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Vim's Bram Moolenaar On Open Source And Vim 6.0

chrisd posted more than 12 years ago | from the vim-is-the-one-true-editor dept.

News 214

vimbigot writes "A nice summary of where Vim 6.0 has come from, with some insights into Bram Moolenaar's thoughts on Open Source, Charityware and large cooperative software projects. (a bit of irony in the `powered by emacs logo at the bottom !')"

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Last post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773264)

Please continue to next story

Re:Last post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773273)

Please continue on to suck my cock!

Hello mr. Bush (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773292)

I will suck your cock if i can bang your ass afterwards.

[Tsack] Ah! [Tsack] Ah! [Tsack] Aaaah!

Re:Hello mr. Bush (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773315)

i last fucked your mother but hey. she smelled like shit. but anyways i prefer vim > * > emacs.

First post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773266)

Fuck

Re:First post (-1)

negativekarmanow tm (518080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773801)

No it's not,

please go kill yourself now, fucking anonymous retard

First Dillo webbrowser post! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773272)

"Dillo" is the fastest webbrowser and it is the most secure! It supports HTML and nothing more; not even ftp, ftps, https, javascript, java, and cookies. Check it out at www.freshmeat.net over here! [freshmeat.net]

I'm curious (-1, Troll)

kemikalzen (173455) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773274)

It took me several years to actually learn to use Vi(m). How many people actually uses Vim and knows more than how to insert characters delete a line or a character here and there and save the miserable output from this horrid piece of software ?

Re:I'm curious (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773283)

i know more than these few things.... but hey. god gave me a brain... and i use it.

Re:I'm curious (1)

snipingkills (250057) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773287)

Have you tried completing vimtutor? I know the basics of wim because I can get by on that for now. When time permits I play to use more of vim's advanced features.

Re:I'm curious (0)

boltar (263391) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773293)

Not many. I think coders just keep adding useless stuff to these editors because its fun for them,
not because anyone actually needs or uses it. If vim was *really* VI iMproved then they'd have
given it logical command keys. I mean 'x' for
delete character?? Control-ZZ to exit?? Come on!

Re:I'm curious (1)

efgbr (470166) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773304)

It's "Vi IMproved" because it's a vi clone with extra features. Not with incompatible commands.

Anyway, I normally use :q! or :wq to quit. Didn't even know about Ctrl+ ZZ. And I also don't usually use x to delete a character also, I use the Delete key (and Backspace if I'm in the edit mode).

Re:I'm curious (2, Interesting)

CProgrammer98 (240351) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773332)

I have used Vi for years - I dodn't want to invest time in emacs because I'm a short term contractor and move from site to site a lot. You can always gurantee that vi or vim will be installed, but not many sites I've worked at have emacs - and were not willing to install emacs.

Vi is very very powerful, but it does have a steep learning curve. However, if you're willing to invest the time to become proficient, you probably will use it as editor of choice on unix systems. There's stuff you can do in vi that is very hard to do in other editors (with the possible exception of emacs :) )

Oh, and it'a actually SHIFT ZZ (or :wq ) to save and exit...

Re:I'm curious (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773302)

Several years?
Are you fucking retarded?
How long did it take you to figure out how to post to slashdot?
Either you are some kind of troll or the "pointy haired boss"..

Re:I'm curious (4, Interesting)

JPS (58437) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773322)

Well, I'm doing all my coding under Vim, and I've also written my PhD dissertation under Vim.
I still discover some cool commands from time to time, but you figure out the most important ones rather fast. Vimtutor is a pretty good start.

Re:I'm curious (1)

Creosote (33182) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773720)

I wrote a Ph.D. dissertation using vi and nroff/troff way back in the early 80s. When I got my first PC, I abandoned vi for WordStar and eventually WYSIWIG word processors, and thought I'd never go back to "mainframe editors" again. But here I am two decades later using Vim running under both Linux/Unix and Windows every working day (and most vacation days) of my life. It's just plain the most flexible and powerful tool for working with text documents there is.

I, too, am curious (5, Funny)

dimator (71399) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773334)

You call vim this horrid piece of software but earlier you said It took me several years to actually learn to use Vi(m).

A) Do you always spend "years" learning software you don't like?

B) Does your "learning" curve always hit a brick wall at the very first few commands that anyone else acquires in minutes?

Re:I, too, am curious (1)

archen (447353) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773497)

and strangely enough I've asked some MS Windows users similar questions...

Okay, that was flamebait =P

Re:I, too, am curious (1)

kemikalzen (173455) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773505)

A) I choose to use what i like. Vi is not exactly intuitive with it's cryptic keycombos. I'd rather use my creativity and learningskills to learn something that i actually am i able to grok. This particular software was one of my first encounters when starting to learn linux. I quickly learned that pico was much more intuitive, so i stuck with that for a while, as it supported all my needs at that point. Now, after groking linux to some extent I moved on to learning about FreeBSD, and i always had the opportunity of cd'ing into /usr/ports/editors/pico/;make;make install;
completely avoiding reinventing the wheel or even relearning the basics, if you will.
If it works, stick with it.

B) My "learning" curve, as you refer to it, does not always hit a brick wall. Sometimes it does, which puts me in a situation where i choose to either:

1) continue using that piece of software, forcing myself to learn it, even tho i'd rather spend my time doing something that i enjoy.

or;

2) spend my time doing something that i enjoy.

Hope that sorts things out for ya!

Re:I, too, am curious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773633)

Most of us quickly come to realize that pico is a toy program, neither worthy of consideration nor capable of accomplishing anything of significance.

Re:I, too, am curious (2, Interesting)

roguerez (319598) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773654)

I too once hated vi as much as you. In fact, I advocated the viewpoint that the original creator of vi should be hanged for what he did.

After having used pico for about a year it really started to annoy me. It's even less powerful than MS-EDIT (which it resembles). I started to use vi. I learned it the hard way: changed all my editor environment variables to point to vi and forced myself only to use vi. I had a vi mug standing next to me for reference (a vi mug is a coffee mug with the most often used commands printed on it, as if it were a reference card). After about a week of usage I was proficient enough to be faster in vi than in any other editor.

Surprisingly, the most irritating thing of vi when you don't know it (the command mode), turns out to be you're biggest friend in the editor after you've mastered is. It's so much more relaxed to keep your hands in same position the keyboard. You just don't need to move your hands, not to move the cursor, not the do commands. The hands stay in the same position with you're eyes on the screen (I think you really need to be a touch typist to get the best of this editor), and this is as relaxed as it can be. The only movement which changes your hands position is regularly pressing ESC to enter command mode. But this is so much easier than doing CTRL-BLA etc..

BIG VI HINT (1)

dar (15755) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773779)

I'm still surprised how many people (even long-time unix users) don't know this: ctrl-[ is the key-sequence for generating escape. Look at any ascii table.


I have changed my capslock key to be control on both windows and unix. So, I never have to leave the home row to enter an escape character.


BTW in a similar manner ctrl-h is the key sequence for backspace. A lot of the keys on your standard keyboard are "convenience" duplicates.

Re:I, too, am curious (1)

teromajusa (445906) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773755)

By not spending the time now learning how to use a real programmer's editor (emacs, vim, whatever) you are actually wasting your time because these editors speed up common program-editing chores. If you don't program, then by all means stick to pico. (and if you don't touch-type, go with emacs)

Re:I'm curious (2)

bero-rh (98815) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773340)

It does take a while to learn, but once you've learned it, it's the most powerful tool there can be.
Don't call it a horrid piece of software before you've learned how to use it.

Re:I'm curious (1)

CrazyBusError (530694) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773384)

I've used vim and gvim for ages and never had a problem except the odd time using vim on a putty (tm) terminal...

There are other editors, but the syntax highlighting is bloody useful at times.

(This is for cobol running on a unix system using windows terminals, so no, there's not a lot of choice)

I don't see the difficulty with learning the keys though, it's no worse than windows shortcut keys and a hell of a lot better than emacs or wordperfect shortcuts (well, that's my opinion anyway).

The only real annoying bug is that it doesn't work with a microsoft mouse with a scrollwheel. If you forget and use the wheel, you have to select another window for a few seconds and then select your gvim window again. Nothing major, but that's the only problem I've ever had with it.

Re:I'm curious (1)

thallgren (122316) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773454)

I'm using gvim6.0 and my scrollwheel works just fine. Running a X server on Windows.

Re:I'm curious (1)

CrazyBusError (530694) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773552)

I'm using the win32 version... Not out of choice, you understand...

Mouse wheel (1)

roie_m (260122) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773609)

Works perfectly over here, win32 native on several 6.0 betas as well as the real thing, all installed from the all-in-one executable. You've got a configuration problem, I'd say.

Re:Mouse wheel (1)

CrazyBusError (530694) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773856)

Argh. Probably. Whenever I use the scroll wheel on the win32 version (version 5.8, 6 beta and 6 actual), the cursor turns hollow and I become utterly unable to enter text. Tried every menu option and vi command I can think of but nothing works. I have to click on another window and then back on the vim window. Bloody wierd. Got the microsoft driver installed for the mouse, standard setup on win98.

Bollix. I give up, just have to remember not to use the scroll wheel.

Win32 Mouse wheel problem (Solution) (2, Informative)

YetAnotherDave (159442) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773970)

From the help file (I've tried this, it works)

intellimouse wheel problems:

When using the Intellimouse mouse wheel causes Vim to stop accepting input, go to:

ControlPanel
Mouse
Wheel
UniversalScrolling
Exceptions

And add gvim to the list of applications. This problem only appears to happen with the Intellimouse driver 2.2 and when "Universal Scrolling" is turned on.

---
btw: what the hell is the 'lameness filter'?
besides a pain in the ass when cutting/pasting...

Re:Win32 Mouse wheel problem (Solution) (1)

CrazyBusError (530694) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773999)

Cheers, dunno why, but my logical assumption was that if I turned it off for that program then I wouldn't have been able to use the scroll wheel. (I did look at the option previously but didn't try it). But I suppose that would have been too obvious.

So what exactly have I turned off? It still scrolls...

Re:I'm curious (1)

_defiant_ (120560) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773595)

I use the Windows version, and have the MS IntelliMouse Explorer. In version 5.6 gvim would do what you described, but in 6.0 I have had no prolems using the scrollwheel.

Not Irony (1, Offtopic)

irony nazi (197301) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773277)

Take it from the irony nazi:

The "powered by emacs" thing at the bottom is NOT irony.

Do people even know what irony is nowadays?

Re:Not Irony (2, Funny)

RatFink100 (189508) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773294)

I blame Alanis Morrisette.

Re:Not Irony (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773397)

Ah, but you see that is the brilliance of "Isn't it ironic". The fact that none of her examples are ironic makes the entire song ironic.

Re:Not Irony (0, Offtopic)

Guillermito (187510) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773512)

I have heard many people complaining about this song, and I think it is misundrestood.

The ironic part aren't the examples. The irony is implied in the chorus part:

"Well life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
When you think everything's okay and everything's going right
And life has a funny way of helping you out when
You think evertyhing's gone wrong and everything blows up In your face"

Basicaly it says that sometimes when you expect things to go right, they go awfully wrong, and vice versa. That's exactly the definition of irony [cambridge.org]

Re:Not Irony (1)

RatFink100 (189508) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773811)

The one about the man who was afraid to fly and when he finally did his plane crashed was ironic.

Re:Not Irony (3, Funny)

Zocalo (252965) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773417)

Do people even know what irony is nowadays?

I do. It means "Made or consisting of iron; partaking of iron; iron; as, irony chains; irony particles", but I think the definintion people need to understand is "Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs", which is actually what is happening, isn't it? I for one would have expected to see a "Powered by VIM" button or whatever it says rather than an emacs logo.

Both the above definitions are cut and pasted from dictionary.com [dictionary.com] before you follow up.

Re:Not Irony (4, Insightful)

smaughster (227985) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773478)

but I think the definintion people need to understand is "Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs", which is actually what is happening, isn't it?

That is indeed one of the definitions of dictionary.com, but it isn't a great one since it lacks a part about the incongruity containing a somewhat "humorous/sad" taste which is present in a real ironic case (pardon me for not being able to eloquently explain it, english isn't my native language). For example, if you tell a funny joke and in reaction I punch you in the face, that that is an incongruity between what might be expected and what actually happens but isn't irony.

Re:Not Irony (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773514)


Are you saying there isn't a touch of sadness associated with the Emacs
button?


--Matthew

Re:Not Irony (1)

Miles (79172) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773797)

Regarding your example, I can interpret it as ironic--particularly if you're not the one being punched or doing the punching. In this case, it might be an example of dramatic or maybe tragic irony.

In any case, the example you give hints at a greater story, which will probably result in more irony (whether the funny or tragic type).

Re:Not Irony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773819)

ok well you have the definition of irony, but your looking for dramatic irony:

2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance

punching someone as ou described it most certainly irony, just not the dramatic irony you would see in a book or film. but the emacs button is dramatic irony only if he put it there as a joke and really did the site with Vim, as it is humorous and sardonic in that case, otherwise its ironic, but not intentionally so.

Re:Not Irony (1)

Draxinusom (82930) | more than 12 years ago | (#2774013)

Cf. usage note on ironic, ibid.

Usage Note: The words ironic, irony, and ironically are sometimes used of events and circumstances that might better be described as simply "coincidental" or "improbable," in that they suggest no particular lessons about human vanity or folly. Thus 78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of ironically in the sentence "In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York." Some Panelists noted that this particular usage might be acceptable if Susie had in fact moved to California in order to find a husband, in which case the story could be taken as exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us. By contrast, 73 percent accepted the sentence "Ironically, even as the government was fulminating against American policy, American jeans and videocassettes were the hottest items in the stalls of the market," where the incongruity can be seen as an example of human inconsistency.

Re:Not Irony (1)

WINSTANLEY (229048) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773567)

I actually think it is ironic just not very descriptive. The various meanings of ironic leave room for (as I read the dictionary) room for both intentional and unintentional occurences or utterances of a incongruous nature.

The important point here is that ironic doesn't mean much, because the question that jumps to every one's mind is whether to take the statement of "powered by emacs" at face value.

Since I don't, I think the more useful description is to say the text is facetious, i.e.,
intentionally humourous.

Re:Not Irony (2)

shaper (88544) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773864)

Do people even know what irony is nowadays?

Nah, I take my shirts to the cleaners.
- The Boss from Dilbert

VIM the only editor (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773278)

vim owns :-) fuck off emacs niggers why installing an OS if you just want the EDITOR :)

Re:VIM the only editor (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773388)

yeah gibbor me -1 hahahah that score owns... doesnt change the fact that emacs is for niggers.

VIm is dog shit! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773279)

So is emacs! JOE IS THE WINNER
Even Ms notepad is better than than vim and emacs!

Re:VIm is dog shit! (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773296)

Your opinion of VIM and Emacs is correct.

Another point worth mentioning is that out of all four of the text editors (yes Emacs is just a text editor), only MS Notepad seems to follow the Unix philosophy. That's right, the Unix philosophy of having just the right tool for the job and keeping each tool small and simple is exactly how MS Notepad can be described. Somewhere along the line, the editors have gained bloat becoming more than they were ever supposed to and losing all simple-elegance that they might have ever had... except for notepad. Although new versions of Notepad have came and gone, none have increased bloat in any way.

I commend MS for taking this unix approach to text editors. They knew all along that people would use it to edit text and only to edit text. They left all the bloated features to programs such as Office where the features are neccessary and improve the product.

notepad, bloat, and unix philosophies (2)

Jeremy Erwin (2054) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773813)

MS notepad also follows the not so commendable philosophy of limiting file sizes to 64KB. (I suppose that this might be useful in encouraging code readability-- as long source code files might be harder to maintain, but this restraint seems analogous to bondage and domination languages (Pascal, etc).)

As for the unix "philosophy"-- well, it's been dead for some time. IMHO, Perl is much preferable to awk, sed, etc... However, who am I to criticize your (obviously well thought out) decision to use traditional posix/unix tools in a MS Windows environment.

Re:notepad, bloat, and unix philosophies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773998)

Of course Notepad has a filesize limit of 32KiB because that is the limit contained in an edit control on Win95/98 and maybe ME. NT/2000/XP does not have such a limit.

However, it is dog slow as it tries to read an entire file into memory in one go.

Re:VIm is dog shit! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773297)

you are a nigger. go visit some gaysex channel and get a wank on some porn offered by some other homo. you are a worthless nigger - hush back into the hole you crawled out.

ViM Author has seen the light (-1, Troll)

cscx (541332) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773284)

This is taken from http://www.rons.net.cn/english/FSM/vim [rons.net.cn] , the link in the original article. I find it astounding that /. would link to this "blasphmous" piece of work. It's nice that he's shown that helping poor African orphans in Uganda will never been achieved by GNU. Here are a few of his ideas:

I prefer to give users much freedom in using the Vim source code. The main reason to add restrictions is to avoid what happened to Elvis some time ago: someone took the Elvis source code, added a few nice Windows GUI things, and started selling it. Since those changes were not available as source code and most of that editor was still the original Elvis code, that didn't sound fair. Not only because people have to pay one guy for software that someone else made, but also because the author refused to publish the modified source code and allow others to further improve it. That's why I added the restriction that the source code of modifications must be made available to me. That still leaves room for a company to make a modified version of Vim and negotiate with me if their changes must be made public or not. This gives me the right to decide what happens with the software I created.

Why not use the GNU GPL?

The GNU General Public Licence (GPL) is more restrictive. Although it claims to ascertain the freedom of software, it restricts the changes you can make. That is, you can make changes, but when you distribute the modified software, you must make the modified sources available as well. Thus people are not free to keep these changes to themselves. I would say this in fact restricts your freedom. On the other hand, allowing anybody to make changes and keep those changes a secret, even though they profit from the part of the program that wasn't changed, also doesn't sound fair. That's why I decided to add the condition that the changes must be made available to me. I can then decide that these changes are useful for most people, and include them in Vim. Or decide that these changes have only a very small audience, and allow a company to make a bit of money from their work. After all, if the source code of a program must be freely available, it is quite difficult to require users to pay money and make a living out of your work. I also don't agree with the idea that all software should be free and open-source. All people working on free software that I know somehow make a living out of commercial software, either with a full-time job or by studying to get a job later. Without commercial software, how would these people make a living? I think that free, open-source software and commercial software will co-exist. Most commercial software cannot be open-source, because a company would lose its advantage over competitors. Creating source code is very expensive, and a company would not want to allow others to get the results for free. Since software patents and copyrights are a very weak protection, keeping the source code a secret is still the best choice in most situations. Unfortunately, this means that you are not able to learn from how commercial software was implemented, or add a feature or fix a bug in the program you bought. A solution can be making most of the program open-source, and keeping a small but essential part a secret.

Re:ViM Author has seen the light (2, Interesting)

Ace Rimmer (179561) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773324)

About GNU GPL: I don't understand this fully. If you are an author of some code you can always dual-licence it and negotate with a commercial company to pay you for software you had developed (if they want keep it closed). The problem might be a larger number of contributors - you'd have to ask them if they agree with dual-licencing their contributions and pay them off (or exclude/reimplement their code). But I don't see how this changes with BM's licence (source must be available to me) - he might have the source but it'd be unfair to sell someone else's work anyway.

Note that what I said above sais nothing about his decision. Charityware is a nice idea!

Re:ViM Author has seen the light (0, Offtopic)

uchian (454825) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773493)

Charityware is a nice idea!

Only trouble is, I've got this image in my head now that won't go away - all those orphans in Uganda, each with their very own copy of Vim on floppy disk, looking around for a computer to install it on...

Re:ViM Author has seen the light (1)

r0ckflite (63420) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773374)

It seems to me that everybody who likes 'most' of the GPL do so because they want to distribute source but they want the option of making money off it at the same time. Kinda having your cake and eating it too.

IMHO, once you accept mods from people who are working for free, then you are morally obligated not to take their code, make other mods and sell it. Sure a company might add some cool new code that they think gives them the right to make money off the code, but if I wrote the 'paste' feature for VIM (I didn't) then paste should be disabled in the version they sell.

Oh well, my 2 cents worth.

Re:ViM Author has seen the light (5, Insightful)

Carl (12719) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773383)

The charity-ware is a nice idea. It does build awareness. Very, very, nice.

But he doesn't seem to get the real idea behind Free Software and the GPL.

The GNU General Public Licence (GPL) is more restrictive. Although it claims to ascertain the freedom of software, it restricts the changes you can make. That is, you can make changes, but when you distribute the modified software, you must make the modified sources available as well. Thus people are not free to keep these changes to themselves. I would say this in fact restricts your freedom. On the other hand, allowing anybody to make changes and keep those changes a secret, even though they profit from the part of the program that wasn't changed, also doesn't sound fair. That's why I decided to add the condition that the changes must be made available to me. I can then decide that these changes are useful for most people, and include them in Vim. Or decide that these changes have only a very small audience, and allow a company to make a bit of money from their work. After all, if the source code of a program must be freely available, it is quite difficult to require users to pay money and make a living out of your work.

With the GPL everybody is equal. If you make a little modification to a GPLed program and distribute that to your friends your friends can ask you for the source of the program and your modifications. But that does not mean anybody else can come in and demand all your modifications to their program. But with his license he gets far more power then anybody else that works on VIM. That might seem fair now since he has done a lot (a very lot) of work on it. But this may come back and hunt you after 20 years when someone else is maintaining (a fork) of the program, since for example Bram doesn't like to maintain it anymore, and he suddenly demands that all changes are handed over to him again.

Although respecting peoples privacy is not a very strong requirement for free software it does seem strange that a license that gives the original author more rights then any other authors can be considered Free Software. I really like the fact that the GPL gives alll contributors equal powers and the fact that it only forces you to play nice with people you actually distribute copies to. Having some god like person that can always demand all source code that I changed doesn't sound very free.

I do appreciate his idea that it is unfair that someone can close down the source code and profit from the fact that most the code was free and not sharing improvements is unsocial. But appointing one person to make the "right" decissions what parts of "my" code should be handed over to him doesn't sound fair either. IMHO making everybody equal by using the GPL and giving everybody (including the original maintainer) the same rights or by using the simple MIT/Modern BSD license and risking that someone/everyone closes down the source seems more fair.

Re:ViM Author has seen the light (1)

Syberghost (10557) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773983)

With the GPL everybody is equal.

Whereas, in the real world...

Re:ViM Author has seen the light (1)

Stinking Pig (45860) | more than 12 years ago | (#2774030)

The license clearly delineates a maintainer role and specifies that Bram is currently that maintainer. When he gets tired of it, last responsibility is to hand off to another. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? And the model has grown this way because:

a) rule by committee typically doesn't work as well as having a leader or two. A well-chosen committee is great for bringing out all the angles to an issue so that the leader can make an informed decision, but making all the decisions by vote slows down the process and can create dissension among the members who 'lost' the vote. Having one person act as the decision gatekeeper with a "the buck stops here" responsibility level seems to work well for software projects. /. readers welcome to insert all sorts of inappropriate analogies here.

and b), there aren't typically a lot of people who care enough about a project to take full responsibility for it. There may be a lot of people interested in patching it to scratch their own itch, but who wants to own or co-own the source tree? Patch integration, commenting, mailing-list moderation, evaluating the latest whiz-bang proposal to rewrite everything from scratch so you can support some buzzword?

"But appointing one person to make the "right" decissions what parts of "my" code should be handed over to him doesn't sound fair either."

I don't believe that's what the license says...
"If you distribute a modified version of Vim, you are encouraged to send the
maintainer a copy, including the source code. Or make it available to the
maintainer through ftp; let him know where it can be found. If the number of
changes is small (e.g., a modified Makefile) e-mailing the diffs will do.
When the maintainer asks for it (in any way) you must make your changes,
including source code, available to him.

The maintainer reserves the right to include any changes in the official
version of Vim. This is negotiable. You are not allowed to distribute a
modified version of Vim when you are not willing to make the source code
available to the maintainer."

Re:ViM Author reperesents darkness (2, Insightful)

Penrod Pooch (466103) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773408)

How come people constantly fail to "get" the GPL? It is designed to give users maximum amount of freedom, it does not take any special steps to give the author a special status. I like this, but I can see how people who don't really care about free software, but rather does it so they can take away users freedom once thay have people locked in don't like it.

Re:ViM Author reperesents darkness (2)

Syberghost (10557) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773994)

How come people constantly fail to "get" the GPL?

How come FSF people constantly assume that anybody who doesn't agree with the GPL doesn't understand it?

I thought the "scientific inevitability" of the dialectic was a fad that had safely passed.

Re:ViM Author has seen the light (2, Insightful)

ichimunki (194887) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773439)

A recent thread on the debian-legal list indicates to me that Bram doesn't quite get the whole idea behind free software. A number of Debian users are questioning whether the VIM license is in fact free-- it has a fairly noxious clause about making changes available to the original author. This sort of thing just may not be appropriate in some circumstances. I also think that Bram is a generous, giving, intelligent person who wouldn't go apeshit over infractions that had good reason or were not of true import.

But, imho, he completely misunderstands the GPL, which applies *only* to distribution to external entities and requires *only* that you distribute source code with executables when you do that. His license is intended to give the original author (and only the original author) some few extra rights-- mostly the ability to harvest changes from forks out in the world. But I think his changes are unnecessary, vague, and the world doesn't need another open-source-ish license-- no matter how well intended.

Re:ViM Author has seen the light (1)

Tom7 (102298) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773954)

Yes, you are right. There are a couple of reasonable criticisms that one can make of the GPL, depending on one's selfishness and other factors, but this definitely isn't one of them. Someone needs to straighten this feller out!

Anyways, emacs rulz. ;)

I must pee, in a cup, a cup of pee, for you and me (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773288)

who wants a cup of it to drink?

a toast, to Katz.

glug glug gluG gluG glUG glUG gLUG gLUG GLUG GLUG

MMMMMM... that's the ticket!

well i never (0)

metrix007 (200091) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773295)

i used to hat vim, still do, no different from vi that i notice, but vi is just so quick for me, i still have to use pico to paste text.

$ rm /usr/bin/vi (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773299)

JOE RULES
VI suxors coxors

$ rm /usr/bin/vi

Its the best thing you can ever do

Re:$ rm /usr/bin/vi (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773310)

D0o0o0o0o0od!!!

W0t j00 j45+ d1d 15 n44t k3w1. +Ry d15:

# rpm -e vim

W444444y b3++3R, d00d! LOLOLOLOL!

Re:$ rm /usr/bin/vi (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773321)

you retarded nigger homo. get a fucking life and some clue...

Re:$ rm /usr/bin/vi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773876)

Friends don't let friends use joe.

Vi Improved (4, Informative)

oops (41598) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773314)

Vi Improved [amazon.com] by Steve Oualline is an excellent book if you want to discover Vim (as opposed to vi)

My favorite editor: Hear me out... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773317)

OK, this is not flamebait, nor am I trolling:
An easy to use editor, which I use daily, is a Pico clone, which is open-sourced. It's called Nano, Linkage here (http://www.nano-editor.org) [nano-editor.org] . It operates as simply as Pine, and it has a smaller footprint than Pico. (Yes, I do mean it's simplicity is like Pine, and Pico is the Pine editor, if you did not know.) Try NANO!!! Get the source, and do ./configure, make, make install. Easy!

Re:My favorite editor: Hear me out... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773328)

pico into your arso you nigger, you sound like that faggot miguel de icaza (also known as our linux usersgroup mexican toilet cleaner) ... got get a real life homo....

Wow (5, Funny)

dimator (71399) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773339)

Bram Moolenaar studied electrical engineering at the Technical University of Delft and graduated in 1985 on a multi-processor Unix architecture.

Could the school not afford a proper stage for the ceremony?

donate your AIDS do Africa (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773343)

AIDS is the best thing since sliced bread. It is a good way to control the Niggers over in Niggerland.

There are too many niggers and fags. AIDS cleans up the mess. What, me worry? Hell no. I ain't a nigger and I ain't a fag.

Bye-bye Negroes, Bye-bye

Re:donate your AIDS do Africa (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773398)

Wow, judging from your many posts attached to this story, you appear to find the word "nigger" a rip roaring knee slapping laugh riot. How old are you, 12?

Here's some other words you probably find hilarious: fart, piss, shit.

Grow the fuck up, moron.

Re:donate your AIDS do Africa (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773453)

oh and you took so much care and think that there is only one person using that word 'nigger' all the time ? well you seem to be a nigger to go out and fuck your sister or whatever.

Re:donate your AIDS do Africa (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773597)

I can tell based on your unbelievably uneducated writing style that all the "nigger" posts belong to one person.
And by the way, who the fuck marked MY post a flamebait? Off-topic, sure, but flamebait?

A slicker site (4, Informative)

dimator (71399) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773349)

www.vim.org [vim.org] is cool and all, but check out vim.sf.net [sf.net] for a site with all kinds of Vim resources and docs.

Interesting bits from the page (5, Interesting)

f00zbll (526151) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773351)

I found this particular paragraph interesting and shows Bram took a lot of care designing VIM.

The blocks with text lines are stored in the swap file without a specific ordering. If the blocks were ordered, inserting a block halfway into the file would require all remaining blocks to be shifted, which is very slow. To be able to find a line by its number, index blocks are used. An index block contains a list that tells which line is in which block. If a file is big, this list doesn't fit in a single block. It is then split over several blocks, and another index block is made to refer to these index blocks. This forms a balanced tree of index blocks, with the text blocks as the leaves. This construction has proven to be very reliable and efficient.

There are several text/html editors and IDE's that would benefit from this type of swap file. I'm sure everyone could list atleast 2-4 programs that have a difficult time handling large files. It's no wonder VIM is able to handle really large files and still respond quickly.

Hats off to bram!

Re:Interesting bits from the page (2)

Omnifarious (11933) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773611)

Why not just store each line in a file named with the line's number and let the filesystem do all that ugly work for you? Oh, wait, I guess reiserfs [namesys.com] isn't that ubiquitous yet.

Seriously, there are good filesystems that do all of this balanced block tree work for you, and you should take advantage of them. IMHO, all filesystems should efficiently handle gigantic directories and tons of small files.

Re:Interesting bits from the page (2)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773978)

Are you going to port The One True Filesystem to every OS that is supprted by your editor? Can you enforce its universal adoption?

I get your point, but it's VIM ferchrissakes!

Re:Interesting bits from the page (2)

zCyl (14362) | more than 12 years ago | (#2774000)

Why not just store each line in a file named with the line's number and let the filesystem do all that ugly work for you? Oh, wait, I guess reiserfs [namesys.com] isn't that ubiquitous yet.

And when someone rm's line 213?

I'm all for integrating things into the filesystem, but this is more useful in the case of enabling interaction between the user and the program, or between that program and other programs. There's nothing wrong with a program-specific single-file format for internal state data. This makes it easier to design intelligent caching algorithms, because it can be assumed that if a file is being accessed, more of that file will probably be wanted. If a directory is accessed, in the common case it is unlikely that most of the files will be accessed, so no caching algorithm could ever predictively load data.

Re:Interesting bits from the page (2)

Syberghost (10557) | more than 12 years ago | (#2774002)

Why not just store each line in a file named with the line's number and let the filesystem do all that ugly work for you? Oh, wait, I guess reiserfs [namesys.com] isn't that ubiquitous yet.

Wow, you think a lightweight text editor should be bound to a specific filesystem?

While you're at it, how about if he re-writes it in hand-optimized Alpha assembly code, so it only runs on one processor too?

Re:Interesting bits from the page (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773881)

I found this particular paragraph interesting and shows Bram took a lot of care designing VIM.

Thats one of the more interesting parts i found in that article too. In fact ive written a text editor by myself (on the Atari ST) and used a very similar approach. I used also blocks of fixed size which could contain an arbitrary number of lines, where each block info contained the number of lines in this block and the offsets to each line in this block (and of course the number of used bytes). These blocks were organized in a linked list. This scheme was fast and efficient when storing and reading, and it would have allowed swapping out the blocks to disk (which i didn't do). Because i used a linked list inserting a block was also easy because only a few pointers needed to be changed.

But it surely wasn't as efficient as what Bram has done in vim, since i had a hard limit on line length (mainly because the current line was copied for editing in a second buffer), and search and replace was awfully slow sometimes. Searching was fast, but replacing cost a lot of time (because it was done on the line buffer and not in the main buffer which resulted in a lot of copy and memmove operations when writing back the current line). And since i didn't swap the blocks to disk my editor was limited in the editable file size by the free memory. So kudos to Bram for his well planned design! If i ever write an editor again (and who knows, maybe i will) i will be inspired by his memory organization scheme.

Dirk
--
(who doesn't care enough about /. to get an account so im still an AC)

VIrus (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773352)

Vi is short for VIrus
You don't want a virus do you?

Vim, nedit, joe, jed, mead, slead, bed suck fred (-1, Offtopic)

badl (546552) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773356)

You just can't beat KATE!

VIrus (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773362)

VI is short for VIrus
You don't want a virus do you?

Vi vs. Emacs (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773372)

Many editor flamefests break out between users of Vi vs. users of Emacs. The fact of it all, however, is that Vi is absolutely more powerful than Emacs is, and Vim is even more featureful than Vi is.

The bottom line is, people who actually prefer Emacs over Vi are mindless simpletons who cannot grasp the vi command set, or are unwilling to take the time to learn it.

Admittedly, vi has a rather steep learning curve, but take the time to learn it, and your hard efforts will be rewarded for it.

Re:Vi vs. Emacs (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773645)

How the _FUCK_ is the parent post flamebait, you cocksucking fucking motherfucking god damn jesus christ'n motherfucking asshole moderators?

These terrorist, cowardly, vile acts shall be corrected in meta-moderation, you cocksmoking motherfucking bitch sucking jesus christ'n shit eating whores.

VILE! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773392)

Theres a version of vi called VILE
Describes it perfectly!

Nazi frogmen! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773415)

Nazi frogmen [svlug.org]

Goatse link (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773423)

You must have one And here it is [goatse.cx]

LotE - Lord of the Editors (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773447)

Three Editors for the VIM Kings under the sky,
Seven for the DWARF-lords in their halls of debug information,
Nine for the UNIX Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark One Microsoft Way,
In the land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
One Editor to rule them all, One Editor to Find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them
In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.

You suck. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773857)

No fucking text.

Re:LotE - Lord of the Editors (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773858)

SHUTUP! Shutup, shutup, shutup!

fundamental.... (2, Insightful)

vvikram (260064) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773476)

we seldom realize how many people use editors [like vim] day in and out and how integral its become......

i read the article fully and it seems an incredibly complex piece of work , one which seems to function perfectly too . imho, writing a full-fledged editor like that is one p.i.t.a almost comparable to maintaining kernel trees:)

also from the interview at least, what comes across is a serious, single-minded dedication to making _proper_ stable software.

great work bram. vim rulez

vv

Newest MS Memo (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773550)

From: Brian Valentine
Sent: Wed 12/26/2001 7:14 PM
To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
Subject: Me again -- Linux updates

Microsoft Confidential -- Do not print, copy or forward this email and do not share this email with anyone out side the company. For internal use only!

Now that the whole world knows we are taking Linux seriously based on the leak of my last email... Wait -- stop there -- since when did they think we weren't taking them serious?!? Did they think we are not going to build the best products possible? Did they think we were going to just be fat, dumb and happy and not continue to win business? Did they think we were going to forget about taking care of our customers??? NO!

Who do they think we are? We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world -- of course we will take any non-Windows OS serious. The thing about the leak that made me mad was not that we would legitimize Linux, etc. it's good in some places, we are better, and it's not very good in other places and we are much better. but they are a competitor and we will compete. What made me mad was that my friends -- some of you and some of our customer's names where in that email and then available for all to see on the web. That made me mad. I want you selling and supporting our products -- not having to take random calls, emails, etc from the press and others and I know what out customers share with us is in confidence that we will keep it internal. I have no problem any random Linux person sending me hate mail, junk mail, adding my email address to every list server out there, you name it -- that comes with the job, but I don't want my friends to have to deal with the same junk.

Ok, Ok, enough of that. On to some new things we are doing for you around Linux.

Linux is out there in some of your accounts and you may not know it. The ground up nature of how Linux is introduced into our accounts means that we need to modify our traditional approaches of finding out about Linux in our customer base. We have to be more hands on and dig deeper in your accounts!

Many Linux projects in CAS and Depth accounts happen below the IT Manager/BDM level. It's crucial that you get out there with your TSP/SE/MCS folks and do actual walkthroughs in your accounts. Ask open ended questions; find out what they're evaluating for both key projects as well as smaller, more tactical projects. Ask about the 'connector' pieces -- you'll potentially find Linux in these areas. This is a great way to not only find out about Linux, but also other IT projects that may include Novell, Sun, Oracle, and other competitors! If you are struggling with how to do this, then do the simple exercise of walking through you accounts data centers and when you see a Sun or IBM machine, ask what it's used for, if you see some strange servers you don't what they are doing -- ask what is running on them and take notes. I would like to challenge each of you to have these conversations with your customer as soon as you can. Oh -- and you can bet anyplace IBM is talking to your accounts, they are saying Linux and switching to higher end non-pc systems. With the current economic times we are living in, just about every customer is looking into how they can get rid of those over-priced, legacy Unix systems and ride the PC economics wave. We need to be there when they are making these decisions and prove to them the Windows platform is the best platform for them across any aspect of their business.

I want you to know just how seriously we're taking Linux here in Redmond. We're investing major efforts in creating easier processes and resources for you.

I. To start, we have expanded the in-field Linux Competitive Champ program and renamed it "Linux Insiders". Like the other TSP Champs programs, it has been changed to use the new TSP role-based database and will be ready to roll out with its new name at the Envision event in January. It is up to each regional TSP manager to select or assign each member; therefore, anyone wishing to become an Insider should see their manager to be signed up. Much like the support "communities" that define the Linux experience, the FCS team will strive to build a community to cooperate in winning business against Linux. By building a virtual team of field staff and corporate resources, we will enable the field to have one place to go for communication and competitive information. The Linux Insiders will have access to a centralized web site where personnel can request help, route issues, and share best practices that the entire field can leverage. This site, a restricted sub-set of the http://infoweb/linux site, will be accessible by all "Insiders," for items such as SLT reviews, web-casts, notes from conference calls and other sensitive information. If you have questions about the Insiders program, please email Kelly File of the FCS
team at mailto:kellyfi.

II. Second, I'd like to announce the new Linux/UNIX escalation process that is being headed up by [MS Enterprise & Partner Group VP] Charles Stevens' organization. Here's how it works:

a. First, make sure you check out the latest additions to the Web sites: http://infoweb/linux and http://infoweb/sundown.

b. If you can't find what you need there, involve your local expert: the district Linux or Sun Insider (TSPs with Linux and/or Sun competitive responsibilities). These Insiders have the expertise and the resources to help you win. You can find your local Insider on the web sites.

c. If you still need help for Global, Strategic and Major accounts, the Linux/Sun Insiders (or your GM) can escalate the issue to the new corporate Linux/Unix Escalation Team. Let me emphasize that you need to work with your local Insider or your GM because they have direct access to this escalation team. The team is committed to provide an initial response within one working day. These guys have in-depth UNIX industry backgrounds and have been winning against UNIX and Linux. The product development organization will be working closely with this team to make sure you have all the resources you need.

III. Finally, we're working hard to debunk the myths around Linux. We're approaching this in waves.

a. The first wave will attack the perception that Linux is free. To that effect, we'll have an independent analysis commissioned by DH Brown looking at a very popular topic these days -- server consolidation. If you're not seeing this yet, you probably will. IBM is proposing to use Mainframes running many virtual instances of Linux as a low cost server consolidation scenario for file and print, messaging, and database activities. The DH Brown report will be customer ready and will help your customer understand just how competitive Microsoft is in this arena.

b. The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us. ETA for this tool is in May and it will be a great tool to help you sell the value of Windows solutions over Linux. If you have any questions on this study, please email the mailto:lnxteam alias.

You can expect us to turn up the volume on winning against Linux, as well as IBM. There is some great cross team work between PMG, SMG, and CMG marketing groups to ensure we're addressing your needs and believe me, that feedback goes directly to me and the senior leadership team so we can build better products to help you win against Linux!

Thanks,

Brian

Microsoft Confidential -- Do not print, copy or forward this email and do not share this email with anyone out side the company. For internal use only!

PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! And if you have forward rules that have forwarded this message, then perhaps you should think again about forwarding internal email with those rules. I want to give you folks all the information I can in a very open way. If we continue to have bad apples or careless people out there, I will not be able to help you by sending this kind of information!

Totally ON topic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2773625)

I was installing vim for dos 16, had some problems, and thought "damnit, let me relax a bit with slashdot". And what do I find?

Anyway, does anyone know why syntax highlighting doesn't work with vim for dos 16 (I have my reason for using this version) and is it supposed to work at all with that version of vim?

The Key to Vim (2, Flamebait)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#2773929)

OK, Vim is a solid, impressive piece of work. I use it every day. And Moolenaar rocks, both for his software work and the way he's used it to bring attention to his work in Uganda.

But let's not misunderstand why Vim is so popular. It has nothing to do with "keeping your hands on the keyboard." Nowadays a hacker needs a robust, reliable, scriptable, GUI-aware text editor, preferably cross-platform. There's lots of wanabees, but only two serious contenders: EMACS and Vim.

Now, neither EMACS nor Vim is really a good GUI program. The original design of both was for text terminals. (Some minor Vi features only make sense on the budget-priced Lear-Siegler ADM3a terminal that was standard at Berkeley when Bill Joy was there; I gather RMS used something rather more baroque.) That means lots of "editing modes" -- exactly the sort of thing you do not want in a GUI environment. I suppose EMACS is rather less modal than vi/vim, but it's still pretty bad.

I can live with it, mainly because I've had the basic Vi command set memorized longer than most slashdotters have been alive. But I still find it hard to change my mental gears every time I go from Vim to a modeless editor -- even the text box I'm using now. Pressing the ESC key in the wrong context can have nasty consequences!

Re:The Key to Vim (2)

dangermouse (2242) | more than 12 years ago | (#2774010)

Funny, one of the things I really like about Vim is the modal editing. I do want to keep my hands on the keyboard... reaching for a mouse drives me nuts in "GUI editors". Keep in mind that the whole point of a text editor is text input, and that's what God made keyboards for.

In fact, the less I have to reach for my mouse to perform common tasks in a GUI, the better, I say. Don't you Alt-Tab between windows, use some key combo to switch desktops, etc? Why should it be different within your text editor? Providing menus for the editor's functions while leaving the keyboard controls in place makes sense, and that's what Vim does.

I agree that there's room for improvement, GUI-wise, but my thoughts are more along the lines of triggering mode switches with mouse input, not getting rid of mode switches. %-)

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