about 8:00am on 1/2/2002 US Central Time. Check it out at:
http://www.lisa2.com
Let me know what you think. As far as I know, She is the only Apple
Lisa2
based web server in the world, and she may be one of the oldest PC's
on the net!
My current config is:
Apple Lisa2
Lisa Screen Mod.
800K disk Mod.
1 Meg slot RAM
MacWorks+II Ver 2.5.5
XLerator 18 with 8 meg Fast RAM
Sun SCSI with QuickBoot ROM
500 Meg SCSI Drive with Apple ROM
Mac System 7.01?
MacTCP 2.06
MacHTTP 2.2.2
TCP/IP via MacIP to my RevB iMac running IPnetrouter.
iMac Modem @ 50K to net.
Thanks,
R
Re:Here's the original message (Score:1)
And someone expected *that* to withstand
</redundant-and-obvious>
Re:Here's the original message (Score:5, Informative)
This is one hot-rodded Lisa... (A stock Lisa has a 5MHz chip and either 512k or 1MB of RAM)
Re:Here's the original message (Score:5, Informative)
No longer a Lisa! (Score:4, Interesting)
This aside, it might not be impossible to get a stock Lisa 2 (or even a Lisa 1!) on the net. Microsoft (if you can believe it) had a version of Xenix for both Lisa models. One could potentially program some "http server" that operates over one of the serial lines or perhaps do something more baroque than that (e.g. implement serial line PPP+web server in user mode).
If someone can find me a copy of Xenix on 5.25" Twiggy media and a spare ProFile external HD (5 megabytes!), I'll put my Lisa 1 on the net. Yes, I own one.
I used to have a webpage about the Lisa. The server that held it (a 386) suffered an untimely demise after another administrator ran rm -rf /. Fortunately, you can still view the old content online with the help of the Internet Archive. Go here [archive.org] and here [archive.org] to see some of the old content.
The Apple Lisa Web Page will return someday, I promise...
--Tom
Re:No longer a Lisa! (Score:2)
---
Re:Here's the original message (Score:2)
Anyone care to shed some light?
Re:Here's the original message (Score:1)
Justin
Re:Here's the original message (Score:2)
Re:Here's the original message (Score:1)
As to the original issue, I now see what the question was. There would be a number of ways to handle this problem. Check out this LowEndMac article [lowendmac.com] for a number of ways to connect LocalTalk and Ethernet physically. As far as converting MacIP to TCP/IP, IPNetRouter handles this itself [sustworks.com].
oh - it's a mac ..... (Score:1)
It was a matter of time. (Score:4, Interesting)
Good show to whoever got it set up. Too bad it could never hope to handle a slashdotting...
Believe it or not, Mac Pluses and other 68k Macs (running either MacHTTP or some form of 68k BSD) seem to make pretty good servers for sites with fairly low traffic (Not to mention cheap!). Of course, you'll never see Slashdot running on a Quadra.
Nope (Score:2)
Check out EveryMac [everymac.com] for a list of macs models [everymac.com] by processor.
Re:Nope (Score:2)
Re:Nope (Score:2)
It's tricky. Some of the Quadra 610s had the 68LC040 processor in them, some had full blown 68040s.
I've got a Quadra 610 with the 68LC040 in it. I was using it for a DNS server (MacOS 8.1, QuickDNS) for a really long time.
Re:Nope (Score:2)
Re:Nope (Score:2)
Cruel Joke... (Score:5, Funny)
Cool, but as far as doing more Web with less... (Score:2, Interesting)
Repeat after me. What we need here is... (Score:1)
Re:Repeat after me. What we need here is... (Score:2, Funny)
A beowulf-cluster of Lisa's running machttp in a massive geriatric webfarm. Kind of a silicon heaven.
Well just find the place where they buried all the remaining Lisa's in the 80's[1] and your up and running
[1] Apple Legend
A new slashdot record (Score:4, Redundant)
Re:A new slashdot record (Score:5, Funny)
NES = Nintendo Entertainment System
-or-
NES = Netscape Enterprise Server
Either way, it could be quick ^_^;;
-Brian
Re:A new slashdot record (Score:1)
Re:A new slashdot record (Score:2)
Peace
Re:A new slashdot record (Score:2)
SupeRDuG
Re:A new slashdot record (Score:2)
Impressive, but... (Score:5, Funny)
The only danger of this is that is may be the first recorded death due to slashdotting.
Not that I'd dare, but.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Granted, I've not toyed with it under Linux, but it works just peachy in Windows.
"they expect to shut it down 8AM CST on 1/2/02" (Score:4, Funny)
- A.P.
The 8am shutdown isn't permanent (Score:2, Informative)
Slashdot Readers Don't Read! (Score:1)
There are too many lazy bastards on Slashdot.
Look at the 50 some odd redundant comments about the Slashdot effect on the poor Lisa box. I know it's hard people, but Edit/Find "slashdotted" would have prevented all the worthless posts.
You say that like... (Score:1)
Honestly. They put up a link to a Lisa 2 Web server and expect that it will stay running? The only redeeming conversation that's going to come out of this whole post is going to be the jokes made of it... (I personally like the Parrot-Brain one...)
No, Slashdot *Posters* Don't Read! (Score:2)
I weep for this machine.... (Score:4, Funny)
Slashdot: When bashing Apple and beatifying Linux is a way of life!
Re:I weep for this machine.... (Score:1)
Quite an impressive feat? (Score:2)
Besides, the Apple Lisa has more than enough RAM for such a task (512kB), there's room for both a real tcp/ip stack and a real webserver without having to wrestle for space. And I am sure it has a serial-port you can run PPP over (which is a really simple protocol, if you choose to implement only what you need).
And, as someone already has mentioned earlier in this thread, the Lisa mentioned is so upgraded that it is no longer really a Lisa. Which makes it even less impressive.
The shutdown (Score:3, Funny)
"WHAT? A little girl named Lisa, only 17 years old, and she's on the Internet? We've got to stop this, fast!!!"
We didn't take it down, THEY took it down.
It's been done before. (Score:4, Interesting)
So this bozo is going about it entirely the wrong way. It's not like its the first time anyone used a Lisa on the net. It's just that there was no HTTP back when the Lisa was new. Most people used UUCP and FTP.
Re:It's been done before. (Score:2)
Re:It's been done before. (Score:2, Informative)
(HA, and I'm only 21)
cruelty (Score:1)
Justice (Score:2, Funny)
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
It's not running as a Lisa (Score:4, Interesting)
The Lisa, unlike Macs until the 68030 machines, had an MMU, and hence could support a protected-mode operating system, which it did. So running a server on an original Lisa with the original software wouldn't be unreasonable. (You'd have to implement a TCP stack, probably in Lisa Pascal, but so be it.)
Unfortunately, Motorola was years late with MMU support for the 680x0 line, and Apple had to homebrew their own MMU. This didn't work very well due to limitations of the M68000 (fixed in the M68010, years too late), and added considerably to the parts count and cost. It also required that all Lisa programs be compiled without using register incrementation on instructions that accessed memory, because the 68000 couldn't back those out on a page fault.
Motorola was so close. If only they hadn't been late with the 68K support chips, we might have avoided the whole x86 era.
C'mon! If they can run a webserver on a PIC... (Score:1)
Look here [umass.edu] to see what I mean.
Has anyone ever done any web server for the Apple ][? (Back when Apple made good computers! Remember when Steve Jobs said "Apple ][ forever" in 1989?)
Okay, someone explain this.... (Score:2, Interesting)
%nslookup
Default Server: uinus.pair.com
Address: 209.68.2.73
> www.lisa2.com
Server: uinus.pair.com
Address: 209.68.2.73
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: www.lisa2.com
Address: 216.168.224.70
> 216.168.224.70
Server: uinus.pair.com
Address: 209.68.2.73
Name: wf.networksolutions.com
Address: 216.168.224.70
>
Re:Okay, someone explain this.... (Score:2, Informative)
HTTP/1.1 302 Found
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 07:00:24 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.3 (Unix)
Location: http://204.248.48.2
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html
antique computers (Score:1)
A few years ago, I intercepted a computer the size of a large deep-freeze, with a built-in keyboard and monitor, and the hard drive had platters slightly larger than a record. I was told it cost the business well over $10k when new. Unfortunately, I had no place to keep it, and it disappeared. Does anyone have information on a computer like this?
Re:antique computers (Score:2)
Lovely engineering, and our comms room will never be short of three-phase power as a result.
[the last cabinet was a wiring loom and multiload tapedrive (like a DLT library with TK50 tapes)]
i tried a webserver on my vic-20 (Score:5, Funny)
Oh yes (Score:2, Funny)
Earthlink dial-up access, one month....$14.99
One 2400-baud modem, used....$15
The pure sadistic delight of slashdotting an 18-year-old computer....priceless
Commodore 64 web server (Score:5, Interesting)
For those of you who doesn't remember the Commodore 64, it was a very popular home computer in the 80's and early 90's. It has 64k RAM and an 8-bit 1 MHz 6502 CPU.
The C64 web server is running the small uIP TCP/IP stack [dunkels.com] that is less than 4k large and uses only a few hundred bytes of dynamic RAM. Since it is written in C, it has been ported to numerous other systems such as the 8-bit Ataris and a number of embedded processors such as the Hitachi H8S.
Re:Commodore 64 web server (Score:2)
Are there... (Score:2, Funny)
Ohmygawd (Score:2, Funny)
You cruel, cruel person...
It could be worse (Score:2, Funny)
This was right before he fried the box by connecting it to a home-built 5 VDC power supply that had a 30 VAC hum.
gm
Handheld webserver is cooler (Score:2)
C'mon, a Lisa had the same hardware that people were running Unix variants (Xenix, SCO) on, I don't see that making it a web server in any big deal (except that the hardware is still running).
Now this software [mac.com], which lets you serve pages on a Newton handheld, pushes the envelope a bit.
Re:Webservers (Score:1)
TI-89! (Score:1, Interesting)
Of course you need a computer running serial-to-network pass-through to connect it to the net... But that's a minor detail.
Re:TI-89! (Score:1)
Re:Apple is rewriting history (Score:5, Informative)
Apple was working on the GUI long before they ever saw Xerox PARC's demo, and before PARC even started their initial GUI work. This was all documented on slashdot ages ago, when Apple released some early GUI interface docs to Stanford. Go hunt it up.
And to put to rest that OTHER stupid rumor, Apple did not copy Xerox's GUI. Xerox licensed certain aspects of their GUI to Apple. Apple needed only a couple of pieces to finish the job, and Xerox made good royalties from Apple, more than they ever made from their own products. Apple did not copy Xerox, the Apple GUI was substantially superior to Xerox's. Xerox and had almost nothing in common with LisaOS or anything else.
Re:Apple is rewriting history (Score:2)
Xerox made history long before Apple existed (Score:2, Interesting)
they were incorp. in 1977 [corporate-ir.net].
While I have a Xerox PARC document that states:
"We have been teaching Smalltalk to children since the Spring of 1974" (Smalltalk in the Classroom by Adele Goldberg)
And on another document (Methods for Teaching Smalltalk, Goldberg & Kay, 1977), there is a picture of what looks like a MacPaint program -- written by a student between the ages of 9 and 15 (granted the program is an extension of code written by adults) up to 3 years before 1977! Note that Mac was originally released (with MacPaint) in 1984!
So you can say that Apple learned a thing or two from junior highschool students (with guidance from Xerox PARC staff) years before Lisa or Mac was available.
some links (Score:2)
Apple did an admirable job popularizing some of these ideas and bringing to market a successful product, although in the process, they cut many corners. But Apple neither developed the groundbreaking ideas nor were they even first to market.
no, YOU are behind the curve (Score:2)
When we started the Lisa project in late 1978 our goal was to build a computer that would propel Apple in the business market of the 1980's.
If you actually look at the references I gave you, you'll see that the WIMP interface goes back to the late 1960s and early 1970s. Apple made some engineering enhancements, but they didn't invent the GUI.
Re:Apple is rewriting history (Score:2)
documented on slashdot
I rest my case.
Re:Wrong. (Score:2)
Re:Apple is rewriting history (Score:3, Interesting)
You are getting lost in technical details. The point of the Xerox work was to create a machine with an easy-to-use, intuitive WIMP interface for business and publishing applications. That's what Xerox delivered, and that's what Apple delivered as well.
I'd have to support the original poster -- the Lisa was the first GUI-based personal computer that I recall. Sure, there was one obscure workstation line (from Xerox) that was GUI based,
Why is one company's obscure product (Apple Lisa) any better than another company's obscure product (Xerox workstations) if they both were intended to serve the same purpose?
Apple is a company that does good engineering, good design, and good marketing. Apple created the first commercially successful personal computer with a GUI (the Macintosh). Why isn't all of that enough? Why this obsessive need to create a mythology around that company?